Homeland Security??????? For shame!!

Subject: RE: Homeland Security??????? For shame!!
From: pdq
Date: 23 Aug 07 - 09:34 PM

frogprince,

The pernicious misunderstanding you have done seems to be based on an inability to focus you thoughts and answer two simple questions.

Is it that you cannot answer the questions or do you think twisting what I said will make those questions go away?

Subject: RE: Homeland Security??????? For shame!!
From: frogprince
Date: 23 Aug 07 - 09:26 PM

"Nobody raided the Swift Co. factory looking for people who have followed the laws and obeyed the rules."
"Are you in favor of the huge migration of illegal aliens into the US?
If you do not want this migration to continue, what do you feel should be done to stop it?"

The impression you're giving, pdq, is that you think we should freely brutalize, terrorize, and humiliate every hispanic-appearing person in this country if that is what is necessary to apprehend any possible illegal aamong them.

Subject: RE: Homeland Security??????? For shame!!
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 23 Aug 07 - 08:04 PM

"except in darkness, every movement scrutinized"

... but technology has now overtaken that too...\

Subject: RE: Homeland Security??????? For shame!!
From: Amos
Date: 23 Aug 07 - 07:53 PM

The day the announcement was made that our fair nation was going to grow a Homeland Security branch I nearly wept. There was no special reason other than the traditional use of the word "Homeland" with the brutal duplicities of the U.S.S.R. at its worst. It reeked of the kind of language used by ugly fascism.

Seems my gut instinct was not far off. According to Patti Davis in Newsweek this week, "...now even a frown or grimace can get you into trouble with The Man.

"Specially trained security personnel" will be watching passengers for "micro-expressions" that will reveal treacherous agendas and insidious intentions at airports around the country. These agents, who may literally hold your fate in their hands have been given a lofty, Orwellian name: "Behavior Detection Officers."

Did anyone ever doubt that George Orwell's prophecies in "1984" would arrive? In that novel, he wrote, "You had to live—did live, from habit that became instinct—in the assumption that every sound you made was overheard and, except in darkness, every movement scrutinized."

In the study of "micro-expressions"—yes, it is actually a field of study and there are some who are arrogant enough to call it a science—it has been decided that when people wish to conceal emotions, the truth of their feelings is revealed in facial flashes. These experts have determined that fear and disgust are the key things to look for because they can hint of deception.

Let's see, fear and disgust in an airport? I'm frightened and disgusted weeks before I have to show up at an airport. In fact, I've pretty much sworn off the whole idea of going anywhere by airplane. It's bad enough that I might be trapped in a crowded plane with no food or water and nonworking toilets for hours; now there are security agents interpreting our facial expressions. The face police, in place at more than a dozen U.S. airports already, aren't identified as such. But the watcher could be at curbside baggage, the ticket counter or near the metal detectors and X-ray machines. The Transportation Security Administration hopes to have as many as 500 Behavior Detection Officers on the job by the end of 2008.

But what about the woman who is getting on a plane to see a dying relative? Or the man who is traveling to another state to see a cancer specialist in a last bid for extending his life? What about the guy who just had a fight with his spouse and now worries that a plane crash would mean their last words were in anger? We've all had the experience of having a bad day, being in a rotten mood—especially at the airport, which has become a modern-day chamber or horrors. On those days, doesn't it seem like everyone we meet looks sour and unpleasant? The opposite is also true. When we're happy and joyful, we look at others and see happiness in them. Or even if we don't, we look at them kindly and with compassion. It's human nature to look at others through the lens of our own reality.

Here's where it gets really absurd. Apparently, these Behavior Detection Officers work in pairs. One scenario is that an officer might move in to "help" a passenger retrieve their belongings after they've been screened. And then the officer will ask where the passenger is headed. If the passenger's reaction sets off alarm bells in the officer's well-trained mind, another officer will move in and detain them. Let's be really clear here. If a stranger moved in on me like that, I'd tell that person to go to hell, throw in a few other expletives for good measure and probably give them the finger as I stomped off. Of course, I wouldn't be stomping very far.

So while TSA employees are confiscating our scissors and water bottles, they're going to secretly be staring at us, looking for some telltale sign of terrorist intent in a grimace, a sigh, a crinkled nose? Who knows what? In the end, the Behavior Detection Officers are the ones who are really acting suspicious. Which is the truth of the matter anyway."

(Excerpted from Newsweek 8-16-07)

...

Orwell was prophetic, and what is far worse, he was acurate in kind, if not yet in degree. Doubletalk, thoughtcrime, face crime, a version of a Ministry of Truth, doublethink, have all arrived in spades in America under the compassionate conservatism of Rovian Bushery,

Rove's own vision of permanent majority for his kind is reminiscent of these words from the leader of the Party:

"The Party seeks power entirely for its own sake… We are different from all the oligarchies of the past, in that we know what we are doing. All the others, even those who resembled ourselves, were cowards and hypocrites. The German Nazis and the Russian Communists came very close to us in their methods, but they never had the courage to recognize their own motives. They pretended, perhaps they even believed, that they had seized power unwillingly and for a limited time, and that just round the corner there lay a paradise where human beings would be free and equal. We are not like that. We know that no one ever seizes power with the intention of relinquishing it. Power is not a means, it is an end. One does not establish a dictatorship in order to safeguard a revolution; one makes the revolution in order to establish the dictatorship. The object of persecution is persecution. The object of torture is torture. The object of power is power."

– Part III, chapter III, 1984

---

Kinda puts me in the mood for a two-minute hate, ya know?


A

Subject: RE: Homeland Security??????? For shame!!
From: pdq
Date: 23 Aug 07 - 05:54 PM

Ebbie,

Rather than discuss each point, please answer the following two questions:

                Are you in favor of the huge migration of illegal aliens into the US?

                If you do not want this migration to continue, what do you feel should be done to stop it.

Subject: RE: Homeland Security??????? For shame!!
From: Ebbie
Date: 23 Aug 07 - 05:46 PM

If you read the link, pdq, you'd see that it is talking about illegal AND legal immigrants.

Subject: RE: Homeland Security??????? For shame!!
From: pdq
Date: 23 Aug 07 - 05:40 PM

"Most immigrant patients have jobs and pay taxes..." ~ Ebbie

Nice job of deception by you and Snopes as the subject is illegal immigration. Of course most of the legal immigrants have jobs. It is part of the process, along with learning the language and studying the US Constitution. Nobody raided the Swift Co. factory looking for people who have followed the laws and obeyed the rules.

Subject: RE: Homeland Security??????? For shame!!
From: Ebbie
Date: 23 Aug 07 - 05:28 PM

"Over 1200 hospitals in the southwestern US have (been?) driven to insolvency after being flooded by illegals from Mexico who don't pay for their care" pdq

Documentation, please.

snopes.com


"Most immigrant patients have jobs and pay taxes, through paycheck deductions or property taxes included in their rent, administrators at the Dallas and Fort Worth hospitals said. At both institutions, they have a better record of paying their bills than low-income Americans do, the administrators said.

"The largest group of illegal immigrant patients is pregnant women, hospital figures show. Contrary to popular belief here, their care is not paid for by local taxes. Under a 2002 amendment to federal regulations the births are covered through Medicaid because the children automatically become American citizens."

And the provision of automatic citizenship for anyone born here goes W A Y back.

Subject: RE: Homeland Security??????? For shame!!
From: pdq
Date: 23 Aug 07 - 04:06 PM

This incident and the reaction to it are symptoms of a huge problem: the American people do not speak with a unified voice on most of the important issue we face: abortion, illegal immigration, gun ownership, universal health care, etc.

We cannot take definitive actions when we do not agree what those actions should be.

A few of points. Illegal immigration effectively ends any chance of universal health care because everyone entering the country illegally will be treated at any hospital they visit. That is the law. Over 1200 hospitals in the southwestern US have driven to insolvency after being flooded by illegals from Mexico who don't pay for their care. We need a finite population so we can build the right number of hospitals and train the medical personnel needed. Note that the 32 million Mexicans who snuck into the US included no doctors.

In Mexico, gun ownership is illegal hence these people have no history of responsible handling of firearms. LA and Phoenix not sound like war zones do to Mexican gang violence and firearm abuse.

The raid on the Swift factory is quite in line with the statement of politicians like Diane Feinstein who have always called for employer sanctions instead of stopping people at the border. The raid reminds me of Janet Reno's jack-booted attack on the house where Illian Gonzales was staying.

We need to decide what problems need to be addressed and how to fix them. Once decided, we need to speak with a unified voice or we will surely lose this country.

Subject: RE: Homeland Security??????? For shame!!
From: Bee
Date: 23 Aug 07 - 12:09 PM

I am sorry that you are missing my point.

Subject: RE: Homeland Security??????? For shame!!
From: Big Mick
Date: 23 Aug 07 - 11:19 AM

Bee, I didn't miss your post. This isn't being passed around by a union. It was my statement. I don't speak for a union, I am a union organizer who is bearing witness to what I have seen.

This thread isn't about Canada/US relations. It is about the reprehensible actions of an agency of the Department of Homeland Security. It is about treating human beings as if they were sub human. It is about a elderly veteran of the Korean War, detained in this raid simply because he looked Hispanic. When he stepped to the microphone he simply said, "This isn't what I fought for, I want my rights back!!!" and then took his seat. It is about a 7 1/2 month pregnant, at the time, woman sobbing at the microphone as she recalled the fear and humiliation that she might soil herself because they wouldn't let her go to the bathroom. It is about the American born citizens of this country being presumed guilty because of the color of their skin and being handcuffed for hours on end. It is about the black guy that had worked in the plant for 20+ years being told that he was being held because "southern mexicans get pretty dark". It is about this country, due to the color of someones skin and the language they speak, rationalizing that it is OK to violate the 4th Amendment principles laid out in our most important document, the principles that we have constructed our society on. It is about forgetting that we are a "City upon a hill..." and that the world, including those that would see us disappear, note these things and use them against our way of life. It is about remembering that our challenge is to "lift up the lamp beside the golden door" not just for those of European extraction, but for all "yearning to be free" not just from the hardship of tyrannical leaders, but also from the tyranny of economic hardship.

We will not get bogged down in this conversation by an unfortunate mistatement on my part. I have apologized for that statement, now I would appreciate getting back to the discussion I intended in this thread. Thanks for cooperating.

Mick

Subject: RE: Homeland Security??????? For shame!!
From: Bee
Date: 23 Aug 07 - 10:47 AM

"I certainly will follow that link, and I apologize for the mistatement. Quite frankly I thought that was the case. But it is idiotic, dianavan to think that this invalidates the whole thread.   I am not attacking Canada, my many friends there know I hold our northern neighbor in the highest esteem. The point isn't that they came in from Canada, it is the notion that somehow the Mexican border represents a real threat, yet there is no comparable concern about the Canadian border. And I maintain it is cultural racism that causes that.I maintain that because these friends from Mexico are brown skinned and speak a different language, there is a different set of rules that cause folks to overlook these outrages, or even justify them.
" - Big Mick

Big Mick, you may have missed my previous post. I know in this quote you are addressing dianavan, but I share her POV here. Because your original post contains this hurtful lie, it is easy to dismiss the rest of it as probably yet more lies, or at least unfounded or exaggerated stories. And that hurts your cause.

Speaking from North of the border, I agree it looks like cultural racism is involved in the rantings we read about the Mexican border, not just beacuse of race, but because most Mexican border crossers are also poor - there is classism involved.

If you check around, by the way, you'll find there are plenty of Americans ranting about the Canadian border (mostly because of that lie), and a few of them actually sitting out, Minuteman like, in lawn chairs watching for illegals.

Subject: RE: Homeland Security??????? For shame!!
From: Rapparee
Date: 23 Aug 07 - 09:53 AM

And it wasn't very long ago that the NRA warned us about jack-booted government thugs coming to take our guns!

I am starting to be concerned about jack-booted government thugs in general. Well, actually, I always have been, but this sort of thing reinforces it.

I recently entered and returned from Canada. Going in, the Customs agent said to us, "Be sure to sign your passports [they were brand new] or they won't let you back into the US." Coming back, with signed passports, we were asked what we were bringing in with us (mostly books) and how much liquor we had (1 liter of 151 proof rum). I guess a white, over-60, couple in a Honda Element are about as much of a threat to US security as, oh, the average Canadian or Mexican or Irishman or Icelander or Nigerian or Arab or Thai or Japanese.

Mick, I agree about the racism thing.

Subject: RE: Homeland Security??????? For shame!!
From: Big Mick
Date: 23 Aug 07 - 09:19 AM

I certainly will follow that link, and I apologize for the mistatement. Quite frankly I thought that was the case. But it is idiotic, dianavan to think that this invalidates the whole thread.   I am not attacking Canada, my many friends there know I hold our northern neighbor in the highest esteem. The point isn't that they came in from Canada, it is the notion that somehow the Mexican border represents a real threat, yet there is no comparable concern about the Canadian border. And I maintain it is cultural racism that causes that.I maintain that because these friends from Mexico are brown skinned and speak a different language, there is a different set of rules that cause folks to overlook these outrages, or even justify them.

But the thread isn't about the border with Canada. It is about the treatment of neighbors as if they were sub human. It is about thugs using any excuse to dress up like commandoes and scare people, treat them in inhumane manner, and violate the Constitution. It is about being concerned about neighbors and their children. It is about getting Joe and Jane Average to open their eyes and see that this is not the democracy which folks have died to defend. It is about children who don't know where there folks are, being traumatized, and when they grow up with a chip on their shoulders and hate the USA, we wonder why.

Subject: RE: Homeland Security??????? For shame!!
From: kendall
Date: 23 Aug 07 - 06:49 AM

Calling an illegal alien a "Undocumented worker" is like calling a drug pusher an "Unlicensed pharmacist"

Subject: RE: Homeland Security??????? For shame!!
From: Bee
Date: 23 Aug 07 - 06:10 AM

I also think the actions described are horrifying, but again, the inclusion of that old, persistent lie about the 9/11 terrorists coming from Canada made me sceptical of the whole thing.

Big Mick, my husband belongs to a large union which operates in both Canada and the US. If this lie is being passed around among his union brothers and sisters in the US, it is not a good thing.

That lie is in some small part responsible for the insane changes made to our border crossings, for the almost fifty percent drop in US tourism to Canada over the past few years, and for increasing suspicion and division between our two countries.

Subject: RE: Homeland Security??????? For shame!!
From: Janie
Date: 23 Aug 07 - 01:12 AM

dianavan,

Mick may have wrong information about how the 9/11 terrorists got into the country. Now that you have pointed that out to him, I know Mick well enough to be sure he will follow your link and make any needed corrections to the facts. That does not, however, warrant labeling the the whole sad, frightening tale bogus. I don't speak Spanish so I don't work directly with the hispanic migrants that are a significant minority in my area. I do, however, work with Anglo women married to hispanic (mostly Mexican) migrants. In most, but all circumstances, their partners are here legally, and have been here for years and years. They are living in ever increasing fear. Legal migrants with wives and children who are US citizens are living with justifiable fear that one misstep, a simple traffic violation for example, will lead to their deportation. Or simply that a beaurocratic screw-up or simple computer glitch will rip apart their families forever.

Their fears are justified. A very simple example that I know is factual, simply because I attempted to intervene, unsuccessfully, on behalf of the family. Legal Mexican immigrant , legally married to my Anglo client for 15 years. Two children, ages 10 & 6. Long term, permanent employment on a local tobacco farm. Got a DWI two years ago. Quit drinking, got into treatment, dealt with the substance abuse issue. Never got the money together to pay the considerable fines and court costs to get his drivers license back. So he didn't drive. She drove him back and forth to work. But the fines were still not paid. Last October, he was contacted by the local INS (federal agency, Immigration and Naturalization Service) that he needed to come in to sign some paperwork to renew his Green Card (documentaltion that he is a legal alien). It was a trick. When he didn't come home that night, she started making phone calls. The next day she called INS when they opened. His papers were in order and current. They had lured him in and detained him in order to deport him for failure to pay the fines. Neither she or their children were allowed to see or talk to him before he was sent back to Mexico. It is almost a year later. He is in Mexico and can not return to his family. The family is now on welfare. The kids are absolutely bewildered as to what happened to their Dad. (really, so is Mom.) If Mom and kids could find the means to go to Mexico to join him, he could not support them there. And besides, Mom is anglo and the kids have been born and raised in the USA. This is their country, their home. It had become his home too.

We hve become a fascist state.

It isn't just immigrants or other minorities folks. They are coming after you and me next.

I wish I could attibute that to paranoid thinking on my part. But it is not. It is a realistic assessment of the current state, and future direction of our country. These gestapo tactics with devalued immigrants are simply a dress rehearsal for what you and I, most of us White, can expect to experience in this brave new world in which we live.

dont' think for one minute that you are safe.http://wunc.org/tsot Don't be fooled into believing that Big Brother is not watching.

Subject: RE: Homeland Security??????? For shame!!
From: Barry Finn
Date: 23 Aug 07 - 12:30 AM

I don't know weither or not what dianavan sayss is true but that's no reason to write off treatment like that.
Thanks Mick for letting on about this, it causes me to wonder about the raids that we're hearing about here in the northeast. We hear about the raids but not the aftermath. There was one situation where Sens Kennedy & Kerry had to intercide because of dentanies (illegal???) being treated like wild animals & being kept from their children.
This is a action that will come to haunt us as it terrorfies workers of color nation wide.


Barry

Subject: RE: Homeland Security??????? For shame!!
From: GUEST,dianavan
Date: 23 Aug 07 - 12:07 AM

Mick - I am surprised that you are spreading gossip! This is a myth that was de-bunked, long ago. I am amazed that people in the U.S. still believe this lie.

"Where did the terrorists who killed 3500+ people sneak into the country from? Canada."

As far as I'm concerned, that statement makes this whole, entire thread bogus.

"The mistaken belief about the 9-11 terrorists persists in the United States, despite all evidence to the contrary. U.S. officials and the commission that studied the attacks have pointed out the inaccuracy.

High-profile U.S. conservative Newt Gingrich apologized to Canadians last spring after telling Fox News: "Far more of the 9-11 terrorists came across from Canada than from Mexico."

In fact, none of the terrorists entered the United States from either country."

http://www.cbc.ca/cp/world/051220/w122094.html

Subject: RE: Homeland Security??????? For shame!!
From: Ebbie
Date: 22 Aug 07 - 11:18 PM

Ron, I have said something of the sort but only to say that if they/we are serious about keeping illegal immigrants out, that is the way to go. If we shut down a business down for 30 days every time an illegal immigrant was found there- WalMart comes to mind - business would quickly decide that hiring undocumented workers is not cost effective. And if an illegal immigrant couldn't find work he and she wouldn't come.

Mind you, I am NOT in favor of it. For one thing I have a big problem with the whole idea of borders. As in: This is mine. That is yours.

And the division of ownership is completely dependent on the luck of the draw.

Borders are artificial; human beings are equal.

Subject: RE: Homeland Security??????? For shame!!
From: Ron Davies
Date: 22 Aug 07 - 08:37 PM

A few items:

1) Smithfield (and Swift and Tyson) had voluntarily participated in employment verification programs set up by the government to vet new hires.

2) You ain't seen nothin' yet. Under new rules, scheduled to take effect next month, businesses with workers whose Social Security numbers don't match their names could face criminal charges and hefty fines. Growers, for instance, will have to decide whether to shut down, move operations somewhere with a steady supply of legal workers--why does Mexico come to mind?--or pay illegals off the books and hope they're not raided.

Likely outcomes--more people working off the books entirely--many have families here and thus can't easily return to "country of origin"-- ( in the facile phrase of the restrictionists)--and thus more vulnerable than ever to exploitation.

And crops rotting in the fields.

And as has been noted, as far as we know no jihadist has been turned up by these raids.


3) NB, this--pressure on employers--is what many have suggested as the solution to the illegal immigration problem----- many, including, unfortunately, some Mudcatters.

Subject: RE: Homeland Security??????? For shame!!
From: gnu
Date: 22 Aug 07 - 07:12 PM

So true. History, eh?

Subject: RE: Homeland Security??????? For shame!!
From: Nickhere
Date: 22 Aug 07 - 06:53 PM

Western governments have been drifting to the far right for some time while much of Latin America and the 'third world' have swung to the left. My feeling is that citizens of western democracies should start using their votes to create the fear-free society they would like. If there isn't a political party that you would vote for - start one.

Don't wait around until it's too late. If our leaders are allowed to get away with acting like despots, despotism is what you'll get. Just ask the Germans.

Subject: RE: Homeland Security??????? For shame!!
From: GUEST,the unemployed psychic
Date: 22 Aug 07 - 06:32 PM

The propogation of fear for control is indeed old.

I once saw an old CIA memo proposing that a public prosecution and execution of Julius and Ethel Rosenburg would have the additional benefit of spreading fear and obedience throughout the American Jewish community.

Subject: RE: Homeland Security??????? For shame!!
From: gnu
Date: 22 Aug 07 - 06:25 PM

Are you alluding to za Fatherland, Herr Lane? Surely you know vee have vays to make you feel saver, eh?

Sorry if... not a joking matter, but, hey, I am me.

Subject: RE: Homeland Security??????? For shame!!
From: Big Mick
Date: 22 Aug 07 - 06:11 PM

It is, indeed, my voice. I was at a national conference in which these workers from Grand Island, NE, Worthington, MN, and others related their experiences. The ICE has denied these things occurred but I spoke with 20 or so workers, and had you been there you would agree that Almost without exception, they were credible.

This madness, in the name of "Homeland Security" (does that whole name conjure up wrong images for anyone else?), has got to stop.

Mick

Subject: RE: Homeland Security??????? For shame!!
From: katlaughing
Date: 22 Aug 07 - 05:01 PM

SharonA, from what I saw in the other thread, the whole thing is Mick posting from personal experience as a union organizer. It is the voice we used to hear a lot from him and I welcome its appearance here, again.

Subject: RE: Homeland Security??????? For shame!!
From: jeffp
Date: 22 Aug 07 - 04:30 PM

Actually, Kris said it; Janis just repeated it.

Subject: RE: Homeland Security??????? For shame!!
From: Sorcha
Date: 22 Aug 07 - 04:18 PM

Sharon, and that is what SUCKS! As Janis said...'Freedom's just another word, for nothing left to lose'

Subject: RE: Homeland Security??????? For shame!!
From: kendall
Date: 22 Aug 07 - 04:09 PM

Goering was right

Subject: RE: Homeland Security??????? For shame!!
From: SharonA
Date: 22 Aug 07 - 03:53 PM

Sorcha: Morally wrong, yes. Absolutely. Unconstitutional? Depends on the interpretation, but most probably. But "criminal" signifies that laws were broken, and unfortunately laws have been passed that allow this sort of thing to happen. Until those laws are declared unconstitutional by a Supreme Court that is not composed of the toadies of the administration that wanted those laws passed, we can expect far more of the same sort of thing.

I'm afraid that more than the standard "alert the media" and "write to your congressman" strategy is required here if we want to effect change.

Subject: RE: Homeland Security??????? For shame!!
From: Sorcha
Date: 22 Aug 07 - 03:33 PM

Well, I found out that Homeland Security has an Entertainment Division...maybe this was it?

I don't care HOW old it is, it is CRIMINAL!!!!

Subject: RE: Homeland Security??????? For shame!!
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 22 Aug 07 - 02:57 PM

In case you haven't noticed, the terrorists have won.

Subject: RE: Homeland Security??????? For shame!!
From: SharonA
Date: 22 Aug 07 - 02:46 PM

I did a bit of Googling after reading this, because the story sounded familiar but dated. The results indicate that this happened last December. I found news reports from December 12, 2006 that ICE had raided six Swift & Co. plants in Colorado, Nebraska, Texas, Utah, Iowa and Minnesota.

I'm confused about Mick's post, though, since most of it is italicized. I may be wrong, but this doesn't sound like Mick's Mudcat "voice" (i.e. writing style) to me. Mick, is this your account or did you copy-and-paste someone else's account? Where it says, "I was present", what does that mean? Doesn't sound like you were there during the raid. And why this 8-month delay?

By the way, in one of the articles from last December that I found, it says: "Federal immigration officials on Wednesday [Dec. 13, 2006] claimed that Swift & Co. allowed hundreds of illegal employees to avoid deportation by firing them before Tuesday's massive raid [Dec. 12]. But Swift disagreed, saying immigration officials gave permission to the meatpacking company to question employees, some of whom then quit when confronted about their documentation. The dispute came to a head Wednesday, one day after immigration raids at six Swift & Co. plants netted 1,282 suspects. Federal immigration officials claimed the meat processor fired the employees without their [ICE's] permission after Swift learned of the federal probe." (Reference: RockyMountainNews.com)

Subject: RE: Homeland Security??????? For shame!!
From: katlaughing
Date: 22 Aug 07 - 02:23 PM

Yes, to what Ebbie and gnu suggest. I am really glad you've started a separate thread for this, Mick.

Subject: RE: Homeland Security??????? For shame!!
From: gnu
Date: 22 Aug 07 - 02:11 PM

And John Stewart's "The Daily Show" at the Comedy Network.... I'd bet he would love to crawl up there collective, ah, ummm, er, alleys, yeah, alleys. Stephen Colbert too.

Subject: RE: Homeland Security??????? For shame!!
From: Ebbie
Date: 22 Aug 07 - 02:04 PM

Big Mick, please send your post ver batim to Senator Harry Reid 528 HART SENATE OFFICE BUILDING WASHINGTON DC 20510 at the United States Senate and to Nancy Pelosi 2371 Rayburn House Office Building.

Somehow this madness has to be stopped.

Subject: RE: Homeland Security??????? For shame!!
From: gnu
Date: 22 Aug 07 - 01:49 PM

I read Mick's post on the other thread. I just read it again and it's just as sickening as the first time I read it. Jack-booted thugs with guns and covered faces... sweet *****, what next?

Subject: RE: Homeland Security??????? For shame!!
From: Rapparee
Date: 22 Aug 07 - 01:32 PM

Send everyone back where the came from. The country'd be better off without any humans at all in it anyway.

Mick, when and where did this happen?

Subject: RE: Homeland Security??????? For shame!!
From: MMario
Date: 22 Aug 07 - 12:38 PM

yeah - the worst part is that such behavior is no new thing. It's been going on at least since the early '80s; which is when I had to watch armed (and flak-jacketed) immigration officials handcuff and remove several employees at a restaurant I was working at on suspicion of being illegal. They would not allow either to change out of their uniforms into civies in private - depite the fact that the locker rooms had no windows or doors other then the one.

Subject: Homeland Security??????? For shame!!
From: Big Mick
Date: 22 Aug 07 - 12:33 PM

This is a post I did in another thread. It describes such madness ...... such a fundamental betrayal of the principles and history and dreams of this land, that I just feel like it needs discussion on its own.

Let me tell you about being caused to live in fear. Let me tell you about one of the the Departments that is creating fear.

ICE (Immigration and Customs Enforcement)recently raided a couple of Swift and Co. plants. They rounded up 1300 folks that simply went to work. The raid was conducted by agents dressed in black commando gear, with automatic weapons, balaclava's, and very little that ID'ed them as Agents. They forced everyone into a hall, and cuffed them using the fiber cuffs. For 4 to 5 hours, they wouldn't let them eat, drink, or call their kids (who were getting out of school). When they finally let women go to the bathroom, they had to do so with the stall door open, a male agent present and watching, and the male agents in some cases, due to still being cuffed, had to pull the pants down so the women could go to the bathroom. Virtually every person subjected to this was a US citizen, or a legal resident alien. When the raid was over, and the suspects vetted, it turned out that less than 4% of the suspects were undocumented aliens. A number of these folks, citizens and undocumented aliens, were moved to facilities in another State. One of the men was a Korean War veteran. Another was 6th generation American. One woman born and raised here was detained for hours while the ICE agents insisted she was Guatemalan. Another US citizen was 7 1/2 months pregnant and not allowed water or bathroom privileges for 5 hours. She was in tears just telling of her fear, shame, and humiliation. Another lady, a legal resident alien, when she saw the men with guns all dressed in black, was sure it was a terrorist attack and was looking to hide in the middle of people and play dead.

This is not second hand. I was present and heard these accounts given from the mouths of those who experienced it. This information is documented.

Our Constitution and laws are supposedly a reflection of our national morality. They codify what we believe to be the right way to live and treat others, our land, our workers, and so on. Our Declaration of Independence says We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. Notice that is says all men and not all white men that are American citizens. The Fourth Amendment of our Constitution, which applies to all people in this country and not just people born in this country, says 'The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated". These documents, and this action cause me to ask a couple of questions:

Where did the terrorists who killed 3500+ people sneak into the country from? Canada. Anyone talking about building a fence on the Canadian border? No. Why? My opinion is that it is racism pure and simple. There is a huge difference in scope and practice between folks that sneak in seeking to destroy our way of life, and folks sneaking in to simply give their kids a better life. Anyone of you that are Irish, Polish, Italian, etc should realize that this is how and why your ancxestors came.

What was it that these thugs masqueraiding as Federal Agents thought they would face that they had to come in dressed in black with automatic weapons, cuff and detain folks when they were simply looking for immigration violations? You would have thought they were going into an Al Qaeda stronghold against armed terrorists instead of simply checking the documents of workers in a plant. On the grand scale of it all, a violation of these documentation rules is probably worse than a traffic ticket, but infinitely less important than armed robbery or worse. Yet they went in like these were the most dangerous criminals on earth.

Forget for a minute the ethnicity and immigration issue. If your daughter or wife came home and said that they were detained, and to go to the bathroom they had to do so in front of an armed man, and the man had to pull down their pants so they could go. Your reaction would be ??????

Read the Fourth Amendment language quoted above and tell me how this isn't unconstitutional? Give me a justification for this breach of our most sacred document on this issue. Imagine that there is a shoplifting epidemic in your town. Imagine if the local constabulary decided the best way to find the thiefs was to encircle the town, and conduct house by house searches and patdowns, detaining you in cuffs while they searched for 4 to 5 hours. This was all done in order to catch the thieves. This is why the Fourth Amendment require one to have evidence of wrongdoing to conduct a search. This is prevented by the Amendment. Yet it is condoned in this case? How is our "Homeland Security" enhanced by such crude violations of the Constitution? And in the end result, less than 4% were found to be working without appropriate documentation. 96% of the folks that went through this horror were legal workers, citizens, or legal resident aliens.

I would hope you would get the distinction between searching out terrorists, and this ridiculous attitude towards folks just trying to earn a living. I keep hearing they are taking American jobs. But the American jobless rate isn't rising. And these packing houses are always hiring.

These things are all a part of the atmosphere of fear being created. And it is a feeble attempt to somehow link the fight against terrorist acts in this country with a group of people doing as generations before have done. And that is to get into this country, work hard, and live the American dream.

Mick