BS: British Values

Subject: BS: British Values
From: GUEST,PMB
Date: 12 Mar 08 - 04:57 AM

In the thread over there ---> about swearing to the Queen, there was a mention of the current government's obsession with "British values". Maybe we should talk about what these values actually are, what we see them as and how others see them.

Here's a few of mine:

Stiff upper lip old girl.
Old maids playing warm cricket on bicycles in the rain.
1/10 a pint. No ladies in the vault.
Half a crown behind the bike sheds.
If I let you do it, everyone would want to do it.
Who do you think you are, the Queen of Sheba?
Morris Minor Travellers.
I'll tell the teacher and you'll get the cane.
Fur coat and no knickers.
Cars stopping at zebra crossings.

Subject: RE: BS: British Values
From: Emma B
Date: 12 Mar 08 - 06:59 AM

How about 'It's more than my job's worth mate' ?
and queuing .............

Subject: RE: BS: British Values
From: Bryn Pugh
Date: 12 Mar 08 - 07:05 AM

I'll show you mine if you'll show me yours . . .

Subject: RE: BS: British Values
From: Georgiansilver
Date: 12 Mar 08 - 07:40 AM

You can't call that folk music pal!
You can still be hung for four offences in the UK:- Sheep stealing! The law was never repealed. Arson in HM Dockyards, Treason and Piracy on the high seas. Great values there.......take a life and you get life!...or do you?
Fish and Chips!...don't forget to join the queue correctly.
Queens English.....do yo have a plam in your mouth?
Yes anyone from anywhere in the world can claim money from the 'Social'
Dogsh** on the sidewalk/pavement....why not?
Chewing gum all over the streets of the towns/cities.
Rubbish/garbage dumped wherever.
People sleeping rough on the streets.
Our soldiers fighting wars and losing their lives...For Who and What?
Church on Sunday? No of course not...that's a thing of the past...what do you mean 'Thank the Lord for the Harvest'? He didn't genetically modify our crops did He?
Can't find a National Health dentist?
Still on the waiting list for the operation...guess you live in the wrong postcode area.
Gun culture on the increase...no problem....kids and teachers getting stabbed in school...no problem.
Someone accidentally hurts you...sue the pants off them!!! Don't forget to call.......Injury Lawyers for You.....then you'll get 100% of your compensation!
Love is what?...no get married for a while and then leave...it's a good game!
No, you left me so you can't see the kids!!!!

I could go on all day!!!!

Subject: RE: BS: British Values
From: Rapparee
Date: 12 Mar 08 - 09:07 AM

Bringing "civilization" to benighted heathens.
Shooting up Afghanistan.
Boiling alive.
Drawing and quartering.
Giving smallpox-infected blankets to the Iroquois.
Fighting with the French.
Fighting with the Dutch.
Fighting with the Spanish.
Fighting with the Irish.
Fighting with the Welsh.
Fighting with the Scots.
Fighting with the Germans.
Fighting with each other.
Football hooliganism at home and abroad.
Forcing opium on the Chinese.
Imperialism.

Subject: RE: BS: British Values
From: Rapparee
Date: 12 Mar 08 - 09:36 AM

And, of course, Cecil Rhodes.

Subject: RE: BS: British Values
From: Sorcha
Date: 12 Mar 08 - 09:55 AM

Mike, a lot of what you listed isn't just British...it's global.
How about TEA?

Subject: RE: BS: British Values
From: GUEST,Dazbo at work
Date: 12 Mar 08 - 10:06 AM

Nope, Georgiansilver, there is no death penalty in Britain - outlawed by the EU.

Subject: RE: BS: British Values
From: Georgiansilver
Date: 12 Mar 08 - 10:54 AM

Dazbo....although it would never happen anyway..the laws governing those offences have never been repealed so technically they could be used.......

Sorcha I guess I knew that but no harm in letting everyone know we're really no different.
Best wishes, mIke.

Subject: RE: BS: British Values
From: GUEST,Darowyn
Date: 12 Mar 08 - 11:39 AM

According to Stephen Fry (-general ignorance round of QI-) those laws were all repealed, and not at the behest of the EU, but because they were superceded by UK law reforms.
Cheers
Dave

Subject: RE: BS: British Values
From: Bryn Pugh
Date: 12 Mar 08 - 11:47 AM

In any event, wherever would we find a hangman ?

Subject: RE: BS: British Values
From: GUEST,Dazbo at work
Date: 12 Mar 08 - 12:09 PM

All outstanding laws allowing capital punishment were repealed in 1998 with no right to re-instate capital punishment for any crime at any time whilst the UK is signed up to the convention.

Subject: RE: BS: British Values
From: Rasener
Date: 12 Mar 08 - 12:14 PM

Cut yer head, go see the hospital for a dose of MRSA
Protect you family against thugs and finish up in jail, in hospital or 6 foot under.
We will cut binge drinking by charging more for alcohol - great idea that.
We will cut fraud by introducing chip and pin. Ha - great idea that.
Kick F*** out of our Firemen, Servicemen, Police, Hospital Staff - thats progress.

I better stop before I get sued. I'll get me lawyer.

Subject: RE: BS: British Values
From: GUEST,Appaloosa Lady
Date: 12 Mar 08 - 12:35 PM

4 June 1940 - Sir Winston Churchill stepped up to the microphone, as his people crowded around their radios and listened...

"I have, myself, full confidence that if all do their duty, if nothing is neglected, and if the best arrangements are made, as they are being made, we shall prove ourselves once again able to defend our Island home, to ride out the storm of war, and to outlive the menace of tyranny, if necessary for years, if necessary alone.

At any rate, that is what we are going to try to do. That is the resolve of His Majesty's Government-every man of them. That is the will of Parliament and the nation.

The British Empire and the French Republic, linked together in their cause and in their need, will defend to the death their native soil, aiding each other like good comrades to the utmost of their strength.

Even though large tracts of Europe and many old and famous States have fallen or may fall into the grip of the Gestapo and all the odious apparatus of Nazi rule, we shall not flag or fail.

We shall go on to the end, we shall fight in France.
We shall fight on the seas and oceans,
We shall fight with growing confidence and growing strength in the air
We shall defend our Island, whatever the cost may be
We shall fight on the beaches
We shall fight on the landing grounds
We shall fight in the fields and in the streets
We shall fight in the hills
We shall never surrender
And even if, which I do not for a moment believe, this Island or a large part of it were subjugated and starving, then our Empire beyond the seas, armed and guarded by the British Fleet, would carry on the struggle, until, in God's good time, the New World, with all its power and might, steps forth to the rescue and the liberation of the old."



William Wilberforce!

"So enormous, so dreadful, so irremediable did the Trade's wickedness appear that my own mind was completely made up for Abolition. Let the consequences be what they would, I from this time determined that I would never rest until I had effected its abolition."

"God Almighty has set before me two great objects, the suppression of the slave trade and the reformation of manners."


Brits At Their Best

Subject: RE: BS: British Values
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 12 Mar 08 - 12:42 PM

Has no-one British anything to be proud of?

The earliest stirrings of democracy in the world (Greece does not count, slaves did not have the vote).
The literary roots of the most widely spoken language in the world.
The cradle of the most widely practised economic system in the world.
The origins of the most widely copied educational form in the world.
The origins of the most widely copied legal system in the world.
First formulators of the "separation of powers" doctrine.
The creators of three of the most widely played sports in the world. (association football, cricket, and golf) maybe four if you take American football to be an errant form of rugby.
Yes, the stiff upper lip. Stuff you if you don't like it.
Until recently, tolerance of difference, allowance for the foibles of others.
Yes, queuing.
Until recently, self reliance.
Real beer.
Real cider.
Roast beef.
Chicken Tikka Mossala.
A range of strange "Chinese" dishes unlike anything ever eaten in China.
Karl Marx did most of his writing here.
Refuge for wave after wave of refugees of different types (until recently).l

Yes, we have faults too. Don't you? I think I am not a racist, but I am proud to be English.

Subject: RE: BS: British Values
From: GUEST,PMB
Date: 12 Mar 08 - 01:07 PM

Oy Richard don't get carried away. Quite a lot of countries got democracy before we did even if Greece doesn't count- women didn't get the vote here till the 1920s. And American football, rugby and soccer (and all-in wrestling, D-Day and sado- masochistic orgies) are all weedy watered down versions of Shrovetide football.

Some more British values:

Fry's 5 boys chocolate
Paddling in the sea with trousers rolled up
Knotted hankies on the head on the beach
Wait half an hour, then three turn up at once
Bank holiday traffic jams
Fighting at the January sales
Curry powder
Buying rounds
Mispronouncing Welsh placenames
Rainy bank holidays
Allotment sheds
Pigeon racing
Whippets in flat caps and mufflers
Mutually incomprehensible dialects changing every 5 miles
Curlers and fags
Scrambling to get the washing in when the rain starts
Parodies of God Save The Queen
Resurfacing a road then digging it up a month later
Milk on the doorstep

Subject: RE: BS: British Values
From: Rasener
Date: 12 Mar 08 - 01:07 PM

>>Has no-one British anything to be proud of?<<

Of course - our English Rugby, Football and Cricket Teams.

>>I am proud to be English<<

I am, but not proud of our yob culture and binge drinking culture. Sort that lot our and then we are talking.

Subject: RE: BS: British Values
From: GUEST,Appaloosa Lady
Date: 12 Mar 08 - 01:24 PM

We are a wonderful country Richard and I am very proud to be British.

We have simply forgotten the beauty and the *good* history that lies within this nation, alongside the bad, because for so very long we've let people tell us nothing BUT the bad. It has had a devastating effect on this country and it's way past time to change.

Here's a few Brits to remember, to give David Beckham a run for his money.

Christopher Wren
Isaace Newton
Samuel Pepys
Bede
St. Boniface
King Arthur
Robert The Bruce
Geoffrey Chaucer
Owain Glyndawr
William Caxton
William Shakespeare
Thomas Hobbes
John Locke
John Wesley
Dr. Samuel Johnson
Lancelot 'Capability' Brown
Captain James Cook
James Watt
Thomas Paine
Edward Jenner
William Blake
Lord Nelson
Robert Burns
William Wilberforce
William Wordsworth
Jane Austen
Elizabeth Fry
Edith Cavell
Florence Nightingale
George Stephenson
Michael Faraday
Anthony Ashley Cooper
Isambard Kingdom Brunel
John Stuart Mill
Charles Darwin
Alfred, Lord Tennyson
Charles Dickens
Dr. David Livingstone
John Ruskin
William Booth
William Morris
Andrew Carnegie
Joseph Rowntree
Thomas Hardy
Dr. Thomas J. Barnado
Alexander Graham Bell
Sir Edward Elgar
Emmeline Pankhurst
Robert Falcon Scott
Edwin Lutyens
Ernest Shackleton
Marie Stopes
Winston Churchill
Alexander Fleming
John Logie Baird
T. S. Eliot
Charlie Chaplin
Agatha Christie
Amy Johnson
Leonard Cheshire
Donald Campbell
Stephen Hawking
Anita Roddick
Beatrix Potter
Elizabeth Barrett-Browning
Robert Browning
The Bronte Sisters

The National Trust
The RSPCA
The NSPCC
English Heritage



The list is endless....

Subject: RE: BS: British Values
From: Rasener
Date: 12 Mar 08 - 01:36 PM

This makes me proud together with the performers involved.
CLIC Sargent

Subject: RE: BS: British Values
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 12 Mar 08 - 02:26 PM

Just about all those lists are "English values", insofar as they are vakues at all. I doubtvery much if there is any sense intalkig about "BVritish values", unless you are a Scot trying to get by as Prime minister down in London.

I don't mean to say that there aren't lots of "values" shared between Scotland and England and Wales - but I am pretty sure that they would be held in common with a lot of other countries.

The term "values " in this context is a bit odd; it seems to be begging the question. Better to think in terms of "qualities" or "characteristics",because that doesn't presuppose that all of them are indsputably to be valued.

I'd put a tendency to get embarrassed pretty high in the list. And a rekuctance to get impressed.

Subject: RE: BS: British Values
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 12 Mar 08 - 02:32 PM

Just about all those lists are "English values", insofar as they are values at all. I doubt very much if there is any sense in talking about "British values", unless you are a Scot trying to get by as Prime Minister down in London.

I don't mean to say that there aren't lots of "values" shared between Scotland and England and Wales - but I am pretty sure that they would be held in common with a lot of other countries.

The term "values " in this context is a bit odd; it seems to be begging the question. Better to think in terms of "qualities" or "characteristics", because that doesn't presuppose that all of them are indisputably to be valued.

I'd put a tendency to get embarrassed pretty high in the list. And a reluctance to get impressed.

Subject: RE: BS: British Values
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 12 Mar 08 - 07:20 PM

PMB, I had the Magna Carta and the Bill of Rights in mind when I spoke of the "earliest stirrings" of democracy.

Robert the Bruce, however, I believe, would betray anyone in his own interest.

Wilberforce was however an ex-slaveowner and first put his arguments against slavery on the basis that it was less profitable than wage-slavery. Don't believe all the propaganda about him.

Subject: RE: BS: British Values
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 12 Mar 08 - 07:31 PM

It's perfectly valid to put arguments like that which appeal to the self-interest of people who probably aren't too interested in anyone except themselves. No different from trying to dissuade someone from committing a crime by telling them they are likely to be caught, rather than by trying to argue morality. You use the arguments that are more likely to work.

Subject: RE: BS: British Values
From: TRUBRIT
Date: 12 Mar 08 - 11:56 PM

Guest PMB -- your list was perfect!

Subject: RE: BS: British Values
From: Gervase
Date: 13 Mar 08 - 04:56 AM

Happy slapping
"You lookin' at me? 'Ave some of that..."
"Ingerland, Ingerland, Ingerland..."
"Facking poof"
"I 'ate Pakis."
"But 'e said 'e really loved me, and now 'e don't want to see the baby."
"Delivering supply chain solutions"
The Daily Mail
Battery hens
Keg beer
Pools of vomit on the pavement
"Effin' foreigners"
Jeffrey Archer

Sorry, a bit negative, I know. I think I'll stick with Ian Dury's list!

Subject: RE: BS: British Values
From: Bryn Pugh
Date: 13 Mar 08 - 05:02 AM

Did you say something about a Lawyer, Villan ?

:-)

Subject: RE: BS: British Values
From: Rasener
Date: 13 Mar 08 - 05:16 AM

I think Gervase needs on as well :-)

Subject: RE: BS: British Values
From: Stu
Date: 13 Mar 08 - 07:28 AM

Wat Tyler
Bonnie Prince Charlie
Martin Carthy
William Wallace
The Tolpuddle Martyrs
Gerald Winstanley and The Diggers
Anyone from Britain who has ever played or managed Aston Villa
Michael Cane
John, Paul, George and Ringo
Andy Irvine
Alec Finn
Whelks
Marxism
Julie Fowlis
Iron Maiden
Trade Unionism
Neovenator salerii
Stefan Sobell
Arbor Low
CND
ELO
BBC
RSC

Subject: RE: BS: British Values
From: GUEST,Appaloosa Lady
Date: 13 Mar 08 - 07:42 AM

>>>Wat Tyler
Bonnie Prince Charlie
Martin Carthy
William Wallace
The Tolpuddle Martyrs
Gerald Winstanley and The Diggers
Anyone from Britain who has ever played or managed Aston Villa
Michael Cane
John, Paul, George and Ringo
Andy Irvine
Alec Finn
Whelks
Marxism
Julie Fowlis
Iron Maiden
Trade Unionism
Neovenator salerii
Stefan Sobell
Arbor Low
CND
ELO
BBC
RSC<<<<


AND....JOHN TAMS

Subject: RE: BS: British Values
From: Grab
Date: 13 Mar 08 - 08:22 AM

English values? A nice compromise between healthy scepticism when someone tries to sell you something (compared to the American popular attitude of buying what Mr Advert tells you) and a general desire to hold out for a certain standard of fairness (compared to the ultra-cynical Mediterranean attitude of "I'm in power now so let's fleece them, because the others would only do the same").

Part of the healthy scepticism means that we don't go for the whole "my country right or wrong" thing, because most Brits see that (rightly) as powermongering bollocks.

Generally this leads to the one true test of a Brit: understatement. It doesn't do to be too fanatical about a cause (see "healthy scepticism"). So you know who's truly outstanding, one-in-a-million quality in Britain, because they'll be described as "a bit good". :-)

Graham.

Subject: RE: BS: British Values
From: jonm
Date: 13 Mar 08 - 08:52 AM

The greatnesses of English culture, literature, music, politics and administration have all been gently parodied by Terry Pratchett, who is someone who would not exist in any other country!

Subject: RE: BS: British Values
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 13 Mar 08 - 02:28 PM

English values, not too hard to come up with a list of sorts. But "British" values, that's something else entirely. (And "values" is a daft word in this context anyway.)

Subject: RE: BS: British Values
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 13 Mar 08 - 05:51 PM

Er - when I said "tolerance" I did not mean to imply any such thing for Margaret Thatcher or Teribus. Or indeed ultra-right wing parties who periodically ask me to sue people for libel who have told the truth about them, and who I periodically refuse.

Subject: RE: BS: British Values
From: Bryn Pugh
Date: 14 Mar 08 - 06:35 AM

You and me both, Richard.

Nice to be able to turn work away in that context, ain't it ?

Subject: RE: BS: British Values
From: Folk Form # 1
Date: 14 Mar 08 - 07:00 AM

Paage 3 girls. Now these are values I would embrace.

Subject: RE: BS: British Values
From: theleveller
Date: 14 Mar 08 - 08:58 AM

There's an entire volume full in 'England in Particular' published by Common Ground

see
www.commonground.org.uk

Subject: RE: BS: British Values
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 14 Mar 08 - 03:19 PM

For many years the New Statesman has run a "This England" column, made of up snippets from the press sent in by readers which are seen as illustrating some (normally daft) aspect of English life. It's well worth paying it a visit.

Perhaps the aspect of this that is relevant to this thread is the fact that clearly the (quite justifiable) assumption is that readers will take pleasure, and indeed a measure of pride, in the daftness.

I somehow doubt whether a simlar column be appreciated too well in quite a lot of other countries.

And I can't imagine a "This Britain" column in a similar vein either.