Any info about the green man?

Subject: Any info about the green man?
From: GUEST,Sam Pirt
Date: 09 Aug 08 - 07:09 AM

Do you know any songs / tunes / traditions etc.. about the green man? Any traditions in the yorksshire area? or your area? Anny info would be greatfuly recived.

Hope you are all ahving a great festival season.

Cheers, Sam

Subject: RE: Any info about the green man?
From: kendall
Date: 09 Aug 08 - 07:17 AM

Far Away Tom by Dave Goulder

Subject: RE: Any info about the green man?
From: kendall
Date: 09 Aug 08 - 07:20 AM

The Corries did one that mentioned the Green Man but it wasn't really about him. It's Scottish and I don't know the name of it.

Subject: RE: Any info about the green man?
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 09 Aug 08 - 07:32 AM

A knowledge search brings up a lot of threads on this subject, it's certainly a good starting point

Cheers

L in C

Subject: RE: Any info about the green man?
From: GUEST,Amber
Date: 09 Aug 08 - 07:38 AM

Cloudstreet did a very good one called The Green Man with a good chorus. You can get it if you type Cloudstreet song lyrics, or something similar, into Google

Amber

Subject: RE: Any info about the green man?
From: katlaughing
Date: 09 Aug 08 - 07:45 AM

Sam, have you seen this excellent little book: "The Hastings Jack in the Green" written by Keith Leech (ISBN 0 9514498 0 X)? Micca sent me over a copy. It is quite interesting and full of history as well as superb photos.

Nice to see you!

Subject: RE: Any info about the green man?
From: theleveller
Date: 09 Aug 08 - 07:57 AM

Mike Harding has done lots of research into the Green Man; have a look on his website. There are Green Man carvings right across Yorkshire, especially in York Minster - there's also one in Rudston Church where the famous Rudston Monolith stands.

Jack in the Green is, traditionally, not the same as the Green Man. It was a tradition started by chimney sweeps to earn money in the lean summer months. You can find info on both in the superb book, Enland In Particular, puiblished by Commn Ground.

Subject: RE: Any info about the green man?
From: Snuffy
Date: 09 Aug 08 - 08:39 AM

The term "Green Man" was coined by Lady Raglan, in her article "The Green Man in Church Architecture" in The Folklore Journal.[3] The figure is also often referred to (perhaps erroneously) as Jack in the green.

Most medieval representations of him are in churches and other religious buildings.

So obviously an ancient, Celtic, pagan phenomenon then.

Subject: RE: Any info about the green man?
From: Willa
Date: 09 Aug 08 - 09:02 AM

Hi Sam. good to 'see' you!
These might be of interest http://www.ryedale.co.uk/ryedale/misc/ryedalehistory/greenman.html

http://www.bbc.co.uk/dna/h2g2/alabaster/A353161

Subject: RE: Any info about the green man?
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 09 Aug 08 - 09:55 AM

Clive Hicks did a book a few years ago about the resurgance of the Green Man, but the only songs I'm aware of are specifically about Jack in the Green/JITG Festivals (Rod Sherman, Jethro Tull/Ian Anderson et al).

If you PM Lady Penelope, she might be able to get you a copy of the book, her husband 'Parker' took the photos.

LTS

Subject: RE: Any info about the green man?
From: kendall
Date: 09 Aug 08 - 10:08 AM

Folk Legacy records has the Green Man for a logo.

Subject: RE: Any info about the green man?
From: Mrs Scarecrow
Date: 09 Aug 08 - 10:20 AM

MGAS sins a wonderful green man song I'm not sure who it is by. Other lovely songs about the Green Man have been written by Jon Heslop and Steve Thomasson. I have also written one call Sing to Welcome back the Green Man

Subject: RE: Any info about the green man?
From: Andy Jackson
Date: 09 Aug 08 - 10:25 AM

And so does Forest Tracks
Actually designed for us by Dave Williams .

Andy

Subject: RE: Any info about the green man?
From: Andy Jackson
Date: 09 Aug 08 - 10:32 AM

Whoops I seem to jumped over Mrs Scarecrow!!
I was of course referring back one to the Logo.
I thinks MS is refering to the John Thompson/Cloudstreet song which I am sure MGAS sings.
I can recommend the others mentioned as well of course.

Subject: RE: Any info about the green man?
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 09 Aug 08 - 12:17 PM

I'm not prepared to do a whole lot of reading on this matter. But from what I've seen, there is no real evidence that the green man was green.

For all we know, the leaves on the originals might have been the yellow-green of spring, the deep green of summer, the orange and gold of autumn or the sere brown of winter.

In fact, given the human penchant for playing with ideas, there could have been 'green men' with leaves in all four colors.

Seeing that - i.e., a human face with leaves from the four seasons around it - would lead me to conclude that the face represents our old friend the sun, who brings the seasons.

Why not?

Subject: RE: Any info about the green man?
From: Nerd
Date: 09 Aug 08 - 01:16 PM

Snuffy has it almost right...Lady Raglan first applied the term "Green Man" to "foliate head" carvings in church architecture. But she did not actually coin it, Wikipedia notwithstanding. She took the name from a common English name for a pub or inn.

As Raglan herself says,

"I should like to remind you that there is an extraordinary number of 'Green Man' inns all over the country. I have noticed them particularly in East Anglia."

What she was doing in her articles was to argue for historical continuity between "foliate head" carvings and more contemporary phenomena, in particular Jack-in-the-Green enactments at May time, and the common pub name The Green Man.

Many Green Man inns featured signs illustrating a character who looks more like Jack in the Green than like a foliate head.

theleveller may be right or wrong about the Green Man and Jack-in-the-Green being different, depending on whether we accept or reject Raglan's idea. If we reject it, then "foliate head" carvings and "Jack in the Green" enactments are indeed totally different phenomena...and neither one is the same as "The Green Man," which is a traditional name for inns and pubs, and a traditional green-clad character on inn signs. If we accept Raglan's idea, then they are all manifestations of the same tradition.

Interestingly, if we were to partially accept Raglan, it would be easier to accept that "The Green Man" (pub character) and "Jack in the Green" (chimney-sweeper's mayday enactment) were the same; they look very similar, and are also roughly contemporary. "Foliate Head" carvings are from a totally different time period, and look very different from the other two traditions. So I would argue that it's possible that Jack-in-the-Green IS the Green Man, but that the church carvings are something else again.

leeneia's idea is interesting, and applies well to some versions of the foliate head, but not very well to others. I think it was a symbol whose meaning changed over time, and also one that different carvers used to express different ideas.

Subject: RE: Any info about the green man?
From: Nerd
Date: 09 Aug 08 - 01:32 PM

Forgot to say: Deirdre Stuart of the group Shaman wrote a song about the Green Man, which has been recorded by Shaman and by the Maryland group Kiva.

The lyrics:

I was on a hill one day watching all the winter grey, there I met the strangest man,
He said "Call me a fool that's what I am;
But I've got magic I can bring the flowers back make the birds all sing;
I'll bring the light back to the land; I'm the Green Man. The Green Man."

I said, "where' ve you been my friend, the greyness never seems to end;
The winter's been so long and cold, I feel I'm getting ever old".
He said "I've been sleeping beneath the snow gaining strength while the winds did blow;
So I can bring light to your land I'm the Green Man. The Green Man".

Green Man bring the colors back to the land;
Green Man, You're the Green Man, The Green Man.

Can you see the Green Man, rising from his winter sleep?
I can see the Green Man awakening, awakening.

Just then he smiled and he turned around, wonders lay before me on the ground,
All the land had seemed to change, all the colors rearranged.
He said, "All this color doesn't mean a thing unless there's a winter before a spring;
Take a good look at your land------I'm the Green Man. The Green Man".

Green Man, bring the colors back to the land.
Green Man, You're the Green Man. The Green Man.
Green Man, bring the colors back to the land.
Green Man, You're the Green Man. The Green Man.
The Green Man.

Subject: RE: Any info about the green man?
From: katlaughing
Date: 09 Aug 08 - 03:10 PM

What a great thread!

Subject: RE: Any info about the green man?
From: greg stephens
Date: 09 Aug 08 - 05:09 PM

Obviously plenty of contemporary song-writers have tried to remedy the deficiency, but there are no folksongs in the British tradition that seem to shed any light on this subject, so far as anyone has been able to discover. It would be great if someone could could come up with anything, however tewnuous, to suggest otherwise. The poem Gawain and the Green Knight is obviously of relevance to any discussion of the subject.

Subject: RE: Any info about the green man?
From: My guru always said
Date: 09 Aug 08 - 05:17 PM

The Green man song I generally sing is 'When the Green Man Walks the Forest' by Graeme Miles (Martyn Wyndham-Read has recorded it), but I also sing a harmony to John Thompson's 'Green Man' song. Maybe one day I'll get to sing Anne Reader's 'Sing to Welcome back the Green Man' too, it's wonderful, but Anne sings it so well!! They're all fabulous songs and of course whatever belief a person holds, Mother Nature has us all in her hands.

Subject: RE: Any info about the green man?
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 09 Aug 08 - 06:04 PM

I've seen folk tales refer to any man who lived in the woods as a 'Green Man', particularly the 'bad man gets lost in the forest, has to wear leaves, turns into a good man with deeply moral story' variety.

Gawain fought a Green Knight who is always portrayed as being actually green, rather than foliate. This is probably where the confusion starts.

LTS

Subject: RE: Any info about the green man?
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 09 Aug 08 - 06:22 PM

As has been discussed above, The Green Man has nothing to do the Foliate Head carvings as found in mediaeval churches, and Lady Raglan's somewhat Frazerian approach to the pagan origins of such folklore further compounds such associations, especially as a lot of pubs called The Green Man now sport stylised Foliate Heads on their signs.

The Green Man as we understand the concept today is essentially a modern construct (in academia no older than 1939, in popular culture circa 1970) based on the above confusions and consequent pagan propagandising.

For more see thread http://www.mudcat.org/thread.cfm?threadid=104331

Subject: RE: Any info about the green man?
From: Nerd
Date: 09 Aug 08 - 07:08 PM

Insane Beard,

I wouldn't go so far as to say that the foliate head carvings have "nothing to do" with the Green Man. An article you yourself pointed out in the other thread you link to above has found that such a connection is in fact very likely.

"The Green Man," it turns out, was well-known as a name for "whiffers" [men dressed in green attire carrying clubs, torches, and brooms, who cleared a space in the crowd for actors] at pageants in sixteenth-century England. These figures sometimes engaged in play combat, and are called by the article's author "combatant green men." The author further shows that this type of figure, and the name "green man," went on to become popular as business emblems for several kinds of businesses, including distilleries and inns. So the inn "Green Man" is related to the combatant green man.

Is the combatant green man connected to the foliate head? Turns out, yes. There is one "foliate head" carving from 1534 England that has such whiffers attached to the head, and one ca. 1450 engraving from Germany (where such pageant figures were also known as "green man") that has such a whiffer bearing a shield with a foliate head on it. I'll quote from the article for the next part:

"The connection is made yet again in the spandrel of a choir stall in Winchester Cathedral, Hampshire, where one William Lyngwode carved the image of a combatant Green Man in 1308. Here the "Green Man" of church architecture and the combatant are a single figure. Unlike the later representations, this one is dressed in conventional clothing and carries a sword and buckler.

It appears that Lady Raglan was right. The name of the foliate head - labelled the "Green Man" by Lady Raglan - was the Green Man."

I think this connection is rather tenuous for suggesting that the two figures were always and everywhere equated...but it does show that as early as the fifteenth and sixteenth centuries, and possibly even the early 14th, SOME people thought of the whiffer figure and the foliate head as connected. Since the whiffer figure was in some times and places called "The Green Man," and since the Green Man as a pub sign did come from this figure, there was already a web of connections among all the meanings of Green Man, including the foliate head, in the late middle ages and Renaissance. The idea did not originate with Lady Raglan. She merely was the first to directly apply the name "Green Man" to the foliate head and have it recorded for posterity.

It is possible, of course, that many people in olden times did NOT perceive a connection among these figures, but this is the kind of thing that tends not to leave much evidence.

Subject: RE: Any info about the green man?
From: GUEST,Sam Pirt
Date: 10 Aug 08 - 01:20 PM

Excellent I knew you would come up with some answers.

If I am right in thinking then the 'green man' has existed for many years but only became known as the 'green man' upon Lady Raglan giving it this title.
What did this face represent before this time? was it the spirit of the forest?
What was the significance of the carving on the churches?

Nerd - the whiffers you refer to are these related to the wickerman or was that born out of a film and taken on to become a festival due to its cult popularity?

Does anybody know any sort verses about the green man? and what role it had?

Thanks a lot, it seems to have opened up more questions rather than answered them but thankyou all.

Cheers, Sam

Subject: RE: Any info about the green man?
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 10 Aug 08 - 01:23 PM

I know I am wasting my time here but all those amazing heads in churches have nothing really to do with what ever the Green Man is. That's it really

Subject: RE: Any info about the green man?
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 10 Aug 08 - 01:27 PM

Les:

Indeedio. It's a topic which has been covered pretty comprehensively here.

Subject: RE: Any info about the green man?
From: AllisonA(Animaterra)
Date: 10 Aug 08 - 01:56 PM

Hi, Sam! Good to see you here.
I know a song about the Green Man that my friend Kayti Gilbert wrote; I'd have to dig it out and send it to you somehow. My email addy is animaterra321(at)gmail.com if you want to remind me to get it for you!

Allison

PS- I can't wait to tell you all about my new PA!

Subject: RE: Any info about the green man?
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 10 Aug 08 - 02:26 PM

True enough Ruth, the heads and other things in churches are truly amazing - Sean /Insane Beard has lots of photos of them on his MySpace well worth a look.

Cheers

L in C

Subject: RE: Any info about the green man?
From: Helen Jocys
Date: 10 Aug 08 - 03:28 PM

I've just written a poem about him.

Subject: RE: Any info about the green man?
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 10 Aug 08 - 03:49 PM

who - Sam Pirt?

Subject: RE: Any info about the green man?
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 10 Aug 08 - 04:01 PM

Is the combatant green man connected to the foliate head? Turns out, yes. There is one "foliate head" carving from 1534 England that has such whiffers attached to the head

A consideration of the Crowcombe bench end carvings in their historical context reveals a rather startling syncronicity completely overlooked by the author of the article, and one which certainly overshadows the somewhat tenuous notions expressed therein. 1534 - there's the key!

Subject: RE: Any info about the green man?
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 10 Aug 08 - 06:01 PM

The wicker man was mentioned by Claudius (or was it another Caesar?) when the Romans invaded Britain in the early first century (possibly AD43?). It has nothing to do with green men unless there is a link in fertility festivals and rites. Even that is dubious and probably modern in origin (where modern is 20th Century).

LTS

Subject: RE: Any info about the green man?
From: Nerd
Date: 11 Aug 08 - 12:19 AM

Les and Ruth...You are only wasting your time if you assume everyone will agree with you merely because you say it. The latest research at least suggests there may be a connection. It was InsaneBeard, not me, who linked to the article in question, which was published in the oldest and most prestigious folklore journal in the world.

InsaneBeard: I presume you're speaking of Henry VIII's ecclesiastical reforms, certainly the biggest change to hit England in 1534. Why would these naturally lead to foliate heads connected to combatants? (BTW, you can see the bench-end here)

Do you care to elaborate? And what of the other two connections between foliate heads and combatant green men before Lady Raglan?

Subject: RE: Any info about the green man?
From: Nerd
Date: 11 Aug 08 - 12:27 AM

Liz...it was Julius Caesar who mentioned the "effigies of twigs" with living men inside, which led to the idea of a "wicker man." Caesar was governor of Gaul from 58-50 BC, but he never claims to have witnessed such a wicker man himself....

Subject: RE: Any info about the green man?
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 11 Aug 08 - 02:47 AM

Well it's mentioned in the writings of one of his Generals then... I recall a definate mention of wicker men burning on the cliffs. I'll try and dig out the reference but I don't want to go off at a tangent here. The Wicker Man (either in fact or film) has nothing to do with the foliate head or 'green man' that we're discussing here, except perhaps, as part of a fertility ritual. I would put forward the supposition that they became the more acceptable face of fertility, rather than toasting the local farm animals and the odd roving constable.

LTS

Subject: RE: Any info about the green man?
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 11 Aug 08 - 04:21 AM

If you have decided that their must be a connection between what ever you think the 'Green Man' is and foliate heads in churches then eventually you may find some evidence.

But a scholarly search of a wide range of evidence seems to show the two to be different phenomena and I think that's what previous threads have concluded.

Subject: RE: Any info about the green man?
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 11 Aug 08 - 04:46 AM

Indeed. I don't think anything is the case just because I say it, but this is a subject which has been discussed in detail in the past by people who have done a fair old bit of scholarly research, and it seems a bit silly to have to go over the arguments again (although that is a favourite Mudcat sport).

Subject: RE: Any info about the green man?
From: Nerd
Date: 11 Aug 08 - 01:36 PM

Les and Ruth, my point is that the last person who actually did any research that was peer reviewed for a scholarly journal, came to the conclusion that there IS a connection. And this was in a scholarly environment that was hostile to the idea. I think it should be taken fairly seriously.

The folks who post on Mudcat take a wide range of approaches, from popular to scholarly, and having previous threads come to a particular conclusion is no guarantee that that conclusion is right. Mudcat is basically like Wikipedia: anyone can have a say, and the more popular idea can often win out even if it's not supported by the evidence. There's a place for that, but I will usually take a peer-reviewed journal article more seriously than a Mudcat thread.

One thing that tends to happen is that people make up their minds about something at a certain point, and if further scholarly research comes out, they more or less ignore it. I think that's been the case with this article. Furthermore, in the best of instances, most scholarly articles take decades before becoming part of popular awareness. The article we're discussing is only about 10 years old, and therefore most people are working in the previous scholarly atmosphere, which was very hostile to Lady Raglan.

Case in point: early on in this thread, we had the idea expressed that Lady Raglan had "coined" the term Green Man, which you will find stated with much authority on Wikipedia as well. As I pointed out, it is not true. In 1578, a stage direction in a play calls for "Two men, apparrelled lyke greene men at the Mayors feast, with clubbes of fyre worke." The term thus goes back hundreds of years before Lady Raglan's birth, in English and other Germanic languages, and refers to a traditional character in pageantry and drama (the Mayor's Feast included a pageant). In 1578, the term was considered well enough known that all one had to do was direct that actors be "dressed like Green Men," and the company would know what to do.

The next question is when the term became associated with foliate heads, and the answer is "we don't know." Sadly, people in previous centuries just didn't mention foliate heads much in English, so we don't have any English name for them that is particularly old. The term "foliate head" is a translation of the French term "tete feuille," not a native name for this phenomenon. (Don't know how to make accents on Mudcat, sorry!)

However, we do know there is an association between the character that was called "Green Man" and foliate heads. The connection is not necessarily one of origin; all we can prove for sure is an association in the minds of some people. Nevertheless, this association is far older than the historians who wish to discredit Lady Raglan give it credit for--14th Century perhaps, 15th with more certainty, 16th without doubt.

So, for hundreds of years, the term "Green Man" has been connected to combatant figures with clubs. For hundreds of years, combatant figures with clubs have been connected to foliate heads. I haven't "decided" there is such a connection, it's been shown by the evidence.

Because of all this, I think Les's "nothing really to do with it" and Ruth's "indeedio" show a breezy lack of concern for the evidence that's been presented--it's just a knee-jerk response, "we've talked about this before." Perhaps, but the last time we talked about it, the discussion ENDED with Insane Beard bringing up this article, and no one seems to have read or addressed it in the further discussion, except me and Insane Beard. I await his response to my last, which I suspect will be interesting and well-informed!

Liz: I believe it was only Caesar who attested to the "wicker man," and that no one in antiquity ever said they saw it firsthand. I'd be happy to have my memory proven faulty, if you can find the reference you remember. You are correct that the putative "wicker man" has nothing to do with "Green Man" figures. It was not green, for one thing, and there is a very good reason it would be made out of twigs that is more practical than symbolic: it had to catch fire.

Subject: RE: Any info about the green man?
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 11 Aug 08 - 02:57 PM

Those combatant figures on the bench ends look nothing like Greenmen, isn't that a bit of a problem?

Subject: RE: Any info about the green man?
From: Nerd
Date: 11 Aug 08 - 03:37 PM

Actually, they look exactly like green men. Their lower halves, in fact, appear to be enshrouded in leaves, so that they emerge from horns filled with foliage. Their upper halves look like hairy men with beards, carrying a club in one hand and a shield in the other. This is what combatant Green Men look like when carved out of wood and left unpainted.

For comparison, see the finial here , from just the same period. The legs emerge from greenery, and the figure looks like a hairy man with a club and shield. The green enamel has places where his elbow and knee show through the greenery, making clear that he is attired in green moss or leaves. Although the Cloisters has chosen to identify this as a "Wild Man" rather than a "Green Man," there was of course no such name on the object itself. It looks precisely like the pageant figure known as a "Green Man" in England.

Now imagine what it would look like if it weren't painted green, and you get more or less our bench-end figures. In fact, the bench-end figures have greener attributes than the very green finial figure, to make up for the lack of paint: eg, leaves grow up from their lower midriffs and down from their heads, meeting in the middle, Their shields resemble flowers, etc.

(Hmmm, don't they look like medieval folkies, though?)

Subject: RE: Any info about the green man?
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 11 Aug 08 - 03:49 PM

They look like people but they don't look much like Green Men of the 18 /19C that appear as sweeps or whatever

Subject: RE: Any info about the green man?
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 11 Aug 08 - 04:14 PM

I'm on a sort of holiday right now (Rachel & I celebrating our 5th Wedding Anniversary!!), so I'll get back regarding the Crowcombe bench ends in a day or two. Meanwhile, here's a one to ponder:

A Foliate Moor (?), Chester Cathedral (I call this the Foliate Osama! Even had him featured in The Fortean Times...)

Subject: RE: Any info about the green man?
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 11 Aug 08 - 04:17 PM

Nerd - the author was Seutonius Paulinus as far as I can find... AD43 invasion.

LTS

Subject: RE: Any info about the green man?
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 11 Aug 08 - 05:45 PM

For hundreds of years, combatant figures with clubs have been connected to foliate heads.

I'm all in favour of taking new research seriously, but I missed the part where 'two bench ends' turned into 'hundreds of years'.

Subject: RE: Any info about the green man?
From: Nerd
Date: 11 Aug 08 - 06:01 PM

Liz, the accounts featuring Suetonius Paulinus are from Tacitus's Annals. They are not first-hand, but second and third-hand: Tacitus had them from his father-in-law Agricola, who fought with Suetonius and was present at some but not all of the events.

I am not familiar with any passage from the Annals that features wicker men. You're probably thinking of the famous passage about Suetonius's invasion of Anglesey, in which the Britons used fires, torches, and spooky tactics, but no wicker men.

Tacitus does say that Suetonius's men found altars "slaked with human entrails," though!

Suetonius also put down Boudicca's revolt. He does say of the Britons: "it was not on making prisoners and selling them, or on any of the barter of war, that the enemy was bent, but on slaughter, on the gibbet, the fire and the cross." Again, no wicker men are mentioned in that part of the Annals (Book XIV).

Subject: RE: Any info about the green man?
From: Nerd
Date: 11 Aug 08 - 06:16 PM

Pip Radish, you missed my post of "09 Aug 08 - 07:08 PM." In it, I pointed out three points of connection, not one.

1) 1308, Winchester Catherdal: a figure who has both a foliate head and a sword and shield, and is thus both a foliate head and a combatant green man, is carved on a choir stall. See this not so good picture.

2) ca. 1450: a combatant green man on a German engraving carries a shield in the shape of a foliate head. I have seen this image but can't provide it (it's in the original journal article, but not the freely available online version).

3) 1534: Bench-end (link is above).

That gives you a two-hundred-twenty-odd year span.

Subject: RE: Any info about the green man?
From: Peg
Date: 11 Aug 08 - 09:49 PM

XTC also does a song about the Green Man. There are a surprising number of songs about it/him. I wrote a song called "Man in Green."

I've seen the green man carvings in Norwich's cathedrals; beautiful.

Subject: RE: Any info about the green man?
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 12 Aug 08 - 04:11 AM

There is definately a phrase that mentions 'giants of wicker' but I'm damned if I can find it right now... I may have to open a few boxfiles here and find the hard copy.

LTS

Subject: RE: Any info about the green man?
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 12 Aug 08 - 04:52 AM

Nerd,

we have, I guess, thousands of churches with a vast collection of foliate heads and indescribable amounts of other features. We have a small collection of 'Green Men' of relatively recent origin.

What connects them? One feature from the end of a pew, something in Germany!!!!!!!!!!!!! and another feature that looks almost nothing like a 'green Man. Is that it?

Subject: RE: Any info about the green man?
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 12 Aug 08 - 07:26 AM

(Still on holiday, but briefly...)

It was Lady Raglan who first called the Ecclesiastical Foliate Heads after the Green Men / Man of folklore, pub names included - this amounts to a fairly significant coining, I'd say. Not only that, but it introduces a folklorist ideology into a non-folkloric setting. Further, the ideologies of folklorists are not folklore, but a secondary interpretative and entirely academic layer which itself gives rise to a tertiary quasi-religious (wiccan / pagan) layer, which is itself entirely bogus. It is the ideas of this tertiary layer that have coloured (green) our perceptions of The Green Man in every sense - linking the folklore, pub names & Ecclesiastical Foliate Heads to represent a single (and entirely modern) notion of Greenness=Goodness, even to the point where, with a few notable exceptions, Anglican churches & cathedrals heartily promote & encourage a pagan / folkloric / green-as-good interpretation of their Foliate Heads, rather than admit that they are part of the fabric of pre-Reformation Roman Catholic culture and theology (and post-Reformation too if their proliferation in the Roman Catholic Cathedral in Norwich is anything to go by!).

With that idea of Greenness=Goodness in mind, have a look at the examples below:

Salle, Norfolk

Carlise Cathedral

Lincoln Cathedral

Norwich Anglican Cathedral

Chester Cathedral (Davros)

Maybe it's time we got rid of this daft notion of tree worship and fecundity. In the Ecclesiastical Foliate Heads we are not dealing with jolly Jacks-in-the-Green, rather images of a profound afflicting horror of nature at its most invasive & virulent. It is this, btw, that signifies the relationship the events of 1534 to the bench ends at Crowcombe which would certainly appear to be a bitterly Catholic reaction to the circumstances surrounding The Act of Supremacy, rather than some soppy depiction of carnival figures which makes no sense whatsoever in any sort of Ecclesiastical context. It's an interesting article though, which is why I drew attention to it; all articles & books on the so-called Green Man are interesting, often telling us more about the authors than they do about the subject in hand.