organisers telling guests what to sing

Subject: organisers telling guestswhat to sing
From: The Sandman
Date: 18 Apr 07 - 03:30 AM

I recently had a club organiser ring me up and ask me to do a booking,providing I only sang English folksongs not Irish.
what are viewers opinions on this.

Subject: RE: organisers telling guestswhat to sing
From: Peace
Date: 18 Apr 07 - 03:40 AM

The English have written some good songs. More important than my opinions are your opinions. What are they?

Subject: RE: organisers telling guestswhat to sing
From: Jim Lad
Date: 18 Apr 07 - 03:47 AM

His venue. I don't do Polish Clubs for the same reason.

Subject: RE: organisers telling guestswhat to sing
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 18 Apr 07 - 03:56 AM

Legitimate condition. If that's what he wants, you can decide whether to accept teh booking or not. What would notbe legitimate would be to make the booking and then seek to impose the reuqest.

Subject: RE: organisers telling guestswhat to sing
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 18 Apr 07 - 04:00 AM

I'm all for clubs having policies - but this is, surely, a step too far! A lot of English songs seem to have Irish origins and vice versa - I would have thought that the two traditions are too intertwined to be easily separated.

Subject: RE: organisers telling guestswhat to sing
From: alanabit
Date: 18 Apr 07 - 04:25 AM

I think Shimrod has got a point. Some songs, which I would say have entered the Irish tradition, include:
Clare to Here - written by a Londoner
The Wild Rover - collected in Norfolk
No Man's Land - written by a Scot, who lives in Australia...
Any Mudcatter could extend that list. My fear is that a debate about,"What is English folk?" could turn out to be every bit as contentious as that other old chestnut!

Subject: RE: organisers telling guestswhat to sing
From: Joe Offer
Date: 18 Apr 07 - 04:45 AM

Well, I have to say I get bored if I hear too many songs in a language I can't understand - so I suppose I might not want to book a performer who did only Irish-language songs. Don't know that I'd want to book a performer who did only Clancy Brothers pub songs, either. And I certainly wouldn't want to book anybody who does that horrid country-western stuff I heard in the West of Ireland. Irish music covers a wide spectrum - I wonder what the organizer means.

-Joe-

Subject: RE: organisers telling guestswhat to sing
From: Marje
Date: 18 Apr 07 - 05:10 AM

I think it's fair enough for a club to have its own policy or guidelines as to what sort of material they want, as long as they make this lcear from the outset. Of course it's possible to argue about the overlaps and the marginal cases, but to ask for a song/tune set that is generally English is not unreasonable, especially if the club is in England.

Marje

Subject: RE: organisers telling guestswhat to sing
From: The Sandman
Date: 18 Apr 07 - 05:14 AM

I never mentioned whether the organiser was male or female[JimLad].neither did I mention what country it happened in.
I am English,my grandfather was Irish,my grandmother was half german,the other grandparents were english.
I have lived in Ireland for seventeen years.
Ihave always included in my repertoire songs that I like whether they be English, Irish ,Scottish,or occassionally American[BuffaloSkinners].
The organiser was Irish[and has lived in the area less time than myself]and wanted me to sing English folksongs not Irish,I suspect he /she,has the belief that people should sing songs from where they come from,Iam trying to be charitable assuming the best not the worst[that nobody apart from Irish people should sing Irish songs].
I believe that when choosing a song,you choose it firstly because you like it,whether its Irish, scottish, english.
the artist has a right to decide his own repertoire.
Finally how would an Irishman like to be told by an Englishman,that he should only sing Irish songs.
As I say although I am nominally english[like most english people,Iam a mix of Irish and other].

Subject: RE: organisers telling guestswhat to sing
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 18 Apr 07 - 05:21 AM

Well, a booking for St Patrick's night might well legitimately require Irish songs, and a booking for St George's day might well legitimately require English songs, and I also think there is something to be said for people concentrating on their own tradition, rather than being cuckoos in the nests of another.

Subject: RE: organisers telling guestswhat to sing
From: GUEST,Dáithí
Date: 18 Apr 07 - 05:23 AM

I'm half of a duo called Gone to the Dogs, and am Irish although I have been here in England since I was a boy.The other half of the duo has Irish parents - and some 90% of our repertoire is Irish, a mixture of trad, pub and Pogues.
It's very clear from our publicity material the kind of stuff we do...and we've just been booked by a guy (who has been to one of our recent pub gigs) for a private function- to play after their St Geotges Day Dinner!
You work it out, cos I can't!!

le gach dea-ghuí
Dáithí

Subject: RE: organisers telling guestswhat to sing
From: GUEST,Puck
Date: 18 Apr 07 - 05:33 AM

Subject: RE: organisers telling guestswhat to sing
From: concertina ceol
Date: 18 Apr 07 - 05:33 AM

You could do a song from Mexborough :-)

Seriously, who is to know where songs come from. A lot of songs considered "Irish" were collected in England and vica versa.

Another example is tunes - Scan Tester was not known for his extensive travels from the South East of England but amoungst his tunes were "scottish" and "irish" tunes.

Abbots Broley Horn dancers now dance to an "American" tune so I understand.

You could start your set with "the blacksmith" and "Raggle Taggle Gypsies" as these were definitely both collected in England to prove a point then just do your normal set. I thought that you wrote (and performed) your one material anyway? If so your set will be "nominally english" as you are.

all the best.

Subject: RE: organisers telling guestswhat to sing
From: dj bass
Date: 18 Apr 07 - 05:40 AM

I agree that it's up to the club to decide its own policy and how rigidly it adheres to it. I think the latter part is important.

I'm in a band that plays mainly English traditional music. To us, the "mainly" is important. We do a couple of songs that are not English and a couple that are not traditional, including at least 2 that are neither English nor traditional. Personally, I'd be uneasy about not being able to sing a particular song that I liked because its origins lay in the "wrong" country or the wrong century. Some ensembles, however, do restrict themselves to a particular region or era. Good for them! If artistes can do this, why not clubs?

We won't be asking any jazz or blues clubs for gigs, although we would be happy to play our mainly English music anywhere in the world if invited to do so (and it's viable!).

dj

Subject: RE: organisers telling guestswhat to sing
From: The Sandman
Date: 18 Apr 07 - 06:01 AM

RICHARD BRIDGE ,The traditions of England, Ireland, Scotland Wales,are intertwined and cannot be seperated entirely.there has always been interchange of music between these countries.
I was flabbergasted by this organisers request[although it does show she had an awareness that the English have a tradition as well,some Irish people seem to think only the Irish have traditional music]to me its a bit like asking George Papavageris to sing only greek songs because he is of Greek extraction,apologies George if I have this wrong.
RichardBridge,I believethat I sing irish songs as well as I do English songs,What is important with singing is having an empathy with the song,this is what helps you to sing it well,not whether the song is from Brighton or Saltcoats or Ennis or Swansea.

Subject: RE: organisers telling guests what to sing
From: Jack Campin
Date: 18 Apr 07 - 06:08 AM

Maybe the organizer was simply trying to avoid booking yet another Clancy Brothers tribute act?

I don't know what sort of stuff Captain Birdseye does, but if it includes both stuff the local audience was well and truly bored with and other pieces they might find fresh, "no Irish songs" might well correlate with that distinction.

Subject: RE: organisers telling guestswhat to sing
From: GUEST,MC Fat
Date: 18 Apr 07 - 06:12 AM

I was once booked to play an 'Oirish' pub during the plastic paddy Irish pub period. When we set up the landlady welcomed us with the following retort 'Don't play any irish stuff the punters don't like it'. Imagine our surprise then when the landlord came up near the end of our first set and ' Why aren't you playing any Irish stuff'. My reply to him was unprintable !!

Subject: RE: organisers telling guestswhat to sing
From: Marje
Date: 18 Apr 07 - 07:17 AM

In judging whether the club is being reasonable or sensible, a lot depends on whether the rules are about the club as a whole or about the performer personally.

If, as you're implying, Cap'n B, the organiser is asking each person to contribute only songs from what s/he (the organiser) considers to be that person's background, that's a bit difficult to defend. I thought that approach had been laid to rest a long time ago, and I don't think a club organiser has the right to decide what's appropriate for the performer from a personal point of view.

Looking at it from the club's point of view:
IF it's a club in England - and you haven't said where it is - that strengthens their case. It's not unreasonable for an English club to concentrate on English material, or to have certain nights when they do this. It's not to be on 23 April, it it?

IF, on the other hand, the club is elsewhere (say Ireland or Scotland) I can see that a club that is looking for a varied selection of acts might invite someone who lives in or comes from another country to contribute songs from that country - that would also be quite understandable. Some clubs jump at the chance to get authentic performances of material from other areas or countries, to make a change from the residents' repertoire.

A lot depends on how the policies/guidelines are applied to other performers. If you could tell us that, we'd have a better idea what's going on here. If you don't actually know that, you may be misunderstanding what's being asked of you.

Marje

Subject: RE: organisers telling guestswhat to sing
From: pirandello
Date: 18 Apr 07 - 07:41 AM

Surely it's the quality of the performance which is important and not the ethnicity of the material?
Personally I wouldn't accept a booking from somewhere which sounded as narrow-minded as this place.
Tell' em you have your set, which you have rehearsed and they can take it or leave it.
I never heard of a performer being dictated to like this; it's ridiculous.

Subject: RE: organisers telling guestswhat to sing
From: Bee
Date: 18 Apr 07 - 08:06 AM

Wht not ask the club organiser what s/he meant? The person might just have an aversion to what is called (over here, anyway) 'Irish pub' style music, and be ignorant of all the overlaps.

Subject: RE: organisers telling guestswhat to sing
From: GUEST,HughM
Date: 18 Apr 07 - 08:13 AM

Reading between the lines a bit, it sounds as though the club is in Ireland and the organiser wants English songs because he can get Irish ones any day of the week. That sounds reasonable to me.

Subject: RE: organisers telling guestswhat to sing
From: GUEST,HughM
Date: 18 Apr 07 - 08:17 AM

Hit the tab key and sent it before I'd finished again! What I was going to say is that according to F. Wood's "Current English Usage" the masculine is the common gender in a context like this. (Just in case the organiser is female!)

Subject: RE: organisers telling guestswhat to sing
From: Marje
Date: 18 Apr 07 - 08:24 AM

The pedantically humorous way of expressing this, Hugh, is "the male embraces the female".
Sorry, I know it's toe-curlingly twee.

Marje

Subject: RE: organisers telling guestswhat to sing
From: Leadfingers
Date: 18 Apr 07 - 08:25 AM

There is one Sing-a-Round local to me that I no longer bother going to because the organiser delights in telling singers what they should perform !

Subject: RE: organisers telling guestswhat to sing
From: The Sandman
Date: 18 Apr 07 - 08:32 AM

the club is in Ireland.
the organiser was aking me to sing english songs because I have an english accent and she is assuming im English[in fact im part english irish german].Idont know any german songs.
THE ORGANISER has booked me before,and I sang what I liked and will do so again,I might even sing an australian song,even though I have no australian blood.
THE ORGANISER also knows I do not sing irish pub style music.
Pirandello is right its the quality of the performancethartt is of paramount importance.

Subject: RE: organisers telling guestswhat to sing
From: fiddler
Date: 18 Apr 07 - 08:58 AM

Well,

If I got a barn dance booking I do in some cases get asked for Scottish or american or English - I can oblige.

I am being booked to provide what the person paying me wants me to do. If I get an open ended booking then I give a cross section of my favourite dances.

If they don't tell me until after we have an agreement then that is tuff they may get what they want but....

I see nothing wrong in this. If that is not what you do or want to do then you refuse the booking and live more frugally!

Andy

Subject: RE: organisers telling guestswhat to sing
From: The Sandman
Date: 18 Apr 07 - 09:13 AM

to jack campin,if you would like to hear some of my material there are clips on my websitea href="http://www.dickmiles.com">http://www.dickmiles.com

Subject: RE: organisers telling guestswhat to sing
From: The Sandman
Date: 18 Apr 07 - 09:15 AM

http://www.dickmiles.com

Subject: RE: organisers telling guestswhat to sing
From: Marje
Date: 18 Apr 07 - 09:58 AM

Now you've explained the background, it sounds to me as if the club would prefer you to do English songs because you have (as you say) an English accent and a substantially English background.
I'd guess that they already get plenty of Irish stuff and would welcome a bit of variety. Since they've heard you before, they now know what you'll do if they don't specify their preferences, and they evidently prefer you doing English material. That doesn't sound unreasonable to me.

I don't think you (or they) can make any assumptions about your "blood"; it's your musical experience and background that count. Of course quality matters too, but I don't see why the quality should be any different if you do English songs and tunes.

The club are presumably paying you, so they're entitled to say what they'd like to hear from you. If you can't or won't put together a good-quality English set, then just say so and forget it.


Marje

Subject: RE: organisers telling guestswhat to sing
From: GUEST
Date: 18 Apr 07 - 10:07 AM

If the organizer knows you well, then can it be you do the English stuff better, and he finds your interpretation of (or your accent during) Irish songs, well, sucky? And rather than tell you that directly, he has found a way to objectively ask you to do what you do best without getting personal?

Subject: RE: organisers telling guests what to sing
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 18 Apr 07 - 10:14 AM

well now we know how to flabbergast Captain Birdseye.

I bet his crispy cod medallions are hanging by a thread.

Subject: RE: organisers telling guests what to sing
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 18 Apr 07 - 10:26 AM

The fact that the club is in Ireland puts rather a different complexion on things (I'm struggling to get my head round it at the moment). Actually, I can't help thinking that it all sounds rather healthy and open-minded - Irish people wanting to know about English folk song - no disrespect to the Irish, but good on them!

Subject: RE: organisers telling guests what to sing
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 18 Apr 07 - 10:29 AM

absolutely - perhaps we should offer them membership of the commonwealth - then we could send them proper cultural events on a regular basis.

Subject: RE: organisers telling guests what to sing
From: Jim Lad
Date: 18 Apr 07 - 11:22 AM

"The traditions of England, Ireland, Scotland Wales, are intertwined and cannot be separated entirely" !!!?
Well you certainly do know how to stir things up. I'm not taking you to seriously here.
Dick: There's some pretty good networking going on in one of the "Myspace" threads. Slip over there when you get the chance. I'd love to have you as a friend.

Subject: RE: organisers telling guests what to sing
From: Anne Lister
Date: 18 Apr 07 - 11:44 AM

To take an analogy - if I'm doing a storytelling booking, because I have a wide range of possible stories I generally ask the organiser what kind of stories they would prefer (ie Greek myths, King Arthur, Welsh folk tales etc) and certainly have no problem with the organiser telling me what they have in mind. I've also had people make requests well ahead of a gig to ensure that certain songs are included in a concert booking - and that's a whole lot better than being asked on the spot to do something I haven't rehearsed or thought of for a few years. Then there are the themed nights or festival events when the task is finding the "right" songs to sing .. specifying an origin for songs is surely only another way of looking at this?
So I don't, personally, have any problem with an organiser asking specifically for a range of my material - in fact, I think it's quite a good challenge to sift through to find songs to fit. Isn't it a compliment, that this organiser knows your repertoire is wide enough to make these choices?

Enjoyed our mini session in Ballydehob, incidentally - we'll have to do it again some time, minus the picturesque drunks!

Anne

Subject: RE: organisers telling guests what to sing
From: LesB
Date: 18 Apr 07 - 02:19 PM

The way I see it is that a club organiser will be familiar with an artists work / repertoire & either book them or not accoringly. The only exception that I can see to this, is an artist that is booked for a special occasion. Such as a long etablised artist booked for a significant celebration. For instance booking say Johnny Handel for a clubs 40th birthday & asking him to do a lot of the old songs would not be unreasonable.
Cheers
Les

Subject: RE: organisers telling guests what to sing
From: BB
Date: 18 Apr 07 - 02:51 PM

As a professional performer, I would say that my attitude is, 'He who pays the piper calls the tune.' If someone says that they want a a light programme, or nothing too heavy, we don't go there and sing Child ballads. If it's a maritime festival and they say they want to concentrate on songs about fishing, that's what they get, in the main. If it's a tourist farm venue, and they want positive songs about farming, that's what we'll give them. Etc., etc.

Dick, I quite agree with whoever it was that said you should see it as a positive sign that an Irish club wants a programme of English songs, and a compliment to you and your singing of them, too. As they already know your performances, they obviously think that you do them justice, and it shouldn't be a problem for you as I know that you don't have a fixed 'set' at any one time. They probably don't get a chance to hear good English material very often, or not without bringing in people from England, so make the most of it!

And I do feel quite strongly that we are the ones being paid, so we should do what our employers want or refuse the bookings. Or perhaps I'm more sympathetic to that view as I'm an organiser as well, and I'm not averse to telling people that I'm trying to book to keep it relatively light and lively if they want the booking, because I know that they won't get a very good reception at the club I run if they are serious too much of the time, and my club likes a good few chorus songs as well. Mind you, I do try to book people that are likely to fit in with that anyway. But there are a few who I know do quite a lot of serious ballads who I would like to book, but could only come on the basis of what I've said above.

I'd really like to hear what other pro. artists think about this.

Barbara

Subject: RE: organisers telling guests what to sing
From: Marje
Date: 18 Apr 07 - 03:12 PM

I'm far from being a pro, but as a follow-up to my last post I'd like to endorse what Barbara has said. Rather than take offence because they haven't given you free rein as to what to do, take their request as a compliment to your versatility - they know you can do a wide range of things, but they'd like to hear you do English stuff this time. It's not everyone that can persuade the Irish that English music is worth listening to, so you can be flattered by their choice.

Marje

Subject: RE: organisers telling guests what to sing
From: Greg B
Date: 18 Apr 07 - 03:16 PM

Take the booking and open with 'The Boyne Water.'

Subject: RE: organisers telling guests what to sing
From: Jim Lad
Date: 18 Apr 07 - 03:18 PM

BB: We are!

Subject: RE: organisers telling guests what to sing
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 18 Apr 07 - 03:24 PM

Nothing should impair an artistic vision and the aesthetic choices of a true artist

You'd be sorry if he cut off his ear.

Subject: RE: organisers telling guests what to sing
From: Bert
Date: 18 Apr 07 - 04:30 PM

You're taking it too seriously. It sounds like a fun gig to me. There's no shortage of songs to choose from. Go do it and enjoy it.

Subject: RE: organisers telling guests what to sing
From: Jim Lad
Date: 18 Apr 07 - 04:35 PM

Oh, I think Dick's having plenty of fun right here.

Subject: RE: organisers telling guests what to sing
From: Uncle_DaveO
Date: 18 Apr 07 - 04:47 PM

Captain Birdseye, you are completely correct when you say:

the artist has a right to decide his own repertoire.

And it is also correct to say that "The organiser has a right to specify the program he wants when he speaks to talent."   If he wants to do it, he's within his rights to say, "I only want Chinese or Ecuadorean songs."

And the singer involved is completely within his rights to tell him, in emphatic tones, "Up yours, Jack!"

Dave Oesterreich

Subject: RE: organisers telling guests what to sing
From: Scoville
Date: 18 Apr 07 - 04:48 PM

I guess I'd have to hear the organizer's reasons. We recently did a little thing for a local German heritage society, warning them up front that we didn't know a single German tune. They didn't care; they just wanted to give the emcee a break while lunch was served (which wasn't German food, either. Go figure).

But if somebody asks us specfically for Irish tunes, no Irish tunes, Christas carols, no alcohol references, gospel, whatever, we do our best to oblige, within the scope of our repertoire. We're not in the habit, though, of learning whole new song-lists on demand. If we might have played it anyway, fine.

Subject: RE: organisers telling guests what to sing
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 18 Apr 07 - 06:11 PM

"absolutely - perhaps we should offer them membership of the commonwealth - then we could send them proper cultural events on a regular basis."

Why am I not surprised that you chose to take my comments that way, WLD?

The fact is that, as an Englishman, and a fan of English traditional music, I've still always had an interest in, and appreciation for, Irish music. But I suspect that, because of the appalling treatment of the Irish nation by the English in the past, some Irish people may not have been prepared to give English music a fair hearing. Nowadays, I get the impression, that the relationship between ordinary English people and ordinary Irish people is much improved (at least I hope so). That may be why the organisers of the Irish club asked Capn B to do his English stuff - because they're genuinely interested in it. Personally, I think it's healthier to share our cultures than to be at loggerheads!

Subject: RE: organisers telling guests what to sing
From: wysiwyg
Date: 18 Apr 07 - 07:03 PM

They didn't tell you what to sing-- they just told you what kind of singer they'll hire. :~)

~S~

Subject: RE: organisers telling guests what to sing
From: GUEST,Geoff Wright
Date: 19 Apr 07 - 07:06 AM

So, Jim Lad won't do Polish Clubs? Has he taken the "pledge", or didn't he take a "shine" to them?

Subject: RE: organisers telling guests what to sing
From: Blowzabella
Date: 19 Apr 07 - 07:27 AM

In my job, I organise a lot of events which have themes and seek music to fit those themes. If I am enquring about booking an artist / group, I will explain that what I am looking for is someone who will follow that theme. The theme will often be followed in the food served, the way the room is decorated etc. I would be very disappointed if I booked performers for, say, a Jacobite event - having discussed it with them beforehand - and they then turned up and sang an evening of sea shanties. I wouldn't knowingly, of course, book a shanty group for such an occasion. In the same way that I would be upset if the caterers served roast beef and yorkshire pudding at such an event.

It has, on occasion, come as a surprise to performers that we do stick to the theme - so many maritime festivals have virtually no maritime music - just any old jazz band or tribute act.

I like to think that with events like these we are all working together to create a whole experience for the audience and if I asked a performer to give an evening of xxxx I would hope they would tell me straight away if their repertoire didn't cover that. I would definitely be more likely to bear them in mind for a future gig, than if they turned up and performed their usual material, and confused the punters, who would be expecting the theme to be followed.

Subject: RE: organisers telling guests what to sing
From: Willie-O
Date: 19 Apr 07 - 12:28 PM

There's a difference between programming a special event, whether a cultural festival or wedding, and a club booking.

I think it's much more respectful to the performer's judgment, when booking for a club or pub evening, to suggest what type of material the booker WOULD like to hear. Telling them what NOT to play, based on arbitrary (and imprecise) criteria, is not a good start. A few hints about the audience--age range, perhaps even cultural/political tendencies if they are well-defined--are helpful and any seasoned performer will take these into account when planning a program.

W-O

Subject: RE: organisers telling guests what to sing
From: Bernard
Date: 19 Apr 07 - 12:43 PM

As far as I'm concerned, if a club wishes to book me, they already know what I do and respect that!

Seriously, my 'act' (for want of a better word!) depends entirely upon me doing my own thing, as does Dick's. If an organiser is too prescriptive, it will inhibit my spontaneity, resulting in a sub-standard performance.

As many have already mentioned, the lines are very blurred between what is perceived as an Irish song and what is perceived as an English song...

Maybe the person in question merely meant they didn't want blatantly 'Irish Rebel Songs'? Or maybe they didn't really know what they meant at all!!

Subject: RE: organisers telling guests what to sing
From: Janice in NJ
Date: 19 Apr 07 - 03:08 PM

I don't understand what the controversy is all about. If a manager, owner, host, organizer, program director, etc. wishes to engage your services, if the songs requested are within your repertoire, and if your principles are not violated, then go ahead and accept the gig and the limitations that go with it. If you would rather not accept those limitations, then politely turn down the offer. It's that simple.

Subject: RE: organisers telling guests what to sing
From: BB
Date: 19 Apr 07 - 03:12 PM

Couldn't agree more, Janice.

Barbara

Subject: RE: organisers telling guests what to sing
From: Jim Lad
Date: 19 Apr 07 - 03:24 PM

Dang Polish! It's like they have a different word for everything!