BS: One compelling reason for a god?

Subject: RE: BS: One compelling reason for a god?
From: bobad
Date: 01 Apr 07 - 02:03 PM

m/m

That is probably one of the main reasons, the other being gaining control over others, that the concept was created in the first place.

Subject: RE: BS: One compelling reason for a god?
From: GUEST,meself
Date: 01 Apr 07 - 02:13 PM

"Something I've noticed is the ability many religiously inclined and otherwise sane people have to hold two (or more) distinctly opposing viewpoints at once."

This can (note: CAN) be the difference between an open-minded, empathetic person and a close-minded, unempathetic person. It is a characteristic often attributed to poets, other artists and creative thinkers ...

Subject: RE: BS: One compelling reason for a god?
From: Don Firth
Date: 01 Apr 07 - 02:44 PM

The first problem would be to determine whether or not God actually exists. Let us assume for sake of argument that we learn that God does indeed exist. Once that is done, the real questions start:   what is the nature of this God? People have made all kinds of assumptions about benevolence. Perhaps this Entity we think of as God is indeed benevolent, but we are not necessarily the objects of that benevolence.

Suppose the cosmos we know is actually a research laboratory. And supposed the earth is a Petri dish. And suppose we are merely bacteria in that Petri dish.

And God is a lab technician.

And as bacteria, we're just not making the cut as expected. The Petri dish is scheduled for sterilization and re-use.

Maybe you really don't want to know. . . .

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: One compelling reason for a god?
From: GUEST,heric
Date: 01 Apr 07 - 04:03 PM

The moon. Just look at it.

Subject: RE: BS: One compelling reason for a god?
From: Amos
Date: 01 Apr 07 - 04:10 PM

Why should the moon be a compelling argument for anything (other than tides)?

A

Subject: RE: BS: One compelling reason for a god?
From: GUEST,heric
Date: 01 Apr 07 - 04:13 PM

Look longer.

(yes, I am a I(A)(i) under the Marion classification system.)

Subject: RE: BS: One compelling reason for a god?
From: Peace
Date: 01 Apr 07 - 04:43 PM

I think many of us have missed the boat on this question. God and gods exist for many people because many people need them. They can then be slagged for 'needing a crutch' or similar Marxist cutsie-sayings that have little substance. I have friends on both sides of the 'God is/God is not necessary' coin. I expect I will for the rest of my life.

I had a hip replacement years back. A few weeks later I went to see the doctor who'd done the replacement. I was using a cane. His first question was, "Have you hurt yourself?" I said no. He looked at me and continued, "Well, it looked like you had. But since you haven't, LOSE THE CANE!"

Many people go through stages of needing a 'higher power' to speak with. I know I do from time to time. Call it God, a god, id, George--but call it.


"I gaze into the doorway of temptation's angry flame
And every time I pass that way I always hear my name.
Then onward in my journey I come to understand
That every hair is numbered like every grain of sand."

Gospel of Bob.


My atheist friends answer simply: I don't need that complication in my life. Fine by me.

I am rambling, but that's the way I am. Hope y'all have a good day regardless your beliefs.

Subject: RE: BS: One compelling reason for a god?
From: Amos
Date: 01 Apr 07 - 05:16 PM

There is no question about the higher power thing. But placing it without rather than within
Is the core nature of the most cardinal of sins.
OF all the lifetimes that have ever been You,
The worst are those where you forget that the kingdom is Within you.
And even while numbering the wondrous grain of sand
Remember who You are that guides the numbering hand.

Winsome Metafi Zeeks
Answers Never Requested
Noisome and Brash, New York, 1969

Subject: RE: BS: One compelling reason for a god?
From: Mrrzy
Date: 01 Apr 07 - 07:54 PM

There are no *rational* (ie, data-based, empirical) reasons to believe in anything supernatural, or "greater" or "higher" or anything semantically related to the god domain. That's why it's so much fun when they try things like intelligent design... Show me someone who regards "the theory of" evolution as yet not proven one way or another, and I'll show you someone who does not understand basic science. And there are no data *for* creationism in any guise. The evidence is overwhelmingly in favor of "just happened" over "was made." Insisting that that isn't the way it actually is is silly, and trying to teach it as science in schools is dangerously foolish.

Of course in science-speak you can't say a "theory" is ever "proven" but evolution, natural selection, and even punctuated equilibrium by now are as firmly established as the "theory" of gravity, the "theory" of plate tectonics, or the "theory" of relativity, or any other model that describes the known world. Which, of course, doesn't mean that god didn't make it that way. You can't disprove god, no arguments there. That is not evidence in favor of their being any, it's just a fact of logic.

We know a great deal about our own species' evolution. What I like best is that mitochondrial Eve is about 150,000 years older than y-chromosomal Adam! Chew on *that* one for a while!

Subject: RE: BS: One compelling reason for a god?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 01 Apr 07 - 09:01 PM

There are no rational reasons to believe in our present political system either. I regard that as a more vital concern than the one you are harping on.

Subject: RE: BS: One compelling reason for a god?
From: 282RA
Date: 01 Apr 07 - 09:21 PM

>>There are no rational reasons to believe in our present political system either.<<

You're merely proving what I've already asserted: If there is no rationale behind believing in something then come up with something else. Sticking to the same worn-out arguments produces the political morass we are in. Continuing to hold the same WRONG beliefs about this god results in a religion that kills and destroys in the name of peace and love and it makes no difference what religion it is. They all do it because they refuse to ditch wrongheaded beliefs because to do so would require brainwork to come up with something workable and that's too hard for their empty heads. Much easier to call the atheists stuck up and arrogant and dismiss their arguments than admit they are right (once again, I am NOT talking about the materialist jerks who think they are atheists but are not so don't use them as an example of what atheism is).

Subject: RE: BS: One compelling reason for a god?
From: M.Ted
Date: 01 Apr 07 - 09:27 PM

I've been compelled to agree with Gargoyle, something that disturbs me, I admit, but he is on the money--you all need to read St. Tommy--and think about it--don't accept what he says(it wasn't meant to be accepted, it is argumentation) Summa Theologica

Subject: RE: BS: One compelling reason for a god?
From: *daylia*
Date: 01 Apr 07 - 09:31 PM

Amos, thank you!

Subject: RE: BS: One compelling reason for a god?
From: Mrrzy
Date: 01 Apr 07 - 10:09 PM

Well, our political system does exist, whether you believe in it or not... but unlike the god thing, the existence of our political system can be demonstrated.

Subject: RE: BS: One compelling reason for a god?
From: M.Ted
Date: 01 Apr 07 - 10:22 PM

Again, AR, I am compelled to point out that your ideas are not logical or reasoned, they are more like incoherent rantings--

Subject: RE: BS: One compelling reason for a god?
From: Stringsinger
Date: 01 Apr 07 - 11:16 PM

Bee, although evolution is a theory, it is also a scientific fact as significant as the theory of gravity.

It is not a matter of "belief" but a matter of something that is scientifically observable and provable. Any other view must be based on a complete disregard for scientific findings which seems to be an affliction of those in a theological fog.

It's not a matter of Evolution vrs. Creationism because that controversey has been proven specious by major reputable scientists.

There is a propaganda mechanism in place to devalue scientific findings by relegating them to personal "beliefs". The religious extremists are busy in propagating this view which carries no credibility whatever. They are busy "smashing Galileo's telescope".

Frank Hamilton

Subject: RE: BS: One compelling reason for a god?
From: Thomas the Rhymer
Date: 01 Apr 07 - 11:44 PM

Compelling?

Well, for starters... I believe in God. Not quite compelling around here, to be sure... But it's probably the very best I can do.

Then... there's this 'idea' of evolution. Yeah, right... just some 'theory' called evolution, and it's ALL about Charles Darwin... ;^) ... well, no, not really. A casual study of Geography is all that's needed to get 'on track' about the history of the earth... and it's inhabitants.

What 'makes' evolution happen? One could say that the 'evolution' of the automobile over the last 100 years is just capitalism at work... doing 'that thing it does'... But I'd be likely to point out that it is indeed possible that both 'evolution' and 'the advancement of technology' are not only related... but that they are together part of the 'hidden hand' of God within us... and all around us.

Knock on the door of your average 'crest of the wave' scientist, engineer, musician, artist, teacher, lawyer, politician, social worker, designer, doctor... etc... and I'll bet they'll have to admit that they don't actually know exactly where those 'new ideas' came from...

But then... I believe.

If you don't, my telling you about it would be a bit like trying to describe my latest musical improvisation to a computer... ;^)

For me, science and God are not even remotely mutually exclusive.

More on this later...
ttr

Subject: RE: BS: One compelling reason for a god?
From: Thomas the Rhymer
Date: 02 Apr 07 - 12:22 AM

Oops... Ummm... perhaps a casual study of... Geology...

My bad...
ttr

Subject: RE: BS: One compelling reason for a god?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 02 Apr 07 - 12:42 AM

There's no question that our political system exists, Mrzzy. I am simply suggesting that to believe in it is stupider than believing in God. ;-) And look how many people do!

Subject: RE: BS: One compelling reason for a god?
From: Peace
Date: 02 Apr 07 - 01:30 AM

Artist/Band: Williams Don
Lyrics for Song: I Believe in You
Lyrics for Album: Don Williams - 20 Greatest Hits


I don't believe in superstars,
Organic food and foreign cars.
I don't believe the price of gold;
The certainty of growing old.
That right is right and left is wrong,
That north and south can't get along.
That east is east and west is west.
And being first is always best.

But I believe in love.
I believe in babies.
I believe in Mom and Dad.
And I believe in you.

Well, I don't believe that heaven waits,
For only those who congregate.
I like to think of God as love:
He's down below, He's up above.
He's watching people everywhere.
He knows who does and doesn't care.
And I'm an ordinary man,
Sometimes I wonder who I am.

But I believe in love.
I believe in music.
I believe in magic.
And I believe in you.

Well, I know with all my certainty,
What's going on with you and me,
Is a good thing.
It's true, I believe in you.

I don't believe virginity,
Is as common as it used to be.
In working days and sleeping nights,
That black is black and white is white.
That Superman and Robin Hood,
Are still alive in Hollywood.
That gasoline's in short supply,
The rising cost of getting by.

But I believe in love.
I believe in old folks.
I believe in children.
I believe in you.

But I believe in love.
I believe in babies.
I believe in Mom and Dad.
And I believe in you.

Subject: RE: BS: One compelling reason for a god?
From: GUEST,h h rrhj vjfpok
Date: 02 Apr 07 - 01:36 AM

Haven't read the whole thread, so maybe someone mentioned this. Wasn't it Aquinas who argued the First Cause? If everything is cause and effect, then where did the first cause come from?

Subject: RE: BS: One compelling reason for a god?
From: Thomas the Rhymer
Date: 02 Apr 07 - 01:49 AM

Little Hawk... for some reason you just reminded me of a song I dug thirty years ago...

In For The Kill   by Budgie

Living ain't easy it opens your head
Layin' and prayin' you wish you were dead
When I was born I was given a will
That the meaning of life is
I'm in for the kill

Loving knowing giving showing
Love is seeing and ever being
Motor cruising midnight boozing
Altar singing and bells that are ringing

You got a reason to listen to me
For I am a messenger carrying the key
Money is nothing to hold into wills
And the meaning of life is
I'm in for the kill

You see me moving around playing on people's minds
But I won't be for nobody I only have a way of return
Take me make me do what you want
You ain't gonna mock up me
Well I am the tolls and I am the right
And I am the earth and the sea

Hey there you with a lock that is boozed
Gonna say it with a face that's red
It's only the ones who can take the pain
Who can take that golden hat
I'm only trying to help you love in a world
That is hot and rough
It's me and you and a cat named boo
And a woman who has run out of stuff


Now, it's like... ya know... whatever...
ttr

Subject: RE: BS: One compelling reason for a god?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 02 Apr 07 - 01:58 AM

Hmmm. I have to say that is really quite an odd song lyric, Thomas. I don't follow it.

I'm here in this life for a number of things, but I'm definitely not in for the kill. That's the last reason I can think of to be here.

What do you like about that song?

Subject: RE: BS: One compelling reason for a god?
From: Thomas the Rhymer
Date: 02 Apr 07 - 02:12 AM

Now? Nothing...

It's a 'piece of work' from the seventies... when 'obcure art' was popular... from one of the best 'hard rock' bands ever...

But times have changed, and I'm changing still...

It sure is interesting to look back... One of the pleasures of midlife is not having to actually 'be' back... ;^)
ttr

Subject: RE: BS: One compelling reason for a god?
From: Thomas the Rhymer
Date: 02 Apr 07 - 02:17 AM

BTW... Not being in for the kill is what the song is all about... Kinda like a dachsund's urge to take on all commers... from behind a closed door... ;^)

Budgies are SO imposing...
ttr

Subject: RE: BS: One compelling reason for a god?
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 02 Apr 07 - 02:28 AM

"It's not a matter of Evolution vrs. Creationism because that controversey has been proven specious by major reputable scientists."

... and major reputable clerics of many flavours ...

Subject: RE: BS: One compelling reason for a god?
From: Thomas the Rhymer
Date: 02 Apr 07 - 02:47 AM

Touche... bien cuit, foolstroupe!

Subject: RE: BS: One compelling reason for a god?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 02 Apr 07 - 03:20 AM

Yes, Thomas, but among budgies themselves...that's a different story! Budgies can get quite tough with other budgies, you know. :-) Same deal with rabbits. They may not look fierce, but they can get very feisty over issues like mating and territory.

Subject: RE: BS: One compelling reason for a god?
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 02 Apr 07 - 03:30 AM

Yep - just look what that rabbit did in that movie "Search for the Holy Grail"

Subject: RE: BS: One compelling reason for a god?
From: Donuel
Date: 02 Apr 07 - 07:18 AM

compelling reasons for anything are like a a wimpy notion being discussed, tossed about and debated.

Give me a good old fashioned compeling URGE any day.
Spaw knows about urges.
Now then, is there a compelling urge for God?

I think you will agree that certain situations would create an urge for help from the beyond.

Subject: RE: BS: One compelling reason for a god?
From: Bee
Date: 02 Apr 07 - 07:44 AM

Stringsinger, I carefully avoided using the word 'belief' regarding evolution in my post. Otherwise, I mostly agree with you. I was referring to the ability some appear to have to simultaneously believe in biblical style creation and accept the science of evolution.

Subject: RE: BS: One compelling reason for a god?
From: Bee-dubya-ell
Date: 02 Apr 07 - 09:03 AM

I believe in an Ultimate, but I refuse to define it, characterize it, or refer to it as "God". My early upbringing saddled the word "God" with so much negative baggage that it's only useful as an expletive.

It's a bit analogous to the artist's idea that one can't draw an accurate depiction of a tree if one thinks "tree". Just thinking the word automatically brings to mind a stereotypical "tree" that interferes with one's ability to truly see the tree one is attempting to draw. But if one draws the shape of the negative space where the background meets the tree, there's no preconceived notion of what it is, no name for it and, thusly, a better chance that the resulting "tree" will look more like a real tree and less like a stick with a ball on top.

Subject: RE: BS: One compelling reason for a god?
From: Amos
Date: 02 Apr 07 - 09:33 AM

Wise words, oh, Potter Extraordinaire.

A.

Subject: RE: BS: One compelling reason for a god?
From: M.Ted
Date: 02 Apr 07 - 09:37 AM

Hey, guys, someone asked a simple question--"If everything is cause and effect, then where did the first cause come from?"--why are you so slow to post an answer?

Subject: RE: BS: One compelling reason for a god?
From: Donuel
Date: 02 Apr 07 - 09:48 AM

One thinks that cause always comes before effect but on the quantum scale effect can come before the cause.

Anyway the assumption that there is "a" god is faulty.

Everyone knows it takes TWO.

Subject: RE: BS: One compelling reason for a god?
From: *daylia*
Date: 02 Apr 07 - 09:54 AM

Fergie, the best person to decide whether you should adopt a belief or not is yourself.

Subject: RE: BS: One compelling reason for a god?
From: *daylia*
Date: 02 Apr 07 - 10:01 AM

Oops thought I'd clicked "sort descending". That was in response to Fergie's opening post ie

I would somebody to answer this question.
Why should I believe that there is such a thing as a God?

Subject: RE: BS: One compelling reason for a god?
From: 3refs
Date: 02 Apr 07 - 10:28 AM

I think it was Jerry Garcia(or Wellington, Little Hawk)who said "Religion is for people who don't want to go to hell! Spirituality is for those who have been there!".

GOD! 5 billion views(or there abouts) from humans, and their expectations, or lack there of, of God.

I'd like to suggest that if every living creature looked at the same "thing" and had the ability to express their interpretations so we could all understand each other, I would think that there would be a lot of debate amongst us dwellers of earth(as this forum proves). Many would be passionate, many couldn't care less.

So, in the spirit of debate(and theory)I'll suggest that it is acceptable to say that a wolf who hears the thunder and gazes upon the lightning might not only be scared shit less, he/she just might wonder what that was and where it came from! As would the ant, the fish, the fly, the whale and the ape. How long they ponder the possibilities would be of great importance here. To some, it would be as fleeting as the flash of lightning, to others it may last a lifetime.

Now, theorizing myself, about what they're theorizing about, opens up the universe. The same one we're all in. The same one we're all part of. The same one that is made up of the same "stuff" from it's centre to it's farthest reaches. Sub-atomic molecules all the same, only put together a little differently here and there.

Remembering of course that there are people today who profess to seeing God and talking to God that we don't take too seriously, I'm going to suggest that most people who believe in God from whatever religion, believe in something they have never seen or touched. Nor do they personally know anyone who has, but they believe in the Prophets of the past who professed to having had direct communication with God(the ones who say it today are nuts).

....gotta go take my kid to driving lessons, I'll get back to this later!

Subject: RE: BS: One compelling reason for a god?
From: *daylia*
Date: 02 Apr 07 - 10:38 AM

Here's another compelling reason for a god: Ef ye want to see Jesus

From the Digitrad:

"Note by Fenner: "My father sang this hymn* and said he knew a time when a great many slaves were allowed to have a revival for two days, while their masters and their families had one; and a great many professed religion. And one poor, ignorant man, professed religion, and praised God, and sang this hymn."

Ef ye want to see Jesus,
Go in de wilderness,
Go in de wilderness,
Go in de wilderness,
Ef ye want to see Jesus,
Go in de wilderness,
Leanin' on de Lord.

Oh, brother, how d'ye feel,
when ye come out de wilderness,
come out de wilderness,
come out de wilderness
Oh, brudder how d'ye feel,
when ye come out de wilderness,
Leanin' on de Lord.

I felt so happy when I come out de wilderness,
come out de wilderness,
come out de wilderness.
I feel so happy when I come out de wilderness,
Leanin' on de Lord....

Anything that lifts the heart, brightens the spirits and gives hope to the desperate and downtrodden has more than enough "reason" for existence, in my book.

Subject: RE: BS: One compelling reason for a god?
From: M.Ted
Date: 02 Apr 07 - 10:59 AM

One compelling reason for a "God" is that it makes it possible for me to tell you all to "Go to Hell";-)

Subject: RE: BS: One compelling reason for a god?
From: Bee
Date: 02 Apr 07 - 12:46 PM

"Hey, guys, someone asked a simple question--"If everything is cause and effect, then where did the first cause come from?"--why are you so slow to post an answer? " - M.Ted

That is why there are agnostics like myself, M.Ted.

But given there are really only two possibilities: something or nothing (or always or never), perhaps 'first cause' is a meaningless phrase.

Subject: RE: BS: One compelling reason for a god?
From: Bill D
Date: 02 Apr 07 - 12:53 PM

"...-"If everything is cause and effect, then where did the first cause come from?"--why are you so slow to post an answer?"

Why, because I had to go look it up in Aristotle, of course! ;>)

seriously- for us, it is not necessary to locate or identify a 'first cause'. There is the concept of 'remote cause', which relates to the fartherist back cause necessary to explain or discuss particular phenomena, but since **FIRST** cause is so difficult to even conceive, let alone identify, why bother? There is still debate over whether the 'big bang' was just one in an infinite series of big bangs, and if THAT is hard to take in, just shrug, as I do, and don't worry about it.

   I submit that just saying "there MUST be a First Cause, so I'll just arbitrarily call it 'God'", solves nothing, as I can always ask, "Then why would there BE a God in the...ummmm...first place?"

We have certain tools to slowly investigate the physical laws of the universe, and we sorta think right now that somewhere about 14-15 Billion years ago, 'something' happened that 'caused' all the complexity we see now. We're still looking to see if we can pin it down closer, or revise our notions of what happened....but there's just no way to even grasp any concept of an "ultimate force/spirit" which 'decided' to start things rolling.....and pretending that we can is just imagining that creating a linguistic 'name' somehow endows reality.
   Saying "we can't understand it, therefore God done it" is just circular reasoning disguised as useful logic. (There are some unstated assumptions hidden in the syllogism)

....all of which leaves, as "compelling reasons" for positing a god, "Someone told me there was one, and I like that answer because it makes me feel good"....and isn't THAT how it works?

Subject: RE: BS: One compelling reason for a god?
From: Bee-dubya-ell
Date: 02 Apr 07 - 01:12 PM

"First cause" assumes a duality between creator and created, mover and moved, thought and action. There are millions of people, myself included, who believe such dualities are, ultimately, illusory. It's not necessary to have a creator for creation to occur if the creator and created are merely different aspects of the same thing.

Subject: RE: BS: One compelling reason for a god?
From: Amos
Date: 02 Apr 07 - 01:15 PM

First cause also assumes that (as I said elsewhere) the notion of time and linked cause-and-effect through time is a consistent law both in the physical universe and in other realms or universities or whatever you call them. This is a risky assumption.

A

Subject: RE: BS: One compelling reason for a god?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 02 Apr 07 - 02:04 PM

--"If everything is cause and effect, then where did the first cause come from?"--

There is no first cause. It's all happening at once. It's beyond what we think of as "time". It's simultaneous. But you can't see that when you appear to be stuck at one teeny little spot on the timeline, only because that's where your consciousness is now focusing itself.

You are the central character in the dream you are dreaming. In the dream there appears to be a stream of causes and effects, so naturally you look for the first cause. You aren't ever going to find it.

Subject: RE: BS: One compelling reason for a god?
From: Bill D
Date: 02 Apr 07 - 05:07 PM

Wow! Who'd a-thunk it could all be explained so succinctly!

(goes off muttering and wondering why *I* didn't see it!)




















*giggle*

Subject: RE: BS: One compelling reason for a god?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 02 Apr 07 - 05:13 PM

LOL! Yeah, great isn't it? I knew that would tickle yer fancy, Bill.

Subject: RE: BS: One compelling reason for a god?
From: M.Ted
Date: 02 Apr 07 - 05:27 PM

I think it was Kris Kristofferson who asked the question, "Are you a figment of my imagination, or am I a figment of your imagination." Depends on how you define "figment"--

Subject: RE: BS: One compelling reason for a god?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 02 Apr 07 - 05:37 PM

What if both people are figments of a grander imagination...like Hamlet and Ophelia in the stage play?

Subject: RE: BS: One compelling reason for a god?
From: Mrrzy
Date: 02 Apr 07 - 06:37 PM

The quantum physics of time are, by preference mostly, beyond me.

"If everything is cause and effect" - then by definition there can be no "first" cause, because (odd word here) something would have had to cause that first cause.

Either time and space have always existed, or they began, but time cannot have a before, so they can't have begun... Norman, coordinate!*


*Who gets that reference?