BS: One compelling reason for a god?

Subject: RE: BS: One compelling reason for a god?
From: *daylia*
Date: 10 Apr 07 - 09:29 AM

Seeing angels in anything is hallucination

This is not true, Mrzzy, but I doubt any explanation I could give would satisfy anyone here. So, I'll just say I respectfully disagree, and leave it at that.

Cheers,

daylia

Subject: RE: BS: One compelling reason for a god?
From: Mrrzy
Date: 10 Apr 07 - 08:57 AM

I respectfully disagree, Little Hawk. Seeing angels in anything is hallucination. The dawning wisdom we are hoping for is when people see that there is no divine, imminent or not, and we're stuck with what we have, and should therefore make the best of it. Or was your tongue in your cheek, as the reference to Chongo might imply?

Subject: RE: BS: One compelling reason for a god?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 10 Apr 07 - 08:37 AM

Ah, yes! To see the angel in the ape. (or in the worm, or the fish, or the cloud) There would be the moment of dawning wisdom. Everything, not just man, is said to be filled with the presence of the imminent Divine.

(Just ask Chongo about that.) ;-)

Subject: RE: BS: One compelling reason for a god?
From: *daylia*
Date: 10 Apr 07 - 07:23 AM

Here it is ...

THE APE AND GOD

Son put a poser up to me
That made me scratch my head:
"God made the whole wide world," quoth he;
"That's right, my boy," I said.
Said son: "He mad the mountains soar,
And all the plains lie flat;
But Dad, what did he do before
                               He did all that?

Said I: "Creation was his biz;
He set the stars to shine;
The sun and moon and all that is
Were His unique design.
The Cosmos is his concrete thought,
The Universe his chore..."
Said Son: "I understand, but what
                               Did He before?"

I gave it up; I could not cope
With his enquiring prod,
And must admit I've little hope
Of understanding God.
Indeed I find more to my mind
The monkey in the tree
In whose crude form Nature defined
                               Our human destiny.

Thought I: "Why search for Deity
In visionary shape?
'Twould better be if we could see
The angel in the ape.
Let mystic seek a God above:
Far wiser he who delves,
To find in kindliness and love
                               God in ourselves."

- Robert William Service

Subject: RE: BS: One compelling reason for a god?
From: *daylia*
Date: 10 Apr 07 - 07:22 AM

One more post to 300? Holy jumpin jehosophat! Gotta think of something....

Subject: RE: BS: One compelling reason for a god?
From: Amos
Date: 09 Apr 07 - 08:46 PM

Subject: RE: BS: One compelling reason for a god?
From: Mrrzy
Date: 09 Apr 07 - 08:14 PM

OOh, Amos, good ones. I've taken to exclaiming Suppurating Pustules! when I need a multisyllabic rackin frackin varmint time of thing...

Subject: RE: BS: One compelling reason for a god?
From: Amos
Date: 09 Apr 07 - 04:07 PM

Hell, use snakes, pigs, roaches, vipers...there's plenty oof investive born from our interactions with other life forms.

A

Subject: RE: BS: One compelling reason for a god?
From: Bee
Date: 09 Apr 07 - 02:19 PM

Hey! Leave the weasel family out of it - they are fine upstanding animals.

Subject: RE: BS: One compelling reason for a god?
From: Amos
Date: 09 Apr 07 - 01:37 PM

Oh, Mrrz, surely with a little research you can find a whole palate of rich, rare terms for things you want to condemn or vilify. Execrable, worthless, mind-sucking, weasel-like, fornicating, deathful little so-and-sos don't need to be dignified with divinely inspired hooliganisms. You can draw from a wide array of sexual and digestive metaphors, to start with.


A

Subject: RE: BS: One compelling reason for a god?
From: Donuel
Date: 09 Apr 07 - 01:32 PM

Perhaps to satisfy this month's issue of Scientific American magazine which has an article on the last back page. It is Bayes Theorum being applied to the possibliity of showing the likelyhood of the existence of God.

Subject: RE: BS: One compelling reason for a god?
From: Mrrzy
Date: 09 Apr 07 - 12:42 PM

Because I am tired of perpetuating the myth as reality. But it really does cramp one's swearing style - can't have a godawful day, etc. One is reduced to words like Very for emphasis. Booooooooooooring.

Subject: RE: BS: One compelling reason for a god?
From: Bee
Date: 09 Apr 07 - 12:23 PM

Why bother eliminating them? There's nothing wrong with referencing mythology, we do it all the time in our language: Thor's day, Saturn's day, Wodin's day, month of Mars, etc.

Subject: RE: BS: One compelling reason for a god?
From: Mrrzy
Date: 09 Apr 07 - 11:59 AM

Yeah, I am still trying to eliminate god, damn, heaven and hell from my swearing. Leaves me with fuck and shit and not much else, but it's a small price to pay!

Subject: RE: BS: One compelling reason for a god?
From: *daylia*
Date: 09 Apr 07 - 07:59 AM

Frank, there is much controversy over Mozart's religiousity. Born and raised as a Catholic, he was certainly, as you point out, a freethinker who often found himself at odds with his powerful patrons. There is evidence suggesting he joined the Freemasons as a young man, including (some say) the Masonic references and imagery in his opera The Magic Flute.

References to his own spiritual leanings are found in his letters, although some suggest his expressions of faith and piety were only an attempt to appease his omnipotent, disapproving father. However, he did continue to write religious works after his tenure with the Archbishop of Salzburg, including the famous Mass in C Minor. His last work was the unfinished Requiem (or Mass for the Dead).

At any rate, I brought Mozart into the discussion as an example of how a creator might use "a process of creation that proceeds as if HE was not there" -- processes including everything from writing down a musical score, to designing the structure of self-replicating DNA    :-)    It was not my intention to pick apart his personal spirituality!

BUt it is intriguing to ponder just how such undying musical genius, artistic beauty and joie de vivre could be manifested through a mere "ape-shaped conglomeration of bacteria". Makes me feel a little, uh ... reverent ....

Subject: RE: BS: One compelling reason for a god?
From: John O'L
Date: 09 Apr 07 - 04:37 AM

Very cryptic, wld. Life is a crossword. But we'll not have a cross word between us I hope, God willing and weather permitting...

Subject: RE: BS: One compelling reason for a god?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 09 Apr 07 - 04:28 AM

an anagram for dog

gdo and odg make no sort of sense.

so if you get a clue like 'an upset dog' or a 'mad dog', your mind zeros in on the answer.

sometimes god is the answer to our problems.

Subject: RE: BS: One compelling reason for a god?
From: Amos
Date: 08 Apr 07 - 07:57 PM

What I want to know s where these aspersions that are used for casting are grown. It must be a huge industry but you never hear about them on the stock exchanges, or in venture capital circles. Maybe its an underground thing? I think people would pay top dollar for really fresh, well-formed aspersions, especially inside the Beltway where aspersion-casting is a major indoor sport.

A

Subject: RE: BS: One compelling reason for a god?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 08 Apr 07 - 06:58 PM

Well then, I see it much the same way you do, Frank.

Subject: RE: BS: One compelling reason for a god?
From: Stringsinger
Date: 08 Apr 07 - 06:08 PM

L.H. I try not to use any religious reference when swearing. The only thing that slips out once in a while is "holy shit" which still has a religious reference.

I don't like the idea of any person for any reason placing themselves above others. I see Christians who claim they are better than non-believers, however. I don't do this with religionists at all. I think there are plenty of religionists who are intelligent.

I like the idea that the people in Holland have. They have one vulgar word that can apply to everything. It's a thumb-hit-by-hammer word and it has no religious connotations.

There is a strong danger here of generalization. They are this or they are that. It doesn't enlighten anyone and casting any aspersions any where is not productive.

But a legitimate critique of religion itself is not only appropriate but necessary particularly when Separation of Church and State is at stake.

Believers and non-believers are served by a decent dialogue on this subject without pointing fingers or casting aspersions.

Frank Hamilton

Subject: RE: BS: One compelling reason for a god?
From: Bee
Date: 08 Apr 07 - 05:35 PM

"So there you have it. Both God and Jesus turn out to be quite useful for the average atheist, because they give him strong words to use when under great stress...and also they give him something not to believe in, and then he can feel smarter and better informed than people who do believe in things like God and/or Jesus, and everyone wants to have a few things like that, don't they? ;-) " - Little Hawk

Okay, LH, there's a huge April snowstorm littering my yard, so my sense of humour's a touch overworked: the first part of that was cute, but let me assure you, I, at least, don't feel any brighter than the average devout Episcopalian, and I rather resent your insinuation. <stomps off with a snow shovel, grumbling...>

Subject: RE: BS: One compelling reason for a god?
From: Amos
Date: 08 Apr 07 - 04:35 PM

Jiminy Christmas, Little Hack!! I mean, Jeeze!! Goldangit all, buddy!

A

Subject: RE: BS: One compelling reason for a god?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 08 Apr 07 - 03:52 PM

Indeed. After all, my father was a complete atheist, but he still liked yelling "GODDAMITT!" when he stubbed his toe or anything like that...

He would also say, "JEE-ZUSS!" (with heavy emphasis) when really surprised or astounded by anything. This, despite the fact that he really had no interest or belief in Jesus whatsoever.

So there you have it. Both God and Jesus turn out to be quite useful for the average atheist, because they give him strong words to use when under great stress...and also they give him something not to believe in, and then he can feel smarter and better informed than people who do believe in things like God and/or Jesus, and everyone wants to have a few things like that, don't they? ;-)

Subject: RE: BS: One compelling reason for a god?
From: Riginslinger
Date: 08 Apr 07 - 03:35 PM

There has to be somebody's name to take in vain when you hit your thumb with a hammer.

Subject: RE: BS: One compelling reason for a god?
From: Stringsinger
Date: 08 Apr 07 - 12:54 PM

The deal with Mozart, DaVinci, Michelangelo,and many well-known Renaissance and Classical painters, composers etc. is that they knew which side their bread was buttered on and they didn't want to go against Mother Church because their livelihoods would be terminated by their religious patrons.

If you examine their lives, however, you find that they were probably Freethinkers who played politics. Had to to survive. So they quoted religious stuff a lot and painted religious images to pay the bills.

Even today, you can't be free with certain art forms that run contrary to religious dogma without repercussions from many in the government as well as private sector.

People get really upset over a figure of Jesus in piss at an art museum. So what? I am equally disgusted at the Ten Commandments being displayed in the government buildings
in Dixie Florida and consider that a worse thing because it denegrates every other person who doesn't regard this icon with reverence in a country that's supposed to have religious and intellectual freedom.

Frank Hamilton

Subject: RE: BS: One compelling reason for a god?
From: Stringsinger
Date: 08 Apr 07 - 12:41 PM

Daylia,

We are highly evolved "ape-shaped conglomerations of bacteria" which doesn't denegrate our evolution one bit.

Most of what we know of the universe is composed of not just the matter that we see but sub-atomic particles that we can't see.

Dawkins uses a great analogy. We (people) are like the women in burquas. We can only see a limited view above us (macrocosm) and below us (microcosm).

We should celebrate our evolution and do so by caring for human beings in this life and forget about a "private elevator to heaven" or an imaginary "afterlife".

Mudcatters,

Happy hippity hoppity.

Frank Hamilton

Subject: RE: BS: One compelling reason for a god?
From: Mrrzy
Date: 08 Apr 07 - 12:29 PM

Being otherwise pretty quiet... is everybody in church (*BG*)?

Subject: RE: BS: One compelling reason for a god?
From: Amos
Date: 08 Apr 07 - 11:55 AM

Now you're being silly.

A

Subject: RE: BS: One compelling reason for a god?
From: GUEST,ItSelf
Date: 08 Apr 07 - 08:01 AM

Nice!

Subject: RE: BS: One compelling reason for a god?
From: GUEST,HerSelf
Date: 08 Apr 07 - 07:50 AM

Not.

Subject: RE: BS: One compelling reason for a god?
From: GUEST,HimSelf
Date: 08 Apr 07 - 07:08 AM

Nuff.

Subject: RE: BS: One compelling reason for a god?
From: Mrrzy
Date: 07 Apr 07 - 09:54 PM

But biologically we *are* apes - fact, again. The data are:
-the new world monkeys (who would never be bipedal as they evolved the prehensile tail and have 5 limbs) and old world monkeys diverged
-Later, a line of old world monkeys lost their tails entirely (we call these tailless monkeys "apes"
-Then gibbons diverged from our ancestral ape
-Then orang-utans diverged from our ancestral ape
-Then hominids diverged from the ancestral ape; these went on to split up into several lineages, one of which was ancestor to us
-Then gorillas and chimpanzees diverged from their ancestral ape, who was not ancestor to us; at about this time our ancestral hominid diverged from the rest of the hominids
-Then the chimps diverged into what we call chimps and bonobos or pygmy chimps, who are more like hominids than either chimp chimps or gorillas (frontal sex, female sexual availablity outside of estrus); at about this time our we became the only hominids around. This was about 5 million years ago.
So we are the hominid apes, but it makes no reality-based sense to refer to the other apes as Apes and call us something else.

The gibbons are the lesser apes. All the rest, us included, are the Great Apes. The great apes have interestingly different minds:
Humans watch the others, write down what they do, and write about it:
Leave a screwdriver around, and:
-The gorillas will first be afraid of it, then try to eat it, then ignore it
-The chimps will all fight over it, then whoever wins will play with it, doing everything imaginable with it except drive screws.
-The bonobos will all have sex and then all play with it, doing everything imaginable with it except drive screws.
-The orang-utans will hide it, and then when you're gone, use it to dismantle their cage.

Subject: RE: BS: One compelling reason for a god?
From: Bill D
Date: 07 Apr 07 - 09:31 PM

Why SHOULD anyone? If all the scholars and theologians for thousands of years haven't come up with one where everyone said "Ahh, SURE!", why would this bunch of silly amateurs be able to satisfy you?

... and you know, you have never made it clear which way YOU were leaning & why.

Subject: RE: BS: One compelling reason for a god?
From: Fergie
Date: 07 Apr 07 - 09:25 PM

Little Hawk I don't want somebody to give me an answer to the God question, I'm just wondering if anybody can.
Fergie

Subject: RE: BS: One compelling reason for a god?
From: Amos
Date: 07 Apr 07 - 05:33 PM

I don't think Dawkins would subscribe to the "nothing more than..." porposition you assert above, Daylia. He must respect human intelligence as he makes his living exercising it, afer all. He is talking about structure.


A

Subject: RE: BS: One compelling reason for a god?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 07 Apr 07 - 04:00 PM

Fergie, why do you want someone to give you an answer to that question?

Subject: RE: BS: One compelling reason for a god?
From: *daylia*
Date: 07 Apr 07 - 01:45 PM

Wow. Almost 300 insightful, intelligent and thought-provoking posts later, and you're still asking??

Hmm -- maybe it's time for a new question, for instance Why should I believe there is such a thing as an honest question from Fergie?
Or how bout, give me one compelling reason to believe Fergie is not a troll.

Or maybe, just maybe, this thread is living proof that Dawkins is right: we are nothing more than ape-shaped conglomerations of bacteria   

:-)

Subject: RE: BS: One compelling reason for a god?
From: Georgiansilver
Date: 07 Apr 07 - 01:27 PM

Sorry if that is how it came across Fergie....will PM you.

Subject: RE: BS: One compelling reason for a god?
From: Fergie
Date: 07 Apr 07 - 01:17 PM

Georgiansilver that was a very trite and meaningless answer to my original question, which was;

Why should I believe that there is such a thing as a God?

Subject: RE: BS: One compelling reason for a god?
From: Georgiansilver
Date: 07 Apr 07 - 12:05 PM

One compelling reason for a God.......mmmmm...let me think now...is it perhaps because there is one?

Subject: RE: BS: One compelling reason for a god?
From: *daylia*
Date: 07 Apr 07 - 08:24 AM

Oops, I've forgotten Bill with all this monkeyin around!

Is it any wonder that we skeptics would rather just stick to "I dunno, so I won't worry over it."?

No it isn't. I come to the same conclusion, over and over, and I'm better at not worrying about it these days too. A Native elder once told me that worry only brings gray hairs, and I've got the scalp to prove it.

The real importance of the "...proceeds as though he wasn't there." idea is that, despite no real indication FROM a creator as to how we should behave or think1, we have built a complex set of doctrines...in fact, multiple sets of complex doctrines...all claiming to interpret the 'will' of this creator. The point has been made by others that most of these interpretations seem suspiciously to favor the interpreters

Yes they do, in the same way that history is always written by the winners. I don't care for so-called divine "instructions" or "rules" much though. I'm naturally a rebel and I NEED my freedom -- and that's one reason why I prefer exploring and practicing personal spirituality to organized religions. Another is I have no use for the politics. Just distracts me from what I need and want to be focussing on.

I think I have turned Mudcat into my diary/journal, where I muse and refine my own thoughts as I meander thru this microcosm of the ideas of others. This way, I get feedback and ideas and have a 'focus' for a lttle while. I envy those who CAN write books and construct complete analyses on topics.)

I do know exactly what you mean about using the Cat as an online journal, a chance to air my thoughts and ideas and get some feedback on them. It has it's ups and downs though -- growing a thick enough skin is required! I learn a lot through posting here, particularly about myself, and about how to handle differences in a productive and friendly manner.

ANd I can relate to what you said about envying those who CAN write books and construct complete analyses -- someday, maybe, I'll be able to organize the reams and REAMS of information, ideas and personal experiences I would love to write about into a coherent, concise, workable format ....

someday .... *sigh*

thanks for your thoughts Bill,

daylia

Subject: RE: BS: One compelling reason for a god?
From: *daylia*
Date: 07 Apr 07 - 07:47 AM

Right on, Bee. I do see where you're coming from, even though I'm about as likely to start calling my cat a tiger as I am to start calling myself an ape.

(not very)

But Dawkins, now, he's a totally different animal ...   :-)

Subject: RE: BS: One compelling reason for a god?
From: Bee
Date: 07 Apr 07 - 07:40 AM

Okay, Daylia.

All the evidence I've read points to all animals having descended from primeval colony forming bacteria like creatures, and almost all scientists agree that humans are members of the Ape family: that we are a species of Ape, closely related to chimpanzees, gorillas, bonobos. In fact, you needn't even accept evolutionary theory to agree that we are apes, just as tigers, house cats, cheetahs and lions are species of cats.

This is not to start an argument, just to clarify where I'm coming from. ;-)

Subject: RE: BS: One compelling reason for a god?
From: *daylia*
Date: 07 Apr 07 - 07:28 AM

I seemed to me that you were dismissing evolution from single celled organisms, common descent, and human kinship with apes,

I was dismissing Dawkin's treatment of same, not the processes of evolution. My own cells consist of much more than bacteria (or they did as of the last time I studied biology, in 1996). And evolution does not mean that you or I or anyone else is an ape, as Dawkins suggests ie We admit that we are like apes, but we seldom realise that we ARE apes... If Dawkins (or anyone else) wants to believe he's an ape, he's most welcome to fill his boots. Looks like he's making a handsome profit from it, at least.

daylia

Subject: RE: BS: One compelling reason for a god?
From: robomatic
Date: 07 Apr 07 - 01:23 AM

Q: Why God?

A: Cause YOU ain't God and I('m willing to admit that I) ain't God and (with apologies to Mel Brooks) it ain't a guy Phil-

Q: Why ONE God?

A: One's enough.

Subject: RE: BS: One compelling reason for a god?
From: John O'L
Date: 07 Apr 07 - 12:00 AM

Hard to imagine any less likely, unless it's the two of them combined...

Subject: RE: BS: One compelling reason for a god?
From: Amos
Date: 06 Apr 07 - 11:26 PM

And might even be the least probable two!


A

Subject: RE: BS: One compelling reason for a god?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 06 Apr 07 - 10:04 PM

There are a great many possibilities for the origin of life as we know it. Evolution (on this one little planet) and creationism (on this one little planet) are only 2 of them.

Subject: RE: BS: One compelling reason for a god?
From: Bee
Date: 06 Apr 07 - 09:45 PM

Daylia, perhaps I misread your post of 8:20 a.m. I seemed to me that you were dismissing evolution from single celled organisms, common descent, and human kinship with apes, so I guessed you might hold some form of creationist view, of some cultural tradition.

Subject: RE: BS: One compelling reason for a god?
From: Amos
Date: 06 Apr 07 - 08:10 PM

The boundary layer between what fits the mechanical model Bill likes to stick with -- because it is repeatable and you can lean on it -- and what lies outside of that model is full of things that slip over into extrasensory, bigger-than-life, out-of-body knowing and such, which are then, usually, hastily sppressed back across the line faster than an illegal immigrant in southern Arizona.

That's unfortunate for many important reasons, but it doesn;t really do anything to disprove the reality of those events.

A