professionalism and the revival

Subject: professionalism and the revival
From: The Sandman
Date: 21 Sep 08 - 07:15 AM

I wondered what peoples opinions were on the effects of professionalism on the music of the folk revival.,and also of traditional music,and or folk music.
have we whilst gaining and improving technical competence,lost something else,that was present in the performances of singers/ musicians,who did not play music for a living?
Dick Miles.

Subject: RE: professionalism and the revival
From: Leadfingers
Date: 21 Sep 08 - 08:49 AM

Well before the revival , there was no such thing as a 'Profesional' folk siger , was there ?

Subject: RE: professionalism and the revival
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 21 Sep 08 - 09:04 AM

great idea, deserves a try....

Subject: RE: professionalism and the revival
From: Michael S
Date: 21 Sep 08 - 09:43 AM

While I understand the nature of the concern, I think it's always been overstated. I think you're comparing--if not apples and oranges, perhaps red apples and green apples. (Huh?)

Those with the skill (and the desire) to attempt to earn a living from music will make the try. They'll identify their prospective audience and they'll try to reach that audience as best they can, however it suits them.

Those non-professionals interested in homemade, family, or community music-making will carry on as before. I've never believed that the professional folk revival had long-lasting effect on, for example, the indigenous Mexican music played at San Antonio weddings.

Now, what people hear through the media will eventually affects the sounds they make. Over generations, the nature of a music will change. That's another (albeit related) issue. That's the folk process in the age of mass media.

--Michael Scully
--Austin

Subject: RE: professionalism and the revival
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 21 Sep 08 - 09:47 AM

"have we whilst gaining and improving technical competence,lost something else,that was present in the performances of singers/ musicians,who did not play music for a living?"

No, because you have not lost the performances of singers/musicians who did not play for a living - they are still out there.

If you only look at one side, you will only see one side.

Subject: RE: professionalism and the revival
From: RTim
Date: 21 Sep 08 - 11:23 AM

I know that I certainly don't sing to make a living.... Tim Radford

Subject: RE: professionalism and the revival
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 21 Sep 08 - 11:23 AM

Which revival? There were several. The "professional" didn't really arrive until the appearance of recordings and radio provided widespread accessibility to a general public, but, in the US at least, the first "Professional" folksingers to make it big were the Country singers: Carter Family, Jimmy Rogers, Vernon Dalhart, Carson Robison etc.
And like just about all performers who cater to a widely-varied audience, they pimped upn the music to make it more generally palatable, and added to it the musical values and styles that they heard in other popular music.
    Commercial "folk" music has its own traditions; it has also impinged upon and altered the traditions of social singers/instrumentalists.

Subject: RE: professionalism and the revival
From: GUEST
Date: 21 Sep 08 - 12:04 PM

Oh dear, I fear you've opened that can of worms again and we're going to have the 'Good Enough For Folk' debate again.

My own opinion has always been that, whilst it's great to listen to professionals, at concerts and festivals and on CD, and this can act as an inspiration and a way of learning for us lesser mortals, it's the amateur nature of folk music that keeps it alive and vibrant. We should not discourage anyone, of any ability, from having a go. 2 of the folk clubs I go to regularly are singers' clubs with no professional acts (unless they want to come along and join in, which some do) and they are always well attended, to the extent that singers are usually restricted to 2, or sometimes 3, songs during the evening. It's great fun, with people ranging from under 18 to 80 and gives rise to some wonderful, impromtu groups.

As to technical competence, there are plenty of excellent singers and musicians with great skill and competence who have no desire to turn professional. On the other hand, I have talked to some excellent professionals recently who say how difficult it is to make a living, and they often have to have other jobs to pay their way.

I think there's room for both professional and amateur in folk music and, for me, that's one of its biggest attractions.

Subject: RE: professionalism and the revival
From: theleveller
Date: 22 Sep 08 - 03:16 AM

Oops, above was me without cookies.

Subject: RE: professionalism and the revival
From: Folkiedave
Date: 22 Sep 08 - 04:29 AM

Of course there is rtoom for both and (since the first professional singers - whoever they were is not important - there have been people who both make a living and do it for fun.

If you do do politically-biased folk songs though - its a good idea to have an income from somewhere else other than folk music!

But one of my great delights is to see and hear a top class singer, duo or band at the top of their game with a good sound system and excellent acoustics.

I quote as an example Spiers and Boden at the Highcliffe last Friday night - they were fantastic.

Subject: RE: professionalism and the revival
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 22 Sep 08 - 05:15 AM

one of my great delights is to see and hear a top class singer, duo or band at the top of their game with a good sound system and excellent acoustics.

For me nothing beats hearing a top-class performer without any amplification at all. Ironically, this would be a lot harder if all those top-class performers were getting the audiences they deserve (and making a decent living).

Leveller: they are always well attended, to the extent that singers are usually restricted to 2, or sometimes 3, songs during the evening

Slight digression: one reason I'm going to my local singers' club less often these days is that it's too well attended - on both the last two occasions I've been down, everyone got one song. Don't know what the answer to that is, other than starting earlier - or waiting for the numbers to right themselves as people like me drift away ("nobody goes there any more, it's too busy").

Subject: RE: professionalism and the revival
From: theleveller
Date: 22 Sep 08 - 05:39 AM

"If you do do politically-biased folk songs though - its a good idea to have an income from somewhere else other than folk music!"

Not sure about that. A large proportion of folk music is politically-biased in one way or another. Billy Bragg, Oysterband, The Levellers, Martin Simpson, Show of Hands etc. don't seem to do too badly.

Subject: RE: professionalism and the revival
From: GUEST,banksie
Date: 22 Sep 08 - 05:56 AM

> Well before the revival , there was no such thing as a 'Profesional' folk siger , was there ?


I guess it depends on how you define `rpofessional'. If you mean `make a living from it' then I would have thought there have been professionals for hundreds of years - I would have thought O'Carolan qualified for example. OK, they would have told stories as well as sung songs and, quite possibly, played tunes, and they would travel from town to town, village to village doing what I suppose we would now call `busking'.

The other side of this is that calling performers `professionals' does seem to suggest they have passed a raft of exams to qualify, rather than qualify through that mixture of talent and experience. And given the Newcastle degree courses, I wonder how long it will be before no one is allowed to perform at a singaround unless they have better than a 2/2 degree, plus the full health and safety issues module. :-)

Subject: RE: professionalism and the revival
From: Folkiedave
Date: 22 Sep 08 - 06:14 AM


The other side of this is that calling performers `professionals' does seem to suggest they have passed a raft of exams to qualify, rather than qualify through that mixture of talent and experience.

Not at all - it means they have a professional approach to their work - easily defined when you look at the opposite.

Subject: RE: professionalism and the revival
From: GUEST,Working Radish
Date: 22 Sep 08 - 06:20 AM

I wonder how long it will be before no one is allowed to perform at a singaround unless they have better than a 2/2 degree, plus the full health and safety issues module.

Don't forget the forklift license!

Subject: RE: professionalism and the revival
From: Folkiedave
Date: 22 Sep 08 - 06:21 AM

Forklift license? For carrying the huge fees folksingers get? :-)

Subject: RE: professionalism and the revival
From: greg stephens
Date: 22 Sep 08 - 06:37 AM

While the history of prfessional singing of folk songs is patchy, there is no denying that the professional playing of folk tunes has always been the norm. Every community naturally had the availability of music for weddings, funerals, christenings, parties, dances, playing to people working etc etc.And the performers were paid to do it. A good thing too!