BS: Pope on pedophile priests

Subject: RE: BS: Pope on pedophile priests
From: Stringsinger
Date: 10 Oct 09 - 12:55 PM

The Pope has outlived any usefulness he may have had. He is the supreme authoritarian in a world which requires compassion, not bullying. He reserves to himself the right of King to determine the fate of the world.

Pedophilia is an outgrowth of blind obedience to authority.

We see this on C Street with the rise of the Family Christian Mafia.

Fortunately, there are Catholics who question their religion's right to destructive edicts.
Not all Catholics apparently think the Pope is right.

Subject: BS: Pope on pedophile priests and pumping hard
From: Donuel
Date: 09 Oct 09 - 06:00 PM

eww

I believe today that my conduct is in accordance with the will of the Almighty Creator.
George Bush

Subject: RE: BS: Pope on pedophile priests
From: Joe Offer
Date: 09 Oct 09 - 10:33 AM

Cardinal Mahony of Los Angeles gets a lot of flak from both sides. The extreme liberals accuse him of covering up sexual abuse by refusing to permit prosecutors to have full access to priest personnel records. The extreme conservatives accuse him of having a "homosexual agenda" (a codeword for anything that is not extremely conservative). They also complain that he does not speak loudly enough against abortion - which, in their minds, makes him pro-abortion.

The fact of the matter is that Mahony is a moderate, trying to serve everyone he's supposed to be serving. He's not really a dynamic personality, but he's a good man who tries to deal with things rationally. There's no way he can satisfy the people at the extremes. Instead of bowing to the angry extremists like many bishops do, Mahony largely ignores them.

I go to the annual Los Angeles Religious Education Congress that Mahony sponsors, and it's a wonderful event - the largest annual gathering of Catholics in the US, with 40,000 people attending. The Congress draws the best Catholic speakers in the country, and the liturgical celebrations are festivals of song and dance (even though Rome thinks dance is not part of US culture and shouldn't be part of liturgy).

I knew Mahony had dedicated a chapel to the victims of abuse, but I haven't heard any comments reacting to the gesture. It's true that no apology or financial settlement or legal action can make up for the terrible wrong that has been done, but I think that Mahony and many other bishops have done what they can. Others act like callous business executives and listen to their lawyers more than to the tenets of their faith.

Benedict has frequently spoken out against priest sexual abuse since shortly after he was elected Pope. John Paul II didn't. I don't think he was callous - he was simply blind. Having been brought up to believe the Church was the infallible opponent to fascism and communism, he just didn't seem to be able to accept the fact that some aspects of his Church are deeply flawed. Benedict seems to have a far more realistic view.

-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS: Pope on pedophile priests
From: Ed T
Date: 08 Oct 09 - 05:54 PM

More on RC Bishop Raymond Lahey and his travel extensively to source countries for child pornography.


http://news.ca.msn.com/top-stories/cbc-article.aspx?cp-documentid=22151704

Subject: RE: BS: Pope on pedophile priests
From: Alice
Date: 04 Oct 09 - 10:51 AM

That news is from 2003, by the way.

Subject: RE: BS: Pope on pedophile priests
From: Alice
Date: 04 Oct 09 - 10:48 AM

Another article ads more info than the previous link:

"...But Grant told the Times that 'clearly this continues to be about the cardinal and not the victims. I think Cardinal Mahony knew that if victims were aware of this ahead of time, they'd be here telling parishioners that real change needs to happen -- and that the priests who abused them are not yet behind bars.'

THE SUNDAY AFTER THE DEDICATION of the chapel, protestors entered the cathedral with a large wooden cross, covered with pictures of clergy abuse victims, said the June 2 Los Angeles Times. With news cameras in train, the protestors placed the cross in the chapel dedicated to victims of sexual abuse and began fixing pictures of abuse victims to the bulletin boards provided by the archdiocese for that purpose. When these were filled, protestors began taping photographs to the chapel walls. Some of the photographs showed the priests who protestors said had abused them...."

scroll down this page to read the full article http://www.losangelesmission.com/ed/news/0703news.htm

Subject: RE: BS: Pope on pedophile priests
From: Alice
Date: 04 Oct 09 - 10:41 AM

MtheGM, I did a bing.com search on "chapel for abused in Los Angeles Catholic" and the first that came up is this article in the Los Angeles Times.

Chapel Dedicated for Victims of Sex Abuse
click here May 26, 2003

Subject: RE: BS: Pope on pedophile priests
From: Ed T
Date: 04 Oct 09 - 10:18 AM

I suspect there is the church, the organization, and the church the faithful. There is a difference. One does and exist without the other, in more than financial ways.

Subject: RE: BS: Pope on pedophile priests
From: akenaton
Date: 04 Oct 09 - 05:54 AM

"Copping out" again Lox?

PERCENTAGES.....PERCENTAGES!

Subject: RE: BS: Pope on pedophile priests
From: Lox
Date: 03 Oct 09 - 06:34 PM

MtheGM,

I suspect that as with most of the good work doen by the church and in the churches name, your observation will go overlooked.

For every crime committed by a church representative, there are a thousand selfless acts.

They don't sell papers though.

Subject: RE: BS: Pope on pedophile priests
From: Ed T
Date: 03 Oct 09 - 03:31 PM

As the plot thickens:
http://thechronicleherald.ca/News

Subject: RE: BS: Pope on pedophile priests
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 03 Oct 09 - 02:28 PM

Nobody has responded to the question I asked a couple of days ago which seems very germane to all this — (01 0ct 0206). Does anyone else know the Chapel in LA Cathedral [some Angelinos must read this site, surely?]. Is that Chapel still there? Well-known? Much visited? Was there any response from the community when it opened?

Subject: RE: BS: Pope on pedophile priests
From: Stringsinger
Date: 03 Oct 09 - 01:01 PM

A life of celibacy makes no sense since it runs counter to human needs. Those who practice this doctrine are not living healthy lives. The priesthood is sometimes prescribed for those in a family that are homosexual. Their needs are thwarted institutionally and as a result, this could become behavior of abberation. The answer is simple. Allow heterosexual and homosexual priests to marry and have their sexual needs met.

Subject: RE: BS: Pope on pedophile priests
From: billhudson
Date: 02 Oct 09 - 01:25 PM

Speaking as a x seminarian (5 years,OFM Caps) I would have to agree with some that it starts at the top. I think the bishops and their lawyers have known about all this for years and they have been moving these people around.
That being said there were many priest and brothers who were a great influence on me and were good men. At the time some were WW2 vets who saw a lot of combat and had been through hell. So you could not throw the bull around (we did try).
It as also where I started to play guitar. Many at that time did and it was fun jamming with other guys singing tunes. It was not what people would think.
But getting back to the subject I think it is way too late for the pope saying he is sorry. Those pedophile priests (if in fact they are) have destroyed lives of many people for years to come and they should be held responsible.

Subject: RE: BS: Pope on pedophile priests
From: Stringsinger
Date: 02 Oct 09 - 12:58 PM

Authoritarianism and enabling of bad behavior produces child abuse.

Subject: RE: BS: Pope on pedophile priests
From: Lox
Date: 01 Oct 09 - 12:55 PM

"I understand that the celibacy rule has been attracting a very high persentage of homosexuals to the priesthood and that assaults on young boys are most common."

Ah yes I see ...

Homosexuals would of course seek out a life of celibacy ... that makes sense ...

... and then, being homosexuals they would therefore need to find release by preying on small children ...

... because homosexuals are perverts and paedophiles are perverts therefore homosexuals are paedophiles ...

Thanks Ake for clarifying that.


(oops - sorry if you feel victimized by my "fascist liberalism" ... grmmph ...)

Subject: RE: BS: Pope on pedophile priests
From: bankley
Date: 01 Oct 09 - 07:47 AM

I have a friend that drove taxi and regularly picked up Joe Ratzinger (before he became Benedict) for trips from Regensburg to Munich.. they used to discuss all kinds of things... on one trip the subject came around to monotheism versus polytheism. My buddy believes in many of the old Germanic dieties, so they didn't see eye to eye on this... The conversation got heated and the Ratz was ordered out of the cab. He was left standing by the side of the road out in the country. So I guess I can say I know someone that threw the Pope out of a taxi..
Joe made out okay, and has some fancy digs in Italy now....and probably will never have to hitchhike again...

Subject: RE: BS: Pope on pedophile priests
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 01 Oct 09 - 02:06 AM

I haven't read right thru this long thread which has just been refreshed; so if this has been mentioned before, apologies — but I suspect not.

Visiting friends in LA in Oct 2003, my late wife & I {not RC} visited the new Cathedral; where we were interested to find a Chapel dedicated to child victims of clerical sexual abuse. This seemed to us some attempt to make amends. Is anyone else on this thread aware of this Chapel? Has visited it? Entered it for purpose of prayer, perhaps? Nobody I have mentioned it to, in US or here in UK, has known about it. Is it still there?

Subject: RE: BS: Pope on pedophile priests
From: Ed T
Date: 30 Sep 09 - 08:51 PM

Could there be a nest of these fellows at higher levels? See today's news article from Canada below:


Ottawa police issue warrant for ex-N.S. bishop Lahey wanted on child pornography charges Wed. Sep 30 - 4:19 PM

An arrest warrant has been issued for a former Roman Catholic bishop from Nova Scotia charged with possession and importation of child pornography.

The Ottawa Police Service Internet child exploitation unit charged Raymond Lahey, 69, on Sept. 25, 10 days after he was pulled over at Macdonald-Cartier International Airport in Ottawa by Canada Border Services Agency officers.

Mr. Lahey, who recently helped broker a landmark $15-million settlement to a class-action sexual abuse lawsuit against the Diocese of Antigonish, was returning from the U.S. on Sept. 15 through the Ottawa airport when border officials pulled him aside for a secondary examination, according to a news release from Ottawa police.

Border services officers found images on his laptop computer "that were of concern", according to the release.

Officials seized his computer and other media devices. Mr. Lahey was released "pending further investigation", the release said.

Now, Ottawa police and border services officials are asking anyone with information about the investigation to call the Ottawa Police Service Internet Child Exploitation Unit at 1-613-236-1222, ext. 5640.

The bishop, named to the position in 2003, is a Newfoundlander who once served as a professor of theology at Memorial University in St. John's.

Mr. Lahey was credited with helping to broker the settlement to a lawsuit brought against the diocese by the brother of a man who had claimed he was sexually abused as a child.

Ronald Martin, whose brother wrote a suicide note in 2002 that led to charges of sex crimes against a priest from the diocese, filed a class-action lawsuit last year against the organization.

The settlement is aimed at compensating anyone who was allegedly and known to have been sexually assaulted by a priest of the Catholic Episcopal Corp. of Antigonish since Jan. 1, 1950. Last month, Mr. Lahey said the agreement was the first step in recognizing the alleged abuse of children as young as eight years old.

"I recognize that my resignation takes place at a time when the diocese is facing a variety of demanding challenges," he wrote in a letter dated Saturday and released on Sunday explaining his resignation.

"While I will no longer be with you on this journey, I am confident that your faith and compassion will continue to sustain you as they have always done . . . I have already left the diocese to take some much-needed time for personal renewal."
([e-mail])

WRITINGS OF FORMER BISHOP RAYMOND LAHEY
Bishop Lahey's resignation letter and biography
A letter to parents from the Roman Catholic bishops of Nova Scotia: Your Child and Sex Education (2004)
Letter to parishioners on same-sex marriage (2006)
Source: www.antigonishdiocese.com

Subject: RE: BS: Pope on pedophile priests
From: Ed T
Date: 30 Apr 08 - 03:56 PM

Makes sense Joe.
The most important part of a church is its foundation, not the steeple at the top.
I trust the Pope reads this thread for direction :)

Subject: RE: BS: Pope on pedophile priests
From: Joe Offer
Date: 30 Apr 08 - 03:25 PM

A lot of this would have worked a lot better if American bishops were pastors, not businessmen. They need to have businessmen working for them as administrators to keep things running and keep the bills paid, but the bishop should be primarily a pastor - serving people on a heart-level.

Trouble is, that's not the tradition in the American Catholic Church, where the best candidates for bishop were the "brick-and-mortar men" who made names for themselves collecting huge donations and erecting impressive buildings. I thought we had moved away from that after Vatican II, but then John Paul II selected a new crop of bureaucrats and businessmen as bishops. We now have a whole generation of yes-men bishops. I hope Benedict XVI will help change that climate a bit. We need more bishops like Oscar Romero of San Salvador and Joseph Cardinal Bernardin of Chicago. We had a good one in Sacramento, Francis Quinn, but he retired 15 years ago and was replaced by a businessman bishop.

-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS: Pope on pedophile priests
From: GUEST,MikeS
Date: 29 Apr 08 - 03:40 PM

"Fear is the root of all courage"
- Vivian Stanshall

Subject: RE: BS: Pope on pedophile priests
From: GUEST,Ed T (at another computer)
Date: 29 Apr 08 - 12:06 PM

"Through our sunless lanes creeps Poverty with her hungry eyes, and Sin with his sodden face follows close behind her. Misery wakes us in the morning and Shame sits with us at night." - Oscar Wilde

"It is safest to be moderately base -- to be flexible in shame, and to be always ready for what is generous, good and just, when anything is to be gained by virtue." - Sydney Smith

"To live a creative life, we must lose our fear of being wrong" - Joseph Chilton Pearce

"When a man has so far corrupted and prostituted the chastity of his mind as to subscribe his professional belief for to things he does not believe, he has prepared himself for the commision of every other crime." - Thomas Paine

"Religion and art spring from the same root and are close kin. Economics and art are strangers."

"What is the most important for democracy is not that great fortunes should not exist, but that great fortunes should not remain in the same hands." - Alexis de Tocqueville
- Willa Cather

There are two kinds of light--the glow that illuminates, and the glare that obscures."
- James Thurber

Subject: RE: BS: Pope on pedophile priests
From: GUEST,MikeS
Date: 29 Apr 08 - 12:06 AM

You misunderstand me Joe, I meant the responsibility for the financial compensation of sexual abuse victims. I can well see the advantages of the structure as you describe it, but I can equally see how it can be, and probably is, used less honourably. I believe that rank should always be accompanied by responsibility.

Subject: RE: BS: Pope on pedophile priests
From: GUEST,Joe Offer, at the (Catholic) Women's Center
Date: 28 Apr 08 - 09:37 PM

The idea of reponsibility on the local level looks wrong to you, Mike?

Maybe I misunderstand you, but I have to say I'm very glad that Catholic parishes are as autonomous as they are. I'm a voluntary member of the church, and I can't see myself being dictated to by Rome. I do appreciate the worldwide union the Catholic Church provides, especially the feeling of solidarity with third world countries - but I also treasure my autonomy. In a semi-autonomous parish, I can make a big difference - and I do. In a worldwide monolith, I'd be just another spoke in the wheel. No, thanks. That's not what I signed on for.

-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS: Pope on pedophile priests
From: Barry Finn
Date: 28 Apr 08 - 02:22 PM

The buck needs to stop somewhere!

Barry

Subject: RE: BS: Pope on pedophile priests
From: GUEST,MikeS
Date: 28 Apr 08 - 01:22 PM

Joe - I wasn't really advocating the demolition of buildings and destruction of artwork. One doesn't have to be a Catholic to appreciate and respect beauty, believe me. I'd be interested to see the Vatican's accounts though - are they ever made public? Or available to members of the Church?

The idea of responsibility at local level looks very wrong to me, albeit perhaps essential for the size of operation and its survival.

Thanks for taking the time to be so informative Joe, it really is appreciated, and you represent your Faith admirably. I'm just trying to make sense of the world, and human nature - nothing more than that.

Subject: RE: BS: Pope on pedophile priests
From: Joe Offer
Date: 28 Apr 08 - 12:57 AM

I dunno, Mike, St. Peter's Basilica is a gorgeous building, built over a number of centuries by the best Renaissance artists. The rest of the Vatican looks a bit run-down, and there is very little that one would call "sumptuous." I'm kinda glad they didn't tear down St. Peter's in an austerity move, or paint over the ceiling in the Sistine Chapel. St. Peter's is well-used, by the way.
St. Peter's is the only real church in the Vatican, although there is the Sistine and other chapels. The Sistine has that nice painting on the ceiling, but it's otherwise pretty austere. There are lots of beautiful churches in Rome - in general, they belong to the local parishes. Catholic dioceses do spend a lot of money maintaining museum-piece churches that are no longer needed, but who wants to tear them down or buy them? Most Catholics, even we liberals, are quite fond of those beautiful churches and the stories behind them. Seems like a better use of money than the Cathedrals of Sport that cities build for privately-owned athletic teams in the United States. Our local basketball team wants the city to help them build an arena to replace their 20-year-old building. How often are churches considered obsolete and torn down after 20 years?
-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS: Pope on pedophile priests
From: Joe Offer
Date: 28 Apr 08 - 12:51 AM

The "crisis" may be this:

In the 1970's, many people left the Catholic church because of the restrictions on birth control, and many priests left because of celibacy issues. Liberals were disillusioned that canges were not taking place fast enough, and conservative thought changes were happening too fast.

A lot of the child molesting that has surfaced recently, took place in the 1970's. Partial causes could be that many sexual taboos were being questioned, and that many priests were living alone instead of in rectories with three priests.

Interestingly, Ratzinger/Benedict's 1970 piece echoed what a number of liberals were saying at the time. I understand he took a turn to the right when his classroom at Tübingen was invaded by the Red Army Faction, and he was rightly terrified.

Somebody wondered why Rome hasn't paid part of the cost of the child molestation settlements. In general, functions of the Catholic Church are self-supporting, and each diocese is a separate corporation. The "local ordinary" (bishop of the diocese) is more-or-less independent - although he is sometimes overruled by Rome. Rome takes care of its own financial affairs, but it dependent on the dioceses for some support.

And, to a great extent, Rome considered this to be "an American problem," and church officials in Rome had no understanding of the problem whatsoever (and very little involvement).

Ed T, I think most of your conjectures about the attitude of parishioners are correct. For the most part, Catholic lay people have a very unrealistic view of the lives of priests. I can't agree with much of what you say about the thinking of "the church" on the matter of sexuality. Homosexual sex and sex with children is certainly not considered "less sinful" than sex with a woman. However, in many dioceses there is a strong homosexual culture among a certain small (but significant) faction of priests - in certain circles of priests, you'd think you were in the Castro District of San Francisco. Conduct is overtly sexual and flirtatious. "Straight" priests feel very uncomfortable in such circles, and can often seek friendship with parishioners instead of with classmates if this sexual culture is too strong. I would guess from the overtly sexual attitude of priests in these factions, that celibacy is not important to them. As I said above, there was a time in my sophomore year of college when this sexual atmosphere was very strong, and it felt unhealthy to me until a number of people were removed by psychological screening. While I was in the seminary, I did not know of any students being sexually active. Some did go on dates with women, but I never heard of male-male dating. I never, ever heard talk of anybody even thinking about having sex with children, or professors having sex with high school or college seminary students.

I checked the list of Wisconsin priests who had been removed for child molestation, and I think I knew five or six of them. None of them was deeply in the "homoerotic faction" I spoke of above. Most were what I could consider to be "pretty normal" when they were in college with me. I knew those five or six guys pretty well, and I cannot imagine any one of them having sex with a child. Of course, I don't know that I can imagine anyone having sex with a child.

We had a few seminary professors who did their best to make sure that we got good, solid sex education - one science professor was particularly good at that, as was my main moral theology professor. Maybe they should have told us about child molestation, but it wasn't an issue in the 1960's.

The Milwaukee Archdiocese, where I grew up, has had a reasonably good record with regards to child molesting priests, as has the Sacramento Diocese where I live now. Some incidents, but almost all were reported to law enforcement authorities and dealt with. This link (click) will lead you ot a lengthy report on the problems of Milwaukee - it isn't a pretty picture, but it does appear that the archdiocese tried to deal with the problem and that there were relatively few offenders among the 600 priests of the archdiocese. Rembert Weakland, who was Archbishop of Milwaukee after I moved away, apparently fell in love with some guy in the 1970's, and then the guy blackmailed him for half a million dollars in the late 1990's - but it doesn't even appear that the archbishop and the man had a sexual relationship. As far as I know, there were no sex problems in the Milwaukee Archdiocesan seminary that I attended. However, I learned recently that a number of high school seminarians in a religious-order seminary outside Milwaukee were molested by professors - several professors were accused (click). I wonder how that sort of thing affected priests who had gone through that seminary at the time.

-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS: Pope on pedophile priests
From: GUEST,MikeS
Date: 27 Apr 08 - 11:34 PM

Have you ever been to the Vatican? The wealth is obscene, particulary when you consider the living standards in some of the poorer Catholic countries - where of course people are encouraged to breed as fast as possible.

Subject: RE: BS: Pope on pedophile priests
From: GUEST,dianavan
Date: 27 Apr 08 - 11:16 PM

Maybe if the bishops would cut back on all the pomp, they wouldn't have to bleed the parishoners for compensation to the victims. They could also sell some of their property and cash in some of their other investments. They always seem to have money to stage huge ceremonies for the consumption of the masses.

I'm probably one of those Susan accuses of bashing religion (perhaps she's right) but I do not bash hope and faith. Its organized religion that invests in oil, the armament industry and corrupt pooliticians that worry me. As far as I'm concerned, the Roman Catholic church is a perversion of the original Catholic church. As soon as the decision to centralize the religion was made, the trouble began. Ask the Cathars.

If the foundation is weak, the structure will eventually crumble. As far as I'm concerned, the sooner, the better. Nothing good will arise until the Vatican is in ashes and the girly boys in fancy clothes are dead.

Subject: RE: BS: Pope on pedophile priests
From: GUEST,MikeS
Date: 27 Apr 08 - 09:39 PM

That seems a strange thing to say - any idea what the "today's crisis" to which he refers was?

Subject: RE: BS: Pope on pedophile priests
From: Ed T
Date: 27 Apr 08 - 09:17 PM

Thought this was interesting.

As to the current state of some RC churches, it seems that the current Pope predicted it many years ago:

English translation of an excerpt from Glaube und Zukunft (1970) in its 1971 Portuguese edition, titled Fe e Futuro (1971, pp. 76-78.

The book reproduces five lectures by Fr. Joseph Ratzinger given in 1969 at radios stations in Baviera and Hessen.


From today's crisis, a Church will emerge tomorrow that will have lost a great deal. She will be small and, to a large extent, will have to start from the beginning. She will no longer be able to fill many of the buildings created in her period of great splendor. Because of the smaller number of her followers, she will lose many of her privileges in society. Contrary to what has happened until now, she will present herself much more as a community of volunteers ....

"As a small community, she will demand much more from the initiative of each of her members and she will certainly also acknowledge new forms of ministry and will raise up to the priesthood proven Christians who have other jobs. In many smaller communities, respectively in social groups with some affinity, the normal care of souls will take place in this way ....

"There will be an interiorized Church, which neither takes advantage of its political mandate nor flirts with the left or the right. This will be achieved with effort because the process of crystallization and clarification will demand great exertion. It will make her poor and a Church of the little people .... All this will require time. The process will be slow and painful ....

"From this interiorized and simplified Church, a great force will pour out. The men of an [artificially] planned world will feel unspeakably isolated. When God will seem to have totally disappeared for them, they will experience a complete and horrible poverty. And then they will discover the small community of those who believe as something entirely new ....

"Her [the Church's] real crisis has hardly started. We still have to go through some great storms .... Certainly she will never again be the dominant force in society to the degree that she was until recently."

Subject: RE: BS: Pope on pedophile priests
From: GUEST,MikeS
Date: 27 Apr 08 - 09:04 PM

Fair comment - I think I perhaps mistakenly took your post more personally than it was intended, as I haven't knowingly responded to a post of your's. Please accept my apologies if I've caused you any offence.

Subject: RE: BS: Pope on pedophile priests
From: wysiwyg
Date: 27 Apr 08 - 08:48 PM

Susan - With the greatest respect, the subject/title of this thread kind of indicates its nature, and it's not uncommon for non-believers to have negative views on religion. That shouldn't encumber intelligent discussion between reasonable people though.

When people respond to a post of mine as if I am a RC and as if I am defending the RC Church, that doesn't indicate an effort at intelligient and reasonable discussion. It indicates people so mad that they post without reading posts.

The discussion has moved from the thread title to a serial attack on all things religious. That also indicates not an effort at reasonable and intelligent discussion, but an effort to persuade people to a negative viewpoint and/or vent old resentments.

In that type of atmosphere, an effort at reasonable discussion is inevitably met with continued negativity, because the goal of so many here is not discussion, but venting and persuasion. One has only to read this thread to see it.

~Susan

Subject: RE: BS: Pope on pedophile priests
From: GUEST,MikeS
Date: 27 Apr 08 - 07:08 PM

Joe - I'd guess that child abuse occurs to a similar degree wherever it can, and with varying levels of discoverability. It's all a matter of opportunity, surely?

Susan - With the greatest respect, the subject/title of this thread kind of indicates its nature, and it's not uncommon for non-believers to have negative views on religion. That shouldn't encumber intelligent discussion between reasonable people though.

Subject: RE: BS: Pope on pedophile priests
From: Ed T
Date: 27 Apr 08 - 06:46 PM

I have heard a few theories. So with a fear of being accused of being anti RC, anti priest, anti vatican or anti religeous (by the RC faithful) for even discussing the issues, here they are...for discussion purposes only:

The church:
1)Some of the senor staff, right up to the Vatican, in the church were involved in similar actions, and were fearful of losing their positions within the church.

2)Homosexual activity among priests was once internally rampant (and informally accepted) within the church. This led to a tolerant view towards these activities, even involving alter boys.

3)Having sex with a woman was considered a grave sin for a priest. Sex with the same sex was viewed less so, and tolerated as a release to avoid herterosexual frolics with parishiners.

4)Having sex with an alter boy is a throwback to years gone by, when it was accepted. Much like the Royal families and and their unicks, or suiters.

5)Once ordained, a priest was once believed to answer only to God. Thus, few within the church felt empowered to take agressive action.

6)A belief that priests were being agressively lured into these acts by permissive young homosexual boys.

7)Concern with a decline in the number of priests entering the cloth, and the impact of losing any.

8)And of course, fear of the impact of huge financial settlements.

9)An incorrect internal belief that pedophile priests could be rehibilitated through internal religeous practices. Which led to a failure to get professional outside physological advice on pedophilia and rehabilitation.

Parishiners:
1)Fear of challenging the power of the church.

2)Disblief that priests could do any wrong.

3)An incorrect belief that the Vatican and powers in the church were strategically dealing with the issues/situation.

4)Fear that the church would be embarassed by bad publicity for the RC church.

5)A focus on the faith, lives outside the church, and nothing else.

6)Disblief that children were being abused by such good people.

I suspect that, given the sensitivity of the issue, the Vatican is sharing very little information with anyone who is not on the tight inside, including the National Catholic Reporter or the America. After all, while church orienated, are still are media and in the public domain.

Subject: RE: BS: Pope on pedophile priests
From: Joe Offer
Date: 27 Apr 08 - 05:54 PM

I subscribe to two Catholic publications, The National Catholic Reporter (NCR), which is very left-of-center; and America, a Jesuit publication which I consider moderate but very honest. NCR has been very critical of the actions of the bishops, almost to the point of muckraking - but it hasn't come up with any real answer about the reason for the problem. America has had more balanced coverage and did devote an entire issue to the problem - but again, no answers. I can accept that child molestation is a problem that we don't understand and don't exactly know how to treat or respond to; but what about the apparent coverups and moving sex offender priests to new parishes instead of firing and prosecuting them?
I suspect a few bishops of malfeasance, but I think most of them are basically pretty decent people even if they are conservative. So, why did all this happen? I'm surprised that these two publications haven't come up with an answer - or at least an attempt at an answer. I really don't suspect either of these publications or any collusion with a coverup - after all, both of them have had their troubles with Rome and the bishops.

-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS: Pope on pedophile priests
From: wysiwyg
Date: 27 Apr 08 - 05:39 PM

As I think I said a couple of hundred posts ago, here we have just-another-religion-bashing thread.

~Susan

Subject: RE: BS: Pope on pedophile priests
From: GUEST,MikeS
Date: 27 Apr 08 - 04:52 PM

Some thoughts on religion, not all strictly relevant, but food for thought nonetheless:

Whatever we cannot easily understand we call God; this saves much wear and tear on the brain tissues. --Edward Abbey

All thinking men are atheists. --Ernest Hemingway

When I think of all the harm [the bible] has done, I despair of ever writing anything to equal it. --Oscar Wilde

Must then a Christ perish in torment in every age to save those that have no imagination? --George Bernard Shaw

Faith is when you believe in something that no one in their right mind would believe. --Archie Bunker

She was a good Christian woman with a large respect for religion, though she did not, of course, believe any of it was true. --Flannery O'Connor

If we believe absurdities, we shall commit atrocities. --Voltaire

It is a curious thing...that every creed promises a paradise which will be absolutely uninhabitable for anyone of civilized taste. -- Evelyn Waugh

Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction. --Blaise Pascal

Religion is what keeps the poor from murdering the rich. --Napoleon Bonaparte

In some awful, strange, paradoxical way, atheists tend to take religion more seriously than the practitioners. --Jonathan Miller

The religions of mankind must be classed among the mass-delusions of this kind. No one, needless to say, who shares a delusion ever recognizes it as such. --Sigmund Freud

I prayed for freedom twenty years but received no answer until I prayed with my legs. --Frederick Douglass

I'm frankly sick and tired of the political preachers across this country telling me as a citizen that if I want to be a moral person, I must believe in "A," "B," "C," and "D." Just who do they think they are? And from where do they presume to claim the right to dictate their moral beliefs to me? And I am even more angry as a legislator who must endure the threats of ever religious group who thinks it has some God-granted right to control my every roll call in the Senate. I am warning them today: I will fight them every step of the way if they try to dictate their moral convictions to all Americans in the name of "conservatism." --Barry Goldwater

The fact that a believer is happier than a skeptic is no more to the point than the fact that a drunken man is happier than a sober one. --George Bernard Shaw

You can't convince a believer of anything; for their belief is not based on evidence, it's based on a deep-seated need to believe. --Carl Sagan

When lip service to some mysterious deity permits bestiality on Wednesday and absolution on Sunday--cash me out. --Frank Sinatra

The churches have no confidence in each other. Why? Because they are acquainted with each other. --Robert Green Ingersoll

The more I study religions the more I am convinced that man never worshipped anything but himself. --Richard Francis Burton

If ignorance of nature gave birth to gods, knowledge of nature is made for their destruction. --Percy Bysshe Shelley

Just think of the tragedy of teaching children not to doubt. --Clarence Darrow

But who prays for Satan? Who, in eighteen centuries, has had the common humanity to pray for the one sinner that needed it most? --Mark Twain

Accustom a people to believe that priests, or any other class of men, can forgive sins, and you will have sins in abundance. --Thomas Paine

With soap, baptism is a good thing. --Robert Green Ingersoll

In order to exist just once in the world, it is necessary never again to exist. --Albert Camus

Certainty about the next life is simply incompatible with tolerance in this one. --Sam Harris

Properly read, the Bible is the most potent force for atheism ever conceived. --Isaac Asimov

All gods are dead except the god of war. --Eldredge Cleaver

Once miracles are admitted, every scientific explanation is out of the question. --Johannes Kepler

Religion provides the solace for the turmoil it creates. --Byron Danelius

Fanaticism consists in redoubling your effort when you have forgotten your aim. --George Santayana

Its hard to be religious when certain people are never incinerated by bolts of lightning. --Bill Watterson

If triangles made a god, they would give him three sides. --Montesquieu

We are punished by our sins, not for them. --Elbert Hubbard

Perhaps the whole root of our trouble, the human trouble, is that we will sacrifice all the beauty of our lives, will imprison ourselves in totems, taboos, crosses, blood sacrifices, steeples, mosques, races, armies, flags, nations, in order to deny the fact of death, which is the only fact we have. --James Baldwin

One is often told that it is a very wrong thing to attack religion, because religion makes men virtuous. So I am told; I have not noticed it. --Bertrand Russell

Let me alone. Good day. --Thomas Paine on his deathbed when asked by a clergyman if he would like to confess before Christ.

Subject: RE: BS: Pope on pedophile priests
From: Ed T
Date: 27 Apr 08 - 01:37 PM

Barry's good assessment reminds me of a Bob Dylan Song that I always found inspirational, Trust Yourself.


Trust yourself,
Trust yourself to do the things that only you know best
Trust yourself
Trust yourself to do what's right
and not be second-guessed
Don't trust me to show you beauty
When beauty may only turn to rust
If you need somebody you can trust, trust yourself.

Trust yourself
Trust yourself to know the way that
will prove true in the end
Trust yourself
Trust yourself to find the path
where there is no if and when


Don't trust me to show you the truth
When the truth may only be ashes and dust
If you want somebody you can trust, trust yourself.

Well, you're on your own, you always were
In a land of wolves and thieves
Don't put your hope in ungodly man
Or be a slave to what somebody else believes.

Trust yourself
And you won't be disappointed when
vain people let you down
Trust yourself
And look not for answers where no answers can be found
Don't trust me to show you love
When my love may be only lust
If you want somebody you can trust, trust yourself.

You, you got to trust yourself ..

Subject: RE: BS: Pope on pedophile priests
From: Barry Finn
Date: 27 Apr 08 - 01:20 PM

Training in a system that's deeeply flawed does't correct the problems inherent to the sysem.

The costs, like Ed T said above & I fully agree with, could've been kept lower & the distaste in the mouth could've been kept frrom such bitterness was caused by the refusal by the church to investage themselves & to aid athorities in their legal search for those documents that showed how the system shuffled around child predators. They actually fought to protect themselves, their system, their predators, their assets behind a sacred vail all at an additional cost to their victims. May they rot in hell!

Here in the Boston area wher ethe scandle 1st hit & was hit hardest the chruches closed & were/are sold off like a rummage sell. It was always a matter of what's best for the church, even the sale of the churches, never for the parishes that they let down or those that they betrayed. The donations dried up, they were/are faced with their own demons & they are not doing a good job at finding a way out. Partly IMHO because they keep looking to save themselves, they care more for their own future than those that followed them into the messs they're in.

Self-rightious & sanctimonious, they are still seeking to guide their flock with wolves in shepard's clothing. The old ways are gone the church has to find a new way in this new world.
I just yesterday came from my daughter's confirmation, presided by non other than Cardnial O'Mally. He's still talking about yesteryear when their were no divorces, no single parent households, no child victims & how folks had faith, how a woman's job was to marry & raise kids, how it's everyone job to follow the faith! EXCUSE ME!!!!!
What rubbish in todays world.

It's no wonder the chruch is in such dire straits with leaders that can't get out of their own way. Sure they do a buch of good but so do corporations like Wal-Mart & Exron when called to task. Doesn't give them the holy right to exist unchallenged. They need to test themselves, take chances, they need to listen to their flock & not the baying of old men that long for the good old days when they could run their sheep over hill & dale, fatten them, fleece them, spin their wool & eat them. They need to meet the expections of their followers, it's them that are important. THE CHURCH IS NOT MORE IMPORTANT THAN THE PEOPLE THEY SERVE. All you folkies should know that, "it's the song not the singer".

I don't care one way or the other if the catholic church, or any church for that matter survives. I can go on living as I see fit. I don't do harm to any, I help when I'm able & I follow my heart when my heart tells me ntoo. I'm not confused by a good deed & a wrong. I don't need a religon to do that & I don't need a church to guide me. I know what's right & what's wrong. I do question the church in that matter though. Hopefully they will resolve their many issues to the satisfaction of all, if not then their are always other s ready, willing & able to guide the faithfull.

They ought to show the faithfull how they can find faith within themselves without the need for an external source for standing on their own 2 feet.
I guess that's a bit counter productive though, isn't it. Wouldn't really pay off in the long run.

Barry

Subject: RE: BS: Pope on pedophile priests
From: wysiwyg
Date: 27 Apr 08 - 12:14 PM

More anti-RC venting. (I am not RC.)

My denomination does background checks and psych evals at several points in the process toward ordination. Also required is anti-sexual abuse training (as well as anti-racism training). These not only provide another screening opporuntiy, but specific training in how to spot potential abuse in the organizations in which they will work, and prevent it. Also how to handle it if it IS reported. ALL abuse.

Sunday School teachers, anyone who will work with children, must have state background check in hand and attend same training.

~S~

Subject: RE: BS: Pope on pedophile priests
From: Ed T
Date: 27 Apr 08 - 12:05 PM

"Must they also lead to a breakdown of systems that had been working well"

Maybe there is a variety of views and perspectives on this statement?

Where I live there have been three RC churches closed, and some others merged due to declining numbers attending church and fewer paying the bills. Some other demominations similar issues, but not as broad.

But, there are volunteer groups springing up to do the similar good works like feeding the poor etc. (other churches, charities and community groups).

Like with most court proceedings, lawyers always
get their hefty share.

Maybe if the RC church and parishes had not put these folks through the full legal hoops in the beginning, and set up independant avenues to reasonably address their concerns, more compensation could have gone directly to the folks violated on their watch? I suspect the lack of compassion pushed some to bitterness and maximized the amounts requested when lawyers got involved.

Pay me now, or pay me more later seems to ring a bell in this case?

Whether a RC parish was involved directly or not, the way these matters evolove is all parishes and members of the church (save the Vatican, that is) bear the cost... financial and non-financial.

Just my take on this aspect, from looking back on the happenings.

Subject: RE: BS: Pope on pedophile priests
From: wysiwyg
Date: 27 Apr 08 - 07:52 AM

Catholics have been badly hammered for questioning the amount of compensation, so "the sky's the limit" has become the rule. I agree with the need for compensation and for punsihment of offenders, but what's a rational way to deal with all this?

Well, the way our denomination has dealt with it has been to face rising premiums for the Church Insurance Company's liability coverage-- to the point where many small parishes doing a lot of good works in their communities (and have never had an abuse allegation) have had to close. The premiums strip them of funds for staff; as the congregations age it's less and less able to pick up the slack and do ministerial work formerly done by seminary-trained clergy.

If all compensation went to victimn recovery I wouldn't question it, but how much goes to lawyers? How much is punitive? Sure, the punitive damages lend supportive pressure to higher reporting, better church policies, etc., but must they also lead to a breakdown of systems that had been working well?

~Susan

Subject: RE: BS: Pope on pedophile priests
From: GUEST,MikeS
Date: 26 Apr 08 - 11:13 PM

A million dollars doesn't seem a very high price to pay. It shouldn't have to come from those who are outside the sphere of blame though. Is the Vatican still the world's richest state? I believe it has been so.

Subject: RE: BS: Pope on pedophile priests
From: Ed T
Date: 26 Apr 08 - 08:44 PM

Joe,

This is what seems puzzling.

As you say, in some cases priests identified as child molesters were given extensive, state-of-the-art treatment. However, there seems ample evidance that in many other cases many others were merely transferred to another parish, with no warning to the parishners, or peromoted to other positions of authority within the church.

Does anyone really have an explanation why, if this knowledge was present? Surely this was neither caring, or responsible, or anything to be proud of, regardless of ones faith.

I suspect that, added to the severity of the offense, by those in authority, in the awards, judges took into account the failure of the church to heed early signs of molestation, to report it to the authorities, or to take reasonable measures to stem the harm to children from inside.

The opportunity to stem the damage was before legal actions, not after the huge settlements you mention (I suspect mainly for fear of future legal actions).

I note in some cases that the settlements were not voluntary made by the church until after a few rigorously contested cases failed (in some cases, parishes and Rome tried to lay total blame on the offending priests).


Maybe if the church and parishes reached out earlier and more compassionately to those molested by their priests, thay would now have more funds for other charities?

I approiciate that parishes must dig deep. Would it not be reasonable for Rome to financially assist, since they were not innocent bystanders of this mess through the many decades.

BYW, the parishes were always legally obliged to report sexual impropriety to authorities, not just recently. One would have done this in other aspect of ones lives, why not when priests were involved?

Subject: RE: BS: Pope on pedophile priests
From: Joe Offer
Date: 26 Apr 08 - 05:18 PM

Ed, I'm sure that a number of the priests guilty of pedophilia, went through the same rigorous psychological screening I went through in the seminary. The screening helped sort out some really weird people, but it left behind a few who ended up as child molesters. Others were identified as child molesters and given extensive, state-of-the-art treatment. Both the screening and the treatment were thought to be sure-fire methods of eliminating the problem of child-molester priests, and both failed - at least to some extent. Still, I think it's at least somewhat reassuring that some Catholic authorites were trying to do something, way back in the 1960's.

During this discussion, I've begun to wonder another thing: the priest-molester scandal has raised the amount of compensation to about a million dollars per victim. In the past, victims in our Sacramento diocese were given $25,000 to $40,000 and offered counseling, and the offender priest where ordinarily suspended from the ministry and referred to the District Attorney for prosecution - and in our area, the system worked fairly well. Then the Diocese of Orange gave a million dollars per victim, and several of our already-compensated victims from Sacramento sued for more compensation and we ended up paying a million dollars for every complaint.
I certainly don't deny the seriousness of the offense, but no amount of money is adequate compensation and no amount of money can heal the harm done. In addition, the compensation is being paid for by parishioners, not by offenders. The compensation is being taken out of the funding for soup kitchens and youth programs and schools.

OK, so now we have a situation where parishes are supposed to report any suspected offense to law enforcement authorities - which I think is something that must be done. The trouble is, most offenses are going to coast a parish a million bucks. If I'm going to report something that's going to cost me a cool million, don't you think I'm going to want to at first assure myself that the report is true? So, we have created a situation where there's a heavy cost to a bystander for doing the right thing.

Catholics have been badly hammered for questioning the amount of compensation, so "the sky's the limit" has become the rule. I agree with the need for compensation and for punsihment of offenders, but what's a rational way to deal with all this?

As for anything good coming out of this scandal, I think it has mad a lot of Catholic laity, priests, and nuns think twice about trusting upper management.

-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS: Pope on pedophile priests
From: GUEST,MikeS
Date: 26 Apr 08 - 04:17 PM

Excellent :-)

Subject: RE: BS: Pope on pedophile priests
From: Ed T
Date: 26 Apr 08 - 04:08 PM

polish proverbs

A good appetite needs no sauce.

Innocence itself sometimes hath need of a mask.

Innocence plays in the backyard of ignorance.

Watch the faces of those who bow low.

Under capitalism man exploits man; under socialism the reverse is true.

a duck with three wings and a loaf of bread, is brother to the turkey.

only someone with nothing to be sorry about, smiles at the rear of an elephant.

when the wolf is chasing your sleigh, throw him a cookie but don't stop to bake a cake.

a truly wise man never plays leap frog with an unicorn.