BS: 2008 Beijing Olympics -In the spirit?

Subject: BS: 2008 Beijing Olympics -In the spirit?
From: Stu
Date: 03 Oct 07 - 07:41 AM

The 2008 Olympics will be here before we know it, and the fact the Chinese Government are arguably the single most brutal regime in the world, yet the fact everyone seems to be going along with this sham as if nothing's amiss got me thinking.

In 1936 the world rejoiced in the fact Jesse Owens proved Hitler's ridiculous theories of aryan supremacy were complete bollocks right under the dictators nose. In this age of rampant commercialism and ignoring of the human rights situation in China, do you think the world will rise to the challenge and take the opportunity to tell the Chinese enough is enough or do you think we'll shut up and become complicit in the brutality and abuse of so many innocent people.

I think it's safe to say the Tibetans will not be taking their own team.

Subject: RE: BS: 2008 Beijing Olympics -In the spirit?
From: The PA
Date: 03 Oct 07 - 08:17 AM

I think a few countries may have the balls to stand up and say they are not going, the others will still attend in the hope that this will enable them to finish higher up the medals table.

Personally I think we should not join in until China does something positive about their 'human' rights. I know this is disappointing for our team and would not be a popular decision. Perhaps in such an instance athletes could take part on their own and not representing their country. Then its their choice. Yep I know its more complicated than that.

At the end of the day, I dont think the Chinese government give a flying f*** (sorry) about what the rest of the world think of them, and will turn the situation around so they appear to be the victims in all this.

Subject: RE: BS: 2008 Beijing Olympics -In the spirit?
From: Peace
Date: 03 Oct 07 - 09:50 AM

I hope PA is correct. The Burmese people do not deserve to be forgot in China's rush for world acceptance. In a word, fu#k 'em!

Subject: RE: BS: 2008 Beijing Olympics -In the spirit?
From: Ebbie
Date: 03 Oct 07 - 02:25 PM

Carter took a lot of flak when his administration boycotted the Olympics. It is not likely that his critics of the time will do the same today.

I wish they would.

Subject: RE: BS: 2008 Beijing Olympics -In the spirit?
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 03 Oct 07 - 04:45 PM

Maybe if we all shout loud enough we can get our media to boycott it for us.

Warn the TV companies that there could be a mass turn off if they broadcast the games, and tell the journos to expect a lot of newspapers back on sale or return?

That way the participants could take part, but there would be no lucrative syndications of the show.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: 2008 Beijing Olympics -In the spirit?
From: Peace
Date: 03 Oct 07 - 04:46 PM

Dang, Don, that is bright.

Subject: RE: BS: 2008 Beijing Olympics -In the spirit?
From: freightdawg
Date: 03 Oct 07 - 11:52 PM

A boycot would work, if the following countries were involved:

USA
Canada
England
Russia
Australia
Czech Republic (or its modern name)
Germany
Italy
Romania
N. and S. Korea

...and maybe some others.

Can anyone realistically expect this broad of a coalition to be formed (with all the political ramifications considered)?

I, for one, would like to see it happen, but its not likely.

Freightdawg

Subject: RE: BS: 2008 Beijing Olympics -In the spirit?
From: GUEST,HughM
Date: 04 Oct 07 - 08:16 AM

I was glad to hear Mr. Brown condemn the Burmese authorities for preventing democracy and arresting monks and beating them. Can I assume that Britain will now stop sending one trade delegation after another to the country whose authorities have been preventing democracy and arresting and torturing monks, nuns and just about anybody who voices opposition for years? I won't hold my breath.
I hear the Red Arrows aerobatic display team will not be allowed to appear at the London Olympics, because they are too militaristic and might offend people. I would have thought this was not as militaristic or offensive as invading Tibet and persecuting its inhabitants for 50 years.

Subject: RE: BS: 2008 Beijing Olympics -In the spirit?
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 04 Oct 07 - 10:35 AM

Or, unfortunately, as offensive as invading Iraq, and murdering thousands of civilians, a couple of thousand Americans, and hundreds of Brits based on a pack of lies, but George and Tony did it.

We ain't squeaky clean enough to look down our noses at others.

I wish Gordon was part of the solution, but deep down I believe he's part of the problem, and will be till we get rid of him.

Then we can pontificate on all the other villains.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: 2008 Beijing Olympics -In the spirit?
From: Donuel
Date: 04 Oct 07 - 10:58 AM

The pollution is so bad in Beijing there are conerns for the respiration of the athletes.

cartoon: track starting line with runners on respirators.

Subject: RE: BS: 2008 Beijing Olympics -In the spirit?
From: GUEST,Neil D
Date: 04 Oct 07 - 01:32 PM

An Olympics boycott is never, ever going to happen. There is too much money to be made. I personally never watch the Olympics anymore.
It is just an excuse for disgusting displays of nationalism.
   As to the Chinese government, they have become the Teflon Totalitarians. Nothing they do keeps them from having Favored Trade Status with the USA. Even sending us toys covered in lead paint and dog food and toothpaste containing antifreeze. They did take swift action on the tainted products scandal ... They killed a government minister.
    And does anyone know anything about the mysterious incident where the top legal rep for Mattel grovelled in front of a roomful of Chinese government ministers, apologiziing that a recent recall had been embarassing to China. He said that the recall was because of Mattel's product design, even though in one of the two items it was entirely because of lead paint applied in the Chinese factory. Mattel,Inc. refused all comment on the incident.

Subject: RE: BS: 2008 Beijing Olympics -In the spirit?
From: GUEST
Date: 04 Oct 07 - 06:59 PM

Czech Republic (or its modern name)

That is its modern name. The other half of the old Czechoslovak Republic being, not roo surprisingly, Slovakia.

Subject: RE: BS: 2008 Beijing Olympics -In the spirit?
From: redsnapper
Date: 04 Oct 07 - 07:21 PM

I shall not be watching them. We must each do our bit according to our conscience.

RS

Subject: RE: BS: 2008 Beijing Olympics -In the spirit?
From: GUEST,sinless69uk
Date: 11 Oct 07 - 06:21 PM

I personally will be watching the Games.
People say they want to boycott the Games for high-sounding reasons, but the truth is they just like sacrificing other people's pleasure for their own cause.

Boycotts are really mean-spirited. People who advocate Olympic boycotts should be made to walk round with a sign saying "I am sad".

Subject: RE: BS: 2008 Beijing Olympics -In the spirit?
From: Peace
Date: 11 Oct 07 - 06:23 PM

"Boycotts are really mean-spirited."

Shooting monks is a bit nasty, too.

Subject: RE: BS: 2008 Beijing Olympics -In the spirit?
From: Peace
Date: 11 Oct 07 - 06:33 PM

And also, China supported the 'stern' words issued by the UN Security Council (their first on the situation in Burma) chiefly because it knew damned well people in other countries were considering boycotts.

It's no wonder people like sinless69 post under another name. Too ashamed to post under their own. Please, fu#k off.

Subject: RE: BS: 2008 Beijing Olympics -In the spirit?
From: folk1e
Date: 12 Oct 07 - 02:58 PM

maybe the point would be better made by the athletes wearing propoganda on their vests whilst receiving their medals?
That way the media is happy and the "message" gets broadcast very widely.

Subject: RE: BS: 2008 Beijing Olympics -In the spirit?
From: Peace
Date: 12 Oct 07 - 07:33 PM

Gutless piece of shit you are. Indeed and in name.

Subject: RE: BS: 2008 Beijing Olympics -In the spirit?
From: Peace
Date: 12 Oct 07 - 07:40 PM

BTW, Paul, we know.

Subject: RE: BS: 2008 Beijing Olympics -In the spirit?
From: GUEST,sinless69uk
Date: 13 Oct 07 - 08:34 AM

Watch the Beijing Olympics!

Subject: RE: BS: 2008 Beijing Olympics -In the spirit?
From: EBarnacle
Date: 13 Oct 07 - 05:01 PM

Unless the Olympics get blocked from the TV stations of the nations which boycott, any national boycott will be meaningless.

Subject: RE: BS: 2008 Beijing Olympics -In the spirit?
From: Art Thieme
Date: 14 Oct 07 - 05:43 AM

Many well intentioned folks will be going just to get oriented!

Art

Subject: RE: BS: 2008 Beijing Olympics -In the spirit?
From: Stu
Date: 14 Oct 07 - 06:14 AM

"Many well intentioned folks will be going just to get oriented!"

Good point - no point inspoiling their fun with the awkward truth of torture and oppression. If this were Muslims, Jews or Christians being herded into gulags there'd be another world war. Tibetans and dissidents? Who gives a fuck? Not us - it's the 100 metre hurdles!

Just to get you in the mood, here are some sites to get you acquainted with some of subtler aspects of the Chinese judcial system:

The mainstays of this system are the Chinese gulags, or Laogai:

www.laogai.org

A warning with this one - some of these pictures are not pretty, but then if you think it's OK to watch the beach vollyball you might want to consider the cost paid by those with the guts to stand up to butality and injustice, or those millions of innocent Chinese languising in concentration camps:

Google image search for 'Laogai'

This site has a comprehensive list of the known information of Laogai by provice:

Laogai Research Foundation

Many of these camps are using forced labour to produce products destined for markets in the west.

Subject: RE: BS: 2008 Beijing Olympics -In the spirit?
From: GUEST
Date: 14 Oct 07 - 07:08 AM

OK.
Some serious reasons not to boycott the Olympics.

1) Punishing China for the actions of Burma and Sudan is unfair. Like a teacher punishing the whole class for the actions of a few.

2) A boycott would be divisive. If a seious boycott campaign began, we'd spend all our time arguing about whether to boycott and the human rights issues would be sidelined.

3) The West has very little moral authority now. Invasions of Afganhistan and Iraq, little restraint on Israel for bombing Lebanon etc. A boycott could be seen as another example of Western hypocrisy - and could push some countries closer to China/Russia etc.

4) Deadline politics is bad politics. The boycott campaign effectively wants China to solve Burma/Darfur/Tibet/Taiwan/Falun Gong etc all by 8/8/08.
This is insanely optimistic. Also linking so many campaigns to the Olympics means there is serious risk of the campaigns blowing themselves out once the Games are over.
We need a more considered longer-term approach.

5) Do we really want to antagonise China? - snubbing or humiliating China would not be a good thing for international realations. A boycott would in my view create an angry and resentful China which would not be a good thing for the world.
There are numerous ways to stand up to China but deliberate humiliation is not the way to conduct international politics.

6) This could be seen as a snub to the Chinese people. I'm sure some will say that millions of Chinese are against the Games. They are probably related to the thousands of Iraqis who were going to cheer the Americans going into Baghdad.
I'm sure most Chinese want their Games to be the best ever. Snubbing them could make them rally behind their government and support a more beligerent post-Olympic China.

7) Human rights in China are a problem as stigweard points out but they were also a problem when the Women's Soccer World Cup was held there, also the Formula 1 Grand Prix, the Beijing tennis etc.
Small, regular events like these do more to legitimise China than a single event like the Olympics. This proves that the boycott is merely opportunist.

8) The Olympics will be propaganda for China. Nonsense.
Agreed, the Games put China in the spotlight, so counter propaganda is being used everyday against China. By the time Beijing 2008 comes around, the world will know what bastards the Chinese government are. Why spoil it by having a boycott.

9) I still believe the Olympics can be a force for good. Olympic solidarity gives money to poor countries to develop sport to attempt to level the playing field. A successful Olympics may help in the opening up of China. Especially after China's pre-Olympic paranoia has gone. I say may because nothing is certain.

10) Finally, the athletes,. It does seem very unfair that Soccer players, tennis players, motor racing drivers are able to pursue their lucrative jobs unaffected by boycotts, buit the little guys like archers, rowers, judo players etc for whom the Olympics is their only taste of the big time lose out.
Boycotts hurt the little guys in sport and leave the rich unaffected.

Subject: RE: BS: 2008 Beijing Olympics -In the spirit?
From: GUEST,sinless69uk
Date: 14 Oct 07 - 07:09 AM

By the way the last post was mine.

Subject: RE: BS: 2008 Beijing Olympics -In the spirit?
From: Jack Campin
Date: 14 Oct 07 - 07:09 AM

And the other major country with a prison-labour economy lkarge enough to be economically significant is the US. Of course they're not going to make waves when China does the same.

Nor is a country founded on genocidal expropriation goign to complain when China (or Israel, or Indonesia, or Morocco) does the same.

Subject: RE: BS: 2008 Beijing Olympics -In the spirit?
From: Stu
Date: 15 Oct 07 - 04:48 AM

1) Punishing China for the actions of Burma and Sudan is unfair. Like a teacher punishing the whole class for the actions of a few.

Not really - China is protecting it's interests in these regions by backing oppressive regimes much like it's own, once more to the cost of innocent people. Don't forget the role Tiawan is going to play at some part in the future. If we simply let China do as it wishes anywhere in the world we are creating an even bigger problem for future generations to sort out.

2) A boycott would be divisive. If a seious boycott campaign began, we'd spend all our time arguing about whether to boycott and the human rights issues would be sidelined.

People will of course debate these matters, but not doing something because not everybody agrees is a poor excuse. Thank god the US Civil Rights movement etc did't think like that.

3) The West has very little moral authority now. Invasions of Afganhistan and Iraq, little restraint on Israel for bombing Lebanon etc. A boycott could be seen as another example of Western hypocrisy - and could push some countries closer to China/Russia etc.

Very true, but thats still not an excuse for complacency - if you're willing to sit back and let this regime systematically abuse the human rights of millions, it means you agree.

4) Deadline politics is bad politics. The boycott campaign effectively wants China to solve Burma/Darfur/Tibet/Taiwan/Falun Gong etc all by 8/8/08.
This is insanely optimistic. Also linking so many campaigns to the Olympics means there is serious risk of the campaigns blowing themselves out once the Games are over.
We need a more considered longer-term approach.

In the case of Tibet, we've had a long-term approach of complete capitulation to the Chinese for years - the first warnings that B.lair wasn't all he was cracked up to be was when he effectively stopped peaceful demostrations against the Chinese leader when he vistyed the UK in the late 90's. There is no chance of the problem being resolved before the Olympics and nobody in their right mind thinks there is.

5) Do we really want to antagonise China? - snubbing or humiliating China would not be a good thing for international realations. A boycott would in my view create an angry and resentful China which would not be a good thing for the world.
There are numerous ways to stand up to China but deliberate humiliation is not the way to conduct international politics.

This attitude is so misguided as to be laughable. A China which feels it can do what it wants without condemnation is not a good thing for the world. Are you really suggesting we ignore human rights abuses? Would you have ignored Hitler?

6) This could be seen as a snub to the Chinese people. I'm sure some will say that millions of Chinese are against the Games. They are probably related to the thousands of Iraqis who were going to cheer the Americans going into Baghdad.
I'm sure most Chinese want their Games to be the best ever. Snubbing them could make them rally behind their government and support a more beligerent post-Olympic China.

Apart from the increasingly-westernised cities of the east coast if the country, most of the nation will have far more pressing matters that a sports competition to worry about. Your insinuation that Chinese protesting against the games are somehow deluded about their position is ignorant at best and deeply insulting to people who live in fear in an oppressive state without even the most basic freedoms we take for granted.

7) Human rights in China are a problem as stigweard points out but they were also a problem when the Women's Soccer World Cup was held there, also the Formula 1 Grand Prix, the Beijing tennis etc.
Small, regular events like these do more to legitimise China than a single event like the Olympics. This proves that the boycott is merely opportunist.

Opportunist? How? To what end? You're right about the other sporting events, but I'm not in favour of shutting China off from the outside world, that would be counterproductive. The Olympics is not some specialist sporting event, but one seen by millions across the globe - what sort of people would we be if we ignore these issues and captiulate without a word of protest to the oppressor?

8) The Olympics will be propaganda for China. Nonsense.
Agreed, the Games put China in the spotlight, so counter propaganda is being used everyday against China. By the time Beijing 2008 comes around, the world will know what bastards the Chinese government are. Why spoil it by having a boycott.

True - why ruin anyone's fun by pointing out something as nasty as torture and summary executions? Forced labour can be tool for good! Ethnic cleansing and the resettlement of Han chinese as a tool for social remodelling - woo-hoo!

9) I still believe the Olympics can be a force for good. Olympic solidarity gives money to poor countries to develop sport to attempt to level the playing field. A successful Olympics may help in the opening up of China. Especially after China's pre-Olympic paranoia has gone. I say may because nothing is certain.

Watch this space - economic and political pressure is the way to open up China, this will me a propagandists dream come true if nobody questions the actions of the Chinese Leadership. There are long-reaching global implications to the way the world deals with China, and the Olympics can provide an opportunity for the world to let China know we won't let brutal, oppressive and belligerent regimes do as they wish without consequence.

10) Finally, the athletes,. It does seem very unfair that Soccer players, tennis players, motor racing drivers are able to pursue their lucrative jobs unaffected by boycotts, buit the little guys like archers, rowers, judo players etc for whom the Olympics is their only taste of the big time lose out.
Boycotts hurt the little guys in sport and leave the rich unaffected.

Did you look at the images I posted a link to on Google in an earlier post? One of them is of a man being executed by a red guard by throttling - with his bare hands. This isn't about sport - in my opinion the decision to award China the olympics with preconditions was outrageous and these athletes have been let down by the IOC, to suggest people advocating a boycott are spoiling people's fun should have a long hard look at those images, and then see if they can't gain a bit of perspective. As for affecting the little guys and leaving the rich unaffected, that's capitalism for you.

Subject: RE: BS: 2008 Beijing Olympics -In the spirit?
From: GUEST,sinless69uk
Date: 15 Oct 07 - 11:01 AM

Stigweard.

Your argument basically boils down to "we've tried everything else so a boycott must be a good idea".
You brought in the civil rights movement but may I point out, Tommie Smith and John Carlos protested at the Games but did not boycott them.
Your argument effectively said "you must either support a boycott or you don't care about human rights" - like either you support the invasion of Iraq or you support Saddam Hussain.

You have also implied that not supporting a boycott means we can't condemn China - another "he who is not with me is against me argument".
Your argument is full of logical fallacies.

You brought in Hitler - the last refuge of the desperate.

You also stated that shutting off China from the outside world would be counterproductive - so you admit some actions against China would be counterproductive? In my view an Olympic boycott would be counterproductive. We are both against counterproductive actions against China - so there isn't much difference between us.

Therefore I believe you should apologise for implying that I don't care about human rights, I merely take the opposite position from you on a single issue.

Subject: RE: BS: 2008 Beijing Olympics -In the spirit?
From: Peace
Date: 15 Oct 07 - 11:03 AM

Don't argue with the troll.

Subject: RE: BS: 2008 Beijing Olympics -In the spirit?
From: GUEST,sinless69uk
Date: 15 Oct 07 - 11:32 AM

"Don't argue with the troll".

Great standard of debate here. Raise reasonable points which disagree with the "consensus" and you get that.

Note: "Olympic Dream for Darfur" does not advocate a boycott. Do they not care about human rights either?

Support the Olympic movement - no to the boycotters!

Subject: RE: BS: 2008 Beijing Olympics -In the spirit?
From: Stu
Date: 15 Oct 07 - 11:49 AM

"Your argument basically boils down to "we've tried everything else so a boycott must be a good idea".

Perhaps you need to re-read what I've written and take some time to digest my arguments fully before coming out with this bilge. I'm arguing in favour of a boycott, not suggesting it's the only way to make the Chinese leadership come to their senses.

"You brought in Hitler - the last refuge of the desperate."

Is this a joke? How about the 6 million innocents who died because of this maniac - you think it's desperate to invoke the spectre of the Holocaust in an attempt to stop it happening again? Tell me why remembering this abomination is wrong. Watch Shoah. Look at the faces opf the people as they tell their stories - stories in our cosy closeted world we struggle to understand, so unimaginable is the horror these people experienced - it's within living memory. There are plenty in Tibet and China who will readily identify with them though even if it's beyond the wit of many in the rest of the world.

"Therefore I believe you should apologise for implying that I don't care about human rights, I merely take the opposite position from you on a single issue."

Apologise for some perceived slur? I think not. I'm implying that ignoring these issues is tantamount to complicity in the systematic oppression of an entire nation - this isn't a personal jibe at you - it's an observation of our collective responsibility as a society.

Subject: RE: BS: 2008 Beijing Olympics -In the spirit?
From: Peace
Date: 15 Oct 07 - 11:51 AM

"Great standard of debate here. Raise reasonable points which disagree with the "consensus" and you get that."

YOU get that because you don't have the decency to post under your regular name. It's that simple.

Subject: RE: BS: 2008 Beijing Olympics -In the spirit?
From: GUEST,sinless69uk
Date: 15 Oct 07 - 12:27 PM

Subject: RE: BS: 2008 Beijing Olympics -In the spirit?
From: Stu
Date: 15 Oct 07 - 12:48 PM

Speak up!

Subject: RE: BS: 2008 Beijing Olympics -In the spirit?
From: GUEST,sinless69uk
Date: 15 Oct 07 - 12:56 PM

It wasn't working!

When you get short of an argument you throw in stuff about torture and human rights. That should not be used in place of rational argument. You are trying to browbeat me by talking about torture, Tibet, Darfur and probably the fall of Carthage.
I know that's going on but I'm trying to debate whether a boycott is a good idea.

You did try to imply that I was not concerned about human rights because I didn't support a boycott. However, I don't expect to get one.

Will you promise to use rational discussion instead of using pictures of abuse to browbeat people into accepting your logic?

Subject: RE: BS: 2008 Beijing Olympics -In the spirit?
From: Stu
Date: 15 Oct 07 - 01:53 PM

Go and read the first post of this thread and then come back here.

Read it? Got it?

"When you get short of an argument you throw in stuff about torture and human rights."

This is the argument.

The very point of me starting this discussion was the brutality of the Chinese regime and the possiblity of the rest of the world rising out of the moral abyss it's leaders have steered us into and start putting things right. If we don't with China, if we can't see beyond our greed and fear, then any semblance of moral integrity will truly have vanished from modern political and economic life.

"Will you promise to use rational discussion instead of using pictures of abuse to browbeat people into accepting your logic?"

Don't like the pictures? Neither do I, and I thought long and hard about posting that link. These aren't an attempt to browbeat you or anyone else - they and the sites they link to are illustrating the systematic abuse of human beings in a country we freely trade with and are about to hold the single most important sporting event humankind has been able to come up with.

I've replied individually to all the points you've raised in your earlier post - not one of these have you countered with a reply addressing the argument. Complaining about the central tenet of the thread is not a rational debating tactic.

Subject: RE: BS: 2008 Beijing Olympics -In the spirit?
From: Peace
Date: 15 Oct 07 - 02:15 PM

"In preparing for the Olympics showcase, China has evicted by force more than 1 million residents of Beijing, destroying the homes of more than 350,000 families to make the city more attractive."

From the LATimes

Subject: RE: BS: 2008 Beijing Olympics -In the spirit?
From: GUEST,sinless69uk
Date: 15 Oct 07 - 05:45 PM

I don't object to you using the pictures per se. However, you used them as a means of moral blackmail as if to say "There you are, that proves we should boycott the Olympics". It is this I object to.

Given that you have stated that "shutting off China from the outside world" would be counterproductive why can you not respectr my position that an Olympic boycott would be counterproductive?

Rather than admit that we have a slight difference of opinion, you have to present me as an apologist for tyranny and then through a few links to atrocities to bolster your argument.

No to Communism! No to Olympic boycotts!

---

"The world can show China that brutal opressive belligerent regimes can't do as they wish without consequence".
What consequence? A few athletes don't turn up to China's Olympic party?

Not like a nuclear missile hitting Beijing is it? If that's all we've got then the Communists will be in power for a very long time.

It won't hurt China one iota, but the Chinese Communist Party will remember the slight against them and people will pay.

Subject: RE: BS: 2008 Beijing Olympics -In the spirit?
From: Peace
Date: 15 Oct 07 - 06:07 PM

So let the Chinese Communist Party remember.

Subject: RE: BS: 2008 Beijing Olympics -In the spirit?
From: Sandy Mc Lean
Date: 15 Oct 07 - 09:15 PM

Remember this maybe:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tiananmen_Square_protests_of_1989

Subject: RE: BS: 2008 Beijing Olympics -In the spirit?
From: Sandy Mc Lean
Date: 15 Oct 07 - 09:23 PM

CHINA
(Words and Music by Joan Baez)

In the month of May, in the glory of the day
Came the descendants of a hundred flowers
And their fight it did begin with the aging Mandarin
And they fought with an extraordinary power
Everyone was smiling, their hearts were one
In Tiananmen Square

But it seems that the Spring this year in Beijing
Came just before the Fall
There was no summer at all
In Tiananmen Square
China... China

There's peace in the emerald fields, there's mist upon the lakes
But something is afoot in the People's Hall
The spirit of Chu Ping is alive in young Chai Ling
And the Emperor has his back against the wall
Black sun rising over Tiananmen Square
Over Tiananmen Square

But it seems that the Spring this year in Beijing
Came just before the Fall
There was no summer at all
In Tiananmen Square
China... China

In the month of June, in the darkness of the moon
Went the descendants of a hundred flowers
And time may never tell how many of them fell
Like the petals of a rose in some satanic shower
Everyone was weeping in all of China
And Tiananmen Square

But it seems that the Spring this year in Beijing
Came just before the Fall
There was no summer at all
In Tiananmen Square
China... China

And even the moon on the fourth day of June
Hid her face and did not see
Black sun rising over Tiananmen Square

And Wang Wei Lin, you remember him
All alone he stood before the tanks
A shadow of forgotten ancestors in Tiananmen Square

And my blue-eyed son, you had no one
You could call a hero of your age
You have the rainbow warriors of Tiananmen Square, singing
China Shall Be Free
China Shall Be Free
China Shall Be Free

© 1989 Gabriel Earl Music (ASCAP)

Subject: RE: BS: 2008 Beijing Olympics -In the spirit?
From: Peace
Date: 15 Oct 07 - 09:33 PM

I wonder if the Communist Party ever heard it. And if so, do they remember?

Subject: RE: BS: 2008 Beijing Olympics -In the spirit?
From: Stu
Date: 16 Oct 07 - 04:38 AM

"I don't object to you using the pictures per se. However, you used them as a means of moral blackmail as if to say "There you are, that proves we should boycott the Olympics". It is this I object to."

Best not put words into my mouth - how can you 'prove' we must boycott the olympics? We certainly do have a difference of opinion on this subject. Moral blackmail? Moral integrity is all I'm interested in, I'm not blackmailing you but I am trying to debate with you and I will support my argument as I see fit. But, back to the original discussion . .

Communisim exists only in name in China. It has become a consumer society, with an increrasingly free market economy and the system bears no relation to the ideals it purports to represent. This is not Communism as defined my Marx and Engels, which is concerened with the establishment of a society based on equality and communal effort for the greater good without profit and for the benefit of everyone within that society. So forget Communism in China - it simply doesn't exist in any meaningful form.

Boycotting the Olympics would not be counterproductive because it will be a way of highlighting to the world the brutalities of the Chinese regime. The world will focus on the olympics and if the major players don't go every time a race is held with them in there will be a reminder of the atrocities China continues to commit.

As Peace says, with an Olympic boycott in place The Chinese leadership will certainly be reminded the world is still watching and hasn't forgotten their outrages - a fact they need to remember.

Even as I sit here typing this news China is demand Bush cancels a meeting with HH The Dalai Lama. If Bush were to cancel (which I deeply hope he won't) this meeting then consider the last vestiges of hope for Tibet gone. I suspect hope for Tibet is gone actually - we've all sat on our hands to long for there to be a happy ending for the people of that country.

Tashi Delek

Subject: RE: BS: 2008 Beijing Olympics -In the spirit?
From: GUEST,Tunesmith
Date: 16 Oct 07 - 04:43 AM

The modern Olympics have been hijacked by countries. The original intention was to have a bunch of individuals from all over the world competing against each other. This national flag waving thing is unhealthy and stupid.

Subject: RE: BS: 2008 Beijing Olympics -In the spirit?
From: GUEST,sinless69uk
Date: 16 Oct 07 - 06:36 AM

The Olympics are not really all that nationalistic.
Nationalism is far more significant at football/rugby world cups.

The games are INTERNATIONAL.

Support the Beijing Olympics!

Subject: RE: BS: 2008 Beijing Olympics -In the spirit?
From: Peace
Date: 16 Oct 07 - 09:19 AM

Nope!

Subject: RE: BS: 2008 Beijing Olympics -In the spirit?
From: Stu
Date: 16 Oct 07 - 11:30 AM

Support the Beijing Olympics!

. . .unlike this lot who are ruining the whole thing by talking about the mass relocation of Tibetans, or even this chap who has the nerve to pipe up about the brutal suppression of those pesky Falun Gong nutters (anyone for a kidney?).

Don't let them spoil our viewing of this wonderful spectacle - the pinnacle of human sporting endeavour (especially amongst onanistic westerners).

Support the Beijing Olympics!

Subject: RE: BS: 2008 Beijing Olympics -In the spirit?
From: Peace
Date: 16 Oct 07 - 11:31 AM

Support nuts. Wear a cup!

Subject: RE: BS: 2008 Beijing Olympics -In the spirit?
From: GUEST,sinless69uk
Date: 16 Oct 07 - 02:01 PM

Some Aussie guy says something and that's proof is it?
You then throw in something about human rights for want of an argument.

How many times must I say this?

LINKS TO ATROCITIES ETC MERELY SHOW THAT CHINA IS A COUNTRY THAT VIOLATES HUMAN RIGHTS IT ISN'T A CLINCHING ARGUMENT FOR A BOYCOTT.

Please give a reasoned argument for once as to why we should boycott the Games in your own words, without quoting or linking to another website and without implying that any deviation from your position is to be pro-China.

Can you do that?

Subject: RE: BS: 2008 Beijing Olympics -In the spirit?
From: Peace
Date: 16 Oct 07 - 02:11 PM

Web dissent on the rise in China
By Michael Bristow
BBC News, Beijing


Zeng Jinyan does not look like a dissident. She is small, heavily pregnant and has a liking for colourful dresses.

Zeng Jinyan came to prominence after her husband was detained

But the Chinese security operatives who permanently watch the apartment she shares with her husband are an indicator of just how influential she has become.

The 24-year-old uses the internet to pass on information to the outside world about protests, injustices and underground campaigns in China.

She is just one of tens of thousands of ordinary Chinese people who are now using the internet to express themselves in ways that were previously impossible.

The article.

Subject: RE: BS: 2008 Beijing Olympics -In the spirit?
From: Joe Offer
Date: 16 Oct 07 - 02:22 PM

We should boycott the China Olympics because when be boycotted the Moscow Olympics for nobody remembers what reason, it didn't work very well. Maybe if we boycott another Olympics, our boycott will work better this time and maybe people will remember why we're boycotting.
Or not.

-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS: 2008 Beijing Olympics -In the spirit?
From: Stu
Date: 17 Oct 07 - 06:01 AM

sinless69uk, you really need to read the posts I am making. Here, copied from a post I wrote earlier which you can't have read is, in my own words, my reason for boycotting the olympics:

Boycotting the Olympics would not be counterproductive because it will be a way of highlighting to the world the brutalities of the Chinese regime. The world will focus on the olympics and if the major players don't go every time a race is held with them in there will be a reminder of the atrocities China continues to commit.

"LINKS TO ATROCITIES ETC MERELY SHOW THAT CHINA IS A COUNTRY THAT VIOLATES HUMAN RIGHTS IT ISN'T A CLINCHING ARGUMENT FOR A BOYCOTT."

No need to shout - I believe China's violation of human rights is justification for a boycott. Why not use the publicity generated to highlight these problems.

"We should boycott the China Olympics because when be boycotted the Moscow Olympics for nobody remembers what reason, it didn't work very well. Maybe if we boycott another Olympics, our boycott will work better this time and maybe people will remember why we're boycotting."

It worked at the time - the olympics didn't have some of the top sportsmen present, and the boycott certainly did highlight the world's opposition to the invasion of Afghanistan.

Subject: RE: BS: 2008 Beijing Olympics -In the spirit?
From: EBarnacle
Date: 17 Oct 07 - 09:23 AM

Face it, Bush and company are not likely to boycott the Olympics over a moral issue. Now, if the athletes refused to play at the last minute [after arriving at Beijing]and announced that it was due to Chinese human rights policies, that might get some attention. It would also make it more difficult to field a team of scabs.

Subject: RE: BS: 2008 Beijing Olympics -In the spirit?
From: Stu
Date: 17 Oct 07 - 10:32 AM

I suppose at least Bush did meet with HH The Dalai Lama, even if his prime motivation was to piss the Chinese off during their five-yearly party conference and make it look he was doing more that he is to help the Tibetans.

It would be remarkable if he suddenly got a pang of conscience somewhere in the recesses of his wart for a brain and woke up to the fact we're all going to be speaking Mandarin in a few years time and now might be a good time to stand up for the oppressed millions in China before we join them.

Tiawan - now there's another problem . . .

Subject: RE: BS: 2008 Beijing Olympics -In the spirit?
From: GUEST,Tunesmith
Date: 18 Oct 07 - 03:20 AM

Boycotting the Olympics would be stupid! If Chinese athletes are allowed to compete in international athletic events, then China should be allowed to host the Olympics. The boycott in 1980 lead to the counter boycott in 1984 ( which took a lot of the shine of the Los Angeles games). London is hosting the 2012 games, will that mean that half the world will boycott those games because of Britain's involvement in Iraq?

Subject: RE: BS: 2008 Beijing Olympics -In the spirit?
From: GUEST,stigweard on the road
Date: 18 Oct 07 - 04:50 AM

"will that mean that half the world will boycott those games because of Britain's involvement in Iraq?"

Legitimate protest is to be tolerated whether you agree with it or not. Given the circumstances we went to war with Iraq, the use of cluster munitions and the large number of civilian deaths cause, let before we even start on the human rights at Abu Ghraib etc, perhaps a boycott of London isn't such an unreasonable idea from an Arab point of view.

Subject: RE: BS: 2008 Beijing Olympics -In the spirit?
From: GUEST,sinless69uk
Date: 18 Oct 07 - 06:05 AM

The boycott of Moscow was a failure.

"Boycotting the Olympics would highlight the brutalities of the Chinese regime".

Anyone who knows about international politics knows that already. Those who don't know don't care. Their grasshopper minds will move on to American Idol or the latest dancing show.

Boycotting the Olympics will move us closer to as new Cold War. Is that what you really want?

The link to the beach volleyball showed what you really think. Juxtaposing trivial pleasures with China's brutality shows that stopping (other people's) pleasure is essential to your campaign.
If people didn't enjoy the Gamed you wouldn't be half as keen to atack them.

Subject: RE: BS: 2008 Beijing Olympics -In the spirit?
From: Stu
Date: 18 Oct 07 - 08:31 AM

"Those who don't know don't care."

Educate, educate, educate. It's imperative these issues are kept in the awareness of the world citizenry, and in the 21st Century that means using the media, which means generating publicity, which means using events which are widely watched. You can't make everyone care that's true, but I'm all for throwing my pebble at the wall. If enough people throw pebbles, down the wall will come.

"Juxtaposing trivial pleasures with China's brutality shows that stopping (other people's) pleasure is essential to your campaign."

I'm not attacking the games (they should never have been awarded to China in the first place) I'm not some miserly killjoy out to poo-poo people's fun. I personally enjoy the games and want to see these athletes competeing, but not at the expense of the millions of innocent people. Do yourself an favour and do some googling on how the Chinese leadership have approached the building of the stadia required for the competitions - forced movement of entire communities. Is that a price worth paying for entertainment? Would you pay it? Your family?

Beach vollyball sums up what a load of crap the modern olympics will become if we keep letting marketing men run it - a triumph of presentation over content. If they were all wearing long dresses I would understand, but I suppose attracting grasshopper minds is the main aim these days.

What are the alternatives then? Accept the oppression of these people, the destruction of Tibet and the struggle of ordinary Chinese people for freedom as a hopeless cause and walk away? Try to make a fast buck in China whilst the going's good?

"Boycotting the Olympics will move us closer to as new Cold War. Is that what you really want?"

Never - there's far many pockets to be lined and fortunes to be made in China for any serious disagreements to ecalte to a new cold war. Did you read the press reports of HH The Dalai Lama's meeting with Bush? The Chinese will whinge on a bit, but they know the world thinks they're in the wrong and largely ignores the issue. The Taiwanese desire for independence is far more likely to spark a confrontation than an Olympic boycott - and that may happen sooner that you think.

Subject: RE: BS: 2008 Beijing Olympics -In the spirit?
From: GUEST,Tunesmith
Date: 18 Oct 07 - 08:42 AM

If you want to hurt the Chinese, stop buying anything made there! Don't ask athletes to sacrifice their dreams. And, of course, a worldwide ban of goods made in/from China would hit them where it really hurts! BUT, it would hit the West too, as prices would rise.

Subject: RE: BS: 2008 Beijing Olympics -In the spirit?
From: Peace
Date: 18 Oct 07 - 10:10 AM

That's all nice rhetoric. But it's wrong.

Subject: RE: BS: 2008 Beijing Olympics -In the spirit?
From: Stu
Date: 18 Oct 07 - 11:11 AM

I'm thinking we're being wound up by these two GUESTs Peace - who in their right mind would put sport and cash before basic human rights?

Throw them pebbles!

Subject: RE: BS: 2008 Beijing Olympics -In the spirit?
From: Peace
Date: 18 Oct 07 - 11:17 AM

I'm with you, buddy.

Subject: RE: BS: 2008 Beijing Olympics -In the spirit?
From: Peace
Date: 18 Oct 07 - 11:25 AM

That aside, I agree with whoever said that a boycott of trade goods from China would wake 'em up a bit. But that doesn't take away the need for China to be publickly embarrassed on the world stage. Tell me, has anyone heard anymore about the poisoned dog and cat food that was shipped to the US and Canada? We owe them NOTHING.

Subject: RE: BS: 2008 Beijing Olympics -In the spirit?
From: GUEST,sinless69uk
Date: 18 Oct 07 - 11:35 AM

Actually, on a non-confrontational note it's hard to see USA and Britain boycotting.

Bush is keen to stay on good terms with China to help him deal with N. Korea and Iran.

Burma/Tibet are not real issues in Britain - the Right sees the European Union as the greatest source of evil and the Left feels the same about America. China doesn't really feature on their radar.

Plus GB has London 2012 coming up and US has a Chicago bid for 2016.

I'm not sure how many countries would actually support this idea.

Subject: RE: BS: 2008 Beijing Olympics -In the spirit?
From: Peace
Date: 18 Oct 07 - 11:41 AM

I can't see Canada boycotting, either, sinless. No balls to speak of in Ottawa.

Subject: RE: BS: 2008 Beijing Olympics -In the spirit?
From: GUEST,Tunesmith
Date: 18 Oct 07 - 12:35 PM

What did the boycott of Moscow achieve? Nothing positive - is the answer.

Subject: RE: BS: 2008 Beijing Olympics -In the spirit?
From: Stu
Date: 18 Oct 07 - 01:12 PM

"Actually, on a non-confrontational note it's hard to see USA and Britain boycotting."

On that we do agree - in all honesty there's little or no chance of a boycott unless the Taiwan situation escalates beyond all control and this is not beyond the bounds of possibility as Taiwan will be holding a referendum regardin Tiawan's entry to the UN (a step widely seen as the precursor to a declaration if independence), a move which will anger China and fears are this could provoke the PRC into military confrontation, as China has said it will retake the island by force if it attempt to secede from the Republic.

Still, the world seeks to placate China instead of deal head-on with the problems it is creating worldwide (try googling for Chinese construction projects in Africa -not good news again), a case of everyone burying their heads in the sand. Which is fine, but it leaves their arses sticking up in the air inviting a mighty big kick from you-know-who.

Subject: RE: BS: 2008 Beijing Olympics -In the spirit?
From: Donuel
Date: 18 Oct 07 - 01:45 PM

Who wants to join me in Beijing as part of the honorary Tibitan Team?

Subject: RE: BS: 2008 Beijing Olympics -In the spirit?
From: bankley
Date: 18 Oct 07 - 01:45 PM

"Neither Americans nor the representatives of other countries can take part in the Games in Nazi Germany without, at least, acquiescing in the contempt of the Nazis for fairplay and their sordid exploitation of the Games"... Ernest Lee Janche, American member of the IOC who took a strong public stand against the Berlin Games and was subsequently expelled from the IOC in 1936 and replaced by Avery Brundage. Mr. Janche is the only member in the 100 history of the IOC to be expelled....

so host countries and names change but bullshit still smells the same

Subject: RE: BS: 2008 Beijing Olympics -In the spirit?
From: GUEST,Tunesmith
Date: 18 Oct 07 - 04:07 PM

BUT, BUT, BUT !!!! What are the Berlin Games best remembered for? Jesse Owens showing/proving that Hitler's Ayrian superioty beliefs were stupid.

Subject: RE: BS: 2008 Beijing Olympics -In the spirit?
From: bankley
Date: 18 Oct 07 - 04:36 PM

Adolf wouldn't shake hands with Jesse...., neither would Jim Crow

Subject: RE: BS: 2008 Beijing Olympics -In the spirit?
From: Sandy Mc Lean
Date: 19 Oct 07 - 12:57 AM

For too long the Olympics have been tainted by corrupt selection committees accused of taking bribes and athletes taking dope. They are driven by $$$ and have long ago lost any sense of purpose.
That being said they could aspire to a higher level by taking a stand about human rights in China, but it won't happen. Greed and money continue to rule!
We can all boycott the games by switching off the TV and refusing to buy products from game sponsors.

Subject: RE: BS: 2008 Beijing Olympics -In the spirit?
From: Stu
Date: 19 Oct 07 - 03:59 AM

Ulitimately it's what I'll do. I'm not sure what drove the IOC to give the games to China - I'll have a dig around and see if I can come up with anything. I suspect someone got their palms greased somewhere.

Subject: RE: BS: 2008 Beijing Olympics -In the spirit?
From: GUEST,sinless69uk
Date: 19 Oct 07 - 07:17 AM

I will watch the Olympics 12 hrs per day.

Love that sport!

Subject: RE: BS: 2008 Beijing Olympics -In the spirit?
From: bankley
Date: 19 Oct 07 - 08:18 AM

Then again, consider the ensuing health benefits.... after the 2008 Games there will be a surplus of young, high quality organs available for transplants... 'donated' by many of the Chinese athletes would didn't win medals.....

Subject: RE: BS: 2008 Beijing Olympics -In the spirit?
From: EBarnacle
Date: 19 Oct 07 - 09:42 AM

Read "The World is Flat," by Thomas Friedman. He makes a fairly persuasive case that, if we were to stop buying Chinese, others would fill the gap. The only answer is to work at making the Chinese Proletariat unhappy with the current regime. Wasn't it Mao who said that "Power comes from the end of a gun?"

Subject: RE: BS: 2008 Beijing Olympics -In the spirit?
From: Peace
Date: 19 Oct 07 - 09:57 AM

Mao may have said that. He was quite busy screwing prepubescent girls.

Subject: RE: BS: 2008 Beijing Olympics -In the spirit?
From: Stu
Date: 19 Oct 07 - 09:59 AM

Strange how Mao is venerated as some sort of great reformist, when in fact he had more in common with Hitler and Stalin than Marx and Engels, or even Lenin. Of course this is largely due to propaganda, but even so you sense he's regarded as a great leader in the world at large.

Mind you, you can't deny his influence on the 20th Century was profound and he shaped modern China, although the current leaders are his disciples only in name, rather than action.

These figures show exactly http://users.erols.com/mwhite28/warstat1.htm#Mao The fact is the system that caused these deaths is still very much in place, and working efficiently.

Subject: RE: BS: 2008 Beijing Olympics -In the spirit?
From: GUEST,Tunesmith
Date: 19 Oct 07 - 10:36 AM

Nearly everybody in the West is benefitting from cheap goods, parts etc from China. Your standard of living would drop dramatically if those goods had to be obtained from elsewhere. Don't ask others to sacrifice there dreams - and years of training! It's easy to sit on your backside and preach. Your first step should be to get out there and lobby for a trade ban with China.

Subject: RE: BS: 2008 Beijing Olympics -In the spirit?
From: GUEST,sinless69uk
Date: 19 Oct 07 - 10:49 AM

The Chinese Government has raised 400m people out of poverty with its policies - that's 400m who have had their human rights improved.

China has not attacked other countries and has pursued the enlightened policy of non-intervention in other countries' affairs.

They also do not want to make political capital out of the Olympics - just showcase the best that China has to offer.
Surely it would be an honour to compete against such enlightened people?

OK, that's going over that top but there is a grain of truth in what I'm saying.

Subject: RE: BS: 2008 Beijing Olympics -In the spirit?
From: Peace
Date: 19 Oct 07 - 10:58 AM

There is also a grain of rice in China. It's finding that specific grain . . . .

Subject: RE: BS: 2008 Beijing Olympics -In the spirit?
From: Stu
Date: 19 Oct 07 - 11:23 AM

"It's easy to sit on your backside and preach"

I have recently refused a lucrative business offer to broker goods from a supplier who sources from China. Financing in place, logistics fully in place, factories ready to visit and people on the ground over there - the full set up, the works. I could have made a pile of cash from this but in the end have declined as I will not put money in the pocket of a brutal regime. I do wonder whether I've made a mistake as we are struggling at the moment and this was an opportunity that was difficult to resist, but in the end I had to go with my gut feeling. I want to sleep at night.

Several years ago I looked into Tibetan Buddhism for a period of time, attending classes and receiving teachings from western monks. This led to a wider interest in Tibet in general (Tibetan Buddhism is incorporates elements of the indigenous Bo religion of the region, which is one of the reasons it is so distinct), we went to see HH Dalai Lama talk, went to meetings with dissident monks who were returning to Tibet and most touching of all, a talk with HH's sister Jetsun Pema. Pema was part of a delegation sent back to Tibet to assess the state of the country (it took years before the Chinese let the delegation in). Her account, heard first hand of what she found and the oppression these gentle, people are suffering was one of the most moving things I have ever heard in my life. Talking to her afterwards, I was struck by her humility and her lack of hatred towards the Chinese - all these people want is to be able to live their own lives without interference and intimidation. They are not even asking for independence any more - simply to choose their own leader in Tibet.

Who am I asking to sacrifice their dreams? That's a matter for individual conscience, but to make an informed decision you need to be in full possession of the facts, and people can't be arsed to look those facts up anymore for fear of finding things they don't like - just look back at the posts in this thread. I don't understand how you can just ignore this for the sake of an easy life.

"Your standard of living would drop dramatically if those goods had to be obtained from elsewhere."

Not really - someone else would make them. We used to make them fifty years ago. Capitalism doesn't give a shit where stuff comes from - that would be the strength of an economic boycott, and an Olympic one - it would hit them in the pocket.

Subject: RE: BS: 2008 Beijing Olympics -In the spirit?
From: Peace
Date: 19 Oct 07 - 12:01 PM

With deepest respect, well said, Stigweard.

Subject: RE: BS: 2008 Beijing Olympics -In the spirit?
From: Sandy Mc Lean
Date: 19 Oct 07 - 05:05 PM

"China has not attacked other countries and has pursued the enlightened policy of non-intervention in other countries' affairs."

I'm sure that the good people of Tibet are overjoyed to get this news. Does that mean that they are now free of their oppressors?

Subject: RE: BS: 2008 Beijing Olympics -In the spirit?
From: EBarnacle
Date: 19 Oct 07 - 11:12 PM

They are certainly doing their best to slow intervention in Darfur and other countries where they do business.

Subject: RE: BS: 2008 Beijing Olympics -In the spirit?
From: EBarnacle
Date: 20 Oct 07 - 05:11 PM

A friend mentioned today that they also do a lot of business with Myanmar.
Do we see a trend here?

Subject: RE: BS: 2008 Beijing Olympics -In the spirit?
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 20 Oct 07 - 09:19 PM

"The Chinese Government has raised 400m people out of poverty with its policies - that's 400m who have had their human rights improved.

China has not attacked other countries and has pursued the enlightened policy of non-intervention in other countries' affairs.

They also do not want to make political capital out of the Olympics - just showcase the best that China has to offer.
Surely it would be an honour to compete against such enlightened people? GUEST,sinless69uk - PM"


Try telling the South Koreans about the non interfering Chi-Coms. In the Korean War it was Chinese troops that gave the North Koreans the backbone to fight. They interfered in every dispute in the far East for nearly half a century.

Tell me, are you by any chance Chinese?

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: 2008 Beijing Olympics -In the spirit?
From: GUEST,sinless69uk
Date: 21 Oct 07 - 05:33 AM

No, I'm not Chinese, I'm from England.

I seen tyo remember several countries intervening in Korea. Anyway the war was over 50 years ago. It's what's happening now that matters.

I think it's more important at this stage for China to develop its economy than to bring in democracy.

Subject: RE: BS: 2008 Beijing Olympics -In the spirit?
From: EBarnacle
Date: 21 Oct 07 - 01:07 PM

Korea is not at peace until North Korea signs a peace treaty. If you've been following the news, there have been discussions about this specific issue, with South Korea taking the lead in pursuing a peace pact.

Subject: RE: BS: 2008 Beijing Olympics -In the spirit?
From: Stu
Date: 22 Oct 07 - 12:28 PM

"China has not attacked other countries and has pursued the enlightened policy of non-intervention in other countries' affairs."

OK - this is a wind-up. You poor sad tit.

Subject: RE: BS: 2008 Beijing Olympics -In the spirit?
From: GUEST,sinless69uk
Date: 27 Oct 07 - 06:34 AM

The Dalai Lama opposes a boycott.

A mouthpiece of Beijing - the bastard.