BS: What does patriotism mean to you?

Subject: RE: BS: What does patriotism mean to you?
From: Beer
Date: 06 Jul 08 - 09:54 PM

John,
When did you record this?
Adrien

Subject: RE: BS: What does patriotism mean to you?
From: john f weldon
Date: 06 Jul 08 - 08:50 PM

A Northern view...

land of the free

Subject: RE: BS: What does patriotism mean to you?
From: kendall
Date: 06 Jul 08 - 08:44 PM

In my opinion, this was the greatest country in the world until 8 years ago.

Subject: RE: BS: What does patriotism mean to you?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 06 Jul 08 - 08:37 PM

Doug I sort of understand what you mean. As you know I even wrote a song about it. You wrote to me at the time I'd just written it. Remember?

a href="http://www.americasupportsyou.mil/americasupportsyou/america/music/land_called_america.mp3">http://www.americasupportsyou.mil/americasupportsyou/america/music/land_called_america.mp3


However you gotta face it. Young people are very biddable. And young people have always been ready to lay down their lives - sometimes for quite unworthy causes.

We owe to it to our sacred dead, really to concentrate on the worthwhile things that they died for. Rather than their scarifice. And when you get down to it - its really for all kinds of open midedness, craziness and diversity that makes our societies so hard to beat.

Subject: RE: BS: What does patriotism mean to you?
From: Bill D
Date: 06 Jul 08 - 06:46 PM

"False are the bickering reigns
Of honor, of homeland, of war
That nourish the torrents of hate,
and flow through the valleys of death,"

    "The Seasons of Peace" Bob Beers

Subject: RE: BS: What does patriotism mean to you?
From: DougR
Date: 06 Jul 08 - 06:40 PM

Patriotism: To me, it is exemplified by the lump I get in my throat when I see a young man or young woman dressed in the uniform of our country at an airport either returning from a dangerous place or going to one. Or a service man or woman returning home from basic or boot training or returning to report for duty after leave at home is over. It is the gratitude I feel for being able to live in a country where I am free to think, write and say what I please, a place where one can disagree with the point of view of another and still be friends. It is the freedom to travel wherever I please within the borders of my country without having to produce a passport or a driver's license to some federal official.

It's the tingly feeling I get when I hear "The Star Spangled Banner" or "America the Beautiful" performed the way the composer intended it to be heard.

It's responding to your Country's needs when called upon instead of boarding a bus to another country. It is the sadness of seeing and hearing a bugler blow taps over the grave of a young person who has lost his or her life in the service of our country.

It's paying taxes when due to pay for our national security, federal highway system and needed social services.

It has NOTHING to do with political parties:Democrat, Republican, Green or Independent.

I'm older than most of the folks on this forum I would guess, and when I was young we were taught patriotism in our schools. We learned the pledge of allegiance at an early age, and we also learned to respect and salute our flag when appropriate.

I doubt that much of that stuff is taught anymore because one must be politically correct in these "progressive" days, and one must not run the risk of hurting the feelings of those who may or may not believe or feel as you do.

I thank God every day of my life for having been born in the United States of America and I'm not ashamed to admit it.

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: What does patriotism mean to you?
From: Amos
Date: 06 Jul 08 - 05:29 PM

When right, to be kept right, and when wrong to be put right.

Good essay, Don Firth!


A

Subject: RE: BS: What does patriotism mean to you?
From: Don Firth
Date: 06 Jul 08 - 05:08 PM

Good discussion! I don't think I'm saying anything that hasn't already been said here by others, but here goes anyway!

Patriotism. Tricky subject. I can understand it in a sense—a sort of affinity with the area in which random chance determined that one would be born, especially if one lived in that location for a time. But I have never understood the fanatical adherence some people have to a plot of land.

I have lived in Seattle off and on almost all my life, but I spent my first nine years in Southern California—Pasadena, to be exact. In the mid-1980s, my wife and I flew to Long Beach (which, like Pasadena, could be regarded as a suburb of the sprawling Los Angeles megalopolis) to visit friends for a week or two. When we stepped off the plane at the Long Beach airport, suddenly the feel of the air, the temperature, the smells, the sight of tall palm trees—I had this strange feeling that I had "returned home." My reaction when I got off the plane was immediate and visceral. Yet, during the many decades that I have lived in the Pacific Northwest, I can't say that I really missed Southern California. And when I got off the plane a week or so later at the Seattle-Tacoma airport, I had that same feeling I'd felt in Long Beach. I had "returned home."

During my grade school years in California, along with the usual curriculum (readin', writin', 'rithmetic), I was also instructed in a number of patriotic practices, such as the flag code (proper and respectful handling of the flag, when to display it, etc.), and was required to memorize such things as the Pledge of Allegiance and the words to "The Star-Spangled Banner." I received an extra credit gold star for drawing the American flag with colored pencils, with the Pledge of Allegiance carefully printed beneath it.

The flag, the Pledge of Allegiance, the national anthem, are the external trappings—the ritual—of what we refer to as patriotism. Some folks regard these ritualistic aspects as sacrosanct and never seem to get beyond them to what those ritual practices are supposed to represent (a not uncommon in other areas as well). I began to learn what these things meant some years later in high school. My American history teacher was excellent. Along with the usual high points, he did not shy away from such things as slavery and what led up to the Civil War, and treatment of Native Americans. He also taught civics classes, in which we studied the Constitution and the Bill of Rights. One important lesson that came across was that when the country went wrong, it was generally because it failed to observe the principles stated in the Constitution and Bill of Rights.

If one is well-acquainted with the Constitution, a little gimlet-eyed observation reveals that some of our elected national leaders, despite taking an oath to preserve and protect the Constitution upon entering office, did not and do not always abide by that oath. This was (is) generally in order to benefit some private interests with which they were associated or to which they felt some obligation. In fact, it often appears to be something of a game. How far can they depart from the Constitution and the Bill of Rights before the citizens noticed and protested?

Well—quite a distance, it appears. Lobbying has become a commonly accepted practice in American politics. For "lobbying," read "bribery." Why is this tolerated?

I kept hearing that "America is the greatest country in the world." And, indeed, it has some fine achievements in its history. The stated principles on which the country was founded are admirable—and were indeed ground-breaking at the time they were adopted. But if one examines aspects of the country's history that most high school teachers are reluctant to talk about, and if one is aware of the continuing revelations from "whistle-blowers" about how some of our elected officials and our government agencies really operate, it more than establishes that "the greatest country in the world" has a very dark side. That dark side, motivated by greed and power-lust, callously disregards the plight of the country's weakest and neediest citizens in order to pander to the richest and most powerful. And it engages in bullying and exploitive behavior toward other countries around the world, and then either conceals it or wraps it in the flag in order to hoodwink American citizens into accepting it, usually in the name of "national security."

This emotional mantra, "America is the greatest country in the world," blinds many people to the fact that there are older and wiser countries from whom we could learn much. For example, a comparison of the allocation of tax revenues that the United States government spends on such things as education, health, the military, etc., with what other countries spend is very revealing, especially if one also compares rates of infant mortality, longevity, the availability of quality health care to all citizens, quality of education, standard of living—and satisfaction with life in general (Denmark leads here), reveals the uncomfortable fact that, by almost every index, America can hardly be considered as "the greatest country in the world."

If we feel that other countries should embrace the "American way of life," trying to cram it down their throats with the butt of a rifle is not the way to go about it. First of all, we need to abandon that jingoistic mantra and do an agonizing reappraisal of just what our "American way of life" amounts to, and see how it compares with that in the U. K., in France, in Germany, Norway, Sweden, the rest of Europe, in other parts of the world such as Japan, Australia. . . .

There is a simple principle:   if we think other countries should embrace our way of life, then our way of life needs to be admirable and desirable enough so they want to embrace it. We should lead, not by force, not by admonition, but by example. If our hubris as Americans is so great that we feel like we need to be parents to the rest of the world, then there is a valuable lesson in parenting in a work of fiction:   To Kill a Mockingbird, by Harper Lee. Atticus Finch knew that if his children were to grow up to be moral persons, then he had to be that kind of person himself.

I recently heard of a small Central American country (one of the countries usually characterized as a "banana republic" ruled by a petty military dictator) where the democratically elected president and governing body determined that their relations with both their citizens and their neighbors were sufficiently stable and friendly that they had no need of military forces, so they disbanded their military and applied the money saved to improving their educational system.

"But we need our military!" you say. "Why?" say I. "Because of the terrorists! Because of the people in the world who hate America!" you answer. But I then respond:   "Perhaps we should ask the terrorists, 'Why do you hate us so much?' And then we should listen carefully to their answer."

The true patriot is often labeled by others as being unpatriotic. The true patriot is often confronted by the exasperated remark, "Well, if you don't like it here in America, why don't you go somewhere else?" Well, maybe that's not such a bad question. A lot of Americans are descendants of people who emigrated from countries that were tyrannical or oppressive. Many people emigrated from Germany in the 1930s. So that's always an option. But of course that means there would be one less person who sees what's wrong and can help attempt to set things right.

The true patriot is loyal to the moral principles and the stated ideals upon which the country was founded. Not to the elected officials. Especially when those elected officials stray from those principles and ideals. Elected officials, upon entering office, take an oath to uphold those principles and ideals, and it is the moral obligation of the true patriot to call them on it if they depart from their oath. And to keep calling them on it, in the company of other patriots, until they are either shamed into returning to those principles or are replaced by other elected officials who will.

On a travel program on the radio a few days ago, the interviewer asked a travel writer why it is that a particular European country's government seems to be especially responsive to the needs of its citizens. "Because," said the travel writer, "they have a long history of throwing out corrupt or unresponsive leaders. Elected officials are afraid of what the citizens might do if they don't toe the line."

A true patriot is not someone who is rooted to a particular plot of land. A true patriot is one who adheres to a set of principles and ideals. And when and if the country fails to live up to those principles and ideals, the true patriot takes a stand, cries "foul!" and demands that its elected officials either return to those principles or be replaced.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: What does patriotism mean to you?
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 06 Jul 08 - 03:55 PM

Never said it was good--or bad. Just trying to say what I think it means.

Subject: RE: BS: What does patriotism mean to you?
From: Art Thieme
Date: 06 Jul 08 - 01:11 PM

If hell has a religion, it is Nationalism---and possibly Patriotism -- way too often.

Art Thieme

Subject: RE: BS: What does patriotism mean to you?
From: kendall
Date: 06 Jul 08 - 01:05 PM

It's when patriotism and nationalism meld that trouble starts.

Subject: RE: BS: What does patriotism mean to you?
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 06 Jul 08 - 12:22 PM

The original quote was from Stephen Decatur, who said:
"Our country! In her intercourse with foreign nations, may she always be in the right; but our country, right or wrong."

A reasonable definition of patriotism, IMO

Subject: RE: BS: What does patriotism mean to you?
From: GUEST,number 6
Date: 06 Jul 08 - 10:39 AM

patriotism aligned with 'the military' raises an element of concern with me.

just my 2 cents worth ... payday isn't til next friday.

biLL

Subject: RE: BS: What does patriotism mean to you?
From: Stephen L. Rich
Date: 06 Jul 08 - 06:51 AM

Oh! One more thing (if you'll pardon the Peter Falk impression). There is a similar discussion going on in the thread entitled "Independence Day" .

Stephen Lee

Subject: RE: BS: What does patriotism mean to you?
From: Stephen L. Rich
Date: 06 Jul 08 - 06:47 AM

BTW, shouldn't that film scene, described at the begining of the thread, end with either the soldier or the girl getting a pie in the face?

Stephen Lee

Subject: RE: BS: What does patriotism mean to you?
From: Stephen L. Rich
Date: 06 Jul 08 - 06:45 AM

The best thing that I have ever heard said on the subject of patriotism came from an Englishman. From 1967 through 1969 Father William Casserley was temporarily reassigned from his home parish in the UK to St Giles church; a small Episcopalian church in Northbrook, Illinois in the United States. This was as all of the political and cultural insanity of the late 1960's were coming to a head.
    The battle cry, as it were, of the political right was "My country, right or wrong". Father Casserley pointed out that true patriotism might be better expresed by the words, "My country, and, God, may it please be right".

      Stephen Lee

Subject: RE: BS: What does patriotism mean to you?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 06 Jul 08 - 06:29 AM

I never realised I was so isolated in my view of patriotism. No wonder I have difficulty getting in sync with this traditional folk music business.

Subject: RE: BS: What does patriotism mean to you?
From: GUEST,Billybob
Date: 06 Jul 08 - 05:14 AM

Sounds like the same film at the beginning of the thread.

Subject: RE: BS: What does patriotism mean to you?
From: Bert
Date: 06 Jul 08 - 03:15 AM

To me, patriotism boils down to love of my neighbors. For some reason that includes those that I don't like too much.

I was sitting on the hood of the truck last night watching the fireworks and playing the guitar. When I started "This Land is Your Land" everyone joined in, I choked up and could hardly finish the song. That is patriotism for me.

Subject: RE: BS: What does patriotism mean to you?
From: mg
Date: 06 Jul 08 - 12:57 AM

Live and let live and harm none. Nice thoughts. The only problem is that for the forseeable future, there are others who will take advantage of your kindly nature and torture, rape and enslave others while you (generically) stand by and wring your hands (generically). mg

Subject: RE: BS: What does patriotism mean to you?
From: Rapparee
Date: 06 Jul 08 - 12:27 AM

I've stewed on this all day and here are some more thoughts.

Gk. patriotes "fellow countryman," from patrios "of one's fathers," patris "fatherland," from pater (gen. patros) "father," with -otes, suffix expressing state or condition.

Children are the most truly conservative people on Earth. They have to be, their present and future depends upon the care others give them. A child will fight moving house UNLESS the parents present it in the right way. The child will fight every change because the child sees it as a threat UNLESS the parents present the change in the right light.

A parent loses a job: "Mom, will we go hungry? Will be still be able to live here?" A parent dies or leaves: "Dad, what will happen to us now?"

The earliest form of patriotism is the self-protection of the child, for a child has its self-interest at heart. It has to because that self-interest means survival, down in the dirt, naked, survival. Adults only exist to help the child survive, from the child's point of view, and the child will resist anything that threatens the status quo.

As we get older our world enlarges: from the immediate family to include relatives (even Aunt Marge, who gives such big sloppy kisses at family gatherings), then the neighbors, then the other kids around us -- perhaps "our gang" or "our friends." And when one of the friends gets into trouble we don't "rat them out" because we are loyal to more than our family now.

Eventually we learn about our town or city, our school, our sports team, and God help anyone who badmouths them! Of course, it's not called "patriotism" at this level, but "loyalty" or "school spirit" or "team support." But it still is patriotism, for we have taken whatever we have taken as part of ourselves, made it "family."

This patriotism creates bonds that are incomprehensible to those who haven't experienced them. Those who have experienced combat -- who have cared for their wounded, dying, or dead friends; who have had those friends kill someone who would have killed them; who have shared their last bit of water during a firefight (combat vets will know what I mean) -- have a bound stronger than love. Cops, firefighters, EMTs, the folks on duty in the Emergency Room (and in Labor and Delivery), in short, those who have been on the front lines of life and death -- form these bonds. They might have a sense of humor that is darker than you can imagine, but it keeps them sane and reinforces the "patriotism" their jobs demand, because in these situations (and others) you must be able to depend upon those with whom you work.

Eventually we expand this still further and apply it to our country. It is here where the trouble starts, for it is here that loyalty to others can be manipulated for the good of a few or for one, a "tyrannos" if you will.

Americans apply patriotism to the ideals upon which their country was founded -- to the ideas written in the Constitution, and even the President is bound by an oath to that document (whether he abides by his oath is another story, and many have not).

I don't think anyone can love an abstraction unless you know what it really means. "Love"? "Country"? Bah. I love my wife and my family and I might learn to love you too, but not until I know you. I attended a reunion of the guys who were part of my National Guard unit when it was activated back in 1968 recently -- I "love" them, but not as I love my brothers or my wife, because I know I can depend upon them, they've proven themselves.

Where I think I'm going with this is that I do not "love my country", but I do love the ideals upon which it was founded by imperfect men trying for perfection.

And look what's happened because of what those men did: revolutions in France, in Ireland, in Russia, in China and in other places -- imperfect as the might have turned out -- were based upon the writings done in Philadelphia in 1789. I could even argue that a revolution took place in the US, starting when a woman didn't give up her seat on a bus.

"The oppressed should rebel, and they will continue to rebel and raise disturbance until their civil rights are fully restored to them and all partial distinctions, exclusions and incapacitations are removed." --Thomas Jefferson: Notes on Religion, 1776.

Unfortunately and all too often, We teach them to take their patriotism at second-hand; to shout with the largest crowd without examining into the right or wrong of the matter--exactly as boys under monarchies are taught and have always been taught. We teach them to regard as traitors, and hold in aversion and contempt, such as do not shout with the crowd, and so here in our democracy we are cheering a thing which of all things is most foreign to it and out of place--the delivery of our political conscience into somebody else's keeping. This is patriotism on the Russian plan. - Mark Twain, a Biography.

And In the beginning of a change the patriot is a scarce man, and brave, and hated and scorned. When his cause succeeds, the timid join him, for then it costs nothing to be a patriot. - Mark Twain, Notebook, 1904.

To be a true patriot requires work and courage. To conclude what has already become too long, a long quote, again from Mark Twain:

A man can be a Christian or a patriot, but he can't legally be a Christian and a patriot--except in the usual way: one of the two with the mouth, the other with the heart. The spirit of Christianity proclaims the brotherhood of the race and the meaning of that strong word has not been left to guesswork, but made tremendously definite- the Christian must forgive his brother man all crimes he can imagine and commit, and all insults he can conceive and utter- forgive these injuries how many times?--seventy times seven--another way of saying there shall be no limit to this forgiveness. That is the spirit and the law of Christianity. Well--Patriotism has its laws. And it also is a perfectly definite one, there are not vaguenesses about it. It commands that the brother over the border shall be sharply watched and brought to book every time he does us a hurt or offends us with an insult. Word it as softly as you please, the spirit of patriotism is the spirit of the dog and wolf. The moment there is a misunderstanding about a boundary line or a hamper of fish or some other squalid matter, see patriotism rise, and hear him split the universe with is war-whoop. The spirit of patriotism being in its nature jealous and selfish, is just in man's line, it comes natural to him- he can live up to all its requirements to the letter; but the spirit of Christianity is not in its entirety possible to him.

The prayers concealed in what I have been saying is, not that patriotism should cease and not that the talk about universal brotherhood should cease, but that the incongruous firm be dissolved and each limb of it be required to transact business by itself, for the future. - Mark Twain's Notebook.

Yeah, perhaps this should have been on MOAB.

Subject: RE: BS: What does patriotism mean to you?
From: Beer
Date: 06 Jul 08 - 12:26 AM

"Up standing member". Meaning you Gnu. Not me.

Subject: RE: BS: What does patriotism mean to you?
From: Beer
Date: 06 Jul 08 - 12:22 AM

This is a tough one. I say this because no matter what direction I go to I always come back to what our fellow man/woman has done in the armed services for us. And yet I keep thinking that this can't be the complete answer. Hell i never server. So why does it keep being there? In reading all of the above post I have to agree with all answers and yet I have difficulty in expressing why I am a Patriot. Because god damn it it i am. I love my country and if someone call it down I will fight(with words)for it.

Then two recent post on mudcat made me think that maybe i have some sort of answer. One post came in from our mudcat member "Gnu"on the "Happy Birthday Canada" thread. and here is what he said:


Well, it's been my experience that most of the Canucks I know are just pretty much plain folks. Having said that, I must also say that most of the Canucks I know are fiercely proud of their country's history, especially for it's service in war, it's service in peacekeeping, it's service in foreign aid... but, most importantly, for it's service to fellow Canadians.

Some of you know that my brother has been gravely ill for some time. He entered The Royal Canadian Air Force at 08:00h on July 9, 1961 at the age of seventeen and one half years old. He served until he was fifty five years old; he served in combat, in peacekeeping, in foreign aid; he served far and wide; for 38 years, he was on call 24/7... he was as tough as nails.

On Sunday morning, the call came from the hospital. It would not be long. He was comatose. I'll dispense with the details, but, my mother said he would wait until today to leave because he was an Airman, a Canadian Airman. He passed at 8:30 this morning. She said that the flag waving and singing and fireworks today would be for him. She's right. All of it is for plain old folks that stepped up to the plate and did their part to make Canada what it is, like my brother.

Yes, it is a day for flag waving and being proud to be Canadian. I am. And, I am so proud of my brother. One of my heroes.

Polite? Yes. Reserved? Mostly. Narcissistic? Some. Nice? Depends. Fierce? When need be... Fuck, Fight And Hold The Light. We go with the flow eh. If that's okay with youse eh?

Enjoy the day. And be proud to be a Canuck.


The other was also a recent post and here is the Guest submission ( I realize that Gnu came in as a guest but just forgot to refresh his cookie)


My brother was laid to rest yesterday. He was comatose for a few days, but he hung in there until Tuesday, Canada Day, like the true Airman he was for 31 years. All that flag waving and fireworks and such were for him and everyone like him.... just a regular Canuck that stood up and did his duty to make this country what it is.

He was laid out in dress blues with his first cap appropriately placed on the pillow. Canadian Flag to the left of the coffin, Union Jack and RCAF Flag to the right. A tank commander who fought from The Boot to Rome represented The Legion. A piper recently wounded 20km from Kabul played his final tune as he was placed in the hearse. (I teased the piper that he went the "extra mile" to be home to play for Bill.)

"Bill" was born January 9, 1944. His mother died July 20, 1945, from food poisoning after a lobster scoff to celebrate the eve of the due date of the twins she was carrying. The twins were lost as well. My old man was in England, training officer cadets at Aldershot when she passed.

Bill was taken by his maternal grandparents, whereupon my Gramma marched across town, walked into their house, scooped Bill up and marched back home, where he remained until Dad married Mum when Bill was seven years old.

Bill grew up in a rough neighborhood, mostly a mix of Irish and French. Both endured subjugation in their old countries which continued to some extent in the new world. Bill learned to fight at an early age and it served him well in the coming years.

On October 20, 1951, Dad married Mum and Bill had a new family. At the age of seven, things were a bit rough. But, Mum's a saint and she endured. I came along on March 7, 1957, and Mum endured, as did Bill... hehehe.

My earliest recollection of my brother was walking to the street corner with him when I was about two years old. He was on his way to school and I didn't want him to go. I tried to run out to catch up with him in the street and he had to run back and grab me before I was struck by a car. He took a car bumper in the face for me.

He used to tickle me until I couldn't breathe. I hated that. And he used to grab me by the wrists and slap me in the face with my own hands. Prick. But, the day I managed to punch him and make his nose bleed, he smiled and said he was ever so proud of me. We never fought again.

He signed up in the Royal Canadian Air Force on July 9, 1961. At that time, in Canada, you could sign the papers at seventeen and one half years old for induction at eighteen without a parent's permission. It was at that point that he decided that he would throw himself into military life wholeheartedly. And he certainly did. He did not finish high school. That is the reason he never made officer. But, he made Master Sergeant; a rank which I understand does not exist anymore, which was at one time Flight Sergeant (I am not sure of the terms.) And, he had quite a career… from Germany (twice) to Cyprus to Sardinia to Alert, NWT (the farthest north in the world), to HQ Ottawa and HQ CENTAG Europe where he was in charge of security for both HQ facilities. In CFB Trenton, he was the heart of the hospital and Medevac services. He was for decades on call 24/7 for his country. He saw combat, peacekeeping and paperwork.

He was, in the 60's and 70's, one of the best skeet shooters in the world. His Browning custom made over and under with gold inlay is a tribute to him by Browning. It's priceless. Of course, while he was traveling the world, Dad was teaching me how to hunt. So, Bro was a bit pissed off when I showed him up in the bush with my old piece of crap. Kinda like tickling him back… hehehe.

Ya know, there are just tooooo many stories I could tell you about my brother Bill. So, I will end this by saying… Thanks, Bill, my brother, and a hero to me.

All of what GNU has said makes my heart move and be proud that I am a Canadian. So I guess as much as we hate wars, the deep feeling inside me when our country is in peril falls back to our military. Damn I hate saying that. Yet Damn I'm proud of our military men and women that make our country strong and are out there holding our flag high.

Gnu, if you read the above , I hope you don't mind. Yes, I could have just pasted the thread titles but I really felt that as an up standing member, I should paste all of what you said.
Adrien

Subject: RE: BS: What does patriotism mean to you?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 05 Jul 08 - 11:26 PM

Mariposa Festival is going wonderfully! One more day to go.

I love music. I love my country and its heritage (in a general sense...there were some wrong things done, certainly). I love my nation. Some of that is certainly patriotism. I also love the world. Things will turn around some when people in general develop a wider form of patriotism that is truly global in its reach. We have made some progress in that sense in the last hundred years, I think, but we still have a very long way to go.

Subject: RE: BS: What does patriotism mean to you?
From: GUEST,number 6
Date: 05 Jul 08 - 06:31 PM

"The patriot's duty is to protect his country from it's Government"
.... Thomas Paine

That's what patriotism means to me.

biLL

Subject: RE: BS: What does patriotism mean to you?
From: Amos
Date: 05 Jul 08 - 05:17 PM

Very droll, Mr McGrath!!


A

Subject: RE: BS: What does patriotism mean to you?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 05 Jul 08 - 04:19 PM

Jingoism bears a somewhat similar relationship to patriotism that adultery does to fidelity. There is a similarity on one level, but not on the level that matters.

Subject: RE: BS: What does patriotism mean to you?
From: Art Thieme
Date: 05 Jul 08 - 03:13 PM

Barry,

We agree I think. I wasn't clear about "don't fly." I meant that, if you fly, you'll miss connecting with the "romance" of the landscape, the road, and what's there.

Good discussion, yes.

Art

Subject: RE: BS: What does patriotism mean to you?
From: Peace
Date: 05 Jul 08 - 03:08 PM

Just read the post Barry D and would have guessed it was from "Letters From the Earth" (which it wasn't). Twain--for those who have read beyond his 'children's books'--was quite scathing in his indictment of puffed up social mores and most forms of government. Thanks for posting it. (Don't mean to sound pedantic there.) Lord but that man could turn a phrase to cut to the stomach of a situation.

Subject: RE: BS: What does patriotism mean to you?
From: Mrrzy
Date: 05 Jul 08 - 02:51 PM

Usually a bad thing, leads to jingoism, us-v-them-ism, and usually anti-them discrimination.

That said, I think that the ideals upon which the USA was founded are worth defending, and a great idea...

Subject: RE: BS: What does patriotism mean to you?
From: GUEST,Barry Devine
Date: 05 Jul 08 - 01:26 PM

My last word for the day, as I'm on the way out the door. I see no need to be either a patriot or patriotic. I see them both as scarecrows and straw men, used cynically by an authoritarian ruling elite (the church, corporate, and founding fathers), to control people, land, and resources in a way that benefits them at the expense of those people, land, and resources.

In other words, I don't believe in any of it, and I am working for the benefit of future generations, and a day when it will be seen as just one more ugly aspect of the "way we used to be".

Have a great Saturday, folks. It's been a very interesting conversation.

Subject: RE: BS: What does patriotism mean to you?
From: GUEST,Barry Devine
Date: 05 Jul 08 - 01:18 PM

I'm with you most the way, Art--but you lost me at "to not fly anywhere" and being tethered to the earth has never been my nature. But I have absolutely no wish to impose my nature to fly and soar far beyond the environs where I was born, and the people to whom I was born--upon you or anyone else.

Not to the point of a "Don't Tread On Me" Ben Franklin's mindset, which many Americans in colonial times did embrace. And of course, that is the current mindset of many Americans in the post 9/11 era too. Libertarians especially love to fly that flag, as do some reactionary younguns, who use it as a touchstone in their rock, rap, and punk music ethos.

I am more from the "Live and Let Live, and Harm None" school. I don't like the idea of having to "defend" turf. At all. So appreciate living in the civilizations of today where I have never been forced to do that (I was a tad too young for the Vietnam draft, thankfully). And I hate the hegemonic coercion in the post 9/11 era that has driven people to invent their own "brand" of patriotism, in order to be viewed as "acceptable" socially to their fellow Americans.

It makes me really soul sick, in this time of war, to read that Obama referred to the US as "the greatest nation in the world". We are not. We are the greatest nation builders the world has ever seen, perhaps. But that is another kettle of fish entirely.

Subject: RE: BS: What does patriotism mean to you?
From: Stringsinger
Date: 05 Jul 08 - 01:06 PM

As an American, I feel that patriotism is the understanding of the principles of a brilliant document called The Constitution, although imperfect, it embodied a kind of idealism
of government that wasn't seen anywhere prior to its inception.

True patriotism is a knowledge of the implications of this document and an appreciation
for those who put it together.

The terms "Freedom and democracy" have become debased by those who use it to promote their own political ambitions. They are jingoistic footballs by people who don't really understand what they are.

"Democracy" is an ideal and is always in a state of evolution. It requires participation
as well as knowledge since it is based on the "law of the commons" which means that
it must be used in the service of the majority of people living under it.

"Freedom" is the right of every person living in a democracy to think for themselves
and not be dictated to by political or religious leaders. Jefferson expounded on this
at length. This "freedom" is at the core of patriotism.

Being a patriot doesn't mean having to fight or go to war to prove it. It is a form of
enlightenment in its true meaning.

I believe that the concern many of us here have for the music of our country is an outgrowth of this understanding, that it is important because it defines our values
found in our history.

Frank Hamilton

Subject: RE: BS: What does patriotism mean to you?
From: Bill D
Date: 05 Jul 08 - 01:03 PM

Since I was up pretty late last night, being patriotic by participating in American folk singing, food sharing and joke telling, I am late to the discussion...and most of what I would say has been expressed eloquently by others.

Indeed, patriotism MUST involve the ability to love one's country while being as honest as possible about its flaws; and by implication, striving to improve the bad while exulting in the good.

What is seldom expressed when patriotism is touted, is that in countries like the United States, (large and multi-cultural), there are SO many different ideas of what IS good and what actually needs improvement & change. The very openness and freedom we celebrate allows individuals & groups to disagree about what we should value & BE patriotic about.
We (in the USA) currently are reaching the end of an administration which has seemed quite narrow & divisive about how patriotism should be expressed and defined....and here in Mudcat, I have spent far more time than I cared to responding to "America bashing" in some reasonable manner. I worked very hard to remain "patriotic" and respect & defend and love my country while attempting to explain that most of us were quite aware of current temporary deviations from sane behavior.

Patriotism requires **being aware**...as honestly as one can manage, of what one's country is doing, what its history is, and what its professed values are. If most citizens did that, we might need fewer discussions about "patriotism" as a concept.

Subject: RE: BS: What does patriotism mean to you?
From: Donuel
Date: 05 Jul 08 - 12:58 PM

Patriotism will continue to be repackaged and advertised in various ways to serve the group defining it.

Some will work and others won't

For example you will sell more toys named Tickle Me Elmo than 'Vibrators For Children'.

Subject: RE: BS: What does patriotism mean to you?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 05 Jul 08 - 12:57 PM

I'm not sure you do disagree with what I was saying, Barry. Or perhaps its a verbal disagreement about the definition of the word. I wouldn't class an atrocity carried out "in the name as patriotism" as a patriotic act, but rather as a deeply anti-patriotic act.

Subject: RE: BS: What does patriotism mean to you?
From: Stringsinger
Date: 05 Jul 08 - 12:54 PM

Dissent is usually smart. People have reasons to disagree and in the case of dissent,
they must be thought out to be categorized as such.

Dissent is abolition, anti-war, pro-woman's suffrage, unionism (collective bargaining is a form of dissent), protest against forced child labor and was at the basis of American Independence from Great Britain. It is more American than apple pie.

Frank

Subject: RE: BS: What does patriotism mean to you?
From: Art Thieme
Date: 05 Jul 08 - 12:47 PM

Patriotism is a many splendored thing: It encompasses the individual need to be your own person and follow your bliss. To be a hobo or a free-spirit freeloader if you wish. To opt out of the damn capitalist money chase and choose, instead, to support your group and, in turn, be supported. To strive mightily to lean toward the good and to challenge the bad. To lean toward clear thought and away from wishful thinking in place of the clarity. To not abdicate the brains we are all born with. To get by without working---as in being a folksinger. (It was never a job--but it worked.) To get out there and feel the countryside and the humanity there and learn what you can as you experience worlds similar to the ones your mentors were drawn to. To not fly anywhere; to stay close to the earth and the people thereof. To learn from delving deeply into history and the story songs expressing aspects of that history that enlighten and shed valuable light on the sadness and numbing dumbing downward inertia that is powering things in these times.

And that's just some of it...

Art Thieme

Subject: RE: BS: What does patriotism mean to you?
From: GUEST,Barry Devine
Date: 05 Jul 08 - 12:45 PM

Donuel, alanbit just thanked everyone for not making things personal. Maybe you could stick to that spirit?

I like some of what Obama said in his speech, am indifferent to most of it, and loathe the rest.

I'm voting for Obama not because I think he is great, but because the opposition is so god awful. NO ONE should be pledging loyalty to Obama or McCain. To do so very much misses the point of the democratic traditions or "American ideal" if you prefer, doesn't it? That we support the rule of law, not men?

The problem with partisan loyalty and loyalty to the person is the very problem the Revolutionary War was supposed to have addressed. Loyalty to the rule of men is loyalty to a monarchy.

Subject: RE: BS: What does patriotism mean to you?
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 05 Jul 08 - 12:42 PM

Reading through this thread, I began to feel that there was little point in making any comment, as just about anything I could say, had already BEEN said.

However, I found that there was one idea in my mind that differed from the rest. If anyone else HAS said this, I apologise for not having spotted it.



For me, it is loving my country enough to be willing to die defending it from the aggression of others, but not willing to KILL at the behest of political masters who would interfere with the affairs of other nations.

It is being willing, verbally to defend my country, without denigrating other nations.

It is accepting that in the past, the government of my country has done some pretty atrocious things, but not being ashamed of my country for what MEN have done in its name.

Given time, there will probably be more, but I think that puts over the gist of my idea of what patriotism should be, and usually isn't.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: What does patriotism mean to you?
From: Donuel
Date: 05 Jul 08 - 12:37 PM

Barry, may I have your permission to quote Twain...please.

Subject: RE: BS: What does patriotism mean to you?
From: Bat Goddess
Date: 05 Jul 08 - 12:19 PM

In the early '70s (era of Vietnam War) there was a notorious bumpersticker that said, "America -- Love It Or Leave It" -- implying that whomever did not agree with our involvement in that war should just leave the country.

That bumpersticker was countered by one reading "America -- Fix It or Forget It".

Linn

Subject: RE: BS: What does patriotism mean to you?
From: alanabit
Date: 05 Jul 08 - 12:09 PM

Thank-you very much everyone for your thoughtful and interesting observations. I am particularly grateful for the way everyone has answered my original question and not descended into trying to prove others wrong.

Subject: RE: BS: What does patriotism mean to you?
From: GUEST,Barry D
Date: 05 Jul 08 - 11:59 AM

BTW, the above quote I asked Peace if he could identify was from Mark Twain.

Compare it, to the Twain quote used by Obama this weekend, and you will see why it pisses me off that Obama is jumping on the jingo bandwagon to get elected, and demeaning Twain (an original sin to a Twain worshipper like myself!) in the bargain.

Subject: RE: BS: What does patriotism mean to you?
From: GUEST,Barry D
Date: 05 Jul 08 - 11:55 AM

McGrath, I don't agree with what you are saying.

Perhaps we can all agree that when there is external threat to any group’s cultural, physical, or ideological survival or identity, this ideology or identity becomes internally stronger, often even when in diaspora--sometimes even more so within the diasporas (the Israel lobby in the US is a prime example of this, and support for Irish Republicanism to a far lesser extent).

I have a real problem with the idealizing and romanticizing involved in the 'love of country' patriotism, because it ignores the horrific aspects of patriotism. Really, truly horrific. Things our compatriots have done, and continue to do, in our name. We see the glorification of it on certain, very specific official national holidays, like Independence Day.

Sure I love where I live (suburban Denver). It is beautiful country, full of fantastic people.

But I live in a part of the world that makes the sort of romantic patriotism I see among conventional Americans, very patriotic. Denver has a pretty visible Native American and Hispanic American population, and 'patriotism' to them is couched almost completely in terms of the American military warrior ethos, or myriad, complex forms of radical opposition to it. Many of them "prove" their patriotism by being more gung ho than the most right wing white military hawks, who are constantly berating others for the betrayal of the "ideals" of the United States.

We're pretty much surrounded by the Teddy Roosevelt patriots out here.

Subject: RE: BS: What does patriotism mean to you?
From: Amos
Date: 05 Jul 08 - 11:52 AM

Can you actually love a "country"? Or os it a facile figure of speech for something else?

There are key core agreements that make up the foundation of the American national ideal, such as the beliefs named in the Declaration of Independence, and the implications of the original Bill of Rights.

Some of these agreements aren't written down, but are soaked up indirectly, such as the courage of frontiersmen or the sergeant who falls on a grenade for his fellows.

To whatever extent those agreements point a path to a better way of orgaizing our species into groups, they form the basis for my patriotism. I greatly appreciate the notion of the American Experiment started in 1776, and believe the country deserves great credit fr continuing to conduct that experiment.

I think "loving one's country" without being able to identify the factors you actually do love is a slippery slope to unthinking jingoism.

But the truth is, I do love a country -- this one. More than any other reason, because it once held enlightened rationality as an ideal, and may do so again.

Subject: RE: BS: What does patriotism mean to you?
From: GUEST,Lord Batman's Kitchener
Date: 05 Jul 08 - 11:47 AM

I should have added, I fully agree with Samuel Johnson's pronouncement

Subject: RE: BS: What does patriotism mean to you?
From: Azizi
Date: 05 Jul 08 - 11:40 AM

Patriotism may be the last refuge of scoundrels, but true patriots are wrong to allow scoundrels to paint them as unpatriotic.

Subject: RE: BS: What does patriotism mean to you?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 05 Jul 08 - 11:32 AM

It seems to me that one implication of "more moral duties to fellow members of the national community", in this context, is that a genuine patriot would feel a greater sense of indignation at excesses carried out by compatriots than at similar acts carried out by others - including adversaries.

When this isn't the case - which often appears to be the case - the patriotism of the people involved has to seen as pretty suspect.

Subject: RE: BS: What does patriotism mean to you?
From: Big Mick
Date: 05 Jul 08 - 11:31 AM

Patriotism ..... man, this word really lives on so many levels. For the capitalist, it is a card to be played when one wants to cause the mindless, cliche driven, politic to kick in for greed/profit driven purposes. It has been used to divide average, hard working folks and cause them to vote against their own economic self interest since time immemorial. I have heard my European friends criticize the American style of patriotism, and to some extent (based on the criteria I laid out above) I have a hard time disagreeing. I never salute a flag, I never embrace the "my country, right or wrong..." style of patriotism. I flies in the face of intellect, and it flies in the face of living a moral life. But I do salute the principles that the flag represents.

Now there is another side to patriotism. I find it in the hinted at in the Webster's definition. I suppose, strictly speaking, it is also hinted at in the OED version, yet I find that a bit hard edged. I would take issue with the broad use of "one's country", though. I certainly love the land upon which I live. I love it for its geographic diversity, for its mountains, plains, and vallies (sp?). I love its lakes, rivers, streams. But that is not patriotism, that is love of place. I could love other places as well. Love of the place is certainly a factor in patriotism, a seasoning in the stew so to speak, but not causal. No, I would define patriotism, and I freely acknowledge that this is simply my definition, in a very active way. Far too many in my country allow their patriotism to be defined by words. I much prefer the living, breathing form of patriotism which is defined by the constant struggle to help this place in which we planted that same patriotism to realize its true potential. For all of the naysayers, many of them friends of mine across the pond, this land and its form of government, have created the most unique system of laws and governance in the history of the world. This country has the ability to heal itself and regenerate itself in a very unique way. Every four years it has a change of power without bloodshed. This is almost unprecedented in the history of the world. Real patriotism, as envisioned by the founders, lies rooted in our revolutionary roots. One can see the hand of them, and their vision in the documents they produced. Most of these amendments guaranteed the rights to dissent, even revolt, should the government get out of hand. One has the right, and I would argue the obligation, to get on a soapbox, assemble, criticize, work for regime change, work to change laws, enact law, push for referendum, keep arms, remove leaders and cause social change. The founding documents enshrined these things in a basic Bill of Rights. Every one of them, as a right, has an implied expectation of exercise of them. Because of the diversity of thought and motivations in a land of such multiformity, it is kept to very basic ideals. It is crafted in such a way, and has protections, so that the minority is not overrun by the majority, as much as this is possible in a democratic society.

So to me, the simple answer to Alanabit's question is that patriotism lies in agitation to change for the better, in using the system to allow us to always be moving in a progressive direction towards a better country, one that will evolve into its promise. We started with raw wood. We have stumbled, we have headed down wrong paths, we have committed great wrongs, and continue to do so. Yet we are still the ideal that is aspired to. To be patriotic, IMO, as the Founders envisioned it, is to understand that the United States of America is a goal, a journey, a constantly evolving experiment in the rights of people. They had no way of anticipating if this experiment would work, or what it would become. But their genius created a system which would allow it to deal with whatever came at it, as best suited the people who live here. Patriotism then, is the active involvement in the process, it is the demanding of the government by its people to be better, it is the agitation for the constant change necessary for the system of laws to best serve all of its people, it is in the pride to be called one of its citizens knowing that you are participating in one of the great experiments of all time.

I love my country and its system of laws. I love the land it sits on. I am so proud to be an American, in the context of service to its people. I consider my military service, my community organizing/agitation, my union organizing activities, and the songs I write of the people and issues to all be a part of that love. But mostly, I believe that my patriotism lies in acting among those I come in contact with to promote the true ideals that we are founded on. Just like Azizi, I have pride in the land of my birth, and I believe it is justified and worthy of my efforts and my patriotism.

Prattle machine, ...... off.

All the best,

Mick