Bob Dylan for Victoria's Secret

Subject: RE: Bob Dylan for Victoria's Secret
From: Little Hawk
Date: 07 Apr 04 - 07:37 PM

Yeah, they'll say, "You've got a lot of nerve..."

Subject: RE: Bob Dylan for Victoria's Secret
From: dianavan
Date: 07 Apr 04 - 07:54 PM

I don't watch much t.v. and haven't seen the ad but I do know that underwear ads are demeaning to women. I know this because when I was a young woman I modelled underwear. It only took one "businessman's lunch" to convince me that they weren't there to buy underwear for their wives.

I don't think Dylan is that innocent or naive to misunderstand what he has done. He knows perfectly well that this would create controversy and, once again, change his image. If thats what he wants to do, fine. He is now another weakling that has caved in to crass commercialism. I don't need to see the ad to make this deduction. I am really disappointed. There's nothing sadder than a fallen hero. Oh well, hubris.

Subject: RE: Bob Dylan for Victoria's Secret
From: GUEST
Date: 07 Apr 04 - 07:56 PM

We don't all sell out Ron, but it sure is clear you have.

Can you explain just how using a computer is "selling out"?

Subject: RE: Bob Dylan for Victoria's Secret
From: Peace
Date: 07 Apr 04 - 08:05 PM

If it was a no-name guy, the ad would be another one in a series of ads that use tits and ass to make sales. What's new. Similar stuff happens to guys. Our children cannot live up to the phony crap they are fed by television or magazine commercials. Dylan is, in my opinion, incidental to the 'message'. dianavan has hit on something, but I feel it is too narrow a view, not a wrong view. This is about the marketing of bodies to sell lingerie. Most people can't live up to the image, nor do I think they should try. Maybe what should be done with this type of thing is use it as a method of teaching kids about critical viewing AND critical thinking. Boys AND girls. I am tired of hearing that the only people targeted in adds like this are girl people. Bullshit. Boys get a wrong message also, and they are dragged through the mud, too. Let's broaden the scope a little here, call a spade a shovel, and deal with the real issues, not just the smoke and mirrors.

Subject: RE: Bob Dylan for Victoria's Secret
From: Peace
Date: 07 Apr 04 - 08:09 PM

I got that last line from "Cliches R Us".

Subject: RE: Bob Dylan for Victoria's Secret
From: Little Hawk
Date: 07 Apr 04 - 08:17 PM

Well, when you consider that in Cuba a middle-class person earns less than $500 Canadian a year (or $350 US)...and for that they live a nice life with full free medical care, but they get by without an SUV, a computer, surround sound, a two-car garage, 850 CD's, and all our other expensive toys...

We in North America have ALL sold out.

We fiddle while Rome burns. We consume the World's riches at an unprecedented rate and we invade small countries and use the Third World for cheap labour. We are the whores of Babylon. Chew on that.

- LH

Subject: RE: Bob Dylan for Victoria's Secret
From: dianavan
Date: 07 Apr 04 - 08:39 PM

Speak for yourself, Little Hawk. I have medical coverage and a computer but none of the rest of the stuff on your list. I didn't set myself up as "protest singer" either. Dylan's just another old hypocrite that got rich because we were naive enough to believe him.

Subject: RE: Bob Dylan for Victoria's Secret
From: GUEST,earthling
Date: 07 Apr 04 - 08:47 PM

Catalogues sell male underwear too. And you don't see a wrinkly, balding, paunchy guy modelling their merchandise? Is that a gross discriminatory stance?

Right or wrong, companies will use the body that makes their product look appealing to the majority of people, whether they are selling perfume, cars, fast food or life insurance.

And even if their idea of 'good' isn't the actual body that most of us possess, it is the one that many strive to achieve. Not just for the physical look, but because it promotes an idea of healthiness and general well being.

I don't find it demeaning, it is just advertising. It has and will always be the same.There are no hidden subliminal messages going on. It isn't trying to be subtle and clever. Advertising is about selling a lifestyle, as in, " Buy our breakfast cereal and you will all jump out of bed at 7am bright eyed and bushy tailed." We know that isn't true, but we are not offended by it.

Good for Bob, sure he saw the funny side of it.

Subject: RE: Bob Dylan for Victoria's Secret
From: GUEST,Pedro
Date: 07 Apr 04 - 08:50 PM

Nobody should be upset about this - so Dylan is not a saint. Who said he was in the first place? And he's supposed to be responsible for some unwanted advance some ass made when you were strutting around in underwear? What's that? Exactly what did you expect. Talk about naive. Besides, the two scenarios are hardly comparable.

Its not as if he's some priest who just got excommunicated for the 'sins of the father'. He already admitted to having one hand tied to the tight-rope walker and the other - well you know. Besides, he called us all idiots and we loved it... and of course, he was right.

Subject: RE: Bob Dylan for Victoria's Secret
From: GUEST,Pedro
Date: 07 Apr 04 - 09:10 PM

Little Hawk - that's right on the MONEY. Exactly! History will not judge us well. There is nothing like a Hummer to get my blood boiling when the rest of the world is starving, we're trying to figure out how to write-off one on our tax return - which by the way "Yes, it is easily done", thanks to the administration et al.

And if anything, Dylan has been, and continues to be one of our very few saving graces...

Subject: RE: Bob Dylan for Victoria's Secret
From: Little Hawk
Date: 07 Apr 04 - 10:00 PM

I was making a general statement about western society, Dianavan. The statement was intended to provoke thought, but not to denigrate each one of us as individuals. It was an indictment of a society, couched in rather dramatic terms. If you spend some time in the Third World, and see how people live, you can't help but be stunned by the contrast and begin to question our highly consumptive lifestyle in North America. And remember, this is not done to preserve "democracy", it's done to sell product. Period.

Given the fact that most people are naturally the product of the culture they are born into, North Americans are on a conscious level pretty innocent in what they do...and they are not bad people. It's the system that is destructive. It's the system I question.

I believe everyone should have medical coverage everywhere, and at no personal cost whatsoever. That is a form of socialism. As for the other things I mentioned, the material luxuries, they are taken for granted in the affluent society. Meanwhile, Rome burns. Wait and see. The World's basket of goodies is getting shorter and shorter in supply, and the middle class in North America is vanishing.

Dylan NEVER set himself up as a "protest singer", other people set him up as one. He simply wrote songs naturally and those songs came out of him at the time. I've read enough about his early life to know that. When he perceived that other people were setting him up as a protest singer, he began to move very much away from that, because he didn't like being cast in such a mould in order to serve various other people's political agendas. The New Left saw him as their spokesman. He wasn't writing songs in order to be their spokesman. The New Left were just as fanatical and knee-jerk in their approach to social issues as the John Birchers were on the other side of the divide. They did and said idiotic things and had a breathtaking arrogance about them. Dylan stepped away from that because it was indeed hypocrisy of a blatant sort, and he didn't feel comfortable as its chosen front man.

The truth lies between the extremes, and it is not found by being a "protest" singer. If you want to see what being a protest singer does to stultify and paralyze a person's mental flexibility and songwriting expression, just study the rather tragic career of Phil Ochs...a young man with the best of intentions who trapped himself forever inside a role that became a self-limiting artistic prison.

You say Dylan's a "hypocrite"? Ah...well, and who is not at times a hypocrite? Who has not said one thing, and later done another? Which of us has been totally consistent to his or her stated ideals all the days of their lives?

What people don't like about Dylan is this: he's his own man, not their man. He's free. Maybe they are not.

Be advised not to take any of what I say about this personally, because I don't know you. I am simply talking about humanity in general, that's all.

- LH

Subject: RE: Bob Dylan for Victoria's Secret
From: dianavan
Date: 07 Apr 04 - 11:41 PM

Thanks, LH for being straight with me.

Pedro - Nobody made any advances toward me when I was modelling but I certainly know the difference between interest in the product I was trying to sell and the leer of an older man. Yes, I was naive up to that point.

What you and the others do not seem to understand is that only a woman knows how it feels when someone is leering at you. It means that they do not know you, or respect you and that you are simply an object of their desire. When men do this to younger women, it is a power imbalance and serves only to objectify women. Dylan's presence in the ad would only legitimize a behaviour that most women have been struggling to overcome for years.

I don't expect men to understand this but the least you can do is listen to women when they say it makes them feel uncomfortable. Instead of denying our feelings, you seem to justify (indeed support) an aging rock star who is projecting chauvinism at its best.

Subject: RE: Bob Dylan for Victoria's Secret
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 07 Apr 04 - 11:43 PM

Guest - you asked me how using a computer is selling out. Can you tell me who made your computer? Where was it made? What kind of parts are in it? Who made it? Why did you buy it? How did you get the money to pay for it? Who is your internet provider? What kind of software are you using? Windows? I would be shocked if you have a PC that has not been touched by a corporation, which you have supported by purchasing and using it.

Of course I've sold out! Being part of a system does not mean you lose your values.

Subject: RE: Bob Dylan for Victoria's Secret
From: GUEST
Date: 08 Apr 04 - 09:05 AM

Little Hawk and Ron (and other thread Dylan sycophants), you are using disingenuous tactics here, trying to "win" what you perceive is either argument or debate (both are valid).

Trying to suggest that Dylan is not a hypocrite because we are all hypocrites, or that Dylan is not a sell out because we are all sell outs, is fallacious thinking as well.

But I'm done with this thread, as it keeps getting dumber and dumber with every damn post.

I leave it to you Dylan worshippers.

Subject: RE: Bob Dylan for Victoria's Secret
From: Strick
Date: 08 Apr 04 - 09:36 AM

Er, I probably should have my head examined for contributing this, but you'll never guess what I just got in my email:

"Get a Free Bob Dylan CD with Any Purchase Now, Details Inside"

(inside)FREE CD WITH ANY PURCHASE NOW through 3AMEST on April 11, 2004 while supplies last. Bob Dylan's Love Sick, a Victoria's Secret exclusive. Enter offer code DYLANCD. Details below.

Honest. I'm on their mailing list because my 40+ year old wife buys her things at VS and, until she got a laptop for her birthday and went internet wild, I used to order for her.

So this is what it's all about. Cross promotion.

Subject: RE: Bob Dylan for Victoria's Secret
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 08 Apr 04 - 09:44 AM

Sorry you feel that way guest. It is easy for you to make your own definition of "sellout" and then dismiss other arguements.   

I never claimed to be a Dylan "worshipper". I admire his music, but my life does not rise or set with his words or lifestyle. I simply accept him as a good writer who has the same flaws as we all do. I do not put him on a pedestal or hold him up to MY ideals of what he should be doing, which it seems that you do.   I do not make assumptions, which you have, and if I learned anything from the flawed generation that Dylan came from it is that people should be allowed to follow their own path.   "Don't follow leaders, watch your parking meters."

Subject: RE: Bob Dylan for Victoria's Secret
From: Peace
Date: 08 Apr 04 - 10:18 AM

Subject: RE: Bob Dylan for Victoria's Secret
From: GUEST,van
Date: 08 Apr 04 - 10:27 AM

Could it be that he'th jutht thtill fond of thongth.

Subject: RE: Bob Dylan for Victoria's Secret
From: GUEST,Pedro
Date: 08 Apr 04 - 10:37 AM

Dianavan;
Maybe I misinterpreted your message where you seemed to support your argument by saying that when you once modeled underwear and in the course a business lunch there were unwanted advances... are these two unrelated events? It didn't come across to me that way and I just re read it and it frankly still does not. If it was so, then your modeling of underwear, per se, had nothing to do with the other (the chauvinistic advances), so I don't get to how the tale(s) relates to the Victoria's Secret ad. I do however regret the rather crude way I came across in response to your comments in general - so I apologize for that. Certainly these things do happen all the time and it is not cool when it is done the wrong way and for the wrong reasons. But there is a question of where the line is drawn between appropriateness and blatant chauvinism (or much worse) - keeping in mind that this kind of communication IS fundamental to all human sexual encounters - and mistakes and miscalculations, even under the best of intentions, are inevitable. I think that is what this discussion is primarily about. We all have an opinion. And I happen to think the ad is done in reasonably good taste - esp. when I compare it to much of the media stuff (MTV videos for example... but any of us could go on citing better (i.e., worse) examples...

And I also don't see how Dylan has perpetuated something that's necessarily bad here - people make of it what each individual would anyway. There would merely be some other excuse to fill the gap... I think that those who see Dylan as 'selling out', well that's just their own perception based on THEIR highly distorted expectations of him. It's their thing not his.

And by the way, with only two notable exceptions (that I can think of off hand) in his post 1964 career, the Dylan protest singer thing is basically a typecast (I find myself again agreeing with Little Hawk here)... Listen (again) to MY BACK PAGES - he told everybody he was hanging up on that then and there. The FANaticS just wouldn't hear of it... any pedestal they perceive he's now fallen from is only within there own minds because they will not let his short lived protest song singing career go.

Subject: RE: Bob Dylan for Victoria's Secret
From: GUEST,Pedro
Date: 08 Apr 04 - 11:45 AM

Dianavan and others -
Thats it, isn't it? - its the "the leer of an older man" -- that's what has so many of us disturbed! So ya think HE looks "creepy"???

But if he was younger and more visually appealing - saaayyyyy, Ted Bundy for example, wweeellllll, then that would be OK...

Think about that.

P

Subject: RE: Bob Dylan for Victoria's Secret
From: Little Hawk
Date: 08 Apr 04 - 12:11 PM

Here are the lyrics of "My Back Pages", released in 1964, a year the height of Dylan's "protest song" period in 1963. His message is obvious: "I was naive and simplistic. I thought I could change the world with a handful of angry songs. I'm not doing that anymore, no matter how much you people want me to. I'm not writing that stuff anymore to meet your requirements or expectations. I am gonna change myself instead, from the inside out."

My Back Pages

Crimson flames tied through my ears
Rollin' high and mighty traps
Pounced with fire on flaming roads
Using ideas as my maps
"We'll meet on edges, soon," said I
Proud 'neath heated brow.
Ah, but I was so much older then,
I'm younger than that now.

Half-wracked prejudice leaped forth
"Rip down all hate," I screamed
Lies that life is black and white
Spoke from my skull. I dreamed
Romantic facts of musketeers
Foundationed deep, somehow.
Ah, but I was so much older then,
I'm younger than that now.

Girls' faces formed the forward path
From phony jealousy
To memorizing politics
Of ancient history
Flung down by corpse evangelists
Unthought of, though, somehow.
Ah, but I was so much older then,
I'm younger than that now.

A self-ordained professor's tongue
Too serious to fool
Spouted out that liberty
Is just equality in school
"Equality," I spoke the word
As if a wedding vow.
Ah, but I was so much older then,
I'm younger than that now.

In a soldier's stance, I aimed my hand
At the mongrel dogs who teach
Fearing not that I'd become my enemy
In the instant that I preach
My pathway led by confusion boats
Mutiny from stern to bow.
Ah, but I was so much older then,
I'm younger than that now.

Yes, my guard stood hard when abstract threats
Too noble to neglect
Deceived me into thinking
I had something to protect
Good and bad, I define these terms
Quite clear, no doubt, somehow.
Ah, but I was so much older then,
I'm younger than that now.

Copyright © 1964; renewed 1992 Special Rider Music


For people to hear the original recordings of those protest songs and imagine that he didn't mean them at the time is to indicate that those people are either partially deaf or entirely cynical. He was performing probably 200 or more times a year, and sang those songs hundreds of times. In doing so, he moved through the feelings that brought forth those songs. He processed those feelings rapidly, and reached a point where his viewpoint on them shifted to a new viewpoint. Then he had new things to say. That's what happens when a person is open to change. You process stuff till you fully understand your place in it fully, and then you move on, unless you're too rigid a personality to be willing to ever change.

As regards the Victoria's Secret ad...or any such ad...I fully understand why people would have objections to such ads and would feel that they objectify and trivialize women. No problem.

- LH

Subject: RE: Bob Dylan for Victoria's Secret
From: Peace
Date: 08 Apr 04 - 12:21 PM

LH: I'd carry that one step further, which I think puts me in dianavan's ballpark: I think ads like that trivialize all of us. There is someone out there who figures we are stupid enough to be sucked in by the ad and buy the stuff VS sells because of the ad. That is a scary thought.

I always loved the song above by the way. I first heard it while living in Brooklyn--it was 'hot off the press'. Loved it then and I love it now.

To be disgusted by commercials of this nature--the T and A stuff, father a dsughter. Then, watch some shithead give her the look. That is what women feel when people size 'em up for the sack while they walk down the street. I will never know exactly how dianavan said she felt, but I think I know it wasn't very good.

Final remark from me: Dylan should have refused.

Subject: RE: Bob Dylan for Victoria's Secret
From: Little Hawk
Date: 08 Apr 04 - 12:32 PM

Yes indeed, Bruce. Ads do trivialize all of us. The thing that most annoys me about this culture on a daily basis is the f**king advertising everywhere...specially on radio and TV. As a result, I have given up listening to or watching commercial radio and TV almost entirely. And yes, women are constantly demeaned by the commercial culture...and so are men!

You're probably right that Dylan should not have done this ad. But I can live with him doing it, because I greatly appreciate all that he has done in song. He contributed a great deal to my life.

- LH

Subject: RE: Bob Dylan for Victoria's Secret
From: GUEST
Date: 08 Apr 04 - 10:32 PM

I thought we got kicked off the internet for Little Hawks publishing of MY BACK PAGES. Kidding, guess their server was down...

Folks this has been interesting... I'll come back here sometime and we try to help save the world and mull over the Dylan riddle or whatever. But the fact is, we are stuck with this system. And all of us line our wallets directly or indirectly with the results of advertising... That doesn't mean we like it, or that we're hypocrites. It's bigger than us and its bigger than Dylan. And sex in advertising is never going to go away in the foreseeable future. And people will always checkout each other. That's how it works. Period!

Dylan is getting smeared in the media for this thing... Every writer with an axe to grind is saying the same thing - SELL OUT. Jeez – you'd think these pro writers could try to be a little more original than that. I say that's complete bullshit. Those that actually believe that are completely naive. He is the last person that needs to do this to further his career or make money. Why he did it only he knows. But my guess is he did it "just because". Dylan doesn't need a reason and he certainly doesn't need me or anyone else defending him. He'll be remembered when the internet seems like Gutenberg's press to us. And this incident will just be a curious footnote in the Bio of an eccentric genius… Best wishes to all...

P

Subject: RE: Bob Dylan for Victoria's Secret
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 08 Apr 04 - 10:45 PM

Very well put Guest!

Subject: RE: Bob Dylan for Victoria's Secret
From: dianavan
Date: 08 Apr 04 - 11:23 PM

Pedro - I don't care if a man is young or old, when he leers he is creepy. Would you like it if a man leered at you?

To the rest of you - I like Dylan's music too. Its part of my life and will always be part of my collection. I've never idolized the guy but thought he would have better things to do than appear in a t.v. ad. Makes me wonder why he thinks, after all these years, he has to advertise at all. He has a pretty loyal following and you'd think that he, of all people, would want his music to stand on his own. Why the cheap tricks?

Subject: RE: Bob Dylan for Victoria's Secret
From: Little Hawk
Date: 08 Apr 04 - 11:35 PM

I honestly think it's a joke of some kind, Dianavan. He has a perverse sense of humour. Either that, or he just did it on a whim...and that could be again because of his perverse sense of humour.

He does really odd things from time to time. When he showed up in England in '65 to meet the press he was carrying an enormous lightbulb and wearing a top hat. The light bulb was as big as a pumpkin. God knows where he got it. They asked him if he had a particular message for people, and he said, "Always keep a good head and carry a lightbulb."

Why did he do it? Probably because he was just sick and tired of being asked to define the meaning of other people's lives for them... :-)

His interviews with the press were bizarre in '65 and '66. If he was in a good mood, they were hysterically funny. If he wasn't, they were sarcastic and very brief. He was completely disillusioned with the press, with the same questions he'd already heard 1,000 times before, and the whole thing, and he put them on ruthlessly. Sometimes they just wrote it all down faithfully, and duly reported it. He must've wondered just how far he could go before they would snap out of their professional daze and do something DIFFERENT

Subject: RE: Bob Dylan for Victoria's Secret
From: GUEST,Pedro
Date: 09 Apr 04 - 12:08 AM

Ok Dianavan I'll answer that question because it's addressed to me (but than I really do have to go - I have a long trip starting next a.m.)…

No, I do not like it when stupid pricks - men or women leer at me. I walked point in Vietnam in 1969-1970 and I've been leered at by guys with AK-47's, RPG's, you name it. The average life expectancy of a pointman was approximately 3 weeks and I did for 7 months, then I 'retired' to carrying a radio for the rest of my tour. When I got back I remember a blonde airline attendant at SFO leering at me with a kind of hate that was breath taking to behold. Then in the insuring years, I kind of dropped out of society and I experienced every kind of hateful dumb fucker look you can imagine...

I got to the point of near suicide and the only thing that made any sense to me was Dylan's Idiot Wind. He saved my life with that one piece.

And that's why I don't like it when people see this as some kind of glorious opportunity to judge Dylan... and thereby bolster their own pulverized egos...

P

Subject: RE: Bob Dylan for Victoria's Secret
From: Little Hawk
Date: 09 Apr 04 - 12:17 AM

Whew! Well, that certainly says it all for me...

I'm glad you made it back, Pedro. Vaya con Dios.

Subject: RE: Bob Dylan for Victoria's Secret
From: Amos
Date: 09 Apr 04 - 12:57 AM

Hey Pedro --

That was one beautiful letter,, Pedro. Thanks for writing it.

A

Subject: RE: Bob Dylan for Victoria's Secret
From: dianavan
Date: 09 Apr 04 - 01:44 AM

Hey, Pedro - Glad you came through it as well as you have. I know about the radio men in Vietnam - first target, right? I'm also aware of what you guys had to face when you came home. My brother, a boyfriend and my ex-husband had to deal with it. I went through it with them. It was a lonely road to walk. Glad Dylan was there for you.

Subject: RE: Bob Dylan for Victoria's Secret
From: Amos
Date: 09 Apr 04 - 11:19 AM

DV:

Guess you've come through a number of strange things yourself, and survived.

Also a good thing! :>)

A

Subject: RE: Bob Dylan for Victoria's Secret
From: Art Thieme
Date: 09 Apr 04 - 10:17 PM

...and after all is said and done, as Somerset Maugham intimated in his fine book "The Razor's Edge", it just doesn't matter--. That's especially true of this thread.

Art Thieme

Subject: RE: Bob Dylan for Victoria's Secret
From: GUEST
Date: 10 Apr 04 - 01:20 AM

Art - the next time you stub your toe or poke yourself in the eye, which I'm sure you do on a regular basis, tell yourself "it just doesn't matter". And if you find it matters, then this matters too. If NOTHING matters, then contrary to your last line, everything is (equally) of ZERO importance, so this thread can be of no less consequence than any other. I do believe Somerset was eluding to something that is well beyond your intellect. Keep trying though, it NEVER hurts to try.

Does your mommy know you're staying up this late?

Subject: RE: Bob Dylan for Victoria's Secret
From: Little Hawk
Date: 10 Apr 04 - 10:12 AM

No, Guest, he was alluding to it. If he was eluding it he would have avoided the subject entirely. :-)

The thing is, life is full of paradox. You can say "nothing matters", and from a certain perspective that's true. Or...you can say "everything matters", and that is just as true from another perspective. Either way works just fine. That's why we are free beings in a free universe. You've got free will...if you're willing to use it.

Know'm'sayin'?

- LH

Subject: RE: Bob Dylan for Victoria's Secret
From: Peace
Date: 10 Apr 04 - 12:11 PM

Matter can neither be created nor destroyed. HA!

Subject: RE: Bob Dylan for Victoria's Secret
From: Strick
Date: 10 Apr 04 - 12:43 PM

But it can become energy. In this case useless energy, but energy none the less.

Subject: RE: Bob Dylan for Victoria's Secret
From: Peace
Date: 10 Apr 04 - 12:46 PM

But, that does not matter. HA!

Subject: RE: Bob Dylan for Victoria's Secret
From: Little Hawk
Date: 10 Apr 04 - 12:52 PM

Whether it's useless or not is paradoxical too, Strick. It gave you a useful opportunity to demonstrate your innate superiority to people who engage in this sort of discussion. :-)

Subject: RE: Bob Dylan for Victoria's Secret
From: GUEST,Shlio
Date: 10 Apr 04 - 04:31 PM

LH - I am impressed by your stalwort defence of Dylan, as he came under the ill-informed attacks of nameless Guests.

Frankly, Dylan can do anything he wants, without affecting his popularity (and probably raising VS's), because he is himself. And his popularity is from people of all ages.

And the songs he wrote in the 60s, 70s and 80s remain just as meaningful today.

I haven't seen the advert yet, but I figure my time'll be better spent if I go listen to "Blood on the Tracks"...

Subject: RE: Bob Dylan for Victoria's Secret
From: Little Hawk
Date: 10 Apr 04 - 04:43 PM

No question about that.

Subject: RE: Bob Dylan for Victoria's Secret
From: Strick
Date: 10 Apr 04 - 05:37 PM

"Whether it's useless or not is paradoxical too, Strick. It gave you a useful opportunity to demonstrate your innate superiority to people who engage in this sort of discussion."

I'm often pompus, even contemptuous, but I've never considered myself superior.

I did have a horse in this race anyway. It was only an ad on TV no matter who was in it.

Subject: RE: Bob Dylan for Victoria's Secret
From: Don Firth
Date: 10 Apr 04 - 09:18 PM

I think I've got it! One of two things: either Bob is working on a revision of one of his old songs, or Victoria's Secret is coming out with a new line of bras. Maybe both!

Boobs of Spanish Leather!

Don Firth

Subject: RE: Bob Dylan for Victoria's Secret
From: Little Hawk
Date: 10 Apr 04 - 09:41 PM

That's cool with me, Strick. Sounds like we're walking down the same path, you and me...even if we are sometimes on opposite sides of the pavement.

I tend to diverge into pomposity and contempt on occasion too... :-)

- LH

Subject: RE: Bob Dylan for Victoria's Secret
From: JenEllen
Date: 10 Apr 04 - 10:20 PM

Yeah, when it comes down to it, we're all a little 'angelic'...Me, I'm always up in the air and harping about something....

Subject: RE: Bob Dylan for Victoria's Secret
From: GUEST,brit
Date: 12 Apr 04 - 02:38 PM

i was shocked at first to see dylan in victoria's secret ad.. but he's 62 now.. hes got money, and hes had a huge career. The guy's a legend. one ad.. who gives a shit. Though, yes, i think his staring is a bit creepy..

Subject: RE: Bob Dylan for Victoria's Secret
From: GUEST,gobi
Date: 21 Apr 04 - 06:56 AM

well, well. I haven't seen the ad but I believe Bob was leering at the young lady in lingerie and spikes, flashing through Venice, as he sang "I'm sick of love" because, yes, a girl in lingerie is attractive, no matter what age you are. Most of us older guys don't leer, but we appreciate in silence. Bob might be recognizing this and gives the sneer while singing the song, to undermine the whole Victoria's Secret thing..dressing young, middle and older aged women in underwear designed to attract and to inspire lustful response. I suppose that's ok, if the response is between lover and loved, but when you watch the ads for Victoria's on tv and you're an older guy, and you know that the times have changed and you're never going to be with a woman that beautiful ever again, then you get sick of love, sick of the way it is presented, sick of the way our culture accents the female form to sell products. I'm sick of that kind of love, too. What is it in this world that makes women want to attract and then get upset when they attract indiscriminately? I mean, would everyone be ok with the ad if it were the model and Ben Affleck? Old men aren't dead but they do know how to behave and they do get sick of having near naked women thrust before them when they are reclining in a rocker for another quiet night at home. It's Victoria's Secrets that is perpetuating the crime.

Subject: RE: Bob Dylan for Victoria's Secret
From: GUEST
Date: 21 Apr 04 - 08:28 AM

"What is it in this world that makes women want to attract and then get upset when they attract indiscriminately?"

What is it that makes some men and women think that Victoria's Secrets products are something most women want? It isn't.

What is it that makes some men and women think that most women, whatever their age, want sexual attention beyond the mating years of high school and the early 20s?

What is it that makes some men and women think that most women don't feel demeaned by this sort of attention, in spite of the pornographic fashion industry and the male pop stars that promote themselves through it?

"It's Victoria's Secrets that is perpetuating the crime."

And in this case, Bob Dylan is their accomplice. If it were Ben Affleck instead, it would be Ben Affleck who would be the accomplice.

Not all of us come from "it's just a commercial, no big deal" school of non-critical thought.

Subject: RE: Bob Dylan for Victoria's Secret
From: Strick
Date: 21 Apr 04 - 02:37 PM

On the contrary, "no big deal" is full of critical thinking. Just a response to more rational priorities.

Subject: RE: Bob Dylan for Victoria's Secret
From: Strick
Date: 21 Apr 04 - 02:38 PM

Who'd have thought this would live to 300?