Folklore: Widdershins - superstitions

Subject: Folklore: Widdershins - superstitions
From: Ella who is Sooze
Date: 25 Jul 07 - 03:49 AM

I am reading Dorothy L Sayers Book, the Nine Tailors at the moment. And she mentioned Widdershins, that the chap left the church and was careful to make sure he looked around the church going around to the right or Widdershins.

Do any of you know the superstition, and what other superstitions use the meaning. Where'd it come from?

EWIS

Subject: RE: Folklore: Widdershins - superstitions
From: Megan L
Date: 25 Jul 07 - 04:32 AM

Not sure of the meaning but the tradition is an old one in scotland no one would walk widershins round a kirk lest you call forth that which righteous folk feared.


Highland folk in particular were thought to be very supersticious and there are man tales of auld sootie trying tae get guid fowk.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Widdershins - superstitions
From: Megan L
Date: 25 Jul 07 - 04:37 AM

found this elsewhere anmswering a question about what we used to describe clockwise before we had clocks.

1. The original terms were Doseil meaning "Sunwise" or "With the Sun"
and Widdershins meaning "Against the Sun". These terms are Scottish Gaelic,

Subject: RE: Folklore: Widdershins - superstitions
From: IanC
Date: 25 Jul 07 - 04:47 AM

From the OED:

widdershins
/widdrshinz/ (also withershins)

• adverb chiefly Scottish in a direction contrary to the sun's course (or anticlockwise), considered as unlucky.

— ORIGIN High German widersinnes, from wider 'against' + sin 'direction'.

!!!!!

Subject: RE: Folklore: Widdershins - superstitions
From: IanC
Date: 25 Jul 07 - 04:48 AM

The tradition is an old one in England. 3 times round a church widdershins invokes the devil.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Widdershins - superstitions
From: IanC
Date: 25 Jul 07 - 04:53 AM

BTW the superstition is still operational.

I ring the bells for weddings at various churches and, while waiting to ring, I once advised a lady (who'd left the church to pacify a small child in a pushchair) not to go round again, as she'd already gone round the church twice widdershins.

Oddly enough, she followed my advice.

:-)

Subject: RE: Folklore: Widdershins - superstitions
From: Geoff the Duck
Date: 25 Jul 07 - 07:16 AM

The one I have happened across is something on the lines of wat IanC said.
3 times widdershins (anticlockwise) and the Devil comes.

It is so long sice that I do mot recall if it was part of a story, a rhyme or what?

Quack!
GtD.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Widdershins - superstitions
From: IanC
Date: 25 Jul 07 - 07:59 AM

Despite all the *crap* you'll find if you do an internet search, there are a few examples of the supersition in the 20th and 21st centuries. Here's an example from Kent ...

Memories of West Kingsdown (Northwest Kent, UK) in the 1950s - Maggie Exon

When we were very little we were not too happy about walking home from school through the churchyard although that was a quick way. We hated the tombstones which were vaguely body shaped and found it all pretty spooky. We believed firmly in the superstition that you should not walk widdershins (anti-clockwise) round the church because if you did all sorts of ghoulies and ghosties would come out and get you.

Oddly, it seems to have been encouraged for cheeses in Gloucestershire ... or maybe the blessing negates the curse?

First Sunday in May, blessing of the cheeses, Randwick, UK. Prior to the next Saturday's ancient cheese-rolling ceremony/game, the 'Randwick Wap', the cheeses – usually three double Gloucesters – are rolled mystically and anticlockwise around the Church after being blessed.

:-)
Ian

Subject: RE: Folklore: Widdershins - superstitions
From: Muttley
Date: 25 Jul 07 - 08:21 AM

Interestingly the term Widdershins is also used by Terry Pratchett in his Discworld Novels - certain aspects of the discworld are considered 'Widdershins' that is towards where the sun rises above the shell of the Great A'Tuin.

However, in Australian Aboriginal folklore the 'widdershins' direction is in fact the most sacred. But then - being on the opposite side of the globe (south of the equator) clockwise would probably be the 'wrong' direction.

All I know is that in '02 when we visited Central Australia, I declined an invitation to 'Climb the Rock' - the local Aboriginals (and most other tribespeople I have encountered) consider Uluru sacred and I considered (and still do) that to climb the rock (even though my adventurous and competitive side WANTED to) and still do; that to do so would be the equivalent of them taking a trip to one of our pre-eminent cathedrals and climbing all over the altar, tabernacle and sacristy!

Instead of climbing (and despite disability) I determined to walk the 9 and a half kilometer circuit around it.

As we stood in the car park I noticed that about 98% of the people leaving to 'walk the circuit' were moving off to their left - that is, walking the circuit in a clockwise direction. (I didn't realise that about 50% or more of these were actually only walking around to the "sunrise" car park about 3 - 4 kilometres and then getting picked up again) and so I and my two older boys set off walking 'Widdershins" around the Rock. Mainly because I hate walking in groups and secondly - once we got out there alone it just FELT RIGHT!!!!!

We did the 4 - 4 1/2 hour walk in 3 1/2 hours - and that included stopping for drinks and photo's.

The big buzz came when we went across to the Cultural centre adjacent and we were talking among ourselves about our walk and on of the older men working there asked us which way we went - did we walk clockwise or anti-clockwise around Uluru.

I thought for a minute (we hadn't actually thought about the direction of our walk in those terms until then) and said - "Anti-clockwise; Widdershins!"

He gave us this most amazing smile - his white teeth flashing from that incedibly blue-black skin and thick beard and said - "You did it the right way, then brother. That's the proper direction to walk - the Dreaming Trail is walked anti-clockwise!"

I was quite happy about that - especially because, as I said, walking widdershins just FELT right.

Muttley

Subject: RE: Folklore: Widdershins - superstitions
From: GUEST,cg
Date: 25 Jul 07 - 09:57 AM

My grandfather used to get very upset if whoever was cooking stirred anything anticlockwise.

He never explained why, he'd just get very agitated and say, don't do that, you should always stir things clockwise.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Widdershins - superstitions
From: IanC
Date: 25 Jul 07 - 10:07 AM

More ... In Dorothy L. Sayers' The Nine Tailors, Lord Peter Wimsey

... turned to his right, knowing that it is unlucky to walk about a church widdershins.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Widdershins - superstitions
From: Ella who is Sooze
Date: 25 Jul 07 - 10:08 AM

lots of info all. Thanks. Very interesting.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Widdershins - superstitions
From: IanC
Date: 25 Jul 07 - 10:13 AM

And more (supporting Guest cg's contribution).

CULTURE UK - SUPERSTITIONS

In days gone by food preparation was surrounded by so many taboos it is amazing anyone got anything to eat. Many housewives believed that food would be spoilt if it was stirred 'widdershins' - that is, in the opposite direction to that of the sun.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Widdershins - superstitions
From: GUEST
Date: 25 Jul 07 - 10:25 AM

Chanctonbury Ring - high up on the Sussex Downs. According to Sussex Folklore if you run round the ring 7 times widdershins watch out for the devil!

http://www2.prestel.co.uk/aspen/sussex/chanctonbury.html#folk1

Subject: RE: Folklore: Widdershins - superstitions
From: GUEST,SussexCarole
Date: 25 Jul 07 - 10:26 AM

Oops - that last post was from me!!

Subject: RE: Folklore: Widdershins - superstitions
From: Llanfair
Date: 25 Jul 07 - 11:27 AM

I hope you enjoy "The Nine Tailors", it's one of my all-time favourites.

I've been secretly in love with Lord Peter for years!!!

Subject: RE: Folklore: Widdershins - superstitions
From: EBarnacle
Date: 26 Jul 07 - 12:02 AM

I was talking with a sailing student the other day and he told me that there is an equivalent German superstition and that the word was "Wiederseins" as opposed to "Wiedersehens." The pronunciations are similar but not the same.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Widdershins - superstitions
From: GUEST,cg
Date: 26 Jul 07 - 03:47 AM

Thanks for that information, IanC.

Can anyone tell me why my grandfather also believed that if you eat fish the knives and forks should be washed, stuck in the soil in the garden for a few hours then (obviously!) washed again because otherwise they wouldn't be properly clean?

Subject: RE: Folklore: Widdershins - superstitions
From: Megan L
Date: 26 Jul 07 - 04:02 AM

To get rid of the smell my mum used to do that is she cut onions.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Widdershins - superstitions
From: Ella who is Sooze
Date: 27 Jul 07 - 03:57 AM

Hi All, was away at the Royal Welsh show yesterday. WHAT a day! Rained heavily, had to be towed out of a very muddy car park. But good day had by all. Despite being thigh high spattered with mud I enjoyed myself. Was a day of part work, part my own free time.

Thanks for all this info and discussion, some good links.

I'm halfway through nine tailors. One of the bell ringers I know and ring with lent me the book. It's a good one. Though as a learner bell ringer, some of the little quotes at the start of each chapter are passing me by, but I'll go back to them and figure em out. I like to refer my ringing with the description as sounding like the Les Dawson version of bell ringing.

Thanks all

EWIS

Subject: RE: Folklore: Widdershins - superstitions
From: John J
Date: 27 Jul 07 - 06:10 AM

Around here (N Cheshire / S Lancashire) Widdershins = arse about face /t'other way round / wrong way round.

Bernard may be able to advise more in depth regarding the Lancashire use of the term.

JJ

Subject: RE: Folklore: Widdershins - superstitions
From: Snuffy
Date: 27 Jul 07 - 09:18 AM

The Lancashire meaning is the same as everybody else's - "in the opposite direction".

Anti-clockwiae is arse about face /t'other way round / wrong way round, isn't it?

Subject: RE: Folklore: Widdershins - superstitions
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 27 Jul 07 - 09:43 AM

Widdershins = turning against the sun = going anti-clockwise = turning to the left = sinister.

It's all part of the ongoing prejudice against left handed people and those who walk their own path.

I'd never heard a specific superstition, but then as 3rd generation left handed (and Limpit makes 4th), we were used to stirring stuff anti-clockwise, turning to the left out of doors and not being able to use tin openers.

LTS

Subject: RE: Folklore: Widdershins - superstitions
From: GUEST,highlandman
Date: 27 Jul 07 - 12:23 PM

From what I've read, the sunwise direction was associated from pre-christian antiquity with making/binding/blessing and the widdershins direction with unmaking/loosing/cursing. Who knows for sure why, but most likely because all the things in the sky go that way, to a northern hemispherian at least.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Widdershins - superstitions
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 27 Jul 07 - 09:55 PM

I don't see any connection between going clockwise and going with the sun. Now, if I travelled from west to east, that would be going against the sun.

As for going widdershins (anticlockwise) around a church, which way you go depends on whether you imagine the clock on the ground looking up or in the sky, looking down.

Baffling!