BS: What does patriotism mean to you?

Subject: BS: What does patriotism mean to you?
From: alanabit
Date: 05 Jul 08 - 04:52 AM

It's the last scene of the film. The hostages have been rescued. His face covered in soot and ash, our bloodstained, battle-scarred hero presses the weary heroine to his manly chest. Through the smoke someone raises the Stars and the Stripes and the hero blinks back tears as he salutes the flag as The Star Spangled Banner starts playing... It seems that there really are Americans, whose concept of patriotism is summed up by this sort of scene. I guess those people will never understand why the rest of us find it so very funny.
My hope (and belief) is that most Americans (and certainly Mudcatters) would be able to describe their patriotism in a more adult way. I would like to hear from you (and people of any other nation too) about what things really make you proud of your country.

Subject: RE: BS: What does patriotism mean to you?
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 05 Jul 08 - 05:14 AM

The Disparate & Thoroughly Un-United Counties & Countries of Great Britain, whereby Culture & Hist'ry are determined by factors both Geographical & Meteorological, though of course it is our ongoing fascination with this latter factor that truly Unites us as a Kingdom. Here in the North West, to quote Scott Walker, it's raining today. In a moment or two we'll be setting off across the Penile Boundary (sorry, WAV, but that's how I'll forever think of it!) to the North East where, no doubt, the sun will have his hat on.

Whilst in the North East we'll do The Toon (stock up on Stotty Cakes, plunder Spin, RPM & Steel Wheels, soak in the bloodier aspects of The Grainger Market, say hello to Isabella and her Pot of Basil in The Laing etc. etc.) visit family, head for the coast, dip the rock-pools of Saint Mary's Island, have a pint in The King's Arms at Seaton Sluice, and eventually wind up at Joe Crane's Come-All-Ye at The Cumberland Arms in Byker.

In the North-East they ask Where do you belong? Belonging is in the blood; we are are born belonging, and, in time, in belonging we'll all most surely die.

Subject: RE: BS: What does patriotism mean to you?
From: ard mhacha
Date: 05 Jul 08 - 07:17 AM

Coming from me you might not believe this, if I had my way I would do away with the playing of national anthems, period, as they say in the US and what an appropriate place to start.
In my few visits to my relations I was amazed at the extent the Flag and the Anthem were held in such a degree of patriotism by the people, I couldn`t help but get the impression of a brain-washed society.

In Europe there is not the same extreme patriotism as I witnessed in the US, there is nothing as bad as that awful,`my country right or wrong` nonsense`, get behind the President even if he is a fool, and our brave boys fighting the good fight in every country but our own.
Certainly the Brits regard their army as snow-white, guiltless of every crime they are charged with, for all of that, they are not in the same league as the US when it come to blind patritism.
The curse of humanity when carried out to the extreme.

Subject: RE: BS: What does patriotism mean to you?
From: Stu
Date: 05 Jul 08 - 07:31 AM

"Certainly the Brits regard their army as snow-white, guiltless of every crime they are charged with, for all of that, they are not in the same league as the US when it come to blind patritism."

Not all of us do actually.

Subject: RE: BS: What does patriotism mean to you?
From: ard mhacha
Date: 05 Jul 08 - 07:49 AM

Well, there`s a start, thanks Stigweard.

Subject: RE: BS: What does patriotism mean to you?
From: artbrooks
Date: 05 Jul 08 - 07:53 AM

So that's what it isn't, eh?

To me, patriotism is love of my country, even when its leadership perpetrates things that are wrong. It is the moral obligation to speak out against and to try fix these things, within a complex political system designed to assure at least some semblance of majority rule. It is the understanding that what I think, and everyone around me seems to think, isn't necessarily the majority opinion. It is the understanding that we are a very diverse nation, and that it is this diversity that has made us great.

Subject: RE: BS: What does patriotism mean to you?
From: Azizi
Date: 05 Jul 08 - 07:59 AM

alanabit, I don't consider the movie scene as you described it funny. I believe that the American flag and The Star Spangled Banner are symbols of concepts that are very important, concepts taht are very worthy of our respect, love, work, and sacrifice.

In my opinion, patriotism absolutely does not mean blind loyalty.

To convey what I think is most important about patriotism, I prefer to post an excerpt from Barack Obama's recent speech on that subject, and an excerpt from a recent blog article written by activist/journalist Al Giordano that I believe supplements those words:

"...it's worth considering the meaning of patriotism, because the question of who is or is not a patriot all too often poisons our political debates in ways that divide us rather than bring us together...

...some of those in the so-called counter-culture of the '60s reacted not merely by criticizing particular government policies, but by attacking the symbols, and in extreme cases the very idea of America itself, by burning flags; by blaming America for all that was wrong with the world; and, perhaps most tragically, by failing to honor those veterans coming home from Vietnam, something that remains a national shame to this day.

Now, most Americans never bought into these simplistic worldviews, these caricatures of left and of right. Most Americans understood that dissent does not make one unpatriotic...

...what makes America great has never been its perfection, but the belief that it can be made better… And that's why, for me, patriotism is always more than just loyalty to a place on a map or a certain kind of people. Instead, it's also loyalty to America's ideals, ideals for which anyone can sacrifice, or defend, or give their last full measure of devotion. ..

I believe those who attack America's flaws without acknowledging the singular greatness of our ideals, and their proven capacity to inspire a better world, do not truly understand America.

Of course, precisely because America isn't perfect, precisely because our ideals constantly demand more from us, patriotism can never be defined as loyalty to any particular leader, or government, or policy.

As Mark Twain, that greatest of American satirists and proud son of Missouri, once wrote, "Patriotism is supporting your country all the time and your government when it deserves it."

That's what patriotism is"…

Recognizing a wrong being committed in this country's name, insisting that we deliver on the promise of our Constitution, these are the acts of patriots, men and women who are defending what is best in America. And we should never forget that, especially when we disagree with them, especially when they make us uncomfortable with their words.

That's part of the American tradition. That's part of why we are proud to be American.
-Senator Barack Obama, "The America We Love"; 6/30/2008

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/06/30/us/politics/30text-obama.html?_r=1&adxnnl=1&ref=politics&pagewanted=4&adxnnlx=1215255845-6nqio

-snip-

"Yesterday, in Independence, Missouri, Senator Obama delivered this speech on patriotism, titled "The America We Love":

.."When was the last time that the United States had a president that understood, on such a clear and elaborated level, that dissent is the essence of patriotism?...

My duty to the causes I care about is not to cry that we've been victimized, or that "the sky is falling," or to play armchair quarterback shouting from the bleachers at the captain on the field that he must make his next play a run or a pass. Nor is it to yell, "I'm taking my money and support and game board and going home." It is, rather, to inform and organize greater public opinion to grow to see the issue as I see it, so that whenever he [Obama] may take office, he will have to deal with the reality that we have created with or without him…

Actually, I have to correct myself already: the highest calling of patriotism is not dissent. It is smart dissent, that based not on self-indulgence or the blurting of one's frustration's out in ways that seek to share the panic or the misery, but based on - even sometimes against great odds - building the objective conditions by which we will win the important battles worth fighting. We don't need any candidate's permission or endorsement of our issue or position to do that, and we sure don't have to wait for any politician to begin organizing the people to set him straight once in power. Ironically, we, the people have more leverage - if we organize - after a candidate becomes an official, than we do during the heat of an electoral campaign when he or she is so singularly focused on the goal of getting elected. And if we can use his own campaign as the basis through which to become organized, that much stronger will be our ability to move mountains when and if that campaign is victorious".
-"Smart Dissent"; Al Giordano; July 1, 2008
http://narcosphere.narconews.com/thefield/smart-dissent#comments

Subject: RE: BS: What does patriotism mean to you?
From: kendall
Date: 05 Jul 08 - 08:01 AM

Dissent IS patriotic.

Subject: RE: BS: What does patriotism mean to you?
From: kendall
Date: 05 Jul 08 - 08:28 AM

Azzi, you beat me by 2 minutes with "Dissent is patriotic."

Subject: RE: BS: What does patriotism mean to you?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 05 Jul 08 - 08:29 AM

Just a brief statement here, cos I'm off to the Mariposa Folk Festival in a few minutes...

Everyone feels a natural and deep love for the land they were born upon, and that is the source of patriotism. It's an extended sense of the love and loyalty one feels for one's own family and home and one's immediate surroundings.

A tribe or nation becomes a larger extended family, and the land they live on is the larger extended home.

Politicians naturally make use of that instinctive love in a variety of ways...some scrupulous and some quite unscrupulous. The fact that politicians use it to stir people up into going somewhere else and killing some other people who feel exactly the same way about the land they were born on is extremely sad, but I expect we will see a great deal more of that yet as feeble excuses continue to be found for opportunistic foreign wars of aggression.

Everyone who fights willingly for his country sees himself as a patriot...and those who protest against a war their country is waging also see themselves as patriots. This too is completely natural (since everyone is instinctively patriotic at least to some extent), but the people on the home front who oppose a war of choice are always accused of lack of patriotism by their government and its most enthusiastic backers. They may put themselves in considerable danger on behalf of what is, in fact, their way of expressing patriotism.

Japanese, for instance, who opposed their country's reckless involvement in WWII...or who had doubts about it...were in the greatest danger of being arrested, beaten, perhaps even executed unless they kept their mouths shut. "My country right or wrong" was a credo being pushed very hard in Japan at that point. Germans had the same problem at that time.

Always watch out for a government that launches foreign wars of its own choice...wars in which it is the attacker...and which brands all dissent on the homefront as "unpatriotic". Those governments imagine themselves to be bulwarks of patriotism and morality, but their notion of the concept is not based on morality, it is based on ruthless powerseeking and profiteering at the expense of other people's lives and property.

Such, I believe, is true of the American government in its dirty little wars in the Middle East...and its long record of imperial policies throughout Latin America.

The more dirty laundry a government is hiding, the more it blathers on endlessly to its people about "patriotism"...the flag..."sacrifice"...etc. Don't believe them. It's exactly what the Fascists did in Germany, Italy, and Japan, and you see how they are remembered now.

Subject: RE: BS: What does patriotism mean to you?
From: kendall
Date: 05 Jul 08 - 08:32 AM

Here's something to chew on:

" I pledge allegiance to the flag of the multi national corporations and to the profit for which they stand. One interlocking directorate under no government, indivisible with monopoly and cheap labor for all."

(Bruce "Utah" Phillips.)

Subject: RE: BS: What does patriotism mean to you?
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 05 Jul 08 - 08:38 AM

Who was it said "Patriotism is the last refuge of scoundrels", or some such?


G

Subject: RE: BS: What does patriotism mean to you?
From: Bobert
Date: 05 Jul 08 - 08:44 AM

Patriotism startes with love of one's own community and works its way up to state and nation and finally, in an increasingll tribalized world the earth and all of its inhabitants... When we love or neighbors and pull together we enhance our quality of life... To me, that is patriotism...

Think globally, act locally...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: What does patriotism mean to you?
From: Azizi
Date: 05 Jul 08 - 08:48 AM

The sentence in Senator Obama's patriotism speech that resonates most with me is that "[Patriotism is] loyalty to America's ideals, ideals for which anyone can sacrifice, or defend, or give their last full measure of devotion."

-snip-

If we are to be loyal to America's ideals, sometimes we have to take risks and dissent. And hopefully, our dissent will be smart [strategic, with an eye to the main goal and recognition of the short term and the long term consequences to that goal.

Sometimes we have to put ourselves "on front street" by speaking out and/or taking actions that we hope will make the American government and make Americans be true to it's [to our] stated and written ideals and laws.

For me, this is tied to the belief that we should make the world a better place than what it was when we entered it.

On a personal level, disregarding the dogmatic reference in the words, a song that partly exemplifies this for me is "If I Can Help Somebody":

If I Can Help Somebody,

[A. Bazel Androzzo, © 1945, Alma B. Androzzo]

If I can help somebody as I pass along,
If I can cheer somebody with a word or song,
If I can show somebody he is trav'ling wrong,
Then my living shall not be in vain.

Then my living shall not be in vain,
Then my living shall not be in vain;
If I can help somebody as I pass along,
Then my living shall not be in vain.

If I can do my duty as a Christian ought,
If I can bring back beauty to a world up-wrought,
If I can spread love's message that the Master taught,
Then my living shall not be in vain.

Then my living shall not be in vain,
Then my living shall not be in vain;
If I can help somebody as I pass along,
Then my living shall not be in vain.

http://askville.amazon.com/song-lyrics-pass-living-vain/AnswerDetails.do?requestId=9796927&responseId=9797124

Subject: RE: BS: What does patriotism mean to you?
From: George Papavgeris
Date: 05 Jul 08 - 08:49 AM

Most of my beliefs on the subject have been stated already, and probably better than I could have done it. It is a subject that has concerned me a lot over the years given my background, examining my own loyalties and whether they ought to be divided or simply co-exist (I chose the latter).

I think my patriotism is culture-based, and not geographical or political.

Any geographical implications are simply a result of coincidence, as culture congregates in (or originated from) a particular area, and they resemble the rings on a tree, the rings getting fuzzier as one ventures further away. So, I am proud to be Macedonian; and then Greek; and then Mediterranean; and then European; and then human; and so on. But the externalisations of my pride are all culture-based and couched in terms of language, sayings, history, customs, music, song, food, nature and so on.

And I like the borders of my patriotism to be fuzzy. Hard borders bother me, and that is why I find politics and government irrelevant to my patriotic feelings. Even the related symbols (flag, National Anthem) mean comparatively little to me, simply signs that there is a chance I might find like-minded people near them, but I am fully aware that I will also find there things and people I do not like.

The etymology of the word (from "pater"-father, i.e. "love of fatherland") is also midly repellant to me, as it is exclusive, it defines hard limits.

Should ever England and Greece go to war I'll be the first to be killed, in the middle, still trying to negotiate a settlement.

Subject: RE: BS: What does patriotism mean to you?
From: Azizi
Date: 05 Jul 08 - 08:53 AM

Oh I did it again! I'm so sorry. Could a moderator please remove the bold except for the song title? Thank you. From now on I promise to be more careful about how I type in those font commands.

Subject: RE: BS: What does patriotism mean to you?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 05 Jul 08 - 09:11 AM

I was sitting in an hotel in Blackpool last weekend, talking to somebody I didn't really know. A boyfriend of one of my wife's friends.

I love Blackpool for its association with George Formby, Gracie Fields, cos my Grandma went there on her honeymoon in 1903, and the Oyster bar she visited is still there, and the pub where they had variety acts - Uncle Tom's Cabin.

Also I love Blackpool for its association with George Joseph Smith.
(In 1913 George visited Blackpool with his new bride. They walked down Adelaide Road together - they didn't stop at the first guest house - because it didn't have a bath. Anyway he took his new wife to a hotel in Regents Road and drowned her in the bath there.)

The English classic murder makes me feel intensely patriotic. We have a much better class of murderer than most other places. i was even moved to write a song about George.
http://bigalwhittle.co.uk/id22.html

Anyway back to last weekend. This guy I was talking to, tells me he was a cook in the army.
he said, You ever heard of the SAS man, Nairac?
I said, yes i've heard of him.....
You know, I served him last meal before he went out on his mission and got killed.

The story he told me was that Nairac was working undercover - he had this cover story that he was a busker hanging round IRA pubs and trying to pick up intelligence.

I said, you gotta be joking - hey'd sus him in three seconds, and I started laughing.....
Of course they did, but that's the kind of idiots that the officers were - to come up with an idea like that.....

I don't know if the story is true. It contains so many elements of why patriotism is a complex business. How one's country and its leaders has one holding ones head in ones hands in despair, and laughing out loud.

The truth is,we have to love our countries, because they are so much a part of what we are.

Subject: RE: BS: What does patriotism mean to you?
From: Riginslinger
Date: 05 Jul 08 - 09:17 AM

The patriotism of Irish Republicans is a whole thing to itself, in a way. It's the kind of thing one can kind of look into from the outside, assuming you're not an Irish Republican.

Subject: RE: BS: What does patriotism mean to you?
From: Peace
Date: 05 Jul 08 - 09:25 AM

"Lay of the Last Minstrel (Extract)

Breathes there the man, with soul so dead,
Who never to himself hath said,
This is my own, my native land!
Whose heart hath ne'er within him burn'd,
As home his footsteps he hath turn'd,
From wandering on a foreign strand!
If such there breathe, go, mark him well;
For him no Minstrel raptures swell;
High though his titles, proud his name,
Boundless his wealth as wish can claim;
Despite those titles, power, and pelf,
The wretch, concentred all in self,
Living, shall forfeit fair renown,
And, doubly dying, shall go down
To the vile dust, from whence he sprung,
Unwept, unhonour'd, and unsung."

Scott's poem--although usually just the Sixth Canto--is so well known that it almost doesn't require attribution. That said, I wish to echo my friend, ard.

In recent years there has be a resurgence of schools playing the Canadian National Anthem each day in an effort to increase that cheapest of all patriotisms: nationalism. It is that that breeds a shallow understanding of patriotism in our children, and perforce in our future.

When I think of this country I think of our relative freedom and the responsibility that goes with it. I think of a general officer who told both the UN and his bosses in Ottawa that 'No, we are staying in Rwanda because if we leave the 20,000 people we are protecting will be slaughtered'.

"Romeo Dallaire who, as the former head of the U.N. Peacekeeping Force witnessed unspeakable horrors in Rwanda, as extremist Hutus massacred over 800,000 Tutsis and Hutus in the space of a few days in 1994. General Romeo Dallaire did everything he could, pleading for 2000 more peacekeepers to be added to his insufficiently equipped 3000 man force. If they had answered Gen. Dallaire's pleas, the U.N. could have stopped the slaughter of hundreds of thousands of Rwandans. instead, following the deaths of 10 Belgian Peacekeepers assigned to protect the President, his forces were cut down from 3000 to a mere 500 men, who had to watch as one of the most horrible genocides in human history took place before their very eyes. Gen. Romeo Dallaire, frustrated, and disheartened by the U.N.'s passive attitude, nonetheless stood for his beliefs, repeatedly confronting his superiors who did nothing to prevent the horrific events from unfolding." A face of Canada.

He exemplified what I think is best in the human character. He--more than most--paid a deep and steep price for my ability to sit back and be proud of this country I call home.

I can't recall the name of the American(?) who first used the phrase "sunshine patriot", but it is clear that it's easy to love one's homeland when things are good. However, I wonder where my country has gone when far too many children (in Canada) are living in a disgraceful poverty and Canada turns its face away. My good friend Beardedbruce has so effectively pointed out, and in doing so 'forced' me into writing letters that likely put me on CSIS's radar because it upsets me that we do sell asbestos products to countries and thus signify to the world that we like to talk the talk but we can get a bit short on walking the walk. And I look at Dallaire and look at asbestos, back and forth, and begin to appreciate a distinction between patriotism and--and what? Love of the good this country and its people can accomplish demands that well-meaning Canadians speak against our country when it does wrong. I think that should be the rule regardless where on Earth one lives. Sadly, . . .

As parents we have the responsibility ot shepherd our children until such time as they can successfully find their own way. We do that with love and the occasional "Are YOU OUT OF YOUR MIND?" I feel we are in fact the parents of our countries, and when our countries do wrong we have failed as parents. So lemme ask: when our kids do wrong should we support them in that? Patriotism would prompt me to say no.

This has been kinda rambling, but one word answers aren't adequate.

Alan, you start maybe one thread a year, but man they are awesome.

Subject: RE: BS: What does patriotism mean to you?
From: GUEST,Barry Devine
Date: 05 Jul 08 - 09:38 AM

This is probably not a good morning for me to comment upon the subject, as I'm tired and cranky from putting up with all my fellow American patriots setting off illegal fireworks all night, setting up a wild goose chase w/cops (and their sirens) throughout the neighborhood, numerous fire calls w/many fire trucks (and sirens), etc. Ah, the suburbs.

My definition of patriotism is that it is the nationalist equivalent of racism or ethnic or religious bigotry.

Knowing how extreme that would sound to the (obviously) patriotic people who post here, I wandered over to Wikipedia. The entry on patriotism starts out badly. Talks about love and affection for the "fatherland". Not in my world, thanks.

So I was relieved to read a bit further down under "Ethics of Patriotism", other contributions I could embrace as a view I share.

This is what patriotism means to me, from the Wiki article "Patriotism":

"The primary implication of patriotism in ethical theory is that a person has more moral duties to fellow members of the national community, than to non-members. Patriotism is selective in its altruism. Criticism of patriotism in ethics is mainly directed at this moral preference: Paul Gomberg compared it to racism.[2] The view (in ethics) that moral duties apply equally to all humans is known as cosmopolitanism. (In practice, many patriots would see treason rather than cosmopolitanism as the "opposite of patriotism".)"

Subject: RE: BS: What does patriotism mean to you?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 05 Jul 08 - 09:51 AM

"Love your neighbours", which goes along with "love your enemies" frequently the same people.

As for moral duties applying in the first place to those close to me, that seems inescapable. I do have a particular responsibility towards the people within my reach. "Charity begins at home" means that if, it doesn't begin there it won't in practice begin at all - and it implies that it certainly shouldn't end there.

Subject: RE: BS: What does patriotism mean to you?
From: GUEST,Barry D
Date: 05 Jul 08 - 10:10 AM

I think some defining is in order.

If you relate on a community/cultural level (as a few posters have said), you aren't talking about patriotism, IMO, but of communitarianism.

I think artbrooks and azizi are talking more about what it means to live in a pluralist society, than about patriotism.

And some people, I believe, confuse cultural chauvinism with patriotism too.

The simple definition of patriotism is, from Websters:

"Love for or devotion to one's country"

The dictionary definition over at OED is more in line with my thinking. When you type 'patriotism' in the search bar, you get three entries as hits: 1) chauvanism; 2) patriot; 3) jingoism.

The way I view patriotism in the US today is that it is being manipulated and abused as a form of nationalist devotion and warrior worship in the US warrior nation-state.

It is very important to remember the rise of patriotism coincides with the rise of the nation-state, and begins in earnest in the 18th & 19th centuries in Europe. It isn't a universal concept, shared by all peoples. Patriotism is the product of imperialism and nation building.

Subject: RE: BS: What does patriotism mean to you?
From: Alice
Date: 05 Jul 08 - 10:11 AM

dictionary - the showing of great love for one's country

Azizi, thanks for posting the quote, as I agree with Mark Twain and Barack Obama on the subject of patriotism.

When parents love their children, they correct their behavior, they give them boundaries of what is acceptable. Many of us speak up in dissent to our government because we love the country enough to fight for correcting the bad behavior.

Alanabit, you also asked what made us proud of our country.
The weird thing is, I was raised in my immigrant Irish family loving Ireland more than the US. Ireland had this idealized glow about it, the land that our grandfather had to leave, even though he was a patriot and loved Ireland with fervor. It was too hard to try to keep living there at the time. So we had this land we were not born in that was held up with love and devotion for its music, writing, culture, etc. With another grandfather who was a part of the labor movement in the USA, we grew up critical of America, but loving it with the hope that the government could make us proud of the bill of rights, the declaration of independence, and bring about more fairness and equality for its citizens. So, we were not so proud of America, as hoping it would improve and that it would accomplish the ideals of the constitution.

Boundaries, countries, flags. are merely human concepts. I'm a citizen of the planet first of all. The natural beauty where I live is something the USA did not create, but I am proud that beautiful places have been preserved, like Yellowstone and the other state and national parks. I'm proud that we have, for the most part, encouraged individual creativity, invention and research, and all the life improvements that come from the scientific successes.

Alice

Subject: RE: BS: What does patriotism mean to you?
From: GUEST,Barry D
Date: 05 Jul 08 - 10:21 AM

I couldn't tell where azizi's words left off, and Obama's began. I hated the way the Mark Twain's quote was used out of context. Makes out Twain to be an uber-patriot, when he was no such thing.

I found Obama's speech to be exasperatingly chauvinistic. I'm voting for him, of course. But he clearly has leapt on to the American chauvinist bandwagon for the general election, and (as you might be able to tell from my definitions of patriotism here) that really bothers me on a deep level. I really hoped Obama would stay above that fray, which appeals to the absolute lowest common political denominator is US politics I was truly hoping he would transcend in a post-Bush America.

I would also argue that we have never truly been a nation based upon ideals beyond nation building, expansionism, commerce, and exploitation of others. I guess in that sense I'm more from the leftie/Utah Phillips & Ewan McColl school. Which is very old school in folk circles these days, especially from the looks of the threads this week.

Subject: RE: BS: What does patriotism mean to you?
From: Jeri
Date: 05 Jul 08 - 10:46 AM

If we are not focused on ideals, it's because people have given up on ideals. Those ideals are what I can love, and the odd times they're put into practice.

Subject: RE: BS: What does patriotism mean to you?
From: Peace
Date: 05 Jul 08 - 10:55 AM

"I am the Lord thy God" is a good commandment--depending on who says it!"

I have heard that attributed to Bob Dylan.

Subject: RE: BS: What does patriotism mean to you?
From: Rapparee
Date: 05 Jul 08 - 11:06 AM

I'm going to do some more thinking on this and give a decent response later.

But it is not, at least for me, blindly following someone's dictates or bowing and scraping before symbols. It IS understanding and accepting what those symbols represent, and that requires study and thinking and if you can't accept the underlying meaning finding something you can accept.

An officer in the US military takes a unique oath: to support the Constitution, not the national leader but the ideas that are the underpinnings of the country.

More later.

(By the way, Alan: At least in the US military you couldn't clutch the heroine to your bosom at the same time you salute the flag. Regulations prohibit it and besides, and I can assure you that it's really awkward. Only in Hollywood....)

Subject: RE: BS: What does patriotism mean to you?
From: Donuel
Date: 05 Jul 08 - 11:07 AM

The two primary views on patriotism in the US are the historic right wing view of restoring values of time past and the liberal view of improving constitutional values for the future.

Recently a wide spread campaign was engaged by right wing shills in the media to demonize anti foriegn war liberals as; unpatriotic, traitors, seditionists who are either mentally ill or enemies who intentionally hate America.

This campaign came very close to a tipping point of massive civil violence. The historic social fractures in America along ideological, religious and educational class lines were targeted by shills like Rush Limbaugh. IT should not surprise anyone that the owners of America pay propoganda shills very well. Rush Limbaugh makes more money than Katy Couric and Gibson combined.

In my opinion the right wing actually abandoned patriotism in favor of blood money. The left wing were unduly intimidated and hid like children from drunk parents.

Patriotism became obeying the word of God as told by the President, a flag pin, signing a loyalty list, blocking free and accurate elections and shouting down anyone who dissented.

What still fightens me is how quick and easy people swallowed the kool aid.

Subject: RE: BS: What does patriotism mean to you?
From: GUEST,Barry Devine
Date: 05 Jul 08 - 11:09 AM

That's a good one, Peace! Now, who do you suppose said this:

"Man is the only Patriot. He sets himself apart in his own country, under his own flag, and sneers at the other nations, and keeps multitudinous uniformed assassins on hand at heavy expense to grab slices of other people's countries, and keep them from grabbing slices of his. And in the intervals between campaigns he washes the blood off his hands and works for "the universal brotherhood of man"- with his mouth."

Subject: RE: BS: What does patriotism mean to you?
From: GUEST,Lord Batman's Kitchener
Date: 05 Jul 08 - 11:16 AM

James Boswell tells us that Samuel Johnson made this famous pronouncement that "patriotism is the last refuge of a scoundrel" on the evening of April 7, 1775.

Subject: RE: BS: What does patriotism mean to you?
From: Big Mick
Date: 05 Jul 08 - 11:31 AM

Patriotism ..... man, this word really lives on so many levels. For the capitalist, it is a card to be played when one wants to cause the mindless, cliche driven, politic to kick in for greed/profit driven purposes. It has been used to divide average, hard working folks and cause them to vote against their own economic self interest since time immemorial. I have heard my European friends criticize the American style of patriotism, and to some extent (based on the criteria I laid out above) I have a hard time disagreeing. I never salute a flag, I never embrace the "my country, right or wrong..." style of patriotism. I flies in the face of intellect, and it flies in the face of living a moral life. But I do salute the principles that the flag represents.

Now there is another side to patriotism. I find it in the hinted at in the Webster's definition. I suppose, strictly speaking, it is also hinted at in the OED version, yet I find that a bit hard edged. I would take issue with the broad use of "one's country", though. I certainly love the land upon which I live. I love it for its geographic diversity, for its mountains, plains, and vallies (sp?). I love its lakes, rivers, streams. But that is not patriotism, that is love of place. I could love other places as well. Love of the place is certainly a factor in patriotism, a seasoning in the stew so to speak, but not causal. No, I would define patriotism, and I freely acknowledge that this is simply my definition, in a very active way. Far too many in my country allow their patriotism to be defined by words. I much prefer the living, breathing form of patriotism which is defined by the constant struggle to help this place in which we planted that same patriotism to realize its true potential. For all of the naysayers, many of them friends of mine across the pond, this land and its form of government, have created the most unique system of laws and governance in the history of the world. This country has the ability to heal itself and regenerate itself in a very unique way. Every four years it has a change of power without bloodshed. This is almost unprecedented in the history of the world. Real patriotism, as envisioned by the founders, lies rooted in our revolutionary roots. One can see the hand of them, and their vision in the documents they produced. Most of these amendments guaranteed the rights to dissent, even revolt, should the government get out of hand. One has the right, and I would argue the obligation, to get on a soapbox, assemble, criticize, work for regime change, work to change laws, enact law, push for referendum, keep arms, remove leaders and cause social change. The founding documents enshrined these things in a basic Bill of Rights. Every one of them, as a right, has an implied expectation of exercise of them. Because of the diversity of thought and motivations in a land of such multiformity, it is kept to very basic ideals. It is crafted in such a way, and has protections, so that the minority is not overrun by the majority, as much as this is possible in a democratic society.

So to me, the simple answer to Alanabit's question is that patriotism lies in agitation to change for the better, in using the system to allow us to always be moving in a progressive direction towards a better country, one that will evolve into its promise. We started with raw wood. We have stumbled, we have headed down wrong paths, we have committed great wrongs, and continue to do so. Yet we are still the ideal that is aspired to. To be patriotic, IMO, as the Founders envisioned it, is to understand that the United States of America is a goal, a journey, a constantly evolving experiment in the rights of people. They had no way of anticipating if this experiment would work, or what it would become. But their genius created a system which would allow it to deal with whatever came at it, as best suited the people who live here. Patriotism then, is the active involvement in the process, it is the demanding of the government by its people to be better, it is the agitation for the constant change necessary for the system of laws to best serve all of its people, it is in the pride to be called one of its citizens knowing that you are participating in one of the great experiments of all time.

I love my country and its system of laws. I love the land it sits on. I am so proud to be an American, in the context of service to its people. I consider my military service, my community organizing/agitation, my union organizing activities, and the songs I write of the people and issues to all be a part of that love. But mostly, I believe that my patriotism lies in acting among those I come in contact with to promote the true ideals that we are founded on. Just like Azizi, I have pride in the land of my birth, and I believe it is justified and worthy of my efforts and my patriotism.

Prattle machine, ...... off.

All the best,

Mick

Subject: RE: BS: What does patriotism mean to you?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 05 Jul 08 - 11:32 AM

It seems to me that one implication of "more moral duties to fellow members of the national community", in this context, is that a genuine patriot would feel a greater sense of indignation at excesses carried out by compatriots than at similar acts carried out by others - including adversaries.

When this isn't the case - which often appears to be the case - the patriotism of the people involved has to seen as pretty suspect.

Subject: RE: BS: What does patriotism mean to you?
From: Azizi
Date: 05 Jul 08 - 11:40 AM

Patriotism may be the last refuge of scoundrels, but true patriots are wrong to allow scoundrels to paint them as unpatriotic.

Subject: RE: BS: What does patriotism mean to you?
From: GUEST,Lord Batman's Kitchener
Date: 05 Jul 08 - 11:47 AM

I should have added, I fully agree with Samuel Johnson's pronouncement

Subject: RE: BS: What does patriotism mean to you?
From: Amos
Date: 05 Jul 08 - 11:52 AM

Can you actually love a "country"? Or os it a facile figure of speech for something else?

There are key core agreements that make up the foundation of the American national ideal, such as the beliefs named in the Declaration of Independence, and the implications of the original Bill of Rights.

Some of these agreements aren't written down, but are soaked up indirectly, such as the courage of frontiersmen or the sergeant who falls on a grenade for his fellows.

To whatever extent those agreements point a path to a better way of orgaizing our species into groups, they form the basis for my patriotism. I greatly appreciate the notion of the American Experiment started in 1776, and believe the country deserves great credit fr continuing to conduct that experiment.

I think "loving one's country" without being able to identify the factors you actually do love is a slippery slope to unthinking jingoism.

But the truth is, I do love a country -- this one. More than any other reason, because it once held enlightened rationality as an ideal, and may do so again.

Subject: RE: BS: What does patriotism mean to you?
From: GUEST,Barry D
Date: 05 Jul 08 - 11:55 AM

McGrath, I don't agree with what you are saying.

Perhaps we can all agree that when there is external threat to any group’s cultural, physical, or ideological survival or identity, this ideology or identity becomes internally stronger, often even when in diaspora--sometimes even more so within the diasporas (the Israel lobby in the US is a prime example of this, and support for Irish Republicanism to a far lesser extent).

I have a real problem with the idealizing and romanticizing involved in the 'love of country' patriotism, because it ignores the horrific aspects of patriotism. Really, truly horrific. Things our compatriots have done, and continue to do, in our name. We see the glorification of it on certain, very specific official national holidays, like Independence Day.

Sure I love where I live (suburban Denver). It is beautiful country, full of fantastic people.

But I live in a part of the world that makes the sort of romantic patriotism I see among conventional Americans, very patriotic. Denver has a pretty visible Native American and Hispanic American population, and 'patriotism' to them is couched almost completely in terms of the American military warrior ethos, or myriad, complex forms of radical opposition to it. Many of them "prove" their patriotism by being more gung ho than the most right wing white military hawks, who are constantly berating others for the betrayal of the "ideals" of the United States.

We're pretty much surrounded by the Teddy Roosevelt patriots out here.

Subject: RE: BS: What does patriotism mean to you?
From: GUEST,Barry D
Date: 05 Jul 08 - 11:59 AM

BTW, the above quote I asked Peace if he could identify was from Mark Twain.

Compare it, to the Twain quote used by Obama this weekend, and you will see why it pisses me off that Obama is jumping on the jingo bandwagon to get elected, and demeaning Twain (an original sin to a Twain worshipper like myself!) in the bargain.

Subject: RE: BS: What does patriotism mean to you?
From: alanabit
Date: 05 Jul 08 - 12:09 PM

Thank-you very much everyone for your thoughtful and interesting observations. I am particularly grateful for the way everyone has answered my original question and not descended into trying to prove others wrong.

Subject: RE: BS: What does patriotism mean to you?
From: Bat Goddess
Date: 05 Jul 08 - 12:19 PM

In the early '70s (era of Vietnam War) there was a notorious bumpersticker that said, "America -- Love It Or Leave It" -- implying that whomever did not agree with our involvement in that war should just leave the country.

That bumpersticker was countered by one reading "America -- Fix It or Forget It".

Linn

Subject: RE: BS: What does patriotism mean to you?
From: Donuel
Date: 05 Jul 08 - 12:37 PM

Barry, may I have your permission to quote Twain...please.

Subject: RE: BS: What does patriotism mean to you?
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 05 Jul 08 - 12:42 PM

Reading through this thread, I began to feel that there was little point in making any comment, as just about anything I could say, had already BEEN said.

However, I found that there was one idea in my mind that differed from the rest. If anyone else HAS said this, I apologise for not having spotted it.



For me, it is loving my country enough to be willing to die defending it from the aggression of others, but not willing to KILL at the behest of political masters who would interfere with the affairs of other nations.

It is being willing, verbally to defend my country, without denigrating other nations.

It is accepting that in the past, the government of my country has done some pretty atrocious things, but not being ashamed of my country for what MEN have done in its name.

Given time, there will probably be more, but I think that puts over the gist of my idea of what patriotism should be, and usually isn't.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: What does patriotism mean to you?
From: GUEST,Barry Devine
Date: 05 Jul 08 - 12:45 PM

Donuel, alanbit just thanked everyone for not making things personal. Maybe you could stick to that spirit?

I like some of what Obama said in his speech, am indifferent to most of it, and loathe the rest.

I'm voting for Obama not because I think he is great, but because the opposition is so god awful. NO ONE should be pledging loyalty to Obama or McCain. To do so very much misses the point of the democratic traditions or "American ideal" if you prefer, doesn't it? That we support the rule of law, not men?

The problem with partisan loyalty and loyalty to the person is the very problem the Revolutionary War was supposed to have addressed. Loyalty to the rule of men is loyalty to a monarchy.

Subject: RE: BS: What does patriotism mean to you?
From: Art Thieme
Date: 05 Jul 08 - 12:47 PM

Patriotism is a many splendored thing: It encompasses the individual need to be your own person and follow your bliss. To be a hobo or a free-spirit freeloader if you wish. To opt out of the damn capitalist money chase and choose, instead, to support your group and, in turn, be supported. To strive mightily to lean toward the good and to challenge the bad. To lean toward clear thought and away from wishful thinking in place of the clarity. To not abdicate the brains we are all born with. To get by without working---as in being a folksinger. (It was never a job--but it worked.) To get out there and feel the countryside and the humanity there and learn what you can as you experience worlds similar to the ones your mentors were drawn to. To not fly anywhere; to stay close to the earth and the people thereof. To learn from delving deeply into history and the story songs expressing aspects of that history that enlighten and shed valuable light on the sadness and numbing dumbing downward inertia that is powering things in these times.

And that's just some of it...

Art Thieme

Subject: RE: BS: What does patriotism mean to you?
From: Stringsinger
Date: 05 Jul 08 - 12:54 PM

Dissent is usually smart. People have reasons to disagree and in the case of dissent,
they must be thought out to be categorized as such.

Dissent is abolition, anti-war, pro-woman's suffrage, unionism (collective bargaining is a form of dissent), protest against forced child labor and was at the basis of American Independence from Great Britain. It is more American than apple pie.

Frank

Subject: RE: BS: What does patriotism mean to you?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 05 Jul 08 - 12:57 PM

I'm not sure you do disagree with what I was saying, Barry. Or perhaps its a verbal disagreement about the definition of the word. I wouldn't class an atrocity carried out "in the name as patriotism" as a patriotic act, but rather as a deeply anti-patriotic act.

Subject: RE: BS: What does patriotism mean to you?
From: Donuel
Date: 05 Jul 08 - 12:58 PM

Patriotism will continue to be repackaged and advertised in various ways to serve the group defining it.

Some will work and others won't

For example you will sell more toys named Tickle Me Elmo than 'Vibrators For Children'.

Subject: RE: BS: What does patriotism mean to you?
From: Bill D
Date: 05 Jul 08 - 01:03 PM

Since I was up pretty late last night, being patriotic by participating in American folk singing, food sharing and joke telling, I am late to the discussion...and most of what I would say has been expressed eloquently by others.

Indeed, patriotism MUST involve the ability to love one's country while being as honest as possible about its flaws; and by implication, striving to improve the bad while exulting in the good.

What is seldom expressed when patriotism is touted, is that in countries like the United States, (large and multi-cultural), there are SO many different ideas of what IS good and what actually needs improvement & change. The very openness and freedom we celebrate allows individuals & groups to disagree about what we should value & BE patriotic about.
We (in the USA) currently are reaching the end of an administration which has seemed quite narrow & divisive about how patriotism should be expressed and defined....and here in Mudcat, I have spent far more time than I cared to responding to "America bashing" in some reasonable manner. I worked very hard to remain "patriotic" and respect & defend and love my country while attempting to explain that most of us were quite aware of current temporary deviations from sane behavior.

Patriotism requires **being aware**...as honestly as one can manage, of what one's country is doing, what its history is, and what its professed values are. If most citizens did that, we might need fewer discussions about "patriotism" as a concept.

Subject: RE: BS: What does patriotism mean to you?
From: Stringsinger
Date: 05 Jul 08 - 01:06 PM

As an American, I feel that patriotism is the understanding of the principles of a brilliant document called The Constitution, although imperfect, it embodied a kind of idealism
of government that wasn't seen anywhere prior to its inception.

True patriotism is a knowledge of the implications of this document and an appreciation
for those who put it together.

The terms "Freedom and democracy" have become debased by those who use it to promote their own political ambitions. They are jingoistic footballs by people who don't really understand what they are.

"Democracy" is an ideal and is always in a state of evolution. It requires participation
as well as knowledge since it is based on the "law of the commons" which means that
it must be used in the service of the majority of people living under it.

"Freedom" is the right of every person living in a democracy to think for themselves
and not be dictated to by political or religious leaders. Jefferson expounded on this
at length. This "freedom" is at the core of patriotism.

Being a patriot doesn't mean having to fight or go to war to prove it. It is a form of
enlightenment in its true meaning.

I believe that the concern many of us here have for the music of our country is an outgrowth of this understanding, that it is important because it defines our values
found in our history.

Frank Hamilton

Subject: RE: BS: What does patriotism mean to you?
From: GUEST,Barry Devine
Date: 05 Jul 08 - 01:18 PM

I'm with you most the way, Art--but you lost me at "to not fly anywhere" and being tethered to the earth has never been my nature. But I have absolutely no wish to impose my nature to fly and soar far beyond the environs where I was born, and the people to whom I was born--upon you or anyone else.

Not to the point of a "Don't Tread On Me" Ben Franklin's mindset, which many Americans in colonial times did embrace. And of course, that is the current mindset of many Americans in the post 9/11 era too. Libertarians especially love to fly that flag, as do some reactionary younguns, who use it as a touchstone in their rock, rap, and punk music ethos.

I am more from the "Live and Let Live, and Harm None" school. I don't like the idea of having to "defend" turf. At all. So appreciate living in the civilizations of today where I have never been forced to do that (I was a tad too young for the Vietnam draft, thankfully). And I hate the hegemonic coercion in the post 9/11 era that has driven people to invent their own "brand" of patriotism, in order to be viewed as "acceptable" socially to their fellow Americans.

It makes me really soul sick, in this time of war, to read that Obama referred to the US as "the greatest nation in the world". We are not. We are the greatest nation builders the world has ever seen, perhaps. But that is another kettle of fish entirely.

Subject: RE: BS: What does patriotism mean to you?
From: GUEST,Barry Devine
Date: 05 Jul 08 - 01:26 PM

My last word for the day, as I'm on the way out the door. I see no need to be either a patriot or patriotic. I see them both as scarecrows and straw men, used cynically by an authoritarian ruling elite (the church, corporate, and founding fathers), to control people, land, and resources in a way that benefits them at the expense of those people, land, and resources.

In other words, I don't believe in any of it, and I am working for the benefit of future generations, and a day when it will be seen as just one more ugly aspect of the "way we used to be".

Have a great Saturday, folks. It's been a very interesting conversation.