Ewan MacColl - any first-hand anecdotes?

Subject: RE: Ewan MacColl - any first-hand anecdotes?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 12 Oct 07 - 07:12 PM

Well of course it was - he was flesh and blood like the reat of us - but onstage he was manliness personified - the great hewer, the hunter for shoals of herring. You can't do that stuff for two hours a night without training. he was an actor for godsake - a great one!
That's why he could do Tam Linn - he had that focus, it was to him his King Lear - a longer soliloquy than Shakespeare would have dared to write..

has that really never occurred to you?

Did you ever see that Not the Nine o'Clock News Sketch - where they pretend to be interviewing Lawrence Olivier. Someone or other is there pretending to be Olivier sitting in very studied attitude with his unlit pipe as a prop.
One of the team asks, do you ever stop acting Sir Laurence?

that was Ewan! with his backward chair instead of a pipe! And credit where its due - he was a damn good act!

well he fooled you apparently.

Subject: RE: Ewan MacColl - any first-hand anecdotes?
From: GUEST,Jim Carroll
Date: 13 Oct 07 - 03:51 AM

Sorry WMD;
I don't think I have ever read such ill informed and pseud psychobabble (about anybody).
The inspiration for the contemporary songs you mentioned came directly from actuality which was recorded from Sam Larner, Jack Elliot and other working men who were interviewed during the making of the Radio Ballads. If you listen to these field recordings (which are accessible at the British Library and Ruskin) you will see the skilful way MacColl has taken the speech patterns and the use of the vernacular of those singers and woven them into the songs. Far from being masculine posturings both were, for me, accurate and sympathetic representations of fishermen and miners.This is what made the songs and The Radio Ballads unique.
Some years ago we recorded a magnificent elderly storyteller named Jack Flannery in County Roscommon. He gave us around a dozen tales the longest of which was two-and-a-half hours, and the shortest about forty-five minutes.
Clare singer Martin Reidy (octogenarian), prided himself on long songs and once said "a song isn't worth singing unless it has a few verses in it". His 'True Lover's Discussion is slightly longer than Tam Lynn - penis substitution, do you think?   
Regarding his sitting back to front on his chair; it was part of the relaxation technique he devised for himself and discussed regularly in the Critics Group. It was never taken up by members of the group because they did not wish to be seen 'worshiping at the shrine of St Ewan' by adopting a technique that was so readily identifiable with him - (for justification of this fear, see 'finger-in-ear epithet).
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Ewan MacColl - any first-hand anecdotes?
From: GUEST,Jim Carroll
Date: 13 Oct 07 - 04:09 AM

PS,
I vaguely remember the Not The Nine-Oclock News sketch, but I recall vividly the Monty Python 'Arthur 'Two-Sheds' Jackson one about the artist being interviewed and failing to discuss his art because of the interviewers insistence on concentrating on his 'Two-Sheds' nickname - wonder what brought that to mind!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Ewan MacColl - any first-hand anecdotes?
From: Folkiedave
Date: 13 Oct 07 - 05:35 AM

As Jim says listen to the Sam Larner recording (can't lay my hands on it - so I can't quote chapter and verse but it is on CD) and you can virtually hear Sam Larner speaking the "Shoals of Herring" - "a shimmer we calls it, a shimmer of hearing".........

You can't do that stuff without training? So what training have all the others who came up through the revival had? Mike Waterson sang Tam Lin without any theatrical training. Never (as far as I know) went to Critics' Groups meetings. Ewan never even liked the Watersons at first thinking they were a copy of the Coppers. How wrong can you be. Now they appear on Peggy's tours of the UK. And will be there on Sunday at the next Shepley Spring Festival (blatant plug).

He was practised (he and Peggy were the first singers I ever saw to do scales before a performance) and he often sang "Highland Muster Roll" as a way of getting his voice going at the start of a performance; he was thoroughly professional; but I met him and saw his performances a number of times and he never struck me as an "act" no more than any other folk singer was anyway.

Never occurred to me? Nope I was busy listening to him perform.

Subject: RE: Ewan MacColl - any first-hand anecdotes?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 13 Oct 07 - 05:58 AM

well I suppose it depends on how you view these other singers.

i was a fan of Ewan, not some of the others you mention (I can see they float the boats of all the traddies - but just lets not go there) - and yes I think it does require a thoughtful studied approach.

psychobabble - i don't think so. I asked myself where he came from and how he got to where he ended up.

Things don't arrange themselves by magic and good fortune. perhaps we would see better performances of traditional material if this were more widely realised.

Subject: RE: Ewan MacColl - any first-hand anecdotes?
From: GUEST
Date: 13 Oct 07 - 08:23 AM

"Things don't arrange themselves by magic and good fortune"
No they don't, they arrange themselves by hard slog; this is what MacColl did and what he urges everybody he came into contact with to do.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Ewan MacColl - any first-hand anecdotes?
From: Liam's Brother
Date: 13 Oct 07 - 10:46 PM

I was usually in London a couple of times a year beginning in 1969. Always checked the newspaper for folk clubs and sometimes I was there on the right night for the Singers Club. I remember being in the Bull and Mouth at least twice and other pubs whose names I forget. I saw Ewan & Peggy a few times, once with A.L. Lloyd. On one occasion, Ewan and I were near each other at the bar and I offered him a drink. We spoke for perhaps 15 minutes. He was quite gracious, listened sincerely and was very encouraging. I remember that we talked about the folk scene in Britain, Europe and, particularly, America because he'd been unable to get a visa and had not been there for a few years.

About 1980, I was preparing The Bonnie Bunch of Roses for publication and I wrote Ewan asking whether he might like to donate a song for the book. It did not take very long for him to reply. Ewan sent "The Campanero" which he and Peggy had collected from Ben Bright. I had admired Ewan McColl for a long time before meeting him and he did not disappoint in any way, except that I had expected him to be a foot taller.

All the best,
Dan Milner

Subject: RE: Ewan MacColl - any first-hand anecdotes?
From: Susanne (skw)
Date: 14 Oct 07 - 05:53 PM

I made it to the Singers' Club once - in the late Seventies, I think. At the time it took place in a singularly uninviting room, but not being used to folk clubs at all I didn't really mind. Ewan and Peggy were there, Tom Paley, and a songwriter called Kevin Littlewood from Wales (different story, told in another, earlier thread). That's all I can remember.

I was a bit disappointed at the time. Apart from an exchange between Ewan and Tom ("Is there any instrument you can play without tuning for hours?" "The accordion!") humour seemed to be in short supply, but that may have been due to my, back then, limited command of English. I didn't care that much for Peggy's rather shrill voice or Ewan's slightly monotonous delivery, th be honest.

But during the interval I picked up the courage to speak to them. Ewan appeared a bit tired but explained politely about one of Martin Carthy's songs (learned from Ewan, as it said in the sleevenotes), and Peggy tried to help with one of her brother's songs. When she couldn't she jotted down his address on a slip of paper and assured me it would be perfectly ok to drop him a line. Sadly, I never did, and never made it to the club again.

Now, of course, I look back on that night as a highlight of my folkie life!

Subject: RE: Ewan MacColl - any first-hand anecdotes?
From: GUEST,Jim Carroll
Date: 15 Oct 07 - 02:45 AM

("Is there any instrument you can play without tuning for hours?" "The accordion!")
Tom was notorious for tuning - everybody made a joke of the time he took, including himself
He didn't play accordion, banjo, guitar and fiddle.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Ewan MacColl - any first-hand anecdotes?
From: GUEST,redmax
Date: 15 Oct 07 - 05:28 AM

"I had expected him to be a foot taller"

Ah yes, the well known phenomenon of surprisingly short famous people.

About the alleged posturing nature of the guy, the checked shirts with the sleeves rolled up etc. Did anyone hear the pair of Critics seafaring LPs? On one of the shanties Ewan emits such a lusty "yargh!" between one of the lines, it always makes me laugh, it's so hammy.

Subject: RE: Ewan MacColl - any first-hand anecdotes?
From: theleveller
Date: 15 Oct 07 - 09:07 AM

Bit of an aside, here. I've just been reminded of my very, very old and much-loved ((scratched) vinyl copy of Tom Paley and Peggy Seeger's Whose Going To Shoe Your Pretty Little Foot on Topic. Anyone know if this is available on CD - can't seem to find it anywhere?

Subject: RE: Ewan MacColl - any first-hand anecdotes?
From: Rowan
Date: 16 Oct 07 - 12:21 AM

Went to the Singers Club (@ Bull & Mouth) when I was in London in '77; they were both polite. I did my song in the floorspot but didn't have a chance to chat with them afterwards because, when I sat down, the guy in front of me turned around to ask me if I was from Sydney ("Melbourne" I said) and whether I knew Sedenka; I knew I'd found Linsey Pollak and we were sidetracked into gasbagging when the evening formally finished.

I saw Peggy and Ewan when they visited Melbourne and they were again, polite and interested in what I was doing; Peggy was kind enough to offer a suggestion about my concertina playing. She was concerned that, by resting it on my knee I might wear a hole in the bellows. I took the hint in the spirit it had been been offered and declined to point out that it was only one endframe that had been resting against my thigh (unlike the more commonly seen - among English players - middle of the bellows across the top of the thigh) and therefore the bellows had no contact with trousers' fabric.

A friend of mine taped Ewan's voice projection workshop, given also on a visit to Oz, and Ewan's presentation was informative and helpful. My friend lived at Wyong at the time and practised the diaphragm 'grunts' in the bathroom in syncopation with Ewan's versions of the same grunts on the tape. This caused a treefrog, resident in the tree outside the bathroom window to join in, adding yet another level of suncopation to the experience. I don't know if Ewan ever found out he'd instigated a frogs' chorus.

All positive encounters.

Cheers, Rowan

Subject: RE: Ewan MacColl - any first-hand anecdotes?
From: GUEST,Hootenanny
Date: 16 Oct 07 - 06:41 AM

Correction for Jim Carroll
"Tom Paley WAS notorious for tuning" Delete 'WAS' insert 'IS'. Won't use an electronic tuner as he apparently doesn't think they are accurate ?

Hoot

Subject: RE: Ewan MacColl - any first-hand anecdotes?
From: Wolfgang
Date: 16 Oct 07 - 07:28 AM

I've seen him only once, in London, in the singers' club. He was one of those singers I longed to hear and see for a long time. In many years before that, at least four times, when I ended a journey to Scotland or Ireland with a few days in London, I found that I should have come the week before or the week after to hear MacColl. That was such a streak of bad luck that I actually found out before the next journey when the singers' club was and I arranged the vacation so that I could see the man.

I have forgotten nearly all about that evening except: A visibly old MacColl sung Joy of living which I heard for the first time then and immediately fell in love with.

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: Ewan MacColl - any first-hand anecdotes?
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 01 Feb 11 - 07:21 AM

"A bonne bouche for those who like trivia: Ewan and Peggy dined with us at a seafood cafe in Vancouver (the Marine View, almost entirely shoreworkers and now long gone) a few decades back and Ewan was DISGUSTED that they fried oysters there - apparently a no-no for people who've only ever eaten them raw (I've never eaten one at all!)." John Bartlett 11 Oct 07===

Not such trivia, perhaps, If Ewan did have a fault it was over-prescriptiveness; this seems to me an example of it, even tho on a culinary rather than a folk-musical matter. There isn't only one way to cook & eat an egg, or a steak; so why cavil at others' taste in bivalve molluscs? raw oysters taste one way, fried another; I myself am fond of both.

He was indeed usually polite: but sometimes both unreasonable & unmannerly ~~ I gave an example of this in some very dodgy treatment of a close friend of mine on the What Did You Do In The War? thread on 30 Aug 09 12.37 AM.

I had that Peggy Seeger sitting on my lap for a car journey from a club in 1956. Match that, any of you?

~Michael~

Subject: RE: Ewan MacColl - any first-hand anecdotes?
From: Vic Smith
Date: 01 Feb 11 - 12:31 PM

Tina and I were fairly frequent guests at Ailie Munro's famed dinner parties when she lived in Sussex. Ewan and Peggy were also guests on a couple of occasions when we were there. Ailie liked to mix and match from the vast number of people that she knew with academic, media, NGO, folk scene and political backgrounds. On one of these evenings, there were a number of Ailie's fierce feminist friends from the Hove Labour Party. Ewan had been doing most of the talking and it was clear this was getting a frosty reception from some of his listeners.

Ewan left the room, presumably to go to the loo, and one of the Hove group bristled and said, "Doesn't that man have any subject of conversation but himself?" and as you can imagine, that killed all conversation stone dead for quite a while. However, in the context of what had happened up to that point in the evening, it was fair comment.

Subject: RE: Ewan MacColl - any first-hand anecdotes?
From: GUEST,Steamin' Willie
Date: 01 Feb 11 - 12:59 PM

Met him many times. Interviewed him for my radio show a couple of times too.

My anecdotes would be favourable, yet the reputation for offhandedness and elitism are not entirely without foundation. the price of genius I guess.

Mind you, I once thought it rich when I did a floor turn warming up their night at a local club, and was asked by a friend to sing a song I wrote about the Irish famine. During their first set, he looked at me and reminded the audience that people should only sing what is indigenous to themselves. I thought it a bit rich coming from a bloke called Jim from Salford, borrowing his father's Scottish accent and singing like a bloke who might have been born Ewan.

Funny how the old bugger could bring the worst out in people. I didn't hang around for his second set that night.

Subject: RE: Ewan MacColl - any first-hand anecdotes?
From: The Sandman
Date: 01 Feb 11 - 01:34 PM

Subject: RE: Ewan MacColl - any first-hand anecdotes?
From: GUEST,Hootenanny - PM
Date: 16 Oct 07 - 06:41 AM

Correction for Jim Carroll
"Tom Paley WAS notorious for tuning" Delete 'WAS' insert 'IS'. Won't use an electronic tuner as he apparently doesn't think they are accurate ?

Hoot
Tom is right, they are not as good as the ear, but they get you close, i use them and then make final adjustments by ear, they are usefulk if you have been using several different tunings and the guitar strings are getting upset about being moved about

Subject: RE: Ewan MacColl - any first-hand anecdotes?
From: Rozza
Date: 01 Feb 11 - 02:51 PM

I met Ewan and Peggy on a number of occasion and have quite a few recollections of when we booked them at Rotherham Traditional Music Club, when they came to collect my Great Aunt's songs, and when they used to come and stay with mutual friends at Healing. I particularly remember the training course they did at Ipswich - Laban's efforts, vocal exercises, tremendous knowledge and enthusiasm. very inspiring.

Subject: RE: Ewan MacColl - any first-hand anecdotes?
From: Ian Fyvie
Date: 01 Feb 11 - 07:36 PM

I organised a couple of folk concerts at Ruskin College, Oxford in the mid 1970s.

We discussed who to book, Ewan and Peggy obviously being a popular choice. Then the grumbles started on the liines of what you may have read in the 2007 posttigs above.

As a long standing fan of Ewan's songs I insisted - and we booked both Ewan and Peggy.

Ewan was extremely polite and we had a 10 minute chat about politics and folk music. He sang none of his well known song, yes a bit disappointing I admit, but they gave us an excellent performance including up to the minute political compositions.

Ian Fyvie

PS. I live a few minutes walk from where Ailie Munroe lived when she had Ewan and Peggy along as guests. One of those tragedies - that I didn't get to know Ailie until after Ewan had passed on.

Subject: RE: Ewan MacColl - any first-hand anecdotes?
From: GUEST,Alan Whittle
Date: 01 Feb 11 - 07:49 PM

'they are not as good as the ear'

digital tuners may not be as good as some peoples ears, they're better than my lugholes by a country mile.

Subject: RE: Ewan MacColl - any first-hand anecdotes?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 02 Feb 11 - 03:47 AM

I remember first being asked to join the Critics Group while I was re-wiring the lights of their home in 1968. I dithered about taking the giant step leaving family and friends and moving from from the North of England to London - no home or job to go to.
We sat down and discussed it for a couple of hours and he and Peggy offered me their hospitality for as long as it took to find lodgings and work.
It took me nearly a month to get settled - not because work or accommodation were difficult to find in London in the sixties, but because, every day I found it near impossible to tear myself away from the inevitable discussions on songs and ballads, on theatre, on literature, on politics, (not to mention the private excericise he put me through in order to catch up with the work of the Critics Group) - probably the most memorable four weeks of my life.
My abiding memory of both Ewan and Peggy is of two insprational and extremely generous people who dedicated their lives to understanding, performing and passing on what they considered to be the songs of the people - that's the memory that remains with me still, that's the memory that will remain with me for the rest of my life.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Ewan MacColl - any first-hand anecdotes?
From: GUEST,Hootenanny
Date: 02 Feb 11 - 06:05 AM

Schweik,
Do you ever play in a session or group setting? It certainly helps to use electronic tuners in a situation like that. Four or five people tuning by ear is a bit risky in my experience. I don't believe too many people have "perfect pitch" although some think they do.

Hoot

Subject: RE: Ewan MacColl - any first-hand anecdotes?
From: GUEST,Desi C
Date: 02 Feb 11 - 08:41 AM

I met him just once in B irmingham at a folk club in Edgebaston, can't recall the name but it was in Waterworks RD Ladywood. I was following round the Ian Cambell Folk group, round about 1974 and I'd only just ghot interested in folk music. The Cambels were the support act and at the end of their set Ian said " I want to introduce you to someone, so we went into thev bar and there was this short beared guy at the bar, Ian said "this is Ewan McColl" and he shook my hand, seemed nice enough. I'm ashamed to say I didn't know then who he was! Shortly after he was about to begin his set, I noticed a great reverance around him, even Ian cambell who wasn't easily impressed showed due deference. Me I decided I'd leave just as he started, I did wonder why Ian gave me a baffled look! And of course later I realised what I'd missed!

Desi C
Host of
The Circle Folk Club
at Coseley working men's club
Ivyhouse Lane Coseley
]West Mids UK
WV!$ 9JH
Every Wed night, open mic
Showcase spots available
Mail crc778@aol for more info or to join free mailing list

Subject: RE: Ewan MacColl - any first-hand anecdotes?
From: Dave Hanson
Date: 02 Feb 11 - 09:30 AM

Nowt wrong wi' electronic tuners [ or capo's ] bloody musical snobs.

Dave H

Subject: RE: Ewan MacColl - any first-hand anecdotes?
From: Acorn4
Date: 02 Feb 11 - 10:26 AM

During the seventies I became involved with the CND goup in Leicester, and they put on a fundraiser at the University with Ewan and Peggy. I agreed to compere and assumed that all necessary arrangements had been made. Unfortunately, although CND were great people, when it came to organising things, the words "piss-up" and "brewery" immediately spring to mind.

I went onto the stage and then introduced Ewan and Peggy, but then Ewan turned to me and said: "we need the curtains drawn", meaning the front curtain of the stage so that the expanse of the stage behind them wouldn't be visible.

This was a Sunday and I had no idea how the curtains worked, so had to traipse off stage in search of a caretaker, who as anyone who works in educational establishments knows can be elusive. I had to leave the duo on stage during all this. I managed to find a caretaker eventually and had to walk across the stage with a pole with a hook on the end to draw the curtains, and the concert then got under way.

Subject: RE: Ewan MacColl - any first-hand anecdotes?
From: Northerner
Date: 02 Feb 11 - 10:58 AM

I went to Ewan's club in the 70s when I was living in London for a year. I did a floor spot there. Ewan asked me to sit on his knee but I refused. I went back to the club a few times but never when either Ewan or Peggy were there. I have to say I didn't really like the atmosphere at the club - I definitely found that both Ewan and Peggy were the object of a bit of hero worship and I didn't like that very much. There were other clubs in London at that time that I found were much more enjoyable. I respected Ewan McColl for his achievements but I can't say I liked him. That's just my experience though.

Subject: RE: Ewan MacColl - any first-hand anecdotes?
From: Vic Smith
Date: 02 Feb 11 - 11:22 AM

Acorn4 wrote
"Unfortunately, although CND were great people, when it came to organising things, the words "piss-up" and "brewery" immediately spring to mind."

I could top your experience to a considerable degree with my experiences in performing in fundraisers for CND... but we have already had thread-drift into digital tuners so I won't.

Actually, it feels like we are getting a rounded view of the strengths and weaknesses of Ewan's personality; it is most unlike a Mudcat/McColl thread - no rudeness, no hoary old pro/anti arguments being dragged out of the cupboards. Most unusual! The seventh post said let's try to remember the living, breathing chap. and do you know? That seems to be happening.

Subject: RE: Ewan MacColl - any first-hand anecdotes?
From: Mike Yates
Date: 02 Feb 11 - 01:54 PM

Funny, but when I heard the MacColl/slugs story (many, many years ago) the perpetrator was said to be the late John Brune.

Subject: RE: Ewan MacColl - any first-hand anecdotes?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 02 Feb 11 - 01:57 PM

"Actually, it feels like we are getting a rounded view of the strengths and weaknesses of Ewan's personality;"
Wouldn't it be a refreshing change if we discused his work and ideas rather than his personality.
I can't think of one other singer on the folk scene, (or any other artistic field, for that matter) who has had his/her 'personality' dragged through the mire more than MacColl has - and it's still happening twenty-two years after his death.
For instance, What do people think of his work in relating Laben's work on movement to singing efforts?
or
Did the relaxation and voice exercised work for anybody who became familiar with them.
Was his work using Stanislavski's 'application of the idea of 'if'' or 'emotion memory' valid for the singing of folk songs?
Or how about his approach to ballads - as outlined in articles he wrote on The Bonny Earl of Moray or Edom O' Gordon.
Or his suggestion that, when writing songs, the secret in getting them to work for audiences was that the writer should start "from the specific and move ro the general" so that everybody is given the opportunity to identify with the song..... MacColl did far more work on the singing of folk songs than anybody else in the revival; he was always ready to discuss that work with anybody who showed an interest. Despite this, we still don't appear to have moved beyond facile questions like 'why did he change his name' (never asked of Dylan/Zimmerman, or ' what did he sing with one hand cupped over his ear (never mentioned in relation to Bert Lloyd or The Watersons - the latter sang with both hands over their ears).
I'm quite convinced that, where MacColl is concerned, most of the revival is constantly acting out the Monty Python 'Arthur 'Two Sheds' Jackson sketch (the one where a composer can't get his work taken seriously because of his nickname.
Maybe it's time we started discussing other singers by their personality traits or problems - "did you hear the one about Alex Campbell chucking up on stage......?"
MacColl was a complex individual, often dificult to fathom by those who knew him, and pretty obviously impossible by those who didn't , but he was a creative artist who did far more to encourage creativity in others than anybody else on the scene - by miles.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Ewan MacColl - any first-hand anecdotes?
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 02 Feb 11 - 02:17 PM

Well, we do, Jim. How about Marilyn Monroe ~~ an exceptionally gifted actress, but who has written books about that, or quotes her on acting, rather than on "It's not true I was in bed with nothing on ~ I had the radio on"? We have several books entirely devoted to her suicide, a complex historical matter in which my wife happens to be particularly interested; but I don't know of any analyses of her acting.

As to Alex Campbell, I remember once writing of a gig of his that I could never fathom how he could hold an audience so expertly when he couldn't even hold a melody line ~~ an observation I recall Peter Bellamy saying was most pertinent and he wished he had written it: with Alex it was always the personality far more than the performance that people reacted and responded to.

With Ewan, OTOH, it was BOTH: which it seems to me makes it a bit captious and pernickety and over-defensive of you to object to; rather than accepting it as the tribute it undoubtedly is to the complex personality he undoubtedly was.

~Michael~

Subject: RE: Ewan MacColl - any first-hand anecdotes?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 02 Feb 11 - 03:09 PM

"Well, we do, Jim. How about Marilyn Monroe "
Oh come on Mike - Marilyn Monroe my arseum; no other folk figure is debated as superficially or vituperatively as MacColl . - is so, name them.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Ewan MacColl - any first-hand anecdotes?
From: GUEST,Ewan MacColl
Date: 02 Feb 11 - 03:11 PM

So, in your opinion Jim, why did Ewan MacColl have two sheds?

Subject: RE: Ewan MacColl - any first-hand anecdotes?
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 02 Feb 11 - 03:22 PM

Jim: you posted "on the folk scene, (or any other artistic field, for that matter)"; & I provided precisely what you asked for. (Even if you argue that you specified 'singer', then go back & listen to her incomparable "My Heart Belongs To Daddy".)

So Marilyn Monroe your arseum [ɷɷɷɷɷɷ] right back to you.

♥♫❤···Michael····❤♫♥

Subject: RE: Ewan MacColl - any first-hand anecdotes?
From: GUEST,Alan Whittle
Date: 02 Feb 11 - 03:26 PM

Sorry that was me, who asked the vital two sheds question, my mind must have been elsewhere, calling myself Ewan MacColl.

Subject: RE: Ewan MacColl - any first-hand anecdotes?
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 02 Feb 11 - 03:35 PM

Two sheds? I expect he was thinking of the folktale of the Welshman shipwrecked on the desert island who was found when rescued years later to have carefully built two chapels. Asked why, he said, "Well, you see, that one on the right is the one I go to on Sundays." "Oh? And what's the other for?" "That one? Why, I wouldn't be seen dead in that one!"

Sospan-vach ···

~Michael~

Subject: RE: Ewan MacColl - any first-hand anecdotes?
From: GUEST,Alan Whittle
Date: 02 Feb 11 - 03:41 PM

Now I come to think about it, I think I may have the answer to the two sheds problem.

In shed one - Ewan took his stand; ecce homo; this is the man taking a stand for the preservation of tradition,; there I stand, like Luther... upon my principles.

In shed two - Ewan was the liberated artist; writing plays; writing and performing songs, acting; the big hewer; the great artificer.

Once you have understood the sheds, then you have understood the man.

Subject: RE: Ewan MacColl - any first-hand anecdotes?
From: GUEST,Derek Schofield
Date: 02 Feb 11 - 03:44 PM

Jim wrote:
MacColl was a complex individual, often dificult to fathom by those who knew him, and pretty obviously impossible by those who didn't , but he was a creative artist who did far more to encourage creativity in others than anybody else on the scene - by miles.

Exactly, which is why you, Jim, and Pat, are the best people to write something substantial on Ewan's work and ideas.

Derek

Subject: RE: Ewan MacColl - any first-hand anecdotes?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 02 Feb 11 - 05:30 PM

"So, in your opinion Jim, why did Ewan MacColl have two sheds? "
Oh dear!
Any 'Python' fan will describe the sketch where a composer wants to talk about his music, while the interviewer will only discuss his nickname - pretty much the same as threads like these.
"Exactly, which is why you, Jim, and Pat, are the best people to write something substantial on Ewan's work and ideas."
Thank you for that Derek.
In 1978, Pat and I began to interview Ewan - it lasted over six months (about a dozen nights) and concntrated almost exclusively on his work and ideas on song; it was an incredibly rewarding experience for us. At one time our aim was to transcribe it and make it available to all but, as the world seems full of people who 'were asked to sit on MacColl's knee, and never went back' it will probably be archived and let the future decide.
I've thought I'd heard it all about MacColl, but 'Ewan the letch' is a new one on me (Bert maybe!). As a regular at The Singer's I heard the 'sit on my knee' joke a dozen or so times, every time they played to capacity audiences, which was virtually every time they were on. I even received the invitation a few times myself - it was a reference to the club being full (an indication of their popularity as artists). It wasn't one of his better jokes, but it was mildly amusing the first half-dozen times, especially (as Mike, I'm sure, will confirm), MacColl always sat on a back-to-front chair (a relaxation technique) and so, didn't have a lap to sit on. I can't believe that anybody could take it seriously (especially in the light of Peggy's feminist politics).
Mike:
"Jim: you posted "on the folk scene, (or any other artistic field, for that matter)"
Fair enough - I rephrase and ask again - what folk artist has had his or her character placed before their contribution to the music to the extent MacColl has?
Maybe we should concentrate on Grainger's S & M fetish rather than his Lincolnshire collection - what do you think?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Ewan MacColl - any first-hand anecdotes?
From: GUEST,Derek Schofield
Date: 02 Feb 11 - 05:40 PM

well, Jim, if people worried about what others might say, or worried about philistinism or trivialism, then a lot of academic works would get published.
I seem to remember, from reading, that Ewan was ridiculed (by Joan Littlewood for example) for giving up the theatre for folk song. Thank goodness, he took no notice, and carried on!
Derek

Subject: RE: Ewan MacColl - any first-hand anecdotes?
From: GUEST,Tim Stevens
Date: 02 Feb 11 - 06:18 PM

Back on track slightly, I met Ewan MacColl once back in the early seventies. My father had taken me to a folk club somewhere on the Royal Mile in Edinburgh and had been rather surprised to discover that he'd known Ewan at Bletchley - although he wasn't calling himself Ewan Macoll back then. Indeed, it was my father who'd initially nursed him back to health after he'd had the slight breakdown. That sort of thing wasn't uncommon, apparently, due to the obvious pressue and my father dealt with a number of cases. When we bumped into Ewan outside the club he looked at my father as though he'd seen a ghost, but after the initial shock I remember them shaking hands and having a quiet pint together whilst the band played on. I don't remember ever seeing him again and my father seldom talked of those days until his final few months.

Subject: RE: Ewan MacColl - any first-hand anecdotes?
From: GUEST,Hootenanny
Date: 02 Feb 11 - 06:59 PM

How about Oscar Wilde Jim?

I think his name has been dragged through the mire somewhat for some reason or another. I don't know much about him but I think he wrote a play or two.

Regarding Ewan and Laban, you could always start a thread on the subject.

Hoot

Subject: RE: Ewan MacColl - any first-hand anecdotes?
From: Anne Neilson
Date: 02 Feb 11 - 07:17 PM

I first met Ewan and Peggy in the summer of 1962 when they came up to Glasgow to record material for what eventually became the radio ballad "On the Edge". I had just left school and our English teacher Norman Buchan had organised a group of young people to be available for recording. The two females stayed with Peggy at Norman's house -- for the whole day, fuelled with snacks by his wife Janey, who disappeared for the rest of the time -- and the lads went with Norman and Ewan to Matt McGinn's house, where they were left alone with Ewan.

Peggy was a most empathetic interviewer and the other Anne and I relaxed until it seemed as if there was the equivalent of a 'stream of consciousness' release. The two of us came away feeling valued, vindicated and more in touch with our feelings than either of us expected!

It was quite a few years later before I saw them again (in performance at Kilmarnock Folk Club). I was well aware of Ewan's contribution to traditional and political song, and Peggy's background in American tradition -- but I wasn't prepared for her recognising me when I went in a bit early, and quoting me one of the lines from our long-past interview that had made it into the Radio Ballad! They did a great night, as you would expect, but at the end I was in awe of Ewan's skill and depth of knowledge -- and stunned by Peggy's ability to relate on a personal level. (Truthfully, I doubt I could have hacked it at a Critics Group meeting, being too insecure at the time, so Peggy's 'softer' approach was more acceptable to me.)

The last time I saw them both was a performance in the Washington Street Arts Centre in Glasgow, when they must have known that Ewan was dying, and there were rumours about. There were no obvious compromises in their programming (although, with hindsight, Peggy was probably quite protective), and the evening ended with 'The Joy of Living', which was completely unknown to us. I looked along the row and saw Norman Buchan with tears on his cheeks, and he wasn't the only one.

A major figure whose influence has yet to be adequately measured -- but I do wonder how readily I would have recognised his importance without Peggy's 'mediation'? (Have to explain that my main influence as far as traditional music is concerned was the aforementioned Norman Buchan, who set up a Ballads Club at our school Rutherglen Academy in 1957, and who introduced us to singers like Jeannie Robertson. Jimmy MacBeath, Pete Seeger, The Weavers etc.)

Subject: RE: Ewan MacColl - any first-hand anecdotes?
From: Vic Smith
Date: 03 Feb 11 - 07:30 AM

Not a direct Ewan story, but relevant here I think.....
Very quickly after getting into folk clubs in the early 1960s, I was smitten - still am - by the magnificent singing and repertoire of the various Scots Traveller families. This was before I heard the radio ballad The Travelling People which remains a favourite with all those magnificent songs. Soon after hearing the album, I started to spend summers in Scotland and was in contact with various traveller families, mainly the Stewarts of Blair who were so wonderfully welcoming. I started to find in long conversations with Belle that lots of the phrases and constructions that she used had also been used by Ewan in his compositions for this radio ballad. Somehow, this made me feel uncomfortable.
About this time we booked Bert Lloyd at out folk club and he stayed with us after the club which was the usual pattern. I used to love talking to Bert, who I always regarded as a very wise man. I mentioned the fact that I had found many of Belle's phrases in Ewan's songs and that I felt that this was in some way a form of plagiarism.

Bert listened carefully to what I said and then answered, "Perhaps what you are describing is the great skill of the man."

Hmm... oh yes....hadn't thought of it that way.

Subject: RE: Ewan MacColl - any first-hand anecdotes?
From: Fred McCormick
Date: 03 Feb 11 - 07:56 AM

Vic,

What you are describing is something which poets and songwriters all do to some extent. IE., taking the speech and sayings of people around them and working same into their compositions.

Like Bert, I've always regarded it as one of MacColl's great song writing strengths, and a measure of just how close he could get to the people he wrote about.

Subject: RE: Ewan MacColl - any first-hand anecdotes?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 03 Feb 11 - 09:32 AM

Ewan did this with a number of his songs, most of which, not surprisingly, became classics.
The songs from The Travelling People were based on some of the actuality recorded from not just Belle, but other Travellers, Minty Smith and Caroline Hughes for instance.
Similarly, if you listen to the recordings of Sam Larner and Ronnie Balls made for Singing The Fishing you will hear phrases used in Shoals of Herring. Sam said of the song that he felt he'd known it all his life.
Peter Keenan's song (The Fight Game) drew from recordings of a Glaswegian boxer.
Elsewhere the much neglected 'Shellback' was based on field recordings of mariner Ben Bright.
The also neglected 'Tenant Farmer' came from a conversation about an eviction in the Scottish borders.
It is why his songs reflected the subjects they dealt with and were not pastishe copies
His least successful Radio Ballad songs (IMO) were those where he stood remote from the people he was dealing with (Body Blow and On The Edge); the actuality was fine but the songs don't seem to have stood the test of time.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Ewan MacColl - any first-hand anecdotes?
From: Vic Smith
Date: 03 Feb 11 - 09:34 AM

Thinking about Belle Stewart after what I wrote in the posting above, it made me think of the times in the 1960s and 1970s that I used to organise folk club tours for the Stewarts and a number of other traditional Scots and Irish performers who had found acceptance in the one sort of folk club. I always used to contact the Singers' Club when I was organising these tours and invariably they would either book the people that I suggested or give me a very good reason (already booked etc.) why they would not. As our club met on the night after the Singers Club, it meant that the Stewarts would come to Lewes after staying with Ewan & Peggy in Beckenham. Belle was never neutral about that pair. She would either arrive telling us that they were the most kind loving couple that she had ever met or she was "bliddy glad tae get oot o' that awfa' hoose." though it was usually Peggy rather than the pair of them that raised her ire. Belle was always contrary in her opinion of the folklorists she worked with; Hamish Henderson was alternately a saint or a devil according to Belle.
Writing this has made me remember the extensive coverage that Ewan gets in that marvellous book The Elliotts of Birtley by Pete Wood (Herron Publishing ISBN 978-0954068233). Here are two of the more relevant quotations; once again we get a mixed view of Ewan MacColl:-


When MacColl met the Elliotts, it must have been like all his birthdays coming at once. I think that in Ewan's mind, the working man had been endowed with dignity, fierce pride, great honesty and openness, a keen sense of the unfairness of the capitalist system, and a political drive to replace it with a fair, humane, and sensitive brave new world in which the workers would be at the same level as the bosses. In doing this, it would be the community culture that would make it possible, and songs, particularly those of protest, would put the fairy on the top of this idealised Christmas tree. The Elliotts, although far from typical of their community, had quite simply fulfilled all his dreams.
Accordingly, Ewan, Charles (Parker) and Peggy (Seeger) became the first of several teams to set up their cumbersome recording gear in Brown's Buildings. During the course of a week in March 1961, they recorded their 'actuality', mainly from Jack and Reece Elliott, pitmen all their lives. As we saw earlier, there is wonderful material here about the traditional games the miners played, the terrible conditions, wriggling through a 16-inch seam, the dangers of roof fall and water in the pit, Jack's two accidents, and living conditions at home.
A great deal of this was used unedited in the ensuing radio ballad, The Big Hewer. The programme had as its theme the pit's superman, the one who outshone all his mates, could fill two tubs to the others' one, and hold up the dodgy roof with his back. MacColl had come across this in several of the coalfields, and thought it a myth, a John Henry figure. However, there were real men who were like this, and most pits had one. As with every job, there was always somebody who could do it better or faster than the rest.
Pages 53/54

Some time in the early '60s there was a Club trip to the Singers' Club in London at the request of Ewan and Peggy. A 40-seater coach was duly filled and down they all went. Some have mixed feelings about the trip, saying MacColl was arrogant and didn't let them sing. They had thought they were taking over the Club for the night. In fact, however, it was just the Elliott family that had been asked to go. Imagine the effect of these boisterous Geordies, all het up and raring to go, on the staid Singers' Club audience of that time!
However, as Bob Davenport, the Gateshead singer long exiled in London, comments, Jack was told what to sing at the Singers' Club. It seemed he was there as a performer, obliged to pop up from time to time in order to illustrate a point from MacColl's 'lecture'. He was delighted to find that when invited to sing at the Fox Club in Islington, he could sing anything he liked when he liked! (Different approach, different people, the Folk Revival had it all.)
Jim Bainbridge, long-exiled singer and musician, and member of the legendary Marsden Rattlers of the 60s and 70s, has this to say:
"Tolerant folk clubs taught many of us that, given the opportunity, most singers improve with time and experience, and that this serves the tradition much better than the quality control exercised at Ewan MacColl's Singers Club. MacColl was a wonderful songwriter and promoter of the tradition as he saw it, but as a man of the theatre -with little time for imperfection - his ideas for improving the quality of singing were applied via technical advice and analysis rather than absorption by exposure to the perceived inadequacies of unbelievers. No less a singer than old Jack Elliott of Birtley was once castigated by this crowd - after a return visit to the Singer's Club, disappointment was expressed that his singing hadn't "improved" since his last visit -What a damn cheek!"
There was also apparently a comment by either Ewan or Peggy that Jack "hadn't moved on", implying that they expected him to develop a stage act, much as they had done. It's sad that they didn't see the true value of such a natural singer who had such a wide appeal without artificial devices.
Pages 81/82

Subject: RE: Ewan MacColl - any first-hand anecdotes?
From: Brian May
Date: 03 Feb 11 - 01:54 PM

I met Peggy Seeger and Ewan at a college gig in Bognor Regis in the late 60's.

I had done a song called 'Talking Bognor Regis Sewage Blues'. Peggy approached me after my spot and asked if she could have the lyrics as they were collecting 'modern' English folk songs.

Being a cheeky sod, I said I'd send the lyrics by post, but surely they didn't expect me to pay for the postage . . .

Bless her, she got her bag out and gave me 4d (4 pence - which was the price of a first class letter in those days - which usually arrived next day too).

I never sent it - I owe Peggy and Ewan 4d. I must admit I found him a bit aloof or distant (seemed to be somewhere else), Peggy was nice though and I liked her brother of course.

Subject: RE: Ewan MacColl - any first-hand anecdotes?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 03 Feb 11 - 02:57 PM

"I must admit I found him a bit aloof or distant"
Doubt if he would have cheated you out of 4d though, or asked for it in the first place!!!!!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Ewan MacColl - any first-hand anecdotes?
From: GUEST,Bert Lloyd
Date: 03 Feb 11 - 05:08 PM

I never met him.