 sj |
||
|
||
BS: One compelling reason for a god?
|
|
|
Subject: RE: BS: One compelling reason for a god? From: *daylia* Date: 03 Apr 07 - 09:17 AM Every time I look in the mirror I see a compelling reasons for a god as in omigod what a miracle! Or (more often) omigod where did THAT come from ... or omigod go back to bed ... |
|
Subject: RE: BS: One compelling reason for a god? From: beardedbruce Date: 03 Apr 07 - 09:21 AM Bee-dubya-ell, When I used to go to synagogue, we would have pastries, bagels, cream cheese, lox, and pickled herring afterwards. You should consider a change in faith. Just donuts???? |
|
Subject: RE: BS: One compelling reason for a god? From: GUEST,rock chick Date: 03 Apr 07 - 09:28 AM We all need to believe in something better at some point in our lives, if that means believing in 'a God', which ever one it may be, and it gives you the strength you are looking for, or need, then that is a good enough reason. If you believe when you die that is the complete end and there is nothing else once you die then live life to the full now as you won't be able to improve on it elsewhere, wherever that may, or may not be. rc |
|
Subject: RE: BS: One compelling reason for a god? From: Amos Date: 03 Apr 07 - 09:57 AM Fergie: The only reason you should is your preference to have one. Lacking that, there is no reason. Your question has been answered many times here. Be honest. A |
|
Subject: RE: BS: One compelling reason for a god? From: Bee Date: 03 Apr 07 - 10:04 AM Beardedbruce, just a change of church would do - my family's church is famous for their strawberry teas and various suppers (I don't need the religion, but the homemade biscuits and baked goods could be described as heavenly). |
|
Subject: RE: BS: One compelling reason for a god? From: beardedbruce Date: 03 Apr 07 - 10:06 AM As good a reason as any. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: One compelling reason for a god? From: Bill D Date: 03 Apr 07 - 11:54 AM Bee-dubya-ell mentions Pascal. 'Pascal's Wager' suggests that it is simply a safer bet....but as Walter Kaufmann (philosopher at Princeton years ago) pointed out, Pascal had only 4 possibilities in his list of wagers & outcomes. There are MANY others....maybe 'God' doesn't want to be worshipped and has 'godly contempt' for anyone who would waste their time building shrines. Maybe (quoting Kaufmann) "he reserves a special place in Hell for those who go to Mass". Maybe there ARE multiple, competing gods who take turns running eternity... The problem with Pascal's Wager is that it limits the wager to a narrow set of possibilities under classical Christian doctrine. ....but it (going to Hell if you don't) IS one reason to believe. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: One compelling reason for a god? From: Fergie Date: 03 Apr 07 - 12:00 PM Amos If you think that the question I posed: Why should I believe there is such a thing as a God? has been answered somewhere in the previous 157 or so posts please cut and paste the answer into a further post so that I can see what it is that I have missed. Fergus |
|
Subject: RE: BS: One compelling reason for a god? From: Amos Date: 03 Apr 07 - 12:13 PM There is only one reason, Ferg: personal preference. A |
|
Subject: RE: BS: One compelling reason for a god? From: Bee-dubya-ell Date: 03 Apr 07 - 12:34 PM Okay, Fergie. I, for one, give up. If this is supposed to be some sort of guessing game, you give us the answer! A number of thoughtful, well-educated people have attempted to answer your question to the best of their abilities. Some have attempted to give you direct answers while others have posted thoughts about their own personal beliefs so that you might "read between the lines" and, so, come to your own conclusions. You've posed a question that greater minds than any who post here have pondered for thousands of years and nobody has ever been able to answer it in a fashion that would convert a non-believer into a believer. Either accept the responses in the spirit in which they are given, or piss off. You're starting to sound very much like a child who simply won't find a parent's explanation adequate and keeps asking, "But why, Mommy, why?" |
|
Subject: RE: BS: One compelling reason for a god? From: Amos Date: 03 Apr 07 - 01:08 PM Actually, there is a deeper answer, which is summed up as 'personal preference'. It is that you should believe such a thing purely and only because you desire to experience what such a reality feels like. A |
|
Subject: RE: BS: One compelling reason for a god? From: Bill D Date: 03 Apr 07 - 01:11 PM ...and maybe the answer is.."there isn't any" |
|
Subject: RE: BS: One compelling reason for a god? From: Peace Date: 03 Apr 07 - 01:42 PM I suppose I get away believing in God because I don't see God the way Its interpreted here (for the most part). God is not some guy named Vinnie who wears a trenchcoat and has a bulge in his armpit. God doesn't give a rat's ass about the daily, weekly , yearly affairs of the human race. God is an ideal to be achieved, not a fait accompli who now exists to worry about my sorry ass. God is not about one-up-manship on a website. Years ago in a testing I had to break some bricks: fist, elbow, foot. They were about 1 1/4" thick, 12" long and 8" wide and made of some kinda cement. I know many people here could do a few (maybe many) of them without cracking a sweat, but initially it seemed to me that there was a mental barrier to overcome. I mean, they were BRICKS. We build shit outta bricks: houses, driveways, even patios. The added impetus to succeed with the break is that if ya miss the break you will hurt yourself. So you can't miss. We all know about the house of straw, the house of wood, the house of brick and which one was left standing. Anyway, I called on something 'higher' than myself. (This was in the 1980s. If it had been the 1960s, there WAS nothing higher than myself.) That's the thing I call God. I believe God always ansers our prayers--and sometimes the answer is no. Have a good day all. I am outta here. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: One compelling reason for a god? From: *daylia* Date: 03 Apr 07 - 01:49 PM Bill, do you mean "... there isn't any ...." answer? |
|
Subject: RE: BS: One compelling reason for a god? From: Joe Offer Date: 03 Apr 07 - 01:49 PM Well, Fergie, I guess if your question is this:
I have to say that for me, faith is something completely different from what the fundamentalists see as faith. And from my perspective, it seems most atheists have the same view of faith the fundamentalists have - and if that's what faith is, then the atheists are right in rejecting it. What I see as faith is something that resides much deeper inside me, something that really can't (and shouldn't) be rationally defined. It is the experience of a Presence that is both beyond and within me, and all the words in the world can't convey it to you unless you see it for yourself and it makes sense for you. All I can say is that if you see people of faith whom you respect, watch them. If you like what you see, look further. Don't look for explanations and doctrines - real faith is far deeper than words. The doctrines and explanations may be helpful in the primary stages of faith and in the examination of faith, but faith is not doctrine or the acceptance of doctrine. And it's not something you choose - for the most part, it just comes to you, or it doesn't. And I think you'll also find that for people of real faith, they have more questions than answers, and "absolute truth" is a concept that is completely foreign to them. Faith is an exploration, not an answer. But for those of us who have faith, it adds a wonderful dimension of meaning to life and to the mysteries of life that we encounter. -Joe- |
|
Subject: RE: BS: One compelling reason for a god? From: Amos Date: 03 Apr 07 - 02:15 PM And I, too, share Joe's sense of faith and what it means to the soul. Imagine that! I may not personify its meaning, or use the same language to talk about it, but I consider that this kind of fully conscious faith is an almost magical spiritual strength, not at all realted to blind acceptance of random authoritarian dictums. I don't hold with faith in dogma. But I have a great faith in life and the universe which I believe is on the same wavelength. A |
|
Subject: RE: BS: One compelling reason for a god? From: Little Hawk Date: 03 Apr 07 - 02:28 PM You asked, Fergie, "Why should I believe there is such a thing as a God?" There IS no reason, in my opinion, why you should, any more than there's a reason why you should like green shirts or fly radio control airplanes. It's optional. You are entirely free to believe or not believe that there is such a thing as a God. No penalties are attached to this matter. It's up to you. If you meant, "What evidence is there that would convince me that there is a God?", well, that depends on you, not on the evidence. Different people are responsive to different forms of evidence, and we all have our own unique way of dealing with personal experiences. If your unique way convinces you that there is no God, fine!....that, again, is entirely up to you. This Universe is not a spiritual dictatorship that demands obedience to party line. You can believe whatever the heck you want to, as far as I'm concerned. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: One compelling reason for a god? From: Mrrzy Date: 03 Apr 07 - 02:37 PM But there ARE penalties attached to blindly believing in the supernatural despite all evidence, just as there are penalties to any other delusion. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: One compelling reason for a god? From: GUEST,meself Date: 03 Apr 07 - 02:44 PM Excellent post, Joe. And I think this point of Little Hawk's is an important addendum: "Different people are responsive to different forms of evidence". What is moving and compelling to me, may leave you cold, and vice versa. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: One compelling reason for a god? From: Little Hawk Date: 03 Apr 07 - 03:12 PM "But there ARE penalties attached to blindly believing in the supernatural despite all evidence, just as there are penalties to any other delusion." Yes, Mrzzy, like the delusion that being presented with a choice between voting Republican or Democratic is a viable way of maintaining real democracy... ;-) (this one carries really severe penalties!) Or like the delusion called the "trickle-down" theory... Or like the delusion that fame and wealth will make you happy.... Or like the delusion that unchecked free market forces will automatically solve all of humanity's problems and make everything better... It's endless, really. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: One compelling reason for a god? From: GUEST,meself Date: 03 Apr 07 - 03:41 PM What's the difference between BLINDLY believing in the supernatural and merely believing in the supernatural? I have known many people who have believed in some form or another - or many forms - of the supernatural, and I don't see that most of them have paid penalties any worse than most of the rest of us pay bumbling through this life as best we can ... |
|
Subject: RE: BS: One compelling reason for a god? From: Bill D Date: 03 Apr 07 - 03:45 PM *daylia*...I meant, in response to the question, "maybe there isn't any compelling reason" TO believe. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: One compelling reason for a god? From: Bill D Date: 03 Apr 07 - 03:47 PM and actually, that is rather self-evident..almost a tautology, if you will. We are NOT 'compelled'. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: One compelling reason for a god? From: Stringsinger Date: 03 Apr 07 - 03:49 PM Ferus, You shouldn't have to believe in it if you don't want to. No law says you have to. This is an unaswerable question because it assumes that you are being forced to believe. You are not. Now if you had asked the question, "is there such a thing as a god", then you would have had your questions answered, maybe not to your satisfaction but it seems to me that people on this thread have done a pretty good job in answering that from their own perspectives. One compelling reason for a god is that it might make for interesting fantasy novels or movies or a great Greek play or The Saint Matthew Passion. Again, there are no compelling reasons if you don't believe. If you do believe, then the compelling reason is that it's a person's decision to believe or not. The compelling reason, therefore, is The Separation of Church and State. In the US, you can believe whatever you like including in the existence of unicorns or flying teapots in the sky. But the right of religious freedom is built into the American Constitution which was founded as an antidote to religious tyranny. And the right not to believe was built in for the same reason. Frank Hamilton "Why should I believe there is such a thing as a God?" |
|
Subject: RE: BS: One compelling reason for a god? From: Joe Offer Date: 03 Apr 07 - 03:57 PM The fundamentalists and, I think, the atheists, see faith as buying into an ideology. There's another path, an exploration into what is beyond us. This can be done within a religious context, or a non-religious and perhaps even a non-theistic context; and also within a wide variety of religious contexts. This other path of exploration demands openness, and it is marked by a tolerance and a desire to learn from those who see things differently. It does tend to clash with ideological people, because ideologues can't handle tolerance and questioning and uncertainty. I call the goal of that path of exploration "God." Others use other names and other methods of exploration, but I think the goal is the same. And those who seek, find a unity with other seekers - a unity in diversity. -Joe- |
|
Subject: RE: BS: One compelling reason for a god? From: Marion Date: 03 Apr 07 - 04:03 PM If you meant, "What evidence is there that would convince me that there is a God?", well, that depends on you, not on the evidence. That's a great line, Little Hawk, and I may have to borrow it sometime. You've made the point I was trying to make very succinctly. When I was a devout Christian, back in the day, I hated the idea of Pascal's wager. Two reasons: 1. It seems so cynical; anyone who did feel inspired to adopt a religion by this argument couldn't really be genuine in that religion. 2. It assumes that if you believe in God/religion and it turns out to be false, that's OK cause it didn't cost you anything. But if you're doing Christianity right, it DOES cost you. Marion |
|
Subject: RE: BS: One compelling reason for a god? From: Thomas the Rhymer Date: 03 Apr 07 - 04:04 PM Because... acceptance of the existence of God is the beginning of the first step towards our global spiritual human renaissance... Get on... or get out of the way. ttr |
|
Subject: RE: BS: One compelling reason for a god? From: Bill D Date: 03 Apr 07 - 04:12 PM What in the name of....ummmm...whatever....is "a global spiritual human renaissance...? And why would I want to walk toward it if it is anything like the OLD types of spiritualty? And regarding "get on...or get out of the way"....as with Pascal's wager, there are more options. My option is standing in the road explaining the options. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: One compelling reason for a god? From: Mrrzy Date: 03 Apr 07 - 04:47 PM One other thing I like about these threads is the time zone effect - the americans rant for a while, with reason many agree, then the calm and thoughtful over-the-ponders' ponders get posted (pretty, eh?)... hope I get everybody here that I wanted to answer! Stringsinger - yes, we are being forced to believe or at least act as if we do, here in the US, especially in the Bible belt but that belt is getting broader by the day. Guest,meself - the difference between blind and mere is in the blindness to scientific evidence. I agree that there is no scientific evidence for the nonexistence of gods (although there is very strong statistical evidence therefore); what gets my knickers in a twist is when the fundies in these here theoretically Church/State separated Yewnited States say that their religious teachings comprise equally valid [in the jargon sense] data, when they are actually folk tales. Or that those folk tales, since they've been believed in so long, *are* now evidence, as in data, as in empirical. If you have never taken a basic science class nor read any non-fiction, if you are hidden away and illiterate or from an isolated place without common knowledge of reality, then you can *merely* believe. If you are educated and understand science and the nature of data and persist in preferring to ascribe supernatural causes to natural phenomena, then that is blind faith. Of course, that is what the good books say you are supposed to have, but the US fundies seem to have forgotten that. Or that prayer is supposed to be private... Joe, how do you explore "what is beyond" when we are here, as in, not beyond? Also, if you assume, a priori, that the answer to your exploration is god (I take that from your "I call the goal of that path of exploration 'God.'") then why explore at all, since you've already decided upon the answer? And if your goal isn't an all-powerful creator, why call it god anyway? I love exploring reality - there is plenty still to find out about it! I *am* open - to actual evidence, data, and other tools we have that are, some would say, limited in their investigative capability to actual demonstrable reality. I would argue that any investigation into non-reality is interesting and fun but doesn't have anything to do with reality. And that is what Fergie is asking about - is there anything real that points to god? And the answer, so far, and we've looked looooooooooooooooooong and haaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaard, is, well, No. Take dark matter, for instance, which isn't really "there" - but because of its effect on reality, it was observable anyway, so now we've found it. Way cool. No god. And Little Hawk - of course! Those are all just as silly! ttr - I assume you have your tongue firmly in your handsome cheek. Surely we can agree to get along through our intelligence a lot sooner than through our invisible (some would say imaginary) friends. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: One compelling reason for a god? From: Amos Date: 03 Apr 07 - 04:55 PM TTR: AU contraire. It is not acceptance of God which will fuel a renaissance. The Shi'ites, Sunnis, Wannabes, Baptists, and Presbyterians are all locked in death grips with each other but are all quite sure there is a God out there. What will fuel the renaissance is an acceptance of the spiritual nature of the individual human being, with no strings or control attached thereunto. A |
|
Subject: RE: BS: One compelling reason for a god? From: Nickhere Date: 03 Apr 07 - 05:18 PM WYSIWYG - "The question is, I think, is there something bigger and more powerful than us, beyond us (or in whom we are)? If so, are we equipped to place where the limit is, on how big or how powerful? How to interact with such a being?" Interesting question! There seems to be a lot of 'God' threads around at the moment! As for knwoing how to interact with such a being, i think i may have an answer to that. The Old Testament (the Bible but excluding the 4 gospels and the Acts of the Apostles) is a text shared by Christian and Jew alike. It chronicles the ups and downs, joys and sorrows of the Jewish people, of the tribe of Israel. My view is that it is not only a historical account of the Jewish people ('history' being the written record) but the interaction of the Jewish people with their God, Yaweh, shows us how we can interact with Him, too. In other woprds, the Old Testament not only is a historical account of the Jews, but can also be seen as a model for each of us personally in our dealings with God. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: One compelling reason for a god? From: dianavan Date: 03 Apr 07 - 05:20 PM When there is no scientific explanation, the only name you can give it is God or Goddess. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: One compelling reason for a god? From: Nickhere Date: 03 Apr 07 - 05:36 PM Oh I almost forgot! Someone told me a funny joke a while back I'd like to repeat here, and I beg that no-one get offended, whatever your beliefs (or none)! It's just a funny story An atheist is out walking in the countryside. It's a beautiful day and he's enjoying the scenery. "What wonderful woods!" he says "what magnificent mountains, what..." He breaks off as a bear comes crashing out of the undergrowth, looking mean and hungry. He gasps, turns ahead and runs as fast as he can (ignoring all advice about not being able to out-run a bear. Well, what would you do?!) But to no avail - his foot catches in a root and he trips, sprawled on the ground. He turns horrified to see the bear poised above him, paw raised. "God help me!!" he shouts, in spite of himself. Suddenly the bear freezes, time stops, the birds hang motionless in the air.... The clouds roll back and a deep voice booms "all your life you have told people that I do not exist and that prayer is a waste of time. Are you now telling me you have changed your mind and believe in me?" The man ponders and answers, "well, I suppose it's true...it would be a bit much to say I was a Christian now, after all the times I said you didn't exist. But..." and he thought hard "perhaps you would be good enough to make the bear a Christian?" he added hopefully. God thought for a moment and said "mmm. OK, I suppose that'd be fair enough" and the clouds rolled back and the birds started flying and the bear came to life once more... The man flinched as the bear's paw swung down, but then the bear, stopped, a bit puzzled, looked around. The man breathed with relief. The bear folded his paws, hung his head and said quietly "Lord, for the food we are about to receive...." ;-) |
|
Subject: RE: BS: One compelling reason for a god? From: Amos Date: 03 Apr 07 - 05:56 PM I'd say that bear was a compelliing reason. A |
|
Subject: RE: BS: One compelling reason for a god? From: Mrrzy Date: 03 Apr 07 - 07:28 PM Dianavan - why? |
|
Subject: RE: BS: One compelling reason for a god? From: Amos Date: 03 Apr 07 - 07:35 PM How about, "insufficient data"? Or "unexplained phenomenon"? As for there being "no other place to go..." I'd have to offer that this is only true when you aren't fixing to go anywhere anyway, a self-fulfilling explanation. It is not inherently true, I reckon. A |
|
Subject: RE: BS: One compelling reason for a god? From: Thomas the Rhymer Date: 03 Apr 07 - 08:01 PM Bill D... then you are going to be 'out of the way' then..? Mrrzy... Sorry to disappoint... but I actually believe what I wrote. Amos... Where did I say anything about religion? A fitting metaphor would be to relate a religious sect to an internet browser... and (crosses himself) for the sake of a severely stretched metaphor, take God to be the internet. The various browsers are all in competition for your usage, so they don't 'get along'... and yet they provide somewhat similar services. We take our pick, and try to stay out of the scuffle... Eventually, it is each person's honest and personal relationship with God that matters, and that is evident in the course of history, as well as in my personal life... I see it as a major step forward for many, many reasons... insofar as it establishes a common and shared discourse on subjects that touch and effect the welfare of all of us... and is based in conscience and kindness. Without this basis in mutual belief in God... It's quite possible that our revolutionary forefathers would have been hard pressed to create such ground breaking testaments to the saga of the quest for human freedom. Nickhere... Thanks for the great joke! I loved it! ttr |
|
Subject: RE: BS: One compelling reason for a god? From: Bee-dubya-ell Date: 03 Apr 07 - 08:09 PM When there's no scientific explanation, someone isn't looking in the right place. However, I will concede that the right place just might be in a chronospatial dimension to which we humans, with our three dimensions and one-way time, generally have no access. If we could transcend our dimensional boundaries, the answer would probably be right before our noses. But, then again, we might not remember why the question was important in the first place. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: One compelling reason for a god? From: GUEST,meself Date: 03 Apr 07 - 10:33 PM Half-listening again to a re-run of the show about Rumi I mentioned somewhere earlier. The commentator just said, "We are like a school of fish swimming around discussing the possibility of an ocean." |
|
Subject: RE: BS: One compelling reason for a god? From: Amos Date: 03 Apr 07 - 10:38 PM Well it wouldn't be our noses, probably. Last I checked my nose was pretty committed to staying three-dimensional and proceeding through time, as all good noses should. A Except for Heaven Knows. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: One compelling reason for a god? From: Mrrzy Date: 03 Apr 07 - 11:27 PM ttr - why not each person's honest relationship with each other, who are visibly here? |
|
Subject: RE: BS: One compelling reason for a god? From: Joe Offer Date: 04 Apr 07 - 01:17 AM Well, my goal, the transcendent, That Which Is Beyond, could be called "good" or "beauty" or "honest relationship with each other" or "love" or a number of abstractions - but I have experienced the Beyond as personal, which I call "God," the source and center and unifying element of whatever it is that we are. Erich Fromm called it "meaning" - I could buy that, too. It's not an explanation of the unknown - it's the meaning of the undefinable. But the trouble with all of this is, that words cheapen the whole thing. Faith is something to be experienced and enjoyed (and suffered, at times) - defining it just doesn't work. -Joe- |
|
Subject: RE: BS: One compelling reason for a god? From: GUEST,h h rrhj vjfpok Date: 04 Apr 07 - 01:19 AM First Cause is simple proof of God's existence. The Devil is in the details. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: One compelling reason for a god? From: Thomas the Rhymer Date: 04 Apr 07 - 01:55 AM Mrrzy... Why not indeed... Honest relationship with people is just one of the many benefits of each person's honest and personal relationship with God... I find that when I make people the main goal, instead of God... that the underlying purpose and source for spiritual intuitiveness can become clouded... occluded... by personal attachments and political maneuvers. By cultivating my 'connection' with God, I become more than I would otherwise be... and also, I find I am better equipped to spot and root out my own 'issues' as they arise, thus, keeping my head in the game becomes more openly process oriented for me and the people I am with. What is lacking here is any sense of 'loss' of self and potential... the paranoia of my earlier Deusphobic convictions have proven to be quite unfounded. ttr |
|
Subject: RE: BS: One compelling reason for a god? From: Little Hawk Date: 04 Apr 07 - 02:39 AM If you really believe only in cause and effect, there simply cannot BE a first cause. There always had to be something else that came before it. This is why such thinking leads only further on toward an unattainable goal. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: One compelling reason for a god? From: Mrrzy Date: 04 Apr 07 - 11:19 AM Right, Little Hawk. And how to even phrase the question of what there was before time... *yikes* again! |
|
Subject: RE: BS: One compelling reason for a god? From: Bill D Date: 04 Apr 07 - 11:48 AM "Bill D... then you are going to be 'out of the way' then..?" Thomas...not if your march towards God and "global spiritual human renaissance.." is going to be over my rights to NOT be included. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: One compelling reason for a god? From: Little Hawk Date: 04 Apr 07 - 11:54 AM It wouldn't be "before" time...it would have to be completely outside of time. "Before" is a concept that is only valid when you have time. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: One compelling reason for a god? From: M.Ted Date: 04 Apr 07 - 12:30 PM I am torn by this discussion. I dissgree with Mrzzy's ideas about belief in God--but I share the concern about the efforts of some religious groups to impose their ideas on others, and to supress ideas that differ from their own. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: One compelling reason for a god? From: Peace Date: 04 Apr 07 - 12:38 PM People have a right to their religious beliefs. They also have the right to shut up about them. |
