BS: Nicknames or real names on Mudcat?

Subject: RE: BS: Nicknames or real names on Mudcat?
From: Donuel
Date: 31 Oct 07 - 12:54 AM

Yes in fact I do use a former real name on mudcat.

Subject: RE: BS: Nicknames or real names on Mudcat?
From: Joe Offer
Date: 31 Oct 07 - 12:40 AM

Well, I figure if I use my real name on Mudcat, I'll sell more CD's and get more gigs. But I've never, ever tried to record a CD or get a gig, so I don't know if my theory works. But sometimes, people say, "Oh, so you're Joe Offer."
I get satisfaction out of that.
-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS: Nicknames or real names on Mudcat?
From: M.Ted
Date: 30 Oct 07 - 11:20 PM

Who is Number 1?

Subject: RE: BS: Nicknames or real names on Mudcat?
From: Lepus Rex
Date: 30 Oct 07 - 11:03 PM

I just like tying everything I do online together with one name. As my real name (Will Anderson) is fairly generic, I don't use that. Anyone who cares to know my real name already does, anyways, and I'm not really concerned with people who dislike/distrust me because of it. Fuck suspicious/paranoid people. For some time, though, I have actually been meaning to sign my posts here as "Will," which I do everywhere else, just because typing "Lepus Rex" at the end of a post that's already labeled as having been writted by "Lepus Rex" is kind of redundant. Yet I continue to do so, without thinking, purely out of habit. Weird.

Anyways, since I've been using this nickname for, like, twelve years or so, it's actually been kind of fun watching my mid-late-90s posts from various corners of the web disappear. And I thought this stuff was supposed "live" forever?

---Lepus Rex

---Will

Subject: RE: BS: Nicknames or real names on Mudcat?
From: TRUBRIT
Date: 30 Oct 07 - 10:59 PM

As MMario said back a few posts -- to some of us, our Mudcat names are as real as our 'real' names -- everyone knows me as TruBrit -- my license plate, my email, my business name etc -- it is as much a part of me as the me who is Deborah Coward, (WHAT did you say that name was again -- Coward -- what? Coward -- like being afraid only I'm not.......it gets old)...!

Subject: RE: BS: Nicknames or real names on Mudcat?
From: Rowan
Date: 30 Oct 07 - 10:53 PM

'Ray, at uni I used to know a young lady from Sunshine (western suburbs of Melbourne) whose name was Rae; she rapidly learned to give people her other (also real) name.

Cheers, Rowan

Subject: RE: BS: Nicknames or real names on Mudcat?
From: number 6
Date: 30 Oct 07 - 09:34 PM

I'm not a number ... I'm a free man.

biLL

Subject: RE: BS: Nicknames or real names on Mudcat?
From: GUEST,'Ray Bucknell
Date: 30 Oct 07 - 08:15 PM

I attended Bucknell University, where the fight song began, "'Ray Bucknell, 'ray Bucknell, 'ray for the orange and the blue...."    I'm probably known as a guest now because my cookies are lot, but I've been posting here (albeit inconsistently) using this pseudonym for well over five years.    You can call me 'Ray, but in real life I'm a girl.

                                     'Ray

Subject: RE: BS: Nicknames or real names on Mudcat?
From: M.Ted
Date: 30 Oct 07 - 03:33 PM

It's pretty hard to slip anything past McGrath--though that tortured soul/melancholic poet business used to be a standard routine on the coffeehouse circuit--we all wore berets at one time or another--

Subject: RE: BS: Nicknames or real names on Mudcat?
From: John Hardly
Date: 30 Oct 07 - 11:07 AM

My real name is Pierce Brosnan. I protect my privacy with the John Hardly thing.

Subject: RE: BS: Nicknames or real names on Mudcat?
From: TheSnail
Date: 30 Oct 07 - 11:01 AM

Jim Carroll

I don't use my real name because I deserted from the trenches in 1917

Well,I hope you are going to give a full and honest account of this episode in your autobiography. We all want to know the man not the legend.

Subject: RE: BS: Nicknames or real names on Mudcat?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 30 Oct 07 - 10:27 AM

Much better. I'll be calling round Nick, and you're in for it.

A whole night watching my amusing colour slides of places my satnav took me by mistake. Jim Carrol has taught me a traditional folksong, and I can ignore the common decencies and perform it until you scream, No more! I beg you!

them as die will be the lucky ones! (Long John Silver)

Subject: RE: BS: Nicknames or real names on Mudcat?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 30 Oct 07 - 09:39 AM

"Obviously LeTenebreux is a "handle"."

In the words of Gérard de Nerval:

Je suis le ténébreux,- le Veuf, - l'inconsolé,
Le Prince d'Aquitaine à la tour abolie:
Ma seule étoile est morte, et mon luth constellé
Porte le soleil noir de la Mélancolie.

Dans la nuit du Tombeau, Toi qui m'as consolé,
Rends-moi le Pausilippe et la mer d'Italie,
La fleur qui plaisait tant à mon coeur désolé,
Et la treille où le Pampre à la rose s'allie.

Suis-je Amour ou Phoebus ?.... Lusignan ou Biron ?
Mon front est rouge encor du baiser de la Reine ;
J'ai rêvé dans la grotte où nage la Sirène...

Et j'ai deux fois vainqueur traversé l'Achéron :
Modulant tour à tour sur la lyre d'Orphée
Les soupirs de la Sainte et les cris de la Fée.

Subject: RE: BS: Nicknames or real names on Mudcat?
From: Nick
Date: 30 Oct 07 - 09:19 AM

>>It doesn't make you feel unwanted when nobody can be arsed to stalk you. If anybody out there would like to be stalked, we could have a mutual sort of thing going - I'll stalk you, if you'll stalk me.

I know where you live. (He said threateningly)

Does that make you feel better?

I use my own name to avoid people thinking I want to be called something else. Perhaps I'll adopt a nickname for the sake of it - Horizontal Jogger is high on the list at the moment

Subject: RE: BS: Nicknames or real names on Mudcat?
From: gnu
Date: 30 Oct 07 - 07:55 AM

Spaw: "...but I think some names come with a certain preconceived "idea" of the person which may cloud the thinking of those reading their posts."

Yup. Although some some are spot on.

Subject: RE: BS: Nicknames or real names on Mudcat?
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 30 Oct 07 - 07:05 AM

Yup Spaw, some surnames only work in one language :)
G.

Subject: RE: BS: Nicknames or real names on Mudcat?
From: nickp
Date: 30 Oct 07 - 07:00 AM

But 'Nick' IS my real name - and by derivation I suppose my nickname too!

Subject: RE: NIcknames or real names on Mudcat?
From: catspaw49
Date: 30 Oct 07 - 06:55 AM

Ya' know............

This topic comes up in one form or another several times a year it seems. I've been around here somewhere just shy of forever and I understand the concerns I suppose but I am more concerned that someone uses a consistent name. When I signed on here it was about split with real and pseudos but I had used mine elsewhere where safety was certainly an issue so I used it here because at the time it seemed a good idea. Almost 10 years later, ALL (and I do mean ALL) of the details of my life and my family are on these threads including all the boilerplate data except for my SS number. You can even find links (probably dead now, but they were there) to CAT scan and other medical data including an aortagram and a colonoscopy for chrissakes.

I still use catspaw49 as a sign in to many websites but around here. It was shortened way back when to "Spaw" and most older 'Catters use that name rather than Pat when we talk in 3D. I do agree with Bill D. (not too surprising) but I think some names come with a certain preconceived "idea" of the person which may cloud the thinking of those reading their posts.

Here's a funny little story about this........Wait......Let me have you do the "research"..............PM one of our wonderful German 'Catters, "Wolfgang." See if he won't come onto this thread an tell you why he changed his handle to just plain Wolfgang.

Spaw (;<))

Subject: RE: NIcknames or real names on Mudcat?
From: Santa
Date: 30 Oct 07 - 06:23 AM

Jim: it may well have been your comment; it was not something that struck sparks immediately but came bubbling up to the surface later, and I haven't gone searching for the original quote. Who said it doesn't seem relevant: unless perhaps he/she turned out to be the only person who feels that way? However, it stirred enough disquiet in me to suspect others felt the same way. I don't normally have any problem living with this pseudonym, it does provide a certain amount of light-hearted banter. But when faced directly with the question "why use a pseudonym?" I am left wondering if the real question is "what am I hiding". Nothing deliberate, honest....so why not use my given name?

Mistrust, dislike, lack of comfort, or whatever, that's still the question. I wonder if this is something that affects the "differentially young" more than others. Other than filmstars or newspaper/magazine columnists, in previous decades you were less likely to come up against people using other than their real names for honest purposes. I don't think that I met many deserters - but then I wouldn't know, would I?

Subject: RE: NIcknames or real names on Mudcat?
From: theleveller
Date: 30 Oct 07 - 04:42 AM

My use of theleveller came about by accident. I use it whenever I sign in anywhere online because I can never remember which version of my real name I'd used (Pete Thompson, P Thompson, Peter Thompson etc.) and when I posted on the BBC board, that's what came up as my name, so I stuck with it. I like it because it suits my political and anti-royalist views. Ironically, Oliver Cromwell said of the leader of The Levellers, 'Honest John' Lilburne that, if he were the only person left alive in the world, John would argue with Lilburne. Hmmmmm.

Subject: RE: NIcknames or real names on Mudcat?
From: Gurney
Date: 30 Oct 07 - 04:00 AM

Gurney IS a nickname, but one from my preteens, so no-one but me remembers it. I use it as a pen name and identification name in all my browsing. If anyone Googles it, you will only get some of my Mudcat posts and a lot about other people, not me.
I only started using it, before I joined Mudcat, because pseudonyms seemed to be de rigueur on line. My own name is already taken on my provider. I use my personal name on the Personal Page with members.

To answer the question: No, a personal name would not make me add any weight to anyone's comments, since I only know about 6 members personally. However, reading Mudcat posts several days a week, I feel I know most regular posters under their Mudcat names well enough to have discourse with them.

Subject: RE: NIcknames or real names on Mudcat?
From: GUEST,Jim Carroll
Date: 30 Oct 07 - 03:09 AM

I don't use my real name because I deserted from the trenches in 1917 and am worried that the authorities might still be looking for me. Have managed to keep clear of them so far, but the problem is everybody insists on talking about my nickname instead of my work.
I raised the questing of names on another thread; don't know if it was my comment which sparked this off, but the question of 'dislike' or 'distrust' does not come into my attitude. I feel more comfortable having serious conversations with real people rather than Santas or Slugs or Cap'ns or whoever.
Ewan Zimmerman Handle III (aka Jim Carroll)

Subject: RE: NIcknames or real names on Mudcat?
From: Joe_F
Date: 30 Oct 07 - 12:13 AM

My real name is Joseph Clinton Fineman. I have gone by the nicknames Joe & F; hence, Joe_F. How I came to be called F in some circles is a complicated story.

Subject: RE: NIcknames or real names on Mudcat?
From: LeTenebreux
Date: 29 Oct 07 - 10:12 PM

Obviously LeTenebreux is a "handle". I don't like to be cavalier about revealing my identity in cyberspace. If someone really wanted to find out who I was I guess they could trace my IP or something...good luck with that.
You never know who might read your posts, ya know? (Bosses, exes,parents...whatever)

Subject: RE: NIcknames or real names on Mudcat?
From: Celtaddict
Date: 29 Oct 07 - 09:55 PM

Jon Bartlett, a most interesting reason to use your own name!
Tootler, I love the idea that you think the other Tootler was you but can't be sure.
I have used the same Mudcat name since joining several years ago, and rather like the idea that when I post, people read what I have said then and there, uncolored by ideas of age, place, gender, or musical credentials except what is in the post or what they know of me from other posts. There are a number of folks who tend to be on the same threads I am and we have gotten to know each other fairly well online; some of these I have met; I have met a number of Mudcatters in person. Sometimes I will be talking to someone that I know in 'real life' as well as online and know both their names, but they are surprised to find I am 'celtaddict' and that always gives me a laugh for some reason. I have given my 'live' name to a number of 'Cat friends of course, but still rather like the relative anonymity of a pseudonym. If I disagree in a civil discussion, I can disagree civilly, and if a thread descends to insults, I am out of there.    I may disagree with someone but don't get into arguments or 'shots across the bow' because life is just too short.

Subject: RE: NIcknames or real names on Mudcat?
From: maeve
Date: 29 Oct 07 - 06:55 PM

"exact identy" of course should be "exact identity".

Sigh...

maeve

Subject: RE: NIcknames or real names on Mudcat?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 29 Oct 07 - 06:48 PM

ah! I always thought you maybe wore Tootal ties when you were a kid and it had traumatised you. There were a lot of them about.

Subject: RE: NIcknames or real names on Mudcat?
From: Tootler
Date: 29 Oct 07 - 06:21 PM

On other sites:

I tried my first name but someone got there first

So I added the initial of my surname - no good

So I stuck the number of my house on the end. That worked for a while until eBay said someone had got there first, so I used a nickname for eBay and still needed two attempts.

I wasn't entirely happy with the nickname I used on eBay, so when I signed up for Mudcat, I used "Tootler" as my wife refers to my playing of the recorder and other blowy things as "tootling".

I have used Tootler since on other music forums and mostly it's been OK. U-Tube didn't like Tootler, but I went in via Google and I have a sneaking suspicion that the "other" Tootler may have been me, but there's no way of checking, so I'm "TootlinGeoff on U-Tube".

Geoff

Subject: RE: NIcknames or real names on Mudcat?
From: maeve
Date: 29 Oct 07 - 06:18 PM

Returning to the subject of the thread as posted by the member known as Santa, I don't place any particular expectations based on what sort of name a poster uses, as long as it is, according to the current reasonable requirement, consistant. The exception might be, as McGrath of Harlow noted earlier, a name with such negative connotations that I would tend to ignore said person's posts completely.

And often, I have found user names here do indeed indicate something meaningful about the personality, if not the exact identy, of the poster. I like that!

maeve, who always says what she means and means what she says!

Subject: RE: NIcknames or real names on Mudcat?
From: PoppaGator
Date: 29 Oct 07 - 06:04 PM

I always got a kick out of Martin Gibson, even though our social/political viewpoints were usually polar opposites. Even his most extreme right-wing-nut posts could make for interesting reading, since his peculiar personal slant was generally quite different from the standard unthinking "dittohead" party line. Martin may have been offensive and shortsighted, but at least he was a one-of-a-kind original ~ a Jewish citydweller (Chicago) with a taste for bluegrass music and Bible-Belt politics.

Now, maybe I would feel differently if he had ever singled ME out for one of his crude personal attacks, but I don't recall that he ever did.

Or did he? If he had, I'd like to think it wouldn't have bothered me, especially with both he and I being essentially anonymous. I'd also like to think that I would not have "risen to the bait" and inspired him to continue trading insults.

Anyway, when we was discussing music and intruments rather than politics and sociology, he was usually interesting and articulate, and seemed quite knowledgeable.

Plus which, he came up with a truly excellent Mudcat name, perhaps the best pseudonym imaginable for a folk-guitar enthusiast. Too bad no one else can adopt that name now, because like a true skunk, he has indelibly marked it as his own territory...

Subject: RE: NIcknames or real names on Mudcat?
From: Rowan
Date: 29 Oct 07 - 05:57 PM

G'day Santa. I must say I was a bit wary of your name at first as it seemed to me you were likely to have only a seasonally ephemeral appearance on Mudcat. Either that, or you were a devil worshipper with dyslexia. But you've kept posting and I've seen no evidence of dyslexia, so I can shelve my initially negative reactions.

Have fun and keep it up!

Cheers, Rowan

Subject: RE: NIcknames or real names on Mudcat?
From:
Date: 29 Oct 07 - 05:51 PM

I use my real name and including my e-mail. I've had no problems over the years with any amount of Spam. I get some SPAM but there's enough filters that most of it doesn't get through the IP's SPAM filters.

Subject: RE: NIcknames or real names on Mudcat?
From: topical tom
Date: 29 Oct 07 - 05:28 PM

I chose the Mudcat name of topical tom because I especially enjoy topical songs which make comments on news and issues of the day,well, not always of the present day.Tom was chosen purely for the alliteration.
    I value privacy and, if I wish, I can always reveal my identity to
select Mudcatters.

Subject: RE: NIcknames or real names on Mudcat?
From: Herga Kitty
Date: 29 Oct 07 - 05:08 PM

My Mudcat name just advertises the folk club I've been going to since I was 15 (though I haven't made it there this evening, unfortunately). Anyone can find out my real name by going to the folk club website... and some people who used to come to the folk club many years ago have realised that they used to know me, even if they are now in the States or Australia!

Kitty

Subject: RE: NIcknames or real names on Mudcat?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 29 Oct 07 - 05:08 PM

He was okay was Martin. made me laugh once or twice. But he did upset people - it must be said. And he never really GOT the English sense of humour. Sir jOhn, who had the rest of in hysterics, seemed to arouse his particular ire.

I sort of empathised with Martin. Like me, he totally miscalculated the location of where peoples' sense of humour started.

It doesn't make you feel unwanted when nobody can be arsed to stalk you. If anybody out there would like to be stalked, we could have a mutual sort of thing going - I'll stalk you, if you'll stalk me.

Subject: RE: NIcknames or real names on Mudcat?
From: Bert
Date: 29 Oct 07 - 04:57 PM

I was going to say that Prince Charles posts under the name of DougR. But it's not true, Doug is a NICE person.

Subject: RE: NIcknames or real names on Mudcat?
From: Bill D
Date: 29 Oct 07 - 04:40 PM

"...a temptation to many .... who'd like to put an anonymous shot across the bows of someone...."

We have had our share of those! The infamous 'Martin Gibson' was a 'loose cannon' shooting across bows for 2-3 years. I don't think anyone ever positively identified him...and it's probably a good thing.

He did as much to give a bad ...ummm... name....to anonymity as anyone.


I notice the quiet everyday now that he's gone.

Subject: RE: NIcknames or real names on Mudcat?
From: MaineDog
Date: 29 Oct 07 - 04:34 PM

When I first joined Mudcat there was a lot of flaming and hatefulness going on, and I thought it would be wise not to use my real name. When I told my wife about it she disapproved, so I continued to use MaineDog.
I have left enough hints around so that Catters who know me in the real world can figure out who I am, and I enjoy the game. BTW, I have never posted as guest or by any other name.

MD

Subject: RE: NIcknames or real names on Mudcat?
From: Jon Bartlett
Date: 29 Oct 07 - 03:53 PM

I think the opportunity to use an alias is a temptation to many (including me) who'd like to put an anonymous shot across the bows of someone they don't approve of. I use my real name to keep this impulse in check.

Jon Bartlett

Subject: RE: NIcknames or real names on Mudcat?
From: Bee-dubya-ell
Date: 29 Oct 07 - 03:47 PM

I use a nickname, obviously, but I don't think it makes any difference as to what value others place upon my contibutions. My posts would be just as worthless, uninformed, and full of shit if I were using my real name.

Subject: RE: NIcknames or real names on Mudcat?
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 29 Oct 07 - 03:01 PM

I would likely have used an "alternate" name, although my present mudcat registration - and name - was created for me by a beloved other person.

My "real name" is effectively useless for purposes of identification, since there's already another person here using it, and at least one other here (using a webname) who has the same "real name."

Since my last name is even more common than my first, anyone who might Google "my name" would find a long line of evangelists, serial killers, politicians (in decreasing order of degenerate reputation - although there are the occasional other rocket scientists, nuclear physicists and brain surgeons as well). My own sterling accomplishments would appear only in the other "289,734,629,432 items found" by Google that one can never access.

By using my mudcat name, I am uniquely identified here - a quite different situation than the anonymity and confusion that would appear if I tried to use my "real name." You can Google my mudcat name and find a few results for ME, although even there, there are many others using the same name. (Only the ones on mudcat are mine.)

I just wish the "other guy" with my name would get over his(?) lingerie fetish, so I'd quit getting all the spam from those French (Canadian?) companies. I've received nothing but French language spam (which I can't read, except laboriously and inaccurately) for more than a year now. Even the Nigerians ignore me (unless they're French-speaking Nigerians who wear lovely lace panties).

John

Subject: RE: NIcknames or real names on Mudcat?
From: GUEST,Les in Chorlton
Date: 29 Oct 07 - 01:04 PM

I always use Les in Chorlton so that nobody will guess who I am or where I live.

ps Chorlton Folk Club Thursday Nights at the Cricket Club Chorlton

Subject: RE: NIcknames or real names on Mudcat?
From: Art Thieme
Date: 29 Oct 07 - 01:02 PM

I'm still alive, and being here, with my real name, proves that to me every time I come here even if it does feel like a limbo of sorts since I became unable to make folk music. I need to say THANK YOU to so many --- for all of it!
Art

Subject: RE: NIcknames or real names on Mudcat?
From: john f weldon
Date: 29 Oct 07 - 12:55 PM

When I signed up to youTube, I made up a pseudonym & even created a new mailbox just for youTube (which they swear they never reveal). "lepenseurdeux" if anyone cares.
However, 90% of the spam I get comes from the youTube mailbox anyway. So what's the point? Everywhere else, including mudcat, I'm myself, so far without problems.

However, nicknames are kinda fun. Maybe I shoulda bin "Melodious Hunk". Sigh, too late now.

Subject: RE: NIcknames or real names on Mudcat?
From: GUEST,BB
Date: 29 Oct 07 - 12:32 PM

Concerning Santa's pondering: "I asked whether the use of a pseudonym creates some kind of negative bias against the ideas expressed."

I think that would vary with the reader of the thread. Some might speak negatively of folks "hiding" behind a pseudonym with the complaint, "Well, how do you know who you're dealing with?" Indeed, how do we know even if the person posts her/his real name? We don't know, except by reading the writer's postings. All we have to go on, when writing to folks we've never met, is the consistency of their responses. Personally, I don't think it matters one whit if the poster uses a birth name, a nickname or a totally fake name, as long as he/she is consistent in name use. It's the consistency that allows us to determine the worth (this is subjective, too) of the poster's opinion.

The only drawback I have experienced from using pseudonyms is that occasionally, one meets a Mudcatter in person, say, at a festival or house concert or folk club. We all are introduced to each other with our "real" names, and don't find out until much later that we had been chatting online in Mudcat. In other words, we "knew" each other already... and didn't realize it!

My 2 cents, for what it's worth.
~Barbara

Subject: RE: NIcknames or real names on Mudcat?
From: Santa
Date: 29 Oct 07 - 12:24 PM

Amos:why'd you have to embarrass these good people? I did point out that I wasn't very well known on Mudcat - not a regular-enough poster for that. Yes, I was thankful for the good wishes.

Mercedes deliveries are sub-contracted to R Dennis Inc. Like Lewis Hamilton's championship - why do you think Santa wears red? That's a yellow shield with a black prancing reindeer on the side of his sled.......

Reindeer handling is sub-contracted to the Cairngorms Reindeer Centre. Seriously for a moment, this is a wonderful small organisation that deserves support. Adopt a reindeer: our family favourite Alaska died recently so we'll have to make the trip up to find another.

Azizi: I think that what you are concerned about borders on the honest/dishonest use of pseudonyms, but in general people are more willing to announce support of a cause than actually stand up and participate. Partly because there are so many good causes, and so little time. I think it only becomes dishonest when people act in the opposite manner to their claims, rather than not truly participating.

Subject: RE: NIcknames or real names on Mudcat?
From: Rasener
Date: 29 Oct 07 - 12:19 PM

I think Santa has to stop coming down the chimney. I have a job explaining to the children.

Subject: RE: NIcknames or real names on Mudcat?
From: Jim Krause
Date: 29 Oct 07 - 12:09 PM

I also use my real name. I used to use a pseudonym, but the Catters from the UK thought I was cussing, or otherwise speaking ill of some folks. And if some one wanted to cyber stalk me, it wouldn't be difficult at all, as I'm all over the internet. (Ever try googling yourself?) Fortunately, there is at least one other Jim Krause who is as prolific on the 'net as I am, so I have a 50/50 chance of dodging a stalker. So far, no one has bothered me. I'm pretty handy with the delete key.

JimK

Subject: RE: NIcknames or real names on Mudcat?
From: Azizi
Date: 29 Oct 07 - 12:03 PM

I am sure Santa enjoys being welcomed, and all, but I should mention he has been posting here since 2002.

Oh, well then at least you know you're still welcomed, Santa. And btw, in the last two years there's been a number of reindeer running round my city neighborhood-which is down right weird. I think the housing boom is taking over their homes. But I haven't seen any red nosed reindeer yet.

Subject: RE: NIcknames or real names on Mudcat?
From: Peace
Date: 29 Oct 07 - 11:55 AM

Yeah. Well he fu#ked up his deliveries then, too.