Subject: ♫ Venues are a changing. From: Jim Lad Date: 08 Jan 08 - 02:32 PM I've been suggesting for some time that the music scene is in a constant state of flux. When I started out, small cultural clubs and folk clubs (coffee houses) which ran nice wee folk festivals once a year, were pretty much the way it was. What I'm experiencing now is that a whole number of cafes are being run by 50 & ups who happen to be former folk musicians. Add to this that most of these places are now smoke free and serving health food they've turned out to be nice wee venues which compare much more favourably with what we called "Coffee Houses". This all falls into line with what many of us see wrong with the music industry & large "Folk" festivals. I think that today I can say with the utmost sincerity that the pendulum has finally swung full circle! What say ye? |
Subject: RE: ♫ Venues are a changing. From: Peace Date: 08 Jan 08 - 02:40 PM Plus c'est la meme chose, plus ça change. |
Subject: RE: ♫ Venues are a changing. From: Jim Lad Date: 08 Jan 08 - 02:43 PM The more things change, the more they stay the same? Another day another dollar? Birds of a feather flock together? Every dog has its day and that's how the cookie crumbles? I give up! |
Subject: RE: ♫ Venues are a changing. From: open mike Date: 08 Jan 08 - 02:54 PM how did you get musical notes in the subject line?! |
Subject: RE: ♫ Venues are a changing. From: Waddon Pete Date: 08 Jan 08 - 03:03 PM Hello, I agree...same seems to be happening in my neck of the woods! ....and yes....how did you get the notes in the title line? Best wishes, Peter |
Subject: RE: ♫ Venues are a changing. From: Stewart Date: 08 Jan 08 - 03:16 PM ♫ Just go to MW Word or similar program Pull down "Insert" menu Choose "symbol" And choose the musical note and "insert" Then 'copy' it and 'paste' it into the MC Cheers, S. in Seattle |
Subject: RE: ♫ Venues are a changing. From: Waddon Pete Date: 08 Jan 08 - 03:18 PM So easy when you know how! Thanks Stewart! |
Subject: RE: ♫ Venues are a changing. From: Stewart Date: 08 Jan 08 - 03:21 PM Alternatively type "& # 9 8 3 5" without any spaces in between and you'll get it. Cheers again, S. in Seattle |
Subject: RE: ♫ Venues are a changing. From: Skivee Date: 08 Jan 08 - 03:30 PM Jim me lad, arrrr' In order to help you understand Peace's remark (Plus c'est la meme chose, plus ça change) I ran it through the online "Inter-trans" translation which produced this version in English: "Anymore is her meme thing , anymore thanksggiving foreign exchange". I hope that this is useful to you. |
Subject: RE: ♫ Venues are a changing. From: Stewart Date: 08 Jan 08 - 03:40 PM Here in Seattle there does seem to be more small venues (coffee houses, pubs, etc.) that will host live music. The key is an owner who loves the music. Too many times the bottom line is money. If it doesn't bring in more paying customers it may not last. But I like the idea of a "wee folk festival" ♫ S. in Seattle |
Subject: RE: ♫ Venues are a changing. From: Jim Lad Date: 08 Jan 08 - 04:52 PM Well, the bottom line is always money and more and more places seem to be paying out the cover charge. I think too that there is a move away from sitting in pubs and some audiences who were never into sitting in community halls are coming to cafes. █ █ █ █ Jim |
Subject: RE: ♫ Venues are a changing. From: Don Firth Date: 08 Jan 08 - 07:47 PM During the late 1950s and until the middle or late 1960s, there were very few weekend evenings when I was not singing in a coffeehouse somewhere. I've done concerts big and small and participated in the "Seattle Center Hootenannies" in 1963 that drew audiences of up to 15,000 (police estimate of crowd size), but my favorite venue is either coffeehouse or house concert. A vast sea of faces stretching off into the distance such as at the Seattle Center Hootenannies or an audience that I can't see, such as when doing television, tends to make me feel sort of isolated. I like to be able to see individuals in the audience. Much warmer. I heard Linda Ronstadt say in an interview that she hated going on the road and, blinded by spotlights, singing at a huge sea of people "in an arena so large that a guitar break from a concert two weeks ago is still reverberating around the place." She much prefers a small, intimate setting. Easy to see why. I have lots to say on folk festivals, but that's for another time and/or another thread. In any case, small is good! I'm glad to hear this! ♫ Don Firth ♫ |
Subject: RE: ♫ Venues are a changing. From: Amos Date: 08 Jan 08 - 07:52 PM Peace;s wisecrack says "The more things stay the same, the differenter they get" To which I can only add, "Chacun a son mauvais gout." A |
Subject: RE: ? Venues are a changing. From: Charley Noble Date: 08 Jan 08 - 08:13 PM Amos- ""Chacun a son mauvais gout." Which when translated means: "Each to his own ill-tempered goat!" Cheerily, Charley Noble |
Subject: RE: ♫ Venues are a changing. From: Peace Date: 08 Jan 08 - 09:14 PM Someone mention goats? |
Subject: RE: ♫ Venues are a changing. From: Jim Lad Date: 08 Jan 08 - 10:03 PM "Chacun a son mauvais gout." Old Chinese, Acadian proverb. Chihuahuas can't marry goats? I'm all in favour of the smaller venues myself. My only real comment here is that the long predicted change is finally coming to fruition. I'm really tired of playing pubs to counter the fact that folk clubs can't afford very much and do not want to get into the "Demise of the folk festivals" either. What I think may be going on, to put it very simply, is that the audience today is made up of the same individuals who sat in cafes and coffee houses in the sixties. If you don't believe me, count how many men in the audience adjust there hearing aids as soon as the music starts. I won't speculate on why the males who live longest are hard of hearing nor how they lost it. ♪ Jim |
Subject: RE: ♫ Venues are a changing. From: Peace Date: 08 Jan 08 - 10:10 PM I lost mine to rock and roll. Much truth to what you're saying, Jim. However, folk has not exposed itself to the newer generations. It was not presented and found lacking. It's just not been presented in a medium the kids use. That is important, IMO. I am, btw, in awe of your abilities in both music and those music note thingies, fyi. |
Subject: RE: ♫ Venues are a changing. From: Jim Lad Date: 09 Jan 08 - 12:18 AM The young ones are coming on fine, Bruce. As a matter of fact, they don't do it that much differently from "The House of the Rising Sun" days but they are trying out Dave Mathews licks in their own company and not really interested in the traditional stuff. I of course, kneel at the foot of your altar. ► Jim ◄ |
Subject: RE: ♫ Venues are a changing. From: Big Mick Date: 09 Jan 08 - 07:56 AM Jim ...... take off your cap when you say "House of the Rising Sun" ..... ****chuckle**** I really like what I see with the young folks. They really enjoy the older music I do, and they seem to really be into the issue oriented music I am doing by contemporary writers like our George Papavgeris. And they seem to be heading in the same directions that those of us raised in the '60's were, that being they enjoy their version of folk influence music, and they enjoy real trad folk. I guess I am saying that our market isn't just aging baby boomers, these young folks are pretty savvy too. And to bring it around to Jim's premise, the venues seem to be switching to the more intimate. I like that. All the best, ♣ ♫ ♣ ♫ ♣ ♫ ♣ Mick |
Subject: RE: ♫ Venues are a changing. From: Mr Red Date: 09 Jan 08 - 08:10 AM the venues are changing in the UK. Folk Clubs vary in their ability to continue as ever, landlords of the pubs change overnight and new "boutique" managers have no concept of steady, trouble free business or real ale for that matter (don't even get me started on cider). And concert venues have got steadily louder (don't get me started on festivals). I remember seeing Show of Hands in the Countess of Huntingdon Hall in Worcester. An oratry designed for singing and for one hellfire and damnation preacher instilling the fear of erternal retribution in the rapt congregation. So how come a very quiet and attentive audience hearing sensitive music with meaningful lyrics need it so LOUD? It doesn't, it is a want of those that make the decisions. Needs and wants are not the same. I don't want so don't go. Now what ever happened to Folk music? |
Subject: RE: ♫ Venues are a changing. From: Waddon Pete Date: 09 Jan 08 - 08:55 AM Hello, Nothing's happened to folk music! (But quite a lot's happened to this singer and player of it!) With regard to the young...give 'em time...I bet not many of us started out by singing all the verses of Chevy Chase! Best Wishes, Peter |
Subject: RE: ? Venues are a changing. From: Jack Campin Date: 09 Jan 08 - 09:38 AM Has anybody in the UK ever spotted one of those coffee-house thingies over here? I have only the haziest idea what Americans mean when they talk about them. Sounds like a restaurant that serves neither hot food nor alcohol and has both floor spots and resident musicians, which here would stay solvent for about a week. Is Tchai Ovna in Glasgow along the lines they mean? (They only keep going by using premises on the edge of going the way of the House of Usher and furnishing the place from skips). Anyway, we never had them here to abandon and we certainly aren't taking them up now. |
Subject: RE: ♫ Venues are a changing. From: Banjiman Date: 09 Jan 08 - 09:46 AM JC says of coffee house "Anyway, we never had them here to abandon and we certainly aren't taking them up now." No, luckily we still have some pubs left that are prepared to put on/ allow real music...can you imagine folk music without beer......just wouldn't be right!! Paul |
Subject: RE: ♫ Venues are a changing. From: GUEST,ritchie Date: 09 Jan 08 - 09:56 AM Funnily enough I just noticed earlier today that there is a cafe on the Quayside in Newcastle which has started to 'put live' music on and advertises have a snack/coffee/beer and listen to good music" there is a small cover charge. and here is the 'rub' the smaller the venue the higher the cover charge to 'pay for' the acts I would have thought! |
Subject: RE: ♫ Venues are a changing. From: Mark Ross Date: 09 Jan 08 - 11:54 AM "♫", Hey it works! Mark Ross |
Subject: RE: ? Venues are a changing. From: Jack Campin Date: 09 Jan 08 - 12:24 PM What you are seeing as a musical note (I think) looks like a question mark on my system. Numeric character codes are not guaranteed to work across different platforms. |
Subject: RE: ♫ Venues are a changing. From: Peace Date: 09 Jan 08 - 12:39 PM Play "Mary Had a Little Lamb" on your telephone. You all know the rhythm. 3 2 1 2 3 3 3 2 2 2 3 3 3 3 2 1 2 3 3 3 3 2 2 3 2 1 Amaze your friends. Be the hit of the party. |
Subject: RE: ♫ Venues are a changing. From: Peace Date: 09 Jan 08 - 12:42 PM A bit more upbeat-- use 6, 5 and 4 To get called by Mensa, NASA or Homeland Security, use 9,8 and 7. It's amazing what 16 oz of white rum can get a guy to do. |
Subject: RE: ♫ Venues are a changing. From: Big Mick Date: 09 Jan 08 - 01:11 PM ***guffaw*** |
Subject: RE: ♫ Venues are a changing. From: Jim Lad Date: 09 Jan 08 - 01:56 PM Any chord required? |
Subject: RE: ♫ Venues are a changing. From: Peace Date: 09 Jan 08 - 01:59 PM You folks are astonneshing/astonesheng/aschtonishing incredible. |
Subject: RE: ♫ Venues are a changing. From: Dan Keding Date: 09 Jan 08 - 02:04 PM Neighbors, I agree that the smaller clubs and coffeehouses are much more performer friendly. Venues change but often new audiences come with the change - take bookstores for example. Most of my gigs are as a storyteller (have been for over twenty years now) but even in that art I see the smaller venue as an advantage. Storytelling festivals seem to be healthy right now but as we all know that can change. Libraries and schools are still a big part of most storytellers gig list. Enjoy each audience. Dan |
Subject: RE: ♫ Venues are a changing. From: Jim Lad Date: 09 Jan 08 - 02:19 PM Just remember though. No matter how many times the owner tells you that it's only 50 seats and you won't need any gear..... he'll start that coffee scoosher thing up right before the last line of your quietest piece. Guaranteed! |
Subject: RE: ♫ Venues are a changing. From: Stewart Date: 09 Jan 08 - 03:35 PM I'm still looking for that small perfectly-acoustic venue, which needs no sound system, and with an appreciative audience and no "coffee schooser thing" disturbing the music. And that "wee folk festival" sounds intriguing (is that a festival for wee folks, or a wee festival for folks?). Cheers, S. in Seattle |
Subject: RE: ♫ Venues are a changing. From: Bonzo3legs Date: 09 Jan 08 - 04:20 PM We visted a Coffe House in Phoenix, Arizona, which was recommended to us by Bill Zorn. We had a great evening, the names of everyone were placed in a hat and on your name being pulled it was your turn to do a song. I have rarely experienced such enthusiasm - probably because they didn't have the hideous "wesident" system operated in folk clubs in the UK! |
Subject: RE: ♫ Venues are a changing. From: Don Firth Date: 09 Jan 08 - 05:04 PM "Has anybody in the UK ever spotted one of those coffee-house thingies over here? I have only the haziest idea what Americans mean when they talk about them. Sounds like a restaurant that serves neither hot food nor alcohol and has both floor spots and resident musicians, which here would stay solvent for about a week. Is Tchai Ovna in Glasgow along the lines they mean? (They only keep going by using premises on the edge of going the way of the House of Usher and furnishing the place from skips). Anyway, we never had them here to abandon and we certainly aren't taking them up now." Oh, dear! Jack, let me now attempt to plug a hole in your knowledge of history regarding coffeehouses. The following is from a book I am writing about the folk music scene in the Pacific Northwest during the 1950s, 1960s, and beyond, as I saw it. I first began singing regularly in coffeehouses in 1958. By way of background for the book, I put in a considerable amount of research on the history of coffee, and of the phenomenon of the coffeehouse, a most important institution in the gradual development of Civilization. Really! Pour yourself a—er—cup of coffee—sit down, and prop up your feet. This is a fairly long post. As early as Homer, there were stories of a black and bitter brew that had the power to endow increased alertness on those who drank it, but it was not until much later that the details of the discovery of coffee comes into sharper focus.I don't know how things were in the British Isles, but in the United States, and I believe Canada as well (someone correct me if I'm wrong), starting in the mid to late 1950s, a strong association developed between coffeehouses and folk music. The first coffeehouse folksingers were often college students and they frequently sang for tips. But as more coffeehouses came into existence, a level of competition developed, and many of them hired regular singers. The pay was nowhere near what a singer might earn in a nightclub, but picking up anywhere from ten to twenty-five dollars per evening for singing four or five sets a couple nights a week was not bad. Many well-known singers cut their teeth and polished their acts in coffeehouses. For example, when I was singing at "The Place Next Door" in Seattle for $15.00 a night, Joan Baez as singing at the "Club 47" in Boston/Cambridge for $10.00 a night. And as far as the coffeehouses making money, they were usually jam-packed on weekends. In a fascinating book entitled Around the World in Six Glasses, author Tom Standage, explains how early farmers saved surplus grain by fermenting it into beer, the Greeks took grapes and made wine, and Arabs learned how to distill spirits. Water was often unsafe to drink because of the prevalence of water-born diseases, and not knowing that the cause was bacteria, which could be killed by boiling the water, most people tended to avoid water and drank beer or wine, in which the alcohol killed the germs. Which is to say, most people wandered about half-spashed most of the time! When coffee spread from Arabia to Europe and coffeehouses became popular gathering places, for the first time in history since the early discovery of fermentation, people were drinking something which was not only safe to drink (boiling having killed the bacteria), but didn't send them into a foggy stupor! Suddenly, lots of people were alert and could think clearly! Standage credits coffee with being the Universal Solvent that brought about what we now call the Age of Enlightenment. He refers to coffeehouses as being "the Internet of the Age of Reason, facilitating scientific and rational thought." So it seems that Charles II was right to be apprehensive about coffeehouses. The "Rights of Man" movement started over cups of coffee. Respectfully presented for your enlightenment, edification, and general amusement. Don Firth |
Subject: RE: ♫ Venues are a changing. From: Stewart Date: 09 Jan 08 - 06:00 PM Hi Don, You might call these times "The Age of Starbucks." I try to avoid those unfriendly, all-business, move-the-customers-through-as-quickly-as-possible places. Instead I go to the small independent coffee houses (not hard to find in Seattle, you are never more than a block away from a coffee house here). Still it can be a bit disconcerting playing music in a coffee house to a half-dozen or more patrons whose faces are glued to their lap top computers, and are probably annoyed by the musical distraction. But there are certainly some around here that are friendly, comfortable places in which to relax, have a cup of coffee and snack, and listen to some good live music. Cheers, S. in Seattle |
Subject: RE: ? Venues are a changing. From: Jack Campin Date: 09 Jan 08 - 06:19 PM You could add this bit: when coffee roasting arrived in Istanbul it didn't get an easy ride. The Old Testament forbids burnt foods and this Jewish prohibition was adopted by the Muslims. So was coffee really some sort of carbonized pagan sacrifice, or just a rather enthusiastically toasted food? Some local clerics got extremely hot under the turban over it. Part of the problem was that tobacco had arrived at almost the same time, so the Ottomans had two drug problems to cope with at once. Usually the two were consumed in the same places; suddenly there were hundreds of exotic dens where men drank black sludge in rooms so thick with smoke you couldn't see who was in there, which must have been a problem for the Sultan's secret police. (It was also seen as a problem that coffee might impair men's sexual urges). It took several months of committee meetings for the ulema to rule that it was sort of okay, maybe. (Source: Bernard Lewis, "Istanbul and the Civilization of the Ottoman Empire".) |
Subject: RE: ♫ Venues are a changing. From: lefthanded guitar Date: 09 Jan 08 - 06:41 PM How did Mick get the colors? |
Subject: RE: ♫ Venues are a changing. From: GUEST Date: 09 Jan 08 - 07:15 PM As as we see, there's always one in every crowd. -:) |
Subject: RE: ♫ Venues are a changing. From: GUEST,Peace: Date: 09 Jan 08 - 07:16 PM That was me, above. Friend's house. No kookey/cokeey/cuckee/cookey biscuit. |
Subject: RE: ♫ Venues are a changing. From: Don Firth Date: 09 Jan 08 - 08:04 PM Ah, yes! The Age of Starbucks and the advent of the laptop computer. As someone once said, "the times they are a-changin'." During the mid to late 1960s, with the coming of the "British Invasion," and increasing prevalence of "singer-songwriters" in the "Pop-Folk Revival," the coffeehouses like the ones where I usually sang began to close their doors because the audiences just weren't coming anymore. I think that was one of the ravages of traditional music becoming associated in many peoples' minds with "pop-folk," and then, in turn, with popular music in general. And when pop music tastes changed (in come the Beatles, the Rolling Stones, Petula Clark, et. al.), traditional music was no longer "flavor of the month" and it went underground (still here!). But it was a great run while it lasted. The coffeehouses in this area that featured folk singers generally opened at about 7:00 in the evening and stayed open 'til around midnight, or 1:00 a.m. on Fridays and Saturdays. And the singer didn't just sit at a table somewhere; there was usually a riser or small stage area. I generally started my first set about 8:00, and sang four or five 40 minute sets, sort of like a night club act, with twenty minutes between sets, allowing the wait-folks (how's that for "PC?") to circulate among the tables and ask people if they wanted to re-order (hint-hint). This kept a bit of circulation and change of audience going. People came to the coffeehouses mainly to listen to the singer, and justified their existence there to the coffeehouse owner by buying a $1.85 cup of coffee or chocolate and spending another buck or three on a piece of rich pastry. Some coffeehouses were open during the day, but there was usually no singer around. This was when people would sit around talking and solving All the Problems of the World over coffee or tea, or play endless games of chess. Sometimes there would be someone sitting alone at a table, writing furiously on a yellow legal pad with a Ticonderoga No. 2 wooden pencil (another attempt at The Great American Novel). No laptops yet. If a particular coffeehouse that was open during the day featured a folk singer in the evening, they would usually close about 5:00 p.m., then re-open at about 7:00. Starbucks is a whole different breed of cat. The one closest to where I live (Capitol Hill, down on Broadway) has a walk up window. You can plunk down your wad of bills and grab your latté without even going into the place. They may be there, but I don't really know of any coffeehouses around now that feature entertainment in the evenings, like the ones where I used to sing. The ones in Seattle, anyway, were not really "hippy hangouts." They may have had a sort of artsy, Bohemian-style atmosphere, but they were more like non-alcoholic night clubs. They drew a lot of students, but they also drew the posh after-show or after-concert crowd. You'd see the occasional evening gown or tuxedo late in the evening. I did a lot of concerts and sang on television from time to time, but my favorite venue was the coffeehouse. Maybe forty or fifty people, and you don't really need a PA system. Warm, intimate, good rapport with the audience. Good times! Don Firth |
Subject: RE: ♫ Venues are a changing. From: WFDU - Ron Olesko Date: 09 Jan 08 - 08:51 PM Of course, there were never had house concerts back in the day. The poor Brits never experienced a coffeehouse. Naturally times change. There aren't many buggy whip manufacturers around either. |
Subject: RE: ♫ Venues are a changing. From: Bill D Date: 09 Jan 08 - 09:29 PM ♪♫ If you can see the musical notes and Mick's shamrocks, you can make similar stuff & more using this guide Colors are simply a matter of defining them. If you view the HTML 'source' of a page, you can see the patterns. or, if you have a PC, you can cheat with this program, which merely automates the process...(using a bit more code) ☺☻☺☻ |
Subject: RE: ♫ Venues are a changing. From: open mike Date: 10 Jan 08 - 01:01 AM ♫ ♪♫ ♣ ♫ ♣ ♫ ♣ ♫ ♣ |
Subject: RE: ♫ Venues are a changing. From: IanC Date: 10 Jan 08 - 03:16 AM Don I'm really interested that Charles II banned coffee houses in 1700. That's because he died in 1685. Is the rest of the article as accurate? :-) Ian |
Subject: RE: ♫ Venues are a changing. From: Fidjit Date: 10 Jan 08 - 04:39 AM In Norway they call Coffee houses "Kafetria/Cafeteria" But the slang word for them is, "Brun Cafe". Meaning that the place was well used with smoke filled walls/ceiling. There's one in Oslo that still has it's juke box from the fifty's. The records have changed. Although out of respect "Rock Around the Clock" is still in there I believe. Chas |
Subject: RE: ♫ Venues are a changing. From: Grab Date: 10 Jan 08 - 07:56 AM I was most surprised when I went to the Windsor Ontario folk club with DDW (ex-Mudcat) and found that all you could drink was coffee! Even more so another time when he took me to a folk club round a friend's house which was similarly dry. It was a strange experience, playing without a pint inside me. And I'm not convinced by coffee as something that goes naturally with performing music - with the usual slight nerves beforehand, the last thing you want in your system is caffeine! Graham. |
Subject: RE: ♫ Venues are a changing. From: Mr Red Date: 10 Jan 08 - 08:14 AM <font color=red>red</font> looks like: red if you cut and paste from this post |
Subject: RE: ♫ Venues are a changing. From: WFDU - Ron Olesko Date: 10 Jan 08 - 08:41 AM I'm amazed that there seems to be a feeling among the Brits that having a pint is the only way to enjoy the music! I love my pints too, but it seems that the music can be enjoyed just fine without it. |
Subject: RE: ♫ Venues are a changing. From: Maryrrf Date: 10 Jan 08 - 10:10 AM We were able to get our monthly concert series going with the help of a small independent coffee house owner who loved folk music. He usually wasn't open in the evenings, but agreed to open one Saturday night a month for us. We charged admission, which paid for the act, and he made a bit of money on the coffee drinks and snacks. Alas, Jerry was run out of business by a Starbucks. It was very sad. But by that time we had an established audience and moved to a synagogue which offered us a venue. Much nicer acoustically and it's working out very well. We still serve coffee and tea. In the States coffee IS associated with folk music, much more so than beer! |
Subject: RE: ♫ Venues are a changing. From: IanC Date: 10 Jan 08 - 11:26 AM Ron I think the problem is one of choice. In a UK pub, you can drink coffee, lemonade, ginger beer, fruit juice, beer cider, wine whisky ... whatever you want. Certainly for 700 years, we've associated live participatory music (= folk) with pubs and the general atmosphere which goes with it. It's essentially part of the culture. Drinking copious amounts, though popular, isn't necessarily a part of it. :-) Ian |
Subject: RE: ♫ Venues are a changing. From: Singing Referee Date: 10 Jan 08 - 12:08 PM ♧ |
Subject: RE: ♫ Venues are a changing. From: Singing Referee Date: 10 Jan 08 - 12:11 PM Whoops, playing, had accident ♫ sorry! |
Subject: RE: ♫ Venues are a changing. From: WFDU - Ron Olesko Date: 10 Jan 08 - 12:19 PM Ian - very good point. I think here in the United States, where the pub concept never caught on in the same fashion - probably due to the Puritans, our music has been associated with a variety of settings. The back porch, the front porch, the kitchen, the parlor - most places associated with home. In the earliest days of our country, the community gatherings focused on the house of worship and many of our folk organizations still use such spaces. Interesting thoughts - the home and the church still seem to the primary centers of our folk community while the pub appears to the center of yours. |
Subject: RE: ♫ Venues are a changing. From: Grab Date: 10 Jan 08 - 01:17 PM If you'd seen houses in the UK, you'd know why homes aren't gathering places over here. Most folks in the UK can get a maximum of maybe 20 people in their living room, standing elbow to elbow, if they're all pretty friendly with each other. That's why house concerts will simply never take off in the UK, because the only houses with rooms big enough will set you back £500k ($1m) upwards. Playing on the front "porch" ain't going to happen when many front porches open directly onto the road, and UK weather isn't exactly conducive to back porches either. Churches used to be significant gathering places, but Britain is now about the most secular country in the world. Most of Britain never sees the inside of a church except for weddings and funerals (and possibly Christmas). The British have basically discovered that they can get along fine without religion. Which leaves the pub, basically... :-) Graham. |
Subject: RE: ♫ Venues are a changing. From: Bill D Date: 10 Jan 08 - 01:18 PM In the US, different states...and even different counties or cities within a state...have different rules about a license to serve alcohol. This is a carryover from religious restrictions and complicates the issue a lot. Most venues almost require folks to drive to get there, and we do have some serious alcohol abuse in urban areas where many vehicles are involved. Add to that the types of clubs which feature music which is not as ...ummmm...'restrained' as folk, and you have certain states or counties making it much harder and more expensive to obtain a license. Since traditional 'pubs' are not as common here, much folk music happens in places like church basements or rented halls which just don't want to deal with even beer. I am fortunate to live in a large urban area where there ARE a number of venues for folk music that serve alcohol, but some states don't have a large enough folkie population to even push the issue. It is gradually getting better, but it will probably be complicated for many years yet. I DO like the freedom to have a beer when the music is happening....but I also hate to see some folks feel that music REQUIRES alcohol. Sadly, this often leads to a situation of excessive alcohol for some. If your lifestyle includes expecting to be drunk every weekend evening, then perhaps many years of 'tradition' need to be re-evaluated. Not an easy issue to resolve, is it? I'd LOVE to see more freedom and folk-friendly pub venues here in the US....but few of them would be neighborhood places where many of the customers can walk home. |
Subject: RE: ♫ Venues are a changing. From: Jim Lad Date: 10 Jan 08 - 01:29 PM "It was a strange experience, playing without a pint inside me." I never drink before playing nor have I ever enjoyed hearing any paid performer play with a drink in him/her. I've never offered my doctor, plumber or any tradesman a pint before they set about their work and would be disinclined to hire them if I thought they were too nervous for the job. I have been driven out by musicians who put their drinking before their work. Sorry. Just had to get that off my chest. Ω JIM |
Subject: RE: ♫ Venues are a changing. From: Stewart Date: 10 Jan 08 - 02:06 PM Jim Lad - I agree, it's nice to have a pint of beer, but only after I perform. And here in the States, pubs are much different places. I've played in several in Seattle. An Irish session in a nice Irish pub, the room is very nice and free Guinness is good, good food too, but the occasional (or not so occasional) drunk or alcoholic musician, the noise particularly after a game (it is walking distance from two major sports stadiums), makes it less than desirable. A musician's showcase in another Irish pub (but you wouldn't know it was Irish), musicians playing mostly to other musicians, most of the other patrons more interested in the game on TV (that rousing cheer in the middle of your song is simply because of a score in the game) or pool table or other gaming machines, very noisy room with poor acoustics and not very good sound system. Again not the best place for music. A fisherman's pub, a large room, fairly good acoustics (after the TV is turned off), but only musicians listening to other musicians on an otherwise quiet week night (few other patrons), and the owner making little money from the musicians decides to cancel our music and bring in a rock band. So that leaves the coffee house, book store, house jam or house concert. I've hosted several house concerts, often with a jam after the concert. That can be vary nice. Cheers, S. in Seattle |
Subject: RE: ♫ Venues are a changing. From: WFDU - Ron Olesko Date: 10 Jan 08 - 03:12 PM Graham - I wasn't suggesting that the U.K. should adapt U.S. folk venue standards, just pointing out the differences. As you pointed out, there would be issues of having such concerts in your country. Our bars and taverns do not serve the same purpose as your pubs either. While our houses might be larger and spread out in many areas, I've attended "house" concerts in NYC apartments. 20 people in a room would be fine for some performers - our house concerts usually draw 20 to 50 depending on how large of a home. As for churches, besides what the media portrays as the religious right, I think most Americans also rarely visit a house of worship - or at least not on a regular basis. I can safely say I've attended more concerts in churches in the last year then I have worship services in the last 30! That is just me, and I wasn't bragging - but I do think it is typical of the majority of our folkie audiences. |
Subject: RE: ♫ Venues are a changing. From: Jim Lad Date: 10 Jan 08 - 03:37 PM Small churches make wonderful venues and provide a most intimate experience for worship. There is much more to it than just the acoustics though with regards to it not being done in the U.K. As for house concerts... I have to agree that houses in Britain are much too small although 20 guests at a house concert is a reasonable figure. I'd be quite happy with that and would expect to sell 20 albums. Get into the community hall and you can expect to sell one album for every 10 patrons. Coffee shops... again, not going to sell so much (around 10%) as a house concert but still decent. |
Subject: RE: ♫ Venues are a changing. From: Maryrrf Date: 10 Jan 08 - 03:39 PM Churches or synagogues are sometimes willing to let their premises be used as venues, and often their fee is very reasonable. They have the chairs, space, etc. so that's where a lot of small concerts are held. The audience doesn't have to be religious by any means. |
Subject: RE: ♫ Venues are a changing. From: Don Firth Date: 10 Jan 08 - 03:40 PM Holy Smoke!!! IanC, thank you for pointing out the boo-boo! I don't know where that 1700 figure came from unless I screwed up in my first draft. I checked and came up with this: In 1675, Charles II 'called for the suppression of all coffee-houses in London as being places where the disaffected met, and spread scandalous reports concerning the conduct of his Majesty and his Ministers'. The uproar that followed forced Charles to cancel this edict.From HERE. I'm going to dig through my files and re-re-check my original sources. If you spotted any other goofs, please let me know. And again, thank you!! Don Firth |
Subject: RE: ? Venues are a changing. From: Jack Campin Date: 10 Jan 08 - 03:54 PM Grab, it's quite common for older Scottish flats to have some much larger rooms than English ones. The nothing-special Glasgow tenement flat I used to live in (living room, one bedroom, kitchen, bathroom) had the living room big enough that I once had two sets of an eightsome reel going at once without even moving all the furniture. I could have seated at least as many people as the Wee Folk Club at the Royal Oak in Edinburgh does. Being the part of Glasgow that it was, my neighbour in the ground floor flat had his living room furnished with a bar counter complete with tap and keg fitting so he could use it as a practice space for an Orange flute band. |
Subject: RE: Venues are a changing. From: Stewart Date: 10 Jan 08 - 03:57 PM Then there's the grange hall. Most rural communities in the US have an old grange hall, and many have been restored and are used for folk music and dancing. Just put "grange hall folk music" into google and you'll find many of those. They're usually small wooden buildings with fantastic acoustics (no sound system necessary) and a great community feeling. Across from Seattle on Bainbridge Island is a great grange hall venue hosting the Seabold Second Saturday Open Mic (no mic). A great venue - only problem, for us mainlanders we have to leave early to catch the ferry back home, and it's so popular you enter a lottery and may or may not get to play that evening. Cheers, S, in Seattle |
Subject: RE: Venues are a changing. From: Jim Lad Date: 10 Jan 08 - 04:48 PM Think I had that album... "The Clancy Brothers & Tommy Makem in Person at Jack Campin's Single End" |
Subject: RE: Venues are a changing. From: Don Firth Date: 10 Jan 08 - 05:00 PM I've guzzled downright unhealthy amounts of coffee while singing in coffeehouses and never had a problem as far as nerves are concerned. The only problem was that after finishing a gig near midnight, I sometimes didn't get to sleep until 4:00 a.m. So I started cutting back a bit. But it never did bother my nerves. One evening, the owner of "The Place Next Door" (next door to the Guild 45th theater—played foreign and art films—and owned by the same guy, hence, "the place next door.") brought me a new drink he'd been working on. In addition to specialty coffees, teas, pastries, sandwiches, and such, he had a couple of fruit-flavored fizzy drinks on the menu, and this was an addition he was concocting. It was very tasty. But (and this would definitely not be served to the customers because of booze licenses and such) the one he gave me was laced with vodka. I guess I was pretty entertaining that night because he said that he thought I should stay a little juiced all the time! I never had all that much problem with nerves, fortunately. The first time I sang for a crowd of any size (1955), I thought there would be maybe twenty or twenty-five people there and when I walked in, the audience was more like 250! My hands were trembling so hard that the guitar accompaniment to my first song was pretty sloppy, but they applauded enthusiastically, and once I realized they weren't going to lynch me, I was okay. Another time was before I did my first television show (1959). This was before videotape was in widespread use, and at the time KCTS was a low-budget educational station (now, it's a big PBS affiliate). Studio videotape machines cost about $50,000, and they couldn't afford one yet, so my show was live! We were well rehearsed and I knew exactly what I was going to do, but during the half-hour before we went on the air, I had to go down the hall and pee about six times. Fortunately the show went off like clockwork because I was in a stupor. Sally, the producer, spotted my nervousness and we chatted a bit. She said, "You're probably thnking about the thousands of people who are watching, right?" I allowed as how that was so. She said, "You don't get nervous if you're singing for just a couple of people, do you?" Well, no. "Okay," she said, "just remember that you're coming through a television set, and there are usually no more than a couple of people watching a single set. So, there you are. It sometimes helps if you sing the show to someone you know is watching." Thank, you, Sally! The next show I was keyed up, but not nervous. I started felling like an old hand at it. One of the best pieces of advice I ever got about nerves is when I auditioned to get into the University of Washington School of Music. I was auditioning for Dr. Stanley Chappell, the head of the school. I got through the first few measures of a fairly easy classic guitar piece, then completely blew it. Came unglued. Dr. Chappell stopped me. He knew how much this meant to me and completely understood. So we chatted a bit, and he said, "The main reason young musicians get nervous in auditions or have stage-fright—other than not being well prepared—is that they're thinking more about what the audience will think of them than they are about the music they're performing. Now, I want you to ignore me and think about the music and what it expresses. Okay, let's try it again." This time I played it reasonably well, and Dr. Chappell okayed my admission to the school. I learned a lot there, but I think that was one of the most important things. I don't drink that much coffee anymore. Too much, even decaf, and it bothers my stomach. Onset of geezerhood, I guess. Don Firth |
Subject: RE: Venues are a changing. From: Carol Date: 10 Jan 08 - 05:04 PM Sorry but how come you've lost the ♫ ? |
Subject: RE: Venues are a changing. From: Jim Lad Date: 10 Jan 08 - 05:07 PM Who knows? Somebody probably complained about the fun. Wish they'd jump on some of the offensive stuff as quickly. |
Subject: RE: Venues are a changing. From: Brendy Date: 11 Jan 08 - 11:31 PM "What I'm experiencing now is that a whole number of cafes are being run by 50 & ups who happen to be former folk musicians" If you take the word 'cafe' and replace it with any other type of social gathering point, then reiterate with Stewart's point that "...the key is an owner who loves the music.", then I think that is a fairly good reading of the way that it is going at the present. Banjiman notes that "... luckily we still have some pubs left that are prepared to put on/ allow real music...", but again the key to it all is the engagement and enthusiasm of the owner of the place; one who is more interested in 'providing' than in 'selling' the product. "I'm really tired of playing pubs to counter the fact that folk clubs can't afford very much" I think the term 'playing pubs' generates a negative attitude towards that end of the entertainment spectrum; some of it is justified, but moreso because of the audience one expects in the places, who generally speaking want nothing else only the 'Come All Ye...' songs. The trick, there, is to get those eejits out of the place on the nights you want to run a 'Folk Club' in the place. Pubs operate on a monthly/quarterly budget. If they don't they're not good managers. Those that provide entertainment, also have a monthly/--- budget: Their accountant takes their ingoings with outgoings, subtracts one from the other and tells you how much you can spend on Entertainment. Most of the Friday/Sat night crowd will not be there when you have the 'Tuesday Night Folk Club', or whatever, in that pub, and if the thing is advertised well enough , especially by the pub, as part of their 'Entertainment Schedule', then the whole thing is a lot more integrated; no different from 'Darts Night' There are a lot of Folk musicians who make excuses for the music, that it is outside the mainstream and somehow inferior because of it, but the main judges of that should be the public. How the public have it presented to them is also a key to it's success. The kids are coming on fine, yes, but as you say, Jim, they're turning their heads away from the traditional, and, personally, I don't think that is a particularly good direction for the pendulum to swing, because as Peace says "...folk has not exposed itself to the newer generations. It was not presented and found lacking. It's just not been presented in a medium the kids use."... and, because the new proprietors of these 'new' Folk Clubs (the above mentioned 50's and upwards), are not of the IT generation, the kids (who most definitely are), have the ups on us. I think now with Pub Culture going mad in Britain, the (on the whole) gentler, folk music audience, will take their music away from the pubs themselves. Coffee-houses, Book stores, Irish and English pubs the World over (if they designate a night for it....and promote the damn thing...), will be the inheritors of the 'Folk Club' mantle in future years. B. |
Subject: RE: Venues are a changing. From: Jim Lad Date: 12 Jan 08 - 01:11 AM Allow me to rephrase in such a manner that no-one will come along and feel the need to interpret this for me. "I am sick of playing in pubs." There! I think that came out just right. Cheers! Jim |
Subject: RE: Venues are a changing. From: Brendy Date: 12 Jan 08 - 01:18 AM What is it about playing in pubs that you don't like, Jim? B. |
Subject: RE: Venues are a changing. From: Jim Lad Date: 12 Jan 08 - 02:41 AM I'm sick of it! |
Subject: RE: Venues are a changing. From: Brendy Date: 12 Jan 08 - 02:43 AM Oh. B. |
Subject: RE: Venues are a changing. From: Jim Lad Date: 12 Jan 08 - 02:47 AM Aye! |
Subject: RE: Venues are a changing. From: Jim Lad Date: 12 Jan 08 - 03:00 AM On the bright side. Tonight I'll be the feature at the "Coffee House" in the local community hall which is actually a well preserved "Settler's Cabin". It's a one room, log cabin and there will be somewhere between 20 & 30 in attendance. The pot bellied wood stove will be burning next to the stage. Tea, coffee and cakes laid out at the back of the room and someone may remember to take donations at the door. There will be a few locals doing the warm up (my favourite part of these evenings) and there will be children of all ages. Looking forward to that. |
Subject: RE: Venues are a changing. From: Don Firth Date: 12 Jan 08 - 04:58 PM Sounds ideal, Jim! Don Firth |
Subject: RE: Venues are a changing. From: Waddon Pete Date: 13 Jan 08 - 04:14 PM How did the evening go, Jim? Best wishes, Peter |
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