BS: American English usages taking over Brit

Subject: RE: BS: American English usages taking over Brit
From: Uncle_DaveO
Date: 04 Nov 09 - 09:45 AM

S&R asked:

What country started out as a democracy?

I don't know which country(s) started out as democracies (and I doubt that any modern states did), but I know that the United States emphatically did not.   The United States was and is a federation of republics, run as a sort of uber-republic. A democracy would have to be tiny, like the ancient Greek City-States, or town-meeting towns, in order to have the whole citizen body participate in government.

Dave Oesterreich

Subject: RE: BS: American English usages taking over Brit
From: meself
Date: 04 Nov 09 - 11:02 AM

Re: proven. Commonly used in Canada (a Commonwealth country!).

Subject: RE: BS: American English usages taking over Brit
From: GUEST,Allan Connochie
Date: 04 Nov 09 - 06:33 PM

"confusion when talking about a country made up of different countries"

Aye you are right. Many non-Brits do get confused when talking about England and Great Britain (or the UK) and I suppose it is because a big majority of British people are English hence it is easy to think that British = English. To be quite frank you come across British people who don't really know the difference between GB and the UK :-)

Subject: RE: BS: American English usages taking over Brit
From: CarolC
Date: 04 Nov 09 - 10:42 PM

While it's true that the US has never practiced direct democracy, it was started as a representative democracy (and a constitutional republe - these two things are not mutually exclusive), which is a form of democracy.

I don't automatically think "English" when I think of the UK. I think English, Scottish, Welsh, Northern Irish. (And there are other parts as well? Some of the islands? Cornwall?) But I definitely am not very knowledgeable about the different political realities in the various parts of the UK over the centuries.

Subject: RE: BS: American English usages taking over Brit
From: CarolC
Date: 04 Nov 09 - 10:44 PM

* Correction: constitutional republic

Subject: RE: BS: American English usages taking over Brit
From: ard mhacha
Date: 05 Nov 09 - 11:03 AM

Corredtion Carol, when abroad ask a Scot, Welsh person or even the Irish from the wee six their nationality and they wont answer British.

Subject: RE: BS: American English usages taking over Brit
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 05 Nov 09 - 01:00 PM

In sporting events, when they are winning, it's a British victory in the media. But lose and they are Scottish, Welsh or Irish.

Subject: RE: BS: American English usages taking over Brit
From: Rowan
Date: 05 Nov 09 - 04:20 PM

What country started out as a democracy?

I suppose it depends on how one defines "country".

When our continent was known on maps as "Australia del Spiritu Sancto" (I think I've got the Spanish correct) I doubt it could be called a country, as it had several hundred quite different groups of people living there, with little or no contact between many of the groups. When it was colonised by the British (most, but not all, of whom were English) its eastern seaboard was called New South Wales until separate colonies were established.

Matthew Flinders was the first to 'formally 'give the continent the name "Australia" after he'd completed its circumnavigation (1803, from recollection, when the British Crown was still very much in control over the colonial apparatus, Rum Rebellion notwithstanding) and mapped almost all its periphery but it wasn't until the late 19th century that large groups of people started referring to themselves as Australians. Government by 'relatively' democratic processes was in place in all the colonies occupying the country by that time and, when they were formally federated into the Commonwealth of Australia (New Year's Day, 1901) it was as a result of democratic processes

Perhaps we qualify.

Cheers, Rowan

Subject: RE: BS: American English usages taking over Brit
From: GUEST,Allan Connochie
Date: 05 Nov 09 - 05:46 PM

I didn't mean to suggest that Carol doesn't know the difference between the main constituent parts of the UK. Although undoubtedly there are many non-Brits who quite understandably don't know. I was really trying to help by pointing out that one can't presume that there is a single form of British Standard English or that English terms like "public school" would mean the same throughout Britain. There isn't and they don't. Without going into dialects of Scots themselves which is a seperate matter- the form of Standard English spoken in Scotland is generally called Scottish Standard English and has many differences from what we in Scotland sometimes call English Standard English. So English, American English and Scottish English all exist but there is not really a 'British English' as such.

What forms the UK is more complicated than first appears. Basically the UK proper consists of Great Britain and Northern Ireland. Prior to the UK - Great Britain itself was formed by the 1707 Union of the Scottish and English kingdoms. Wales at that time was officially (if not popularly) regarded as being part of the English kingdom. Hence it is not represented on the Union Flag. In modern times Wales is again officially recognised as a seperate entity from England and a constituent part of GB. Cornwall has a definite identity which seperates it from other English counties but it is in fact a county of England. The likes of the Channel Islands and the Isle of Man are crown dependencies hence are linked to the UK, and the UK represents them in foreign affairs, but they are not actually part of the UK.

Like I said it is complicated :-)

Subject: RE: BS: American English usages taking over Brit
From: meself
Date: 06 Nov 09 - 01:03 AM

Okay - since we're on the subject - here's a question: is there a politically-correct term that encompasses what I believe was once (and perhaps still is?) known as the "British Isles" - including the whole of Ireland, north and south? Occasionally, I find I want to refer to the whole kit and caboodle collectively (trust me; I have my reasons), but I'm unsure of how to do that.

Subject: RE: BS: American English usages taking over Brit
From: GUEST,Allan Connochie
Date: 06 Nov 09 - 02:20 AM

For the vast majority of people here the collective term for the British Isles is the British Isles and of course in truth it always has been. There are now some Irish who dislike this term and look for alternatives. I 'suppose' they dislike the term for political reasons and because they think it implies that the islands belong to Britain but of course that is not so. The term Pretanic or Britannic isles etc was coined in "whenever BC" millenia before the formation of Great Britain and before the largest island itself was even called Britain. So in realty it is akin to some Canadians suddenly disliking the term North American Continent because the term America is already part of their neighbour's name.

Subject: RE: BS: American English usages taking over Brit
From: Hrothgar
Date: 06 Nov 09 - 02:54 AM

Statistically, we don't have a chance. Of all the people in the world who speak some form of English as a first language, more than half are Americak (or, to be more particular, live in the USA).

Subject: RE: BS: American English usages taking over Brit
From: CarolC
Date: 06 Nov 09 - 03:08 AM

This may sound strange, but until this discussion here in this thread, I didn't think the term "British" had any current validity. For some reason, I had gotten the impression that the correct term was UK and that "Britain" was obsolete. I didn't realize they were both current, and that they each referred to something different. Learn something new every day.

Subject: RE: BS: American English usages taking over Brit
From: GUEST,Allan Connochie
Date: 06 Nov 09 - 06:41 AM

The correct formal term for the state is the UK and has been so for several centuries. In full it is the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland. However more often than not this is shortened to Great Britain or just Britain. There is no term like United Kingdomers and we have British Citizens on our passports so in that sense at least British is till the common and correct term when talking about nationality though again it gets more complicated than that as if you ask people what their nationality is they may well self identify as Scottish or English etc.

In the mid 20thC many Scots would have been quite at ease to say they were equally Scottish and British but that has changed. In general polls tend to show that about a third of Scots regard themselves as Scots and not British. Nearly another third regard themsleves as more Scottish than British. About a quarter say they are equally Scottish and British and quite a small minority say they are more British than Scottish or only British. The last two categories account for less than 10% of people living in Scotland and probably relate to incomers from other parts of the UK rather than those who were born Scots.

It is interesting stuff. Of course if pressed many of those insisting they are not British at all would admit they are making a political point more than anything else. Even if the UK broke up we would all still be British (both geographically and culturally) in the way that Swedes are Scandinavian or Canadians are North Americans.

Subject: RE: BS: American English usages taking over Brit
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 06 Nov 09 - 05:00 PM

Northern Ireland became an entity in 1921, so "United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland" has not been the formal term "for several centuries."

Apparently the collective term for the islands must be- UK and the Republic of Ireland.

Subject: RE: BS: American English usages taking over Brit
From: Acorn4
Date: 07 Nov 09 - 04:19 AM

When I was at school, "big" was an adjective.

Some bright spark invented to "big up" somewthing and the rest of the world thinks it has to copy.

Subject: RE: BS: American English usages taking over Brit
From: Acorn4
Date: 07 Nov 09 - 04:22 AM

Sorry, "something" - typing mistake NOT spelling mistake - there is a difference!

Subject: RE: BS: American English usages taking over Brit
From: GUEST,Allan Connochie
Date: 07 Nov 09 - 01:52 PM

"United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland hasn't been the formal term for centuries"

Of course it hasn't and no-one said it had been. What I said was the formal term for the state was the UK and had been for several centuries. Prior to the 1920s, and since 1801, the full title was the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland. The only difference since the 1920s has been the change affecting Ireland. The term is still the UK though - as it ws prior to the 1920s.

Of course the collective term for the islands isn't the UK and Republic of Ireland. That is simply a 'partial' list of the political entities that constitute the British Isles. As I said the term British Isles long predates the names UK, Ireland, England, Scotland, Man or whatever. It is the only collective term that would be recognised by the vast majority of people in these islands. I have seen other suggetions one example being the "Atlantic Islands" but really if you used that virtually no-one would know what on earth was being talked about.

Subject: RE: BS: American English usages taking over Brit
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 07 Nov 09 - 02:56 PM

"The formal correct term for the state is the UK and has been so for several centuries. In full it is the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland."

To those of us who need a short but clear name for the islands, UK and the Republic of Ireland is sufficient.

Never mind.

Subject: RE: BS: American English usages taking over Brit
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 07 Nov 09 - 03:34 PM

When James VI of Scotland became King James I of England the term "United Kingdoms" was coined. I've never been clear when it got switched to "United Kingdom". Following the Act of Union a hundred years later?

I'm rather surprised the older term hasn't been revived since devolution came along a few years ago.

Subject: RE: BS: American English usages taking over Brit
From: Bill D
Date: 07 Nov 09 - 05:25 PM

It is well to remember that in The United States of America (the official title),like Scotland, there are many people who identify more with their state or region than as 'Americans'..unless the country as a whole is threatened as it was in WWII.

There are many who, as with Scotland, would prefer to have even more 'independence'. They want their various laws, taxes, religions...etc... to reflect a particular cultural norm, and have little interest in 'what's best for the country as a whole'....thus, the current health care debate.

Subject: RE: BS: American English usages taking over Brit
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 07 Nov 09 - 05:49 PM

When it comes to heralth services there are a few differences within the various countries in the UK. For example in Scotland and Wales the devolved administrations have got rid of charges for presciptions that exist in England (and they'll be gone in Northern Ireland next year).

Are there states in the USA where they are planning to introduce a proper health service even if the Federal Government fals to do so?

Subject: RE: BS: American English usages taking over Brit
From: artbrooks
Date: 07 Nov 09 - 05:55 PM

If by "proper", you mean paid for by taxes, open to just about everyone, and with no fee at point of service, than no.

Subject: RE: BS: American English usages taking over Brit
From: GUEST,Allan Connochie
Date: 07 Nov 09 - 06:03 PM

James VI also used the term Great Britain but it was his personal use and didn't relate to any reality other than the normal geographic use to describe the island. The two kingdoms of Scotland and England remained seperate kingdoms who just happened to share a monarch. I don't know about his use of 'united kingdoms' but I would guess that he was simply talking about the various kingdoms under his control. Neither GB or the UK were any official titles for any state. In 1707 the united kingdom of Great Britain is brought into being but again the official name was GB with the UK part being descriptive. In 1801 on union with Ireland the official title of the state then had United Kingdom incorporated into it. I imagine 'united kingdoms' would be used originally because that was what it was 'seperate kingdoms united under a shared monarch' whereas later on the individual kingdoms of Scotland and England (and later Ireland) were replaced by a single kingdom.

I don't quite understand what you are meaning in regard to devolution as the various pre-union kingdoms have not been revived and we remain for the moment one single kingdom. The SNP position is that if they succesfully persuaded the Scottish people to opt for independence from the UK then the monarch would remain head of state and from that date of course Kingdom of Scotland would come back into existence.

What would be interesting is how would the rest of the UK react (ie would Northern Ireland and Wales remain firmly in the union) and what the name would be? Would it be the United Kingdom of England, Wales and Northern Ireland - or do you think they'd opt to retain Britain in the name?

Subject: RE: BS: American English usages taking over Brit
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 07 Nov 09 - 07:31 PM

I'd have thought that the Scot Nationalist posititon would be that, regardless of the political position and the link with England, Scotland was already a nation, as it always had been, and that the correct way of expressing this would be by referring to "the United Kingdoms".

As for what to call the rest of the present UK if Scotland pulls out, maybe they could call it "the United Kingdom of Southern Britain and Northern Ireland". Though since neither Wales nor Northern Ireland have ever been kingdoms, I'm not too sure that "United Kingdom" would be appropriate. But perhaps it'll be a republic by that time anyway.

Subject: RE: BS: American English usages taking over Brit
From: GUEST,Allan Connochie
Date: 08 Nov 09 - 04:05 AM

"Re- United Kingdoms"

I honestly can't recall ever hearing any Scot, whether nationalist or not, use the term 'United Kingdoms' to desribe anything relating to modern times. Likewise I'd imagine the vast majority of Scots regard Scotland as a nation whether they are nationalists or not. The fact is we are a single kingdom which is made up of several nations and countries - so usage of United Kingdom by Nats simply reflects the present reality.

Northern Ireland has never been a kingdom it is true but that doesn't stop the present name from being the United Kingdom. The UK in the official title reflects the union between the kingdoms of GB and Northern Ireland which was the successor to the 1801 union between GB and Ireland. Ireland of course was formerly a kingdom even if it was a forced one. When James VI of Scotland succeeded Elizabeth of England he not only became King of England but also became King of Ireland. I'm not 100% up on the English/Irish history but I think up until Henry VIII or so, Ireland was treated as a Lordship of the English monarch but he assumed Kingship of Ireland. I've maybe got the wrong English monarch there but I think the time period is close.

The point about the republican thing is interesting. The monarchy is still relatively popular. Within the SNP there are many Republicans but officially the party's position is monarchist. I think if they succeeded in their goal for independence then it wouldn't be long before the constitutional question re the moanrchy came to the fore. It is two seperate issues of course and I take it putting the monarchy question on the back burner means they don't risk alienating monarchists.

I imagine we will get a better idea as to how Scots will progress during the next UK government's term. The situation within Scotland is a strange one in that at Hollyrood level the most bitter political enemies are the SNP and Labour - however at UK level the Tories are much more unpopular in Scotland. So if we get a Tory UK government going head to head against an SNP administration in Edinburgh then politically within Scotland I can see only one winner there and it wouldn't be David Cameron. Interestingly he's half Scottish but like Tony Blair before him doesn't push his Scottish connections at all.

Subject: RE: BS: American English usages taking over Brit
From: meself
Date: 08 Nov 09 - 11:31 AM

"To those of us who need a short but clear name for the islands, UK and the Republic of Ireland is sufficient."

Certainly clear enough - but a bit of a mouthful for my purposes. For instance, it seems a bit stilted to say something like, "Here's a tune you don't hear much around here, but it's popular in the UK and the Republic of Ireland." That's eleven syllables, and stresses unnecessarily the political distinctions, whereas "the British Isles" is a mere four syllables - but possibly blurs the political distinctions in a way that may be offensive to some of your listeners. I'm still not certain about that matter - GUEST Allan Connochie states that it SHOULD be acceptable - but hints that it may not be.

Furthermore, to state something like, "it's popular in the UK and the Republic of Ireland", implies certainty that it is popular in the Republic of Ireland specifically, along with the UK, while the speaker may not be that sure of where exactly the tune is popular, other than that it is popular in at least parts of the "British Isles".

Subject: RE: BS: American English usages taking over Brit
From: CarolC
Date: 08 Nov 09 - 11:50 AM

Could one say "Britain and Ireland" then?

Subject: RE: BS: American English usages taking over Brit
From: GUEST,Allan Connochie
Date: 08 Nov 09 - 06:55 PM

"Could one say Britain and Ireland then?"

One could - and to be fair it makes more sense than saying the 'UK and Republic of Ireland' which is simply a list of two of the political units in the islands. However it wouldn't really do as not all of the islands in the British Isles are part of Britain or Ireland. As I said the vast majority of people in these islands are happy with the existing and original term which predates all other more modern terms anyway. I suspect many who object to the name do so on the back of an incorrect assumption that by saying British Isles one is meaning the isles belong to Britain which of course is nonsense.

The British Isles were called that or a variation of that (Pretanike or Britannic) as far back as the 1st millenium BC. The two largest islands were called Albion and Hibernia. The Romans invaded Albion and secured all but the far north within the empire and named this Roman province Britannia. The name then took on as the name for the larger island itself and Albion faded into obscurity. Hence the larger island was named after the island group rather than the island group being named after the larger island. Albion remains in various forms. It is used poetically to describe England and of course the Gaelic name for Scotland (Alba) is thought to be derived from it.

The state of Great Britain didn't come into being until 1707 which is almost 2 millenia after the name British Isles - as well as about 600 years afeter the first Anglo-Norman invasions of Ireland. For the vast bulk of its existence the name British Isles would be looked on purely as a geographic term - and of course it still is a purely geographic term. Despite what some politically correct types like to think.

Subject: RE: BS: American English usages taking over Brit
From: ard mhacha
Date: 09 Nov 09 - 06:51 AM

Yes Carol one could say Britain and Ireland, I do.

Subject: RE: BS: American English usages taking over Brit
From: CarolC
Date: 09 Nov 09 - 11:54 AM

My brain hurts.

Subject: RE: BS: American English usages taking over Brit
From: GUEST,Steamin' Willie
Date: 09 Nov 09 - 01:02 PM

Turning nouns into verbs.

About as Yank as it gets........

Subject: RE: BS: American English usages taking over Brit
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 09 Nov 09 - 01:14 PM

Brit English has always turned nouns into verbs: many examples in Shax, e.g. "He out-Herods Herod"; "Grace me no Grace and Uncle me no Uncle"...

Subject: RE: BS: American English usages taking over Brit
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 09 Nov 09 - 02:07 PM

See Oxford English Dictionary- turning nouns into verbs is a pretty old practice.

How about- Republic of Ireland and those other people.

Subject: RE: BS: American English usages taking over Brit
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 09 Nov 09 - 02:35 PM

The Friendly Isles - united by a taste for irony.

Subject: RE: BS: American English usages taking over Brit
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 09 Nov 09 - 02:52 PM

Cook published a map of "The Friendly Isles" in 1777. Tonga has priority.
David Rumsey map collection. www.davidrumsey.com

Subject: RE: BS: American English usages taking over Brit
From: Bill D
Date: 09 Nov 09 - 03:13 PM

"all you folks who live on various sized islands near the coast of continental Europe."

*trying to come up with an acronym, but not having much luck*

Subject: RE: BS: American English usages taking over Brit
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 09 Nov 09 - 03:48 PM

How about United Superb Lands Of Towering-geniuses — abbreviated to Us Lot?

Subject: RE: BS: American English usages taking over Brit
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 09 Nov 09 - 05:06 PM

trying to come up with an acronym, but not having much luck

Therfe's always "The WISE Islands" - Welsh, Irish, Scottisdh, English. As ironic as "Friendly"...

Maybe we could extend the name Silly Islands to cover the entire archipelago. And drop the C.

Subject: RE: BS: American English usages taking over Brit
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 09 Nov 09 - 05:30 PM

Would the Scilians object?

Subject: RE: BS: American English usages taking over Brit
From: Penny S.
Date: 09 Nov 09 - 05:35 PM

Ah, but silly derives from "saelig" meaning holy, as all from Silly Sussex kno.

Penny

Subject: RE: BS: American English usages taking over Brit
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 09 Nov 09 - 05:39 PM

Kraft makes hostile takeover bid for Cadbury. Now that's a takeover!

Subject: RE: BS: American English usages taking over Brit
From: melodeonboy
Date: 10 Nov 09 - 05:09 PM

Hmmmm... Crap cheese company takes over crap chocolate company. Hydrogenated vegetable oils galore! Yum-yum!

Subject: RE: BS: American English usages taking over Brit
From: Bill D
Date: 10 Nov 09 - 05:23 PM

hummmph! I quite LIKE Cadbury's...when I can get them.

Subject: RE: BS: American English usages taking over Brit
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 13 Nov 09 - 03:49 AM

One example which has been ticking around my head since I started this thread has just surfaced — the term used in the military for servicemen [and women] who are not officers. The correct, & official, British English term for those not commissioned in the British armed services is "Other Ranks" ['OR' or 'ORs']. But the distinguished English novelist Ben Elton, in one of his books with a British military setting, persistently used the American equivalent "Enlisted men", which set my teeth on edge every time I came across it. Whether ignorance, or wilfulness, or a misguided attempt at Transpond trendiness on Elton's part, I have no means of knowing — I did write to him on the matter c/o his publishers but received no response. But I hope this won't catch on. You over there may have your 'enlisted men', but we have our 'other ranks', & long may it remain so.

Re previous post — in Noel Coward's play 'Relative Values', an American visitor who announces she is going 'horseriding' receives the reply "We just say 'riding' - the horse is taken for granted".

Subject: RE: BS: American English usages taking over Brit
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 13 Nov 09 - 04:11 AM

... & another usage-variant of which I am reminded by a post on the Things to Do Before Dying thread is that we bury our dead in 'coffins'; 'caskets' over here are used to keep jewels &c in. I can't help feeling that your use of 'casket' for this concept probably originated as a somewhat genteel undertakers' euphemism — would I be correct in that?

Subject: RE: BS: American English usages taking over Brit
From: Uncle_DaveO
Date: 13 Nov 09 - 12:10 PM

MtheGM, I just have a sneaking suspicion that the use of "caskets" for the corpse-burial container may be one of those many American survivals of older British usages, rather than Americanisms, whether mortician or otherwise.

Dave Oesterreich

Subject: RE: BS: American English usages taking over Brit
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 13 Nov 09 - 12:41 PM

I have checked the full edition of the Oxford Dict, which gives NO instance of the word 'casket, being used as a synonym for 'coffin' except under the head firmly labelled U.S., giving an earliest use of 1870. I think my above suggestion holds, Uncle Dave.

Subject: RE: BS: American English usages taking over Brit
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 13 Nov 09 - 12:43 PM

Incidentally, there is another example you provided -- your 'mortician' is our 'undertaker'.

Subject: RE: BS: American English usages taking over Brit
From: GUEST,Lighter
Date: 13 Nov 09 - 01:05 PM

The general term is no longer "enlisted men."

It's "enlisted persons."

Is that the sound of teeth grinding I hear?