BS: The Debates: Members Only

Subject: RE: BS: The Debates: Members Only
From: Riginslinger
Date: 13 Oct 08 - 09:29 PM

"...anybody truly strongly against organized religion..."

             A number of people are against organized religion. Personally, I'm against any kind of religion at all. People thinking with clear heads is a better alternative, I think.


               "...why is the poster so stupidly gullible as to regurgitate anything he hears on the radio--rather than thinking it through?"


                  Ron - You keep creating these litte scenarios to demonstrate points the way you wished they had happened. Read the thread--the microphones picked up what Sarah Palin said when she put the heckler down, but it wasn't clear what the heckler was saying.
                        If you want him to have been saying, "Kill him," and that works for you, I'll just have to take your word for it. Frankly, I don't know.

Subject: RE: BS: The Debates: Members Only
From: Little Hawk
Date: 13 Oct 08 - 09:30 PM

"as has been noted, anybody truly strongly against organized religion would be strongly against McCain/ Palin"

Not necessarily. He would definitely be strongly against their specific beliefs and utterances regarding religion (and he is), while in a more general sense he might still support their campaign over Obama's for a host of other reasons that seemed relevant to him...given the fact that religion is simply NOT the ONLY issue in this campaign!

In other words, Ron, if he was an instrument capable of playing only 1 note, then he would have to abide by the fractured sense of logic you are attempting to bring to the discussion. But he's not... ;-) He is an instrument that can play many different notes. And this election is not just about religion. ;-)

To admit this would deprive you of the joy of calling him a hypocrite, and that is why you won't admit it. It would interfere with the fun you have captaining the "Sneers 'r Us" team.

Challenge Rig on a REAL basis, Ron. God knows, there is plenty of real basis on which to challenge him.

Subject: RE: BS: The Debates: Members Only
From: GUEST,heric
Date: 15 Oct 08 - 09:17 PM

Oh dear - I better not misunderestimate him I guess but 8 minutes in JM looks like a confused hamster running on three legs.



Brings to mind, with some foreboding, The Germans episode of Fawlty Towers: "How did they ever win?"

Subject: RE: BS: The Debates: Members Only
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 15 Oct 08 - 10:30 PM

Why does McCain keep talking about children with autism and saying "Sarah Palin knows about that." Sarah Palin has a child with Down Syndrome who is only months old. Autism is detectable later on, as I understand it. Does she also have a child with autism?

Other than this observation, McCain keeps harping on the same nonsense, and I find it remarkable that in these debates he can sit there across from Obama and lie about Obama's policies and proposals. Does he believe that if he keeps saying these things often enough they will come true?

SRS

Subject: RE: BS: The Debates: Members Only
From: catspaw49
Date: 15 Oct 08 - 10:41 PM

Karen showered and got ready to leave for work then walked into the den and sat down to watch. Within about a minute of split screen viewing she asked, "Does McCain have a rod up his ass or what?"

McCain's actions off screen were telling. It started out with Obama a bit quiet and subdued but he soon gained the passion he needed. McCain was certainly on the offense and often offensive. Obama did very well on the repudiation of the Ayers crap and is worth watching if for nothing else his calm response with reason and humor.

McCain had his best debate but it was not strong enough.


Spaw

Subject: RE: BS: The Debates: Members Only
From: TIA
Date: 15 Oct 08 - 10:49 PM

I just heard McCain talking about pregnant young women "facing such a difficult choice".....

Hmmmmm.

Subject: RE: BS: The Debates: Members Only
From: TIA
Date: 15 Oct 08 - 10:50 PM

BTW - I know Joe the Plumber. NO SHIT!

Subject: RE: BS: The Debates: Members Only
From: Amos
Date: 15 Oct 08 - 10:52 PM

Obama came out the winner on points. McCain held hi temper well, and did not freak out, but he was prone to nasty false statements--which Obama would just shake his head and smile at--and he did, indeed, like he had a rod up his ass and strings on his cheeks. He looked stiff and had a forced visage of artificial attention.

His closing remarks were good. Obama's were, as well.

On the specific issues, Obama was consistently presenting positive plans with clear descriptions. McCain, not so much, often resorting to general "good iseas" instead.

I think the consensus will be "A good debate, winner Obama."


A

Subject: RE: BS: The Debates: Members Only
From: GUEST,heric
Date: 15 Oct 08 - 11:03 PM

How did we get to the point where our most esteemed spokesperson, famous for his eloquence and poise, spouts "gonna hafta" ad infinitum?

Even my friend the gardener and Palin supporter thought it was ridiculous for each of them to be promising all sorts of candy if you vote them in. ("Everybody gets $5,000.00," etc.)

I sure want this to be over.

Subject: RE: BS: The Debates: Members Only
From: Alice
Date: 15 Oct 08 - 11:18 PM

CBS poll of undecideds:

Who won the debate?

Obama 53
McCain 22

Subject: RE: BS: The Debates: Members Only
From: Alice
Date: 15 Oct 08 - 11:21 PM

MediaCurves independents: Obama 60, McCain 30.

CNN poll from the TV: Obama 58, McCain 31.

Subject: RE: BS: The Debates: Members Only
From: Ron Davies
Date: 15 Oct 08 - 11:36 PM

McCain had the best line of the night: "I am not George Bush". But Obama was far stronger on what I think--and hope--are far more significant to independents--and that's where the race will be decided. Obama took McCain's health care plan apart before his eyes--especially pointing out that McCain's plan will very likely result in many sick and needy losing coverage as their employers drop their own coverage when the young and healthy flee to cheaper plans, and the employers raise their rates to cover the new situation. I've seen this prediction also in the WSJ.

For some people, the "I'm all right Jack" attitude embraced by McCain is just fine. For anybody concerned about fairness, however, it's abominable--and typical of the Bush/McCain policies--since in many respects they are identical--despite McCain's good line in the debate.

Obama was also very strong in describing how we can create new jobs in the US in the emerging "green economy"--starting with more efficient cars.

And McCain slit his own throat, right on cue--and as predicted-- by dragging Ayers into
the debate. Obama was ready for him. And McCain's negative campaigning was put on display for the whole country to see. Negative campaigning is a loser in attracting independents--and anybody else who thinks.

Subject: RE: BS: The Debates: Members Only
From: John O'L
Date: 15 Oct 08 - 11:59 PM

Obama was waving, McCain was drowning.

At this stage the presidency is Obama's to lose.

Subject: RE: BS: The Debates: Members Only
From: Janie
Date: 16 Oct 08 - 12:11 AM

Obama is clearly smart and as savy as all get-out when it comes to image and presentation. A much better manipulator than is McCain. He seems quite calculating. Not attributes I personally admire but probably very necessary attributes of an effective leader of a diverse country. In some ways, he reminds me of LBJ. I hope he truly has some measure of vision and integrity.

More than that, I hope that he and the Congress that gets elected are on the same page.

Subject: RE: BS: The Debates: Members Only
From: Sawzaw
Date: 16 Oct 08 - 12:20 AM

The more something looks like a sure thing, the more it is not.

Subject: RE: BS: The Debates: Members Only
From: Janie
Date: 16 Oct 08 - 12:43 AM

Sawzaw

You may be right.

But I hope not. I am not enamored of Obama, but think both my own paradigm and the very different paradigm out of which McCain operates are dated and unworkable in this first decade of the 21st century. I think Obama is much more capable of leading this country in a workable direction for the present and future than is McCain. I can't quite step out of my own paradigm and embrace Obama with enthusiasm, but I do get that I am a dinosaur.

Janie

Subject: RE: BS: The Debates: Members Only
From: Donuel
Date: 16 Oct 08 - 12:49 AM

Joe the Plumber gets it. Joe is often up to his elbows in shit and so is the country.
We now know two Joea. Joe Six Pack by his drunkeness and Joe the Plumber for his butt crack.

Subject: RE: BS: The Debates: Members Only
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 16 Oct 08 - 12:52 AM

I'm confused. How many middle-class working plumbers are in a position to buy a business that nets a quarter of a million per year? And with that kind of net, who would worry much about a small incremental tax?

Subject: RE: BS: The Debates: Members Only
From: Janie
Date: 16 Oct 08 - 12:59 AM

Good one, Don.

Subject: RE: BS: The Debates: Members Only
From: Barry Finn
Date: 16 Oct 08 - 01:20 AM

Well Obama is very worthy of the office he's about to occupy. As far as what I saw tonight was a snead, condesending man who attacked plans that sounded workable while offing "I can do this" as his only offering. $5000 won't take me on a walk through the park & all I could think of was he'll tax that too when he gets round to it. Is that all you got? Please say it ain't so John, is that all there is? "I'm not Bush!" Was the best he could do, well he couldn't have fooled very many cause he's got the same preachy false insincere tone in his voice when he's offering up the same Bush policies.
The shame of MaCain is that the best he can do is to try to tear into Obama's personility & policy when he can't really give a clear policy of his own besides "I can do this", "do what" is the next question! After he pushed Obama for an amount on the health fine issue & Obama shot a zero back MaCain just couldn't swallow it & went back again like a brick thick headed ignormaus & tried a repeat that agin fell flat.
I'm happy that the republicans don't have anyone better to offer up than this pair of Miss Leaders, they come all dressed up for the party & end up crashing the play.
What were they thinking?
Barry

Subject: RE: BS: The Debates: Members Only
From: Azizi
Date: 16 Oct 08 - 02:11 AM

What was McCain thinking?

-confusing Sarah Palin's child's medical condition. He has Down Syndrome and not autism.

-saying that troops could be teachers without certification. What?! Sure, being in the military automatically means that you can be a good teacher. [snark]

-saying a women's health wasn't important in cases of abortion. McCain lost a ton of women voters with that statement.

And then there was his refusal to repudiate those persons at his rallies who called Obama a terrorist and shouted that he should be killed..Disgraceful!

But imo, the reason why all the television network focus groups-including the Republican's own Fox News- overwhelmingly voted Obama the winner of all three of the presidential debates was more a matter of the difference between the two candidate's tone, body language, and overall image than what they said.

Obama not only had substance, he was cool & consistent under fire. In a word, he was Presidential.

And McCain? He was a nasty, sneering, angry old man, not someone who inspires confidence. And given that we are involved in two wars and a worsening economic crisis, Americans {and the rest of the world} need to feel confident in our President.

Three more weeks. Then Obama/Biden will be elected President and Vice President. And McCain can go back to one of his houses and Palin can go back to Alaska.

Hallelujah!

Subject: RE: BS: The Debates: Members Only
From: Bobert
Date: 16 Oct 08 - 07:31 AM

Word here in Pine Grove Holler is that McCain is gonna dump Ms. Sarah and put Joe the Plumber on the ticket... lol...

But really, these debates have shown one thing and that is when ya' take the a guy who was 5th from the bottom of his class and put him in the ring with the guy who was 1st that the guy 5th from the bottom is gonna get his clock cleaned 100 time outta 100...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: The Debates: Members Only
From: kendall
Date: 16 Oct 08 - 07:58 AM

I thought Mcwar was winning until he made that awful gaff about abortion! The women will get him for that. What can you expect from a man who calls his wife the most disgusting word in the English language?

Subject: RE: BS: The Debates: Members Only
From: Bobert
Date: 16 Oct 08 - 08:05 AM

Did he really call her a "Republican", Capt'n??? Man, that's crass...

Subject: RE: BS: The Debates: Members Only
From: Jeri
Date: 16 Oct 08 - 08:32 AM

Palin's sister has a son with autism.
The military/teacher connection is the Troops to Teachers program, and it's not without requirements for the 'troop' to meet.

See factcheck.org on the debate.

Subject: RE: BS: The Debates: Members Only
From: Azizi
Date: 16 Oct 08 - 08:39 AM

It turns out that Joe the Plumber {Joe Wurzelbacher of Ohio} is not even registered to vote.

And it's being reported that Joe's father Richard Wurzelbacher of Ohio is a contributor to a right wing conservative PAC, his uncle Randy is a McCain supporter, and there is a Joe Wurzelbacher of Ohio who already owns a plumbing business.

http://www.politico.com/blogs/bensmith/1008/The_Joe_file.html?showall


So I guess Joe Wurzelbacher is not just a "regular Joe", after all.

I guess it's back to Joe Sixpack for McCain-Palin.

Frankly, I prefer Joe Biden. He's the real deal.

Subject: RE: BS: The Debates: Members Only
From: Ron Davies
Date: 16 Oct 08 - 08:58 AM

Added to which, it turns out it's unclear whether Joe was talking about a business which just grosses $250,000/ yr. Such a business would not see a tax increase under Obama's plan. According to the Obama campaign, the tax increase would only be levied on businesses which make $250,000 net profit/ yr.

And Joe Wurzelbacher has said that nobody, not even Bill Gates, should pay higher taxes.

So I think we know how reflective his ideas are of middle-class reality.

Subject: RE: BS: The Debates: Members Only
From: Azizi
Date: 16 Oct 08 - 09:00 AM

Here's a link to an article about Sarah Palin and her disability funding and advocacy:

http://specialchildren.about.com/gi/dynamic/offsite.htm?zi=1/XJ/Ya&sdn=specialchildren&zu=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.autismvox.com%2Fpalin

AutismVox
Palin and the Disability Community
by Kristina Chew, PhD on September 15th, 2008

**

Here's an excerpt from that article:

..."Some parents of children with disabilities are enthusiastic over Gov. Palin's pledge of support, but advocacy on behalf of the disability community has not been "a centerpiece of Ms. Palin's 20-months in office or any of her campaigns for office."

"I never heard Governor Palin say as governor, 'You have an advocate in Juneau,' " said Sonja Kerr, a lawyer specializing in disability law in Anchorage.

A spokeswoman for Palin would not elaborate on her decision to give disability issues prominent placement in her acceptance speech.

John McCain has voted against increasing federal special education funding, and also opposes legislation that would help states move people with disabilities from institutions into community living arrangements.

From a guest post by the directors of the Beach Center on Disability in Kansas:

When a young governor line-item vetoes six appropriations for community disability services or for accessibility modifications to public accommodations, that governor gives us reason to be skeptical about promises and prospective performance. When the appropriations totaled $749,000 in a state that has a huge budget surplus, and when the governor apparently knew at the time that her nephew has autism, that governor gives us special reason to doubt her commitment to people with special needs.

Yes, state funding for "intensive special needs children" in Alaska increased for Fiscal Year 2010. But it is not yet clear exactly who those children are, how many of them are the intended beneficiaries of the appropriation, and precisely what role the governor had in proposing the appropriation or influencing the legislature to appropriate the funds.

In a word, Gov. Palin's record on disability leaves us with our doubts about her promise.

It also prompts us to concentrate on the governor's dismissive mockery of community organizing and its portent for the disability community.

The truth is that community organizing benefits people with disabilities"...

Subject: RE: BS: The Debates: Members Only
From: Ron Davies
Date: 16 Oct 08 - 09:04 AM

Obama is also proposing a series of tax credits which would help small businesses.

He has proposed "a $3,000 tax credit for every new job that companies create in the United States over the next two years, a small business health tax credit on up to 50 percent of employee premiums paid by employers, and elimination of capital gains taxes on investments in small and start-up businesses."

Source: ABC News 16 Oct 2008.

Subject: RE: BS: The Debates: Members Only
From: GUEST,heric
Date: 16 Oct 08 - 09:43 AM

>And it's being reported that Joe's father Richard Wurzelbacher of Ohio is a contributor to a right wing conservative PAC, his uncle Randy is a McCain supporter, and there is a Joe Wurzelbacher of Ohio who already owns a plumbing business.<

Wow. If this all turns out to be true, how could McCain have run an any more cynical campaign. I wondered at the time who Joe wanted to buy the company from.

Subject: RE: BS: The Debates: Members Only
From: Azizi
Date: 16 Oct 08 - 09:59 AM

Here's more on "Joe The Plumber":

Martin Eisenstadt's Blog

Joe "the Plumber" Wurzelbacher related to Charles "the Crook" Keating. Oops.

October 15th, 2008 . by Marty

John McCain did great tonight in the debate. But every time John mentioned "Joe the Plumber," some of us in the campaign banged our heads against the wall. If Steve Schmidt had any hair left, I hear he would have been pulling it out tonight. He reportedly screamed at John's debate prep team tonight (out of earshot of reporters, of course). "You idiots - he's related to Charles Keating… of the Keating Five scandal!" They thought they had a real live Joe Six-Pack who's spurned Barack Obama's tax plan. But what they forgot to do was check on Joe Wurzelbacher's background.

Turns out that Joe Wurzelbacher from the Toledo event is a close relative of Robert Wurzelbacher of Milford, Ohio. Who's Robert Wurzelbacher? Only Charles Keating's son-in-law and the former senior vice president of American Continental, the parent company of the infamous Lincoln Savings and Loan. The now retired elder Wurzelbacher is also a major contributor to Republican causes giving well over $10,000 in the last few years.

Does any of this make Joe the Plumber a bad guy? Of course not. In fact, after that ill-fated night at the Watergate, he may finally be giving plumbers a good name. But at a debate where John goes full bore on Obama for guilt-by-association with William Ayers (and dodges a bullet by Obama not mentioning Keating Five), the press is going to bring it back front and center by midday tomorrow once they delve deeper into the most popular plumber in America".

http://www.eisenstadtgroup.com/2008/10/15/joe-the-plumber-wurzelbacher-related-to-charles-keating-oops/

Subject: RE: BS: The Debates: Members Only
From: TIA
Date: 16 Oct 08 - 10:02 AM

I also think I heard McCain say "We can eliminate our dependence on foreign oil by building 45 new nuclear plants, power plants, right away. We can store and we can reprocess. Senator Obama will tell you, as the extreme environmentalists do, it has to be safe."

So, apparently it is an extreme position to say that nuclear power has to be safe?

Does that mean that the "moderate" position is that it does not have to be safe?

In the words of Mugatu, "I feel like I'm on crazy pills".

Subject: RE: BS: The Debates: Members Only
From: Bill D
Date: 16 Oct 08 - 10:23 AM

Well....I would have wanted Obama to say a bit more on a couple of subjects, rather than just re-quoting some statistics I have heard 20 times...but.... it soon became evident he doing only the minimum needed to hold to his basic message and not take any chances. The goal, at this point in the campaign, is to WIN, not to introduce unpredictable variables. Kinda boring, but he has a nice lead, and McCain's campaign is doing a fine job of digging themselves a deeper hole.
He answered McCain clearly when necessary and allowed McCain to crawl out on limbs in a vain attempt to link Obama with ANYTHING shady. I'm sure it played well with the conservative base, just as choosing Palin did, but he did almost nothing to attract undecided voters.

   McCain tried valiantly to distance himself from the Bush years, but he has too much baggage with Bush's name still clearly visable on it. (I wanted to hear Obama say, "Gosh John, it looks like we are BOTH running against the Bush legacy, but I think I'm doing more credible job of it!")

...so...barring some very strange event, I feel like Barack Obama has a pretty good advantage now....and as I said before, I don't envy him for what he's getting into.

Subject: RE: BS: The Debates: Members Only
From: SINSULL
Date: 16 Oct 08 - 10:31 AM

The best of the three debates but not exactly riveting.

I nearly fell on the floor laughing when I heard that Palin is a role model for all American women.

Betcha she's not.

Subject: RE: BS: The Debates: Members Only
From: Bill D
Date: 16 Oct 08 - 10:34 AM

Oh,,right! Those "45 new nuclear plants".... There are VERY good reasons why no new nuclear plants have been built for years.

It takes a LOT of money to build one, and years to do so.
Sites are VERY hard to find, and many communities fight them. (NIMBY)
They require a lot of maintenance and training of staff.
The details and plans for storing of nuclear waste is NOT a settled matter.
They are serious targets for would-be terrorists.
They require a bureaucracy and an inspection program that is hard to impliment.

and....

Three Mile Island & Chernobyl

this is not to say that 'some' nuclear plants could not be built on a case-by-case analysis in the future, but 45 NOW is crazy.

Subject: RE: BS: The Debates: Members Only
From: irishenglish
Date: 16 Oct 08 - 10:35 AM

Some observations-true McCain did come out stronger, this clearly was his best debate, but the grimacing and facial expressions won't do him any favors. Obama definitely played it safe, staying on message, and I thought his best line of the night was when he said he could deal with hurt feelings between the two of them but what was more important were the issues. I know its a tactic, but it worked, people seeing that would think-damn, I can say anything to this guy and he's not going to take it personally.

Also, as SRS pointed out, Sarah Palin only has as much experience with special needs children as her child has been on this earth, which is not very long, so McCain's comments were a little off.
Obama's 100% negative ads was wrong, but I find it funny that McCain equates negative ads as being both policy dispute AND personal attacks. So are we now to believe that every ad for either candidate is a negative ad if the opponent is mentioned? I heard sappy violins when McCain claimed he was deeply hurt by John Lewis' comments.

Did anyone else catch McCain's repeating "climate change" a moment or two after Bob Schaeffer told them what they would be talking about? Also, it was kind of a trailing off statement, but in the abortion discussion, McCain said, he would not use litmus tests, but he did not think such a judge existed that could be fair and impartial who supported Roe v Wade. I didn't hear any pundits mention that one, but that is a huge statement to make. No litmus tests, but clearly if you support Roe v Wade, you cannot be a fair judge. Remarkable.

Subject: RE: BS: The Debates: Members Only
From: CarolC
Date: 16 Oct 08 - 10:41 AM

When McCain said "climate change" he was correcting the moderator, who said, "climate control".

Subject: RE: BS: The Debates: Members Only
From: Charley Noble
Date: 16 Oct 08 - 10:43 AM

McCain: "by building 45 new nuclear plants, power plants, right away."

The last nuclear power plant to be brought on line in the States, I believe, was the one in Seabrook, New Hampshire. The process took over 10 years, and one of the two proposed units was never completed. The cost over-runs were massive and the electricity generated is still the most expensive supply option in the New England grid.

Now, I expect such plants would be less expensive to capitalize if they were brought on-line "right away." In fact, why not contract with the Russians to build them and save even more money, or the North Koreans? Who gives a squat for public safety as long as we achieve "energy independence"?

Some (insert your favorite epithet) environmentalist shellbacks would argue that uranium mining and reprocessing uranium fuel generate a lot of green house gas and environmental radioactive waste, and that storage of high-level spent nuclear fuel and other low-level radioactive wastes raise further questions about the viability of the nuclear power option. And there will always be the risk of a catastrophic accident sometime, somewhere.

However, even Obama is willing to review the nuclear option, although he did not clarify that during the debate. I respect his intelligence but remain skeptical of this option.

Charley Noble

Subject: RE: BS: The Debates: Members Only
From: Big Mick
Date: 16 Oct 08 - 10:49 AM

Same here, Mary m'luv. My daughter hollered from the other room, "She's not a role model for me!!!".

Despite all the posturing from the right wing pundits, this thing is over. The single biggest mistake made by this man was his selection of Palin, but it really didn't matter who he picked. The fruits of the seeds sown over 20 years ago, in grand karmic fashion, have borne fruit, but it is a bitter fruit indeed for the conservative crowd. They were always best when they operated from an honorable place of respectful opposition. When I first started out in the political scene, over 30 years ago, we had a common goal and approached it from different places. We didn't question honor, integrity, patriotism, or values anywhere near as much as is done today. Gingrich, and Reagan, changed that. They labeled us, they used wedge issues, and all this done to divert the attention of The Great Middle from the real agenda, which was to dismantle all the regulations, and agencies, that had evolved to protect the average person from the dangers of unbridled capitalism. I can remember having to lobby legislators hard to stop the other side from removing the enforcement of OSHA. I remember the failed attempts to make NAFTA a real plus for the North American (Canada, Mexico, USA) economies, and watched frustratedly as they simply turned it into another tool for US capitalists to take advantage of poor folks in emerging countries.

My Gran used to tell me that when a fast talker was trying to get you to look one place, look in the other. The US voters, or at least a large portion of them, seem to have finally figured that out, even if it took damn near destroying the economy to do it.

McCain belongs to a different era. His time has come and gone. And the proof will be on November 4. On November 5, I intend to wake up, gloat, spend a few days rubbing salt in the wounds of those that supported the opposition, ........ and then join in with President Obama and get about the people's business. We have an economy to rescue, we have relationships in the world to rebuild, and our actions affect the lives of many more in this world than just us. I believe this young man, Barack Obama, will be a transcendent political figure. I believe he will give all he has to restoring our country to its place as a respected member/partner/leader in the world community. And I believe he will lead a move to get us back on the track of progressive movement towards a better, more perfect (not perfect but more perfect), union.

All the best,

Mick

Subject: RE: BS: The Debates: Members Only
From: Amos
Date: 16 Oct 08 - 10:55 AM

BEautifully put, you silver-tongued debbil, you.



A

Subject: RE: BS: The Debates: Members Only
From: irishenglish
Date: 16 Oct 08 - 10:55 AM

Thanks Carol, I apparently missed that one.

Subject: RE: BS: The Debates: Members Only
From: Charley Noble
Date: 16 Oct 08 - 11:00 AM

With regard to the plumber "Joe Wurzelbacher from the Toledo".

Is this an attempt by John McCain to recast his image once again, this time as "the plumber's helper"? If so, it's doomed to fail but it does evoke the awesome image of what his next big rally will look like as thousands, hundreds, and even dozens, of ardent supporters wave their plumber's helpers in the air.

Or is this attempt more of a subconsciousl reaction by McCain to where he feels his campaign is going, down the toilet!

I must view the Daily Show this evening and see if any of my quips are picked up!

Cheerily,
Charley Noble

Subject: RE: BS: The Debates: Members Only
From: SINSULL
Date: 16 Oct 08 - 11:04 AM

But guys we have safely run nuclear plants at sea for years.

Why did McCain stick out his tongue and grimace after the debate while he and his wife were standing on the stage?

Palin has cost McCain votes. Many of us who were wavering took it as an affront to our intelligence. Did he really think that she would get him the female vote? Reminds me of when bush chose Quayle and the rumor was that he resembled Redford so women would vote for him. It ended when Redford threatend a lawsuit, I believe.

Subject: RE: BS: The Debates: Members Only
From: GUEST,heric
Date: 16 Oct 08 - 11:25 AM

Yes, McCain was correcting the moderator by saying "climate change" but he didn't score any genius points with it.

In fact, he reminded me of my grandma reading highway signs out loud after she became senile. Just a glimmer of awareness.

Subject: RE: BS: The Debates: Members Only
From: Amos
Date: 16 Oct 08 - 11:28 AM

"Plumber's Friend McCain"??? LOL! Ya know, he does fit the role rather well--he requires a lot of pull to get going, he needs to be handled continuously, he deals in sewage, and even when he's good he sucks.


A

Subject: RE: BS: The Debates: Members Only
From: Charley Noble
Date: 16 Oct 08 - 12:06 PM

Amos-

And "Joe" may even inspire a new campaign ditty:

McCain is the plumber's friend!
With friends like him where will it end?
Will his campaign end with a bang or an epithet,
Or just swirl and gurgle down the toilet?

Cheerily,
Charley Ignoble

Subject: RE: BS: The Debates: Members Only
From: Azizi
Date: 16 Oct 08 - 12:07 PM

Turns out that Joe the Plumber may indeed be registered to vote in Ohio:

"Questions were being raised Thursday morning whether Mr. Wurzelbacher is a registered voter.

Linda Howe, executive director of the Lucas County Board of Elections, said a Samuel Joseph Worzelbacher, whose address and age match Joe the Plumber's, registered in Lucas County on Sept. 10, 1992. He voted in his first primary on March 4, 2008, registering as a Republican.

Ms. Howe said that the name may be misspelled in the database"

http://www.toledoblade.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20081016/NEWS09/810160418/-1/NEWS



-snip-

That article didn't address all those other rumors about Joe The Plumber's family ties such as his possible relationship with Robert Worselbacher who was involved in the Keating 5 scandal.

Subject: RE: BS: The Debates: Members Only
From: Azizi
Date: 16 Oct 08 - 12:12 PM

Correction-

..."Robert Wurzelbacher who was involved in the Keating 5 scandal".

Subject: RE: BS: The Debates: Members Only
From: Charley Noble
Date: 16 Oct 08 - 12:12 PM

Azizi-

"Say it isn't so, Joe!"

My suggested title for a new thread if the rumors of a connection between Samuel Joseph Worzelbacher, the plumber, and Charles Keating are confirmed.

Charley Noble

Subject: RE: BS: The Debates: Members Only
From: Charley Noble
Date: 16 Oct 08 - 12:13 PM

"Robert Wurzelbacher"

400!

CN