BS: Pope on pedophile priests

Subject: RE: BS: Pope on pedophile priests
From: GUEST,MikeS
Date: 26 Apr 08 - 03:07 PM

We'd probably never have had all that bother if he'd been an agnostic... but then we wouldn't have had the baby-boom either..

Subject: RE: BS: Pope on pedophile priests
From: Ed T
Date: 26 Apr 08 - 02:59 PM

As for good and evil.

Hitler, while intelligent, was truly an evil man. However, can you see wisdom in his quotes, that have been used by others, for other reasons of course?



It is always more difficult to fight against faith than against knowledge.
Adolf Hitler

The great mass of people will more easily fall victim to a big lie than to a small one.
Adolf Hitler

Through clever and constant application of propaganda, people can be made to see paradise as hell, and also the other way round, to consider the most wretched sort of life as paradise.
Adolf Hitler

What good fortune for governments that the people do not think.
Adolf Hitler

The broad masses of a population are more amenable to the appeal of rhetoric than to any other force.
Adolf Hitler

As a Christian I have no duty to allow myself to be cheated, but I have the duty to be a fighter for truth and justice.
Adolf Hitler

By the skillful and sustained use of propaganda, one can make a people see even heaven as hell or an extremely wretched life as paradise.
Adolf Hitler

Who says I am not under the special protection of God?
Adolf Hitler

I believe today that my conduct is in accordance with the will of the Almighty Creator.
Adolf Hitler

Subject: RE: BS: Pope on pedophile priests
From: GUEST,MikeS
Date: 26 Apr 08 - 02:31 PM

Ed -

Exactly - and in some places they could be worse off in a material sense if they left and were in the minority, so they aren't likely to do that.

Subject: RE: BS: Pope on pedophile priests
From: Ed T
Date: 26 Apr 08 - 02:21 PM

I suspect that significant change only results from a major threat to the hierarchical structure, its power or resources ($).

Bad press coverage and the loss of a few million parishners and dollars is likely not really much of a threat to the top, (though possibly it makes some "uncomfortable enough" to make minor "smoke and mirror" adjustments to keep the faithful happy and make it seem proactively reactive).

I suspect that, due to the nature of religeon, the rank and file will though embarassed and bruised, remain spiritually and organizationally (not much choice there) comitted to the hierarchical center. After all, what choice would there be to impact change, other than leaving, that is?

Subject: RE: BS: Pope on pedophile priests
From: GUEST,MikeS
Date: 26 Apr 08 - 02:06 PM

"Could you, bycance, be suggesting that the priest-sex scandal eventiually resulted in some good, that being some change in the Roman Catholic church?"

I wasn't specifically suggesting that, but it's not impossible. Perhaps they'll lose a lot of credibility, perhaps they'll clean up their act. I'm biased though; I think powerful religions are inherently dangerous institutions.

Subject: RE: BS: Pope on pedophile priests
From: Peace
Date: 26 Apr 08 - 02:01 PM

"The trouble is, objectively defining good and evil is like trying to strike matches on a wet haddock. I forget which of the great philosophers said that."

Same guy wot said the thing about striking wet matches on a dry haddock.

Subject: RE: BS: Pope on pedophile priests
From: GUEST,MikeS
Date: 26 Apr 08 - 01:58 PM

The trouble is, objectively defining good and evil is like trying to strike matches on a wet haddock. I forget which of the great philosophers said that.

Subject: RE: BS: Pope on pedophile priests
From: Ed T
Date: 26 Apr 08 - 01:57 PM

MikeS
Could you, bycance, be suggesting that the priest-sex scandal eventiually resulted in some good, that being some change in the Roman Catholic church?

Subject: RE: BS: Pope on pedophile priests
From: Peace
Date: 26 Apr 08 - 01:50 PM

"If you're gonna shoot, shoot, don't talk."

(Eli Wallach in 'The Good, the Bad and the Ugly.'

Subject: RE: BS: Pope on pedophile priests
From: Ed T
Date: 26 Apr 08 - 01:36 PM

"The world is a dangerous place, not because of those who do evil, but because of those who look on and do nothing."         Albert Einstein

"There are a thousand hacking at the branches of evil to one who is striking at the root."         Henry Thoreau

"Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction."         Blaise Pascal


He who does not punish evil, commands it to be done. Leonardo da Vinci

If only it were all so simple! If only there were evil people somewhere committing evil deeds, an it were necessary only to separate them from the rest of us and destroy them. But the line dividing good and evil cuts through the heart of every human being. And who is willing to destroy a piece of his own heart?--Alexander Solzhenitsyn (The Gulag Archipelago)

If you know that a thing is unrighteous, then use all dispatch in putting an end to it--why wait till next year?--Menicius

There is no evil that does not offer inducements. Avarice promises money; luxury, a varied assortment of pleasure; ambition, a purple robe and applause. Vices tempt you by the rewards which they offer.--Seneca

When you use bad means to get good ends, you ruin the ends. You find evil in the end that you introduced into the means.--Joseph Jean Lanza del Vasto ("The Principle is to Unity of Life" in Peace is the Way)

Subject: RE: BS: Pope on pedophile priests
From: GUEST,MikeS
Date: 26 Apr 08 - 12:39 PM

That is what invariably happens in hierarchical structures, and more so in 'steep-sided' ones. Human nature will always transcend artificial ideals, and corruption would seem to be unavoidable. However, historically it's those structures and ideals (not necessarily religious ones) that have given rise to (probably) all human achievement, (or at least what most humans perceive as achievement, that being the only reference we have) as well as our worst atrocities. To go a step further (as a qualified lunatic) I would propose that 'good' and 'evil' are inseparable consequences of one another, however they are brought about.

Subject: RE: BS: Pope on pedophile priests
From: Ed T
Date: 26 Apr 08 - 11:19 AM

What seems amazing to me is how some of the priests in question could move from lower positions in the church to positions of additional power
after allegations were made. I suspect their influence in the hierarchical power structure contributed to the dismal lack of meaningful action throughouit the decades.

Joe mentioned some fairly responsible screening that he experienced. Seems odd that the same scrutiny did not extend to those identified by victims early in their career.

Blow is an example of a priest that even was promoted to a Vatican position, even after his acts were reported.

http://tribes.tribe.net/189be8fb-b353-4620-8fd7-812104a604b6/thread/6e64d0d0-b857-4bd9-b9b7-9d7f794b1374

Subject: RE: BS: Pope on pedophile priests
From: Joe Offer
Date: 25 Apr 08 - 11:50 PM

Well, the Catholic Church is very much a local operation, although outsiders and fundamentalist Catholics don't see it that way (bishops and popes may not see it that way, either). Yes, there is a hierarchical power structure that links the diocesan organizations with Rome - but the day-to-day operation of an ordinary parish is very much a function of the local community. If I feel my local parish is too conservative or too liberal, I go to another one that suits me better. In general, things in a parish are done by consensus. If the pastor gets dictatorial, the people drag their feet. It doesn't always work wonderfully - our pastor recently failed to renew the contract of a well-loved school principal, and he did it without consulting anyone until after the deed was done. Most of the "movers and shakers" in the parish would have advised against the firing. I'm friends with both the principal and the pastor, and I can see both sides of the issue. But the pastor lost a number of friends (and probably some contributions) in the matter.

From the standpoint of a local parish, functions of the pope and bishops are largely ceremonial. The bishop comes once a year to do confirmations, and otherwise he mostly leaves us alone. We get our insurance and construction financing through the diocese, and there are diocesan accountants and lawyers and personnel boards to handle business services for the parishes. Priests are assigned by the bishop, or by their religious order if they are religious (so that's a significant matter that is beyond local control). In our diocese, pastors are appointed for 12-year terms.

Finances are handled mostly on a local basis, although we do have an assessment of about 10 percent that we pay to the diocese. I don't know how much dioceses pay to Rome, or if Rome exists completely on endowments. The Vatican does have extensive investments. I understand that money comes mostly from the Pope's loss of the Papal States, when Italy was unified in the 1870's. Much of the fabled wealth of the Catholic Church is in the form of buildings that are expensive to maintain, and museum artifacts that are on display for the public. I think I like it that way - I'd hate to see the Pieta in the hands of a private collector, and I really enjoy visiting beautiful old churches (although I'd rather worship in a smaller, more intimate church where I can see and hear). From my observation over a lifetime of close association with Catholic institutions, I'd say that in general, the spending habits of the Catholic Church are not extravagant, and a lot of money is spent on assistance to the poor. I've done a lot of volunteer building maintenance work for Catholic institutions in my life, mostly because the institutions can't afford to pay for maintenance and keep letting things fall apart.

-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS: Pope on pedophile priests
From: GUEST,MikeS
Date: 25 Apr 08 - 08:21 PM

As far as I can see, from the outside of it, the Catholic Church is a business - a large and unscrupulous one. To a non-believer the spiritual wrapping paper is meaningless, and their aim, past and present, seems to be power and wealth via control and influence. By necessity though, the view from within is very different, obviously - I appreciate that, and am still trying to understand it.

Subject: RE: BS: Pope on pedophile priests
From: Ed T
Date: 25 Apr 08 - 06:16 PM

Another question, and this does not relate to theology:

Is the Catholic church a "church of the people", or is it totally controlled by a closed corporate structure?

If it were a private company, I could understand how a few at the top had absolute control. But, even a governing board of a cororation has to answer to in some way to a body of shareholders.

So, who does the church answer to (on Earth, that is), and what influence do lay members of the church have, if any? Are all matters determined by the priests, bishops, cardinals and Pope? Is there no opportunity to have any influence beyond this internal structure?
If so, could this not the essence of the problem? If not so, can anyone explain the structure.

Subject: RE: BS: Pope on pedophile priests
From: GUEST,MikeS
Date: 25 Apr 08 - 05:11 PM

It would seem that power corrupts, regardless of religion. Thinking about it though, I'm not altogether sure I'd want to live in a world where it didn't.

Subject: RE: BS: Pope on pedophile priests
From: Joe Offer
Date: 25 Apr 08 - 03:07 AM

You're right, Diana - the American bishops acted very much like the executives of Enron - for most of them, covering their butts was their main priority. This entire scandal is disheartening to all of us Catholics. I have read all I could find on the matter, trying to come to an understanding of what happened - and I'm still not satisfied. Three bishops that I admired - Rembert Weakland, Richard Sklba, and Roger Cardinal Mahoney - seem to have behaved less than admirably in this scandal. When Weakland retired in disgrace (click), my friend Sister Esther said sadly, "Joe, he was one of ours." He was one of the few liberals remaining among the American bishops, and we felt he had betrayed us.

Still, it's our church - it doesn't belong to those bishops. And the scandal has given rise to a steady barrage of attacks on our church from the outside. We were betrayed by our leaders and priests, and it was our Catholic children who were molested. And yet every Catholic has to shoulder the blame and the cost of this scandal.

Whether adhering to the doctrine of the Catholic Church is being "misguided" is another matter. Most of that doctrine hasn't changed since 300 AD, long before the church had the corporate power structure it later developed. As for the structure, I think it's a necessary evil - but it's not the structure (or the authority figures) that I believe in. It's my church, and I'm not ready to abandon it to the miscreants.

Oh, and this may surprise people. As a Catholic, I don't obey anybody, and I don't respect people in authority unless they earn my respect. I think my own thoughts - and my thoughts and words are not always in agreement with the Powers That Be. When I was employed by the Catholic Church to teach religion, I was a little more careful to stick to "official teaching," but I was able to do that without compromising my own values. As a paid (and currently unpaid) religion teacher, I did not (and do not) feel any particular restriction on my "academic freedom." I suppose I may be a secondary casualty of this scandal. I was laid off two years ago for budgetary reasons.

-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS: Pope on pedophile priests
From: GUEST,dianavan
Date: 25 Apr 08 - 02:45 AM

They were thinking they better cover their butts or they wouldn't be able to ...

preserve their finances, their way of life and their heirarchy of power.

Which is exactly why they instituted celibacy in the first place. They didn't want the offspring of priests to claim any inheritance from the church. Its all about financial security and the preservation of the Vatican. The Vatican has been corrupt for a very long time.

That is not to say all Catholics are corrupt. Misguided would be a more polite way of describing those who adhere to the doctrine of the Roman Catholic Church.

Subject: RE: BS: Pope on pedophile priests
From: Ed T
Date: 24 Apr 08 - 11:15 PM

It seems reasonable that the Roman Catholic church's actions were based on a hierarchy's attempts at self preservation.

But a fair question is a self preservation of what?

Preservation of the Gods work, God's directives and God's words...the core purpose for this church to exist? Likely not.

More likely is the preservation of an established organization, the church hierarchy, and "dyed in the wool" approaches? Preservation of vested posts and interests? Preservation of finances? Preservation of authority? Added to this, is likely elitism, smugness.

I submit it just as reasonable to speculate that actions resulted from a mere attempt to avoid any negative impact to persons in the responsibility chain, including those in positions of authority. Additionally also the allegiance to potentially guilty of offenses? Who knows how high in the organization structure this nasty stuff reached.

Logically, one would assume that self preservation would also factor the importance of maintaining a committed and faithful congregation.

While it may not be difficult to keep an older (traditionally more obedient) congregation, and those who put church allegiance and blind faith at the forefront. But, on the longer term, this group is shrinking, and not being replaced by youth in the developed Christian world. While the sex impropriety is only one factor, I submit it is an important one. Many ptential new recruits are free thinking, resourceful and knowledgeable.

So, what is puzzling to me is the lack of logic in determining a course in the preservation the long term interests of this church.

After weighing the cost of doing the right thing, (by surrendering those accused to authorities for a fair hearing, lets say the 3 to 5 % of priests),versus the spiritual, versus the cost to reputation and congregation by not taking this course, it seems like a no brainier. Added to this is the danger that not taking aggressive and careful action would likely contribute to even more offenses and added disgrace upon the church.

A good question is what in the world were they thinking? That no one was watching?

Subject: RE: BS: Pope on pedophile priests
From: GUEST,MikeS
Date: 24 Apr 08 - 10:47 PM

Thanks Joe, interesting and enlightening. Pardon the spelling in my last post, I was in a hurry.

Subject: RE: BS: Pope on pedophile priests
From: Joe Offer
Date: 24 Apr 08 - 07:09 PM

Mike, this Google search will lead you to plenty, including this speech JPII gave at Yad Vashem in 2000. I didn't always like John Paul II because I considered him too conservative, but the Yad Vashem speech is John Paul II at his best.

-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS: Pope on pedophile priests
From: GUEST,MikeS
Date: 24 Apr 08 - 06:52 PM

Joe - I didn't know that about JPII, I must admit. Can you point me at anything?

Yes, I'm being a bit simplistic I admit, and obviously I've no personal argument with you, I do hope that's crystal clear. I wouldn't pretend to know the solution to the child molesting problem, but I do think offenders from a position of trust should have harsher penalties imposed, and certainly be prevented at any cost from even having a chance do re-offend.

Incidentally, it's time someone pointed out that there is a difference between paedophilia and child abuse. They are not the same thing and are every bit as seperate as Catholicism and Nazism. Paedophiles are not necessarily child abusers and vice versa. I'm making no point here other than expressing irritation at the constant misuse of the word.

Subject: RE: BS: Pope on pedophile priests
From: Joe Offer
Date: 24 Apr 08 - 06:28 PM

Stll, Mike, you're putting some pretty heavy spin on things - or at least you're painting the Catholic Church as far more monolithic than it actually is. I heard talk a lot of talk about pedophilia in the 1970's, and Catholic bishops spent millions back then on treatment programs for pedophile and alcoholic priests - it's just that the programs didn't work. I've also heard Catholic scripture scholars discuss whether there is an anti-semitic tone to the Gospel of John. John Paul II gave more than one public apology fgor the participation of Catholics in the Holocaust.

And yes, you can make the "too little, too late" argument and you would be correct - but no apology and no reparation would ever be adequate for the evil done by the long history of anti-Semitism, or for the lives ruined by child molestation.

I'd like to think we've conquered anti-Semitism, but I think it has arisen again in recent years - partially (and wrongly) rationalized as a response to Israeli militarism. And the fact remains that nobody has come up with a way to end or even deal with pedophilia. It is a horrible problem, and we're just beginning to understand it.

-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS: Pope on pedophile priests
From: GUEST,MikeS
Date: 24 Apr 08 - 05:39 PM

I'm sorry if you found my posts misleading.

The first paragraph of my post 23 Apr 08 - 08:07 PM explains the denial I'm talking about.

"if the Church were capable of denying that Hitler's Catholic upbringing and education had anything to do with his anti-semitism and apparent religious fervour, they could hardly be trusted to come clean about the odd buggered choirboy unless they were absolutely forced."

(forgot my name)

Subject: RE: BS: Pope on pedophile priests
From: Joe Offer
Date: 24 Apr 08 - 05:22 PM

I think you ought to take another look at your posts, Mike. What's this "denial" you're talking about?

Since the second Vatican Council, the Catholic Church had done a pretty good job of admitting all of the ills in its history - the Spanish Inquisition, anti-Semitism, and pedophilia. But your posts make it look like Catholics deny Hitler was Catholic. I do agree, however, that there also were coverups of the pedophilia and other matters.

-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS: Pope on pedophile priests
From: GUEST,MikeS
Date: 24 Apr 08 - 05:14 PM

Joe, I never claimed there was a Catholic attempt to deny that Hitler was born and raised Catholic. I was talking about anti-semitism & I think you know that.

And for what it's worth, I don't see how you can possibly share any responsibility for the atrocities committed by either the Catholic Church or its members.

Subject: RE: BS: Pope on pedophile priests
From: Joe Offer
Date: 24 Apr 08 - 04:22 PM

Mike S. - It seems that I've always known that Hitler was raised Catholic. Your post is the first I've heard of any Catholic attempt to deny that Hitler was born and raised Catholic. I don't know if I learned of Hitler's Catholic roots in Catholic grade school, or in the Catholic seminary where I attended high school and college - but it must have been in one of the two places. Hitler was born in Austria, and Catholicism was the state religion. I was also taught that once one was baptized Catholic, one was always a Catholic - even excommunication does not constitute total removal from the Catholic Church, since Baptism and the other sacraments cannot be reversed. I'm sure some Catholics would deny Hitler's Catholic upbringing - but my Catholic education made no attempt at such denial. And since my education was in a seminary, that's a fairly official Catholic education.
Still, Hitler is the very antithesis of the Catholic faith that I was raised with. I was taught that the essence of the teachings of Christ was love of God and love of neighbor. That doesn't seem to jive with the essence of the teachings of Hitler, does it? It also doesn't seem to jive with pedophilia.

Dicky has a point when he says that all institutions are guilty and that covering up is par for the course. It seems to me that, no matter how noble its stated purpose, the primary function of an institution is self-preservation. Maybe "primary function" isn't quite accurate - but I think it is correct to say that every institution, just like every living creature, has a "primal urge" for self-preservation. That "primal urge" can at times be more powerful than any other force within an individual or institution. It taks a lot to overcome this urge for self-preservation and seek a higher purpose. I think that's what Jesus meant in John 15 by saying "No one had greater love than this, to lay down one's life for one's friends." I think it's harder for institutions to deny self-preservation than it is for individuals. I think it's safe to say that in general, institutions are corrupt - or at least they have an almost irresistable tendency to be corrupt.

Institutions, including churches, are run by executives. In the Catholic Church, those executives are the bishops and the Pope. Usually, executives tend to embody their institutions, including all the faults of the institutions - and that pesky self-preservation instinct. I don't know about the rest of you, but I have met very few executives I really liked or trusted. Their primary concern is always their institution. Not only that, executives tend to deify themselves and their institutions, and they fail to see their own shortcomings (claim infallibility?).

Considering what I think of institutions, you'd think I would want to throw out the lot of 'em, or at least not associate myself with any of them. I have a fairly negative view of the Catholic Church as an institution, so you'd think I ought to leave it if I had the slightest shred of integrity.

I think that would be a mistake. We need institutions, even if they ARE corrupt. They are necessary tools for getting things done - but we must remember that institutions are merely tools. Maybe it's not just executives who deify institutions - I think society as a whole tends to deify its institutions, and I think that's wrong. I also think that society tends to identify members with an institution, and that's also wrong. The Catholic Church has had a serious problem with child molesters, and that's deplorable. I'm a Catholic - but does that mean I'm a child molester? And to what extent am I responsible for the molestation that took place? Am I obligated to withdraw from the institution because other members have done deplorable things? Is Adolf Hitler my "compadre" because he and I were both raised Catholic?

Yes, I do think I have a share in the responsibility for the wrong done in the name of my Catholic Church. The bill for child molestation in my diocese comes out to a million dollars per parish, and I know that a sizeable chunk of my contribution is going to pay that bill. I know it's much harder to take pride in being a Catholic nowadays, than it used to be. But still, it's my church, and I'm not about to leave it to the child molesters and fundamentalists.

-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS: Pope on pedophile priests
From: Ed T
Date: 24 Apr 08 - 04:19 PM

A recent news:

http://www.canada.com/ottawacitizen/news/story.html?k=95150&id=6e708fe8-44c4-4bdf-baff-8772411ef33f




http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0MKY/is_7_28/ai_n6244813

http://www.reuters.com/article/topNews/idUSN0840059620080412


http://www.cbc.ca/fifth/goodfather/sexualabuse.html

Subject: RE: BS: Pope on pedophile priests
From: Ed T
Date: 24 Apr 08 - 03:29 PM

Information from a Canadian government site:

http://www.ps-sp.gc.ca/res/cor/sum/cprs200405_1-eng.aspx

Subject: RE: BS: Pope on pedophile priests
From: GUEST,Dicky Bow
Date: 24 Apr 08 - 10:04 AM

All istitutions are guilty and covering up the facts are par for the course, English public schools, all of the forces, it is human nature, and how many on this site are snow white.

Subject: RE: BS: Pope on pedophile priests
From: GUEST,Ed T
Date: 24 Apr 08 - 09:52 AM

Lats say since the 50's, it became known that teachers are abuseing their scholors (and some likely did). Would the reaction of the school officials and public have been the same as with "the Church"?

Would the teacher not have been promptly separated from the children by officials until the matter was cleared up? What would we say if school officials merely transferred them to another school? Or, if schools failed to adsress cases of child sexual abuse for may years? Would citizens and the media not clamour for action?

Why lower expectations for the Church by authorities and otherwise caring people?

Recentlty in Texas, the state moved decisively to protect children suspected of being abused by a religeous order. Does this mean society has learned something, is it an isolated case, or is there a double standard in play?

Subject: RE: BS: Pope on pedophile priests
From: Thompson
Date: 24 Apr 08 - 05:37 AM

I'm astonished by the way the Catholic Church - bishops, priests, cardinals, pope - keep lecturing others about their behaviour, when they have themselves assisted the tormentors and rapists of children, moved them from parish to parish and orphanage to orphanage, and covered up their actions.

And yes, the Vatican was at the centre of these cover-ups.

In Ireland, the very wealthy church bullied the government into agreeing to pay for its abuses. So the taxpayers of Ireland have to pay for these rich rapists - *and* listen to them preach at others!

Their arrogance and immorality is unconscianable.

Subject: RE: BS: Pope on pedophile priests
From: GUEST,Dicky Bow
Date: 24 Apr 08 - 05:17 AM

I agree that pedophile priests should be hounded out, but are they the only institution guilty of this despicable act?.
There is an ongoing investigation in one of the British Channell Islands involving both pedophilea and murder, and was there not a Scottish Island also implicated for the same crime a few years ago, all insitutions both religious and chartiable have been guilty of this.

Subject: RE: BS: Pope on pedophile priests
From: akenaton
Date: 24 Apr 08 - 03:17 AM

Just one little extract from Ed's study.
"90% of child abuse by Catholic priests involves the abuse of boys"
As another study says that 70% of sexual abuse of boys is never reported to even family or friends, I will make no further comment other than to echo another posters phrase.

"None so blind as those who do not wish to see".....Ake

Subject: RE: BS: Pope on pedophile priests
From: GUEST,MikeS
Date: 23 Apr 08 - 11:20 PM

Sadly, some people will see disrespect whether or not it's there..

Subject: RE: BS: Pope on pedophile priests
From: GUEST,Ed T
Date: 23 Apr 08 - 10:57 PM

Someone submitted the Pope Soap On A Rope ordering site a while back.
It seems that it is no longer available. So, act like scrooge with what you have left As they say on the order site: " Just scrub away with the sacred suds and you'll soon be gleaming with goodness and ready for another day of sinning".

But, they still have supplies of the Penguin Shower Radio:)


http://www.otherlandtoys.co.uk/product1128/product_info.html?prod=1128

Subject: RE: BS: Pope on pedophile priests
From: GUEST,Ed T
Date: 23 Apr 08 - 10:45 PM

First, I respect people of faith, Catholic and other religions.

While I have read of immense historic wrongs committed under the name of religion, I have seen in my life much good done by the many followers. With a few minor exceptions, faith is a source of inspiration, promise, and peace to many persons and societies worldwide. I would not wish this deminished for any follower.

I was a once a Catholic, but many years ago switched to another Christian faith, in real disgust with the hierarchy of this church.., the uncaring attitude, and inaction in dealing with a serious rot from inside it's ranks. Specifically, the sexual abuse of children for many generations. I could not sit inside a structure, or follow leaders who supported such by its knowing inaction.

I don't know why some, (possibly many), priests abuse children, mainly young boys. But, to me it is not the issue. The issue is the uncaring and unchristian actions by the governance of this church by failing to deal promptly, decisively, and responsibly with these persons and crimes. And, also the failure to show genuine (and yes, Christian) compassion and support for the unfortunate victims. Many victims have much internal strife and pain (I know a few of them, and have heard directly of their pain).

Too little, too late sums up my views on much of the recent initiatives by the Catholic church hierarchy. I submit that to protect those from inside, it has strayed far from Christian values and has lost the respect and support of many in the process. I am included in this group. But, this should not be mistaken as disrespect for the followers of the Roman Catholic religion.

Subject: RE: BS: Pope on pedophile priests
From: GUEST,MikeS
Date: 23 Apr 08 - 09:42 PM

Thanks Ed; utterly sickening, and not surprising.

Subject: RE: BS: Pope on pedophile priests
From: GUEST,Ed T
Date: 23 Apr 08 - 09:29 PM

An interesting study from 1990 and some startling past quotes from some Bishops and other folks in power positions on the topic about Molesting Priests:


http://ffrf.org/timely/epidstudy.php

Sorry, forgot to add my name, Ed T, to the last post.

Subject: RE: BS: Pope on pedophile priests
From: GUEST,MikeS
Date: 23 Apr 08 - 08:53 PM

Sorry, that should read 'anything to do with his anti-semitism'..

Subject: RE: BS: Pope on pedophile priests
From: GUEST,MikeS
Date: 23 Apr 08 - 08:07 PM

You're obviously an educated man with a good heart Joe, thanks for a sensible and sensitive reply. My original comment concerning Hitler was not meant to imply a causal relationship, but to illustrate that if the Church were capable of denying that Hitler's Catholic upbringing and education had nothing to do with his anti-semitism and apparent religious fervour, they could hardly be trusted to come clean about the odd buggered choirboy unless they were absolutely forced. European anti-semitism was already rife well before Hitler exploited it, and it originated in Christianity, not Hitler. It is (merely) my opinion that Hitler was carrying on where Torquemada left off - ridding society of (mostly) Jews on behalf of "God". I think the connection is well beyond the realms of coincidence, albeit that my opinion may be from beyond the borders of insanity.

An interesting observation on Catholic education though: I've a large proportion of friends, a sister, and a partner who aren't stupid, and went to various Catholic schools - so far none of them knew Hitler was a Catholic, and none of them had the faintest idea who Torquemada was. Make what you will of that.

Technically I'm not actually Jewish by the way, but I do have a bit of Polish background that I feel very strongly about.

Subject: RE: BS: Pope on pedophile priests
From: frogprince
Date: 23 Apr 08 - 07:31 PM

Anyone motivated enough to do a little research?
Did Jeffrey Dahmler have any church affiliation?
Ted Bundy?
John Wayne Gacey?
We may be missing any number of denominations that should be identified as bastions of pure evil on the basis of one person who was affiliated with them, or was seen attending one of their services on some occasion.

Subject: RE: BS: Pope on pedophile priests
From: Joe Offer
Date: 23 Apr 08 - 07:05 PM

I certainly don't mind listening to rational and documented criticism of the Catholic Church, but it's hard to carry on any sort of discussion with somebody who just keeps asserting information without documentation. It's nice that you finally came through with at least a quote, Mike. That makes at least a start. This page gives a long list of quotes from Hitler that seem favorable to Christianity, so I guess it's fair to say he claimed to be a Catholic. Still, Mike, your implication was that Hitler did what he did because he was Catholic; and that one cannot expect justice from the Catholic Church because it once had a member named Adolf Hitler. You still have failed to show a causal relationship, a logical connection. "Guilt by association" is not generally considered to be a valid logical argument.

I haven't seen evidence that would indicate that the Catholic Church actively promoted Fascism and National Socialism to any great extent, although there were ultra-nationalist Catholic groups in Croatia and other places that certainly did. The Catholic policy at the time was to attempt to coexist with national governments, and that included carrying on diplomatic relations with dictators - and made for the Catholic Church having some strange bedfellows at times. I don't buy claims that Pope Pius XII supported the Nazis - but he certainly was a disappointment in his failure to oppose them strongly. He was a career diplomat, and it appeared he tried to deal with the Nazis and Fascists with diplomacy. The world needed a hero at the time, and it's clear that Pius XII was no hero. That's why I oppose the proposal that Pius XII be named a saint. I don't think he was a bad man - but the Church and the world needed more than mediocrity at the time.

There is one thing I can say in defense of the Catholic Church and Pius XII with regard to its relationship with Hitler - In 1937, Pope Pius XI published an encyclical letter, Mit brennender Sorge (with burning sorrow), addressed to the German people. A letter may not sound like much, but it's about the most powerful weapon Popes have nowadays. This letter, which was apparently written by Vatican Secretary of Eugenio Pachelli (later Pius XII) (click), expressed strong opposition to Hitler and his policies. In 1937, the United States had a far more cordial relationship with Hitler than the Vatican had, so I think it's a big stretch to accuse the Catholic Church of supporting Hitler or of responsibility for the Holocaust. Certainly, the Catholic Church and all of Europe and America should have done more to oppose Hitler and the Holcaust - but failure to oppose is quite different from active support.

John Paul II is not one of my favorite popes, but I have to admire his courage in opposing the Marcos regime in the Philippines and later the Communists of Eastern Europe. If Pius XII had shown that sort of moral strength, the Holocaust might never have happened. Maybe John Paul learned his lesson in World War II.

I consider pacifism to be part of my Catholic faith, although I acknowledge that most Catholics are not pacifists. I have to say, though, that Hitler and the Holocaust shake my faith in pacifism. The British and the Catholics tried appeasement, and failed miserably. What finally defeated the Nazis, was warfare - much as I hate to admit that. I suppose that was the essential failure of Pope Pius XII: for all intents and purposes, he was a pacifist - and his pacifist approach failed to stop the Nazis and the Holocaust. All of us who claim to be pacifists, need to examine that failure and learn from it. John Paul II apparently did. So did Gandhi, and Nelson Mandela, and Martin Luther King.

Windsor Knot, Islam has recently replaced Catholicism as the largest faith, and I'd venture a guess that Buddism may well garner more respect than any other. I've gone to Mass at least once a week all my life (and I'm at church half a dozen times a week), but I have more respect for the Dalai Lama than I have had for any pope since John XXIII.

-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS: Pope on pedophile priests
From: GUEST,Ed T
Date: 23 Apr 08 - 07:05 PM

PoppaGator said "Hitler's government established "state churches" by co-opting the leadership of various German churches" Is that not what they did in England much earlier when the Anglican church was set up:)

Subject: RE: BS: Pope on pedophile priests
From: GUEST,MikeS
Date: 23 Apr 08 - 04:28 PM

I think Buddhism might scupper that claim Windsor, but what do I know? I'm a lunatic & nothing but a perfidious Jew.

Subject: RE: BS: Pope on pedophile priests
From: GUEST,Windsor Knot
Date: 23 Apr 08 - 04:42 AM

Speak until your blue in the face, nothing will change the fact the catholic church is the largest and most respected faith on earth.

Accept it.

Subject: RE: BS: Pope on pedophile priests
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 23 Apr 08 - 04:11 AM

MikeS, I hold no brief for the Catholic Church, but what you are suggesting is borderline insane. In fact you are over the border with your passport stamped.

The Popes have stood for some pretty mad things in their various times, still do - that much must be faced. However first and foremost - they do stand for the teachings of Christ in the New Testament.

These latter cannot be squared with what Adolf Hitler did. Chalk and Cheese.

Hitler said many things, most of his pronouncements were dishonest and cynical. He was more than a little crazy and his agenda shifted. But The Sermon on the Mount and its injunctions - even at his most calculating - were never really going to be for him.

Hitler had a constituency of what must have been decent folk at one time. I suspect he had to lull as many of them as he could, those that he couldn't actually corrupt. I suspect that lies at the heart of his 1941 pronouncement.

Also Catholic means Universal in another less frequently used sense. He was cynical and intelligent enough to be ambiguous. He had plans for world domination.

Subject: RE: BS: Pope on pedophile priests
From: GUEST,MikeS
Date: 23 Apr 08 - 12:11 AM

"I am now as before a Catholic and will always remain so."
Hitler, 1941.

Subject: RE: BS: Pope on pedophile priests
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 22 Apr 08 - 11:44 PM

Not singling out one comment particularly, but above someone said:

Hitler's government established "state churches" by co-opting the leadership of various German churches, definitely including Protestant denominations ...

In fact, the Weimar Constitution that was in effect when Hitler and his party took office sanctioned a "State Religion" and it was Catholic before Hitler arrived on the scene. Some protestant churches were "tolerated," but had no widespread (public) acceptance and little political influence.

The FIRST INERNATIONAL TREATY that the new Nazi government was able to get signed was with THE VATICAN.

According to some, the primary reason for this treaty was that about the only organized objections against the new government were being voiced by a few liberal Catholic priests and congregations.

With the treaty recognizing the (conservative) Vatican version of catholicism, and making it the only form of Catholic worship allowed in the "official state religion," the resistance was effectively - and by some accounts brutally - crushed. Giving the Vatican full authority over the German church allowed the "church" to purge any priests not following the "official religion" which - almost incidentally from the standpoint of the church - eliminated organized opposition to the new government's "domestic policies."

In other words, Hitler "played them like a bull fiddle" and the Vatican was willingly (or stupidly?) complicit.

(One of the problems with extreme conservatism is that it's so easy, once one knows their mantras.)

Relations between the Nazi regime and Rome were sufficiently cordial that the Vatican is the only foreign power to send an official representative to Hitler's annual birthday party/celebration for the next six years according to documents and photos at several sites.

Given the emotions and "self-serving" histories extant, it's nearly impossible to be absolutely sure than any one - or few - sources are more accurate, or offer "deeper meaning," than any of the others, but the documentation on the above appears credible - to me. In another hundred years maybe I'll have a better understanding of it all.

Hitler was no more a "catholic" than [[CENSORED] is a "born again" christian.

John

Subject: RE: BS: Pope on pedophile priests
From: heric
Date: 22 Apr 08 - 10:44 PM

WindsorNut, really. If you want us to believe that the Catholic hierarchy are the real victims here - victims of bigotry while just doing what everyone else does - you really ought to bring something to back up such an extraordinary assertion.