Origin: Little Shoemaker (French/English/Italian)

Subject: RE: Origin: Little Shoemaker (French/English/Italian)
From: GUEST,Gi
Date: 09 Jun 22 - 09:14 PM

The Di Mara sisters, did a version (italian & english ) in 1959 on a LP tiltled : Cha Cha Italiannna

Subject: RE: Origin: Little Shoemaker (French/English/Italian)
From: GUEST
Date: 03 Sep 13 - 04:14 PM

The flipside was called Mecque, Mecque.

Subject: RE: Origin: Little Shoemaker (French/English/Italian)
From: Sanjay Sircar
Date: 26 Mar 13 - 03:46 AM

Mrrzy, Genie, Monique (and anyone interested in the matter): I also have some thoughts privately sent to me by Genie and Monique on what certain words in those Clooney lines might mean , but am unable to post them publicly without permission, so I hereby ask for it.

And yes, I would still like to sing the song to dulcimer accompaniment, be it my version-in-progress, incorporating the sense of the Revil extra lyrics, or any other, so any passing dulcimerist is welcome to PM me...

Here are the youtube comments cut and pasted from the above youtube Clooney page. The first comment in particular seems relevant to (some of) our concerns here:

QUOTATION FROM YOUTUBE COMMENTS BEGINS

ildeNotesMusic 2 months ago
I believe this is pretty much what Ms. Clooney is singing in French:
"Chantez, m'en apprend* se danser, danser,
Danser, danser dans le pré.
Chantez, m'en apprend* se danser, danser,
Danser, danser allegré.
* It probably should be "apprendre," but maybe she's just kind of dropping the end of the word to fit the melody line.
("Sing, teach me to dance, ... , in the meadow.
Sing, teach me to dance, ... sprightly dance.")
Reply ·    in playlist Gaylords - The Little Shoemaker

WildeNotesMusic 2 months ago
Can anyone who's fluent in French transcribe the French chorus lyrics that Rosie Clooney sang? All I can make out for certain are the words "Chantez" and "dansez" (or "danser").
Reply ·   

gladasya10 4 months ago
In the early 1970's, Captain Kangaroo would show a sequence featuring this version with Cosmo Allgretti (Dennis) and Debbie Weems (Debbie) respectively miming the shoemaker and the customer.
Reply ·   

VealParmigiana 7 months ago
I haven't heard this before. My favorite version of this song. Rosemary was a great song interpreter. Petula Clark's version is my second favorite.
Reply ·   

Bluejeans0701 2 years ago
I did not know that Rosemary Clooney had recorded this song. She amazingly sang it and proved how talented she was. I am glad to hear her voice. Thanks for posting this clip.
Reply ·   

QUOTATION FROM YOUTUBE COMMENTS ENDS


Sanjay Sircar

Subject: RE: Origin: Little Shoemaker (French/English/Italian)
From: Sanjay Sircar
Date: 26 Mar 13 - 03:23 AM

Mrrzy: I apologise: I did not see your post of 14 February. Here is the reference to the youtube clip of R Cloondy singing intrguiing (to some of us) 4 lines in "French":

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GsXl9qYlnMA

I will cut and paste the comments to that clip on youtube separately (I think they are relevant to our concerns here).   

Sanjay Sircar

Subject: RE: Origin: Little Shoemaker (French/English/Italian)
From: Sanjay Sircar
Date: 26 Mar 13 - 03:10 AM

What I had written earlier, but not posted, in view of the juridical verdict that (a) this song is merely commercial pop music, no matter what language it is in, (b) that an audience for the French version where she dances till she dies is unknown to some, apart from the men who enjoy seeing females, especially young and pretty ones, suffer but who might not form much of a consumer base and (c ) that the French version went into the Great Garbage Can of Forgotten Culture, and that is said to a good thing (for these, see above) is as follows:
Of course, documentation would be needed for any claim that Revil's lyrics have been forgotten in areas Francophone, or superseded by English ones…( I think there might be amateurs singing the Revil version on youtube, but have forgotten)
1.        A link to the Gaylords rendition (2:20 minutes) is still at
www.youtube.com/watch?v=GeJDmYgn9Xc

2.        It is not clear whether there was any difference between the 2:36 and the 2:16 ("original") links in the now withdrawn youtube links given by Joe Offer on 11 Nov 11 above.

3.         Here, cut-and-pasted are the notes Joe Offer transcribed
Notes from the YouTube Recording of the 1954 Gaylords Version (2:36 minutes): Originally a French tune called "Le Petit Cordonnnier." French was not the chosen language for the one verse in the tune where the boys sang in a different language, however. No, they were Italian fellows and most of their songs contains a verse of Italian.Wonder how that would work today.
Hugo Winterhalter also recorded this with his orchestra with a "friend." Of course, we all knew it was Eddie Fisher but his name did not appear on the label. Winterhalter's version got as high as #9 on Billboard's charts.
________________________________________
Notes from the YouTube Recording of the "Original" (?) Gaylords Version (2:16 minutes): "The Little Shoemaker" was adapted from a French song entitled "Le petit cordonnier," by Rudi Revil. English lyrics were later added, and the best-selling version of this song was recorded by The Gaylords and was a hit for most of the summer of 1954. At about the same time a recording by Petula Clark became her first chart hit in the U.K. The Gaylords would have several more hits before breaking up and becoming just a duo billed as "Gaylord and Holiday". This recording became so popular with kids that even the Captain Kangaroo tv show used it for several segments during its morning run in the 50's.

The songs have been withdrawn, but the note to the 2:36 link (is at http://www.frequency.com/video/little-shoemaker-by-gaylords-1954/23495388

The note to the 2:16 link is at
http://www.frequency.com/video/gaylords-little/26758314
The end of the note is truncated, but it has been transcribed in full above.

4.         The Hugo Winterhalter/Eddie Fisher 1954 recording and the Alma Cogan 1954 recording, mentioned in the Wikipedia link also given by Joe Offer above, do not appear to be on youtube.

5.        Nor does the Raquel Rastenni, acc. Harry Felbert 1954 Danish recording, "Den lille Skomager" words by Knud Pfeiffer (and Rudi Revil, but *not* the adapters into English according to an entry in the World Cat catalogue).

6.        However, there is a song in Danish charmingly sung by amateurs, probably to the same words , at
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Im3gPDgqt4E
It would be interesting to see what these Danish words say, and whether or not they are directly from the French or via the English language adaptation, as I think likely. The length is 3:09 minutes, but that does not tell us anything conclusive. The performers use sticks, not clappers, I think.

7.         Japanese
Singer Peggy Hayama (2:01 minutes) is at
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KbnYMN4-zKU

She has the first stanza and chorus in English; then in Japanese. It is probably thus a direct translation from the English-language words. It appears to omit the second stanza of the English adaptation/abridgement, so it is a further abridgement of the Gaylords, Clark, Clooney, et. al. .

Here is a male singer singing it in Japanese (2:11 minutes):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x4iDBxcspzw
There is no English. But there does appear to be a second stanza.

The Japanese words to the first stanza+chorus sound the same in both. The song goes more slowly as the male singer sings it.

8.        The Gaylords have initially "Tap, tap, stitch and tap, making a pair of shoes"; Clooney has "Little shoemaker, stitch and tap" (2), Petula Clark goes straight into the song, as do both Japanese singers.
9.         To my ears, the clappers are a stronger feature in Petula Clark and Rosemary Clooney than they are in the French (sung by Francis Lemarque at www.youtube.com/watch?v=jMp1GD14uxY, (2:49 minutes), and the Gaylords.

10.        There is a charming animation on youtube too
(cf the puppet-scene as Leslie Caron sings 'Hi-lili hi-lili hi-lo" in the relevant film), and at least two amateurs rendering the tune on the accordion , so it might not be entirely forgotten popular culture there today.
11.        The French original narrative by Rudi Revil, as translated above, appears to use the folktale motif of the shoes that go on dancing without the wearer's volition in the Grimms, a motif adapted and made more central to his narrative by Andersen. In Rudi Revil, the maiden is thus rendered contrite, but the narrative has an open ending. There is nothing about her dancing to death (except by association with the former narratives). The English-language translation/adaptation/abridgement omits much of the detail of dialogue, and characters' interaction, truncates and thus significantly alters the narrative (leaves it even more open: did he pursue her, did he ever speak, did he get over her the next day, did he do what his French model did: did she return, what happened to her?) and the characterisation (and motivation). There is thus a movement over time in the softening of the use of the motif. He is not at all inarticulate in the original; only in English-language revision. It might possibly be an interpretive mistake to draw too quickly on psychology for literary works in stylised genres, be they works old or new, high or "commercial", works which make few but gestures in the direction of literary realism or real life. It is a truism that the "merely commercial" work of one age is or can become the classic literature of a subsequent one (cf. Shakespeare). If there is any interest in the song, certainly the French composer Francois Pantillon cannot be called "Forgotten Popular Literature", the French might confirm or deny this about his music and Revil's lyrics in circles Francophone, and I wonder who the arbiters of what or should not be forgotten are, and by what or whose authority they speak.

Sanjay Sircar

Subject: RE: Origin: Little Shoemaker (French/English/Italian)
From: Sanjay Sircar
Date: 26 Mar 13 - 02:39 AM

Hold on - it is coming. I thought this thread had been killed stone-dead forever by a diktat on the nature and value of this song (see above) , so I did not bother to post the long note I had on the *other* Japanese version etc. etc., but I will.

Sanjay Sircar

Subject: RE: Origin: Little Shoemaker (French/English/Italian)
From: Cool Beans
Date: 25 Mar 13 - 11:54 AM

I can tell you, because I got it from Burt and Ron (the Gaylords) themselves, that they originally called themselves the Gay Lords. The term "Gay" merely meant "Happy" in the 1950s (to most people).

Subject: RE: Origin: Little Shoemaker (French/English/Italian)
From: beeliner
Date: 24 Mar 13 - 04:13 PM

What then, did the Gaylords sing on the other side of their "Little Shoemaker", and what was its non-English component? If it was French it implies something different from if it was Italian.


Here is the chorus, which also begins the song:

Mecque, Mecque, m'qu'est que c'est?
Please tell me when you'll name the day
Mecque, Mecque,, m'qu'est que c'est?
The day when you and I are one.

The only French word in any of the verses is "oui".

Subject: RE: Origin: Little Shoemaker (French/English/Italian)
From: Mrrzy
Date: 14 Feb 13 - 02:13 PM

OK, I can't find the link that you had me listen to, Sanjay Sircar, can you repost? I will put in what I heard when I hear it again... i'd love to hear what Monique thinks she heard (BG)...

Subject: RE: Origin: Little Shoemaker (French/English/Italian)
From: GUEST
Date: 24 Jan 13 - 12:18 PM

Here is the Japanese version. Could anyone provide the text in Japanese (and a translation)?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KbnYMN4-zKU

Subject: RE: Origin: Little Shoemaker (French/English/Italian)
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 24 Jan 13 - 11:54 AM

It's merely commercial pop music, no matter what language it is in. The 1950's version sung by the Gaylords was written to appeal to the young audience who listened to 45's on the radio.

As for the French version where she dances till she dies, I don't know whom that was supposed to appeal to. There are men who enjoy seeing females, especially young and pretty ones, suffer but I don't think they form much of a consumer base. That version went into the Great Garbage Can of Forgotten Culture, and I think that's a good thing.

By the way, I know a woman named Bridget who is a speech therapist, and she throws some possible light on the life of the shoemaker of the song. I saw Bridget after she had moved to New York City and had obtained a job in the public schools. She was disappointed because she wasn't doing actual speech therapy.

Her usual charge had a story like this:

A young child, maybe 4, 5 or 6, goes to the doctor for some reason, and the doctor says "Is he talking?" The parents look at each other and seem amazed. "No he isn't! We never noticed!"

The child's story turns out to be something like this. He is the fourth of sixth children. The TV is going all the time and computers are beeping. Parents may be working long hours. The older children are good at manipulating others for attention, and the babies unabashedly cry when they need it. The little kid, however, gets ignored. If he's lucky, he gets sent to a bridget, and she encourages him to talk.

I think the shoemaker was once a child like that, and he grew up and remained silent. The SHE comes along...

Subject: RE: Origin: Little Shoemaker (French/English/Italian)
From: Jack Campin
Date: 23 Jan 13 - 06:48 PM

The YouTube links Joe posted in November 2011 have gone.

Subject: RE: Origin: Little Shoemaker (French/English/Italian)
From: Sanjay Sircar
Date: 23 Jan 13 - 06:15 PM

How nice to hear from the lady who plays it on the dulcimer. do like the parody.

It is not a matter of changing to "another tiresome" tale of female badness, I think: it is a matter of going from 1950s Anglophone changes (sanitising, or jhust abridging?) to a form of the original, which has genuine folklore affinities, and trying to incorporate accretions along the way such as those as sung by Rosemary Clooney. The standard 1950s form can remain sacrosanct for those who like a refreshingly new tale of female innocence rather than heartlessness...

The tickets are free, and you are most welcome. Sarcasm on scholarly endeavour is quite enough of a reward for one's efforts in this regard.

Sanjay Sircar

Subject: RE: Origin: Little Shoemaker (French/English/Italian)
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 23 Jan 13 - 01:36 PM

I've been playing this on my dulcimer. I think I mentioned this somewhere already, but it's a good tune. The E minors in the refrain are meltingly delicious.

It makes me sad to hear of people changing this song (English version) from an innocent tale of puppy love to another tiresome tale of female badness. Some say she jilted him. How could she jilt a man she had never had a date with? Others would have it that she ungratefully took the gift of shoes then danced away. Pfui.


Yes, I know, it's just a song and she's only imaginary. But yesterday I read a true story in the paper of a 16-year-old who posted online that he wanted to rape an 11-year-old. He posted her picture so everybody could see. Several other people went online to encourage him and tell him how. Fortunately the cops caught up with him after 'indecent liberties with a child' but before an actual rape.

Sigh. Baseless hostility against young females - it never seems to stop. From jokes, to songs, to movies, to crimes, it never stops.

But back to ths Shoemaker: there's another verse, ya know. It's not well known.

He accepted her card,
turned it over, staring hard.
Barely raised his head
as he glumly said -

"Shoes - they cost ten thousand lire, lire
with the discount, let me say.
Shoes - they cost ten thousand lire, lire
Thanks for stopping have a nice day."

You need some sixteenth notes to do that last line.

Naturally she fails to detect the flame of love in that, and that's a good thing, because most young females find instant ardor frightening. (They fear it's that baseless hostility in disguise.)

Fortunately for mankind, ballet shoes wear out fast. She'll be back, and by that time Cupid will have whispered in the shoemaker's ear those beautiful words that reach every entertainer's heart:

When's your show?

and

How much are the tickets?

Subject: RE: Origin: Little Shoemaker (French/English/Italian)
From: Monique
Date: 18 Jan 13 - 04:29 PM

Since she made this stuff herself, I don't think she fancied singing in any special brand of French since after all, her audience was supposed to be native English speakers, not natives of any French, it was just to give a French note to her rendition.
Genie, you mean this song?

Subject: RE: Origin: Little Shoemaker (French/English/Italian)
From: Genie
Date: 18 Jan 13 - 04:10 PM

FWIW, Monique, the Limeliters shortened the lyric phrase "pour apprendre à jouer de l'épinette" in the song "Le Jouer de Luth" to "pour apprendre jouer l'epinette," and when you listen to their recording, it sounds like [English 'phonetic' spelling] "poor apprahn joo-eh ...".
I.e., I cannot hear the "-dre" ending on "apprendre" or the "à" either.
The Limeliters were not native French speakers either, but their French pronunciation generally seems pretty good, and given the way they sound on that line, I wonder if Clooney was also singing "apprendre."

Subject: RE: Origin: Little Shoemaker (French/English/Italian)
From: Genie
Date: 18 Jan 13 - 03:55 PM

Thanks for refreshing my memory on several points of French grammar, Monique.   It's interesting to to me that even with the various suggestions of what it sounds like Rosie Clooney is singing in French, you can't 'hear' anything that makes sense even as slang.
That makes me wonder whether maybe Rosie was singing in some dialect such as Canadian French or Creole, or maybe her pronunciation wasn't very good.   : )



All we can really tell is that she's singing about singing and about dancing in the meadow.

Subject: RE: Origin: Little Shoemaker (French/English/Italian)
From: Monique
Date: 18 Jan 13 - 10:12 AM

Génie, what you have rephrased makes sense in English but the sentence as it is in French doesn't. Google translator didn't "notice" that "ta" can't be used with "danser", that "m'en apprend" needs a subject unless you consider that "Chanter" is the subject -then it's an infinitive, not an imperative-, besides, "en apprendre" means "to learn/to teach about something and it's followed by "sur/au sujet de/ à propos de"; it's either "apprendre quelque chose" (to learn/teach something), or "apprendre à +verb" (to learn/teach how to +verb) or "en apprendre sur/au sujet de..." so you can't have "m'en apprend à + verb" unless you speak some gibberish (I said gibberish, not slang).
"À le gré: There's "à la + femenine noun in singular" but there's no "à le + masculine noun in singular" as there's no "à les + either gender noun in plural" because it's "au" and "aux". Ditto for "de le", "de les": it's "du" and "des". Then it can't be "à le gré". Moreover, though "gré" means "pleasure, will, fancy" and even if it were "au gré", you wouldn't have "au gré"-period. It's always "au gré de -who/whatever-" or "à mon gré, à ton gré..." (to someone/something/my/your... will/pleasure/fancy), or "de bon gré" (with good will) but it's a different pattern. So forget "à le gré".

Subject: RE: Origin: Little Shoemaker (French/English/Italian)
From: Genie
Date: 18 Jan 13 - 08:59 AM

What do you think of this, Monique? (This is what it sounds to me like Clooney is singing in French, though I realize that some different words and phrases can sound alike.)

Chantez, m'en apprends ta danser, danser,
Danser, danser dans le pré.
Chantez m'en apprends ta danser, danser,
Danser, danser à le gré.

Google Translates that as :
Sing, teach me your dance, dancing,
Dance, dance in the meadow.
Sing me teach your dance, dancing,
Dance, dance at the wishes.

I'd rephrase that as:
"Sing, (in) teaching me your dance, dance,
Dancing, dancing in the meadow.
Sing, teaching me your dance, dance,
Dancing, dancing as I wish."

Subject: RE: Origin: Little Shoemaker (French/English/Italian)
From: Genie
Date: 18 Jan 13 - 08:46 AM

I'll take your word for it, Monique. The dictionary I have does say it's "allégre," so that's probably not what Clooney is singing.    It does, however, give the word "gré" as a noun meaning "liking." So would "Danser à le gré" mean "to dance to my liking" (or, more idiomatically, "to dance for my pleasure" or "to dance any way I like?"

It would be great to find the sheet music and/or a recording by someone else who uses Clooney's French lyrics to the chorus.

Subject: RE: Origin: Little Shoemaker (French/English/Italian)
From: Monique
Date: 18 Jan 13 - 07:44 AM

Genie, yes "allègre" means indeed what you say, but the accented "è" is stressed and open, the final "e" doesn't sound, and there's no way that it could be stressed and both "è" and "e" be pronounced "é" because it wouldn't be understandable in French. I agree that songs sometimes do play fast and loose with normal grammar and twist prononciation a little but even loose grammar and twisted pronunciation need to be understandable. It's as if I pronounced some English word sounding like /stayPLAY/ (don't read it again but just say it over and over...) you'll probably wonder for ages what I meant (it's the next quizz, ah!)
It can't be "ton/ta/tes" (possessive determiners) "danser" (verb); even in the very unlikely case where "danser" would be used as nominalized verb, it'd be "ton", not "ta".
Is there any sheet music or a record sleeve or any document with the printed lyrics?

Subject: RE: Origin: Little Shoemaker (French/English/Italian)
From: Genie
Date: 18 Jan 13 - 06:56 AM

Monique, my French-English dictionary gives this definition of "allègre":
Adjective
(a) lively, jaunty, merry (music); light-hearted, cheerful, gay

(It would seem this is the 'Frenchified' version of the Italian "allegro.")

Also, can't "Chant, et m'en apprends ta (tes) danser" mean "Sing(ing), and teaching myself your dance"?   Or can't "Chanter m'en apprends ta danser" mean "Singing in teaching myself your dance">

I get that the gist seems to be she's saying that she's singing in (or "and") learning (teaching herself) to dance in the meadow and to dance cheerfully (gaily).   

Song lyrics sometimes do play fast and loose with normal grammar and twist pronunciation a little to fit the meter and rhyme.

Subject: RE: Origin: Little Shoemaker (French/English/Italian)
From: Monique
Date: 17 Jan 13 - 11:31 PM

Genie, at first I also thought that it might be "maintenant" slurred in "main'nant" but I hear no -"nant".

Subject: RE: Origin: Little Shoemaker (French/English/Italian)
From: Monique
Date: 17 Jan 13 - 11:27 PM

The first word can be "chantez" (imperative) or "chanter" (infinitive), it could also be two words "chante et"..., "tes" is a possessive determiner that must be followed by a noun, it doesn't fit. "apprend" is pronounced "apprahn" but "apprendre" is pronounced "apprahnd" in the most casual case.
I recorded this first part and slowed down the tempo but it doesn't help much. When I first heard it, I heard "chantez... la France, dansez, dansez, dansez dans les prés" but I thought it was recorded much later WW II to tell the French to sing and go dance in the meadows. It can't be "allégré", there isn't such a word, "allez gré" doesn't mean anything. I hear it as some "vré" but there's no "vré", only "vrai" (true) and it doesn't make more sense. Well, as we say, "c'est clair comme du jus de boudin" (literal translation: it's as clear as black pudding juice)

Subject: RE: Origin: Little Shoemaker (French/English/Italian)
From: Genie
Date: 17 Jan 13 - 11:25 PM

Correction of my last post.   It should read:

Here's what it sounds most like she's singing:

"Chantez, m'en apprendre tes danser, danser,
Danser, dancer dans le pré.   
Chantez, m'en apprendre tes danser, danser,
Danser, dancer allegré."

The word "chantez" is not repeated within any line of the chorus.




Monique, "Chantez mon enfance et dansez" would make sense too, but if that's the line, Clooney is pronouncing "mon" as if it rhymed with "en," not with "on."

Subject: Audio: Le Petit Cordonnier (Lemarque)
From: Genie
Date: 17 Jan 13 - 08:46 PM

Here is "Le Petit Cordonnier" chanté par Francis Lemarque

Subject: RE: Origin: Little Shoemaker (French/English/Italian)
From: Genie
Date: 17 Jan 13 - 07:57 PM

BTW, if I enter "Chantez, chantez m'en apprend tes danser, danser,
Danser, danser allegré." in Google translate and have their French robot read it out loud, it sounds almost exactly the way Clooney sings those lines, but it translates "apprend" as "learn," without "teach" as an option.
If I enter "... m'en apprendre tes danser ..." instead, it gives me "to teach me your dance" as an optional translation but pronounces "apprendre" as two syllables, so it doesn't sound the same.

Would the word "apprendre" be prounced as "apprahn" even in casual speech or slang by a Frenchman (the way we Americans often drop the endings of common words)?

Subject: RE: Origin: Little Shoemaker (French/English/Italian)
From: Genie
Date: 17 Jan 13 - 07:42 PM

Monique, Rosemary Clooney does sing the French part twice and it seems like she's repeating the same line.   I don't know how good her French pronunciation was (Nat Cole's was pretty bad on some words), but here are the sounds I'm hearing:

Chantez (or "chanter")
Dansez (or "danser)
"mahn" (as in "m'en," not "mon")
"teh" or "tay" -

Here's what it sounds most like she's singing:

"Chantez, chantez m'en apprendre tes danser, danser,
Danser, dancer dans le pré.   
Chantez, chantez m'en apprendre tes danser, danser,
Danser, dancer allegré."   

(although if "allegré" is right, Rosie's pronunciation sounds more like "alluhgray" than "allehgray".)

Google translate reads that as
"Sing, sing to teach me your dance, dancing,
Dancing, sprightly dancing.:

That fits my admittedly limited knowledge of French, as well as the feeling of the song.


It's probably a partial mondegreen on my part, but I'm pretty sure of all of it except the "allegré" and (even less) the "apprendre tes" part.



BTW, sometimes its as hard or harder to discern the sung lyrics in one's own native language!

Subject: RE: Origin: Little Shoemaker (French/English/Italian)
From: Monique
Date: 17 Jan 13 - 05:52 PM

No Genie, it doesn't make any sense to me but it might be "Chantez, moi j'apprends à danser..." which means "Sing, I'm learning to dance...". I asked a friend this afternoon and she heard "Chantez mon enfance et dansez..." which means "Sing my childhood and dance..." I don't know if you say that in English, but in French, to sing your childhood (or any other moment) means to sing songs from your childhood that makes you feel like you're still back then.
I can't find out if she sings the same thing twice or not but I have the feeling that she doesn't, making things worse!

Subject: RE: Origin: Little Shoemaker (French/English/Italian)
From: Sanjay Sircar
Date: 17 Jan 13 - 05:43 PM

@Genie:

1. Yes, a poster posted that on the other side of the Gaylords' "Little shoemaker" there was a song sung by them with lyrics in French - not Italian, but French... (see upthread). If this is so, it means that their interpolation elsewhere, of foreign-language lyrics other than Italian, their own ethnic language, would be along the lines of Rosemary Clooney's (and her music director)... Depending on the song and the interpolation, It would betoken sophistication, cosmopolitanism, the American melting pot and/or the rustic/rural/faraway/fairytale-distancing, etc. etc.

2. We are getting somewhere with Clooney's French! Monique got "dance in the meadow" and you have got something along the lies of "Sing, that I might learn to..." which DOES add an additional component to our interesting little tale... I wonder if the lovely girl is telling the shoemaker to sing, or onlookers, or what?

This is fun, though some might find it irritating...

Sanjay Sircar

Subject: RE: Origin: Little Shoemaker (French/English/Italian)
From: Genie
Date: 17 Jan 13 - 03:16 PM

Sanjay,
The most I can make out of Clooney's French lyrics is that it sounds like she's singing something like
"Chantez, m'en l'apprend tes danser, danser,
Dansez, dansez dans le pré."

That doesn't make too much sense or sound grammatical (I'm far from fluent in French, though I studied it for 2 years in college), but it kind of sounds like maybe she's sining something like "Sing, so I can learn to dance, dance, dance in the meadow."

Does that make any sense to you, Monique, and can you maybe fill in the gaps or figure out the part that sounds like "m'en l'apprend tes"?

Subject: RE: Origin: Little Shoemaker (French/English/Italian)
From: Genie
Date: 17 Jan 13 - 03:02 PM

Sanjay, what did you mean by "4. What then, did the Gaylords sing on the other side of their "Little Shoemaker", and what was its non-English component?   If it was French it implies something different from if it was Italian."   
Are you assuming that the B side of the Gaylords' "Shoemaker" had a non-English component?
The did not sing anything in French on "The Little Shoemaker."

Subject: RE: Origin: Little Shoemaker (French/English/Italian)
From: Sanjay Sircar
Date: 16 Jan 13 - 06:33 PM

@Monique: more and more cultural information, thank you. We must now find some Cajun person to enlighten us... :-). The hairstyle need notbecaclld "rouleau", just the padding for the hair, for it to make sense.

Do you think I should put out a separate call on this forum for a Francophone willing to listen to R Clooney, to see if it gets someone who has not read this post, willing to make a stab at her three (?) other French lines? I do not want to offend against decorum.

Sanjay Sircar

Subject: RE: Origin: Little Shoemaker (French/English/Italian)
From: Monique
Date: 16 Jan 13 - 05:03 AM

Sanjay, in France we call this hairstyle "banane" (banana), I haven't the slightest idea if it's what the Cajun call "rouleau".

Subject: RE: Origin: Little Shoemaker (French/English/Italian)
From: Sanjay Sircar
Date: 16 Jan 13 - 04:17 AM

@Monique: Thank you. There was a hairstyle called a "French pleat" or "French roll" which women who did not have hair long or luxuriant enough used to fold and tuck in upon a longish "base" of padding. I wonder if the "curling pin"/"roller" for the hair could be this object? It would be less ridiculous than a curler itself... The twelve dancing princesses only wore their shoes out; being worn out by dancing and dancing shoes is a reversal that is most interesting.

What a thing it is that Clooney's French is so indistinct! :-) Ah well, someone, somewhere will fathom it sometime...

Sanjay Sircar

Subject: RE: Origin: Little Shoemaker (French/English/Italian)
From: Monique
Date: 16 Jan 13 - 03:33 AM

@Sanjay: I take the word to mean, in this case, a hair curler. It might also be a rolling pin but I don't think the girl would dance with a rolling pin in her hand -though I admit that going to dance still having a curler in one's hair is also weird but we don't know where the whole thing happens. No other meaning of "rouleau"/"roller" fits and I couldn't find any special meaning of the word in any Cajun online dictionary.

Subject: RE: Origin: Little Shoemaker (French/English/Italian)
From: Sanjay Sircar
Date: 15 Jan 13 - 11:15 PM

@Monique: What is Anna's "roller", please?

I do hope Genie or any other kind Francophone will listen to see if Rosemary Clooney can be rendered comprehensible.

Sanjay Sircar

Subject: RE: Origin: Little Shoemaker (French/English/Italian)
From: Monique
Date: 15 Jan 13 - 05:45 AM

@ Sanjay: I couldn't understand everything she says but the first line is:
Chantez [-][-]dansez, dansez, dansez, dansez dans les prés
Sing [-][-] dance, dance, dance, dance in the meadows
I couldn't understand the end of the 2nd line.

@Genie: can you get what I couldn't?

Subject: RE: Origin: Little Shoemaker (French/English/Italian)
From: Sanjay Sircar
Date: 15 Jan 13 - 04:11 AM

1. Thank you, ma'am. If it is a folksong, it is yseful. If it is an art-song, ditto. For either way, the girl is eing danced to extinction.

2. Here is Mlle Clooney:

www.youtube.com/watch?v=GsXl9qYlnMA

I do hope it works, and my renewed thanks regardless.

Sanjay Sircar

Subject: RE: Origin: Little Shoemaker (French/English/Italian)
From: Monique
Date: 15 Jan 13 - 03:20 AM

Sanjay, here you are. The translation is quite literal:

It's Mozenne Meaux' little Anna
Who's leaving and declining (or "she's declining more and more")
It's Mozenne Meaux' little Anna
Who's leaving and declining (or "she's declining more and more")
It's getting worse, there'll be nothing left of her,
There's almost nothing left, there's almost nothing left,
It's getting worse, there'll be nothing left of her,
There's almost nothing left, there's almost nothing left,

There's nothing left but her roller,
But her roller and her red ribbon,
There's nothing left but her roller,
But her roller and her red ribbon,
Little Mozenne Meaux is going to kill her,
He makes her spin too fast, he makes her spinn too fast.
Little Mozenne Meaux is going to kill her,
He makes her spin too fast, he makes her spinn too fast.

I don't know Clooney's four lines but if you provide them or find a way for me to listen to them, I can translate them.

Subject: RE: Origin: Little Shoemaker (French/English/Italian)
From: Sanjay Sircar
Date: 14 Jan 13 - 10:36 PM

@Monique: Thank you: your post overlapped with my lst one. The translation is useful, the information ditto.

Are you able to translate Clooney's four lines and/or the lyric above given by carl Ellis? I beg pardon for asking, and "no" will do nicely as an answer.

Sanjay Sircar

Subject: RE: Origin: Little Shoemaker (French/English/Italian)
From: Sanjay Sircar
Date: 14 Jan 13 - 07:58 AM

1. @Carl Ellis: Thank you for the information on "Aux Marches du Palais" a.k.a. "La Rève du Cordonnier". Your CD will re-emerge when you are not looking for it. I looked it up on the four mudcat threads that seem to mention it, and saw, with the very intersting note by Joe Offer on the old origins of the song and the"family of tunes" to which iti s set, two interesting things, viz.

(a) that French traditional songs are regarded as children's songs and as such have less prestie and attention (I know the phenomenon well, for when I had a subject it was children's literature, which is how I come to this 1950s little shoemaker, which was part of my own childhood, for the story)

(b) that in the genuinely folk "La Rève du Cordonnier" the princess prefers the shoemaker and it is thus a third-son/princess story.

2. This proves/indicates that in French folktale shoemakers and lovely maidens, princesses or just girls who like to dance, go together (not as far as I know the case in English folklore).

3. But what I asm now left with is -
- one Rosemary Clooney new French refrain to the 1950s Little Shoemaker      
- two French texts possibly related to the 1950s shoemaker
- three [turtle doves -- no, only joking] French texts I cannot read because I did not have that sort of edjimakyshun...

So would/will you help with any or all of the translations (Clooney is on youtubeand upthread), pls? FWIW, anything I write I will acknowledge all help recd.   

4. What then, did the Gaylords sing on the other side of their "Little Shoemaker", and what was its non-English component? If it was French it implies something different from if it was Italian.

@beeliner: with me, the Gaylords could still call themselves that, because I still follow the older ordinary use of the word (as did a collegegirl in Delhi in the early 1970s, and an old Chinese lady and an old South Asian one in the mid 1980s, quite innocently)...

5.@ Genie: if your dulcimerist friends ever come this way, and are interested in accompanying me in my intended but as yet unwritten amateur mtrical-rhyming Englishing of the hitherto "untold story" in English, they would be very welcome.   

6. In case anyone is interested: just as there are folk faiytales, there are art-fairytales in a secondary genre which has its roots in the primary one (and in-between genres such as art-retellings/elaborations of folk fairy tales, into which I suppose most of Disney would fall). This secondary genre has, empirically, three varieties in English: burlesque (comic parody), romantic, and allegorical (the least close to the actual folk faiytale genre).

As a child, the bewitched fingers of the 1950s shoemaker and the girl waltzing "as though she were entranced", and the open ending not-in-marriage, made me group this song in my head with similar romantic art-fairytales (Kunstmaerchen). I see now that I was right to do so, in that there was more enchantment in the story before, a Kunst predecessor in Andersen, and a genuine Maerchen motif in the punishing shoes (for cruelty/then vanity/now heartlessness), going from peripheral to the story in Grimm to central thereafter, plus other traditional French shoemakers and damsels (as generic "relatives").

All that remains is to see whether there is anything at all additional in the Japanese. I doubt it, but it is possible.
   
Sanjay Sircar

Subject: RE: Origin: Little Shoemaker (French/English/Italian)
From: Monique
Date: 14 Jan 13 - 07:37 AM

Sanjay, we have the original lyrics of "Aux marches du palais" with an English translation on Mama Lisa's World French page and the original lyrics with no translation but with some information are on this Mudcat thread

Subject: RE: Origin: Little Shoemaker (French/English/Italian)
From: Genie
Date: 14 Jan 13 - 12:59 AM

Sanjay, I'm not a dulcimerist - though I know a couple.

Subject: RE: Origin: Little Shoemaker (French/English/Italian)
From: GUEST,Carl Ellis
Date: 13 Jan 13 - 11:47 PM

S. S. - The other one you are now interested in is "Aux Marches du Palais" (on Mudcat) a.k.a. "La Rève du Cordonnier", my CD of which I can't find when I want it (As Usual), & thus can't give you a decent transcription of the words more familiar to me.

This thread also reminds me of a brief Cajun tune "La Petite Anna", which sounds to me as though it could be possibly be a relation, tho much of the story has disappeared:

C'est la p'tite Anna, de Mozenne Meaux,
Qui s'en va-t-en declinant.
C'est la p'tite Anna, de Mozenne Meaux,
Qui s'en va-t-en declinant.
Ça va pire, il n'en restera pu',
Il ne reste proche pu', il ne rest proche pu'.
Ça va pire, il n'en restera pu',
Il ne reste proche pu', il ne rest proche pu'.

I'reste pu', que son rouleau;
Que son rouleau, et son ruban rouge.
I'reste pu', que son rouleau;
Que son rouleau, et son ruban rouge.
Ti' Mozenne Meaux, il va la tuer,
Il la tourne trop vite, Il la tourne trop vite.
Ti' Mozenne Meaux, il va la tuer,
Il la tourne trop vite, Il la tourne trop vite.

I have it on a tape of an early David Greeley recording, can't say where you might find that. My apologies to French grammarians, I don't pretend to be good at it, but it should serve.

Subject: RE: Origin: Little Shoemaker (French/English/Italian)
From: Sanjay Sircar
Date: 13 Jan 13 - 07:17 PM

Can you remember what the song was?

French, or Italian? Important, because if Italian, it indicates only their own ethnicity/language; if French, then more "foreignness"/poshness/Maerchen-like "distancing" of the tale.

Ah well, a translation of the Clooney French refrain will turn up when it turns up.      

I will try when I can to put the rest of the French story into metrical for, and I will write up a note on the difference between original and English derivation and see if anyone wants to print it.

Sanjay Sircar

Subject: RE: Origin: Little Shoemaker (French/English/Italian)
From: beeliner
Date: 13 Jan 13 - 12:52 AM

I had that record, and as I recall, the flip side also had some lyrics in French.

I don't know if the Gaylords could get by with that name today.

Subject: RE: Origin: Little Shoemaker (French/English/Italian)
From: Sanjay Sircar
Date: 12 Jan 13 - 08:56 PM

I must apologise: senility overlaying an always overhasty tendency to babble are a bad combination when it comes to trying to make one's meaning clear, but they are a combination I am stuck with.

1. I cannot read music or play an instrument, so I meant, I would like to try my hand at singing thesong, accompanied by the accomplished musican who has newly set the song for the dulcimer, thus taking the song out of a 1950s ambience of clappers, noise and syncopation, into a more ersatz medieval-ish one, a more silvery sounding one; more magical too, in that any dulcimer after Coleridge and 1798 is that ("in a vision" once he saw "a damsel with a dulcimer, on the slopes of Mount Abora")... Are you the dulcimerist, "Genie"?

2. New thoughts on the dramatis personae and plot:
(a) English: you cannot be jilted unless you have made your intentions clear; for simply tongue-tiedly "hoping" someone will "know you love them so" when you render them services will not automatically get the job done...   You the lover "hoped she know", "but" she did not, and she she "danced away", in self- and possession-absorbed joy. Inarticulate love, unknown and thus unreciprocated, leads to pathos as a result of not being cared for, but not female rudeness-to-heartlessness on the one hand and punitive male cruelty on the other...

French: you attempt clearly to make a bargain (you need not pay for my goods, but must love me"; you are quite as clearly rejected (you are daft to think I would make this bargain!); you go on ahead regardless; you still do not get your way, but in exchange for what you have given; but you have ensured you will get a payment (blackmail of a sort?); your victim agrees and pleads with you... But how far her capitulation is genuine (see the interpretation above in this thread: "she now realises...") or enforced and desperate is unclear, probably the latter (cf "the girl in Don't be Cross, it cannot be!"); unclear too is what happens then, unlike Grimm/Andersen; and so it remains open: does he let her off, does she truly love him, do they marry or do they part (she having learnt her lesson, but not he, either way)?

(b) evidence for the English betwitchment of the fingers being minor or altogther metaphorical is its effect: the girl danced "AS THOUGH" she "were entranced", the trace of the actual french sorcery becomes a metaphor... Of course, "as though" could mean "because she was" indeed entranced, but need not necessarily mean this...

There is a potential article here :-)

3. What I desperately am now yearning for is the non-original Rosemary Clooney French refrain to see what it does with the story... (cf. the nun in a "The Simpsons" episode singing NEW French words to "Dominque", thus the third set of these). Won't the original translator upthread, or any other, oblige? The song is accessible on the www... The refrain is only four lines long...   

3. Mrr sans computer reinforces my point about the magicality of little French shoemakers in contes, and the to-our-minds excessive demands/force they make/employ. What is this other story with the giant bed and the river and where is it and can it be got in translation?

Sanjay Sircar

Subject: RE: Origin: Little Shoemaker (French/English/Italian)
From: GUEST,Mrr sans computer
Date: 12 Jan 13 - 04:46 PM

I thought this would be about the petit cordonnier who was the princess' only love and he asked her to sleep with him in a giant bed with a river flowing through it etc? This is a much more interesting tale, and I think I knew it in French at some point...

Subject: Chords: Little Shoemaker (French/English/Italian)
From: Genie
Date: 12 Jan 13 - 04:09 PM

Sanjay, what do you mean by saying you'd love to sing the song to the dulcimer "as set for it by the poster who wrote in here?

The chords are quite simple (basic 1-4-5, with an optional 7th thrown in). But I'm guessing you meant something other than that.