BS: Vimy.... 90 years.

Subject: BS: Vimy.... 90 yeras.
From: gnu
Date: 08 Apr 07 - 09:59 PM

Subject: Vimy Ridge : 3598 Dead, 7000 Wounded
From: gnu - PM
Date: 09 Apr 02 - 04:36 PM

Standing at the Cenotaph today, it was hard not to shed more than a few tears for the 3598 dead and 7000 wounded Canadians at the battle of Vimy Ridge, France, eighty-five years ago. As well, many others of various nationalities died at Vimy in the years pervious to the Canadaian undertaking.

Lest we forget.

N

Subject: RE: BS: Vimy.... 90 yeras.
From: gnu
Date: 08 Apr 07 - 10:07 PM

Odd... I changed the typo in ths thread title and posted a bit more than "N". Where does it all go?

Subject: RE: BS: Vimy.... 90 yeras.
From: gnu
Date: 08 Apr 07 - 10:09 PM

No matter.... as long as the lads are remembered... even if just a few.

Subject: RE: BS: Vimy.... 90 years.
From: Beer
Date: 08 Apr 07 - 10:23 PM

I'm with you Gnu.
"Lest we forget'.
Beer (adrien)

Subject: RE: BS: Vimy.... 90 years.
From: number 6
Date: 08 Apr 07 - 10:46 PM

I'm with you too gnu ... thanks for the thread.

Ironic ... today 6 families of Canadian's serving in Afghanistan will be informed of their loved ones death.

biLL

Subject: RE: BS: Vimy.... 90 years.
From: Peace
Date: 08 Apr 07 - 11:44 PM

Thanks, Grampy.

Subject: RE: BS: Vimy.... 90 years.
From: Peace
Date: 09 Apr 07 - 12:09 AM

KABUL (Reuters) - Six Canadian soldiers were killed in southern Afghanistan on Sunday when their vehicle was blown up by a roadside bomb, a coalition spokesman said. At least two soldiers were injured.

It was the worst single incident for the 33,000-strong NATO multinational force fighting Taliban insurgents in several months.

"I can confirm they are Canadian but the identities have not been released," Lt. Morgan Bailey said from Canada's capital, Ottawa.

The Canadian defence ministry later said on its Web site the incident happened west of Kandahar city, in the heartland of support for the Taliban. Canada's main base is in Kandahar.

Earlier in the day, one NATO soldier was killed and another injured by a similar bomb in another part of the volatile south, a NATO spokeswoman said. She did not say where the second attack took place.

Subject: RE: BS: Vimy.... 90 years.
From: Peace
Date: 09 Apr 07 - 12:12 AM

The Battle of Vimy Ridge

Subject: RE: BS: Vimy.... 90 years.
From: GUEST,meself
Date: 09 Apr 07 - 01:25 AM

If you had relatives in the Canadian forces in WWI, do a search here and you should their enlistment record. You don't need the regimental number; just the name.

My grandfather and two of his brothers went over for virtually the whole war, and they all came back. Damn lucky.

Subject: RE: BS: Vimy.... 90 years.
From: The Walrus
Date: 09 Apr 07 - 02:49 AM

"From little towns in a far land we came
To save our honor and a world aflame;
By little towns in a far land we sleep,
And trust those things we won to you to keep."

Rudyard Kipling :
(Epitaph for a monument - Sault Ste. Marie, Ontario)

Lest we forget.

W

Subject: RE: BS: Vimy.... 90 years.
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 09 Apr 07 - 04:26 AM

The Memorial at Vimy Ridge is one of the most striking monuments I have ever seen, it's clearly visible for miles, and a constant reminder to all.
Giok.

Subject: RE: BS: Vimy.... 90 years.
From: skipy
Date: 09 Apr 07 - 06:40 AM

Vimy
Lyrics and Music: Steve and Rob Ritchie


Chorus
Raise your flask, aim your rifles high
I've had a dream, I've seen we three should have no fear at all
You'll die in Kenora, Billy; you, Jim, in Winnipeg
And I will end my days in Montreal

These people come to see me in my bedroom
With faces dim and names I can't recall
Some woman with a golden ring she comes to comb my hair
Then she dresses me and walks me down the hall
Well I can still put one foot before the other,
If someone points the way for me to go
Today the sun is shining and a crowd has gathered 'round
They put circles of red flowers on the stone

Chorus

Old Jim Rankin stood behind me in the tunnel
Spat on his bayonet and he wiped it with his hand
And he rocked from heel to heel, blew out his cheeks and whistled
While we waited for the signal to advance
Jimmy Rankin he was twenty and we thought him an old man
He said he'd fathered children by the score
By girls back in Winnipeg and girls in Calais
And he bragged, by God, there'd be a hundred more

Chorus

And Billy Whitefish from Kenora: jet black hair and eyes like coal
We all called him 'Chief' behind his back
He never smiled or laughed or joked or spoke that much at all
Just sat and smoked while we waited to attack
Well they poured shells over our heads into the hillside
In thirty yards our kit and boots were full of mud
But as we made the ridge, Jimmy went down on both knees
And he coughed into his sleeve and there was blood

Chorus

The last sound I ever heard was an explosion
And bodies flew like apples thrown by boys play
When I could see again, I was alone Jimmy wasn't there
And a crater marked the hillside where he'd lain
And Billy Whitefish from Kenora wound up in a German trench
Where he captured their machine gun all alone
And held them off until his ammunition was all spent
And they swarmed around and they hacked him to the bone

Chorus

Now every day I still remember what I told them
My two friends who that day from this earth were torn
And the craters and the trenches where they died now bear the names
Of the cities and the towns where they were born

Chorus

Skipy

Subject: RE: BS: Vimy.... 90 years.
From: GUEST,Jim Martin
Date: 09 Apr 07 - 06:59 AM

I wonder, is this where the Vickers Vimy bomber got its name from?

Subject: RE: BS: Vimy.... 90 years.
From: skipy
Date: 09 Apr 07 - 07:07 AM

JM, yes, comfirmed, that is the reason.
Skipy

Subject: RE: BS: Vimy.... 90 years.
From: GUEST,Jim Martin
Date: 09 Apr 07 - 07:56 AM

Thanks Skipy.

Although I'm not old enough to remember them, they used to build them in the old Morgan Coach Works in my old home town of Linslade, Leighton Buzzard, Bedfordshire. After construction, they dissembled them, transported them by road (horse & cart I think), then reassembled them in a suitable field just ouside the town from where they took off.

I think the Wright Bros used one to cross the Atlantic. There was no enclosed cockpit then!

The Morgan Works used to build wooden bodies for motor cars before they got involved with the 1st World War aeroplane work.

Subject: RE: BS: Vimy.... 90 years.
From: Rapparee
Date: 09 Apr 07 - 09:08 AM

Vimy, Verdun, Belleau Wood, Cambrai, St. Mihiel, The Somme, Tannenburg, Ypres, Kut, Isonzo, Gallipoli, Marne, Heligoland Bight, Achi Baba, Suvla Bay, Passchendaele, Chateau-Thierry, Hill 60, Lone Pine, Dogger Bank, Falklands, Liege, Jutland, Basra....

...did the rifles fire o'er ya as they lowered ya down?...

Subject: RE: BS: Vimy.... 90 years.
From: skipy
Date: 09 Apr 07 - 09:24 AM

Jim, Alcock & Brown crossed the Atlantic.
Regards Skipy

Subject: RE: BS: Vimy.... 90 years.
From: GUEST,meself
Date: 09 Apr 07 - 11:01 AM

Thanks for those lyrics, Skipy. The sad and bitter irony of the dream of them dying in, apparently, their hometowns, and then at the end the revelation that the "craters and trenches" in which they died were named after those hometowns ...

Whenever the subject of WWI comes up, I make a point of recommending this book: Ghosts Have Warm Hands, by Will R. Bird. It's an autobiographical account of several years of trench warfare from a Canadian point of view. Absolutely harrowing. A shorter, fictionalized book that covers much of the same territory (literally) is Generals Die in Bed. I always forget the author's name (Harrison?), but he was an American who signed up with the Canadian Expeditionary Force early in the war. It contains a horrifyingly memorable description of some bungled bayonet-work that could be a metaphor for the entire war ...

Subject: RE: BS: Vimy.... 90 years.
From: dianavan
Date: 09 Apr 07 - 11:10 AM

Thanks for the link, Peace. I only know snatches of this story. Is it true that nobody had been able to capture Vimy previously? Is it true that the Canadians faced the German machine guns with bayonets? Is it true that it was more than weapons that won Vimy?

I think its important that people know that Vimy Ridge signifies the birth of Canada. It was the first time that Canadians from every province fought together and showed the nation and the world the strength of Canadian resolve.

Subject: RE: BS: Vimy.... 90 years.
From: Metchosin
Date: 09 Apr 07 - 11:42 AM

Oh what a lovely war!....." a bloodbath tailored to suit the inter-family squabbling of Europe's incestuous royal families". Such a waste of very precious life. Lest we forget.

Subject: RE: BS: Vimy.... 90 years.
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 09 Apr 07 - 11:48 AM

And the difference between that war, and the present little fracas in Iraq is what exactly Metchosin?
Giok

Subject: RE: BS: Vimy.... 90 years.
From: GUEST,meself
Date: 09 Apr 07 - 11:55 AM

Now for a little dark humour. This is a ditty popularized if not written by the Dumbbells (military troupe of entertainers), and apparently it was not unusual to hear Canadian troops singing it as they made their way to the front:

Oh, the bells of Hell go ding-a-ling-a-ling,
For you and not for me!
The devil's got a thing-a-ling-a-ling
For you and not for me!
Oh, grave where is thy victory?
Oh, Death where is thy sting?
The bells of Hell go ding-a-ling-a-ling,
For you and not for me!

Subject: RE: BS: Vimy.... 90 years.
From: GUEST,meself
Date: 09 Apr 07 - 12:38 PM

"Is it true that nobody had been able to capture Vimy previously?"

It should be remembered that at that time Canada was mostly rural, and rural males were of necessity outdoorsman. Much of their lives had consisted of doing hard, miserable work in the cold and damp. Most had only gone to school when there no pressing work to be done outdoors. Many of them were experienced hunters as well, so, many of these were men who had grown up using weapons and tools in the harshest conditions. In short, they were a rugged bunch. We wouldn't be able to mount as formidable a force of volunteers on such short notice today.

Subject: RE: BS: Vimy.... 90 years.
From: Metchosin
Date: 09 Apr 07 - 01:23 PM

Not much IMO in the grand scheme of things, Giok, not much. Different power brokers, that's all.

Subject: RE: BS: Vimy.... 90 years.
From: Peace
Date: 09 Apr 07 - 01:57 PM

The Canadians used artilery to lay fire ahead of their advance, and the ground troops walked at a steady pace so as not to get ahead of their own artillery. I recall reading that Byng begged for the task (he was the general in charge of the Canadian forces) because he thought the new tactics would work. They did. The cost was about 10% of the men. I understand that Canada was given the go-ahead because the central command figured that even though the plan might not work, it was better than what they'd been doing. The cost in life of the Vimy battle(s)--which lasted far longer than the four days in April--was approximately 250,000 German, British and French dead. I expect that adding the wounded would more than triple that figure. The Canadian loss (about 11,000 dead and wounded) was equally high in terms of percentages. In fairness to history, the British and French tacticians were instrumental in helping to devise the plan, and while certainly much credit can be given to Canada and the 'Canadian attitude', it must be recognized that many of the troops were recent immigrants, first generation Canadians.

I also think that other countries learned from Canada in terms of shaking off Colonial status. Some historians have posited that had Vimy Ridge been 'won' by any other country, it would likely receive little more than a footnote in history books. (Canada lost about 25,000 dead at the Somme for example). But there was an attitude amongst the Canadian troops that they could do it, and it is partly that attitude that made them successful, despite the cost. (They also trained for weeks using maps and mock-ups of the fields they'd be crossing--practice runs as it were.)

Canadian troops were not really 'respected' prior to Vimy. After that it was a different story. (And unfortunately it was Vimy that gave rise to the notion that Canucks were good to use as shock troops--lead elements in tough battles, and because they were in the lead they took very heavy casualties.)

A neat little aside: Canucks used tumplines (a strap that goes across the forehead, thus allowing the wearer to bear a heavier pack on hie/her back). It was an innovation developed and used during the fur trade, and even today it is not uncommon to see Canucks hiking hills with heavy packs supported by straps and tumplines. (It is a 'rule of thumb' that 50 pounds is the heaviest load a person can carry for any length of time without collapsing. The tumpline allows that load to increase by about 30%. [Full fire gear weighs about 70 pounds (exclusive of anything else the guy/gal is carrying)--that's bunker gear, lid, boots and SCBA, but even the strongest firefighters can only wear and work with that load for around 45 minutes. When that five minute low-air alarm sounds, I know it's greeted with a warm welcome)] Other countries scorned the Canadian 'adaptation' because it was a reminder of slavery years in the Commonwealth. For Canadians, it was just the way it had to be done. As memyself noted above, we are a much 'softer' people today, although I expect the country could easily raise a guarter million folks who know how to shoot accurately. But some of the 'toughness' just wouldn't be there.

Subject: RE: BS: Vimy.... 90 years.
From: Mrs.Duck
Date: 09 Apr 07 - 04:24 PM

We visited the Vimy memorial two years ago. The sheer scale of the ridge and the battle was hard to take in. Tanglefoot (the Canadien band mentionned above) were invited this year to sing at the memorial and I sang the song this weekend in Barnsley. Anyone who visits the battle site couldn't fail to be moved. Much of the area is untouched from when the battle occurred as there are still too many unexploded shells to make clearing it safe. Eerily as we pulled out of the car park the first track to play on the stereo was ''Vimy'

Subject: RE: BS: Vimy.... 90 years.
From: GUEST,meself
Date: 09 Apr 07 - 04:27 PM

Where's Barnsley?

Subject: RE: BS: Vimy.... 90 years.
From: Mrs.Duck
Date: 09 Apr 07 - 04:58 PM

Barnsley is in Yorkshire, England.

Subject: RE: BS: Vimy.... 90 years.
From: GUEST,meself
Date: 10 Apr 07 - 12:23 AM

Ah! Thank'ee.

Subject: RE: BS: Vimy.... 90 years.
From: eddie1
Date: 10 Apr 07 - 11:16 AM

When you think this took place during "The war to end all wars"

Didn't work, did it?

But the generals were alright weren't they?

Eddie

Subject: RE: BS: Vimy.... 90 years.
From: GUEST,meself
Date: 10 Apr 07 - 11:41 AM

As the book says: "Generals Die in Bed".

Subject: RE: BS: Vimy.... 90 years.
From: Rapparee
Date: 10 Apr 07 - 11:52 AM

And after they die in bed most of them roast in a very special place in Hell.

Subject: RE: BS: Vimy.... 90 years.
From: Rapparee
Date: 10 Apr 07 - 03:25 PM

I have to admit that I think that Haig and Foch are toasting in especially warm places, along with the rest of the generals who used Napoleonic tactics against machine guns.

Subject: RE: BS: Vimy.... 90 years.
From: Ref
Date: 10 Apr 07 - 06:46 PM

This was another war, like the present, chosen by leaders who could have sought peace and fought by men who would benefit little from its conclusion. All honor to those who died thinking they might achieve some good. Hell is too comfortable a place for those who chose these slaughters.

In some places in Western Europe, fields still percolate up unexploded munitions from 1916. I understand that there's still a huge, lost mine full of what may well be nitroglycerin somewhere beneath the fields of Paschendaele. What a legacy.

Subject: RE: BS: Vimy.... 90 years.
From: Peace
Date: 10 Apr 07 - 06:52 PM

It was Neocon types then and it's Neocon types today.

Subject: RE: BS: Vimy.... 90 years.
From: Zany Mouse
Date: 11 Apr 07 - 01:28 PM

Can I point out that the memorial actually names 60,000 Canadian victims of the war, not just those who died at the Ridge.

Rhiannon

Subject: RE: BS: Vimy.... 90 years.
From: GUEST,meself
Date: 11 Apr 07 - 01:35 PM

I was under the impression that those were the names of all those whose bodies had never been found ... ?

Subject: RE: BS: Vimy.... 90 years.
From: 3refs
Date: 12 Apr 07 - 07:14 AM

60,000 dead, almost 20,000 unaccounted for or MIA.

Subject: RE: BS: Vimy.... 90 years.
From: sian, west wales
Date: 12 Apr 07 - 08:16 AM

I was given "The Stone Carvers" by Jane Urquhart for Christmas which I've wanted to read since it was published. It weaves personal stories around the creation of the monument. I'm glad I've read it ... One day, I'll go there ...

sian

Subject: RE: BS: Vimy.... 90 years.
From: Irish sergeant
Date: 12 Apr 07 - 07:01 PM

My Grandfather was there. A silent tribute to Canadian bravery under extreme adversity. Neil

Subject: RE: BS: Vimy.... 90 years.
From: Rapparee
Date: 12 Apr 07 - 09:46 PM

Buried in old shell craters filled by new shell bursts, exploded into a red mist by picric acid or TNT, gassed and shot down while wandering around the battlefield blind and choking and coughing up bits of lung, found walking about without papers or identity tag but with a mind claimed by the surrounding horrors....

The MIAs....

Subject: RE: BS: Vimy.... 90 years.
From: GUEST,meself
Date: 12 Apr 07 - 10:56 PM

A good Vimy site.

Subject: RE: BS: Vimy.... 90 years.
From: Irish sergeant
Date: 13 Apr 07 - 12:56 PM

Thanks it looks like an interesting site. Neil

Subject: RE: BS: Vimy.... 90 years.
From: Peace
Date: 27 Apr 07 - 12:11 AM

Joe and Clones. Try erasing JUST the content of that post but not the sender name. This same thread was hit by the same post yesterday. Maybe the thread can be targeted BECAUSE the whole 'block' is erased. If only the content is erased, perhaps the spam mechanism can be fooled into thinking the post is still intact.

Subject: RE: BS: Vimy.... 90 years.
From: Peace
Date: 27 Apr 07 - 12:11 AM

Then again . . . .

Subject: RE: BS: Vimy.... 90 years.
From: skipy
Date: 27 Apr 07 - 04:31 AM

Eh?
Skipy

Subject: RE: BS: Vimy.... 90 years.
From: Peace
Date: 27 Apr 07 - 01:01 PM

That was in reference to some spam, Skipy. The spam post was deleted.

Subject: RE: BS: Vimy.... 90 years.
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 27 Apr 07 - 03:07 PM

It is a slur on brave men to dismiss their cause.
It did not end wars, but it ended the cruel prussian miltarism that would have engulfed Europe and much of the world but for them.

The generals?It was a new kind of fighting and new tactics developed.

Subject: RE: BS: Vimy.... 90 years.
From: Irish sergeant
Date: 27 Apr 07 - 05:39 PM

In fact though it was a futile battle Vimy Ridge was the bright spot in that battle. Too many good men lost for political buggary. Neil

Subject: RE: BS: Vimy.... 90 years.
From: Sandy Mc Lean
Date: 28 Apr 07 - 02:51 PM

It was the 85th battalion Nova Scotia highlanders who captured hill 145, the summit of Vimy Ridge. My grandfather was a seargeant-major with "D" company (Cape Breton's contribution). Although he died when I was just a boy he always was my hero!

Subject: RE: BS: Vimy.... 90 years.
From: GUEST,meself
Date: 28 Apr 07 - 03:05 PM

Hughie: I remember, I said Allan, I hear you're going to join the army?

Allan: And I said, It's no army for me, boy - it's the Cape Breton Highlanders I'm joining!

Subject: RE: BS: Vimy.... 90 years.
From: Sandy Mc Lean
Date: 28 Apr 07 - 03:53 PM

In WW1 the 185th batallion Cape Breton Highlanders was broken up in England to re-enforce other units. Many joined or re-joined the 85th forming D company.
In WW2 the Cape Breton Highlanders served with distinction, especially in Italy. I think that the duo of Hughie and Allen was born back then between two friends. After the war they continued their act of homespun comedy.

Subject: RE: BS: Vimy.... 90 years.
From: skipy
Date: 28 Apr 07 - 06:02 PM

Through my grand fathers eyes!
If you have not heard it, DO SO!
Skipy

Subject: RE: BS: Vimy.... 90 years.
From: bubblyrat
Date: 29 Apr 07 - 06:11 PM

Some years ago, I saw a documentary on TV, that dealt with the supposedly true story of thousands of Canadian troops who were kept hanging around for up to two YEARS after WW1 ended, in Wales, waiting for a ship to take them home . Apparently, there was some sort of "mutiny " , and some of these troops were shot . Any comments ??

Subject: RE: BS: Vimy.... 90 years.
From: Sandy Mc Lean
Date: 29 Apr 07 - 06:20 PM

I know nothing about this but British military justice had no qualms with shooting their own and Comonwealth troops. The Aussies refused them permission to do this but Canada, to it's shame did not.

Subject: RE: BS: Vimy.... 90 years.
From: Phot
Date: 29 Apr 07 - 07:14 PM

After twenty one years in the mob, I still can't work out what the hell we're doing. Why can't we just all be nice to each other? After all, we're only human.

But for all those lads who gave their all, not just in the WW1, but everywhere since, you are remembered.

Chris.

Subject: RE: BS: Vimy.... 90 years.
From: GUEST,tony geen
Date: 30 Apr 07 - 07:42 AM

I hope I'm not unduly highjacking this thread, but I feel so happy I've just got to do it anyway.

I've always vaguely known that I had a great-uncle who emigrated to Canada then joined up and was soon killed in WW1, but not knowing his regiment or other details and with only a common name Harry Hunt to go on I never really knew how to track him down.

By following the links in the posts above, it took me just a few minutes to find him. I now know his date of enlistment and all sorts of details, his date of death and the location of his war grave (Maroc Cemetry, near Bethune, Northern France). Gotta go there.

There is also the facility to upload a photo onto the official Canadian website, which I will do as soon as I can digitise the old photo I've got in the attic.

I even found out he had a tattoo of clasped hands on his arm. I'm sure nobody else in our quiet, respectable upper-working to lower-middle class family ever had one of those. But then, nobody else had the get-up-and-go to start a new life in Canada. It's all a great shame, but at least he was the only one of five brothers to die young.

So, thanks Mudcat ! (Result, or what?)

Subject: RE: BS: Vimy.... 90 years.
From: bubblyrat
Date: 30 Apr 07 - 12:33 PM

Brilliant !! So happy for you !! I only started on the internet 8 monthd ago, and it"s given me two sisters, a brother, and their children !!

Subject: RE: BS: Vimy.... 90 years.
From: bobad
Date: 09 May 07 - 06:41 PM

Percy Dwight Wilson, one of two surviving Canadian veterans of the First World War, has died at age 106.

Story here.

Subject: RE: BS: Vimy.... 90 years.
From: GUEST,meself
Date: 09 May 07 - 11:53 PM

bubblyrat - I've been told that that story about those Canadians being shot after the war is true, but I can't add anything more ... I remember watching that same movie ...

tony - I'm really glad that link proved so useful. I found out that my grandfather had three tattoos by the way, and, according to the records, his brothers had tattoos as well. There might be more tattoos in your family background than you suspect!