BS: San Diego/California Wildfires Again

Subject: RE: BS: San Diego/California Wildfires Again
From: Sorcha
Date: 06 Nov 07 - 09:53 PM

To TJ...no, the back country will never be 'the same' but fire is one of Mother's tools...and the back country WILL recover. It just takes more time than humans want to wait.

Mother has a REASON for fire. Called rejuvination, but She didn't figure on arson either. Or little boys playing with matches.

Subject: RE: BS: San Diego/California Wildfires Again
From: Amos
Date: 06 Nov 07 - 09:45 PM

One way is by enforcing the 100-yard clearing around homes, which though on the books is not enforced.

Another is by doing controlled maintenance burns to reduce the tinder. It is much more affordable than letting it stack up until another wildfire comes through and uses it.

A

Subject: RE: BS: San Diego/California Wildfires Again
From: gnu
Date: 06 Nov 07 - 05:50 PM

"... all too preventable." ?? How so?

Subject: RE: BS: San Diego/California Wildfires Again
From: GUEST,TJ in San Diego
Date: 06 Nov 07 - 05:22 PM

The two bombers in question dropped like unguided missiles, as you might imagine. Film shot of one of them was in Colorado, I believe, some time ago.

Having worked on forest fires crews for two years as a young man, and having lived through three major santa ana wind-driven fires (1970, 2003 and 2007), I am glad to now live near the ocean. We are recovering slowly, but it will take 2-3 years, minimum, for all the rebuilding. Even after the people are helped, some of the back country will never be the same - habitats destroyed, animal populations displaced or killed, old oaks gone, etc. Sad, and all too preventable.

Subject: RE: BS: San Diego/California Wildfires Again
From: Ebbie
Date: 05 Nov 07 - 09:26 PM

Ye gods. What happened to the two water bombers? Any fatalities?

Subject: RE: BS: San Diego/California Wildfires Again
From: Donuel
Date: 05 Nov 07 - 08:20 PM

I've seen video of 2 water bombers that snapped off their wing/s by climbing too rapidly under a full load.

The Richard Drefus movie about smoke pilots was good.

IT is a most dangerous and heroic occupation.

Subject: RE: BS: San Diego/California Wildfires Again
From: Susan A-R
Date: 02 Nov 07 - 10:38 PM

I've been off at my sister's with very sporadic internet, but have been thinking of you Amos, and Dave Swan and your fire fighters. Things sounded pretty terrifying.

I live in the land of the asbestos forest, so the most we see is smoke out of Canada now and then. I clench just seeing television footage.

Be well guys.

Susan

Subject: RE: BS: San Diego/California Wildfires Again
From: Riginslinger
Date: 01 Nov 07 - 11:22 PM

Hey, that was really good!

Subject: RE: BS: San Diego/California Wildfires Again
From: GUEST,George
Date: 26 Oct 07 - 09:10 AM

You are welcome Amos.

Subject: RE: BS: San Diego/California Wildfires Again
From: Sandra in Sydney
Date: 26 Oct 07 - 01:42 AM

thanks for the photo link - & it's good to read things are getting better (fingers crossed, especially where bureaucracy is concerned)

sandra

Subject: RE: BS: San Diego/California Wildfires Again
From: Peace
Date: 25 Oct 07 - 10:33 PM

Good news to hear, A.

Subject: RE: BS: San Diego/California Wildfires Again
From: Amos
Date: 25 Oct 07 - 09:36 PM

MAyor Sanders has announced that QualComm Stadium will stand down from service as an evac center tomorrow at noon -- a sure sign the worst is over. More deaths have been found among the ashes -- about six people. President Bush dropped by and shook hands with a slough of weary dfire fighters and mouthed all the right mouth music. After San Diego had self organized to such a high degree of success he is now offering a 1-900 FEMA number, which I am sure will work like gangbusters. Nothing like a few layers of wooden-headed bureaucracy between those who need help and the help they need.

A

Subject: RE: BS: San Diego/California Wildfires Again
From: gnu
Date: 25 Oct 07 - 02:13 PM

Ya know. That there jet water bomber must be a hoot to be in. I have been close to three forest fires, and, at one....

Once, in Labrador, we were headed for work and got pulled over at an RCMP roadblock. A very large RCMP (even the small ones look large when you get pulled over) asked, "Do any of you have any health problems which would stop you from helping fight a forest fire?" I was driving and replied, "Well, I would be scared shitless." Said officer was not amused and said, rather sternly and while looking me straight in the eyes with a glaring stare, "If so, you must explain in writing what they are on this form (duly produced) and sign it. You will be checked out and prosecution may result from any false statements. Everyone else on the bus immediately."

Well, I did get one the bus, but, I WAS scared shitless. As luck would have it, by the time we got to the fire, it was raining and the fire was under control. I won't go into a long explanation, but, my electrical inspector, a Navy vet, got me and himself on a Canso water bomber for the last bit of the fire. When that Canso opened up and the water dropped, I nearly dropped water. I can't imagine being in one of those jet water bombers when it takes a leak!

Subject: RE: BS: San Diego/California Wildfires Again
From: Amos
Date: 25 Oct 07 - 02:04 PM

Several photo galleries of the various scenes in SoCal over the last few days.

A

Subject: RE: BS: San Diego/California Wildfires Again
From: Peace
Date: 25 Oct 07 - 02:02 PM

If the fires were deliberately set, I hope the people who did it face life--real life--in jail.

Subject: RE: BS: San Diego/California Wildfires Again
From: Amos
Date: 25 Oct 07 - 02:00 PM

2007 Wildfire fatalities update
Posted @ 8:39 AM
"The County of San Diego announces this morning that 10 fire-related deaths of San Diego County residents have occurred during the 2007 Wildfires. This includes three deaths directly related to the fires, three that occurred during evacuation activities and four that happened after the people were evacuated, a county spokeswoman said in a press release.

The most recent fatalities included in these statistics are:
Robert M. Sibbison, an 86-year-old male under hospice care, experienced shortness of breath while being evacuated via ambulance on the morning of Oct. 24. He died at Grossmont Hospital.

Priscilla Frias, a twenty-year-old female who had serious medical problems, evacuated with her family to Tijuana when she had difficulty breathing. Her family transported her to San Diego for medical attention when her breathing condition worsened. She was transported to Scripps Mercy Hospital-Chula Vista during the early morning hours of Oct. 24 and pronounced dead.

Two sets of unidentified charred remains were found in the rubble of a destroyed house on Highland Valley Road in unincorporated Poway during the evening hours of Oct. 24. (Cause of death is pending, the spokeswoman said.)"

Subject: RE: BS: San Diego/California Wildfires Again
From: Amos
Date: 25 Oct 07 - 01:54 PM

President gets air and ground tours of damage
Posted @ 10:22 AM
"President Bush touched down at San Pasqual High School in Escondido shortly after 10 a.m. following an aerial tour of the fire danger surrounding Lake Hodges.

Outside the windows of the helicopter convoy, you could see patches of scorched earth below, but you could also see rolling green golfcourses and houses that escaped the damage.

The president's motorcade took him toward neighborhoods where he will tour more damage. A couple dozen people lined the road near the high school with cameras."

Subject: RE: BS: San Diego/California Wildfires Again
From: Greg B
Date: 25 Oct 07 - 01:30 PM

Sorcha, is 'Mr.' a ham radio guy?

When I was active in amateur radio and living in the Silly-cone
Valley, I got called out on fire duty, as comm shadow to the CDF
incident commander. Very interesting duty; hams were the bridge
between incompatible and/or non-functional radio systems. We had
the only stuff that would work everywhere, all the time, between
teams from different jurisdictions.

Got REAL close to some serious fire (actually, a flare-up
crossed a road we were going down). The pictures don't do it
justice, nor the courage of the people who get out in the
middle of that stuff. It's real big and real hot.

Subject: RE: BS: San Diego/California Wildfires Again
From: open mike
Date: 25 Oct 07 - 01:27 PM

One suspected arsonist in this area who had 20 fires attributed to him was caught and while in jail he hung himself...we will never know for sure about the questions he could have answered. Must have been a very troubled soul. 50-60 other fires were being investigated as potentially caused by this same person.

http://www.sacbee.com/288/story/347651.html

http://www.wildlandfire.com/hotlist/showthread.php?t=1495

Subject: RE: BS: San Diego/California Wildfires Again
From: Amos
Date: 25 Oct 07 - 01:17 PM

Thanks, George, for the high-velocity flash-back!! And everyone for their kind thoughts.



A

Subject: RE: BS: San Diego/California Wildfires Again
From: Donuel
Date: 25 Oct 07 - 01:06 PM

open mike, Amos

Good on you for such accurate needed information.

Subject: RE: BS: San Diego/California Wildfires Again
From: saulgoldie
Date: 25 Oct 07 - 01:04 PM

Don't know if anyone has mentioned this earlier in the thread (and not to make light of the situation by any stretch of the imagination), but:

http://thinkprogress.org/2007/10/24/fox-news-al-qaeda-is-causing-the- ca-wildires/

To which I can only add, MRSA is likely an al-qaeda plot. And when it arrives, avian flu will be also. Furthermore, I believe that it was an al-qaeda plot that I got up feeling very sleepy this morning, and that my normal cup of coffee was of no relief.

Subject: RE: BS: San Diego/California Wildfires Again
From: saulgoldie
Date: 25 Oct 07 - 12:57 PM

My heartfelt thoughts and prayers go out to those, especially Mudcatters and their loved ones who are in harm's way in the fire area.

Subject: RE: BS: San Diego/California Wildfires Again
From: GUEST,George
Date: 25 Oct 07 - 12:45 PM

Amos: This is for you buddy.

Subject: RE: BS: San Diego/California Wildfires Again
From: Ebbie
Date: 25 Oct 07 - 12:07 PM

I just talked with my son in law. They are still at his parents' (and it is in Trabuco Canyon); they plan to go home tomorrow- because there is a hockey game they want to attend tonight. He said, That sounds silly, I know.

The air quality is still bad but the humidity has shot up dramatically and the winds have died. Their home is still standing as are all the homes in their community (Hidden Meadows in north Escondido).

They are fortunate indeed. For a great many other people, now starts the hard part.

Subject: RE: BS: San Diego/California Wildfires Again
From: Peace
Date: 25 Oct 07 - 09:58 AM

Thanks for the info, A.

Subject: RE: BS: San Diego/California Wildfires Again
From: Amos
Date: 25 Oct 07 - 09:53 AM

The major transmission line which was downed by the Harris fire and put the county at risk of a major blackout was repaired by SDGE hero crews working frantically; they beat their labor estimate by 50%.

If convicted of arson, a person faces sentence of up to ten years, and in addition he may face murder charges. There have been several collateral deaths, elderly collapsing under the stress of evacuation, and one directly caused by the Harris fire.

At least one of the fires around here is thought to be an arson incident but the evidence won't be sifted carefully until the major firefighting is over.


A

Subject: RE: BS: San Diego/California Wildfires Again
From: Peace
Date: 25 Oct 07 - 09:49 AM

I hope that California has some seriously stiff arson laws in place. If it plays out that way (arson), there are deaths involved.

Subject: RE: BS: San Diego/California Wildfires Again
From: Peace
Date: 25 Oct 07 - 09:43 AM

Amos: how's the electrical power situation?

Subject: RE: BS: San Diego/California Wildfires Again
From: Sandra in Sydney
Date: 25 Oct 07 - 09:33 AM

Some of our recent fires are suspected to have been set by arsonists, and no doubt we'll hear more about arsonists when the fire season really gets going.

sandra

Subject: RE: BS: San Diego/California Wildfires Again
From: Amos
Date: 25 Oct 07 - 09:31 AM

The Harris fire is the one that swept down along the border region. Chula Vista was put on voluntary evacuation in certain areas, and this constraint was later lifted. But the wilder regions east of the city have been a battle field against raging fire.

---

"The base camps set up around the county to house command posts also include tents with cots where firefighters sleep. Some are staying in hotels. But many are sleeping wherever they can.

After 24 hours of fighting the Harris fire near Deerhorn Valley, Vic Lofton and his crew curled up against the tires of their firetrucks or just sprawled on the ground. For those still awake, the fatigue was evident in their long, unfocused stares.

"We rest when we can," Lofton said. "If you don't sleep, it will catch up to you." Then a call came in.

The crew hauled themselves off the ground and stood, ready to head to another hot spot."

---

The current state of the Harris fire: "6:44 p.m. October 23, 2007:

"The Harris fire started the day heading toward Bonita and Chula Vista on Tuesday, then shifted in the afternoon and advanced toward Rancho San Diego. Mandatory evacuation orders were issued – then lifted – for residents of Bonita's Sunnyside neighborhood and Chula Vista's San Miguel Ranch.

"Evacuations remained in effect for north Jamul, the state Route 67 corridor north of Lakeside, and the area of Rancho San Diego bordered by Del Rio Road, Steele Canyon Road, Fury Lane and Millar Ranch Road. "

A

Subject: RE: BS: San Diego/California Wildfires Again
From: Big Mick
Date: 25 Oct 07 - 08:04 AM

It's being reported that two of the fires may be arson.

Swanno, I know that you are worried sick for your crew. Hope all is OK.

Mick

Subject: RE: BS: San Diego/California Wildfires Again
From: Big Mick
Date: 25 Oct 07 - 08:02 AM

Amos, I am following this with breath held. You and all the SoCal 'Catters are in my thoughts and prayers. I used to live out there in the middle of that. Any update on the Chula Vista area fire? Is it in the Sweetwater River valley? Or out by Brown Field? I lived and have friends out there.

Mick

Subject: RE: BS: San Diego/California Wildfires Again
From: Amos
Date: 25 Oct 07 - 07:43 AM

Ron:

Parts of the county, perhaps. My region had several good doses of rain, but they were short. I am not accustomed to thinking of a rainy season in San Diego, and one reason is that it often falls, as it does in Camelot, at night. There are many microclimates, tending to get more arid as you go east from the ocean.

We typically get between 10 and 12 inches a year, and the heaviest months are traditional January, February and December. Here's a month by month description.

It is cooler here this morning, with the Santa Ana winds having abated, so we are hopeful that major inroads will be made today.

A

Subject: RE: BS: San Diego/California Wildfires Again
From: open mike
Date: 25 Oct 07 - 01:54 AM

Here is the latest status update for the Southern California fires from the National Fire Information Center:

Witch (San Diego County): 145,000 acres at zero percent contained. This fire is one mile east of Ramona. Hundreds of homes and commercial building have been damaged or destroyed. Currently, 5,000 residences and 1,500 commercial properties are threatened in San Diego, Poway, Ramona, Escondido, Lakeside, Valley Center, San Marcos, and Rancho Santa Fe. Wildcat Canyon is closed. Highway 67 is closed from Poway to Ramona. For information, call [phone].

Ranch (Angeles National Forest): 54,518 acres at 10 percent contained. This fire is seven miles north of Castaic. Evacuations continue in Chiquito Canyon, Hasley Canyon, Val Verde, Hopper Canyon and toward Filmore. Currently, 500 residences and 50 commercial properties are threatened. Three homes and four outbuildings have been destroyed. For information, call 626-574-5208 or visit the web site: inciweb.org/incident/1002. Buckweed (Los Angeles County): 37,812 acres at 27 percent contained. This fire is 14 miles west of Palmdale. A mandatory evacuation of 15,000 residents remains in effect. More than 55,000 homes in the communities of Santa Clarita, Castaic, Leona Valley, Green Valley, Acton, Agua Dulce, Bouquet Reservoir and Mint Canyon are threatened. For information, call [phone].

Harris (San Diego County): 70,000 acres at five percent contained. This fire is two miles southeast of Potrero. At least 200 homes have been destroyed in this fire - more than 50 were in Deerhorn Valley and Honey Springs. Citizens are sheltered at Fire Station 66. Two thousand homes and 500 commercial properties are threatened. More than 3,000 people have been evacuated in the area of Harris Ranch Road and Otay Lake Road. For information, call [phone].

Santiago (Orange County): 7,865 acres at 30 percent contained. This fire is 12 miles east of Santa Ana. Highway 241 is closed from Santiago Canyon to Highway 133. Portola Parkway and portions of Jamboree Road in Irvine are closed. 3,500 homes and 150 commercial properties are threatened in the communities of Foothill Ranch, Lake Forest, Modjeska, and Silverado Canyon. For information, call 714-573-6200.

Canyon (Los Angeles County): 3,800 acres at eight percent contained. This fire is two miles north of Malibu. Mandatory evacuations were implemented in the following areas: Monte Nido, Malibu Colony, Malibu Rd., Sweetwater Canyon, Carbon Canyon, Carbon Mesa, Rambla Pacifica, Big Rock, Topanga Canyon, Powder Ranch Rd. and Monte Vista Dr. Currently, 600 residences, 200 commercial buildings, and 100 outbuildings are threatened. Residents from 500 homes have been evacuated. For information, call [phone]. NEW Rice (Los Angles County FD): 6,100 acres at zero percent contained. This fire is seven miles east of Fallbrook. Right now, 2,500 homes are threatened. The town of Fallbrook has been evacuated. Camp Pendleton and Oceanside are threatened. Hundreds of homes and commercial buildings have been damaged or destroyed. For information, call [phone]. NEW Magic (Los Angeles County FD): 1,200 acres at zero percent contained. This fire is three miles west of Santa Clarita. Nine hundred homes are threatened in the Santa Clarita and Simi Valley areas. Transportation and oil infrastructres are threatened. For information, call [phone].

NEW Poomacha (Monte Vista Unit, Cal Fire): 1,000 acres at zero percent contained. This fire is seven miles east of Pauma Valley. Evacuations are in effect along the Highway 76 Corridor. For information, call [phone].

Coronado Hills (San Diego County): 300 acres at zero percent contained. This fire is two miles south of San Marcos. No other information was provided. McCoy (Cleveland National Forest): 300 acres at 50 percent contained. This fire is four miles southwest of Julian. For information, call [phone]. Grass Valley (San Bernardino National Forest): 300 acres at an unknown percent contained. This fire is north of Lake Arrowhead. For information, call 909-383-5688 or visit the web site: inciweb.org/incident/1003/

Roca (Riverside County, California Department of Forestry): This fire was contained at 269 acres.

Sedgewick (Los Padres National Forest): This fire was contained at 710 acres.

Subject: RE: BS: San Diego/California Wildfires Again
From: Sorcha
Date: 25 Oct 07 - 12:28 AM

Does steam do as much good as liquid water? I wouldn't think so because it dissipates so much faster. Asking here, not arguing.

And the fire I was at (not 'on'--Mr was On comm/radio duty) the water was being dumped on the flames. Perhaps ahead of them too, but I didn't actually see that.

I was more interested in the catering folk. Just how they fed that many people on a round the clock schedule, and it was DAMN good food too! NOT MREs or C rations! Every meal was home cooked from scratch and fresh food. Damn, I was impressed! I could expound more but this thread is about FIRE not Food.

Subject: RE: BS: San Diego/California Wildfires Again
From: Janie
Date: 25 Oct 07 - 12:12 AM

When my bro-in-law in the Palisades e-mailed last night, he said they predicted the Malibu fire would be under full control by Friday. I see they are ahead of schedule on that one.

I take it you can breath a bit easier for now Amos? (both literally and figuratively.)

If you have a rainy season this year, when does it usually start? On average, how frequently do the Santa Ana winds occur?

Janie

Subject: RE: BS: San Diego/California Wildfires Again
From: Ron Davies
Date: 24 Oct 07 - 10:56 PM

Amos-

Really glad to hear you're doing OK so far. Hope that continues despite the unpredictable nature of the problem.

I heard last night on the radio that part of the reason for the severity of the fire is that the rainy season--October to about March-- just didn't happen at all last year--so everything has been just getting progressively drier for over a year now.   Is that accurate?

Subject: RE: BS: San Diego/California Wildfires Again
From: Edain
Date: 24 Oct 07 - 10:32 PM

I have to say, this brings back memories of the Cedar Fire, only this time I'm safely around the world. From what I hear from others though it seems the co-ordination of the emergence services is better this time. I hope the winds settle for you.

Subject: RE: BS: San Diego/California Wildfires Again
From: Áine
Date: 24 Oct 07 - 09:23 PM

Geez, Amos my darlin' -- this situation brings back memories!!

Wish I could send some of the rain that's been washing us away all year . . . but, since that's a logical no-go, I'll keep my fingers crossed and send all kinds of positive energy (non-flammable, of course!) your way.

Hugs to all of yours from all of mine, Áine

Subject: RE: BS: San Diego/California Wildfires Again
From: Sandra in Sydney
Date: 24 Oct 07 - 08:38 PM

I haven't read this thread for a day or so, all I knew was brief radio reports. Thanks to all those who posted links.

And best wishes to those in the fire areas.

Australia is heading into our fire season, but with our smaller population densities, we will never have so many people affected at once.

sandra

Subject: RE: BS: San Diego/California Wildfires Again
From: Bill D
Date: 24 Oct 07 - 07:40 PM

For those who care to follow fires, earthquakes, basic weather...etc...AND have broadband, there is a Windows program that retrieves data from around the world, and for specific locations within the US. I just added San Diego County to my copy, and I can see various updates and maps of San Diego and even fire warnings for the USA in general. It has lots of settings and choices for areas, types of events you wish to monitor and levels.

http://earthalerts.manyjourneys.com/>

Subject: RE: BS: San Diego/California Wildfires Again
From: Dave Swan
Date: 24 Oct 07 - 07:00 PM

Most drops are meant to paint the area ahead of the fire so as to retard its progress; therefore, they are made on fuel rather than flame.

Subject: RE: BS: San Diego/California Wildfires Again
From: Peace
Date: 24 Oct 07 - 06:17 PM

Water when it turns into steam expands to 1700 times its volume.

Subject: RE: BS: San Diego/California Wildfires Again
From: Sorcha
Date: 24 Oct 07 - 06:16 PM

And even when they dump all that water...it still looks like just a few drops when it hits the fire.

Subject: RE: BS: San Diego/California Wildfires Again
From: Amos
Date: 24 Oct 07 - 06:10 PM

No doubt. If they have a demo model we'd lovve to see it operating. I sent the link to Jerry Sanders, our lovely Mayor.


A

Subject: RE: BS: San Diego/California Wildfires Again
From: beardedbruce
Date: 24 Oct 07 - 04:24 PM

I saw the demo flight pictures a few years back- even if they are not in commercial operations, the publicity from using the test aircraft would be worth their while.


A 747 at 400 feet is impressive even before it dumps 24,000 gallons...

Subject: RE: BS: San Diego/California Wildfires Again
From: Bill D
Date: 24 Oct 07 - 04:18 PM

I can't imagine that ANYONE is not aware of the fires, and I assume that they are using all available planes that are safe to use in the various fire areas.

(the news last night said that larger craft were not safe in high winds at low altitudes, and were being held back)

Subject: RE: BS: San Diego/California Wildfires Again
From: Amos
Date: 24 Oct 07 - 04:10 PM

BRuce:

It does not appear from the website that the Evergreen Supertanker is actually deployed yet.


A

Subject: RE: BS: San Diego/California Wildfires Again
From: Amos
Date: 24 Oct 07 - 04:05 PM

Thanks, BB. I am sending this to the CIty Fathers.


A