BS: Pakistan and Kenya

Subject: RE: BS: Pakistan and Kenya
From: CarolC
Date: 07 Jan 08 - 01:18 PM

No point in arguing with fantasy.

LOL. Thanks for the advice. I guess I should stop arguing with you now, seeing as how your world view is a fantasy (although I'm sure a very pleasing one for you).


Thanks, Donuel.

Subject: RE: BS: Pakistan and Kenya
From: Donuel
Date: 07 Jan 08 - 12:39 PM

Carol
Your research was quick and easy but excelent none the less.

I listened to a guest on NPR who argued that Kenya has no real majority of one tribe over another. Nor is tribalism the main issue.

I will try to get a live link to the this interview which seemed far more truthful than the typical party line of an Imperial think tank pundit.

Subject: RE: BS: Pakistan and Kenya
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 07 Jan 08 - 12:31 PM

No point in arguing with fantasy.

Subject: RE: BS: Pakistan and Kenya
From: CarolC
Date: 06 Jan 08 - 11:50 PM

If you want to find out what the book was being used for in each of the courses I posted links to, you have only to look in the links. I put a link to the syllabus for each course.

Perkins was recruited for the job of Economic Hit Man by the NSA. On his resume, under "Clients Served" is listed "US Treasury Department/Kingdom of Saudi Arabia". This is because the US government is as much a part of the activities that Perkins writes about as the corporations.

The goal is to absorb the developing countries of the world into the empire currently being built by the US and some other Western governments and certain large and very powerful corporations, using economic enslavement as the primary tool. The goal is not, and has never been to actually help the people of the developing world. For this reason, unless or until this agenda is changed, I tend to doubt that any recommendations by Ms. Hertz will ever be considered.

Subject: RE: BS: Pakistan and Kenya
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 06 Jan 08 - 11:03 PM

Without knowing the purpose of the assignment of the book by Perkins at these schools, I wouldn't be able to comment.

I am trying to absorb "The Debt Threat..." by Hertz, which seems to be a reasonable assessment of the loan and loan repayment programs, which are not functioning as they were designed to do; the debts destabilizing poorly governed developing countries.
Poorly thought out programs loaded with money are subject to mis-direction unless carefully monitored. Obviously this requires that attempts to mis-direct the loan money into private or corporate pockets must be foreseen and controls imposed. There are many examples of failure, not just at the present time. Hertz suggests some remedies. This is a worthwhile study, and Hertz has followed it up with several articles. She has excellent credentials and teaches at both Cambridge and Utrecht.

On the other hand, Perkins seems to have helped his companies scam money that should have gone into specific projects or into debt repayment, and spun his little tale of thievery into the large problem of loans to small countries and loan repayments.
I cannot credit his material.

Globalization of industry is something that governments have yet to deal with. Large multinationals take on some of the trappings of omnipotence, but it is up to governments to control them. That sounds simplistic, but major governments and combinations thereof (European Union, etc.) are not used to the new world of business and have not developed viable controls. An uninformed public (that includes me) shares the blame. Venal governmental administrators and companies of course will lap up money made by their country's resources if controls are lacking.
Large loans have accrued to small governments that could have been repaid if their governments were honest or had been monitored by the lenders but means of doing so do not exist or were not installed; slowly these debts are being forgiven or repayment delayed, but reluctance to act means the problem will remain for some time to come.

I hope that some of the solutions suggested by Ms Hertz can be implemented; I don't know if they are possible or suitable.
I am not able to prescribe any solution, it is a complex subject.

Subject: RE: BS: Pakistan and Kenya
From: CarolC
Date: 06 Jan 08 - 08:41 PM

Corrected link for Desales University...

Desals

Subject: RE: BS: Pakistan and Kenya
From: CarolC
Date: 06 Jan 08 - 07:03 PM

Heh.

It's in the course reading requirements of these schools...

http://www.semesteratsea.com/voyages/fall2005/PS1511-CC.pdfUniversity of Pittsburgh

Spriingfield College

DeSales University (MBA Program)

University of Minnesota (Political Science)

Appalachian State University

New York University (Robert F. Wagner Graduate School of Public Service)

University of Denver (Graduate School of International Studies)

Saddleback College (Economics)

Unity College

San Deigo State University

Springfield College

University of Pennsylvania (Political Science)


Recommended or optional reading...

George Mason University

Regis University

University of Washington

University of Memphis (possible reading)

There's lots of others, but that's all I have time for right now.


Come join us in the 21st century, Q.

Subject: RE: BS: Pakistan and Kenya
From: CarolC
Date: 06 Jan 08 - 06:11 PM

I used to have some respect for your ability to intelligently discuss things, Q. Lately it seems that you only have petty sniping, but nothing of substance to offer a discussion.

Subject: RE: BS: Pakistan and Kenya
From: CarolC
Date: 06 Jan 08 - 06:05 PM

University of Pittsburgh.

Subject: RE: BS: Pakistan and Kenya
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 06 Jan 08 - 06:01 PM

at least one university- must be the munchausen seminar.

Subject: RE: BS: Pakistan and Kenya
From: autolycus
Date: 06 Jan 08 - 04:30 PM

I have heard it said (so that's a rotten source) on the BBC, that the trouble in Kenya is not a tribal thing, but a haves and have-nots thing. apparently, nalopkt

Ivor

Subject: RE: BS: Pakistan and Kenya
From: CarolC
Date: 06 Jan 08 - 10:54 AM

By the way, Confessions of an Economic Hit Man is being used as a textbook in the political science department of at least one university in the US.

Subject: RE: BS: Pakistan and Kenya
From: Goose Gander
Date: 06 Jan 08 - 12:42 AM

That was a joke, CarolC - admittedly not a good one.

Yes, I am quite aware of the PNAC. I just don't think their mesopotamian adventure has turned out the way they planned.

Subject: RE: BS: Pakistan and Kenya
From: Jack Campin
Date: 05 Jan 08 - 09:33 PM

And another book on the British genocide in Kenya: Caroline Elkins' "Imperial Reckoning".

Subject: RE: BS: Pakistan and Kenya
From: Jack Campin
Date: 05 Jan 08 - 09:30 PM

Amos needs to read David Anderson's "Histories of the Hanged" before sounding off any more of that Mau-Mau-were-nigger-demons bollocks.

I saw the Pakistan and Kenya news by channel-flipping in a Turkish hotel. It was a good way to see how crap the BBC is. Their world bulletins focused exclusively on those two stories, when they weren't showing interminable trailers for their own shows later in the week. Did they even mention in passing that both Dagestan and Indonesia were being devastated by floods at the same time, as reported by the Russian news and al-Jazeera respectively? Did they hell. When the BBC World Service isn't pretending that it's still reporting on an empire, it's refighting Stalin with interminable rehashes of Cold War propaganda. We're *paying* for these fuckwits?

Subject: RE: BS: Pakistan and Kenya
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 05 Jan 08 - 04:55 PM

Illuminati is sooooo last decade.
Left geology long ago. Did pretty well with Florida voting machines.
Looking forward to Cuba when the Mafia and corporations take over again or may follow the ups and downs of the Hang Seng and the next Number One.

Subject: RE: BS: Pakistan and Kenya
From: CarolC
Date: 05 Jan 08 - 11:31 AM

Do you believe in the Illuminati, Michael? Personally, I don't believe in conspiracy theories, but that's just me. You have every right to believe in them if you want to.


I didn't name it, Bonzo. And they definitely intend for South and Central America to be a part of the empire. In fact, they already are. Canada's in their sights, too. And it's not my plan.


Michael, read their treatise yourself...

Rebuilding America's Defenses

You can't used a weakened dollar as an indication that their plan isn't working. It can just as easily serve as part of their strategy.

As for Bush's facial expressions... I would suggest that if he isn't smiling so much any more, it's because there are increasing numbers of people in the US and around the world who are seeing what's going on much more clearly now, and deciding to follow their consciences rather than prostitute themselves to the empire builders any more.

But it's much more than just NeoCons who are responsible. It's been going on for a very long time. Check out what two time Congressional Medal of Honor recipient Smedly Butler has to say about it...

War is a Racket

Subject: RE: BS: Pakistan and Kenya
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 05 Jan 08 - 08:34 AM

"Project for the New American Century"

New USAian Century please - don't include Central and South America in your hideous project and certainly not Canadeeio!

Subject: RE: BS: Pakistan and Kenya
From: Goose Gander
Date: 05 Jan 08 - 01:29 AM

Well, it seems you've been found out, Q. Care to show us the secret Illuminati handshake?

CarolC, you're giving Cheney and his sock-puppet far too much credit if you think the current mesopotamian fiasco is playing out to the neocon's game plan. If everything was going according to schedule, I think the dollar would be doing a little better and W. would be smiling a little more.

Subject: RE: BS: Pakistan and Kenya
From: CarolC
Date: 05 Jan 08 - 12:25 AM

Q, you're a geologist, aren't you? Any chance you have a financial stake in the oil industry?

Subject: RE: BS: Pakistan and Kenya
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 05 Jan 08 - 12:22 AM

When I reach Dubai, I'll take up the question with my friend Ahmed Bin S., and find out what the real conspiracy behind the conspiracy is.

Subject: RE: BS: Pakistan and Kenya
From: CarolC
Date: 04 Jan 08 - 11:54 PM

You throw the term 'conspiracy buff' around a lot, Q, but it's nothing more than an ad hominem attack. You certainly have no evidence that what Perkins is saying has anything to do with conspiracy theories. You have not provided any evidence that he is telling anything less than the truth.

Ad hominem attacks are not valid argumentation. They're merely an attempt to avoid serious discussion. Most probably because you do not really have anything of substance to offer in support of your position.


You can't dominate the world if your military in the mullah's gunsites, or bottled up in Afghanistan with no clear mission.

Depends on what your strategy is. If you're trying to draw the countries in the area into a regional conflict, you might just want to do that. You can use it as an excuse to ratchet things up until you get what you want. It's also useful if what you want is to have an excuse to build and maintain permanent military bases in those areas, because you can say that as long as they're shooting at us, we are needed to try to bring peace. If your goal is to take control of the oil in the region (and in the case of Afghanistan, to build and maintain oil pipelines), you will want to maintain a permanent presence there.

If your goal is to dominate the region, you will want to maintain a permanent military presence there. If your goal is to wage war against Iran, you will want some nearby countries with your forces and bases in them, from which you stage attacks on Iran. Similarly if your goal is to attack Syria.

The whole idea is to create an excuse for keeping your military forces and equipment in other peoples' countries, where legally you have no legitimate business. Strategically, it all makes perfect sense.

In the case of Kenya, you assert dominance by making sure that the government of that country will do your bidding, and if they won't, you arrange for that country to have a new government.

Subject: RE: BS: Pakistan and Kenya
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 04 Jan 08 - 10:32 PM

Charley, no point in joisting with a conspiracy buff unless you are a creative writer with unlimited imagination.
I'll quote a couple of verses from Dead Milkmen - and steal away to my condo in Dubai.

From the halls of Montezuma to the shores of Tripoli
We are all tools of the conspiracy
From the littlest baby to the biggest V. I. P.
We are all tools of the conspiracy.

Run to the window, they're coming to get you
Hide in the basement, they're coming to get you
Don't go outside, no, don't let them get you.

Someone should tell you,
They own the CIA and the IRS
They tell us where to shop and how to dress
They own the workers, they own the boss
Theu know what's in the secret sauce
They own the drugs, they own the narcs
We all know they own Dick Clark
They own it all, they own everything
They write the songs that make the whole world sing.

Conspiracy Song.

Subject: RE: BS: Pakistan and Kenya
From: Charley Noble
Date: 04 Jan 08 - 10:00 PM

Carol and Q are probably the ones to thrash this out. Carol seems to have done more homework but I prefere Q's overview.

Well, I'm not over in Nairobi or Islamabab.

It's sad that the Bush Adminstration is so inept when there is such a need for leadership in the world today. Too bad our credibility was shot in Iraq. There isn't much we can do at this point but count dead bodies, and send some bandaids.

Charley Noble

Subject: RE: BS: Pakistan and Kenya
From: Goose Gander
Date: 04 Jan 08 - 08:58 PM

You can't dominate the world if your military in the mullah's gunsites, or bottled up in Afghanistan with no clear mission.

Subject: RE: BS: Pakistan and Kenya
From: CarolC
Date: 04 Jan 08 - 08:19 PM

*world domination

Subject: RE: BS: Pakistan and Kenya
From: CarolC
Date: 04 Jan 08 - 08:03 PM

Do you really think the people who are responsible for our troops being in Iraq care about the welfare of those troops? If they did, they wouldn't send them to kill people for money. If you don't believe the government intended to get the result they got, you have only to read the basic blueprint they were using for their current efforts at empire building, the treatise written by the Project for the New American Century. I'll hunt it up for you if you haven't read it already. They themselves have said that their goal is wold domination.

You need to understand that what the government is doing has nothing to do with maintaining a democracy here at home, nor establishing a democracy anywhere else in the world. What they are doing is growing an empire, which requires a strategic approach rather than a tactical one.

Subject: RE: BS: Pakistan and Kenya
From: Goose Gander
Date: 04 Jan 08 - 06:27 PM

Except that our military is now effectively held hostage. What do you think would happen to those men and women if Bush & Co. were to be so foolish as to attack Iran? This adminstration emphatically did not expect such as outcome. Iraq was supposed to have a secular government under Ahmed Chalabi, the oil was supposed to be flowing freely, and Iran was supposed to be cowering in fear.

Subject: RE: BS: Pakistan and Kenya
From: CarolC
Date: 04 Jan 08 - 05:15 PM

Definitely. For one thing, it gives us more sabers to rattle in our quest for war with Iran, and religious fundamentalists give the US government and other governments excuses to erode civil liberties in their own countries in the name of fighting 'the war on terrorism'.

Subject: RE: BS: Pakistan and Kenya
From: Goose Gander
Date: 04 Jan 08 - 05:03 PM

The Iraq war and occupation has produced a Shiite government that is friendly to Iran, and has empowered religious fundementalists. Were either of these intended consequences?

Subject: RE: BS: Pakistan and Kenya
From: CarolC
Date: 04 Jan 08 - 04:36 PM

The Iraq occupation is working exactly the way it was intended to work, Michael. The plan was to create a pretext for establishing a permanent presence in Iraq, and that's exactly what has happened.

Subject: RE: BS: Pakistan and Kenya
From: Goose Gander
Date: 04 Jan 08 - 04:21 PM

Perhaps, but I have to believe that if "these people" were as diabolically efficient as all that then the Iraq occupation would have worked out a little better.

Subject: RE: BS: Pakistan and Kenya
From: CarolC
Date: 04 Jan 08 - 03:48 PM

Q, I can't imagine that a man who would turn against the kinds of people he used to work for would be able to do so without being tarred and feathered in the popular press for it. However, they have not successfully refuted any of his assertions. And it is even more difficult for them to discredit his second book which contains the accounts of quite a few people who did the same kind of work.

What you quoted is simply mud with no substance.


Michale Morris, I haven't got any direct links as of yet. But it is the classic way that these people operate. Pretty much, all you have to do is establish why the West would want to get rid of Kibaki, and you can be assured that this is what they are working to accomplish. Watch the videos in the links and you can learn about numerous examples. It's the way the world is structured right now.

Subject: RE: BS: Pakistan and Kenya
From: CarolC
Date: 04 Jan 08 - 03:40 PM

Pay more attention to the economic reasons that the West is unhappy with Kibaki, Amos. Those are the reasons for their wanting to depose him. If we deposed every leader who supported criminal organizations, we would be deposing most of our allies.

Subject: RE: BS: Pakistan and Kenya
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 04 Jan 08 - 03:37 PM

Carol, the lover of conspiracy theories and business and US-Brit basher, brings up the penny-dreadfuls of writers like Perkins, whose "yarn," says Publishers Weekly and most reviewers, "is ultimately unconvincing except to conspiracy buffs." John Le Carré, at least, writes well.
Reviewing Perkins' later work, "The Secret History of the American Empire," the New York Times reviewer, in a hilarious column, says, "Perkins, like Alexander the Great, Genghis Khan, Julius Caesar, Napoleon Bonaparte and many other titans who irrevocably altered the course of history,"... spent several years working for the Peace Corps... apparently doing good things.... "He spent most of the 1970s and '80s helping the evil corporatocracy that runs the Secrut American Empire establish suzerainity over the Middle East, Southeast Asia, South America and Africa." ... he had a Saul of Tarsus-type conversion"... , since then he has been on the side of the angels. "So Perkins falls into the same category as St. Ignatius Loyola, St. Augustine and Charles Colson: He is an unimpeachable expert on virtue...." "It's surprising that he even charges money for the book. It was probably his publisher's idea. Corporatocratic swine."

With regard to Hiatt's book, globalization and global debt financing are better understood from a good textbook. The world is restructuring and the essays in this book nibble at the problems arising but serve no real purpose by relating the apples of implementation with the oranges of local corruption conflicting cultures.

Subject: RE: BS: Pakistan and Kenya
From: Goose Gander
Date: 04 Jan 08 - 03:34 PM

Hello Everyone -

Idi Amin did expel East Indians from Uganda (and ruin his country's economy in the process), but it's my understanding that this population stayed on in Kenya. Q, do you have a source for this?

I've been following the unrest in Kenya, and I've looked over the sources CarolC has linked, but I don't see how the 'western powers' are responsible for the current bloodshed. Could you provide evidence of a direct link? Something beyond assertion, and from someone else besides John Perkins, if possible.

Finally, I don't know how anyone can deny that conflicting ethnic identities play a role in this unfolding civil conflict.

Here are some recent articles I've looked at . . . .

http://www.csmonitor.com/2008/0103/p01s03-woaf.html

http://www.csmonitor.com/2008/0104/p01s03-woaf.html

http://news.independent.co.uk/world/africa/article3307591.ece

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/africa/article3124923.ece

http://www.mcclatchydc.com/world/story/24134.html

Subject: RE: BS: Pakistan and Kenya
From: Amos
Date: 04 Jan 08 - 03:06 PM

Carol:

The Mau Mau was a criminal organization, no matter what the provocation of British and Boer colonialism. It was largely fomented by the USSR, and was organized to produce mayhem, the slaughter of innocents, and massive amounts of bloodshed. That there were legitimate grievances by the Kikuyu against the white Christian colonists is without question; but the Mau Mau code of conduct was criminal even by traditional Kikuyu standards.

A

Subject: RE: BS: Pakistan and Kenya
From: CarolC
Date: 04 Jan 08 - 02:47 PM

John Perkins...

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=6499794293687763489&q=john+perkins&total=522&start=0&num=10&so=0&type=search&plindex=2

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-5316592817259552861&q=john+perkins&total=522&start=0&num=10&so=0&type=search&plindex=3

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=3968544393356669182&q=john+perkins&total=522&start=0&num=10&so=0&type=search&plindex=0

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=3848716298990404813&q=john+perkins&total=522&start=0&num=10&so=0&type=search&plindex=1

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=7969424888680179897&q=john+perkins&total=522&start=0&num=10&so=0&type=search&plindex=6

Subject: RE: BS: Pakistan and Kenya
From: CarolC
Date: 04 Jan 08 - 02:08 PM

You are incorrect, Q. What is happening in Kenya right now is a classic example of what Western governments and corporations do to developing countries when the leaders of those countries don't do their bidding. They corrupt the leader, if it is possible to do so. If it is not possible to do so, they will either assasinate or depose the leader. This is what they are fomenting right now in Kenya. If that doesn't work, they wage war against the country as happened in Iraq, and as they are preparing to do to Iran.


"What is Washington/London's beef with the Kibaki Administration? Part of President Mwai Kibaki's Original Sin would appear to be the China policy he has pursued in office over the past four-and-three-quarter years. Kibaki's leaning towards China as a major development and commercial partner has gone down rather badly in London.

Certain British interests have also been angry with the Nairobi regime that finally decriminalized Mau Mau, for half-a-century a proscribed organization, and went so far as to unveil a statue of Field Marshall Dedan Kimathi Waciuri in the capital city's central business district right next to the Hilton Hotel. The British hanged Kimathi in February 1957, the same month they granted Ghana its Independence under Kwame Nkrumah, a man who, nine years later, London contributed directly to the overthrow of by the military and police and a resultant generation of tyranny in which Ghanians were shorn of the rule of law.

China has taken to partnering with Kenya and investing in this country with aplomb, with major engagement in gigantic infrastructural projects, including the JKIA-Gigiri road and the Lanet-Molo highway. China is also funding construction of major road bypass projects.
Perhaps the most drastic re-think and re-direction in Kenya-UK relations was this administration's early decision to diversify its sources of military procurement and other security-related contracts, for instance dropping the British Land Rover for the Japanese Toyota Land Cruiser.

Worst of all from the point of view of many Africa-last policymakers in both Washington and London, the Kibaki Administration has largely weaned Kenya from the abusive dependency on so-called development and international aid that has locked so many Third World nations into a vicious cycle of plunder and poverty.

According to a masterly insider analysis of the worldwide con known as globalization, entitled A Game as Old as Empire, subtitled "Global Empire: The Web of Control", by Steve Hiatt, Third World countries pay more than US$375 billion a year in debt service, which is 20 times more than the amount of foreign aid that they receive. There has not been a more unequal relationship in human affairs across the seas since the Trans-Atlantic slave trade that was abolished 200 years ago.
Considering the fact that half the world's population of 6 billion people lives on less than $2 a day, this is an unconscionably and unacceptably unjust system. But it is also a system in which the victims try to get out only at their own very real peril.

The story of the Kibaki Administration's first five years has been just such an attempt - a spirited go at breaking out of the prison of the global plunder and poverty trap that is the thoroughly corrupt "foreign aid" and "international development" con. The risk the Kibaki regime has taken in breaking the cycle of plunder, poverty, manipulation and alien control has come with clear and present dangers, not the least of which is a well-funded Opposition in which the forces of reaction, tribalism and economic backwardness have been equipped to take over and to keep Kenya firmly in the sphere of Western influence.

The Kibaki Administration's other Original Sin was the decision to break the aid dependency syndrome and finance the economy almost entirely on the basis of efficient, accountable and transparent tax collections. This move has been highly beneficial for Kenya and Kenyans, but this is precisely what our erstwhile Western masters never want to hear about, much less see happen.

The book from which the masthead quote for this analysis is drawn, John Perkins's first-person account of his own life as an Economic Hit Man, is a story of corruption at the global level that has many an object lesson for Kenyans as they prepare themselves to make an informed choice at the 10th General Election. It is a deeply disturbing story of the most mind-boggling greed and international corruption, a worldwide web of control, corruption, and plunder.
Confessions of an Economic Hit Man is the most compelling book of its genre — insider investigative expose and whistle-blowing —since the late 1980s' The Lords of Poverty: The Power, Prestige, and Corruption of the International Aid Business by Graham Hancock. It is essential reading for thinking Kenyans who are sworn enemies of herd mentalities and opposition for opposition's sake."

http://nairobitimes.blogspot.com/2007/11/economic-hit-men.html


John Perkins was himself an economic hit man. His first book is about his own activities in this profession, and his second book is a compilation of accounts from other people who have done the same work. You should read these books.

Subject: RE: BS: Pakistan and Kenya
From: GUEST,Homer
Date: 04 Jan 08 - 01:32 PM

Wise words.
Thank you

Subject: RE: BS: Pakistan and Kenya
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 04 Jan 08 - 01:12 PM

The 'Western World' and the 'Chinese World,' to bring the outside influences up to date, wish nothing more than a stable sub-Saharan Africa, able to provide oil and other products and in turn buy their manufactured articles.
The 'anarchy' is home-grown and based on historical tribal and racial hatreds.

The Kenyans threw out the East Indians and others who were the base for economic development and the best hope for a stable future, a tremendous backward step. The East Indians were important to the development of the economy and the entry of the country into the modern world. A number of the East Indians who lost everything in that part of Africa came to Canada and other Western nations and have made significant contributions to the countries that accepted them.

Subject: RE: BS: Pakistan and Kenya
From: CarolC
Date: 04 Jan 08 - 08:49 AM

The Western World is instigating it, Homer. Wouldn't want to speak up before the mission is accomplished, would we?

Subject: RE: BS: Pakistan and Kenya
From: GUEST,Homer
Date: 04 Jan 08 - 08:10 AM

In just a few days Kenya has entered into anarchy and the Western World retains it's silence.

Subject: RE: BS: Pakistan and Kenya
From: Stu
Date: 04 Jan 08 - 07:19 AM

"At one time we (the English) cut the lips off anybody speaking Welsh (or Gaelic if you prefer) and now we find they (the Welsh) are totally absorbed into our culture!"

Twll dy din di.

Subject: RE: BS: Pakistan and Kenya
From: Amos
Date: 03 Jan 08 - 10:03 PM

Odd you should mention Ruark's book, Art. It is sitting on my desk right next to my keyboard. I had finished reading it a week ago, and gave it to BBW to read, and am now readying to re-read it. It is a really stunning book, which seems to capture the unrest of Kenya then. It is truly remarkable to read it while looking at photos from the current unrest in Kenya now, with the pangas flailing and the beatings and troops running around. One helluva book.

A

Subject: RE: BS: Pakistan and Kenya
From: Art Thieme
Date: 03 Jan 08 - 08:51 PM

The Mau Mau years with Jomo Kenyatta trying to dislodge Europeans in Kenya precipitated all the negatives inherent in the many and varied bloody rituals of the many tribes in the area.

As it was said in those sad times (and I paraphrase): "When you deprive an entire people of all their own culture that is good and admirable, you had better have Something Of Value to replace it with!!"

A fairly decent American novel of those Mau Mau years is, indeed, one called "Something Of Value." It's worth looking into. It might give you some background about what brought us from then to here and now---and all that that entails.

Art Thieme

Subject: RE: BS: Pakistan and Kenya
From: folk1e
Date: 03 Jan 08 - 08:32 PM

At one time we (the English) cut the lips off anybody speaking Welsh (or Gaelic if you prefer) and now we find they (the Welsh) are totally absorbed into our culture!
We were responsible for the wholesale depopulation of Scotland and Ireland to America, now we are best of buddies (since our troops left Ireland ..... and Scotland for that matter)

I personally do not understand why a group of villagers should turn on one of their neighbors and hack him to death with big knives, or take a girl off to a village to be gang raped! But then again I am not part of the cultures involved, so my right to be indignant is somewhat reduced!

One thing I do note however is that people the world over will act in a different way when they are in a crowd. Not much of an excuse, but the best you will get from me!

Subject: RE: BS: Pakistan and Kenya
From: Kim C
Date: 03 Jan 08 - 04:04 PM

I thought the Scots had been working toward self-government for awhile.

Subject: RE: BS: Pakistan and Kenya
From: CarolC
Date: 03 Jan 08 - 03:45 PM

I had a feeling, when I saw this thread, that considering the condescending and superior attitude some of us Westerners are displaying it it, surely there must be some Western meddling going on in Kenya that has either contributed to or caused what is going on in that country right now.

So I Googled, Kenya & "economic hit man". Sure enough, I was right...

http://www.chaaban.info/2005/12/07/confession-of-an-economic-hit-man/

http://mymmoh.blogspot.com/2006/12/kenyans-need-edification-fast.html


Africa will never have peace until Western governments and corporations stop using it as their personal bank. Hopefully, if enough people in Africa read John Perkins' books, they will find a way to stop the raping and pillaging of their continent (and their people) by Western vultures.

Subject: RE: BS: Pakistan and Kenya
From: GUEST,stigweard no cookie
Date: 03 Jan 08 - 03:35 PM

"So...I assume YOU live in a country which never makes mistakes. Care to enlighten us as to which one?"

Who does? I live in one that has made so many of the mistakes in the past the US is making now (of course, the government of my country continues to make mistakes - we elected Thatcher and Blair after all).

Thing is, even though many Americans didn't vote for Bush et al, it's their actions your children will be held accountable for in years to come. They get to suffer for the sins of their fathers, like it or not, whether their fathers agreed with what went on or not.

Mind you, at least the latest candidates for the US elections seem interesting, and if America makes the right choice the world could benefit. Of course it could go the other way - elect that creationist looney and watch us all plummet back to the dark ages.