BS: What does patriotism mean to you?

Subject: RE: BS: What does patriotism mean to you?
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 16 Jul 08 - 06:27 PM

For me, a true patriot would be one who loves his country and his culture, is proud of its achievements, while recognising, and objecting to its faults and excesses.

He would be one who can talk about his country without giving an impression of arrogance or superiority.

In short, he would, in his manner and deportment, reflect (as an ambassador), all that about his country which gave him reason for love, and pride.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: What does patriotism mean to you?
From: Joe_F
Date: 15 Jul 08 - 08:59 PM

By "patriotism" I mean devotion to a particular place and a particular way of life, which one believes to be the best in the world but has no wish to force on other people. Patriotism is of its nature defensive, both militarily and culturally. Nationalism, on the other hand, is inseparable from the desire for power. The abiding purpose of every nationalist is to secure more power and more prestige, _not_ for himself but for the nation or other unit in which he has chosen to sink his own individuality. -- George Orwell (1945)

Subject: RE: BS: What does patriotism mean to you?
From: Wolfgang
Date: 15 Jul 08 - 02:35 PM

I come from that generation of Germans for whom "patriotism" was a bad word in contrast to the immediately preceding generation whose patriotism excluded all non-Aryans and meant looking down at other nations. We did laugh when the anthem was played, we looked the other way when the German flag was unfurled. Though we looked sports and enjoyed German wins we never waited for the winners ceremony for it was too nationalistic for our tastes. We were in no way proud of the country of our birth.

President Heinemann said it best for my generation when he was asked whether he loved Germany and replied: "I don't love countries, I love my wife."

Horkheimer also said it for us: "Patriotism in Germany is so awful, because it is so baseless (unfounded)"

An older quote:

"The cheapest form of pride however is national pride. For it betrays in the one thus afflicted the lack of individual qualities of which he could be proud, while he would not otherwise reach for what he shares with so many millions. He who possesses significant personal merits will rather recognise the defects of his own nation, as he has them constantly before his eyes, most clearly. But that poor beggar who has nothing in the world of which he can be proud, latches onto the last means of being proud, the nation to which he belongs to. Thus he recovers and is now in gratitude ready to defend with hands and feet all errors and follies which are its own." (Schopenhauer)

I must say that I was completely surprised (18 years old then) when in Ireland in a pub to the last tune all people stood up. It took me a minute to guess it was the National Anthem.

Now, growing old, I somewhat hesitantly have a milder look at my own country (sixty years without a rebirth of the wrong nationalism did help here). I watch with a mixture of uneasiness, surprise and a little proudness a young generation who without embarrassment wave German flags during sport events and would say that they of course love their country and for whom patriotism isn't a bad word. But I haven't changed completely. I could say I love das Weserbergland, a region in Germany, or the lake of Constance (Bodensee) but I could never say seriously I love Germany.

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: What does patriotism mean to you?
From: Stephen L. Rich
Date: 11 Jul 08 - 09:50 AM

stigweard,

Quite right. The EU is a very different sort of entity inits nature and origins from the USA. It's a good thing, too. It illustrates a lesson that many of my countrymen and, sadly, most in the US Government have yet to learn -- that the US model is not for everyone and will not work everywhere.

Stephen Lee

BTW, my bad. That was a typo and shopuld have read "the EU as a whole". Sorry.

Subject: RE: BS: What does patriotism mean to you?
From: kendall
Date: 11 Jul 08 - 07:37 AM

Doug, I'm also wondering about the Supreme court vacancies. Obama is going to be the next president, and he owes the Clintons, so, I see Hillary on the court.

Doug, Doug!, someone get some smelling salts!

Subject: RE: BS: What does patriotism mean to you?
From: Stu
Date: 11 Jul 08 - 04:47 AM

"This cannot help but have an impact on the social fabric of each of the EU member nations individually and on the EU as a who."

If course it does, but the EU is a vastly different entity from the US, and it was founded for economic and (I suspect) military reasons and it's attempts at social enhancement have had mixed success and are the subject of vigourous debate. Even the idea of an EU president and a written constitution have been rejected by the people and there is some very intense discussion happening now about how to carry the whole thing forward.

In Europe we've long looked past our own borders and I think alanabit's viewpoint is very much a European one. We're not insular by nature and isolationism is (thankfully) a state few European countries have ever been able to achieve. Even at the height of the cold war Europeans were deeply interested and involved in each other's affairs, and now we are reunited, gathering new members into the trading block and we are experiencing the biggest internal changes since the end of WWII.

In my opinion, patriotism for the EU will always be a non-starter - it's not what it's about. The sovereign nations have lived together in peace and war for so long these are not simply regional differences in a disparate group people from varying backgrounds all mixed up and settling a (to them) new land as the US was, but countries whose people share a common history which dates back to before the last ice age, but who have very different languages and culture.

I'm very pro-Europe, but only as an economic entity to counter the steamrollering capitalist behemoths of the US and the Asian economies (there are still socialists in Government in Europe, though none left in politics in the UK), which the member states alone could not hope to stand up to alone. I'm no more likely to wave the EU flag than the Union Flag or any other national flag come to think of it.

Subject: RE: BS: What does patriotism mean to you?
From: Stephen L. Rich
Date: 11 Jul 08 - 01:05 AM

Alan,

    Many of the things that you have observed about patriotism stem from the fact that you are a unique man in a unique position. First, you are one of those rare few who is willing to understand that there is a world beyond the barrier of your front door. Second, you are an Englishman living in Germany during the early, and possibly most formative years, of the European Union. To anyone who is paying attention to what is going on about them it has to make one wonder about a few things. I'm assuming that's part of the reason that you started the thread. I'm also assuming (feel free to correct me if I'm wrong) that part of the question is not for the present or yourself but for what all of this might mean for your children and the generations beyond. Obviously, I don't have those answers. I do, however, have a few thoughts on what the past can teach us about what might be waiting in the wings.

A brief history lesson:
    In the years between the American Revolutionary War and the American Civil War if one were to ask any given individual what country they were from they would most likely answer that they were from Georgia or Massachsetts rather than the United States. People thought of their home state as their country. It was not until after the American Civil War that something resembling a national identity started to form. It was not, however, until our entrance into the First World War (on the world stage for the first time in common cause with other nations) that we started to identify ourselves as being, first and foremost, Americans. We have done so ever since.

    That is not to say that there are not points of regional or state pride (ask any Texan), or that there are no regional rivalries (ask any Oklahoman about the Texans). As a native Chicagoan I always get a small jolt of pride whenever any Chicago sports team wins a game (we do it so seldom that any victory is a thrill).

Back to the present (such as it is):

          The EU came about in a different way than the United States and is a very different political and economic entity than the U.S. It is much like the United States was before the passage of our Constitution. The exception, of course being that, the EU members have been sovereign nations for a heck of a long time and are in a much better position to maintain that sovereignty than were the thirteen ex-colonies. It is possible if not probable that historians decades hence will see the EU as the logical next step after the Common Market.

          Patriotism, however, is not a politcal or economic phenomenon. It is social in nature. You think of yourself as English. Your girlfriend and children identify themselves as German. The generations of your grandchildren and great-grandchildren will grow up with no direct experience with the world as it was before the EU. For them it will always have been there. This cannot help but have an impact on the social fabric of each of the EU member nations individually and on the EU as a whole. How they think of themselves, what they feel they are a part of, and what sort of geographic space commands their pride will, by the very nature of their experience, be different from ours. I have no idea how it will be different or whether the change will be good or bad. I suspect that it will be good given that it will stem from one of the most useful and productive things that has ever happened in Europe – the creation of the EU.


Just a couple of random thougths for whatever they may be worth.


Stephen Lee

Subject: RE: BS: What does patriotism mean to you?
From: DougR
Date: 10 Jul 08 - 01:29 PM

L.H.: I think you may be selling the voting public a bit short. I think people vote for a candidate because they feel that person will best represent their point of view on important issues. To me, the important issues in the next USA election will be high fuel prices, dependence on other countries for oil, the Iraq and Afghanistan wars, perceived problems with possible nukes in Iran, vacancies on the Supreme Court, national security, immigration reform, among others. I doubt patriotism has much to do with it.

Sorry for the thread drift Alanbit.

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: What does patriotism mean to you?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 10 Jul 08 - 12:43 PM

I would think that every nationality in the world has given lives to save foreigners on some occasion or another. Altruism is not limited to specific nationalities.

As for military intervention, that is normally done for some kind of unstated economic or strategic gains...while the public is told that it's being done for some wonderfully altruistic reason.

Subject: RE: BS: What does patriotism mean to you?
From: Lord Batman's Kitchener
Date: 10 Jul 08 - 11:24 AM

"Americans have given their lives to save foreigners'The last refuge the old"look what we've done for you" speech. Sorry that line's best before date expired a long time ago.

Subject: RE: BS: What does patriotism mean to you?
From: GUEST,Joe
Date: 10 Jul 08 - 09:59 AM

"Americans have given their lives to save foreigners. Cornishmen gave their lives to try to save Irishmen from a stricken coaster. I think that is something worth being proud of. "

In my opinion this is no reason to be proud of Americans, or Cornishmen, or any specific national group. Simply of the people!

Subject: RE: BS: What does patriotism mean to you?
From: Peace
Date: 10 Jul 08 - 09:01 AM

Firefighters do not give their lives willingly. I know that for fact. But there are times when they come out on the short end of the odds and that's that. Structures collapse, explosions occur, toxic gases exist. They can and do sometimes end up in dangerous situations. That goes with the turf.

Training helps overcome the instinct that says, "All in all, I'd rather be in Philadelphia." And training helps keep 'em alive.

Subject: RE: BS: What does patriotism mean to you?
From: alanabit
Date: 10 Jul 08 - 08:54 AM

Bill, with all respect, I asked what the word means to you. I appreciate that you like to identify the word with a certain definition.

I think you are probably quite right about the firemen, who did not think about flags, symbols or whatever on the day. I also agree that they would have gone in for people of any nationality, race or group. I don't have a problem with identifying that sort of heroism -and service to the community - with a form of patriotism.

I was trying to follow up Stringsinger's point about military service not necessarily being the litmus test of patriotism. Love or devotion to one's country does not necessitate indifference to others. I should hope it would mean the opposite.

Americans have given their lives to save foreigners. Cornishmen gave their lives to try to save Irishmen from a stricken coaster. I think that is something worth being proud of.

Subject: RE: BS: What does patriotism mean to you?
From: GUEST,number 6
Date: 10 Jul 08 - 08:12 AM

definitions of patriotism ...

"love for or devotion to one's country "

"love of country and willingness to sacrifice for it"

For the firemen involved on 911 ... their country was probably the last thing on their minds that morning ... it was there commitment and devotion to their fellow human beings (citizens ??)regardless of race, nationality what compelled them to their perform duty.

Let's not get the concept of patriotism mixed up with "good outstanding people"

biLL

Subject: RE: BS: What does patriotism mean to you?
From: alanabit
Date: 10 Jul 08 - 04:08 AM

It is pretty sad that some people identify patriotism/nationalism etc with antipathy to foreigners. That does not need to be the case at all. I think it is important to start by valuing the people, who are nearest to you - as McGrath pointed out earlier. However, there is no need for it to stop there. The military can be a good test of one's commitment, because it shows that you are prepared to sacrifice your life. It does not have to be the only one by any means though - or even the first one. The firemen, who raced into the twin towers on September 11 had every bit as much commitment to their fellow citizens. If that is not loyalty I don't know what is.

Subject: RE: BS: What does patriotism mean to you?
From: Stringsinger
Date: 09 Jul 08 - 06:39 PM

If patriotism is about military warfare, then it has no useful meaning to society.

Patriotism is not just being willing to go out and shoot someone for love of country.

I think that the real patriots are the people who contribute something worthwhile to
society and country such as artists, scientists and people in the healing profession.

Subject: RE: BS: What does patriotism mean to you?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 09 Jul 08 - 04:38 PM

"It is the patriotic myth feel good factor, which will trump the facts every single time."

Absolutely. When it comes to the Democrats and the Republicans, it is always the party that can most effectively use the patriot myth feel good factor which will win the election. It is the candidate who most effectively embodies the patriotic myth feel good factor who wins.

Raw emotion and general but quite vague impressions based on raw emotion will beat out facts with not much trouble at all in an American election, because it's an emotional drama, just like the dramas you see all the time on TV shows. Emotion always drives the plot. Facts just get in the way...and they bore people.

Subject: RE: BS: What does patriotism mean to you?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 09 Jul 08 - 04:29 PM

The sentiment of patriotism is essentially local or regional. As Yeats wrote "My country is Kiltartan Cross, My countrymen Kiltartan's poor..."

When nations are small enough, like many European nations, it can appropriate enough to use the term in relation to whole nations.

But when it come to vast political entities or empires, stretching across whole continents, some other term seems needed, because its not the same thing at all.

"Marriage" means something different when it involves multiple partners.

Subject: RE: BS: What does patriotism mean to you?
From: Donuel
Date: 09 Jul 08 - 01:18 PM

It means Nationalism that is primarily used and abused for purposes of the ruling class.

Subject: RE: BS: What does patriotism mean to you?
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 09 Jul 08 - 01:08 PM

Just to point out that JFK was a singularly ineffectual president. While he did outbluff Kruschev re. the Cuban Missile Crisis, he was also responsible for gwttung the US actively involved in Vietnam. His succesful programs were the ones executed by LBJ, after Kennedy was shot.

Subject: RE: BS: What does patriotism mean to you?
From: GUEST,Bored in July
Date: 09 Jul 08 - 10:17 AM

I like the article because it explains in a nutshell why Obama will win in November. He took a page from the Reagan Republican patriotic myth rule book, and made his life story conform to the "American Dream" myth.

This is why people who disagree vehemently with his "stands on the issues" (a voter myth?) will vote for him--the feel good factor.

His policy positions are very close to the Republican's policy positions, yet the Obama Democrats are absolutely blind to these facts of his candidacy.

This article explains why that can be, when it is the Democrats who, in recent decades, have painted themselves the "rational facts" party (and lost), and the Republicans have wrapped themselves in patriotic myths (and won). It is the patriotic myth feel good factor, which will trump the facts every single time.

Tables are turned between the parties this time, but it is still the same damn dangerous game, because the only thing it is effective for is getting elected. And truly, any well financed charlatan or snake oil salesman can cook up an effective biography rooted in patriotic myths. Which is why we tend to elect idiots instead of effective leaders in the US.

The only other Democrats in post-WWII America who were able to do this very effectively were Kennedy and Clinton. Obama's "American Dream" mythic biography has matched their (and Reagan's) mythic biographies nearly note for note. One would think Hilary could have done much better on this, considering who her husband is. But then, she wasn't born in "Hope" Arkansas.

Subject: RE: BS: What does patriotism mean to you?
From: GUEST,number 6
Date: 09 Jul 08 - 09:58 AM

Would one say patriotism is fanatism to one's country/government and is it about as dangerous as let's say, religeous fanatism? I would have say it is.

Good article Bored in July ... thanks for sharing it.

biLL

Subject: RE: BS: What does patriotism mean to you?
From: GUEST,Bored in July
Date: 09 Jul 08 - 09:07 AM

Interesting thread. As I read through it, the one thought that leaps out of my heat dulled, slow moving mind is that our chauvinism runs deep, whether it is for nation, place, culture/community (ie people), race, or religion.

The only thing that seems to run deeper is the impulse to rationalize one's own chauvinism as acceptable, and the chauvinism of "those people" (whomever they are to the specific individual) as unacceptable.

I don't believe it is 'human nature' to be chauvinist and bigoted. I believe it is learned behavior, like which way to wear one's hair or the manner of dress is learned behavior. It can be unlearned.

However, there is an interesting article in today's Chicago Tribune about this very subject. Titled "Why is the flag so important?", the link is below (I apologize for not knowing how to provide clickable links in this forum, but I'm a very infrequent visitor):

http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/opinion/chi-oped0709flagjul09,0,5401676.story

It talks about the myths that drive nationalist sentiments, and how they are exploited by partisan politicians to drive voters their way. Quite an interesting article.

As to what patriotism means to me?

Nothing. Not a damn thing. That puts me in the distinct minority here, apparently. It puts me in the minority among the general public too.

Subject: RE: BS: What does patriotism mean to you?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 09 Jul 08 - 01:48 AM

Nations are not necessary...but they are habitual. They arise out of people's tendency to focus on differences and similarities and then divide up accordingly into groups. People are curious about those who are different, but they're also usually scared of them to a certain extent.

Subject: RE: BS: What does patriotism mean to you?
From: Riginslinger
Date: 08 Jul 08 - 10:47 PM

"Imagine there's no countries
It isn't hard to do
Nothing to kill or die for
And no religion too
Imagine all the people
Living life in peace"

by John Lennon


                      Imagine there's no heaven,
                      Above us only sky...

Subject: RE: BS: What does patriotism mean to you?
From: GUEST,number 6
Date: 08 Jul 08 - 09:46 PM

why are they necessary?

biLL

Subject: RE: BS: What does patriotism mean to you?
From: Joe_F
Date: 08 Jul 08 - 09:30 PM

A recognition, based on plenty of evidence, that nations are, for the time being, necessary evils, and mine is, for the time being, among the most necessary & least evil.

Subject: RE: BS: What does patriotism mean to you?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 08 Jul 08 - 05:11 PM

Right on, John.

Ever notice that on futuristic science fiction shows an inhabited planet is usually depicted as a single, united culture? That's because that is the intelligent thing to accomplish eventually on any planet if its people are going to grow up enough as a culture to be worthy of journeying to other worlds.

And if there are many such worlds (as I think there may well be) then the ultimate accomplishment would be to unite them all in a friendly association.

But first we have to do that here.

Subject: RE: BS: What does patriotism mean to you?
From: GUEST,number 6
Date: 08 Jul 08 - 10:09 AM

"Imagine there's no countries
It isn't hard to do
Nothing to kill or die for
And no religion too
Imagine all the people
Living life in peace"

by John Lennon


..... biLL

Subject: RE: BS: What does patriotism mean to you?
From: freda underhill
Date: 08 Jul 08 - 08:45 AM

It's late, and I'm very tired. I've been writing a submission about some dangerous things our government did, motivated by patriotism.

but, here are some good quotes about such negative aspects of patriotism...

George Jean Nathan:
Patriotism is a arbitrary veneration of real estate above principles.

Goethe:
Patriotism ruins history.

Hermann Goering:
Naturally the common people don't want war; neither in Russia, nor in England, nor in America, nor in Germany. That is understood. But after all, it is the leaders of the country who determine policy, and it is always a simple matter to drag the people along, whether it is a democracy, or a fascist dictatorship, or a parliament, or a communist dictatorship. Voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is to tell them they are being attacked, and denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism and exposing the country to danger. It works the same in any country. quote verified at snopes.com

Howard Thurman:
During times of war, hatred becomes quite respectable, even though it has to masquerade often under the guise of patriotism.

'night all

freda

Subject: RE: BS: What does patriotism mean to you?
From: Stu
Date: 08 Jul 08 - 05:27 AM

100 - bostin!

Subject: RE: BS: What does patriotism mean to you?
From: Stu
Date: 08 Jul 08 - 05:24 AM

After reading Alanabit's post I realised it looks like I was saying I was born in Wales - I wasn't, but this was part of the point and I think I wasn't clear enough.

I was born in Winchester, moved to a town just outside Birmingham just before I was two and was brought up there until a traumatic move to a town south of Manchester when I had just turned 16, so this would make me English by birth (although I consider myself a Brummie first and foremost).

The reason for doing the family history was because my family had such a strong Welsh cultural bias and for my Mum and I it was always a very important part of our upbringing, and I wanted to find out for certain where we had come from. The sense of Welsh identity was so much more defined than the sense of Englishness on my Dad's side - as though there was a firmer base so to speak.

All I have discovered on this so far fantastic journey has confirmed my views on patriotism and it's consequences. I am connecting with aspects of my Welsh heritage I have never been able to - the music, language (which I've tried to learn in the past), the stories and poetry in this the most oppressed of all the Celtic nations.

How do I reconcile these two sides of my family? Well, not through patriotism, unless I want to take sides and deny either my Englishness or Welshness. No, the common thread is the fact on either side my family were ordinary people who over the years have (like so many people's families here) worked the land under the oppressive gaze of the landlord and king, soldier and knight, parliament and government.

Subject: RE: BS: What does patriotism mean to you?
From: alanabit
Date: 08 Jul 08 - 04:04 AM

I have been reading and learning a lot here. People have been telling us what the word means for themselves and not what it should mean for everyone else. Thank-you, because that is what I asked for. The way you see these things is inevitably subjective, formed by your personal experiences, history and knowledge. It springs from a complex cocktail of facts and emotions – many of which can be contradictory. Many of you have described that very openly and honestly.

Stigeward's superb post encapsulated a lot of the complex feelings, which I also have for my native land – although I come from Cornwall originally. Cornwall is even smaller than Wales and its native language disappeared with Dolly Pentreath two and a half centuries ago – largely as result of the systematic destruction of its "non English" culture. To many countries, the Union Jack was a symbol of imperialism, exploitation and suppression. Like all empires, that exploitation began at home.

Yet the community and the land of Cornwall feel palpably mine somehow. It's a way of life, which I understand and when I stand on Bodmin Moor or Kit Hill or the banks of the Lhyner, I love the very stones and they are part of me. I don't feel that same way about England, although I revere parts of the history and am blessed with (an albeit very imperfect) knowledge of its literature, music and culture.

Fate made me a busker, a songwriter and now a teacher and I have lived most of my adult life in Germany and travelled around Central Europe. My girlfriend is German. My children, the irreplaceable treasure of my life, speak German to me. I admire this country with its basically liberal and fair outlook. Its human rights record since the war shames that of most other countries. It has learned from the past and worked hard to face up to its imperfections. Germans can suffer sporting disappointment and react with a cheerful and fair, "Well done!" to their opponents. The Germans gave the world the "Wohlstand", which in my opinion is one of the most significantly decent and realistic concepts, which has actually been carried out in the history of our planet. Yet with all this to admire, I will never be German.

I understand (as much as anyone can) why my country was one of those at war with Germany just over half a century ago. If you go back and read George's post about how he would feel about a conflict between Greece and the UK, you will understand exactly about how I feel about the UK and Germany. I want our football team to beat theirs. I also want to watch the game together and drink with the Germans before and after.

For me patriotism starts with loving the people where I came from. What makes me proud of my country is the way the people reacted to the Penlee Lifeboat Disaster. The day after eight local men lost their lives, trying to save strangers from a stricken Irish coaster, thousands volunteered to take their place. This is as different to the brutal jingoism of "Ingerland, Ingerland" from racist thugs as one can get. Kindness and generosity to strangers makes me proud of my country. We don't always get it right and we have done many horrible things along the road. We are no better than anyone, but we are as good as anyone. That is the sort of patriotism I wish to embrace.

Please excuse this long and rambling post. I am very grateful for all those, who have taken the time to illustrate so beautifully what it all means for you.

Subject: RE: BS: What does patriotism mean to you?
From: Peace
Date: 07 Jul 08 - 06:09 PM

"Death behind vs. possible death before: take your pick."

May I have what's behind door number three please, Rapaire?

Subject: RE: BS: What does patriotism mean to you?
From: Rapparee
Date: 07 Jul 08 - 06:08 PM

Don't forget that the Russians (and probably others) used prisoners as shock troops -- leading the charge, provided with weapons and ammunition just before the charge, and if they didn't attack or retreated they were shot. Death behind vs. possible death before: take your pick.

Subject: RE: BS: What does patriotism mean to you?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 07 Jul 08 - 02:41 PM

Weelittledrummer - I don't think it's exactly accurate to say that those 20 million Russians died in WWII for "Soviet Communism". That just happened to be the government and system that was in power at the time. They did not die for an "ism", they died for Mother Russia....for their homeland...for their families and homes and all that they ever knew. They would have done the same if any other "ism" had been in charge of Russia at the time.

Likewise, most of the Germans who died did not die for Naziism, in my opinion. They died for Germany, for their nation, for their ancient traditions and loyalties, for the families and towns that were at their backs...as well as for the men in their unit or on their ship who fought beside them.

It's always that way. People fight for their national identity, their homes and families, and their brothers in arms. And THAT is the heart of what truly is patriotism.

The governments and the political masters and their propaganda come and go like masks over a face, and they are soon replaced by new ones...but the nation itself remains as a true and living thing that goes deep into the hearts of its people.

Subject: RE: BS: What does patriotism mean to you?
From: CarolC
Date: 07 Jul 08 - 01:51 PM

"Patriotism" is a word, like "worship", that has no meaning to me. My first allegiance is to my concept of Divinity, and because I believe that there is no separation between the creator and the created, I don't see any greater value in one part of creation over another, or in one inhabitant of the creation over another.

I feel very fortunate to be able to have a relatively good standard of living (though I would feel even more fortunate if I had access to medical care), but I know that I could have that (and access to medical care) in some other countries, so I don't see myself as living in the best country in the world... just one of the best when it comes to standard of living. I don't think I feel any freer in the US than I would feel if I lived in any number of other industrialized countries. I definitely feel freer when I'm in Canada than I do here in the US.

But as has been mentioned already, when the country of one's birth is in trouble, sometimes it's better to stick around and help make things better than to go elsewhere and wait for the trouble to catch up with you.

Subject: RE: BS: What does patriotism mean to you?
From: Peter K (Fionn)
Date: 07 Jul 08 - 12:31 PM

As if my post above were not already over-long, I must add a sentence that I somehow lost from the end of the paragraph that begins: "That national pride does not come naturally...." Here it is:

They rely in varying degrees on braiwashing and the manipulation of crowd behaviour.

Subject: RE: BS: What does patriotism mean to you?
From: Peter K (Fionn)
Date: 07 Jul 08 - 12:23 PM

A timely subject for discussion, with the Olympic Games looming - and with them the 20th anniversary of those sensational Black Power salutes. The saluters, it may be recalled, had to be expelled from the games and from the Olymic village because they violated the Olympic spirit. What staggering hypocrisy! The Olympic Games are mired in nationalism for which there would have been no place in the original Olympiads. And it's not just the national anthems. Whether in Hitler's propaganda coup of 1936, the cold-war boycotts or the present Chinese baton-trailing farce, the whole circus is riddled with nationalistic self-interests.

I'm a bit uneasy about the loyalty Kendall and Co claim for their country, for the same reason that I am a bit uneasy about the Mark Twain quote used by Azizi: "Patriotism is supporting your country all the time..." If some guy is fundamentally opposed his/her a country's leadership, and the leadership is representative of majority opinion, how then does he support his country?

Well Big Mick addressed the government/country question pretty well for me. I agree completely with what ard mhacha said, and I also go along with weelittledrummer's general line.

That national pride does not come naturally is evidenced in the spectacle of American children reciting the oath like automatons. Or North Koreans revering their Dear Leader. Or desperate Germans, after years of tasting dirt, rising to salute their fuehrer.

Nationality (like ones religion in an overwhelming majority of cases) is determined not by free will but by an accident of birth. How can we take pride in something that's beyond our influencing? Doug R is on more rational ground thanking his god daily for being born American. But in reality I suspect he is thanking God for having been born into privilege. He might have been less profligate with his gratitude if he had been born into deprivation and disadvantage, which is the fate for millions of Americans.

In 1980 my brother was head-hunted for an aero-engineering research job in Cincinnatti on a salary vastly in excess of what he was earning for similar work in the UK. As part of the enticement he was sent a local magazine containing nothing but real-estate ads. This rather parochial, low-budge product had a front cover entirely taken up with a photo taken from the bottom of a flag-pole, showing the Stars and Stripes fluttering against a clear blue sky. Across the photo, in white characters reversed out of the blue sky, a simple message was intoned: "Remember the hostages." This on the front of a local real-estate magazine, remember. On speaking to friends in the US we discovered that such reminders were ubiquitous across America throughout 1980. It was a major factor in deciding against the job.

I don't say hostages should ever be forgotten of course. But it's a trauma many countries have had to live with. Yet it is only in the US that national pride would require such an excess of maudlin sentiment for month after month, while many other of the world's traumas slide by unnoticed.

To those who see any merit in patriotism I would ask: is it a universal good? Or is it of merit only if ones country is (say) America?

Subject: RE: BS: What does patriotism mean to you?
From: DougR
Date: 07 Jul 08 - 12:18 PM

stigweard: That's a very interesting post. Thanks for writing it.

weelittledrummer: yes, I do remember writing you. Thanks for remembering that I did.

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: What does patriotism mean to you?
From: Stu
Date: 07 Jul 08 - 10:33 AM

This is a fascinating thread, but something ard said has been in my mind since I replied to it, and I think I finally might have put my finger on how it relates to me and this thread.

Ard said: "Certainly the Brits regard their army as snow-white, guiltless of every crime they are charged with, for all of that, they are not in the same league as the US when it come to blind patritism."

Form where Ard sits and given his experiences of the British Army, this might seem like a fair statement, but reading this thread and the amount of times the military has been mentioned I'd like to offer an alternative view of what patriotism is to me.

I am what many of you would call a typical Brit. Welsh mum, English dad, rumours of Scot and Irish blood in the family but unproven so far - basically a person of the Isles. I've been doing my family history and we're all Ag Labs - until the railways appeared and my great-grandfather (who knew the plough) did what the chap in Nic Jones' song did and left the land and went and worked the on the technological wonder of the day, the railway.

In mid-Wales, my family were prevented from owning the land they worked by a system of bringing in Scottish farmers to run the farms that came up for sale. On a recent visit to one of the farms a great-great grandfather worked on in a forgotten corner of England on the Welsh border the current tenant (a loverly chap, happy to let me look around) was himself a descendant of one of these very interlopers. Gradually, the land my families worked on was taken away under the Acts of Enclosure that finally dispossessed the people of the land their ancestors had farmed and grazed on since they had settled after the last ice age. They were forced into working on large estates and finally off the land altogether and into the urban working-class ghettos of the big cities and industrial areas.

The oppression metered out by The British Empire and the regimes before it has caused as much suffering to it's own poor as it has those of the countries it conquered. Like so many families, my family were people of the land who have been forced to abandon their birthright so rich people could become richer. The governments that oppressed those cultures they invaded so ruthlessly were also oppressing their own people here, and continue to do so, eroding our basic freedoms and waging war in our name on people we shouldn't be fighting.

It's often argued the English don't have the heart for rebellion, but this is untrue and the history of England has many examples of ordinary people rising up against the oppresive ruling classes.

From the days of Eadric the Wild refusing to submit to the rule of William the Bastard, Wat Tyler and the Peasant's Revolt against the Poll Tax and their ancestors rioting in London as Thatcher imposed her own version of this unfair and hated tax 800 years later, Winstanley and the Diggers - still beyond their time now, over 250 years after the government of the time brutally put down these peaceful revolutionaries protest, from the Tolpuddle Martyrs deported for fighting for their rights and the protesters butchered at Peterloo in Manchester for seeking fair representation in the parliament that had spent so long oppressing them, Luddites and Levellers, Marx and Engels inspired to write the Communist manifesto in Cheetham Library, the miners, steelworkers and shipbuilders who fought for their communities on the face of heartless and despicable industry management and ministers.

Here is where my loyalties lay, and in many ways it goes against the very idea of patriotism. I don't feel tingly when I see a Union flag, I feel sick and the national anthem is the antithesis of how I feel about the Royal Family and their parasitic relations. I don't subscribe to being British and I don't care for Tories or New Labour or BNP or Lib Dems or any of those self-interested maggots who want to run the ever-dissolving Union. I'm tired of the politics. I hate cricket.

I do feel tingly when I think of how the ordinary men and women of the home countries have struggled and survived despite the odds stacked against them. The music, stories, accents and languages are the birthrights we haven't been dispossessed of and they are priceless. I go back to the country my family farmed in- land which is in my DNA and I get tingly, I stand on the Atlantic coasts of our islands feeling the might of the ocean in front of me and the depth and history of the land behind me and get tingly, I walk in the woods and fields near my home and watch the rooks and jackdaws loop and whiffle to the roost - this is my home and I love it.

And that might just be worth fighting for.

Subject: RE: BS: What does patriotism mean to you?
From: Rapparee
Date: 07 Jul 08 - 09:22 AM

I agree with you, Kendall.

I deliberately phrased the question the way I did and admit that phrased that way it's a loaded question.

Subject: RE: BS: What does patriotism mean to you?
From: kendall
Date: 07 Jul 08 - 08:54 AM

The question is silly. I'm not willing to die for anything, but I sure as hell would put myself in harm's way to protect my country and my loved ones.

Subject: RE: BS: What does patriotism mean to you?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 07 Jul 08 - 04:20 AM

If what you were willing to die for, was the lodestone, then Soviet Communism would probably be the winner. Twenty million people died for that in WW2 alone.

Its surely more a question of what we live for and the way we live. the way our country has shaped us.

Looking back on the deprivation and starvation that my fanily went through in the 1920's and before the First world war, I'm not sure why my family thought the place was worth fighting for. But the country must have imparted something to them that made them willing to fight, and more importantly - willing to struggle with life and try to achieve something.

Subject: RE: BS: What does patriotism mean to you?
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 07 Jul 08 - 03:37 AM

""Subject: RE: BS: What does patriotism mean to you?
From: Rapaire - PM
Date: 06 Jul 08 - 11:30 PM

I think that defining "patriotism" also leads to the question "What ideals, what or who in general, are you willing to die for?""



For the right to lead the life I was brought up to, embracing the culture and heritage of my ancestors. For the freedom of my family, and the families of others, to live without fear and oppression, and possibly for the rights of those in other countries to do the same (but ONLY if invited, by those people, to do so).

As you can see, a very short list. I would never be prepared to die out of loyalty to any MAN, or any political movement.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: What does patriotism mean to you?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 07 Jul 08 - 12:29 AM

great! I found your website!

http://weldonalley.ca/bio/biography.html

Subject: RE: BS: What does patriotism mean to you?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 07 Jul 08 - 12:23 AM

a challenging and interesting song. I enjoyed it. I'd like to hear more of your work.

Subject: RE: BS: What does patriotism mean to you?
From: Rapparee
Date: 06 Jul 08 - 11:30 PM

I think that defining "patriotism" also leads to the question "What ideals, what or who in general, are you willing to die for?" And don't give me that Patton crap of "Let the other sonofbitch die for his country."

If you were put to the test RIGHT NOW, what would you be willing to die for? Your country's leader? Your neighbor? Because it's expected of you? What your country says it stands for? For your religious beliefs? Your Martin D-28? Your children? Your spouse? For a child you don't know?

Subject: RE: BS: What does patriotism mean to you?
From: Peace
Date: 06 Jul 08 - 10:48 PM

Love the song, John.

Subject: RE: BS: What does patriotism mean to you?
From: john f weldon
Date: 06 Jul 08 - 10:08 PM

Beer..
October 06, I believe...
JFW