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BS: The Reincarnation Game
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Subject: BS: The Reincarnation Game From: Amos Date: 25 Jun 08 - 12:57 AM
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Subject: RE: BS: The Reincarnation Game From: gnu Date: 25 Jun 08 - 06:32 AM Yeah, I konw, but I'll say it agaim... I will be coming back next time as an alcoholic woodpecker. |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Reincarnation Game From: Paul Burke Date: 25 Jun 08 - 06:40 AM It's no good being an alcoholic woodpecker- far too sweet. You should be an alcoholic scrumpy. All Amos's references remind me that more can be less. |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Reincarnation Game From: Naemanson Date: 25 Jun 08 - 06:59 AM Amos! Here I thought you were a skeptic. |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Reincarnation Game From: bobad Date: 25 Jun 08 - 07:58 AM Some of my atoms and molecules were possibly involved in past lives, but they ain't talking. |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Reincarnation Game From: Paul Burke Date: 25 Jun 08 - 08:23 AM It's demonstrable that there's a high probability that some of the atoms you breathe were once breathed by Julius Caesar, Mohammed, Gautama, Jesus (if that good man existed), Moses or Genghis Khan. I don't know if anyone has worked out the probability of any atom being breathed by ALL of them. |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Reincarnation Game From: bankley Date: 25 Jun 08 - 08:28 AM All at the same time ? hmmm |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Reincarnation Game From: Amos Date: 25 Jun 08 - 10:08 AM SIgh. Fall back on your particle-based clay-footed atomisms, oh ye darkened ones. LOL! The thing is every time subjects like this come up, someone comes along and says there is no evidence yadda yadda. So I thought it might be nicve to have a starting point for pointing out how much evidence, in sheer quantity, there is. Arguably it all has to be discounted, though, because it isn't laboratory evidence, and, hey, how ya gonna replicate reincarnation? So that kinda proves it, by that standard, anyway. Brett: I believe in tempering my skepticism with a good solid dollop of naivete. A |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Reincarnation Game From: Stilly River Sage Date: 25 Jun 08 - 10:35 AM Radiolab had a program, I'm fairly certain, that had to do with molecules and how many you might encounter in a breath of air that someone ancient and famous exhaled. If it wasn't Radiolab it was probably Robert Krulwich. SRS |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Reincarnation Game From: Amos Date: 25 Jun 08 - 10:40 AM Twenty-six recommended titles on "reincarnation research". Christopher Bache writes one. Brad Steiger's collected case histories. A paper by Rabbi Gershom including links to two of his books on the subject. Beyond the Ashes is the now-classic account of Reb Yonassan Gershom's personal encounters with hundreds of people from all walks of life, who have shared their memories of visions, dreams, and flashbacks that seem to becoming from another life during the Nazi Holocaust. In addition to these amazing true stories, Reb Gershom presents Jewish teachings about karmic cycles, the levels of the soul, views of the afterlife and reincarnation in Judaism, as seen in the light of traditional Jewish texts and modern discoveries. From Ashes to Healing is Reb Gershom's second book, and the companion to Beyond the Ashes. More than just a sequel, From Ashes to Healingcompletes the saga begun in the first book by presenting us with fifteen gripping testimonies of people who have found extraordinary healing through past-life memories, visions, and dreams with Holocaust themes. Some interesting anecdotal extracts from several books. |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Reincarnation Game From: Little Hawk Date: 25 Jun 08 - 10:50 AM People love saying that there's "no evidence" for stuff they don't want to believe in in the first place. And they confirm it for themselves by completely avoiding all the available evidence or else refusing to allot any time to studying it or giving it serious and unbiased consideration... ;-) Thus is their chosen form of ignorance constantly re-affirmed to their own satisfaction. I don't think life EVER ends...it just changes its outer form or manifestation, that's all. And then it moves on. I would certainly enjoy having a young body again. On the other hand, I'd also enjoy not having to worry about having a physical body (that ages) at all...and just being a free spirit. Well, I'll see when I get there. |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Reincarnation Game From: Paul Burke Date: 25 Jun 08 - 10:54 AM Different vision of the Universe(s), Amos. It's natural for the human mind to be unwilling to conceive that it could be simply extinguished- where does all that thought, love, feeling, creativity go? So people naturally gravitate towards ideas that say, hey, you might have been born on December 1 1956 or whatever, but having started you'll go on forever, even if you appear to die on June 12 2029. Sorry, I see it as childish, greedy and dangerous. Childish because it is wishful thinking, greedy because it craves personal immortality, and dangerous because people have fought wars over the precise details of how you get a good billet after death, and continue to do so. Notions of reincarnation are not neutral - they have led to indifference to the lot of the poor and disadvantaged (because they deserve it from last time- viz Glen Hoddle), and refusal to engage with injustice because what is one lifetime's suffering compared to eternity? So I'll stick to my atomism, and the idea that the world is at the level that hurts or pleasures us well reflected by what we see, and that social justice is something that people need to do to each other because that's the way we can all be most comfortable. We don't need fairies or ghosts. |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Reincarnation Game From: Amos Date: 25 Jun 08 - 11:07 AM Notions of reincarnation have also led to a depth of kindness and tolerance of others in many instances, Paul. Not to mention recovery from neuroses of variosu sorts that have been resolved by the "discovery" of prior incarnations. As for immortality, there's no greed involved at all. Existence is not a zero-sum game. There are lots of different opinions about what occurs and how in the passage from live to death. THe argument of reincarnation may or may not include the mechanisms known as "karma". Some cultures believe in reincarnation without any inheritance from prior lives. The big question is two-fold. One is what subjective changes it may bring about in an individual to find mental impressions correlating to past existences, and whether or not that resolves emotional or somatic issues for him. her. The other is whether there are any cases, or even many cases, of discovered past identities leading to evidence that could not have been discovered otherwise. There are many anecdotal recitations that appear to fill this definition, but life is messy and not rigorous in its logic the way good laboratory experiments are supposed to be. But I am certainly not trying to persuade anyone to change their beliefs. I just thoguht a collection of reference and viewpoints might be of interest. A |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Reincarnation Game From: katlaughing Date: 25 Jun 08 - 11:22 AM Same old Mudcat...no free discussion if it doesn't meet lab standards. |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Reincarnation Game From: Little Hawk Date: 25 Jun 08 - 11:26 AM Like I said, Paul, I'll see when I get there. ;-) The opinions of others about such matters don't worry me, and neither should mine worry them. |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Reincarnation Game From: Paul Burke Date: 25 Jun 08 - 11:40 AM Not to mention recovery from neuroses of variosu sorts that have been resolved by the "discovery" of prior incarnations. Or the replacement of one neurosis by another (hopefully less damaging). The argument appears to be "it does some good so it must be true". Calx saccharis 250mg is commonly prescribed for pendulum plumbitis. Some cultures believe in reincarnation without any inheritance from prior lives. If there's "no inheritance" in what sense is it reincarnation? There has to be some way of telling that the "spirit" previously inhabited another body? As for immortality, there's no greed involved at all. That depends on what you have to do to get the immortality. St. Cyril had Hypatia scraped to death with scallop shells to book his place in paradise. Others incinerate busloads of kids, still others hate homosexuals to get to heaven via Jerusalem. Note that I'm NOT making the opposite argument: that it's bad so it must be false. What I'm saying is that such beliefs are not warm fuzzy love-the-universe harmless conceits- they have real consequences for real people. Hence the need for good solid evidence before anyone acts on them. And the idea that a Malaysian boy doesn't like spicy food, so he must have been a Japanese soldier in a previous life, somehow doesn't convince. |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Reincarnation Game From: Little Hawk Date: 25 Jun 08 - 11:47 AM Paul, if I thought that I would simply cease existing at death as a consciousness...and just vanish...hey, that would be great! That would be just like falling asleep, and I love falling asleep. It's a delicious possibility to contemplate, I assure you. It would mean no further difficulties of any sort to deal with. And I do see that as a possibility...among various possibilities. I don't see it as the most likely one based on what I've experienced in this life so far, but it is a possibility that I'm open to. Like I said, I'll see when I get there. |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Reincarnation Game From: Paul Burke Date: 25 Jun 08 - 12:23 PM if I thought that I would simply cease existing at death as a consciousness...and just vanish I doubt if it's that simple. Death is no problem, it's getting there that hurts, and I can imagine that a failing mind could produce some very unpleasant fancies (which will of course be culturally inspired). I hope I'm somewhere else when the time comes, fast asleep will do. But I take a little comfort from the fact that a former friend, Dave, (who is still "alive" and "awake") appears to have no bad dreams as well as no identifiable thoughts, and that Louis Viljoen, who awoke from a persistent vegetative state, told his parents that he had experienced nothing, despite apparent movements as though he was dreaming. Sadly, Zolpidem didn't work for Dave. |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Reincarnation Game From: Little Hawk Date: 25 Jun 08 - 01:03 PM Darn right it's getting there that hurts! That's the whole problem with death as we know it. At least, that's the whole problem as far as I'm concerned. Some may fear the cessation of their being. I do not, because if my being ceased I wouldn't even know about it. Therefore it is nothing to fear. |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Reincarnation Game From: Amos Date: 25 Jun 08 - 01:17 PM As Woody Allen put it -- I am not afraid of dying--I just don't want to be there when it happens. I think to a very large degree the attitude you will take toward this collection of beliefs and indications of experience will depend on how you identify yourself. Some people are so attached to their vehicles they identify with them. Some folks feel the same way about their bodies. Some see themselves as an awareness center which is not identical tot he meatware. If you honestly think of yourself as meat, then of course the notion of surviving across the lifetime boundary is absurd. A |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Reincarnation Game From: Little Hawk Date: 25 Jun 08 - 01:24 PM Even perhaps more than their bodies, Amos, I think that people identify with their own mindset...all their old established opinions, beliefs, assumptions, habits, and prejudices. This is why most people immediately and instinctively attack and contend with any viewpoint that differs from their own. They subconsciously regard it as a direct threat to their own identity. If they were simply to admit one thing..."I don't know for sure"...it would go a long way toward making them much more reasonable and less inclined to attack other's beliefs. |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Reincarnation Game From: Amos Date: 25 Jun 08 - 01:59 PM Well, it's an onion sorta thing, in my view. Protoplasm is a powerful magnet. Fixed ideas are as well. Between these two highly charged zones, it's a wonder anyone ever gets out. A |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Reincarnation Game From: Little Hawk Date: 25 Jun 08 - 03:45 PM Yeah. ;-) |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Reincarnation Game From: katlaughing Date: 25 Jun 08 - 04:28 PM It's still to bad, imo, that we who do have some belief cannot discuss it among friends without being ridiculed. It's a sorry state when that happens...in 3D one would hope they'd just drift away to another conversation if they weren't interested. It is bullying and unkind to point fingers of derision, etc. Oh, but why have a meaningful conversation when things can be so trivialised and threads on innocuous things can go on forever? Bah, humbug! katwhomust'vebeenScroogeinapastlife! |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Reincarnation Game From: Little Hawk Date: 25 Jun 08 - 04:41 PM Well, in 3D life one isn't standing on a street corner with a speaker that broadcasts everything one is saying to the hundreds of people idly passing by... You can imagine what that would be like. It would attract a good deal of unwanted attention. Well, that's what the Internet is like. |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Reincarnation Game From: Bill D Date: 25 Jun 08 - 04:48 PM Bet you can't guess how *I* might approach this topic. ☺ |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Reincarnation Game From: Ebbie Date: 25 Jun 08 - 05:41 PM No. Please tell us, Bill. :) On second thought, I can wait until you get some experiences under your belt, so to speak. :) |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Reincarnation Game From: Little Hawk Date: 25 Jun 08 - 07:05 PM What's the word on the street, Bobert? ;-) Will that dog hunt? |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Reincarnation Game From: Amos Date: 25 Jun 08 - 08:18 PM Bill: You don't fool me. You come on like a pure-dee meathead, doing all the bows and cutrseys required by the Protocols of Solidity, and deep inside you are winking and blinking just waiting for out-of-body experiences, alien visitations, and guiding spirits armed with Tarot cards to come walking through your dreams informing you that your tour of duty has been completed, and you can stop pretending now. A |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Reincarnation Game From: Naemanson Date: 25 Jun 08 - 08:54 PM "Brett: I believe in tempering my skepticism with a good solid dollop of naivete." That's a definition of a good skeptic. A good skeptic doesn't reject out of hand. A good skeptic wants to believe it's true but needs proof based on solid scientific evidence. I sent your list off to the James Randi Educational Foundation. If you don't know who James Randi is then you are in for a very agreeable education. Check out www.randi.org. I also suggest www.skepticality.com and www.badastronomy.com. These are all good skeptical websites. There are many more but I haven't had time to review them. Here in the USA non-theists make up 10% of the population. There is one organization that is trying to get people in Congress to make a statement on their actual belief or non-belief. The highest elected official who is a non-theist is Representative Pete Stark (D) CA. Pete Stark has been a member of Congress since 1973. For those who aren't interested in the skeptical discussion you might still be interested in Phil Plait's site at www.badastronomy.com. He dissects the science in movies and TV programs. |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Reincarnation Game From: Ebbie Date: 25 Jun 08 - 09:07 PM "The highest elected official who is a non-theist is Representative Pete Stark (D) CA." Naemanson You would probably agree with adding that so far as is known the "highest elected official who is a non-theist..." There are many, many people out there who would not volunteer their private beliefs. (Isn't it funny that 'belief' is used for both those who 'believe' and those who don't. Kind of like 'ravel' and 'unravel'.) |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Reincarnation Game From: Amos Date: 25 Jun 08 - 10:30 PM Jeeze, Brett, I outgrew Randi about twenty years ago, when I spent a summer living in Ingo Swann's loft down on First Avenue, New Yawk. I looked over Randi's stuff and found it not pleasant but grimly determined, antagonistic, and materialistic. I hold him in high esteem for debunking some things which should be debunked, I suppose. But he is one of these people who believes deeply in the atomistic explanation of life, which I find is almost as blindly limiting as the pre-Copernican model of the universe. It's not that he isn't intelligent, either. Here's the loop where he gets out of whack, though. Material repetition is the mechanism of choice all through the scientific world for satisfying the standards of evidentiary proof. The idea of replicability outside the framework of mechanistic repetition is anathema to him. As such, he has no window through which to examine any claims concerning spiritual knowledge whether those claims are loonybird or simply enlightened. He couldn't tell the difference, except in that small region where impingement on physical systems (spoon-bending and remote healing) come into play--and even there he seems unwilling to allow for any impingement by the measuring viewpoint on the ambience of the experiment in spite of quantum physics' assertions of its existence. So as far as I am concerned the man is not qualified to make half the judgments he is more than willing to make. Ah, well, neither am I, I suppose.... A |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Reincarnation Game From: Paul Burke Date: 26 Jun 08 - 03:14 AM Congratulate yourselves on your "open mindedness" if you want, but your rather Manichaean distaste for the "meat" that is your body is perhaps revealing- that you want a "pure" spirit that isn't contaminated by contact with the real world. You ought to ask yourselves, if this spirit can exist without the disgusting meat wrapper, why does it bother to keep acquiring one? There once was a man who saw the world as a cellar with bones on the floor, Slime on the ceiling, grime on the door And a stench of corruption like a running sore- |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Reincarnation Game From: Naemanson Date: 26 Jun 08 - 07:15 AM Gee, Amos, that doesn't sound like the Randi I've been listening to. Then again, with the JREF he may have lightened up a bit. Besides, what's wrong with findings that can be replicated inside a framework? If they can be done in the lab then they can be done anywhere. If the spiritual/psychic activity cannot be done under strict limitations then one would have to ask if it is real or imagined. Note: You'll notice I don't use a lot of $5 words. It's not that I am avoiding them. It's just that I don't know any... *Grin* |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Reincarnation Game From: Paul Burke Date: 26 Jun 08 - 07:25 AM For some reason the Cat seems to have lost the rest of Leon Rosselson's song: There once was a man who saw The world as a cellar with bones on the floor, Slime on the ceiling, grime on the door And a stench of corruption like a running sore- He was a good man, he was a saint, He was a good man, he was a saint. On that door, a sign that said, He who enters here must die, And on the other side it read- You can buy anything here with a lie. He was a good man, he was a saint, He was a good man, he was a saint. What an evil place, the young man cried, Where are the flowers I used to see? Where is a place that I can hide? Where is the love that they promised me? He was a good man, he was a saint, He was a good man, he was a saint. So the young man said, I will fight alone, I will keep myself pure, I will never give in, To touch anything would be to condone, To touch anything would be a sin. He was a good man, he was a saint, He was a good man, he was a saint. Uncontaminated, he Shone like silver on a heap of dung, He was a beacon of purity- He was a saint- and he died very young. He was a good man, he was a saint, He was a good man, he was a saint. |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Reincarnation Game From: GUEST,LTS pretending to work Date: 26 Jun 08 - 07:30 AM A friend of mine was once terrified by her 4 year old daughter out of the blue, looking up at her and saying 'you weren't my mummy when I was here last.' She took weeks to recover from that! LTS |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Reincarnation Game From: Amos Date: 26 Jun 08 - 10:22 AM Paul: PLease do not put words in my mouth, especially dumb ones. I have no distaste for living with bodies and enjoy using mine a lot. I don't think it should be addictive, to the point of losing awarenesss of other aspects of being. Your argument is something like accusing someone of being obsessively opposed to asutomobiles just because he also enjoys walking. Brett: Aw, not to be unfair I haven't dropped in on Randi's stuff for many years. The problem is not replicability as such. It replicability by mechanical rules. Just for example, measuring processes with standard units of time is perfectly normal in phhysical experiments. Same conditions, same timing. Works for electrons, atoms, molecules and cannonballs. In the world of thought, however, time is an arbitrary, possibly based on a falsehod, and in any case is a wild variable because considerations rule the phenomenology. In physics labs, the mechanisms rule the considerations. Duration and sequence is mandatory. Look how much trouble they have just trying to come to terms with the unpredictability of quanta, or even electrons in the classic slit experiments. In classic physics experiments thought (in the form of scientists) watches matter behave, and rules the conditions of the experiment. To try that with spiritual "stuff" will end up with your experiment laughing at you. No self-respecting scientist will stand to be laughed at by his experiment! :) IMHO it is really meretricious and counterproductive, for example, to say that a spiritual phenomenon like prescience cannot be valid, because it cannot operate in a planned, mapped environment operating against something like red dots on cards in which no spirit in his right mind would have any interest. |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Reincarnation Game From: Bee-dubya-ell Date: 26 Jun 08 - 11:00 AM WARNING! THE FOLLOWING IS ENTIRELY SPECULATIVE. THERE IS ABSOLUTELY NO EMPIRICAL EVIDENCE TO SUPPORT ANY OF WHAT YOU ARE ABOUT TO READ. IF YOU ARE OF THE ILK THAT REQUIRES EMPIRICAL EVIDENCE, PLEASE GO ON TO THE NEXT POST. THERE'S NOTHING FOR YOU TO SEE HERE. MOVE ALONG, MOVE ALONG.... I do not believe in reincarnation. I believe in incarnation. I've never been comfortable with the idea that a person is somehow the manifestation of some other person who lived previously. But my grounds for objection are not the same as those of the atomist. To me, the idea that a "life" or some essence thereof is passed directly from one human to another is too narrow of a viewpoint. It's insufficiently holistic. My take on the subject can best be illustrated metaphorically: Imagine that, deep within our psyches, each of us contains something akin to a harp with a huge number of strings, all tuned to different pitches. Each of those strings represents a life that has been lived in the past by someone or some creature. Ordinarily, we aren't aware of the existence of this huge number of strings because they just sit there and do nothing. But occasionally some force causes one of those strings to vibrate and we become aware of it. When that happens, the person experiencing the vibration is apt to interpret it as a "previous life". Well, he'd be correct in a way, but only to the extent that he's been made aware of one previous life out of the millions that are actually part of his psychic endowment. He's experiencing the vibration of one string, but he's still unaware of the harp. |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Reincarnation Game From: Amos Date: 26 Jun 08 - 11:11 AM Wodda byoodiful meddafor, Mister BeeDub. A |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Reincarnation Game From: Little Hawk Date: 26 Jun 08 - 11:35 AM Paul, you keep making the error of seeing your own psychological problems, hostilities, blind spots, and unpleasant negativities reflected in other people... And so does Leon Rosselson. |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Reincarnation Game From: Wolfgang Date: 26 Jun 08 - 12:04 PM People love saying that there's "no evidence" for stuff they don't want to believe in in the first place. And they confirm it for themselves by completely avoiding all the available evidence or else refusing to allot any time to studying it or giving it serious and unbiased consideration... ;-) Thus is their chosen form of ignorance constantly re-affirmed to their own satisfaction. (Little Hawk) This is your usual entrance sentence to these discussions which I have read at least ten times. Now was once too often. I think it is time to say how little you know about scientists and skeptics. I really pity you, Little Hawk, if that is your approach if you do not want to believe in the first place. You have been missing a humbling, embarrassing but altogether healthy experience in your life: to be forced to change your mind about something by evidence. That's one of the main idea in science: to ask questions in a way that you can be shown to be wrong about something. I have in my life been completely wrong about something major at least three times and I have found out by looking at the evidence. Yes, all three times it was something that meant a lot to me personally (in one case it was even a theory linked to my name among German colleagues). But I was wrong though I would have loved to be right. In the one case, the evidence in a new experiment performed by one of my students was simply not as my (pet) theory on that field said it should be. What you describe is a fine description of the approach of the believer, but not of the skeptic (there might be some, but I despise them). To find out to be completely wrong about something is one of the noblest experiences one can have (though not necessarily in the very moment one finds out, and surely also not in the moment one has to tell the colleagues at the next congress, forget my theory, I was wrong). But these are experiences I would not like to have missed in my life. Sorry for you if it is so different for yourself and you do not approach evidence with an open mind. But please, do not assume that all people are like you. Let me finish with a quote from a very prominent skeptic, Basava Premanand, chairman of the Indian skeptics, who is know for being able to recreate what Indian fakirs and gurus claim to be able due to supernatural forces: At the end of the lengthy discussions we had with Premanand on the mysteries of the East, which no longer appeared as mysteries, there was one more thing that Basava Premanand told us. "You know, I told you I had one desire: to create a research center in India for the investigation of psychic phenomena. Well, to tell you the truth I also have one other wish." "And what is it?" we asked. "It's simple, I'd like to witness a real miracle before dying." I think that could be a wish that many of us would subscribe to... (from Notes on a strange world) These are skeptics to my taste and not the caricature you try to shoot down but only end shooting yourself in the foot. Wolfgang |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Reincarnation Game From: Ebbie Date: 26 Jun 08 - 12:33 PM Bee-dubya-ell (see? I use your full name.:), thank you for a fresh look, another view. I don't think we know much at all- and that's the charm of it. Our view- Wolfgang, Bill D and all those other lovely folks notwithstanding - may be much closer than we like to the perspective of the goldfish in the bowl. |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Reincarnation Game From: Bill D Date: 26 Jun 08 - 12:53 PM Durn, Amos...you have penetrated my darkest secrets! I would claim to be the reincarnation of Martin Gardner, but he ain't dead yet. (there sure are a lot of folks tossing around linguistic constructions and then presuming that this 'naming' conveys some sort of validity or reality to the concepts thus 'described'.) |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Reincarnation Game From: Little Hawk Date: 26 Jun 08 - 12:56 PM Well, I pity you too, Wolfgang, but I'm much too nice and polite a person to ever say so... ;-) (That was a joke. In fact, I do not pity you. But do you get my point?) You don't really know me at all. I probably don't really know you at all either. I certainly wouldn't assume that I do. If we were able to meet in real life and talk at some length over a period of time, with respect, then we might get to know each other. I'm very interested in evidence whenever and wherever I can find it. But it's not my job to prove or disprove the existence of the soul, is it? Nor do I have a laboratory means of doing so. I have changed my mind about numerous things due to coming across evidence of one sort or another. I don't know if there is a soul or if there is reincarnation, I merely think it probable, that's all. I have seen a couple of miracles in my life...certainly not when I expected to...but I can't reproduce them in a lab for you because I wasn't in control of them. Will I describe them for you? No. Not a chance. What would be the point? It wouldn't accomplish anything good, pleasant or useful. I have no interest in exposing certain things that are very precious to me in my own life history to the utterly uncomprehending blank stare of various opinionated people who have no respect for or interest in such things, and who would only use my story as a target for attack. Remember, Wolfgang, as Ali G always says..."Respec'" Respect is the key to good relations. And I respect you. |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Reincarnation Game From: katlaughing Date: 26 Jun 08 - 02:48 PM I have no interest in exposing certain things that are very precious to me in my own life history to the utterly uncomprehending blank stare of various opinionated people who have no respect for or interest in such things, and who would only use my story as a target for attack. My thoughts exactly. Well said, as always, LH. Thank you, Sir. |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Reincarnation Game From: Little Hawk Date: 26 Jun 08 - 03:53 PM You betcha, Kat. Thank you also (just for being who you are). |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Reincarnation Game From: bobad Date: 26 Jun 08 - 04:53 PM I think I'm gonna be sick. |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Reincarnation Game From: katlaughing Date: 26 Jun 08 - 05:07 PM But we're not in-flight yet!:-) |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Reincarnation Game From: Little Hawk Date: 26 Jun 08 - 05:35 PM Oh, goody! Pass the mints. |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Reincarnation Game From: Amos Date: 26 Jun 08 - 07:21 PM What is this, pigs-fly week? I didn't know they served mints. Wolfgang, I have nothing but respect for a person who can abandon a fond conviction in the face of evidence. It is a noble act, of great integrity, to be so true to what you see, that you are willing to let go of something important that you thought. Little Hawk, however, does not deserve quite as much vehemence as you offer him, I would suggest, because he is discussing things that simply don't fall on the same table, or at least do so from a different spectrum. I would be interested to discover evidence so compelling of the absolute materiality of all things that it would somehow outweigh all the evidence I have encountered of things being otherwise. But I promise you this. As you may have surmised I have a fond conviction that in addition to having a reasonably good body (for its age) which I can be one with at will, I also have a mode of existence which is completely whole, aware, intentional, perceptive, and independent of the body. I do not believe that dying is a simple and final blackout where all consciousness terminates. But when I die, if it turns out that that IS what I experience, I promise you I will willingly change my mind about my cherished, but fallacious, convictions,, and will accept the evidence I encounter. A |
