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Subject: What's so wrong about Barbershop? From: Mike Miller Date: 22 Jul 07 - 01:11 AM I have, always, kind of wondered why "folkies" embrace some traditions and pay short shrift to others. While shape-note singing is, both, acceptable and worthwhile, barbersop quartet harmony is virtually ignored and trivialized. Bluegrass is in, polka bands are out. With banjos, it's 5 strings, good, and 4 strings, bad. I think the choices are as political as they are generational. We tend to get into mindsets. I hated brussel sprouts and beets since I was a kid but, now, I, only, hate beets. (Winnie Winston loved brussel sprouts. He made me try them again). I joined a barbershop chorus. It was the most fun I have had, singing. You guys ought to try it. I started playing tenor banjo for jobs. A tenor is a great strolling instrument. It is festive, it can be heard, it is as defining as a costume. No one, ever, asks a tenor banjo player to play the latest rock hit. I am not in a polka band, more's the pity. I am in a bluegrass trio and we do Pennsylvania Polka and Clarinet Polka, on request. They make great bluegrass numbers. Mike |
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Subject: RE: What's so wrong about Barbershop? From: Big Mick Date: 22 Jul 07 - 01:23 AM Mike, I am a huge fan of Barbershop, and the other singer in our Irish band comes from a Barbershop background. Makes for some excellent harmony in our songs. I'm with you on this one. Mick |
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Subject: RE: What's so wrong about Barbershop? From: Peace Date: 22 Jul 07 - 01:27 AM "What's so wrong about Barbershop?" Nothin'. But that's speakin' for me. I ain't a folkie. "You guys ought to try it [barbershop]." How do you know we haven't? |
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Subject: RE: What's so wrong about Barbershop? From: The Fooles Troupe Date: 22 Jul 07 - 01:49 AM I have always loved the techniques. |
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Subject: RE: What's so wrong about Barbershop? From: Little Robyn Date: 22 Jul 07 - 04:52 AM Barbershop style of singing is fine and fun but it's the choice of songs that I don't enjoy. The same with 4 string banjo - if they're being used for the music I like, that's fine, but if you were to play tin pan alley stuff or pop songs on a fiddle or pipes or concertina, well, I won't be staying around to listen. Robyn |
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Subject: RE: What's so wrong about Barbershop? From: Marje Date: 22 Jul 07 - 05:00 AM I have listened to barbershop concerts and tried to think why I don't entirely enjoy it. I can see that it's skillfully done and that the singers are really having fun as well as working hard to communicate and entertain. So why doesn't it work for me? I think it's something to do with the sentimentality of the delivery - all that exaggerated changing of tempo and volume, combined with the choreography, which just makes me uncomfortable. By contrast, traditional/folk music is often done in a very unsentimental way (more so in the UK than in the US I think) which I find far more affecting and engaging. That's how I feel; of course there are other issues like the close-harmony style that defines barbershop - you either like it or you don't. The repertoire tends to be grounded in American popular music of the mid-20th century, which may not appeal to everyone. And then there's the dress code, which is quite at odds with the sorts of style favoured at folk events. I'm sure that there are plenty of people who like both, while some of us just respond better to folk music. And for that matter, I expect there are barbershop enthusiasts who just don't "get" folk music when they hear it - they probably find it a bit rough and earthy, too earnest, too casual in its presentation and not polished enough. But I agree we should keep an open mind and not dismiss whole areas of music without giving them a try. Marje |
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Subject: RE: What's so wrong about Barbershop? From: GUEST Date: 22 Jul 07 - 05:10 AM There's something about barbershop that annoys me - There is a certain monotony in the dynamics that bugs me.
Thanks. -Joe Offer, Forum Moderator- |
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Subject: RE: What's so wrong about Barbershop? From: John MacKenzie Date: 22 Jul 07 - 05:22 AM Enjoy a couple or three numbers and that's enough for me, but WHY oh WHY do they have to dress up like that? G. |
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Subject: RE: What's so wrong about Barbershop? From: Ernest Date: 22 Jul 07 - 05:51 AM "Barbershop" sounds dangerous if you like a beard like many folkies do... ;0) And for the tenor banjo: in irish music it is more often heard than the 5-string. Sounds like you have it seen only in connection with (dressed-up?) dixie bands. So here`s the next kind of music for you to explore... Best Ernest |
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Subject: RE: What's so wrong about Barbershop? From: paddymac Date: 22 Jul 07 - 05:55 AM I snag barbershop for twenty years. It was great fun when it worked. The form is gradually spreading around the world. There was also a Sweet Adelines (women singing in the barbershop style) chorus in town, and we frequently did shows/concert together. The men's group could be a bit stodgy and anal retentive about questions of repetoire, while the women's group was for more progressive in that area. THe group (SPEBSQA) loved to party. We had two annual national/international conventions, two state level conventions, a special "summer school" with superb instructors on all manner of relevant topics, and a very popular Labor Day weekend retreat. The "meeting" aspect of these gaterings was minimal. Most of the time was spent in more collegial activities, like tune swaps, parodies, and tag singing. Great fun. I left it when I went back to school and just didn't have the time for it any more. |
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Subject: RE: What's so wrong about Barbershop? From: Dave Hanson Date: 22 Jul 07 - 06:03 AM In the UK you hear as many tenor banjos as 5 strings in folk music. Barbershop as a tradition doesn't appear to have much of a pedigree, whereas folkmusic and song go back forever. eric |
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Subject: RE: What's so wrong about Barbershop? From: George Papavgeris Date: 22 Jul 07 - 06:31 AM I love the harmonies; I find the majority of the songs "twee", and the get-up and whole presentation reminds me of the worst sort of the old kind of seaside comedians, all lame suits and false smiles. But I luuuurve the harmonies. |
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Subject: RE: What's so wrong about Barbershop? From: MartinRyan Date: 22 Jul 07 - 07:00 AM Similar experience. Sang in a chorus for a few years. Enjoyed it and found it benefited my singing all round - better breathing, better sense of pitch, more reliable harmonies. BUT - the songs themselves are ultimately boring! Regards |
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Subject: RE: What's so wrong about Barbershop? From: Linda Goodman Zebooker Date: 22 Jul 07 - 07:44 AM Some years ago in Chautauqua NY, our mainly classical community choir did a program in conjunction with our big local men's barbershop group. In the nine years I was with the Jamestown Choral Society, that concert is one of my absolute favorites. I still listen to a tape I made of one the rehearsals. Our choir did a very straightforward arrangement of "Annie Laurie", which I've since sung at an Open Sing and people have thanked me for doing it -they like the song so much. We also all sang "God Bless America"- the performance was right after the Oklahoma City bombing, and that sentimental, patriotic song suddenly seemed very appropriate and healing. Best of all was performing the song "Lida Rose/Will I Ever Tell You" from the musical "The Music Man". While the ladies in my choir sang "Will I Ever Tell You", we were wooed by our men singers and thirty guys in green satin jackets and bow ties singing "Lida Rose". My heart is still a'flutter at the memory! It's like any music, if you put in overly sentimental elements, it gets cloying. If you put your heart into it, and the emotions are genuine, then it resonates. --Linda |
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Subject: RE: What's so wrong about Barbershop? From: Azizi Date: 22 Jul 07 - 07:58 AM "Barbershop as a tradition doesn't appear to have much of a pedigree, whereas folkmusic and song go back forever".-eric the red With regard to the history of barbershop singing, you might be interested in this article that I found on the barbershop.org website: "The historical roots of barbershop harmony" By Dr. Jim Henry, bass, The Gas House Gang, 1993 International Quartet Champion Here's a longish excerpt from that article: "...Barbershop quartets often are characterized as four dandies, perhaps bedecked with straw hats, striped vests and handlebar mustaches. These caricatures of the barbershop tradition are not only a quaint symbol of small-town Americana, but have some historical foundation. Barbershop music was indeed borne out of informal gatherings of amateur singers in such unpretentious settings as the local barber shop. But modern scholarship is demonstrating with greater and greater authority that while the stereotype seems to have successfully retained the trappings of the early barbershop harmony tradition, it breaks down on one key point. If you visualized the characters described above as you were reading, you probably pictured them -- like Rockwell did over sixty years ago -- as white men. And therein lies barbershop music's greatest enigma: it is associated with and practiced today mostly by whites, yet it is primarily a product of the African-American culture. Historical evidence The African-American origins theory is not new. Several of our early Society members and recent historians have made the assertion, or at least suggested an African-American influence upon barbershop harmony. But it was a non-Barbershopper, Lynn Abbott, who in the Fall 1992 issue of American Music published, "'Play That Barber Shop Chord': A Case for the African-American Origin of Barbershop Harmony," presented the most thoroughly documented exploration into the roots of barbershop to appear up to that time. In that writing, Abbott draws from rare turn-of-the-twentieth-century articles, passages from books long out of print, and reminiscences of early quartet singing by African-American musicians, including Jelly Roll Morton and Louis Armstrong, to argue that barbershop music is indeed a product of the African-American musical tradition... The earliest white quartet recordings are rife with minstrel show conventions which included negro dialect and other parodies of the African-American culture, suggesting an African-American association with the music. Early musicians associated barbershop music with blacks ... Among Abbott's findings are specific early musical referecnes [sic]that suggest that barbershop was once acknowledged as African-American music... and the earliest known reference to barbershop music is associated with black quartets... It is unknown exactly when or why barbershop music became associated with whites. Abbott cites African-American author James Weldon Johnson who, in the introduction to his Book of American Negro Spirituals, published in 1925, offers a hint at how the association might have shifted: It may sound like an extravagant claim, but it is, nevertheless a fact that the "barber-shop chord" is the foundation of the close harmony method adopted by American musicians in making arrangements for male voices. ... "Barber-shop harmonies" gave a tremendous vogue to male quartet singing, first on the minstrel stage, then in vaudeville; and soon white young men, where four or more gathered together, tried themselves at "harmonizing." There is additional support for the effluence of barbershop music from black neighborhoods into the white mainstream, as suggested by Johnson, in its parallel with other forms of African-American music..." http://www.barbershop.org/web/groups/public/documents/pages/pub_cb_00167.hcsp And the beat goes on. |
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Subject: RE: What's so wrong about Barbershop? From: Leadfingers Date: 22 Jul 07 - 08:13 AM A couple of years back , I spent some time looking for three other guys to form a vocal group to sing fancy harmonies at open air cooking parties - We were going to be called a Barbecue Quartet . OK - I'll get my coat ! |
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Subject: RE: What's so wrong about Barbershop? From: John MacKenzie Date: 22 Jul 07 - 08:18 AM You haven't got enough time, RUN! G |
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Subject: RE: What's so wrong about Barbershop? From: Mike Miller Date: 22 Jul 07 - 08:59 AM I am pleased to hear from so many barbershop polecats. I am, somewhat, surprised that some of you differentiate between barbershop and folk. I don't care what your defination of folk is, barbershop, definitelt, qualifies. Of course, the repitore tends to be limited. So does every genre of traditional music. The songs are, indeed, American classics from the gilded age and the costumes, which are not unlike music hall garb, are comparable to such recreation mindsets as Morris dancing or historical reenactment. The formality of the costuming harkens back to a time when performers understood that their appearence was an important aspect of their presentation. There can be no doubt that, musically, barbershoppers live in the past and, if that doesn't qualify them as traditional, I don't know what does. Mike |
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Subject: RE: What's so wrong about Barbershop? From: Dave Hanson Date: 22 Jul 07 - 09:08 AM I can't agree, ' barbershop ' is a precisely arranged music, which most folk music traditions are not. eric |
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Subject: RE: What's so wrong about Barbershop? From: Joe Offer Date: 22 Jul 07 - 09:31 AM Sometimes, Barbershop sounds a bit to "packaged" to me. It can lack the human touch, since they practice so hard to get an almost military precision to their harmonies and costumes and hand motions and all. The competition can be a bit much, too. But most of the time, I think it's a lot of fun. I haven't done it much, but I enjoy the opportunity to sing barbershop when I can. I've noticed that barbershoppers seem to be dong a lot more doo-wop songs lately, and I really love doo-wop. I went to a barbershop competition a few years back, and I'd say the majority of the finalists were doing doo-wop instead of the older "Down By the Old Mill Stream" type of songs. I could sing "Duke of Earl" all day long. -Joe- |
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Subject: RE: What's so wrong about Barbershop? From: Azizi Date: 22 Jul 07 - 10:21 AM It seems that people posting to this thread don't care to talk about the origin and history of barbershop quartet music. Admittedly, the history of this musical genre is not the topic of this thread, but still... And some people wonder why Mudcat has so few people of color... |
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Subject: RE: What's so wrong about Barbershop? From: Marje Date: 22 Jul 07 - 10:27 AM I should have made it clear that I was speaking from a UK perspective. We do have an active and enthusiastic barbershop movement in this country, but songs/tunes that were composed in the 20th century wouldn't be regarded as traditional, especially when they have known lyricists and composers, and the core barbershop repertoire would never be described as "folk songs" in the UK. As Eric says above, the precision of the arrangements and staging of barbershop songs is at variance with the folk tradition and processes. For some reason, singers' appearance as part of the presentation has never been regarded as important in folk. Showy dress is a normal feature of folk dance/morris groups, mummers, etc, but not of singing or instrumental groups. There are sound historical reasons why this is the case in folk and not in barbershop, and it's just one of the things that separates the two kinds of music. I'm not saying any of this makes barbershop a less valid or appealing kind of music, I'm just trying to explain how it differs from folk/traditional music as I understand the terms. Now, how long before someone comes up with the quote about the horse? Marje |
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Subject: RE: What's so wrong about Barbershop? From: John MacKenzie Date: 22 Jul 07 - 10:39 AM Sorry Azizi but that's a sweeping statement if ever I heard one. I was one of those who posted in this thread, and I know NOTHING about the history of Barbershop, but I assume from your post it is not to your liking. It is open to you to enlighten those of us who know nothing about it, rather to snipe at those you assume DO know the history. On the other hand I think the thread is about barbershop as an art form and not as an object lesson. Giok |
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Subject: RE: What's so wrong about Barbershop? From: Uncle Boko Date: 22 Jul 07 - 10:40 AM It sounds so bloody awful, that's what is wrong with it. |
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Subject: RE: What's so wrong about Barbershop? From: Uncle_DaveO Date: 22 Jul 07 - 10:46 AM Pleeeeze, not that stupid ancient wheeze about the horse! Which is always offered with the implication that it's something fresh and clever, which only makes it worse. Dave Oesterreich |
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Subject: RE: What's so wrong about Barbershop? From: Amos Date: 22 Jul 07 - 12:02 PM Barbershop is a loverly art, when well done, and a testimony to the beauty that can be achieved with the human voice in a formal disciplined coordination. So, indeed, is opera. It would not make much sense to argue, therefore, that opera is folk. Even though, in some cultures and some places, spontaneous exchanges of arias occurs. Barbershop is arranged music, carefully orchestrated. Folk music, in the most ordinary use of the term, is neither arranged nor orchestrated, although it can be transferred into tight orchestration. But doing so tends to lose some of the naive vitality which makes it folk music. Glee clubs aren't folk music, either, even when singing "Old Black Joe" or "Shenandoah". The reason some folkies, myself included, disliked the preppy squads of the Folk Scare, such as the Kingston Trio and a few others, is that they were more formed in the tradition of the glee club, and less actual roots music. Their acts were pleasant enough in themselves, but they were polished for performance in a way that lost the flavor of the original context. And to me, real folk music is about the context. I could write a lot more about why this is, but in a sense its like jazz; if ya gotta ask... A |
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Subject: RE: What's so wrong about Barbershop? From: Azizi Date: 22 Jul 07 - 12:11 PM John 'Giok' MacKenzie, I did not mean to imply by either of my post to this thread that I liked or disliked Barbershop music. In my first post to this thread, in response to a statement that eric the red made, I attempted to share information about the origin and history of barbershop music. In my second post to this thread I noted that no one who had posted to this thread acknowledged or commented about the post I had made about that history-presumably because no one was interested in that aspect of the discussion. My last statement of my second comment reflected my opinion regarding why this forum has so few Black people or other people of color. I made two assumptions in that statement- 1. If there were an online folk/blues discussion forum somewhat like Mudcat [in which members and guests could create threads and posts about folk/blues subjects and non-folk/blues subjests] that had more Black posters, some of those posters would have commented about a comment which shared information about the African American history and origin of barbershop quartet music 2. If there were more discussion of subjects about or related to Black origins of barbershop music and other Black musical genres than maybe there would be more Black posters and posters who were people of color on Mudcat. I don't know if either of these assumptions are true. I know that particularly the last assumption isn't the whole story. But my last comment was decidedly off topic. I'm sorry for including in this thread. |
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Subject: RE: What's so wrong about Barbershop? From: Marje Date: 22 Jul 07 - 01:06 PM I did read your first post, Aziz, and found it both interesting and credible, but I had nothing much to say about it because I know comparatively little about the origins of barbershop. Much of American popular music has origins and links with music of black origin, and although what you said surprised me at first, it made perfect sense when I thought about it. So there you are - you've made one person stop and think a bit more. So there's no need to sulk or get paranoid. How do you know that blacks are under-represented here? I have no idea what colour most of the posters in Mudcat are - the main issue for me is working out which side of the Atlantic they're from, which often has a bearing on the discussions here. I think most members will, like me, have found your post interesting but only of slight relevance to the original question of why "folkies" tend to ignore barbershop, and that's the most likely explanation for the lack of follow-up. Marje |
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Subject: RE: What's so wrong about Barbershop? From: Uncle Boko Date: 22 Jul 07 - 01:13 PM "So, indeed, is opera" - rubbish, I have never heard so much out of tune garbage, emperor's new clother reigns supreme!!! |
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Subject: RE: What's so wrong about Barbershop? From: Bill D Date: 22 Jul 07 - 01:37 PM It's ok, in its place, but it flatly AIN'T folk! It has its own 'tradition', but not folk tradition. You can't jam everything under one roof. Barbershop, like Bluegrass, seems to assume almost everything can be adapted to their style... "Sweet Adeline" is fine, but this morning I heard a very Barbershop version of "Time Has Made a Change in Me"...the tune was sorta recognizable, but the harmonies altered things a lot!...and the 'feel' of the song was sacrificed for sound and rhythm. |
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Subject: RE: What's so wrong about Barbershop? From: GUEST,meself Date: 22 Jul 07 - 03:02 PM "the 'feel' of the song was sacrificed for sound and rhythm" - ? I would have thought the 'feel' of the song was inseparable from 'sound and rhythm' ... |
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Subject: RE: What's so wrong about Barbershop? From: Bill D Date: 22 Jul 07 - 03:21 PM not necessarily...if the sound & rhythm doesn't fit the message in the lyrics, you can lose the point. Try singing "Bonnie Susie Cleland" to a bouncy, cheerful little rhythm...(which I have also heard..) |
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Subject: RE: What's so wrong about Barbershop? From: Big Mick Date: 22 Jul 07 - 03:32 PM I'm just popping in for a minute, but this one touches a nerve. There are several versions of "Hard Times Come again No More" out there where folks do it with a bouncy beat, and one guy was using a drum machine and chorus. He is a pretty good performer, and was at a major venue. I guess my face betrayed me because he asked me what I was thinking. I couldn't help myself, so I asked him if he actually listened to the words he was singing, or if he just liked the tune. He chuckled (thanks be) and said that he has heard it before from good singers. But he just felt it fit. Go figure. I really appreciate the technique involved, and I believe all singers can benefit from this type of training. Don't care much for the showbiz presentation, but in singarounds, these folks really add a lot to the fullness of any sound. Mick |
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Subject: RE: What's so wrong about Barbershop? From: Dazbo Date: 22 Jul 07 - 04:21 PM I posed a similar question a few years ago. Personally, I can't stand babershop and couldn't understand why as most unaccompanied singing I usually really enjoy. Here's the thread |
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Subject: RE: What's so wrong about Barbershop? From: Ebbie Date: 22 Jul 07 - 04:25 PM Is Barbershop the US version of Morris Dancing? *g* There are times when I enjoy a few songs done in barbershop style but never for very long. I like the harmonies and I like old songs - a lot of them - but I'm with those who are under the impression that the lyrics i Barbershop matter not a whit. And lyrics and their message come first, to my mind. It is the same objection I have to our local Pride Chorus. They are very good and their harmonies are often spine- tingling but why can't they come up with meatier themes? And more demanding arrangements? I went to a Folk Song ensemble a few weeks ago- it was a group of about 25 (about the same size as our Pride Chorus) - but the songs were engaging and fresh. I mentioned that to a member of the Pride and she said that they have a problem with scheduling enough rehearsal time. But I'll bet if they came up with good songs they'd show up for rehearsal. |
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Subject: RE: What's so wrong about Barbershop? From: Fred Maslan Date: 22 Jul 07 - 05:26 PM I enjoy listening to Barbershop, but I guess I'm a wild harmonizer, never do it the same way twice. |
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Subject: RE: What's so wrong about Barbershop? From: pattyClink Date: 22 Jul 07 - 05:37 PM Great insights in this thread. I just wrapped up several years of barbershopping, gonna take a break. They wear costumes and do all the showmanship because of the stupid competition criteria. There are some ancient crones judging these contests who think the more you look like Doris Day circa 1956 in a sequin factory, the better. I have seen some original awesome 'theme' costumes that have been wonderful to see, but most of it is just a lot of overdressing. The more out of style this becomes, the more they cling to it because many of them dearly love to 'dress up'. They do sing a lot of insincere songs with thoughtless lyrics. Unfortunately the main mine of singable material is still Tin Pan Alley and that's how they wrote most of them. They desperately need new arrangers to do songs post-Pat Boone, so if anybody arrangingly inclined wants a new subinterest in music, go for it, you can make some money doing arrangements. Like everybody else, I love the harmony and have learned how to be a better all around singer, solo or ensemble. But the Stepford aspects were really gettin' me down. |
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Subject: RE: What's so wrong about Barbershop? From: Greg B Date: 22 Jul 07 - 05:42 PM One of my colleagues young (13 years) son is a multi-faced musician who, among his other interests, loves singing barbershop with the local club. He drew his dad in as well. It seems to build character and musicianship. Barbershop is certainly distinctly American, and distinct from 'four square' British harmony. As such, it incorporates what African Americans brought to the American music hall. However, the citations brought out earlier strike me as one of those attempts to credit the entire Industrial Revolution to the inventor of the cotton gin. Thirds and major and minor sevenths and diminished ninths did actually exist in music theory even prior to the triangle trade. Barbershop is a melding of traditions, all of which converged in the burgeoning US and peaked in the 'gay 90s'. No one tradition can claim it. But it's great good fun for those who do it--- sort of like singing shanties has become a century later. |
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Subject: RE: What's so wrong about Barbershop? From: Azizi Date: 22 Jul 07 - 06:02 PM "Barbershop is a melding of traditions, all of which converged in the burgeoning US and peaked in the 'gay 90s'. No one tradition can claim it."-Greg B I agree. That melding of traditions happened with R&B music too. ** Btw, Greg, I believe that involvement in most types of musical groups can build good character and improve musicianship. And I like your use of "Stepford aspects" -though I don't like the concept of the lock step Stepford wives {or stepford anything}. |
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Subject: RE: What's so wrong about Barbershop? From: Azizi Date: 22 Jul 07 - 06:15 PM Opps, sorry for that wrong attribution. pattyClink, I like you use of Stepford aspects. |
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Subject: RE: What's so wrong about Barbershop? From: Azizi Date: 22 Jul 07 - 06:18 PM Oops again. I wrote "you use of Stepford aspects" and meant "your" use but I also meant that I like the phrase and not that you actual use stepford aspects... |
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Subject: RE: What's so wrong about Barbershop? From: Mike Miller Date: 22 Jul 07 - 06:21 PM Sure, Barbershop is arranged and carefully presented. So, were the Weavers, the Copper Family,The Dubliners and every other successful singing group. One could make a good case for excluding arranged music from "folk" but we seem to be a lot more tolerant toward some groups and styles. Certainly, we know who wrote most of the Barbershop classics. We, also, know who wrote "Silent Night", "Oh, Susanna" and "This Land is Your Land". Barbershop harmony was the DooWop of one hundred years ago. It may be formalised, today, but its roots are as humble as Old Timey. I am glad we are having this discussion. I didn't start this thread to increase the audience for Barbershop. I am suggesting that more of us should be singing in Barbershop choruses because it's fun. I have been a soloist all my professional life and I wanted to learn how to. better, blend with other voices. Boy, what I learned. I learned about breathing, about extending vocal range, about the different voices I had. Before each rehearsal, the chorus stands on the risers and does vocal excercises, conducted by real vocal coaches. I tell you, I had been singing for my supper for thirty years before I joined The Mainliners. I am a much better singer, today, because of what I was taught. (By the way, the Sweet Adelines are just as good, or better) Mike |
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Subject: RE: What's so wrong about Barbershop? From: Dave the Gnome Date: 22 Jul 07 - 06:31 PM It's American shite. Nearly as bad as blues and jazz. End of story. :D |
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Subject: RE: What's so wrong about Barbershop? From: Don Firth Date: 22 Jul 07 - 06:35 PM For me, I enjoy a whole variety of music. Opera (sorry, Uncle Boko, but "out of tune?" Gotta be something wrong with your ear. But chaque un à son gout), Broadway show tunes, a lot of pop songs from yesteryear, country, blues, and yes, some barbershop, too. Too great a variety to list. I must admit that I don't enjoy much in the way of rock (but some!), and rap sort of sets my teeth on edge. There's darned little classical music that I don't like. But as for what I perform myself, I stick pretty close to traditional songs and ballads, and a few other selected songs. I also play (play at) classical guitar, with an occasional whack at flamenco. Why not barbershop? Well, doing the sort of stuff I like to do, I don't have to look up three other guys to do it. Don Firth |
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Subject: RE: What's so wrong about Barbershop? From: Cluin Date: 22 Jul 07 - 08:23 PM Barbershop is great! For about three songs or so. |
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Subject: RE: What's so wrong about Barbershop? From: chazkratz Date: 22 Jul 07 - 08:58 PM I stopped going to barber shops because nobody ever sang in any one I ever patronized. Or maybe it was because it cost too much... I could never handle the tight harmonies of the music; I have enough trouble with folk harmonies--I can find the tenor harmonies, which is too bad--as I'm a baritone. Charles |
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Subject: RE: What's so wrong about Barbershop? From: katlaughing Date: 23 Jul 07 - 12:49 AM My last statement of my second comment reflected my opinion regarding why this forum has so few Black people or other people of color. That is your biggest assumption. |
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Subject: RE: What's so wrong about Barbershop? From: EuGene Date: 23 Jul 07 - 12:50 AM Well, I don't know very much about barbershop history and tradition, but I have enjoyed listening to them sing and harmonize together. Most of them do go for the cookie cutter dress, but I guess that's required for competition. One of the best barbershop quartets I ever heard was singing around in the Washington DC/Montgomery County, MD area in the 1960's, and they generally wore matching slacks and white shirt (and occasionally blue jeans and white shirt) They also sang a duke's mixture of stuff, all harmonized in the barbershop style . . . "Down By The Riverside", "Wedding Bells Breaking Up That Old Gang of Mine", "I Want a Girl . . .", "This Old House", "Billy Boy", "Sidewalks of New York", "While Strolling in the Park", "My Merry Oldsmobile", "Side by Side", "Ivy Will Cling", etc. I guess some of that stuff is Barbershop, some is Tin Pan Alley, and the rest is whatever. Anyhoo, they harmonized it all as well as anyone, and their slacks/blue jeans didn't throw 'em off key one whit! Golly, maybe a person can ride a horse without a proper habit or Stetson hat . . . well, that might be going a bit too far from the accepted norm, and the horse will likely either balk or buck! Eu |
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Subject: RE: What's so wrong about Barbershop? From: Jim Lad Date: 23 Jul 07 - 02:45 AM I like Barbershop. How could I not? I enjoy listening to people sing and the words are much more important to me than musical arrangements. The Peach Chords (A Cape Breton group) joined me on stage a few times in Sydney for a couple of impromptu numbers and we all had a great time. They even invited me to sit in on their practices. Sadly, I had to decline. Having said that; It's not my bag & I can't make a living in a group but if I walked into a venue and a Barber Shop Quartet was singing, I'd stay. Blues?.... Not so much. "My last statement of my second comment reflected my opinion regarding why this forum has so few Black people or other people of color."... You know... I have absolutely no idea who is Black, White, Aboriginal, Wheelchair Bound, Cancer Stricken, Blind, Deaf, Chinese, Caring for the sick and dying, Sick and dying themselves, Married, Single, Divorced, Old, Young, Rich, Poor, Gay, Straight or in many cases, who is Male or Female.(I don't even know if it's politically correct to use half of those words.) Except for you, Azizi because every time you come on, you tell me. So here's a newsflash. We are all people of colour. Every single one of us and it may even surprise you to find that one way or another, some of us are even more coloured than you are. We just don't feel the need to complain about it. |
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Subject: RE: What's so wrong about Barbershop? From: The Fooles Troupe Date: 23 Jul 07 - 02:51 AM Thanks Jim Lad - I'm glad I didn't open my mouth on THIS thread... |
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Subject: RE: What's so wrong about Barbershop? From: Jim Lad Date: 23 Jul 07 - 03:13 AM From: Mike Miller - PM Date: 22 Jul 07 - 06:21 PM Sure, Barbershop is arranged and carefully presented. So, were the Weavers, the Copper Family,The Dubliners and every other successful singing group. One could make a good case for excluding arranged music from "folk" but we seem to be a lot more tolerant toward some groups and styles. Certainly, we know who wrote most of the Barbershop classics. We, also, know who wrote "Silent Night", "Oh, Susanna" and "This Land is Your Land". Barbershop harmony was the DooWop of one hundred years ago. It may be formalised, today, but its roots are as humble as Old Timey. I am glad we are having this discussion. I didn't start this thread to increase the audience for Barbershop. I am suggesting that more of us should be singing in Barbershop choruses because it's fun. I have been a soloist all my professional life and I wanted to learn how to. better, blend with other voices. Boy, what I learned. I learned about breathing, about extending vocal range, about the different voices I had. Before each rehearsal, the chorus stands on the risers and does vocal excercises, conducted by real vocal coaches. I tell you, I had been singing for my supper for thirty years before I joined The Mainliners. I am a much better singer, today, because of what I was taught. (By the way, the Sweet Adelines are just as good, or better) Mike |
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Subject: RE: What's so wrong about Barbershop? From: stallion Date: 23 Jul 07 - 03:50 AM I like most music in small doses, what me and t'other two sing is what we do of an evening around the kitchen table with a bottle of wine (or two), some stilton and biscuits, it's loose, drifts in and out of three parts and unison, we don't put a label on it and shrug our shoulders when we are asked how we arrive at our arrangements (sometimes it is a real challenge remembering what made a particular chime) I enjoy elaborate music like barbers shop but it aint what I would call folk music but then I don't agree with the strand that it has to be planted in the eons of time. It is curios that the Black/ White thing should come up, it simply never entered my head, and still doesn't. I once tried to describe someone to a friend and after some long time he said, "oh you mean the Black guy", next time I saw him I looked and he was Black it hadn't registered with me and still doesn't, I don't seem to register race, shouldn't we all be like that? |
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Subject: RE: What's so wrong about Barbershop? From: Peace Date: 23 Jul 07 - 03:56 AM "So here's a newsflash. We are all people of colour." White people love to say shit like that. |
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Subject: RE: What's so wrong about Barbershop? From: Liz the Squeak Date: 23 Jul 07 - 04:24 AM My formal chorus has (in the past, before my time) sung Barbershop stuff - we still have the arrangements in the archive to prove it... it made a change from Mozart's Requiem and the Messiah oratorio. It's seen as a mostly male domain though, and that's a problem when you're a girl. I love singing in formal harmony styles to make a big noise, but I also love making my own harmonies and descants in quieter situations. I guess all the Barbershop I've been exposed to has been too AR for my liking - very tight and restricted. As a style, I like to listen to about 10-15 minutes of it, then I get bored. But I'm like that will most music. Look at my CD player or MP3 and you'll find several different styles of music (classical to heavy metal to folk ballads...) and they're all on shuffle. LTS |
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Subject: RE: What's so wrong about Barbershop? From: John MacKenzie Date: 23 Jul 07 - 04:46 AM Ones colour or sexual inclinations are of no importance regarding your contributions to a web site like this, and I don't think it is necessary to disclose either to be taken seriously. Giok |
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Subject: RE: What's so wrong about Barbershop? From: Dave Hanson Date: 23 Jul 07 - 05:10 AM Mike Miller couldn't be more wrong about the Copper Family and The Dubliners, though he may be right about The Weavers. The Copper Family have an unbroken tradition of singing together that goes back more than a hundred years, this is why it sounds so good, and if you'd care to research The Dubliners history you will find out that in their early days they NEVER arranged anything, it was all concieved in the heat of performance, they also rarely went on stage sober. eric |
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Subject: RE: What's so wrong about Barbershop? From: Hovering Bob Date: 23 Jul 07 - 06:01 AM I quite like Barbershop, as an outsider; I've never had the musicality to join in, or the inclination to go to the trouble to of learning to sing harmonies. (Thinks, is this why my 'career' has been so limited?) I liked it enough to want to 'expose' a very English folk audience to the genre by booking 'The Reading Barbershop Quartet' to appear at the Caversham Charity Folk Festival a few (10?) years ago. They went down a bomb at the concert and earned themselves a lot of friends by being seen to be busking with the general crowd milling around in the carpark/craft stall area later on. In general the costumes and exagerated gestures/choreography make me cringe, but I admire the 'tight' presentation when it's there. But then that is a quality that marks 'good' performers in any genre, difficult to define but instantly recognisable when it exists. Examples of this quality in the folk world that spring to mind are William Pint and Felicity Dale and 'Artisan' RIP. All the best BobH |
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Subject: RE: What's so wrong about Barbershop? From: GUEST,Shimrod Date: 23 Jul 07 - 07:07 AM There's nothing "wrong about Barbershop" (sic) - I just don't happen to like it, that's all. If you like it, fine - why do you need other people's approval for that preference? |
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Subject: RE: What's so wrong about Barbershop? From: GUEST,meself Date: 23 Jul 07 - 08:51 AM A member made a statement regarding "people of color" and this forum; shortly after, she said she wasn't sure that the statement she had made was true, and it was certainly off-topic, and she apologized for putting it on this thread. In effect, she withdrew the remark. Sixteen hours later, people are still reacting to that initial remark - why? What more do you want her to do? |
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Subject: RE: What's so wrong about Barbershop? From: Mike Miller Date: 23 Jul 07 - 09:34 AM Taste is taste and needs no excuses. I don't mind that some folks don't like Barbershop. Hell, I don't like opera, fusion jazz, white rock and about 93% of the singer/songwriters that are so popular in this forum. I was just kind of wondering what it was about certain traditional music that made it so icky to the folk world, in general, and to Mudcatters, in particular. My original post listed Barbershop, polka bands and tenor banjo players. I could, easily, have included accordian players and singing cowboys. It can't be because of commercialism. Bluegrass is celebrated, here, as is Dylan. I suspect a kind of generational bias. If our parents or, worse, our grandparents liked it, it's got to suck. If I like it, what does that make me? Old! Just a guess. Mike |
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Subject: RE: What's so wrong about Barbershop? From: Marje Date: 23 Jul 07 - 10:36 AM In my case, it's not rebelling against my parents' views but reflecting them: I remember my Dad once saying that for him, listening to barbershop was like watching a dog attacking a rabbit - he found himself intrigued and fascinated but also repelled by it. Maybe that was a bit harsh, but I know what he meant. For the record, my Dad's taste in music were very varied - he liked Bach, Handel, the Clancy Brothers, Paul Robeson, and Kathleen Ferrier, among others, but couldn't respond to barbershop. Or, for that matter, to Bob Dylan, the only singer whose music was banned from my parents' living room (so I got to take the record player up to my room to play Dylan LPs). Marje |
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Subject: RE: What's so wrong about Barbershop? From: SINSULL Date: 23 Jul 07 - 11:53 AM I enjoy Barbershop Quartets in moderation. This discussion brought to mind the 60s sitcom "Car 54, Where are You?" In one episode, Jan Murray (a US comedian)judges a Barbershop Quartet contest for the NYC Police Department. The catch? Every group, and there appeared to be hundreds, sang "By The Light Of The Silvery Moon". And every group started with "Boom Boom Boom Boom...By the light..." In the end he is carried away screaming in agony. That seems to be the effect too much Barbershop has on most people. But the same is true of Sea Shanties and Parodies. |
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Subject: RE: What's so wrong about Barbershop? From: Jim Lad Date: 23 Jul 07 - 11:59 AM ... and Yodelling. There was a case, a few years back, when a pleasure cruise was completely overrun by some Yodellers' Convention. All day long they were breaking into small groups and bursting into "Song" in the most inappropriate places. Several passengers complained and when they returned home, were granted a free trip by the cruise line. Now, where's me bodhran? |
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Subject: RE: What's so wrong about Barbershop? From: SINSULL Date: 23 Jul 07 - 12:01 PM Some reference material re: Black Origins of Barbershop: Abbott, Lynn. Play That Barber Shop Chord: A Case for the African American Origin of Barbershop Harmony. American Music 10 (1992) 289-325. Henry, James Earl. The Origins of Barbershop Harmony: A Study of Barbershop's Links to Other African American Musics as Evidenced through Recordings and Arrangements of Early Black and White Quartets. Ph. D diss., Washington University, 2000 White Barbershop - the men in straw hats and striped shirts arose in the 40s when Barbershop became popular again. I always assumed that the close harmony rock of the 50s had it's origins in Barbershop as well as Black religious music. Nothing to back it up... |
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Subject: RE: What's so wrong about Barbershop? From: Maryrrf Date: 23 Jul 07 - 12:17 PM Nothing is 'wrong' with Barbershop music - It is just a matter of personal taste. I can appreciate the hours of practice required to get the harmonies perfect, and the thought and skill that goes into the arranging and choreographing, but I can only enjoy it in limited quantities. I tend to listen soloists more so than harmony groups. I do occasionally attend performances of the local Sweet Adelines because I have a friend who likes to go - and it always strikes me that those participating seem to enjoy it very much, and many audience members are obviously very much into that style of music. As to whether or not it belongs under the umbrella of folk music, well that brings us back to "What is Folk Music" and I don't want to go there! |
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Subject: RE: What's so wrong about Barbershop? From: Mike Miller Date: 23 Jul 07 - 03:55 PM I missed that episode of "Car 54, Where Are You?". The only thing cooler than good Barbershop is bad Barbershop. Still, repitition can be its own reward. There used to be a parade, in Philadelphia, where all the floats and brigades marched along Chestnut Street. The only song that was permitted was "Louie, Louie". Tedious, perhaps, but funny. Anyway, I am glad to hear from so many Barbershoppers and Sweet Adelines. Now, if we can get the polka people orginised..... Mike |
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Subject: RE: What's so wrong about Barbershop? From: EuGene Date: 23 Jul 07 - 04:20 PM Mike: If they still have the "Doo Dah Parade" out there in California, they had a precision Attache Case Drill Team, in full Brooks Brothers Suits, that that did things like a Full Double-Twirl Order Manual Attache Arms . . . now, if you could get them to sing "Five Foot Two, Eyes of Blue" while they did their thing . . . WOW! Eu |
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Subject: RE: What's so wrong about Barbershop? From: GUEST,Frank Lee Date: 23 Jul 07 - 07:43 PM I sing barbershop, I never cared for barbershop, but I sing barbershop, and that's my weakness now. Tried it once for a birthday party stunt - most fun group thing I've ever done, and certainly the most challenging! I suspect there'd be a lot more of it if more high tenors existed, but we were very fortunate in having one in our morris team, as well as the other essential, a first class singing teacher. Went across to Newcastle once to learn from the 40 strong Newcastle society - they hadn't a high tenor among them and made do with 3-part harmony! Yes, it's a matter of taste, and yes it's all the awful things said thus far - but it's a great laugh, and I never listen to the words of songs anyway, being a strictly tunes person. The harmonies, with the melody line second from top, are just great. |
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Subject: RE: What's so wrong about Barbershop? From: Mike Miller Date: 23 Jul 07 - 11:44 PM I am glad to hear that Frank is a convert. The first time I heard myself on the risers, I was thrilled that I could be a part of something so beautiful and grand. EuGene, I have attended two Doo Dah parades and they were hilarious. Friends in Pasadina invited me to, what they called,"the damnedest thing you will ever see" and they weren't kidding. I love traditional ritual. Have you had a chance to catch the Mummers Day parade on Broad Street in Philadelphia? Mike |
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Subject: RE: What's so wrong about Barbershop? From: EuGene Date: 24 Jul 07 - 12:01 AM Gosh, Mike, I never was in Philadelphia when they held the Mummers Day parade, but I recall seeing some of it on TV a few years ago. Yeah, it was really crazy. I saw a couple of Doo Dah parades live many years ago and they were a blast, spoofing everything anyone ever saw in a parade anywhere. It seems like it came about as a parody of the Rose Bowl parade. My favorite was the Attache Case Drill Team . . . they did everything with those attaches that a "real" drill team did with their rifles, including a full manual of arms, tosses, exchanges, and a Queen Anne Salute. Those guys sure must have practiced a bunch. Meanwhile, back in the Folk Song forum . . . Eu |
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Subject: RE: What's so wrong about Barbershop? From: Mike Miller Date: 24 Jul 07 - 08:52 AM The Doo Dah parade (from the song, "Zippidy Doo Dah" or, maybe, from the song, "Camptown Races") is held on the exact route as the Tournament of Roses parade. The Mummers Day parade is one of the oldest, survivng rituals, dating back to ancient Rome. The brigades of string bands started in England and we added the horns, ourselves. Banjo enthusiats come from miles away to experience this all day, mobile extraviganza. Although the costumes used to mimic the 18th century minstral shows, blackface was forbidden years ago and women have been participating for decades. Recent parades have been marred by the rowdy behavior of a few oafs who are, still, celebrating New Year's Eve but it remains an event that all folkies should see. Paul Cadwell, the great classical banjoist who influenced every important 5 string player, from Roger Sprung to Eric Weissberg, came to Philly every New Year's Day to watch the bands go by. Mike |
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Subject: RE: What's so wrong about Barbershop? From: M.Ted Date: 24 Jul 07 - 11:23 AM While there may have been Barbershop singing in African-American communities in the early twentieth century, it is a mistake to believe that the four part singing originated there. Male quartets were very popular entertainment in the late nineteenth and early twentieth century, and of harmonies and voicings that barbershop music uses, as well as the characteristic chords changes, are pretty solidly derrived from European classical music. Monteverdi's madgrials, written near the beginning of the 17th century, use a lot of the same vocal "theatrics" that are characteristic of Barbershop. Furthermore, there was a longstanding tradition of informal four part harmony singing that centered mostly in taverns-- Frank Shay's folk song collection, "My Pious Friends and Drunken Companions" commemorate the tradtion, which began to fade with the beginning of the twentieth century and the war, and was dealt a death blow by Prohibition. African-American musicians and entertainers, have a part of mainstream American entertainment for a long time. The Minstrel Shows were originally performed by white entertainers, but by the last part of the nineteenth century, blacks dominated them. I think it's important to remember that most of the black musicians and composers, even in those days, had solid "classical" music training, and they played and wrote the same popular music that everyone else did. Ragtime, jazz, blues, all developed after that time, from those roots-- |
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Subject: RE: What's so wrong about Barbershop? From: Mike Miller Date: 24 Jul 07 - 02:14 PM M.Ted is quite correct about the formal training enjoyed by the early black composers. While the intent of their training was, no doubt, for sacred music, we owe, virtually, all American popular music to their creativity and their ability to blend Eurocentric and Afrocentric musical traditions. This point brings us back to the original question, why are some traditions seem as "folkier" than others. If Elizabeth Cotton is folk, why aren't Louis Armstrong or Jellyroll Morton? (Of course, we know why. It's that guitar thing. If Mississippi John played piano, he would be a jazz icon) Mike |
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Subject: RE: What's so wrong about Barbershop? From: M.Ted Date: 24 Jul 07 - 03:03 PM I count jazz as folk music-at least the older kinds of jazz--and I count most American folk music as forms of jazz--as for the guitar, the folk ways of playing it really come out of the old banjo styles--listen to Vess Ossman's banjo recordings from around the turn of the 19th, and compare to your favorite finger picker, or Uncle Dave Macon, for that matter. |
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Subject: RE: What's so wrong about Barbershop? From: Dave Hanson Date: 25 Jul 07 - 05:41 AM Mike Miller you really must stop generalising about folk music, when the great English folksong collecters like Cecil Sharp were collecting, folksongs were ALWAYS sung with a piano accompaniment, the guitar is a fairly modern fashion in folksong. eric |
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Subject: RE: What's so wrong about Barbershop? From: M.Ted Date: 25 Jul 07 - 11:09 AM Your piano comment is nearly as amusing as Mike's guitar comment--to bring it full circle to Mike's original post concerning the banjo--here is a quote, lifted from "Cecil Sharp in America" ,--Olive Dame Campbell, you may or may not remember, is the one whose collection inspired Sharp to collect in the US-- In December, 1907, the Campbells visited Hindman Settlement School in Kentucky and it was there that Olive Dame Campbell heard a student, Ada Smith, sing a version of the ballad Barbara Allen. "Shall I ever forget it. The blazing fire, the young girl on her low stool before it, the soft strange strumming of the banjo - different from anything I had heard before - and then the song. I had been used to singing Barbara Allen as a child, but how far from that gentle tune was this - so strange, so remote, so thrilling. I was lost almost from the first note, and the pleasant room faded from sight; the singer only a voice. I saw again the long road over which we had come, the dark hills, the rocky streams bordered by tall hemlocks and hollies, the lonely cabins distinguishable at night only by the firelight flaring from their chimneys. Then these, too, faded, and I seemed to be borne along into a still more dim and distant past, of which I myself was a part." |
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Subject: RE: What's so wrong about Barbershop? From: GUEST,meself Date: 25 Jul 07 - 11:29 AM What a lovely, evocative piece of writing ... |
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Subject: RE: What's so wrong about Barbershop? From: M.Ted Date: 25 Jul 07 - 11:49 AM I think that all of us "folkies" are looking for that moment, meself-- |
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Subject: RE: What's so wrong about Barbershop? From: Don Firth Date: 25 Jul 07 - 02:36 PM ". . . the guitar is a fairly modern fashion in folksong." Well . . . maybe. Some of the people that Olive Dame Campbell, Cecil Sharp, and others collected from did accompany themselves on some sort of musical instrument, usually something fairly small and portable. The banjo was fairly common, and some folks made their own instruments. For example, the Appalachian dulcimer. And, if I remember correctly, singer and song collector Frank Warner played a banjo he made himself. And there were a fair number of fiddles around, some store-bought, some home-made. The "parlor guitar" was fairly common in the 1800s and into the early 1900s. Most "well-appointed" houses had a piano in the parlor, but if they couldn't afford a piano (or sometimes even if they could) there would be a guitar there. Hence, "parlor" guitar. And the folks in the Southern Appalachians and in the Ozarks and in other presumably isolated areas were not really that isolated. A common item in what might be a meager library (a few school books, a Bible, and a hymnal) would be the latest Montgomery-Ward and/or Sears Roebuck mail-order catalog. You could order things through these catalogs that you couldn't get locally. And they listed a few modestly priced guitars ($2.50 to maybe $15.00) that were reasonably playable. A singer singing to the accompaniment of a small, portable instrument such as a guitar is a tradition that goes back to the wandering minstrels and troubadours singing to the accompaniment of a lute or similar instrument. Homer's Iliad could be read (by those who could read), but is said to have been chanted to the accompaniment of a lyre or harp. By the way, large-bodied guitars like Martin Dreadnaughts and Gibson Jumbos are fairly recent. Until these came along, most guitars were somewhat smaller. Some modern classic guitarists have noted that the "heroic stretches" that one sometimes finds in guitar music by composers such as Fernando Sor are not because Sor had huge hands with long fingers, but because the guitar he was playing was smaller, with a somewhat shorter scale-length than modern classic guitars. Don Firth |
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Subject: RE: What's so wrong about Barbershop? From: dick greenhaus Date: 25 Jul 07 - 02:48 PM Barbershop harmony suffers from the same thing that limits bluegrass and a lot of Irish sessiun music--it's all too often a triumph of technique over musicality. And while it--like the other two genres--is undoubtedly fun to participate in, it's not always as much fun for listeners. |
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Subject: RE: What's so wrong about Barbershop? From: Mike Miller Date: 25 Jul 07 - 04:23 PM I would never disagree with so eminent a scholar as Dick Greenhaus, but his fun for the doer but not for the listener argument is, both, cogent and inaccurate. It is, surely, fun to do, as all the present and former Barbershoppers have attested. It is, also, a popular genre as performance art. I have attended more than a few Mainliners concerts, and there wasn't an empty seat in the house. They perform at a number of summertime venues and they are the most attended shows of the series. I will, personally, escort Dick and Susan to a show so he can count the house for himself. Technique is a big part of a SPBQHSA performance and, to this end, they rehearse a lot. So does every other singing group, or they should. Performance is not the same as singin' and strummin' on one's front porch. It is not a jam session in festival parking lot. As I, previously, stated, One could make a decent argument that folk music cannot cooincide with professional performance. But some traditional music has always been performed and was so intended. Child ballads were the creation of long gone singer/songwriters who made their living singing them. My original post was questioning why some traditions are more folkie than others on Mudcat. It doesn't take a genius to list the OK and the Ignored. On the A List, is Ballads, Blues, Bluegrass, a biss'l Klezmer, Irish and every singer/songwriter with a CD. On the D List, we find Jazz, Polkas, Barbershop, Cowboy Swing, Italian and every singer/songwriter who is successful (except Dylan, maybe). Did I miss anyone? Mike |
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Subject: RE: What's so wrong about Barbershop? From: M.Ted Date: 25 Jul 07 - 04:25 PM Well, since you started it, Dick, I'll bury the hatchet deeper;-) All three genres are restricted on a fairly small number of musical conventions, which makes them easily accessible to both listeners and new players, but limits the range of expression, and offers little opportunity for creativity--long term players don't have much to do but to refine their skills-- |
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Subject: RE: What's so wrong about Barbershop? From: M.Ted Date: 25 Jul 07 - 04:27 PM The above comments apply to Dixieland, too-- |
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Subject: RE: What's so wrong about Barbershop? From: dick greenhaus Date: 25 Jul 07 - 04:57 PM They also apply to baroque music, while we're at it. And I'm not labeling all barbershop as masturbatory music--it's just that it's one of the genres that seems to encourage it. The question is "What's so wrong about Barbershop?"...I attempted to suggest a possible answer. What's wrong with chili peppers is that they can burn your tongue--that doesn't mean that I'm opposed to chili peppers. And Mike--what do you mean "eminent a scholar "? I plead not guilty to both counts. |
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Subject: RE: What's so wrong about Barbershop? From: Mike Miller Date: 25 Jul 07 - 08:09 PM Right, M.Ted. Like Old Timey is rife with creative interpretation. Let's play "Soldier's Joy" a lot and let's play it the same way, over and over. Ooh, let's do it, again. (zzzzzzzzz......). One of the reasons I like bluegrass, blues, and swing is the flexability of the arrangements and the freedom of lead. Also, I apologise to Dick Greenhaus for suggesting he is a scholar. He has spent a lifetime nurturing and protecting his innocence and natural ignorance. Dick is one of my oldest friends, which will give you an idea what a swell life I lead. Mike |
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Subject: RE: What's so wrong about Barbershop? From: GUEST,meself Date: 25 Jul 07 - 09:11 PM "And I'm not labeling all barbershop as masturbatory music--it's just that it's one of the genres that seems to encourage it." Now that's funny - the masturbatory urge is one I never felt while listening to barbershop. Maybe I'm missing something ... |
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Subject: RE: What's so wrong about Barbershop? From: Mike Miller Date: 25 Jul 07 - 09:18 PM Dear Guest meself, You've just got to get ahold of yourself. |
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Subject: RE: What's so wrong about Barbershop? From: M.Ted Date: 26 Jul 07 - 12:30 AM There are people who dig long, narrow, if not particularly deep, trenches with blues and bluegrass music as well. Swing is a lot broader field of endeavor,but I've been told that in one of the circles of Hell, you're stuck in traffic, in an overheated 1965 Chrysler Newport, while the radio plays "The Swingin' Hits of Les and Larry Elgart "--forever!!! |
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Subject: RE: What's so wrong about Barbershop? From: PoppaGator Date: 26 Jul 07 - 04:52 PM Azizi was absolutely correct in observing that there are very few "people of color" participating at Mudcat these days ~ certainly, very few African-Americans. There is certainly much less discussion of the blues and of other African-influenced American forms than there was only a few years ago. I think that's undeniable and, though not necessarily a bad thing, it can't be dismissed with the dumb comment that "we're all of color" (e.g., ranging from pasty white though pale pink to maybe a sort of beige-ish tan, relieved by the occasional sprinkle of freckles). Where she was out of line, in my judgement, was in objecting to the absence of significant references to Negritude in this discussion of Barbershop singing. Is there any more lily-white musical endeavor extant in contemporary culture? I found the message that revealed the possibility of any African-American influence upon the early roots of Barbershop to be very interesting food for thought. It was interesting and revelatory precisely because current-day Barbershop culture is white as Wonder bread. If anyone had been able to expand on this observation (rather than simply to complain that it wasn't enough), it would have been great ~ but apparently there just isn't much more that can be said on the topic. The ability to sing in harmony is not exclusive to any ethnic group. Each of our many diverse clans includes musical geniuses as well as a few tone-deaf members. Styles may differ of course ~ harmony singing that developed among Caucasian communities can be expected to sound different from the vocal mixes produced by groups of African descent. But clearly, members of any nationality, or "race," or whatever, are capable of developing their own harmony-singing traditions. In the case of the barbershop tradition, it may or may not be true that the earliest examples of that defining close-harmony style may have developed among African-Americans. However, it's at least as likely that it developed as part of the minstrel-show scene which consisted of white folks trying to emulate and/or parody black music, with varying levels of success. American music, which has pretty much become "world" music by now, can generally be described as a marriage of African and European traditions. That's what makes it so great! Many traditions or "subgenres" ~ blues, jazz, etc. ~ may justly be regrarded as primarily African, wherein most of the important artists may indeed be of Arican descent. But it stands to reason that others, while incorporating important African elements, are predominantly European in style and approach, and attract performers from primarily European/Caucasian backgrounds. I would think that Barbershop clearly fits the latter category. |
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Subject: RE: What's so wrong about Barbershop? From: PoppaGator Date: 26 Jul 07 - 04:56 PM From Wikipedia, quoting some Barbershop organization's handout: Barbershop music features songs with understandable lyrics and easily singable melodies, whose tones clearly define a tonal center and imply major and minor chords and barbershop (dominant and secondary dominant) seventh chords that resolve primarily around the circle of fifths, while making frequent use of other resolutions. Barbershop music also features a balanced and symmetrical form, and a standard meter. The basic song and its harmonization are embellished by the arranger to provide appropriate support of the song's theme and to close the song effectively. Barbershop singers adjust pitches to achieve perfectly tuned chords in just intonation while remaining true to the established tonal center. Artistic singing in the barbershop style exhibits a fullness or expansion of sound, precise intonation, a high degree of vocal skill, and a high level of unity and consistency within the ensemble. Ideally, these elements are natural, unmanufactured, and free from apparent effort. The presentation of barbershop music uses appropriate musical and visual methods to convey the theme of the song and provide the audience with an emotionally satisfying and entertaining experience. The musical and visual delivery is from the heart, believable, and sensitive to the song and its arrangement throughout. The most stylistic presentation artistically melds together the musical and visual aspects to create and sustain the illusions suggested by the music. |
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Subject: RE: What's so wrong about Barbershop? From: Giant Folk Eyeball (inactive) Date: 27 Jul 07 - 04:19 AM I don't think there's anything wrong with barbershop. I had a lovely short back and sides last time I went... Seriously, there's nothing wrong with it as long as I'm not in the same room. It really, really sets my teeth on edge. And I've absolutely no idea why, although the cheesiness may have something to do with it. Still, as long as everyone's happy and no-one's getting hurt... Nigel |
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Subject: RE: What's so wrong about Barbershop? From: Mike Miller Date: 27 Jul 07 - 09:21 AM And, may I ask, when did White music being influenced by Black music start being reprehensable? If Barbershop was, in fact, a White reaction to Black close harmony, we are the richer for it. Afrocentric musical influence has reshaped the face of American music since the mid 19th century. And, when it comes to integration, I know a lot more Black Barbershoppers than I do Black bluegrassers. Come to think of it, the Black contingent among singer/songwriters is kind of srarce, too. The last big folk stars, of color, were Harry Belafonte and Josh White. The fact is that folk scene has never been popular in the Black community (Check the audience at a Doc Watson concert). So, love Barbershop or hate it, but don't go on a racism rant. Barbershop choruses are unrestricted and more integrated than you think. Mike |
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Subject: RE: What's so wrong about Barbershop? From: Giant Folk Eyeball (inactive) Date: 27 Jul 07 - 11:35 AM In anycase, following on from Mike Miller's post above, is there some sort of rule that says music is to be dismissed unless it's actively enjoyed at all times by a wide range of people of a variety of races and ethnicities? Traditional English folk doesn't get much of an audience mix at gigs, but there again, I wouldn't personally be interested in going to a ragga gig. As long as no-one's oppressing or discriminating against anyone on racial or ethnic grounds, a bit of diversity, variety and difference is no bad thing. Nigel |
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Subject: RE: What's so wrong about Barbershop? From: Artful Codger Date: 27 Jul 07 - 07:34 PM To mind, it is the competitive formalism of SPEBSQSA that limits and deadens the genre. In certain ways, it's laudable: "preservation" is in the name, after all, and judging can be more objective when the criteria are well-known by all in advance. Amateurs are drawn to the cozy and familiar, a definable target to aspire to. But when quartets are allowed to do the equivalent of free-styling, that's when they most sparkle and amaze, and the repertoire diversifies. Several times I've been tempted to try barbershop, electrified by a few groups at a showcase, but the thought of having to perform the core repertoire in the standard style stops me dead. Of course, there's doo-wop, but doo-wop groups also suffer from a narrow style and choice of material. It seems you have to join a large chorus in order to sing a real diversity of music in a group, and then you have all the restrictions and artificiality of that environment, with little choice about the material. Why do we have no a cappella small-group tradition that caters to a real diversity of music: madrigals, glees, art songs, minstrel songs, folk songs, barbershop, ragtime/novelty, swing, doo-wop, jazz, pop...? I can only think of two small groups that have made forays into a fair variety of genres: The Manhattan Transfer and The King's Singers. |
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Subject: RE: What's so wrong about Barbershop? From: Mike Miller Date: 28 Jul 07 - 01:24 AM I reccomend, to the Artful Codger, that he check out the Swingle Singers. I, also, think it bears mentioning that almost all Barbershop groups are amateurs, who treasure their musical traditions. Certainly, there are songs that are sung by every barbershopp quartet and chorus. They are called Barber Polecat songs and every barbershoppers knows them by heart. I was doing a strolling job in a large township park when I encountered a Barbershop quartet, all strangers to me. I waited until they started "My Wild Irish Rose" and I, just, started singing with them. An important fact has been missing from this thread. Barbershoppers are the warmest, most accessable folks as you will find. They sing because they love it. They are proud of the sound they achieve and they take pride in their performances. |
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Subject: RE: What's so wrong about Barbershop? From: M.Ted Date: 01 Aug 07 - 11:13 AM I have a couple more thoughts before letting this thread go(and, yes, I've said it all before, and probably better)-- Harmony singing is a social activity, and, though it is a much loved one, it has gone by the wayside, and been forgotten by most folks. In the once-upon-a-time not-that-long-ago, there were Glee Clubs and Singing Societies and Community Choruses, as well as the barroom crooners of the Pious Friends variety. Families used to sing together, unabashedly and even enthusiastically--now, the only place people sing together is in church-- The temptation is to say that, like many other things, people just don't have time for it, but I think there is more to it--Harmony singing is based on co-operation, and the first thought is, "What can we all do together?" That's an idea that runs counter to the prevailing popular philosophy of "I want total freedom to do what I want, where I want, and how I want." Artful Dodger asks, "Why do we have no a cappella small-group tradition that caters to a real diversity of music: madrigals, glees, art songs, minstrel songs, folk songs, barbershop, ragtime/novelty, swing, doo-wop, jazz, pop.." While it is true that there are some groups that can do that, when you demand that of everyone, you really set a barrier--because if everyone can't do everything, then no one can do anything-- |
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Subject: RE: What's so wrong about Barbershop? From: GUEST Date: 02 Aug 07 - 11:16 AM M.Ted, I couldn't have said it better. |
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Subject: RE: What's so wrong about Barbershop? From: GUEST,Mike Miller Date: 02 Aug 07 - 11:19 AM I forgot to sign that last post. Somehow, I lost my membership when I changed servers. I e-mailed Joe but, so far, I am just a lowly guest. Still, I wanted to thank M.Ted for his succint wrapup. Mike |
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Subject: RE: What's so wrong about Barbershop? From: Joe Offer Date: 17 Jan 08 - 10:00 PM Peace sent me a link to The New Zealand Association of Barbershop Singers, Incorporated (almost as long a name as the SPEBSQSA). Good stuff on the Website. Classic tags are in this PDF file: http://www.nzabs.org.nz/tags/classic%20tags_men.pdf, which I haven't inspected yet. Thanks, Peace. -Joe Offer- |
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Subject: RE: What's so wrong about Barbershop? From: Gulliver Date: 17 Jan 08 - 10:43 PM Talk about discussing something to death. There's nothing wrong with Barbershop. Like every other music form, it's great! There are some great songs out there, going back almost a hundred years. What's the point in getting so het up about it? (or am I missing something here?) |
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Subject: RE: What's so wrong about Barbershop? From: Joe Offer Date: 17 Jan 08 - 10:54 PM Well, it's an old thread, so I'm sure they've all cooled down by now. I really love barbershop harmony, but I have to say that the element of competition can sometimes be a bit too much, and that competition can make the singing just a bit too "slick" for me. But although I have misgivings about competition, I've heard some wicked good singing at barbershop competitions. -Joe- |
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Subject: RE: What's so wrong about Barbershop? From: Peace Date: 17 Jan 08 - 11:11 PM You are most welcome, Joe. |
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Subject: RE: What's so wrong about Barbershop? From: Saro Date: 18 Jan 08 - 04:36 AM Mr Ted writes "Harmony singing is a social activity, and, though it is a much loved one, it has gone by the wayside, and been forgotten by most folks. In the once-upon-a-time not-that-long-ago, there were Glee Clubs and Singing Societies and Community Choruses, as well as the barroom crooners of the Pious Friends variety. Families used to sing together, unabashedly and even enthusiastically--now, the only place people sing together is in church--" But surely not - what about the huge rise in the number of community choirs and singng workshops that seem to be springing up all over the country? I have felt for a long time that some of them are a secular replacement for church. Certainly at our community choir people meet regularly, sing lustily, go away feeling uplifted (well, mostly), dvlop social network etc. We just don't worship anything or anyone in the process. Saro |
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Subject: RE: What's so wrong about Barbershop? From: PoppaGator Date: 18 Jan 08 - 05:08 PM Saro ~ "All over the country"? We mudcatters are all over the world, and for many of us, community group singing unfortunately does seem to be largely a thing of the past. I guess it depends not only upon what country you live in, but what part of the country... |
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Subject: RE: What's so wrong about Barbershop? From: Saro Date: 18 Jan 08 - 06:26 PM Quite right, and apologies PoppaGator! I was referring to the UK, forgetting the "worldwideness" of Mudcat. Saro |
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Subject: RE: What's so wrong about Barbershop? From: Keef Date: 18 Jan 08 - 08:32 PM It's American,(see footnote) It's Cheesy. That's probably why nobody turned up when I put on a show featuring our own quartet and some other stuff. I did barbershop for about a year, learned heaps. Just the same as an Accapella concert, it is a passive thing for the audience, making up improvised harmonies is frowned on. I much prefer the audience in a folk club that will join in and create glorious never to be repeated spontaneous harmony. There is definitely such a thing as too much rehearsal. In Australia It's sooo cool to be antiamerican, even though we wear baseball caps on backwards and call each other dude That's my two bob's worth Want fries with that? Keef |
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Subject: RE: What's so wrong about Barbershop? From: GUEST,Terry Burns Date: 27 Aug 08 - 10:53 AM Barbershop singing should be renamed harmony singing. I started singing just over a year ago and since then have met many friends and enjoyed some great evenings and weekends. If you haven't even tried it, how do you know if you don't like it? It's definitely musical, sometimes quite lyrical and always challenging. If you fancy dipping your toe in the water come along to a new singing course in Clifford, starting on Sept 9th. Interested? email daytones@ntlworld.com. |
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Subject: RE: What's so wrong about Barbershop? From: M.Ted Date: 27 Aug 08 - 11:29 AM If you renamed Barbershop singing "Harmony Singing" then no one would know that it was Barbershop Singing, and you'd draw the Sacred Harp Singers, and the Doo-Wop Singers, and the Vocalese singers--all fine folks on their own, but mix them together and you're in trouble. |
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Subject: RE: What's so wrong about Barbershop? From: GUEST,jim Date: 27 Aug 08 - 02:49 PM ref |
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Subject: RE: What's so wrong about Barbershop? From: Bill D Date: 27 Aug 08 - 03:07 PM The term 'categories' is a very useful word. It allows us to structure our thoughts and activities in practical ways. As I said WAY back up ↑ there, and M. Ted indicates, you can't fit everything under one roof. We NEEDS ways to refer to subsets of "music", so that folks can discuss 'Barbershop' separately from Scared Harp..etc. (and yeah, that DOES mean we need to be ably to refer to 'traditional folk' without having 'singer/songwriter' get stuffed in by those who have no idea of historical perspective!) Barbershop is a very narrow category with tightly controlled rules & competitions and musical content. And in MY narrow view..*grin*...it is nice, but it don't belong in a 'folk' forum at all! |
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Subject: RE: What's so wrong about Barbershop? From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 27 Aug 08 - 06:29 PM Why don't they ever seem to sing any songs with any meaningful content? As people like Cooper Boyes and Simpson or Artisan, or the Voice Squad have demonstrated it is quite possible to have outstanding harmony singing while singing stuff that actually means something. |
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Subject: RE: What's so wrong about Barbershop? From: GUEST,Will Lever Date: 28 Aug 08 - 12:56 PM Nothing wrong with it - it's pleasant enough but is very similar to cathedral choirs singing Christmas carols it's just musical wallpaper. It just doesn't get me emotionally and a few minutes later I can't remember what it was about nor the tunes - and I think that is part of why traditional folk singers and musicians are indifferent to it - it is not unpleasant - but the artifice involved is it's main purpose and the story and human emotional interaction with music and words is secondary, if there at all. As a genre a bit closer to classical music with a bit of blues/jazz scales. Which I know appeals to many people but is not my thing. Really what I am trying to say is why I personally prefer traditional folk song - which is more difficult without getting involved into what constitutes 'folk'. |
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Subject: RE: What's so wrong about Barbershop? From: GUEST,TJ in San Diego Date: 28 Aug 08 - 01:04 PM If you have ever seen "The Music Man," on film or stage, the Buffalo Bills were a grand example of the possibilities inherent in the form. My two sons immediately liked the sound when they first heard it, at ages 5 and 7 - they still do. For me, it has little to do with the get-up, which is obviously meant to evoke turn-of-the-century (19th/20th)spring and summer imagery, with the stripes, white linen pants and boaters, etc. I just like the sound of good harmony, whether in voice or in, for example, a brass choir or wind or string ensemble. The sound is more than the sum of its parts. It's not for everyone, and seems very dated and treacly for many, but I still like to listen, now and then. |
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Subject: RE: What's so wrong about Barbershop? From: M.Ted Date: 28 Aug 08 - 02:20 PM You're being ironic, again, McGrath-- |
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Subject: RE: What's so wrong about Barbershop? From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 28 Aug 08 - 02:28 PM Not so. An difvcourse that should have been Coope, Boyes and Simpson. Sound like a firm of lawyers. Or rather they don't sound like a firm of lawyers, but the name does. Barbershop always sound to me like a musical instrument with very interersting possibilities being used to play music that doesn't even begin to open up those possibilities. A grand piano playing chopsticks. |
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Subject: RE: What's so wrong about Barbershop? From: M.Ted Date: 28 Aug 08 - 03:25 PM I don't know--I'm not familiar with any of those artists, so, rather than doing something of value this afternoon, I googled them--checked the lyrics, listened to a couple tunes, and I'm not seeing any great depth of meaning--typical folkie stuff, which is fine for them that likes it, but don't kid yourself into thinking that it means much more than the usual barbershop repertoire- |
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Subject: RE: What's so wrong about Barbershop? From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 28 Aug 08 - 04:04 PM I suppose it depends on what you mean by "depth of meaning". Myself I'd think this qualifies: Coop Boyes and Simpson singing Lay Me Low. |
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Subject: RE: What's so wrong about Barbershop? From: PoppaGator Date: 28 Aug 08 - 05:26 PM What's "meaningful" mean, anyway? To me, much of the purely-traditional folksong favored by many of our brethern hereabouts is pretty shallow in lyrical content, especially in comparison to much of the recently-written stuff (e.g., mid-20th-century acoustic "singer/songwriter" material) that they reject. The "s/s" stuff I like most is, not surprisingly, the product of artists of my own approximate age (Dylan, Paxton, Hunter/Garcia, Jackson Browne, Randy Newman, Lucinda Williams, Smokey Robinson, our buddy Bruce, etc., etc.). No one of the younger generation(s) has really caught my fancy, but then I'm not listening to very much of their output. I wonder if the appeal of much really old material has anything to do with "meaning," as much as the simple appeal of evoking an earlier age. Barbership certainly evokes an earlier, and presumably "simpler," era...but maybe it's not earlier enough (far enough into the past) to have the same appeal as, say, a Child ballad. And, to clarify things further, I have noting againt "meaningless" songs per se. There are songs I really love with nothing but nonsense lyrics; I do not fully understand why I like 'em so much, but whatever the reasons might be, they obviously must be purely musical. |
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Subject: RE: What's so wrong about Barbershop? From: M.Ted Date: 28 Aug 08 - 06:28 PM The line "When the emptiness eats me" together with the rotting corpses reflect a kind of depth, but not the sort that the artists may have intended. |
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Subject: RE: What's so wrong about Barbershop? From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 29 Aug 08 - 11:44 AM I would assume that that was indeed one of the meanings intended to be understood. |
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