BS: Pakistan and Kenya

Subject: RE: BS: Pakistan and Kenya
From: fiddler
Date: 03 Jan 08 - 03:28 PM

Aye,

It is all good sense, sadly we can't turn the clock back.

I think the emerging economies formerly subdued empire states try very hard and are building a history for themsleves and will get theere in the end. The collateral damage over the coming period though I fear will be high on all sides in both economic and social terms.

We can't force democracy we have tried that in the past.

How do you be there for a country and give them a big hug.

I was considering a return visit to Kenya next year - I will watch with an agenda, I love the place and nearly emigrated there once. It rocks - it is all very sad.

Andy

Subject: RE: BS: Pakistan and Kenya
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 03 Jan 08 - 03:10 PM

Tribal allegiances will not be overcome by superficial and weak governments in sub-Saharan Africa. Only strong force wil keep the areas under control. Trying to set-up 'democratic' governments in areas with fundamental schisms is impossible without imposing strong military control. Western-style democracy is a utopian dream.
South Africa, often held up as a leader, is still fragile, with high poverty, disease and regionalism, development mostly under foreign control.
The desire culturally for like to live with like is hard to overcome.

Even in Europe, fractionalism is still strong- how many little self-governing entities in eastern Europe? Kosovo still a possible powderkeg for the next major conflict.

In western Europe, Belgium's Flemish and French are finding it almost impossible to live together and continue cooperative government. And there are predictions that the Scots will be self-governing in a couple of years. No genocide here, though, just a few brawls at the football matches.

Subject: RE: BS: Pakistan and Kenya
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 03 Jan 08 - 01:27 PM

Roughly one in four potential American voters voted for Bush.

Subject: RE: BS: Pakistan and Kenya
From: Bill D
Date: 03 Jan 08 - 12:38 PM

".. it looks like poor judgement is a national character trait.

ummmm...50% did NOT vote for him, his approval rating is now below 30%....
So...I assume YOU live in a country which never makes mistakes. Care to enlighten us as to which one?

(can you guess that I hate broad generalizations?)

Subject: RE: BS: Pakistan and Kenya
From: Kim C
Date: 03 Jan 08 - 12:33 PM

I don't think anything will change there until the people decide they want it to.

Subject: RE: BS: Pakistan and Kenya
From: CarolC
Date: 03 Jan 08 - 12:31 PM

In what way can the civilised world help ?

What "civilized world"?

Subject: RE: BS: Pakistan and Kenya
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 03 Jan 08 - 10:37 AM

Why should we worry, they wanted independence which was granted by the British government. It's rent a mob all over again.

Subject: RE: BS: Pakistan and Kenya
From: Stu
Date: 03 Jan 08 - 06:56 AM

"Just to be clear...most of the USA is upset to be represented by an IDIOT and his group which has poor judgement in such things."

Considering most of the USA had the chance to vote the idiot out last time and instead voted him back in again you must forgive the rest of the world's cynicism on this subject - it looks like poor judgement is a national character trait.


"Now the tribal leaders who skipped hundreds of years of natural development now have guns, religion (in a western sense) and other weapons too!"

Looks like the old imperial condescension is alive and well too. I wouldn't spout crap like this out on the street if I were you, especially in areas of the country where African immigrants have come over and had hundreds of years of natural development thrust upon their poor bewildered souls.

Subject: RE: BS: Pakistan and Kenya
From: fiddler
Date: 03 Jan 08 - 03:56 AM

Oh Dear,

The Victorians went in preached religion and kept control with biggger and better weapons than spears and bow and arrows, known as guns.

Now the tribal leaders who skipped hundreds of years of natural development now have guns, religion (in a western sense) and other weapons too! It takes very special kind of person such as Nelson Mandela to see beyond this.

We forced many of our values on to the Africans (along with the French and belgians mainly I think) and now are aghast that the way we taught them to live - by military and religious rule - is backfiring on us. For once the Americans can claim complete innocence on the intial causes although they still practice the same stupid methods as we did back then - Go in with guns backing up religious fervour and highly developed democratic processes where now the new trinity of money, guns and democracy rule, changing sides and prioroties as often as the british weather changes.

I don't know the answer, I wish I did, what is happening is mayhem and carnage and I feel very responsible (on behalf of my ancestors) but neither money, guns, democracy or religion is!

We should also remember the genocide we (under the guise of new Americans) practiced on the indiginous American populateion too - redskins, Indians, call them what you may, leaving behind another country with a gun culture second to none.

Is this, in biblical terms, the sins of the fathers manifesting themselves 10 fold on their sons.......?

we pretty much stuffed up in many other regions too who still have similar problems to Kenya and Pakistan.

Anyway - my say thoughts for what they are worth - better go and do some work now.

Andy

Subject: RE: BS: Pakistan and Kenya
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 02 Jan 08 - 08:47 PM

For Kenya and much of sub-Saharan Africa, tribal and religious allegiances take precedence over national feelings. A strong dictatorship or international force is the only way to keep control.

In Pakistan, the Sindh, Punjabis and Baluchis are controlled in their actions, but in the northwest, the Pashtun, some 17.6 million in Pakistan, do not recognize control by the government. Their alliances are with their many relatives across the border in Afghanistan. The Pashtun, with their militant wing of young zealots, the Taliban, practice a culture that has come down from biblical times. Their society, under attack by the American-led forces in Afghanistan and more recently by Musharriff's Pakistan forces, will continue to fight for their beliefs. The Taliban, with or without support from Al Queda, will continue bombings in support of their extreme Islamic goals. They may be defeated in an area, but will shift their actions elsewhere until it is safe to return. It may be generations before they are ready to recognize European-American style 'democracy.'
The West continues to think of small groups such as Al Queda with their extremist views as the troublemakers, but these groups put in action the views held by many.

Subject: RE: BS: Pakistan and Kenya
From: Bill D
Date: 02 Jan 08 - 07:11 PM

Just to be clear...most of the USA is upset to be represented by an IDIOT and his group which has poor judgement in such things.

We hope to change that in a year...

Subject: RE: BS: Pakistan and Kenya
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 02 Jan 08 - 02:50 PM

For the USA to congratulate the "winner" of a very suspect election in Kenya on on his victory within minutes wasn't exactly helpful.

Subject: BS: Pakistan and Kenya
From: GUEST,Homer
Date: 02 Jan 08 - 02:17 PM

Just watched the early evening news and it is so sad to see mass murder occurring in both countries.

With the risk of being called a racist or bigot (feel free if you have nothing else to offer) In what way can the civilised world help ?

In Kenya, a million people will gather for an illegal demonstration. Several tribes will clash with machetes and guns and the loss of life in inevitable.

Once these disasters occur, we are poisoned with television and radio appeals for money. My generation has been sending money since I was a child and still I see no sign of harmony and peace, let alone combating starvation, rape and pillage.

What can be done ?

Do we continue sending money ?

Do we ask the British and American governments to send in the troops seeing they consider themselves the policemen of the world ?

Or do we turn away and just let them get on with it ?