Stealing gigs from the pro's

Subject: RE: Stealing gigs from the pro's
From: oggie
Date: 14 Nov 07 - 05:31 PM

I know I keep going on about "business" but that's what it boils down to. Clubs/venues that lose money close, acts that don't make a living find something else to do, large groups don't play many clubs because few clubs can afford the fee a three or four person group needs to keep going. A lot of the young groups are playing festivals because they can afford the fees, ditto Arts Centres who have enough seats to generate the revenue.

Paul's point (Banjiman) is subtle but I agree, clubs provide the building/enviroment (ie "the theatre") in which the artist can work. No organisers, no "theatres" equals no gigs.

It is also business that some acts command higher fees than others, the public will pay more to see some acts than others, sorry Capn but unless you are advocating that organisers pay more expensive acts from their own pocket (why should they?) or that somehow people will pay over the odds for less expensive acts it won't work in the long term.

Banjiman is doing a superb job of trying to set up his club but also bear in mind that his landlord has also taken a hard headed business decision. Paul has sold him the proposition and he's said to himself "Down the road this is good business and I'll make money from it".

All the best

Steve

Subject: RE: Stealing gigs from the pro's
From: Banjiman
Date: 14 Nov 07 - 05:26 PM

KFFC jumble sale coming up!

Captain Birdseye...are you serious? You must be on the wind up?

Subject: RE: Stealing gigs from the pro's
From: The Sandman
Date: 14 Nov 07 - 05:21 PM

Well Snail,this system was used for years,and still is used and works well.
Iam saying punters should pay the same for every guest,in those clubs that operate membership,the members[once they have paid membership get in cheaper]a sort of loyalty payment,the more times they come and support the club,the more value they get.
YES I do believe,that if you Bryan Creer,are good enough to do a gig,thenThe punters should pay the same price as for any other guest.
I did my first gig in 1976,at TheKingston upon ThamesFolkClub,[JimMageean and AnniFentiman were in the audience and did floor spots],the place was packed[as it was at that time every week],regardless of guests,a month later Tony Rose[an established artist]was on,it cost the SAME to get in.
Snail,you had better get your head round it because that was how it was: in the days when folkclubs were packed,I dont know how long yoyuhave been involved,but I have been going to clubs since 1965.DickMiles

Subject: RE: Stealing gigs from the pro's
From: TheSnail
Date: 14 Nov 07 - 05:19 PM

Captain Birdseye

How you raise the money, to pay for guests is up to the organiser,he can subsidise guest nights by having singers nights,or even fundraising events like ceilidhs/ garden fetes,

I must be getting tired, I'd slipped past that bit. You call yourself a professional and you want us to hold charity fund raisers to pay your fee? Stuff that for a game of soldiers.

Subject: RE: Stealing gigs from the pro's
From: Banjiman
Date: 14 Nov 07 - 05:15 PM

without a venue, audience and musician (doesn't have to be that order)we don't have a club....we are all dependent on each other and we all get something out of it or we wouldn't do it.....if one part of this equation is wrong it doesn't work.

Subject: RE: Stealing gigs from the pro's
From: Banjiman
Date: 14 Nov 07 - 05:10 PM

Bryan....yes, absolutely.....and how do we do that?

Subject: RE: Stealing gigs from the pro's
From: TheSnail
Date: 14 Nov 07 - 05:09 PM

Banjiman

the whole point of folk clubs is to provide a theatre for the musician

Have to disagree with you there Banjiman, I think the whole point of folk clubs is to provide entertainment for the paying public from whoever is able to provide it.

Subject: RE: Stealing gigs from the pro's
From: TheSnail
Date: 14 Nov 07 - 05:06 PM

PoppaGator

I looked at some of the pictures (not all), and have absolutely no idea what's going on,

That's all right, neither have most of the participants.

Subject: RE: Stealing gigs from the pro's
From: TheSnail
Date: 14 Nov 07 - 05:02 PM

Captain Birdseye

Snail,I am not advocating paying artists the same fee,I am advocating that doorprices should be the same for all guests.

I'm really struggling to get my head round this. Do you actually believe that punters should be expected to pay the same to see, for instance, me as they should to see, for instance, Martin Carthy? Or are you saying that, because I'm not as good as Martin Carthy, I shouldn't be allowed to perform at all? If we set a fixed ticket price between the two extremes, we lose on MC because we don't cover his fee and we lose on me because nobody turns up at all.
Alternatively, if we sell out both nights, part of what people paid to see me goes to pay MC. Is that fair?

Subject: RE: Stealing gigs from the pro's
From: Brendy
Date: 14 Nov 07 - 04:55 PM

If I were to have charged venues the 15% over the years, instead of just putting people in contact with each other, well, the villa in the Caribbean would be where I would be sitting now.

Brilliant, Villan!
We're all philanthropists

B.

Subject: RE: Stealing gigs from the pro's
From: Rasener
Date: 14 Nov 07 - 04:51 PM

If I wanted to get rich at this game, I wouldn't do it.
Most organisers including myself do it for nowt.

Subject: RE: Stealing gigs from the pro's
From: Rasener
Date: 14 Nov 07 - 04:48 PM

We now offer a guarantee and 80% of the door, I now ask/negotiate with the performer what would be an acceptable ticket price that they would be happy with.
There are a number of performers who say immediately what the door price must be.

Subject: RE: Stealing gigs from the pro's
From: Brendy
Date: 14 Nov 07 - 04:48 PM

"the whole point of folk clubs is to provide a theatre for the musician"

If only that were the case all the time, Banjiman.

"Looking at your website, this seems to be more of your experience?"
No, it is not my experience, actually.

If I wanted to get rich at this game, I would have done so a long time ago.

B.

Subject: RE: Stealing gigs from the pro's
From: PoppaGator
Date: 14 Nov 07 - 04:46 PM

Dwyle Flunking?

I don't think we have that in the US, and would appreciate more info. I looked at some of the pictures (not all), and have absolutely no idea what's going on, except that everyone seems to be having a good time, most likely due to their high degree of intoxication.

Not that there's anything wrong with that...

Subject: RE: Stealing gigs from the pro's
From: Banjiman
Date: 14 Nov 07 - 04:30 PM

Subject: RE: Stealing gigs from the pro's
From: TheSnail
Date: 14 Nov 07 - 04:29 PM

GUEST, Anon

It also does not guarantee fair terms for artists - who are professionals and deserve a proper deal.

I'm sorry, but why does calling yourself professional entitle you to any special treatment? Surely it puts you under an even greater obligation to deliver the goods.

Thanks Maryrrf and Jim Lad. It's nice to know that someone doesn't see us as unscrupulous and complacent.

Subject: RE: Stealing gigs from the pro's
From: Banjiman
Date: 14 Nov 07 - 04:26 PM

Brendy,

I think the attributes you ask of a club organiser are the same as are required by a successful musician, a successful salesman, a successful ....well anything really....it's funny your (quoted) comment regarding the musician being a low man on the totem pole....I really cannot see things like this, the whole point of folk clubs is to provide a theatre for the musician (pro, semi-pro or amateur).

How can that put the musician at the bottom of the pole?

Probably a different argument in a more commercial setting, where the aim of the venue is to make money not music. Looking at your website, this seems to be more of your experience?

Subject: RE: Stealing gigs from the pro's
From: The Sandman
Date: 14 Nov 07 - 04:22 PM

folk club organisers ,put in a lot of hard work,which I appreciate,and some of them notably Ted and Ivy Poole[Swindon]have done it for nearly fifty years,fair play to them.
Snail,I am not advocating paying artists the same fee,I am advocating that doorprices should be the same for all guests. after that,
How you raise the money, to pay for guests is up to the organiser,he can subsidise guest nights by having singers nights,or even fundraising events like ceilidhs/ garden fetes,it has been tried and proved successful,so it doesnt have to be as: you are trying to say robbing one artist to pay for another.
I remember Alex Campbell,handing back part of his fee[the percentage part of the door]and taking his guaranteed fee only ,saying to the organiser,keep that for the club.
and more recently Tony Wilson giving his fee from Stockton folk club,back so that the club could get something to help Ron Angel with his post hospitalisation.
I have just visted Lowestoft folk clubs website,where Tom Mconville and David Wood are priced at 4 pounds,and Cockersdale are priced at 5 pounds, in my opinion both these groups are extremely good,highly professional, both have to come a long way ,and both of whom I would enjoy equally,so why the difference in price,what it says subconsciously is that one is better than the other[which is not so].
now every organiser has a right to run things their way,but if it was me[in Tom Mconville or any of the other 4 pound artists], Iwould be extremely pissed off.
I have played this club several times and had good evenings[on one occasion I sold 14 recordings]Their website is very good,and am sure in every other way the club is still very well run,and is a good club.

Subject: RE: Stealing gigs from the pro's
From: TheSnail
Date: 14 Nov 07 - 04:19 PM

M.Ted

Many folk clubs, and folk music related activities seem to take place in pubs. Is this typical in the UK?

Yes.

Dwyle Flunking. I'm the one with the shotgun. The one with the chicken on her head is Valmai Goodyear.

Subject: RE: Stealing gigs from the pro's
From: Brendy
Date: 14 Nov 07 - 04:08 PM

Yes.... sorry about that; I spotted it, but thought ......

.... anyway...., I believe the attitude by the organiser (venue owner) is vital. An open, forward-looking, energetic person is needed, because at the bottom line is the human being, and communication is important.

Robbie Robertson famously said in 'The Last Waltz' that "...the musician is the low man on the totem-pole".
It's too often true with less than scrupulous venues.

I spend quite a lot of my time 'organising' as well; keeping together a scene over two countries, where before 'our' arrival there was nothing, except the overwhelming belief among the natives that Mike Scott and The Waterboys, The Pogues, and U2 was what one called 'Irish Music'.

No, Banjiman, I'm not criticising you.
I'm criticising the complacency in general.

B.

Subject: RE: Stealing gigs from the pro's
From: Banjiman
Date: 14 Nov 07 - 03:52 PM

Brendy...

"I'm not criticising those who actually do get their finger out, and judging by the language of your second paragraph, you are not one of those. "

Can I just check...you do not think I'm getting my finger out?

Subject: RE: Stealing gigs from the pro's
From: TheSnail
Date: 14 Nov 07 - 03:47 PM

GUEST, Anon

All the organiser can sell is the artist's ABILITY!

No we can't because we can't put that up on a website or leaflet or poster. All we can sell is your track record. Only YOU can sell your ability.

Subject: RE: Stealing gigs from the pro's
From: Brendy
Date: 14 Nov 07 - 03:36 PM

"But like shoddy venues, they will not survive"

Exactly.
Shoddy musicians should be avoided at all costs.

Look, Banjiman, I'm watching complaints given by musicians about the system they work within.
I would sincerely hope that this kind of attitude isn't endemic within the Folk scene.

I'm not criticising those who actually do get their finger out, and judging by the language of your second paragraph, you are not one of those.

But there is a problem out there.
Get annoyed if you must...

B.

Subject: RE: Stealing gigs from the pro's
From: Banjiman
Date: 14 Nov 07 - 03:21 PM

Brendy....there are also some pretty shoddy musicians as well who don't do much to help promote their gigs. But like shoddy venues, they will not survive.

Do you not think that generally there is a good partnership between act & venue?....that is my experience as part of an act and I will strive to make it the case now I have set up a venue.

Most "folk" venues in the UK will certainly have their own websites and mailing lists....and often many other marketing tools as well....you are starting to annoy me now!!!!

Subject: RE: Stealing gigs from the pro's
From: GUEST, Anon
Date: 14 Nov 07 - 03:18 PM

Maryrrf, we all know that, and if you look above there are been plenty of comments to that effect in amongst (and I'm for ever championing folk club organisers elsewhere) - but not all organisers are as effective as you, some actually don't make much effort if truth be told, and, sadly, working very hard, loving the music, and being a nice person etc may not be enough to save a club. It also does not guarantee fair terms for artists - who are professionals and deserve a proper deal. These issues do need to be raised, and if no-one ever does just because of the reasons you mention, things will not improve.

Subject: RE: Stealing gigs from the pro's
From: Banjiman
Date: 14 Nov 07 - 03:15 PM

MTed....oh yes, folky activities in pubs is completely traditional and they are still the mainstay venues of Folk Clubs in the UK......I'm very pleased to say.

Paul

Subject: RE: Stealing gigs from the pro's
From: Brendy
Date: 14 Nov 07 - 03:13 PM

The organiser should be selling the folk-club first and foremost, in my opinion.

Musicians have websites; they often have their own mailing lists as well. If the artist is prepared to go to those lengths to promote him/herself, and associate themselves with the venues they play at, then it behoves the organiser to keep up his end of the bargain.

Badly run places are 2 a penny, and any self-respecting musician will stay away from them. It can be bad for their image, self and other aspects of it.

B.

Subject: RE: Stealing gigs from the pro's
From: Jim Lad
Date: 14 Nov 07 - 03:11 PM

"could somebody please give them credit for doing a whole lot of work for no pay" Damn right. I'll say it again.....
Hats off to the club organizers & volunteers. I will never understand what you get out of it yourselves but I am certainly beholding to you.

Subject: RE: Stealing gigs from the pro's
From: M.Ted
Date: 14 Nov 07 - 03:06 PM

I have gone to The Snail's link, and found that, in addition to his folk club, the Lewes Arms seems to be a nexus of Dwyle Flonging (which seems a laudable and noble endeavor). It brings to mind a question-which I hope will not be interpreted as being critical of this cultural institution.

Many folk clubs, and folk music related activities seem to take place in pubs. Is this typical in the UK?

Subject: RE: Stealing gigs from the pro's
From: GUEST, Anon
Date: 14 Nov 07 - 03:02 PM

"in the end, all that the organiser can sell is the artist's pulling power"

No no no - that's excatly where I'm disagreeing with you.

All the organiser can sell is the artist's ABILITY!

Subject: RE: Stealing gigs from the pro's
From: Maryrrf
Date: 14 Nov 07 - 03:02 PM

I can't help but feel here that the folk club organizers are taking a beating and being subjected to a lot of criticisn - could somebody please give them credit for doing a whole lot of work for no pay and very little reward, except the hope that their efforts will keep folk music alive at a grassroots level??? Reading this thread they must be feeling that they are 'damned if they do and damned if they don't'. I've been in both positions - performer and concert organizer. Of course it is incumbent upon both to drum up as much of an audience as they can. The best scenario is if the club organizer can do as much local promotion as possible, and the artist can e-mail or otherwise inform his/her fans of upcoming gigs. I only do a monthly concert series and between the website, making sure I get notices out to appropriate publications, flyers, bookings, etc. it takes up a LOT of time. We try to keep our ticket prices the same but IF we have a bigger name guest who charges a bit more, we do slightly increase the ticket price, and I make no apologies for that. We try to have a mix of well known and unknown performers, and book based on what we like, what we think our audience will like, and also try to achieve a 'balance' in our acts - i.e. instrumental acts, singers, etc. We only want traditional performers - we make no bones about it and state it clearly on our website. Again, no apologies - that was why we started the series. Yes there are things you can do to ensure a good, steady attendance, but there are times when no matter what - people just don't seem to show up and it's hard to predict. A couple of times when that has happened and the artist had agreed upon a percentage of the door, we dipped into the kitty and paid them a reasonable sum even though they didn't 'draw' an audience. Anyway, I really think we should give these folk club organizers a break and thank them for their efforts. They do a lot of work, make no money from it and I would wager that at times they have reached into their own pockets to subsidize the clubs from time to time. Not only that, they have to deal with venue problems, landlord issues, etc. It's very often a thankless task, and I doubt anybody would choose to do it unless they truly loved folk music.

Subject: RE: Stealing gigs from the pro's
From: TheSnail
Date: 14 Nov 07 - 03:01 PM

Brendy, the three men don't cover the fee and the parrot gets in free.

Subject: RE: Stealing gigs from the pro's
From: Brendy
Date: 14 Nov 07 - 02:52 PM

"we pay our guests from the money we take on the door".

Excellent!

The more money you take on the door, from increased numbers due to placement advertising = mc2

B.

Subject: RE: Stealing gigs from the pro's
From: TheSnail
Date: 14 Nov 07 - 02:47 PM

GUEST, Anon

Can't quarrel with your post of 14 Nov 07 - 02:10 PM but, in the end, all that the organiser can sell is the artist's pulling power.

it's even happend to me

Even YOU! I wonder if I'll ever find out who you are.

Subject: RE: Stealing gigs from the pro's
From: TheSnail
Date: 14 Nov 07 - 02:37 PM

Brendy

Very negative outlook, really...

Brendy, we pay our guests from the money we take on the door. E=mc2.

Subject: RE: Stealing gigs from the pro's
From: GUEST, Anon
Date: 14 Nov 07 - 02:17 PM

Re fees and door prices... Yes I hate to see my and my other performing friends' abilities pre-judged by someone's idea of a fair door price, but I do understand why it's done and I guess it's only reasonable.

But the question you ask the Captain misses a point.

The higher-feed artists will bring in more people, thus earning his higher fee, while the lower-feed artist pulls in fewer, so expects to get less, that's reasonable. And if they're all on a percentage against a low guarantee - which is fine IF the club is doing everything right, then that's fair too. The maths only works your way if you have a completely full room for both acts, which would be unlikely.

No-one would surely suggest that all artists should get the same fee - execept the few marxist moles left in the MU (we know who you are!)

Subject: RE: Stealing gigs from the pro's
From: Brendy
Date: 14 Nov 07 - 02:11 PM

"If not enough people turn up to pay for the guest, organisers just have to live and learn"

I took that statement as being relative to your Folk Club.
It's a fairly laissez faire attitude, and if the club is only 'moderately successful', then there is room for improvement.

It's in everyone's interest to have a vibrant, living, scene.

"What I meant was that if we have built the website, paid for the advertising, sent out the fliers, put up the posters and told the local papers (who will get it wrong) and still get an audience of three men and a parrot..."

Very negative outlook, really...

B.

Subject: RE: Stealing gigs from the pro's
From: GUEST, Anon
Date: 14 Nov 07 - 02:10 PM

Thankyou for clarifying that Bryan. Yes I'm well aware of both clubs and know the key people involved (I shold have guessed when you mentioned how close there are).

There are clubs, however, who operate as I describe, and rely entirely on the artists pulling power. That delivers poor results on a first booking uet when they don't get enough people on the first visit they're never invited back (it's even happend to me).

A few people here have endorsed that approach, but I think that's horribly unfair and ciminally short-sighted.

If they the performance was weak, of course no one would expect them to be re-booked, but if they were good, and went down very well with that small audience, then surely the sensible thing would be to assume that two to three years later their pulling power will have improved, but, more importantly, the people who DID come last time will act as advocates and persuade the doubters to be there this time.

With that attitude everyone wins - but not everyone is willing to take the broad view.

Subject: RE: Stealing gigs from the pro's
From: TheSnail
Date: 14 Nov 07 - 02:02 PM

Captain, if you just answer my question, I will be able to give you a considered response. Are you advocating paying all artists the same fee or are you suggesting we subsidise the more expensive ones from the takings on the nights when we have cheaper ones?

Subject: RE: Stealing gigs from the pro's
From: Banjiman
Date: 14 Nov 07 - 01:35 PM

Captain....The first 2 nights at
Kirkby Fleetham Folk Club are free....thanks to the commitment of the Pub Landlord to helping make this a success (he's paying the acts fees). My preferred arrangements following this honeymoon period will be to agree 80% of the door to guests with a lowish minimum guarantee....but I WILL do the promotional legwork...you might have already noticed that!.....the price on the door is therefore somewhat dependent on how much the act wants.

I am keeping 20% to allow me not only to do decent promotion, I am also keen to ensure that the support acts (there will generally be 2) at least have their expenses covered......where possible the support acts will include 1 "young/ new" performer(s) it is important that they feel that they are also getting a "proper" gig to.

That's the theory anyway, Ill report back when I have been running 6 months!!!!

Paul

Subject: RE: Stealing gigs from the pro's
From: The Sandman
Date: 14 Nov 07 - 01:23 PM

Snail,I am advocating that guest admission prices should be always the same,as they always used to be in the days when all folk clubs were full.
I think your system sends out all the wrong messages to the public,Do you charge the same amounts for all your workshops?.
If you dont why should one workshop be more expensive,if you do why should workshops be different from folk clubs.Check Mate.

Subject: RE: Stealing gigs from the pro's
From: TheSnail
Date: 14 Nov 07 - 01:19 PM

GUEST, Anon

What I meant was that if we have built the website, paid for the advertising, sent out the fliers, put up the posters and told the local papers (who will get it wrong) and still get an audience of three men and a parrot I don't see why we should guarantee a minimum fee, especially if the guest is claiming to be a star of stage, screen and festival.

There are two clubs in Lewes so you may be confusing us with the Royal Oak, an equally conscientious and successful club.

Subject: RE: Stealing gigs from the pro's
From: GUEST, Anon
Date: 14 Nov 07 - 01:00 PM

Sorry - but some people do seem to think we just somehow acquire a following from nowhere by magic, and so believe that merely announcing that the guest next week is XX is enough, and that seemed to be what you were endorsing with your comment "I don't see why we should guarantee an artist against their failure to bring in an audience."

I've not been to your club yet but I do know you're not like that there (I'd understood it was run by someone else). My apologies.

I'm used to playing to full club rooms and festival main stages, but I've had my share of disasters, and witnessed other good acts playing to two men and a dog that deserved better.

Of course no-one pays you, but as my old Dad used to say all the time - 'if a job's worth doing it's worth doing properly,' and 'the more you put in the more you get out.'

I spend all my time trying to ensure full rooms - for my benefit mainly, but also the club's, and I know a lot about it because it's in my interests to do so.

Yes, I'll always accept a percentage even with no guarantee if that's what clubs prefer - but if so I MUST be confident they're also doing their bit to get people to come - otherwise what would be the point? I have a family to feed.

Those clubs that have a similar approach, and are willing to see the bigger picture are the real stars.

Subject: RE: Stealing gigs from the pro's
From: TheSnail
Date: 14 Nov 07 - 12:50 PM

Captain Birdseye

I do stand by everything I have said about guest admission pricing

I'm still not sure what you mean by this, Captain. Are you advocating paying all artists the same fee or using the cheaper artists to subsidise the more expensive?

Subject: RE: Stealing gigs from the pro's
From: Rasener
Date: 14 Nov 07 - 12:48 PM

>>As I see it, the club organisers' priority is to put entertainment in front of an audience, not to provide an audience for professional folkies.<<

Surely its both. Of course you want to entertain the public and thats what you expect the performer to acheive.

If you get a low turnout after all the publicity or the performer doesn't come up to expectation, you don't book them again.

Subject: RE: Stealing gigs from the pro's
From: TheSnail
Date: 14 Nov 07 - 12:43 PM

GUEST, Anon

TheSnail advocates: Leave it all up to the artist to build his reputation in outer space somehow and then ride on his coat-tails.

I have never said anything remotely resembling that and, frankly, find it offensive.

Subject: RE: Stealing gigs from the pro's
From: Santa
Date: 14 Nov 07 - 12:43 PM

Brendy: I'll mention to the organiser of our moderately-successful club that the business model went out years ago. Oh, dear.

Anon: I hope so, but my interests lie more in song than guitar instrumentals, however well played. I did go to a Martin Simpson concert once, some years ago, and enjoyed it, but he did sing a few songs as well. (OK, not as well as he played guitar....) I have other things I like doing apart from listening to folk song/music, if I'm pretty sure I won't enjoy an evening then I'll do them instead. I go most weeks - it would take wild horses to drag me to an Irish pub playing mad diddley-diddley all night....but each to their own.

Talk about timing - just had a call that Gracenotes have cancelled. The very short notice replacement is a guitarist......... (not Martin Simpson).

Subject: RE: Stealing gigs from the pro's
From: TheSnail
Date: 14 Nov 07 - 12:39 PM

GUEST, Anon

All you Anons look the same to me. It's hard to know which said what.

I don't run a club TheSnail

I rather thought you didn't. My question was meant to be somewhat ironic. You seemed to be very confident about how to do it.

On the points in your earlier post -
1) What are we supposed to do? Fine them for non-attendance? Write a stroppy letter to their parents? Send out the truancy officer?
2) Not sure what the club organisers are supposed to do about that.
3) Yes, of course we have a website and do all of that and everything else that The Villan said but still you want a guarantee if people would rather stay in and watch Eastenders than come out and hear you?

I'm Bryan Creer one of, at the last count, ten residents at the Lewes Arms Folk Club but I should make clear that all opinions expressed here are my own.

Sorry Brendy but Santa has it right. What other business model do you want?

As I see it, the club organisers' priority is to put entertainment in front of an audience, not to provide an audience for professional folkies. If you think otherwise, just remember how much you pay us.

Subject: RE: Stealing gigs from the pro's
From: GUEST, Anon
Date: 14 Nov 07 - 12:39 PM

But they're not interested in doing clubs. Not many of the youngsters are - or not for long anyway.

If there is to be a pool of good performers willing to do all the things that touring club pros have to do, then the clubs have to play their part in the bargain and do what you advocate Villan, not what TheSnail advocates: Leave it all up to the artist to build his reputation in outer space somehow and then ride on his coat-tails.

I repeat, the artist may be visiting that area for the first time, and he hasn't got a clue how your club operates, where the promotion outlets are and whether it's a nice room etc. (and he can't do anything about it if it's not).

And what's he supposed to do when his fans say they don't think much of the club, but its the only one they can get to?

Subject: RE: Stealing gigs from the pro's
From: The Sandman
Date: 14 Nov 07 - 12:32 PM

well everyone knows who I am,and I hope that being above board about my identity is respected ,I am hoping that out of this dialogue,some improvements can be made,while I have strong opinions,I do accept that every folkclub is different and that what I advocate may not work for everyone.
I do stand by everything I have said about guest admission pricing,and about membership and keeping records of people adresses[with their permission],so that they can be informed of future events [that is sensible business practice,and any suggestion it might contravene some data act is laughable].Dick Miles