BS: A Puzzle For Historians

Subject: BS: A Puzzle For Historians
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 30 Apr 08 - 01:53 AM

Historians push for new 'Mein Kampf'

Some want Hitler's manifesto to be republished before copyright lapses

The Associated Press
updated 2:02 p.m. CT, Tues., April. 29, 2008

BERLIN - German historians want Adolf Hitler's infamous manifesto, "Mein Kampf," to be republished in the country before the copyright lapses in 2015.

Though the book is widely available in the English-speaking world, its publication has been banned in Germany since World War II and its resale is tightly regulated.

But German copyright law dictates that an author's work enters the public domain 70 years after his or her death, and that deadline is fast approaching. Hitler killed himself in his Berlin bunker on April 30, 1945.

Before that anniversary, historians want Bavaria — which controls the copyright because Hitler's last official address was in Munich — to authorize an annotated version of "Mein Kampf." They say a thorough, academic presentation that places Hitler's work in historical context would be the best defense against radical right-wing groups and neo-Nazis who might want to use the book to advance racist agendas once the copyright expires and anyone is free to publish it.

"The legends and myths connected with this book should be destroyed once and for all," said Hans-Christian Taeubrich, director of the Documentation Center at the Nazi Party Rally Grounds in Nuremberg, the Bavarian city where Hitler staged some of his most monstrous gatherings.

Taeubrich envisions a joint project between his center, prominent historians and the Institute for Contemporary History in Munich. The institute's director, Horst Moeller, has also called for "Mein Kampf" to be annotated and republished.

The work should begin soon, says Taeubrich, because it might take up to three years to illuminate all the sources Hitler used in his rambling and highly subjective book.

"This work has not been done before," said Taeubrich. "Everyone knows this book and what it symbolizes, but no one has recorded where his inspiration came from."

Bavarian lawmakers have routinely turned down calls to reprint the book for fear that it might be misused by right-wing extremists and out of respect for the victims of the Holocaust.

A representative of Bavaria's Finance Ministry, which manages the copyright, told a German radio station last week that the decision not to publish the book was "commonly accepted and highly valued, especially by the Jewish community, domestically and abroad." The ministry did not immediately respond to calls Tuesday seeking comment on Taeubrich's statements.

The Central Council of Jews in Germany had previously supported Bavaria's efforts to suppress the book, but this week the council's director, Stephan Kramer, told The Associated Press that he now endorses work on a new academic edition, a move he described as a "deep change of position."

... ...
/quote

There are obviously some difficulties in doing this productively, and some questions as to whether it can be certain to have the "value" claimed in the article.

Having read as much as I could stomach of it (in English translation, of course) I'm not interested in another attempt. A good annotator might make it more interesting than the original, but I probably wouldn't buy the book regardless.

If an authoritative annotation isn't done soon, there may be nobody left (and fewer records accessible) to permit doing it later(?). But is it worth doing?

And if it's done, will anyone actually read the footnotes?

Also at the link: "The book has sold well in translation in the Arab world and in Turkey, where it became a surprise best-seller in 2005."

(I'm pretty sure GWB has had a copy, but DC probably works directly from Hermann's unpublished notes. ... (?))

John

Subject: RE: BS: A Puzzle For Historians
From: Paul Burke
Date: 30 Apr 08 - 03:11 AM

It's widely published in English, including a Penguin paperback version. There seems to be no greater (and no less) problem with the extreme right here in the UK, so I suppose the effect must be pretty neutral.

There is no shortage of copies available in German, and the people who were involved with the writing of MK are all dead, so the argument of academic necessity strikes me as silly. As for the study of it, the police hold child porn, labs have the smallpox virus, and there is more plutonium at Sellafield than they know what to do with, so it's not going to destroy the planet.

Study as a document- including its sources, influences and precedents- is a necessary historical project. You can't deny its influence, it killed my Uncle Bernard for a start. Whether the study of it counts as history yet is another matter- in my opinion history is something done when the issues can be calmly looked at, when the bad no longer matters much. For example, slavery in ancient Rome was often brutal and cruel, but there's "nowt no one can do about it now", whereas we are still living with the consequences of US slavery (see Obama threads passim ad nauseam).

Subject: RE: BS: A Puzzle For Historians
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 30 Apr 08 - 06:43 AM

But it's such a tedious book to read!

(and yes I have read it....)

I can understand why it has not been reprinted and why its distribution in Germany is discouraged but I'm slightly perplexed - banning something has only ever made that thing more desirable. If someone in Germany really wants to read a copy of 'Mein Kampf' then they will find a copy somewhere - probably through Amazon, I suspect any restrictions won't apply to them - and they will read it. If they want to find the references that caused millions of deaths then they will find them, because that is what they are looking for. It's like anti-Gay campaigners picking certain texts out of the Bible to refute homosexuality, or the Da Vinci Code theories - if all you are looking for are the things you want, then you'll find them.

Hitler tried to ban and burn books that did not meet his approval. We should not follow that path.

LTS

Subject: RE: BS: A Puzzle For Historians
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 30 Apr 08 - 07:03 AM

The fairly brief article was unclear about the copyright aspects of republishing. It would seem that any added annotations would be subject to a new copyright; but any of the original text copied from the new book would still be public domain.

Or am I missing something in German copyright law?

If the purpose of the "annotated version" is to further some "agenda" to prove a point, it might be as well to just leave it alone. If it actually adds to more general understanding of the era in which the book originated, and even perhaps of the author, it probably would be worth doing.

Or am I seeing (possible) conspiracies where I shouldn't?

John

Subject: RE: BS: A Puzzle For Historians
From: Bonnie Shaljean
Date: 30 Apr 08 - 07:37 AM

I think the non-renewable 70-years-after-the-author's-death copyright law is Europe-wide and not just a German thing. As far as I understand it, a work goes into the public domain when this time period has lapsed, and that's it: it's then available to all. Anyone who likes to can publish it, but they will not be allowed to claim copyright on the text. Certainly that's the case in the UK and Ireland (or so I've been advised by PRS/MCPS).

I don't know whether you're seeing conspiracy theories or not, but if you are, then so am I. I can't think of any reason that I trust why someone should want to enhance, annotate or otherwise add to Hitler's book, which was written at a very specific time & place, and gives a clear message, bad as the writing is. Augmented material, if it's new, probably would be subject to copyright - though whoever wrote/published it could still not claim exclusive right of copy over the original work.

But I don't really like the smell of tampering with Mein Kampf after the fact. Why does anyone want to? It just sounds like opening a door to revisionism; or if they are "improving" the book without changing or distorting any facts - i.e. making Hitler more readable or more sympathetic - that's hardly better. Let the words he wrote stand as he wrote them, so they can be seen for what they are, without (and I can only regard it as this) cosmetics. Or worse.

Why don't these people just write their own separate book? Attaching it to MK strikes me - almost - as some form of force-feeding, or making sure people don't miss whatever it is they have to say. Hitler was the most powerful man in his country at that time: if he'd wanted his book changed he could have easily done it or ordered Goebbels to (who would probably have jumped at the chance).

Somebody go get Richard Bridge to set us all straight on what the laws actually are, in case I've missed or muddied something.

Subject: RE: BS: A Puzzle For Historians
From: artbrooks
Date: 30 Apr 08 - 07:53 AM

For a historian, Mein Kampf is a primary source for the events leading up to the Nazi takeover of Germany and subsequent events. A critical examination of the text and the author's inspirations is certainly appropriate, but unless there is something hidden in European copyright law that I'm unaware of, or there are witnesses that are about to die, I don't see any real necessity to do it before the copyright expires. Doing an annotated copy of Mein Kampf no more makes the core text protected from subsequent emendation and interpretation than does an annotated copy of the Bible (much as the comparison makes me gag).

Subject: RE: BS: A Puzzle For Historians
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 30 Apr 08 - 08:16 AM

Life + 70. Berne Convention. Been that way since early 70s before Berne so required.

Since the new words would be observably separate they would enjoy a separate copyright and it would not be a joint work. They would not in any way protect the old work.

I think the timing point (and I think it is a good point) is that if the annotated version is done NOW no-one else can do it (at least until 31st December 2015) and if it is thoroughly done now the market for looney-tunes annotated versions will ahve been pre-empted.

Subject: RE: BS: A Puzzle For Historians
From: Grab
Date: 30 Apr 08 - 08:20 AM

Not entirely surprising about its sales in the Arab/Muslim world, given that many of them share AH's views on Jews. Of course, they presumably don't share his views on blue-eyed blond-haired white boys being the rightful rulers of the world, but hey ho.

The restriction needs to be put into historical context, since it dates back to shortly after WW2. The aim of restricting access to this material in Germany was a way for the German state to give some kind of proof to the world that they were turning their back on the Nazizeit and stopping it ever happening again. Like Hirohito renouncing his divinity as emperor of Japan, it was a way to draw a line between the state that initiated WW2 and the Holocaust, and the state that followed the war.

It hasn't stopped racism against immigrants, or the rise of racist groups (in the same way as the BNP in the UK), but Germany isn't unique in having violent bigots amongst its citizens. Since the war is long over, it might be OK now for Germany to withdraw the restriction.

Bonnie, I think the point is to illustrate *why* AH wrote what he did. Remember that without the Treaty of Versailles, this probably wouldn't have happened - the rest of the world got a bad enough recession anyway, but the Treaty of Versailles basically screwed Germany beyond repair. So like the American constitutional right to bear arms, it should be put in the context of why it was originally written. And also it could use the extra interpretation to ensure that phrases can't easily be taken in isolation to serve an agenda. The rest of the world has these annotated versions, the same way we have annotated versions of the Bible, the Koran, the Torah and Das Kapital, all of which are currently being used as justification for bigotry and violence against others (although thankfully Das Kapital is now not such an issue).

Graham.

Subject: RE: BS: A Puzzle For Historians
From: Jack Campin
Date: 30 Apr 08 - 08:21 AM

It has been in print in Turkey for decades, selling in large numbers and with considerable influence. It was used by the fascist MHP (Nationalist Action Party) in the 1970s - their death squads were used ny the NATO-backed military to attack the left in the years leading up to the military coup of 1980. They're one of the few parties never to have been banned in the years intervening, and are still very active. (I was offered a copy of the Turkish edition as a present by an MHP sympathizer in 1981). So it's in use there in exactly the way Hitler intended it to be.

But in Turkey other historical books about the Nazi era are not that widely available - you get nothing like the huge displays of WW2 military porn you find in the UK, for example. A properly annotated, affordable edition that set the thing in its historical context might have had a constructive role to play, simply by teaching about a period which is otherwise largely forgotten. (And the MHP's thugs would probably have tortured a few booksellers to death for displaying it).

The text is easy enough to find on the web. A Wikipedia-style annotation of it would be quicker to do than a print edition, could be made available in multiple languages more easily, and might have more effect. The Nazis hand *their* versions out for free.

Subject: RE: BS: A Puzzle For Historians
From: Rapparee
Date: 30 Apr 08 - 08:56 AM

I see no reason NOT to annotate it. It was (unfortunately) an influential book, a best-seller at the time even in the US. We later found that the old translation was, ah, edited, and an edition truer to the original was published back in the 1970s (I think it was).

But the annotated edition would have to be published in the original, preferably from the original manuscripts, if it were to have any scholarly value. Translations from the original language, including any deviations from the "standard" meaning of words, would have to be included in the annotations of the translations.

And it would have to be done by and be peer-reviewed by scholars whose standing in the field would be impeccable.

Subject: RE: BS: A Puzzle For Historians
From: Bonnie Shaljean
Date: 30 Apr 08 - 09:50 AM

Good points, guys - in fact, after thinking about it a bit more, I revised my own opinion. Unfortunately this was also after I had hit the Submit link. Too bad the Cat doesn't have a Delete/Edit button.

I also like Richard's point about pre-empting the looney-tunes editions, and Jack's about free availability on the internet. We all know who else will take full advantage of it -


<:-(

[Bonnie in a dunce's cap]

Subject: RE: BS: A Puzzle For Historians
From: Donuel
Date: 30 Apr 08 - 10:02 AM

They should publish it along with the Hitler Diaries* like one of those 2 books in one, where one is upside down and backwards and printed on every second page. \

*proven as a hoax

Subject: RE: BS: A Puzzle For Historians
From: John on the Sunset Coast
Date: 30 Apr 08 - 11:22 AM

This puts me in mind of the novel, "White Noise." The protagonist is a non-German-speaking professor of Hitler Studies at a fictional, small university. I read it about ten years ago. It is a satire, BTW.

Subject: RE: BS: A Puzzle For Historians
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 30 Apr 08 - 01:55 PM

Mein Kampf, copies may be found in many used-book stores. 'Annotated' versions- whatever that means- are available. There is even a book, Cambridge Press, which gives a publishing history to 1980.
One is the Reynal & Hitchcock edition of 1939, and several subsequent re-printings, easily obtained at used book sources.

A fuller 'annotation' with all the bells and whistles is what is meant, with historical and social commentaries and digressions.

In print with several re-printings is one that addresses the history and background:
Mein Kampf, trans R. Manheim, Intro by D. C. Watt. Hutchinson, and reprint by Pimlico, London and Houghton, Mifflin, NY, etc. Watt was professor of International History, Univ. London; His 'Introduction' is detailed, "giving origins and history of the book, a critical assessment of Hitler's ideas and his understanding of political power."

Werner Maser, trans. R. H. Barry, 1970, "Hitler's Mein Kampf- An Analysis," Faber & Faber, was originally published in German.

Commentaries have been published in Germany, inc. Halbritter, Kurt, 1975, "Adolph Hitler's Mein Kampf, gezeichnete Erinnerungen an eine grosse Zeit," Carl Hanser Verlag.

There are many socio-historical works which go into the background of Mein Kampf.

I think a publisher is trying to use the copyright story in order to drum up interest in a new (his) edition.

Subject: RE: BS: A Puzzle For Historians
From: GUEST,Slag
Date: 01 May 08 - 01:24 AM

It was so nice of dear Mr. Hitler to give us his detailed plan of what he was going to do to Germany and the world. It would be a shame to keep it from everybody. Rabid people and their rabid ideas should be exposed. Next time we may even listen.

Subject: RE: BS: A Puzzle For Historians
From: John on the Sunset Coast
Date: 01 May 08 - 01:13 PM

Alan Cranston, later long time senator from Calif., published "Mien Kampf" in the United States in 1939. As Slag has suggested now be done, Cranston wanted to alert Americans to the full insanity of the dictator in his own words. He was sued by Hitler's publisher, and had to withdraw the translation!

Subject: RE: BS: A Puzzle For Historians
From: Slag
Date: 03 May 08 - 06:19 PM

I also have the Communist Manifesto and Chairman Mao's Little Red Book. Quite informative and interesting reading!

Subject: RE: BS: A Puzzle For Historians
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 03 May 08 - 10:08 PM

US copyright on the English language version is held by Houghton Mifflin, who first published the work in 1939 (copyright still valid). Editorial sponsor John Chamberlain.
Stackpole, and Reynal & Hitchcock were first to the post in 1939 getting copies accepted by the Book-of-the-Month Club, but the Second Cout of Appeals ruled in favor of H & M, and Stackpole was enjoined from selling its translation.
An abridged edition was published by Houghton & Mifflin in 1933. A serialized edition was published in England, in 1939.

http://www.cabinetmagazine.org/issues/10/mein_royalties.php

Subject: RE: BS: A Puzzle For Historians
From: Slag
Date: 04 May 08 - 01:49 AM

I read Mien Kampf, English version in high school, required reading for a class. I cannot recall the publisher but there were a lot of copies circulating within the school and had been so some length of time. I remember our teacher telling of an experiment by another teacher in a school "somewhere". He encouraged the loners and misfits to begin dressing alike and affect an air of pride and (self?) righteousness. The thing got quickly out of hand and many of the kids who had suddenly become the "in" crowd were devastated when they learned the nature of the experiment.

No! It could never happen here!