Musician Rudeness

Subject: Musician Rudeness
From: Alan Day
Date: 13 May 08 - 04:16 AM

I have recently started to go to Folk Clubs again after many years absence.I just cannot believe the rudeness of mainly the musicians at clubs I have attended.
One tuning up and discussing chords with another player whilst someone was performing.Completely ignoring a performer on stage and cutting straight across his vision with guitars and instruments ,talking
jumping up to go out for a drink in front of the performer.
We always used to wait until the performer has finished and then go in quietly, or go for a drink between sets etc.I can understand possibly a few members of the audience not knowing the rules but musicians should know better.
Al

Subject: RE: Musician Rudeness
From: GUEST,Joe
Date: 13 May 08 - 04:30 AM

There is one particular musician I know who plays Bodhran, who insists on walking into the middle of a session, usually whilst someone is singing or playing a tune, then shouts hello to everyone, shouts his order to the bar then shows everyone his latest rhythms, as loud as possible! (still mid song / tune)

Possibly as annoying is when someone is playing a tune and people join in and take over the tune. (I am guilty of this sometimes!) Especially when they play a different version of the tune!

I am a big fan of the informal session but there should be a bit more awareness of what is going on!

Subject: RE: Musician Rudeness
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 13 May 08 - 04:31 AM

Face it Al, this is a selfish, egocentric society we live in. It happens in all walks of life now, and lack of manners, and consideration for others, is a lost grace.


Giok

Subject: RE: Musician Rudeness
From: Acorn4
Date: 13 May 08 - 04:43 AM

As is often the case in most areas of life, the musicians who do this kind of thing are high on ego, low on talent.

Subject: RE: Musician Rudeness
From: Geoff the Duck
Date: 13 May 08 - 05:01 AM

A musician is someone who listens to music and other players.
Someone who behaves as described is NOT a musician.
Quack!
GtD.

Subject: RE: Musician Rudeness
From: Harmonium Hero
Date: 13 May 08 - 11:23 AM

Have to agree with Giok on this one; this is a selfish, egocentric society. People talk about the 'me generation'; it's now become the 'me society'. And - nothing new here - it's not usually the people with something to shout about who do the shouting.
John Kelly.

Subject: RE: Musician Rudeness
From: TheSnail
Date: 13 May 08 - 11:40 AM

Wow! The bad behaviour of one guitarist and one bodhran player is enough to condemn a whole generation.

Subject: RE: Musician Rudeness
From: PoppaGator
Date: 13 May 08 - 11:42 AM

Singing or playing along ~ "barging in" ~ may be considered offensive in some contexts and not others, but it is understandable, and at least it consists of participation in the music that is currently being sung/played/performed.

Flat-out interruption of the proceedings is something else again, and should not be tolerated.

I have absolutely no knowledge of the UK folk-club scene, but it would seem to me that any kind of "club" at all would have some sort of semi-regular membership. Those who attend fairly reguarly, and who know each other, have the responsibility of enforcing whatever standards the group might hope to maintain. I mean, who else is going to do it for you? It should not be necessary to hold formal elections of officers, or whatever, to agree upon a spokesperson (one of the more self-assured members, I would suppose) who can be expected to speak up when a newcomer violates decorum, and who in turn can expect his/her fellow "members" or regulars to back him up if the offender(s) fail to respond appropriately.

Subject: RE: Musician Rudeness
From: GUEST,TJ in San Diego
Date: 13 May 08 - 11:48 AM

Half-fast drivers with cell phones in their ears'
Loud, obnoxious celebrants with loud and lusty cheers,
Hooligans at sports events who've overdosed on beers,
Who raised this band of miscreants, the nasty little dears?

Arrogant and thoughtless, as they climb their social ladders,
Pushy, angry, malcontents who never learned their manners,
They scramble over you and me, hissing just like adders!
But, soon enough, as we pass by, we'll salute them with our bladders.

Subject: RE: Musician Rudeness
From: Peace
Date: 13 May 08 - 12:00 PM

I have never understood the propensity of people at sessions, sin-arounds, performances to tolerate that shit. Throw the sonuvabitch out. I don't see the problem. "The door's over there; use it! Come back when you've learned to behave."

Subject: RE: Musician Rudeness
From: GUEST,Joe
Date: 13 May 08 - 12:01 PM

I blame television.

Subject: RE: Musician Rudeness
From: AlexB
Date: 13 May 08 - 12:10 PM

What goes on at a sin-around then, Peace? Sounds exciting!

Subject: RE: Musician Rudeness
From: Deckman
Date: 13 May 08 - 12:11 PM

What's the matter over there ... don't you guys carry guns? We do! SSSHHHEEEUUUHHH! Bob(deckman)Nelson

Subject: RE: Musician Rudeness
From: Beer
Date: 13 May 08 - 12:12 PM

Three years ago I went to a spot where I heard the music was great. There was easily a hundred people there and about 30 musicians. When it was my turn to go up and do my three numbers I crossed my arms and waited for the audience to stop talking. When they stopped, I proceeded to sing the three songs. I never went back. I was asked by a lady as to why I don't go any more and I told her. She replied by saying "I don't blame you, it is a good thing gone bad".

Subject: RE: Musician Rudeness
From: Peace
Date: 13 May 08 - 12:17 PM

"What goes on at a sin-around then, Peace? Sounds exciting!"

OOPS. I forot a letter, huh?

Subject: RE: Musician Rudeness
From: glueman
Date: 13 May 08 - 12:26 PM

If people don't shush you're allowed to invoke the 1954 Marshall stack clause. Plug in and blow their chairs over.

Subject: RE: Musician Rudeness
From: Cath
Date: 13 May 08 - 12:27 PM

I have to say that the musicians who were paid performers, and those who were playing for love of the music, at this weekend's Holmfirth festival were lovely people to work with and listen to. To a man and woman they were great and I would have no hesitation in inviting them back and all the feed back we have had says the same.
In my experience the ones who cause most trouble are those who demand the highest fees and have an inflated idea of their importance and I try not to book them if at all possible - at least not twice!

Subject: RE: Musician Rudeness
From: The Sandman
Date: 13 May 08 - 12:34 PM

you must be talking about me, Cath.what a lovely pub the nook is.http://www.dickmiles.com

Subject: RE: Musician Rudeness
From: Rog Peek
Date: 13 May 08 - 12:49 PM

In all walks of life, you will find good and bad, well mannered and rude, it just seems that these days there are more of the latter than there used to be. Haven't you noticed, we live in an age of bad manners. Why should it be any different with musicians.

I have taught for 35 years and am dismayed by the gradually declining beaviour and demeanour of some parents attending parents' evenings. It is not that unusual these days to have a parent sit opposite you dressed for the beach, and the discussion to be punctuated with mobile phone calls.

Subject: RE: Musician Rudeness
From: Don Firth
Date: 13 May 08 - 01:02 PM

I don't know if this would work in the British folk clubs, but—

I knew a fellow back in the 1960s, an unemployed actor, who used to frequent the coffeehouse where I was the "house singer." Alex was a bit of an egomaniac, and he used to give my a great deal of unwanted advice on my performances, particularly what he thought I was doing wrong. Among other things, it was my duty as a performer to keep his interest engaged. It didn't seem to matter to him that the rest of the audience was thoroughly engaged;   I had to keep his interest. The main problem with that was that Alex was primarily interested in himself.

One evening when I was in the middle of a set, which was generally going well, I could hear Alex's stage voice booming out of the back of the place as he talked loudly to a couple of people he had brought with him. People turned and glared at him, some shushing him, but he continued to run his loud mouth—of course thoroughly embarrassing his table companions. By doing this, his message to me was that I had failed to engage his interest.

After he had talked loudly through the better part of two songs, when I finished my current song (getting a particularly enthusiastic ovation from the rest of the audience, letting me know that, whoever the bullhorn in the back corner was, they were with me), I was totally fed up and decided to take direct action.

Although the place didn't really need a PA system, there was one there, and it was turned on, giving just a slight boost to my voice and guitar. Normally I sang about two feet back from the mic. After the applause died away, I leaned in very close to the mic and said, loudly,

"ALEX!"

My voice, coming out of several speakers around the place, sounded like the Voice of God. Surprised at my suddenly very loud voice coming at him from all directions, Alex's head jerked up and he looked at me. Having got his attention, I delivered my message.

"ALEX, SHUT THE HELL UP!!!"

The rest of the audience burst into applause!

Alex got up and left. I haven't seen him since.

I'm not exactly heartbroken about that, though.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: Musician Rudeness
From: GUEST,The Mole Catcher's unplugged Apprentice
Date: 13 May 08 - 03:06 PM

"If people don't shush you're allowed to invoke the 1954 Marshall stack clause. Plug in and blow their chairs over."

ONLY if you've a Fender Strat (preferably an original 1954, though you can get away with models as late as 1961 *LOL*) plugged into the stack.

Charlotte R

Subject: RE: Musician Rudeness
From: Harmonium Hero
Date: 13 May 08 - 03:24 PM

Snail: no, the behaviour of two musicians isn't enough to condemn a whole generation. But haven't you noticed a decline in the standards of behaviour of a substantial part of our society - not just one generation? A lot of us have.
Peace: these sinarounds were mentioned on another thread recently. I'm intrigued; is this a trend? Do you have to take a partner alomg, or is it OK just to join in?
Guest Joe: I agree about the session taking over your tune. Try playing your cleverly-arranged version of 'Princess Royal'; you'll be drowned out before you've played the first two bars. I tried it once. I've also had the experience of starting a tune at a lively pace, and other people have galloped away with it, so that I'm struggling in vain to hold it back. Then at the end, someone has turned to me and said "blimey, that was fast". What do you say to them?
John Kelly.

Subject: RE: Musician Rudeness
From: PoppaGator
Date: 13 May 08 - 03:35 PM

And don't forget to turn the Marshalls up to ELEVEN, as per Spinal Tap!

Subject: RE: Musician Rudeness
From: irishenglish
Date: 13 May 08 - 03:52 PM

Why not just make 10 be the loudest?                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      These go to 11!!! LOL, Poppagator!

Subject: RE: Musician Rudeness
From: GUEST
Date: 13 May 08 - 03:55 PM

The late, great playwright, George S. Kaufman, was watching the debut performance of one of his shows from the rear of the theater. He was particularly annoyed at the work of the lead actor in the first scenes. At the intermission, he sent a page with a note to the dressing room, in which he wrote: "Enjoying the play from the foyer; wish you were here!"

In past times, people could be rude, but the more literate among them at least used some class when being so. Now, we have semi-literates who wouldn't recognize appropriate behavior if it crept up and bit 'em on the ass!

Subject: RE: Musician Rudeness
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 13 May 08 - 04:52 PM

Musicians - rudeness - 2 come to mind - Martin Allcock and Bernard O'Neil!!

Subject: RE: Musician Rudeness
From: TheSnail
Date: 13 May 08 - 05:00 PM

Harmonium Hero

But haven't you noticed a decline in the standards of behaviour of a substantial part of our society - not just one generation?

I think every generation says that when the reach a certain age.

Try playing your cleverly-arranged version of 'Princess Royal'; you'll be drowned out before you've played the first two bars.

Play in F or Bb. It at least keeps the G/D melodeons out. G minor can be risky. "Oh! It's in G!" Vrooooommmmm.

Subject: RE: Musician Rudeness
From: M.Ted
Date: 13 May 08 - 05:00 PM

It seems to me that manners of any sort were pretty much thrown by the people who reached the age of reason in the Sixties and early Seventies. And it seems to me that many of the complainers today were among the complained about then--could be wrong, though--

Subject: RE: Musician Rudeness
From: GUEST,The Mole Catcher's unplugged Apprentice
Date: 13 May 08 - 05:06 PM

"But haven't you noticed a decline in the standards of behaviour of a substantial part of our society - not just one generation?

I think every generation says that when the reach a certain age."

Yes, and it's then we realise that we've become the people our parents are or were, as in "Oh God. I've become my mother!"

Charlotte R

Subject: RE: Musician Rudeness
From: Peace
Date: 13 May 08 - 05:10 PM

"ONLY if you've a Fender Strat"

Telecaster, Charlotte, TELECASTER. Dang. I had an original way back and if you can believe this, I traded it for a Framus acoustic. Death where IS they sting!

Subject: RE: Musician Rudeness
From: GUEST,The Mole Catcher's unplugged Apprentice
Date: 13 May 08 - 05:13 PM

I own and still play my late mom's 1961 Strat (black) :-D Oh someone did mention that the Marshall amps go to 11 did they? *LOL*

Charlotte R

Subject: RE: Musician Rudeness
From: Harmonium Hero
Date: 13 May 08 - 05:33 PM

Snail: yes, every generation has summat 'say about the young 'uns, but that is often more to do with clothes/hair/music, etc. My parents' generation certainly had a few opinions on that score. But look at the Beatles and Rolling Stones in the early 60s. What nice boys, compared with, for instance, certain members of Oasis. OK, Lennon got a bit mouthy in the later period, but I don't think anybody ever accused him of rudeness, and I don't think that any of them - in public, at least (I can't vouch for their private lives) behaves any differently now. There HAS been a decline. No question. I'm a sensitive soul, me; I notice these things, and always have done. It's not just that I'm now a grumpy old man.
Disgusted of Wigan.

Subject: RE: Musician Rudeness
From: GUEST,Shocked and Appalled in Reading
Date: 13 May 08 - 05:37 PM

Musicians - rudeness, disgraceful I call it, and a severe decline the general morals of young folk today!!! we live in an age of bad manners...absolutely, it's disgusting!!

I remain.....

Subject: RE: Musician Rudeness
From: Grab
Date: 13 May 08 - 05:47 PM

I think every generation says that when the reach a certain age.

The funny thing is that you guys are saying it about your *own* generations. The kids are all right, but the parents and grandparents are out-of-control nutjobs. :-)

Graham.

Subject: RE: Musician Rudeness
From: TheSnail
Date: 13 May 08 - 05:51 PM

Grab

The kids are all right, but the parents and grandparents are out-of-control nutjobs. :-)

Quite right too. Grow old disgracefully, that's what I say.

Subject: RE: Musician Rudeness
From: GUEST,The Mole Catcher's unplugged Apprentice
Date: 13 May 08 - 05:53 PM

whatever you say "Graham"..my parents are/were very far from, as you so quaintly put it, nutjobs, the same can be said for my sisters and I, so you see "Graham", you, to coin another quaint phrase, are completely out to lunch *LOL* and yes I'm laughing at you, not with you

Charlotte R

Subject: RE: Musician Rudeness
From: Alan Day
Date: 13 May 08 - 05:57 PM

In fairness to the young Folk Generation, the best behaved was the youngest person at one of the clubs ,enthusiastic,played and sang brilliantly and if he is an example of the younger generation,bring some more in.It was the older musicians that were the problem ,artists that have been around years,who it would appear have forgotten the basic rules of politeness when someone is performing.Those who would complain the most if it happened to them whilst they were on stage.
Should we folkies have to rely on amplification to overcome background noise,I certainly do not think so,but is that the way Folk will have to be presented?
I hope not

Al

Subject: RE: Musician Rudeness
From: GUEST,Val
Date: 13 May 08 - 06:00 PM

The problem is, there are no serious consequences these days for rudeness.

Now back in the Good Old Days of the American West when everybody with a lick o' sense carried a six-gun most folk were more polite. The perpetually rude didn't last long.

Subject: RE: Musician Rudeness
From: GUEST,The Mole Catcher's unplugged Apprentice
Date: 13 May 08 - 06:07 PM

I certainly don't have a problem with using amplification. As I stated a bit ago, I own and still play my late mom's 1961 Strat. Seems some people had a problem with Bob Dylan and Fairport Convention "plugging in"......

Charlotte

Subject: RE: Musician Rudeness
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 13 May 08 - 06:15 PM

I certainly don't have a problem with using amplification. As I stated a bit ago, I own and still play my late mom's 1961 Strat. Seems some people had a problem with Bob Dylan and Fairport Convention "plugging in"......

I don't think that's the point. I don't think a performer in a folk club should be forced into using amplification to overcome background chatter, etc.

As it happens, over the last 12 months or so, the only singing I've heard has been unamplified and audiences have been quiet so I don't think there is a problem. (And while I know we can all encounter the problems raised in the first couple of posts, I can't say I've witnessed anything that would lead me to believe its on the increase).

Subject: RE: Musician Rudeness
From: irishenglish
Date: 13 May 08 - 06:17 PM

For Bonzo- what did Maartin Allcock do that was rude, I'm curious. I've chatted with him a few times, seems a perfectly decent bloke.

Subject: RE: Musician Rudeness
From: glueman
Date: 13 May 08 - 06:19 PM

Well now you mention it I did propose the Telecaster as the definitive English instrument. Like Churchill, at least half American but with impeccably wasted Albion lineage.

Subject: RE: Musician Rudeness
From: GUEST,The Mole Catcher's unplugged Apprentice
Date: 13 May 08 - 06:20 PM

Plugging in is a personal preference...and I prefer it..and you know what, it certainly sounded like an objection to amplification to me, so I stand by what I said.

Charlotte R

Subject: RE: Musician Rudeness
From: skarpi
Date: 13 May 08 - 06:21 PM

are you playing a " Concert " or are playing as a "trubador" ?

or are going to a session ???


there is a diffrent there between .

on concert you have the holy room quiet , trubador you are playing
music as people want to dance with , and on session well you all know
how that goes .


ATB Skarpi Iceland

Subject: RE: Musician Rudeness
From: glueman
Date: 13 May 08 - 06:27 PM

To plug or not to plug? Unfettered acoustics have the moral and even aesthetic high ground, but what's worse than a room of hushed reverence when you can have riotous bawd. On balance I'm with Mr Marshall, preferably with valves.

Subject: RE: Musician Rudeness
From: mandotim
Date: 14 May 08 - 05:36 AM

Also for Bonzo; I've known Maart Allcock since I was at school with him 40 years ago, and I've never known him be rude to anyone, in fact the reverse; he's always good-humoured and accessible, with a wicked sense of humour. Like lots of musicians he is slightly deaf from all the exposure to high levels of amplification, but rude? Not the Maart I know at all. What happened to form this view?
Tim

Subject: RE: Musician Rudeness
From: Grab
Date: 14 May 08 - 06:02 AM

Bad hangover, Charlotte...?

yes I'm laughing at you, not with you

Be sure that's mutual.

Subject: RE: Musician Rudeness
From: GUEST,Edthefolkie
Date: 14 May 08 - 06:46 AM

Maart rude? Not in my experience either. He's a great musician and a great chap. And he gives great T shirt slogan too.

Subject: RE: Musician Rudeness
From: GUEST
Date: 14 May 08 - 07:18 AM

Skarpi raises a pertinent point (I'm fond of alliteration). Sessions are sessions are sessions. They are for musicians to play, learn and share. I'm very annoyed when I ring a venue in advance and ask the specific question "is this an open session, are all musicians welcome" to which I usually get the response "yes, totally open"...only to arrive and find that the people who have been hired to be there every week just to assure that someone is there (and you people, don't fool yourselves by thinking you cannot be replaced) are playing in Eflat and can't bring themselves to look you in the eye let alone greet you and welcome you when you arrive with your instruments. Lately, I just say "you obviously don't know who I am" which causes them to reflect, and I hang in like a rat terrier. Some people don't have the chutzpah to do this and often listeners miss out on the opportunity to hear/see something or someone "fresh". Shameful and shocking (more alliteration!). Keep the faith, be strong and move forward always!

Subject: RE: Musician Rudeness
From: theleveller
Date: 14 May 08 - 08:24 AM

"For Bonzo- what did Maartin Allcock do that was rude"

Probably passed the port the wrong way. Boko's very particular about these things.

Subject: RE: Musician Rudeness
From: mandotim
Date: 14 May 08 - 08:26 AM

Knowing Maart, I'd be very surprised if the port got passed at all!
Tim

Subject: RE: Musician Rudeness
From: mattkeen
Date: 14 May 08 - 08:38 AM

Standards, standards - its all going to pot.

According to friend, in the South of England they have started eating each others children.

Its a warning, we are next.

Subject: RE: Musician Rudeness
From: theleveller
Date: 14 May 08 - 09:02 AM

Even worse, there are some who don't wash their Range Rovers every Sunday.

Subject: RE: Musician Rudeness
From: mattkeen
Date: 14 May 08 - 09:05 AM

Where will it all end

Subject: RE: Musician Rudeness
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 14 May 08 - 09:13 AM

Dirty Range Rovers?

Subject: RE: Musician Rudeness
From: mattkeen
Date: 14 May 08 - 09:15 AM

I can hardly stand the embaressment

Subject: RE: Musician Rudeness
From: M.Ted
Date: 14 May 08 - 10:22 AM

I think that the chief way that musicians are rude is in not fullfilling our trivial expectations--

Subject: RE: Musician Rudeness
From: GUEST,Sid
Date: 14 May 08 - 01:14 PM

I was in a foak club once and a fiddler farted!

Subject: RE: Musician Rudeness
From: GUEST,eliza c
Date: 14 May 08 - 01:33 PM

In my experience, younger people are delightful and polite; it's the grannies and granddads you have to watch out for. They are so terrified by the Daily Mail and the television that even if you are stepping out of their way or holding a door open, they will not acknowledge you or say thank you!
I've seen some very rude bodhran playing in sessions. Some of them don't even ask if it's a non-bodhran room!
x ec

Subject: RE: Musician Rudeness
From: irishenglish
Date: 14 May 08 - 01:36 PM

Wasn't it Four Men and A Dog who had a song called The Moron With The Bodhran about exactly what Eliza mentioned? BTW, Eliza, awaiting the new album, got a taste of it on myspace-excellent stuff!

Subject: RE: Musician Rudeness
From: Acorn4
Date: 14 May 08 - 01:37 PM

If it had been a melodeon player farting, you wouldn't have noticed, would you?

Subject: RE: Musician Rudeness
From: TheSnail
Date: 14 May 08 - 01:53 PM

From the Wikipedia entry fo Minstrel -

In England before the Norman Conquest, the professional poet was known as a scôp ("shaper" or "maker"), who composed his own poems, and sang them to the accompaniment of a rude harp.

I'm not sure if the rudeness of a harp lies in the way it is played or if it is covered in suggestive carvings.

Subject: RE: Musician Rudeness
From: Peace
Date: 14 May 08 - 01:53 PM

IMO, kids are no more or less rude that they were say fifty years ago. It's a shame really that the good guys don't make the news more often. As to manners in clubs, I still don't understand why folks don't tell the rude one(s) (quietly for the first attempt than less quietly for the second and last) to STFU!

Of course, I'm a colonial and I ain't too long outta the trees.

Subject: RE: Musician Rudeness
From: GUEST,The Mole Catcher's unplugged Apprentice
Date: 14 May 08 - 01:58 PM

"Bad hangover, Charlotte...?"

Sorry I'm one of those rather odd people in the "folk" world...I don't touch alcohol, and the stereotype of the drinking folkie has always amused me s'matter Grab some splash mud on your brand new Range Rover *LOL*

Charlotte R

Subject: RE: Musician Rudeness
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 14 May 08 - 02:20 PM

The Moron With The Bodhran

Incidentally, it's pronounced "Mo-RAHWHHN".

Subject: RE: Musician Rudeness
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 14 May 08 - 05:02 PM

The worst piece of rudeness I ever saw shown towards a fellow performer was thrust on us by the great Bob Davenport at The Musical Traditions Club in London about ten years ago.
The guests were two Irish singers; Roisín White from Armagh and Therese Mullan, a Sean Nos singer from The Aran Islands.
Therese thoughtfully took the trouble to give a short explanation of her Irish language songs - our hero pointedly spoke loudly over her introductions.
We heard him say "I thought we'd got rid of this pretentious shite back in the sixties".
When we asked him to shut up he replied loudly, so the whole room could hear, "I came here to listen to singing, not f****** talking".
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Musician Rudeness
From: Alan Day
Date: 14 May 08 - 05:49 PM

A similar thing happened to me Jim in Sterling Scotland,I played a few tunes on my concertina that went well and then decided to do a very cleverly written monologue called The Old Castle written early 1900.
Half way through a drunk shouted out "Stop the talking and play yer F... Sqeezbox" I was followed by a Scot who told a monologue I could not understand a word of, but as everyone was laughing so I guessed it was funnier than my one. Not one of my best evenings.
Al

Subject: RE: Musician Rudeness
From: The Sandman
Date: 14 May 08 - 05:54 PM

I find guest performers,who sit outside the clubroom,and only come in for their sets ,rude.
a couple of years ago I was booked in a club in Clonakilty,with two fiddlers.In walked a Dutchman with a dozen harmonicas,he proceeded to join in every tune when he didnt know the tune or key,the harmonica sounding rather like a concertina,from my point of view was very distracting,when I asked him to stop as it was off putting,He got very agitated and started shouting and swearing.
   I looked at him,and he ran away.

Subject: RE: Musician Rudeness
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 14 May 08 - 06:36 PM

I blame Margaret Thatcher.

But then again I blame her for everything.

:D

Subject: RE: Musician Rudeness
From: GUEST,The Mole Catcher's unplugged Apprentice
Date: 14 May 08 - 06:41 PM

"I blame Margaret Thatcher."

and we blame Stephen Harper (current [Conservative] prime minister) here in Canada *LOL*

Charlotte R

Subject: RE: Musician Rudeness
From: GUEST,TJ in San Diego
Date: 14 May 08 - 07:28 PM

While many of us seem to be discovering this lapse of manners only in the most recent generations, it is well to consider just how long more seasoned folks have complained about their younger counterparts. No less a light than Socrates once complained that "The younger generation is going to the dogs." Nothing is really new in the world, only rediscovered, or improved upon - including bad manners.

Subject: RE: Musician Rudeness
From: Zen
Date: 15 May 08 - 05:18 AM

It just reflects society in general... most are fine, a few are complete ignorami and it has no relationship with ability. After 40 years playing in sessions you can usually sense who falls into which category without a note being played or a word being said. Fortunately, my experiences have generally been positive and the few bad ones haven't put me off.

Zen

Subject: RE: Musician Rudeness
From: The Sandman
Date: 15 May 08 - 07:20 AM

Jim Carroll,is Bob Davenport a musician?

Subject: RE: Musician Rudeness
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 15 May 08 - 07:39 AM

Cap'n,
It's a moot point whether he's even a singer as far as I'm concerned.
I was taking the term 'musician' in its widest definition - please do not be pedantic.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Musician Rudeness
From: Mr Red
Date: 15 May 08 - 07:56 AM

Was it ever thus.

etiquette has changed. In society! The only positve thing is that it is demonstating "Folk" (as in what they all do) in the modern idiom.

I have to say if you went to somewhere like the Somers (Fri, Albion, Worcester) they would not just take a dim view of it, words would be said. It is a singers (& musicians) club and they demand respect, and get it.

In general I would think they are mostly of the same respectful type. I would vote with my feet and maybe report such in my column of "Folk West". PM if you think it appropriate geographically.

But then this is no different in concept to the volume at larger festivals leaking into the (distant) other venues. This is just more personal and insidious. If the organisers don't mind - don't go.

Of course it could be gamesmanship (aka jealousy).

Subject: RE: Musician Rudeness
From: Mr Red
Date: 15 May 08 - 08:06 AM

Wow! The bad behaviour of one guitarist and one bodhran player is enough to condemn a whole generation

You want a list of instances that make the statement believable?
How long have you got?

What about the Festivalgoer who parks his huge caravan 20 feet from his car, and flings doors open, sound system full belt while he sits under his distant gazebo cooking on his barbie? In the quiet area.
And he is probably not a musician. But given the festival it was seen at - about in keeping with the kind of clientele the festival wish to attract. Come the downturn they will see who the faithfull are and it won't be the me generation. Or me.

Subject: RE: Musician Rudeness
From: manitas_at_work
Date: 15 May 08 - 08:24 AM

20 feet! At some festivals he would have found another two rows of tents in there the next morning.

Subject: RE: Musician Rudeness
From: GUEST,Jim Knowledge
Date: 15 May 08 - 08:56 AM

`ere Sid, I `ad that farting fiddler in my cab once. We`d only gorn a quarter of a mile and I was `bliged to tell `im, "Oi, you can cut that out too, it`s very rude! What about my uvver fares?"
`e said, " Can`t you open the windows for `em?"
I said, "Windows!! I`d `ave to cut off the bleedin` roof!"

What am I like??

Subject: RE: Musician Rudeness
From: the lemonade lady
Date: 15 May 08 - 01:18 PM

I sang in a club in an Oxford pub once a few years ago. Behind me on the wall was a very large notice saying

"WHEN THE SINGER'S ON, SHUT THE F**K UP!"

I think that does it for me!

Sal

Subject: RE: Musician Rudeness
From: Grab
Date: 15 May 08 - 01:20 PM

I don't touch alcohol

That must save you a fortune - some of us have to drink gallons before we start acting that way. *LOL*

Subject: RE: Musician Rudeness
From: Alan Day
Date: 15 May 08 - 01:40 PM

I have an old monologue Jim called The Taxi Drivers Story and E talks exacly like wot you do.
Nice one Sal, perhaps we should get a few of those printed.
Al

Subject: RE: Musician Rudeness
From: s&r
Date: 15 May 08 - 02:01 PM

I have travelled the world around
and found
a plethora of song
beyond their ken
These baser men

And they would me berate
O how they prate
They are so wrong
They do not see
They should agree

The license(?) I have got
Should tell them what
They need to know
Well travelled and well read
It's in my head

My motives are so pure
Of that I'm sure
Of that although
My subtle mind
leaves most behind

Subject: RE: Musician Rudeness
From: the man himself
Date: 15 May 08 - 02:01 PM

I had some experience of "the great Bob Davenport" when I ran a club way back. My booked guest was ill, and I was offered BD by the agent - I didn't want him, but at three hours notice I was stuck. So he came, sat in the bar until he was on, spoke to no-one, didn't respond with more than a grunt when I spoke to him. The performance was stereotypical "Geordie-away-from-home".
I don't bad-mouth people much, but in this case....
Or as the expression goes, I wouldn't........if he was on fire.

Subject: RE: Musician Rudeness
From: s&r
Date: 15 May 08 - 02:03 PM

oops - wrong thread.....
Stu

Subject: RE: Musician Rudeness
From: GUEST,The Mole Catcher's unplugged Apprentice
Date: 15 May 08 - 02:09 PM

"That must save you a fortune - some of us have to drink gallons before we start acting that way. *LOL"

I know, I've had to assist in picking someone like you off the floor, really it too much trouble at times, but why waste the tax payers money having you hauled off by the police...and is it any wonder there's a generation gap..

"The problem is, there are no serious consequences these days for rudeness."

whatever happened to a good thick ear? Or is that now considered child abuse?

Charlotte R

Subject: RE: Musician Rudeness
From: GUEST,Big Norman Voice
Date: 15 May 08 - 02:41 PM

You really need to learn when to say nothing Moly. You post in too many threads, making comments that are often out of place.
You come over as a spoilt and self opinionated child.
Sam may have warned you about people giving you a hard time, and I can only assume that's because he knows how you upset people, intentionally or otherwise.
Perhaps he'd have been better warning you to keep quiet unless you have something of interest to say.
Ideally a post should add to a thread, and possibly help move it on, and not sidetrack it, or kill it dead.
Please do yourself a favour, and think twice before you post next time.
This is friendly advice, and not a personal attack BTW.
BNV

Subject: RE: Musician Rudeness
From: GUEST,The Mole Catcher's unplugged Apprentice
Date: 15 May 08 - 02:45 PM

ahh...another hiding behind an alias...to be ignored I think...oh and pay attention to your own advice please.

Charlotte R

Subject: RE: Musician Rudeness
From: Bert
Date: 15 May 08 - 03:12 PM

Peace, it's OK to forget a letter and have a sin around; as long as it's not a French one!!!

Subject: RE: Musician Rudeness
From: Bert
Date: 15 May 08 - 04:31 PM

Here's the way that I have handled ill mannered 'background noise'.

I announce, "Here's a song that my Dad used to sing to us kids when we were very small"

(this song is sung very quietly except for the words quiet and riot which are shouted)

We must be ever so, ever so QUIET!
shhh! shhh! shhh!
don't make a noise it will lead to a RIOT!
shhh! shhh! shhh!
can't you hear the tick of the clock
dickory, dickory, dickory, dock
We must be ever so, ever so, ever so, ever so, ever so, ever so, QUIET!

Subject: RE: Musician Rudeness
From: Def Shepard
Date: 15 May 08 - 05:29 PM

People who talk while a musician is performing drives me right up the wall, unfortunately shhhing them adds further to the noise, so my sister (a musician herself) points to one of the talkers and very politely asks if the person is a musician, generally the answer is no, she then asks if they work for a living, the answer is generally yes. My sister replies, "well I'm a musician, I'm working, so will you please let me do my job" The approach is quite effective. A slight thread drift here, rudeness on forums is something else that drives me crazy.

Subject: RE: Musician Rudeness
From: trevek
Date: 15 May 08 - 06:02 PM

I was in Galway a few years back and later returned to find a few young British new-age hippies. They could play a decent tune but refused to learn the names ("It's not considered cool").

I asked if the local musicians let them join the sessions, "We don't always bother asking, we just set in there and start playing"

Bet that went down well.

It was in stark contrast to when I was doing a wee gig in Wexford and was approached by an elderly chap who asked if he and his friend might join my "session". As a young greenback I of course agreed. He pulled out a set of pipes and started playing. Someone with him told me he was one of the founders of a specific Irish music association (I forget which). What showed that this was such a class gentleman was not only his playing but his politeness and formality when asking to join, and then participating in a session run by a British... bodhran player.

Subject: RE: Musician Rudeness
From: PoppaGator
Date: 15 May 08 - 06:08 PM

I met with a number of very old friends last week in a local pub that features live music. We gathered about an hour and a half before the performer was scheduled to begin, and we were sitting around a table very near the stage because, well, that was the only table in the place large enough for all of us.

The evening's entertainment was a solo act, acoustic guitar and vocals. (Well, plugged-in ~ and fairly loud ~ acoustic.)

Most of us quieted down as soon as the fellow began to play, but one individual ~ the biggest, strongest, loudest, and perhaps drunkest among us ~ was completely oblivious to the singer and totally involved in our conversation (well, in his participation is said conversation). We all gave him the "hairy eyeball" and tried to use every non-verbal (silent) means to advise him to pipe down, because we didn't want to add more noise, more loud talk, to his.

Our strategy eventually worked and our old buddy got the message that he really ought to lower his voice, if not shut up altogether. But it took a few minutes, during which I was a little embarrassed and felt kind of impotent at my inability to fix the situation more quickly.

Lest anyone misunderstand, this was not a concert hall, nor even the kind of bar where silent attention to the entertainment is generally practiced and expected. It's a place where people normally converse, laugh, maybe sing along, and generally behave in a moderately rowdy manner, whther or not the live music is underway. The sound system is deliberately set up LOUD to accommodate the usual hubbub.

But we were right square in front of the stage, and our friend was very very loud ~ made the rest of us uncomfortable. Thankfully, the worst of it didn't last very long: One of our party had the presense of mind to start bantering with the performer as soon as the first song was done, making requests, etc., and engaging him in some back-and-forth dialog, and that was the end of the competing and offending offstage conversation.

Subject: RE: Musician Rudeness
From: Alan Day
Date: 16 May 08 - 05:26 AM

So this raises an interesting question.
Does Amplification create the talking and the lack of manners by the audience?
Al

Subject: RE: Musician Rudeness
From: TheSnail
Date: 16 May 08 - 05:43 AM

Alan Day

Does Amplification create the talking and the lack of manners by the audience?

That's certainly the impression I get. The more you turn up the amplification, the louder people will talk.

Subject: RE: Musician Rudeness
From: mattkeen
Date: 16 May 08 - 07:02 AM

Admittedly it does tend to increase the volume of those who are talking but that doesn't mean amplification causes talking does it

Subject: RE: Musician Rudeness
From: Midchuck
Date: 16 May 08 - 07:30 AM

So this raises an interesting question.
Does Amplification create the talking and the lack of manners by the audience?

I think the answer is, yes, it does - but not amplification of the particular performer at the moment, but a whole generation - well, two generations by now - growing up listening to amplified music. Often really loud amplified music. They take it as a given that the music will be so loud that you can talk loudly while it's going on, and people around you can still hear it.

Plus, of course, many young people now are even deafer than us old f*rts, from listening to loud amplified stuff for so long.

Peter

Subject: RE: Musician Rudeness
From: GUEST,Phil at work
Date: 16 May 08 - 07:35 AM

Amplification certainly facilitates talking (up to a point*) - and lack of amplification discourages it, at least when most of the audience expects to be able to hear the acts. This is one of the reasons I dislike amplification - actually, no, it's the reason I dislike amplification.

*I SAID, UP TO A... OH NEVER MIND! NEVER MIND! I SAID, NEVER MI...

Subject: RE: Musician Rudeness
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 16 May 08 - 07:54 AM

Does Amplification create the talking and the lack of manners by the audience?

I don't think so, at least not at lower levels. Going back to Llandudno in the 80s, in the summer a large part of the audience were holiday makers so I saw quite different groups of people each week. Some weeks were quieter than others and once in a while you would get a noisy table - it was just the way it went.

---
I wound up with I think the worst group we had on one of the odd weeks I was doing the MC. This group of 4 were sat closet to the stage and making life difficult/unpleasant for everyone. I tried going over and talking to them but it didn't make a difference for long.

Anyway, I probably shouldn't have done it but I then addressed them over the PA, noting that I'd already spoken to them politely, they were ruining the night for others and that if they wanted to chat there was the main bar. I then told them they had a choice, either enjoy the music quietly or chat in the other room but if they continued to be noisy in the club, I would fetch the landlord who would remove them from the room (and he would have supported this), but I didn't want to andf there was no need for this.

To my amazement, when I finished my "speech", there was loud applause from everyone else in the room. The group got up and stormed out (well one shouted some abuse at me) and in the end, that particular night turned out to be a really good one.

Subject: RE: Musician Rudeness
From: mandotim
Date: 16 May 08 - 07:55 AM

I've played a lot of fairly noisy pub gigs. One strategy I've used to discourage talking over the music when amplified is to gradually play softer and softer, until the voices of the talkers really stand out above the music; there is usually a moment of realisation, and a sort of sheepish silence results. A polite 'thank you' over the mike, and on we go.
Tim

Subject: RE: Musician Rudeness
From: The Sandman
Date: 16 May 08 - 08:23 AM

100.

Subject: RE: Musician Rudeness
From: Grab
Date: 16 May 08 - 08:31 AM

Dear Moley, remember our immortal Winston: "But in the morning, I will be sober and you will still be ugly."

(That Moley should choose to have a go on a thread about musician rudeness - the irony! :-)

One thing that hasn't really been touched on is the question of why the non-players are there in the first place. If it's a semi-formal singaround or session, or a formal folk club performance, then anyone there should know the score - namely STFU or at least keep the noise down if you do need to talk. And amplification here makes sure that people at the back can hear as clearly as people in the front row.

But if you're in a busy pub and other people in the pub have come there to have a chat and a pint with their mates, it's a bit of a different situation. The funny thing is that most people *are* still listening, so if you start up something unusual then you might suddenly find the room goes quiet as everyone stops to listen. The mistake then is to think you've got them and they're all yours - actually the noise level is likely to increase afterwards, as everyone starts talking at once! :-/

The big mistake of course is pushing your voice to try and respond. If people are listening, they're listening. If they're not particularly interested, then "SHE! LET! GO! MY! HAND! AND! SHE! MOVED! THROUGH! THE! FAIR!" isn't exactly going to change their mind. Even so though, learning that there's a time and place for delicate finger-picked arrangements and there's a time for balls-out strumming is a good lesson. Amplification in this kind of setting just lets the former be audible - it doesn't mean it's going to increase the number of people interested in what you're doing.

You can lead a horse to water but you can't make it sing (or listen to) folk music...

Graham.

Subject: RE: Musician Rudeness
From: theleveller
Date: 16 May 08 - 08:47 AM

At Cambridge last year I was sat in front of a particularly loud drunken group (especially the women) who had not listened to a single act. I finally said to them that nobody minded talking, but could they keep the screaming and shouting down. I was told that if I wanted to listen to the music I should go down to the front. I stood up, walked into the middle of their circle and said in a loud voice "I don't want to go to the front, I want you to shut the f**k up, is that a problem?" Like Jon, this was met with a round of applause and the group seemed to take the hint. Sometimes you just have to take the subtle approach.

Subject: RE: Musician Rudeness
From: Alan Day
Date: 16 May 08 - 08:52 AM

Interesting point Grab.
I often play at the George Session nr London Bridge it is in a bar used by the general public and it can be very noisy and as the music increases in volume so does the talking.I can accept that and expect that and it does in no way effect my evening and if the audience joins in or appreciates the music even over their talking it is a bonus.Perhaps from Folk Clubs I see it differently I go there expecting to perform in front of an audience,who are completely focussed on all the acts and react accordingly to the performance.Perhaps I got it wrong.
Al

Subject: RE: Musician Rudeness
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 16 May 08 - 09:01 AM

And amplification here makes sure that people at the back can hear as clearly as people in the front row.

Or, as I used to think on singers nights in Llandudno for example, that everyone taking a turn would be heard.

---
I'm mostly in sessions in main bars of pubs these days. Background noise goes with that and isn't usually (I have for example struggled to here Irish pipes 3ft from me) a problem and theres not usually anything you can do if it does get silly, apart from hope next week is quieter.

Subject: RE: Musician Rudeness
From: jacqui.c
Date: 16 May 08 - 09:12 AM

A folk club I used to go to was set in one small bar of a pub that had at least three bars. It was a weekly open event and we did have regular 'audience'. One week there was a group of about 4/5 people who were obviously not interested in the music at all, just sat in the middle of the room chatting away very loudly, in spite of the fact that there were other bars where they could sit. I finally asked them, if they were not listening to the music, to go to one of the other bars as they were spoiling the enjoyment of those of us who wanted to hear the performers. They got huffy but did leave.

We also had a few performers who wanted quiet while they were doing their bit (usually the same songs week after week after week.....) but would sit and chat, relatively quietly, while others were performing. there were also the partners of performers who would take the evening as an opportunity to catch up with gossip with each other, regardless of what was going on in the circle. I ended up dropping that particular club after a while as it really did get on my nerves to see such crass behaviour.

I go to listen to the performers and think that to talk whilst someone else is performing is the height of bad manners - I've had accusations of being unfriendly because I won't join in conversations when someone is singing. My attitude is, if you want a drink and a chat go do it somewhere where you don't disturb those of us that want to listen.

Subject: RE: Musician Rudeness
From: Acorn4
Date: 16 May 08 - 10:26 AM

I think sometmes, in noisy pubs, people can be listening "out of the corner of their ears".

Subject: RE: Musician Rudeness
From: Def Shepard
Date: 16 May 08 - 12:08 PM

Grab, you say "(That Moley should choose to have a go on a thread about musician rudeness - the irony! :-)" I find that the same irony id applicable to you. On my second day here in this forum, the only rudeness I've seen is yours and no one elses. To the rest of the posters, sorry for the thread drift

Subject: Lyr Add: YOUR MIND IS ON VACATION (Mose Allison)
From: GUEST,TJ in San Diego
Date: 16 May 08 - 01:37 PM

Somehow, all of this just brought to mind an old tune from jazz/blues performer, Mose Allison:

You're sittin' there yakkin' right in my face,
I guess I'm gonna have to put you in your place.
You know if silence was golden,
You couldn't raise a dime,
Because your mind is on vacation and your mouth is workin' overtime.

You're quotin' figures and droppin' names,
You're tellin' stories about the dames.
You're over-laughin' when things ain't funny,
You tryin' to sound like big money.
If talk was criminal, you'd lead a life o' crime,
Because your mind is on vacation and your mouth is workin' overtime.

You know that life is short; talk is cheap,
Don't be making promises that you can't keep.
If you don't like this song I'm singing, just grin and bear it.
All I can say is if the shoe fits wear it.
And if you must keep talkin', please try to make it rhyme,
Because your mind is on vacation and your mouth is working overtime."

Subject: RE: Musician Rudeness
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 16 May 08 - 01:45 PM

Its all a bit low key really.

If you go swimming, you get people sticking their elbow in your lughole as they try and do the butterfly. They dive on you and the water goes up your nose. Some bloody psychopaths wear a little rubber hat, nose clip, goggles and special swimming gloves, they swim everywhere underwater with their eyes closed go they keep biffing you. One time I saw this nice lady who was just trying to keep her shampoo and set out of the water soaked like a drowned rat, by one of these buggers doing a racing turn.

You don't get anything like that in folk clubs.

Subject: RE: Musician Rudeness
From: The Sandman
Date: 16 May 08 - 01:55 PM

But you used to get streakers,. who was it that streaked at Sidmouth?Dick Miles

Subject: RE: Musician Rudeness
From: The Sandman
Date: 16 May 08 - 01:56 PM

And if you must keep talkin', please try to make it rhyme,
Because your mind is on vacation and your mouth is working overtime."reminds me of WAV.

Subject: RE: Musician Rudeness
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 16 May 08 - 02:01 PM

But you used to get streakers,. who was it that streaked at Sidmouth?Dick Miles

Surely not - it doesn't bear thinking about.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Musician Rudeness
From: Grab
Date: 16 May 08 - 02:19 PM

Or, as I used to think on singers nights in Llandudno for example, that everyone taking a turn would be heard.

Yeah, also a factor. I'm sure everyone knows someone who wouldn't be heard beyond the middle four seats on the first row. :-/ Sometimes they're shy; sometimes they're unsure of their material; sometimes they're old and their voice isn't that strong (even though their song choice, playing and knowledge may make them well worth listening to); sometimes they think the breathy "pop styling" sound is what they should aim for; and more often they just weren't naturally gifted with a perfect voice and haven't found out yet about singing lessons for maximising what they've got.

Re what you were saying about noisy pubs, Jon, a club round our way moved locations a couple of years back. Previously it had been a mix of individuals singing with guitars and session tunes, in a very quiet pub with pretty good acoustics. The new place doesn't have great acoustics, it's fairly busy, and the only space for us was right next to the pool tables, so you've got people around who can't be expected to be quiet and listen (they have as much right to a chat over a game of pool as we do to play music). The club kind of stumbled a bit, but the singers dropped out gradually, and the players carried on and brought their friends. It's now evolved into a rather good tune session instead, because that's what suits the environment best. We could have used a small amp and mics and tried to keep the singing going, but I think it's much better the way it is.

Graham.

Subject: RE: Musician Rudeness
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 16 May 08 - 02:51 PM

Hope the singers managed to find something else Grab.

The ones I go to are tune sessions. One of the venues does have a couple of mixed song/tune very informal club/singaround nights and I believe they work well. I don't think a casual singaround would work in the other. Apart from possible noise problems, it's a big barn (well it's called The Shed) of a room.

Subject: RE: Musician Rudeness
From: My guru always said
Date: 16 May 08 - 03:24 PM

I go to listen to the performers and think that to talk whilst someone else is performing is the height of bad manners - I've had accusations of being unfriendly because I won't join in conversations when someone is singing.

I'm with you Jacqui, I'm sure I'm getting a reputation for trying to stop people talking to me through performances! Mind you, there are times when I'm sure I've been a culprit myself....

Subject: RE: Musician Rudeness
From: PoppaGator
Date: 16 May 08 - 04:29 PM

I try very hard to avoid conversation during music mostly for my own sake, and only secondarily out of respect/sympathy for the performers.

Not only do I prefer to listen to the music without interruption, I am really only able to hear the music. Whether it's because of old age, or the cumulative effect of countless evenings in live-music venues, or whatever, I can't hear a word anyone tries to say to me when even moderately loud music is being played. And I certainly don't intend to make any extra effort to participate in conversations that I do not wish to prolong!

My personal experience is that most people, most of the time, behave fairly appropriately in regard to maintaining a level of decorum in the face of musical performance. Of course, I live in a town where MOST music venues are NOT "folk," the music is generally pretty loud (jazz played by multiple horns and drums or blues/rock/pop on electric guitars/bass and drums), and crowds are not expected to maintain respectful silence.

However, at the few venues where quiet attentive listening is the norm ~ not only for folk/acoustic music, for serious jazz, too ~ the audience is generally well-behaved, if only because they're interested in getting their money's worth.

I'm a little surprised and dismayed to learn that audience rudeness, and fellow-musician rudeness, seems to be such a common problem in the UK. Holding sessions and singarounds, etc., in public houses where there is no admission charge might explain noisy audiences, but there's no reasonable explanation, and no excuse, for players making life miserable for each other...

Subject: RE: Musician Rudeness
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 16 May 08 - 04:41 PM

We played at a coffee house folk club in Phoenix Arizona 10 years or so ago, and there was absolute silence during performances.

Subject: RE: Musician Rudeness
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 16 May 08 - 04:43 PM

I've played to small audiences too :)

G

(Some people will say, 'Not surprised')

Subject: RE: Musician Rudeness
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 16 May 08 - 04:54 PM

It depends on the situation, Poppagater. Some need/should have hush but in the instrumental sessions, I'm not usually bothered. To be honest I like the situation where people can come in and have a chat, may or may not be listening to the music and we are playing amongst ourselves more than performing. It's a nice relaxing environment.

That said, there can be limits on noise and I think problems I can have trying to play are usually:

1. Chat close to where your playing. Most commonly that is from the participants themselves and I think a number of us do chat a little once in a while at some point while others are playing (but not while singing). I know, I for one have accidentally have got a bit louder than I thought I was... but (at least with most people) a look from another musician is all that's needed.

2. A very noisy room. eg. Sometimes, for whatever reason, everyone seems to be shouting rather than talking normally...

Subject: RE: Musician Rudeness
From: TheSnail
Date: 16 May 08 - 05:24 PM

PoppaGator

I'm a little surprised and dismayed to learn that audience rudeness, and fellow-musician rudeness, seems to be such a common problem in the UK.

Is it? Bad behaviour tends to stand out in the mind but is it really that widespread? Remember that Alan was talking about folk clubs not sessions. At the folk clubs I go to, people are generally pretty well behaved.

Subject: RE: Musician Rudeness
From: Alan Day
Date: 16 May 08 - 05:52 PM

You are right Snail it does stand out and is probably not widespread as you say ,but when it spoils a good evening,you remember it.
Do you notice the amount of audience movement during performances in Marquees at Festivals whilst the artist is performing?
One of the lessons I have learned is not to look at the audience whilst performing on stage,it has been to my cost in the past.A yawn when your telling a monologue,someone in the front row reading a paper (The Festival Organiser),Someone getting up.or arriving half way through a number.I expect you have all been there.
Al

Subject: RE: Musician Rudeness
From: The Sandman
Date: 16 May 08 - 06:04 PM

From: TheSnail - PM
Date: 16 May 08 - 05:24 PM

PoppaGator

I'm a little surprised and dismayed to learn that audience rudeness, and fellow-musician rudeness, seems to be such a common problem in the UK.

Is it? Bad behaviour tends to stand out in the mind but is it really that widespread? Remember that Alan was talking about folk clubs not sessions. At the folk clubs I go to, people are generally pretty well behaved.

I recently heard about a Sussex poet who had to be ejected for making stupid comments[while a performer was singing] about Scarborough Fair, I also remember having a set of mine disrupted by drunks[25 years ago] at a festival, the MC who was ineffectual[If my memory serves me right it was Robin Garside]did nothing.
Isolated incidents,but to those concerned pretty upsetting.Dick Miles.

Subject: RE: Musician Rudeness
From: The Sandman
Date: 16 May 08 - 06:11 PM

then there are MCS,that give crap/or nothing introductions.
it is the MCs job,to give every performer a good introduction,whether they like the performer or not,it is particularly galling,when it is a fellow professional performer,[who should know better].
the problem is so many people are egotistical and cant envisage how they might react to their own selfish insensitive actions.

Subject: RE: Musician Rudeness
From: TheSnail
Date: 16 May 08 - 06:19 PM

Captain Birdseye

I also remember having a set of mine disrupted by drunks[25 years ago] at a festival

So it's not such a new phenomeon.

Isolated incidents,but to those concerned pretty upsetting.

Just so, not the behaviour of an entire generation as some people on this thread seem to think.

Subject: RE: Musician Rudeness
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 17 May 08 - 06:30 AM

may or may not be listening to the music and we are playing amongst ourselves more than performing. It's a nice relaxing environment.

Less so if you're a solo performer singing unaccompanied!

Subject: RE: Musician Rudeness
From: The Sandman
Date: 17 May 08 - 06:52 AM

Jim Carroll.
the streaker was a woman.
.

Subject: RE: Musician Rudeness
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 17 May 08 - 07:05 AM

Less so if you're a solo performer singing unaccompanied!

Of course but at least in the session environment, I think most musicians will follow the ettiquitte of hush for the singer and in some, eg. a separate room, circumstances it might be possible to shush others for the song...

So many different set ups, suiting different people, having different rules/etiquette aren't there?

Subject: RE: Musician Rudeness
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 17 May 08 - 10:33 AM

Some interactive interpolations become part of a participative performance.

The harmony/countermelody line on the end of the chorus:

CH: ... round and round INT: round and round, round and round

CH: ...for a whale INT: for a whale, for a whale, for a bleeding great big whale


John Barden "... smiles on my countenance, and sits on my knee"
Saboteur "or the other way round"


And so on. But that's just good clean fun.

Subject: RE: Musician Rudeness
From: Harmonium Hero
Date: 17 May 08 - 03:19 PM

There's a simple distinction to be made between a session and a folk club. The session is an informal - possibly impromptu - gathering, normally in a public room, of people playing 'for the craic'. Other people have gone there to drink and socialise, often not knowing that there would be such a session in progress. In these circumstances, I don't think most of the musicians would expect silence. If they do, they can always find a quieter venue, or a quieter night. A folk club is normally in a private room. People pay to get in, and it is reasonable to expect that they have gone there to listen to the music. The person singing has, presumably, spent a certain amount of their time learning and arranging their material, and practicing it to an acceptable standard to present to a paying audience. The standard will, of course, vary; one would expect a professional to have done a lot more 'homework' than the amateur floor singer. But, whatever the status of the performer, people should respect their efforts, and one would expect musicians, in particular, to do so. Talking over the music is arrogant, and disrespectful, not only to the singer/musician, but to the whole audience.
And I don't know who Snail was referring to in his last post, but I, for one, am not blaming any particular generation. My earlier contention was that there has been a general decline in standards of behaviour in (English) society.
John Kelly.

Subject: RE: Musician Rudeness
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 17 May 08 - 03:43 PM

Payment is irrelevant.

Subject: RE: Musician Rudeness
From: Harmonium Hero
Date: 17 May 08 - 03:46 PM

Well, it should be.....
John Kelly.

Subject: RE: Musician Rudeness
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 17 May 08 - 03:55 PM

If a folk club is running in it's own room it has as much rights to expect quiet from the audience if it charges for entry or not. Mind you, I suppose payment for manners would be an interesting concept...

Standards are irrelevant too (although may be of interest in terms of what is considered value for money when door charges are applied - dealt with elsewhere recently). In any case, in my experience, the "entry level" standard at the informal sessions tends to be higher than at an open to all singers night.

Subject: RE: Musician Rudeness
From: Harmonium Hero
Date: 17 May 08 - 05:37 PM

It was always accepted in folk clubs that people were there to listen. It was also accepted that anyone was entitled - depending on time constraints, of course - to a floor spot, and everyone was given the courtesy of silence, whether amateur or professional. The standard WAS irrelevant. If you didn't like a particular floor singer, you could always head for the bar. You'd only lose a few minutes. As regards the value-for-money question, in those days, there was normally a resident group/singer, who was usually either pro or more often semi-pro. So they were able to maintain a certain standard, so that even if one or two floor spots were a bit iffy, the audience still felt that they had had their money's worth during the course of the evening. Compared with, for instance, the cinema, a folk club always was pretty good value for money. If the resident group wasn't up to the mark, however, the punters would find a better club, and the dodgy one wouln't last very long. Thus natural selection maintained the general standard.
Somebody back there said they blamed TV. Not sure whether this was meant to be serious or not, but in fact it has some relevance. Because people are used to entertainment via TV, video and now t'internet, some of them have lost track of how live entertainment works: that you've got real people actually performing in the room, to a real audience. And that if you talk, it can really be heard by the performers and the audience, and is distracting and ill-mannered.
John Kelly.

Subject: RE: Musician Rudeness
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 17 May 08 - 05:47 PM

Your making it sound as if I'm living a bit in the past there, John!

Subject: RE: Musician Rudeness
From: TheSnail
Date: 17 May 08 - 05:50 PM

Harmonium Hero

And I don't know who Snail was referring to in his last post, but I, for one, am not blaming any particular generation. My earlier contention was that there has been a general decline in standards of behaviour in (English) society.

Don't take me too seriously John, it's just that building a case about the general decline of society from a few cases of bad behaviour, which several on this thread have done, has probably been going on since our ancestors were roaming the plains of East Africa 200,000 years ago.

Subject: RE: Musician Rudeness
From: Alan Day
Date: 17 May 08 - 06:04 PM

I agree John,it is also what I would expect.Also if a person chose to get up on stage with amplification or not there was never any noise for either.If you went for a drink you would wait outside the room quietly until the performance was over or the end of a tune or song and then go in.I can remember a dozen or so people waiting outside the closed door for this moment.The person taking the money would supervise this and actually open the door at the correct time.There was never anyone crashing about with their guitar,jumping up in the middle of a song.If talking was done it was a quiet whisper.
I expect I am setting myself up for a bit of banter the next time I go to a folk club ,but even if this strikes home to a few noisy folkies out there then this is worthwhile.
Al

Subject: RE: Musician Rudeness
From: Harmonium Hero
Date: 17 May 08 - 06:16 PM

Jon: Living in the past? I thought that was me! I live in hopes that we might yet return to it - in a selective sort of way, of course. You know - keep the bits that worked, instead of chucking the whole thing away and replacing it with something worse, as we seem determined to do. Makes sense to me, anyway. John Kelly.

Subject: RE: Musician Rudeness
From: Harmonium Hero
Date: 17 May 08 - 06:18 PM

138 posts and no blood spilled. Aren't we behaving in a polite and restarined manner?
JK

Subject: RE: Musician Rudeness
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 18 May 08 - 04:19 AM

You cannot however simultaneously expect the next floor singer to stay in his seat, be outside the door, have his instrument tuned, and be ready to go on.

Subject: RE: Musician Rudeness
From: eddie1
Date: 18 May 08 - 05:50 AM

I always admired the late Iain McKintosh - not just for his singing and musicianship but for his ability to handle an unruly audience. Normally this was done by playing and singing ever quiter until the offender stopped by themselves or was "SHHHUUUSSSHED" into silence by the rest.
He did however tell the story against himself about the very vocal young lady who just would not shut up until he finally made some appropriate comment about her. During the interval he made a point of seeking her out and apologising for embarrassing her when he was on the stage. "Oh," she retorted, "Were you on the stage?"!

Eddie

Subject: RE: Musician Rudeness
From: Alan Day
Date: 18 May 08 - 10:31 AM

A similar story Eddie was the group who did their first half slot and was approached by a member of the audience."What type of music was that? " She asked. Thinking that she was genuinly interested he explained the history of the music etc
She replied
"Well it was bloody awful".
Al

Subject: RE: Musician Rudeness
From: trevek
Date: 18 May 08 - 10:45 AM

I think it was in Shrewsbury where I once saw a guy start to sing and somebody dared to whisper to someone else. he stopped and asked what the conversation was about and then refused to sing if people were going to talk.

Considering it was impossible to hear them I did think this was a bit much on his part. If he'd kept his eyes shut and his finger in his ear he'd have never noticed.

Subject: RE: Musician Rudeness
From: GUEST,jazzy
Date: 18 May 08 - 06:48 PM

Another thing I've noticed at some open mic nights I've attended is the people who turn up, and then promptly leave as soon as they've sung their song/played their tune.

Now I'm sure in some cases there are mitigating circumstances for this - they have a babysitter to get back for, an early start the next day at work, a sudden attack of performance induced incontinence - but generally speaking, my view would be that if you want to get up and play and expect people to listen to you, the least you could do is extend that courtesy to the other musicians, if only for a little while?

There's a wonderful little song called "Thou Shalt Always Kill" by DJ Dans Le Sac and poet Scroobius Pip which has a great line about just such a practice (it's a little blue so I won't repeat it here, but feel free to google for the lyrics). The song itself won't be to everyone's taste as it's an electronic beat with spoken word over the top, but there's some lovely commentary on the contemporary music scene and life in general (I've included a brief extract for your reading pleasure below):

"Thou shalt not steal if there is direct victim.
Thou shalt not worship pop idols or follow lost prophets.
Thou shalt not take the names of Johnny Cash, Joe Strummer, Johnny Hartman, Desmond Decker, Jim Morrison, Jimi Hendrix or Syd Barrett in vain.
Thou shalt not think any male over the age of 30 that plays with a child that is not their own is a paedophile - Some people are just nice. "

Some interesting discuession in this thread, just wanted to add my 2p!

Chris

Subject: RE: Musician Rudeness
From: Alan Day
Date: 19 May 08 - 03:32 AM

It may be Chris that they got so annoyed with the attitude of a few other performers and a noisy audience that they realised that the club was not for them.
Al

Subject: RE: Musician Rudeness
From: GUEST,jazzy
Date: 19 May 08 - 05:57 AM

Hi Al - sorry, please don't take my post to be a direct dig at yourself (or anyone else) personally, it's just a general observation I've made from attending a variety of open mics.

Re. Our club in particular: Some of our regulars are a rowdy bunch - but rest assured they do appreciate everything that performers do, else I'm sure they wouldn't applaud with such vigour or continue to turn up every week!

I do take your point that one or two of them need a 'nudge' now and again to remind them that it's very distracting when they tune guitars/chat/rustle crisp packets while people are performing (particularly when it's an individual playing - obviously if there's a group of people playing the noise tolerance is sometimes a little higher!).

I hope it hasn't put you off the F&H permanently, and hope to see you back some point soon. Tonight, rather than the open-mic "Everyone take a turn while everyone else listens" format, we've got a singaround hosted by Tone Deaf Leopard, which should provide some good opportunities for play/sing-alongs!

Cheers

Chris

Subject: RE: Musician Rudeness
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 19 May 08 - 06:10 AM

I don't think I've ever noticed a habit of leaving after doing their spot. Most people, in places I've been tend to stay to the end. I have in the past witnessed related issues though.

Some seem to like to arrive in time for their (perhaps first) spot. Maybe you find there are never many floor singers around when the club stars at 8:30 as they can't make that time. After discussion with all, you decide to start at 9:00pm. The people who couldn't make 8:30 then can't make 9:00.

You may find those who have been away for a few weeks have not realised it's a guest night the time they all happen to by co-incidence turn up on the same night armed with guitars expecting a spot. (And yes you may also observe that some of these are the ones who had ceased to be able to make the later start time...)

Maybe it's just me, but while there may in my experience be pretty good manners overall, I'm not sure I've always witnessed much in the way of interest in trying to support a night and pulling together for the benifit of all.

Subject: RE: Musician Rudeness
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 19 May 08 - 06:52 AM

Then theres pensioners day at B and Q.

The scraps at the checkout between all these old farts who won't wait for each other to be served is far more angry and argumentative than any folk clubs.

By and large, us musicians are not very rude. At least, not to each others faces.

I think theres two aspects really. Namely what you're trying to do and what your background is.

I really admire Noel Murphy. I saw him play one of the best folk club gigs I have ever seen in my life to a tiny audience. the passion to communicate and perform were quite undiminished by the tiny audience - one of which was dim sixteen year old kid (namely me) And may be five other people.

Although I'd seen him other times in between - I saw him about twelve years later as my pro career was taking off. he was doing the guest spot at The Boggery in Solihull, and he was just about getting by. (I wasn't even doing that.) And I know that Les Ward booked him after that - so Les must have been quite pleased - but the noisy audience weren't his cup of tea, and they weren't getting the best from him.


Anyway fast forward a few years and i saw his name in the Irish Times writing an article for that prominent organ. By then there was an Irish theme pb on every street corner and I assumed that he was making a fortune - like every other Irish singer, who had the stomach for that kind of thing.

I wrote him and got this charming letter back. he seemed enchanted that he occupied such a warm place in one of his fan's memories. he said alas no - he found he couldn't work in the noisy audiences of the theme pub. And to be honest I thought that was damnanbly sad. for him and the audiences.

Similarly I started a folk club in a mining village and got Derek Brimstone play a guest spot. the local folk were noisy and ignorant. And it was a shit experience for Derek. i folded the club not long after - I didn't want to run anywhere where Derek couldn't play.

my wife said afterwards, you know if you or Bob Stokes (the Dublin Busker) had been doing that gig - you would simply have brushed that sort of stuff away. cos you both know about noisy audiences and how to work them.

In a way the folk clubs had made Noel and Derek kind of dependent on that very attentive audience.

And I think similarly when people are asking for special consideration for unaccompanied singing and monologues - these things must have worked in noisy music halls and alehouses.

Don't get me wrong - the whole business of performance - like that of teaching, presupposes some basic act and spirit of cooperation. But ask any teacher - no class is a pushover. You must labour mightily to impress your personality as a performer or teacher, sometimes against the odds.

Subject: RE: Musician Rudeness
From: Mr Red
Date: 19 May 08 - 07:59 AM

Does Amplification create the talking and the lack of manners by the audience?


chicken &/or egg?

I think both concepts apply but not necessarilly at the same time.

The fact that the world is getting noisier makes more noise more acceptable in some ears and necessary in others'. And that leads to the rudeness seen on Mudcat threads. Though the rudeboys seem a bit quiet of late. Or using many Guest aliases.

Subject: RE: Musician Rudeness
From: Grab
Date: 19 May 08 - 08:10 AM

Re leaving after your set, my rock band had a particular case of that the other day. We ended up closing the night after the headline band's drummer broke his arm, and three other bands were drafted in to play before us. Trouble is that two of the bands were all under-18s, so they and their parents stayed until about 10pm and then left before we started, which didn't leave a whole lot of audience behind for us. :-/

I think it's less common in singarounds or open-mics, because people have usually come for the entire evening. Still happens, but less often. Sometimes people will stay outside the main "circle" (or however the place is arranged) and chat at the bar, then come in for their go, then head back to the bar again. Doesn't always mean they're not listening.

Chris, that poem/beat thing is fun - thanks for the reference. (Vid and music are on Youtube, for anyone who wants to look/listen.)

Graham.

Subject: RE: Musician Rudeness
From: Alan Day
Date: 19 May 08 - 10:29 AM

Chris I made a point of not mentioning the places where I attended,but now you have I must say that my annoyance was not anything to do with my performance on stage, but more directed to the poor chap who was on before me.Any Folk Club would have loved the spot he did,he sang well he was funny, but most missed his jokes.He struggled to be heard and was upset when he got back to his seat.I can look after myself ,but I would not be surprised if that artist ever performed again.
I had no problems with yourself as I have said ,you played and sang excellently,you were polite and enthusiastic and I applaud you for hosting your club.My early leaving was not due to you or your members I suddenly realised I promised to see someone at another place.
I will attend again with your permission.
Al

Subject: RE: Musician Rudeness
From: GUEST,jazzy
Date: 19 May 08 - 10:56 AM

Alan - I did feel for chap who played before you (and indeed, Rob - the guy who played after you, who has a lovely voice but v quiet) as both were excellent and most enjoyable - and both did struggle with the background noise. I did make a point to speak to both and let them know how much I enjoyed what they did - I hope the appreciation of most will make up for the lack of consideration from a few!

Thanks for your kind words - I enjoyed your tunes, it's not often we have a concertina player joining us at the club. Look forward to welcoming you back to the F&H whenever you fancy dropping in for a play.

Graham - Glad you like the Scroobius Pip/Dans Le Sac poem/tune!

Chris

Subject: RE: Musician Rudeness
From: GUEST,John from Kemsing
Date: 19 May 08 - 10:59 AM

This thread as, the title indicates, started as a item concerning the rudeness of musicians no doubt towards their audience or those responsible for engaging them. It did not take long for the thread to change and concern itself with the old chestnut of audience rudeness which has been covered in depth previously. May we return to the original discussion, tales of errant stars are so much more juicy.

Subject: RE: Musician Rudeness
From: GUEST,Rudeboy
Date: 19 May 08 - 11:07 AM

God, I miss you when you're not there Redboy. Should I start another thread: Rudeboy v Redboy.

Thanks for all the fun, I'd miss it if you stopped. Keep up the good work. Some of your comments are just so strange and comical and some of them are beyond understanding, do you suffer with dyslexia? I wonder if anyone understands them when they are out of context. Anyway, it's good to know I'm never out of your mind. Obsession seems to play a big part in your life. But you have to admit my threads do stimulate interesting debate.

All the Best

Rudeboy

Subject: RE: Musician Rudeness
From: Acorn4
Date: 19 May 08 - 11:21 AM

I wonder - could there be any connection or correlation between being one of those musicians that are rude and have no consideration, and being a poser?

Subject: RE: Musician Rudeness
From: Alan Day
Date: 19 May 08 - 11:55 AM

Hallo John from Kemsing, sadly it is you that is changing the thread.
Have another read of my introduction and you will find it relates to other musicians creating noise whilst another performer is on stage.
Thats about as juicy as it gets.
I will try and think another one up that is more exciting for you.
Al

Subject: RE: Musician Rudeness
From: GUEST
Date: 12 May 17 - 12:08 PM

these things don't happen any more

Subject: RE: Musician Rudeness
From: GUEST,Pete from seven stars link
Date: 12 May 17 - 03:30 PM

If only .....but I'm glad to say that in my local sing around most are respectfully quiet for each other

Subject: RE: Musician Rudeness
From: GUEST,pfr on his smart telly
Date: 12 May 17 - 10:02 PM

if rude is the natural default state of humanity...

why have such higher expectations of musicians....????????