BS: The Debates

Subject: BS: The Debates
From: Donuel
Date: 26 Sep 08 - 08:12 PM

McCain already has websites celebrating his victory in the first debate.

Why did Barack agree to ol Miss, the college stomping frounds of McCain. Poor judgment like the Rick Warren fiasco.

First impressions are so important. I saw 2 signs for Obama outside the debate and 200 for McCain.

Subject: RE: BS: The Debates
From: GUEST,Sawzaw
Date: 26 Sep 08 - 08:16 PM

What websites? Obama has poor judgement?

Subject: RE: BS: The Debates
From: Amos
Date: 26 Sep 08 - 08:29 PM

Ole Miss was the sad site of national furor when the national Guard was called several thousand strong, out to quell a riot of white bigots trying to prevent the admission of one soft-spoken black man named James Meredith.

Tonight, Ole Miss will stand tall in American history by being the site where a single soft-spoken black man will start his ascent to the leadership of untold numbers of more rational humans of all races across the United States.

That's a historical perspective of some importance and a chance for Mississippi to regain her pride and recover from her role in a national disgrace forty odd years ago.


A

Subject: RE: BS: The Debates
From: Donuel
Date: 26 Sep 08 - 08:35 PM

That puts a better light on it.

Subject: RE: BS: The Debates
From: John O'L
Date: 26 Sep 08 - 09:12 PM

Hear hear

Subject: RE: BS: The Debates
From: harpmolly
Date: 26 Sep 08 - 09:20 PM

Well said, as always, Amos!

Subject: RE: BS: The Debates
From: Riginslinger
Date: 26 Sep 08 - 09:20 PM

Ole Miss was the home base of William Faulkner. One man who understood racism to it's core, and could express it better than anyone before or since.

Subject: RE: BS: The Debates
From: CarolC
Date: 26 Sep 08 - 09:32 PM

I believe in Amurika.

Subject: RE: BS: The Debates
From: Joe Offer
Date: 26 Sep 08 - 09:40 PM

Ole Miss may not be Obama's "home turf," but he's doing a darn good job there. I don't think he has anything to worry about the venue.
McCain seems flustered, almost every moment of the debate.
-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS: The Debates
From: Mrrzy
Date: 26 Sep 08 - 10:17 PM

Anybody listening to the present one?

Subject: RE: BS: The Debates
From: LilyFestre
Date: 26 Sep 08 - 10:19 PM

Joe,

   Agreed.

Michelle

Subject: RE: BS: The Debates
From: Beer
Date: 26 Sep 08 - 10:34 PM

"Go Obama Go"

Subject: RE: BS: The Debates
From: catspaw49
Date: 26 Sep 08 - 10:39 PM

An old favorite of the glory days of Ole Miss................


ALMA MATER
(words by Michael McWhinney, Music by Jerry Powell)

Bright college years, we sing to thee, the golden years that quickly flee
Oh, shining moments of our youth, where we can seek the truth.
May what we learn midst toil and strife
Direct our footsteps throughout life
No man can ask for more than this, we sing to thee, Ole Miss

*We bow our heads, we give thee thanks, we'll ne'er forget, alas,
Those teargas raids, the army tanks, those riots after class
The National Guard, the barricades where we shared our first kiss
The senior prom, the hand grenades, we're going to miss Ol' Miss

We'll miss the cafeteria
That's crawling in wisteria
We'll miss the clasrooms where we learned,
And effigies we burned
My girl was only seventeen when she was chosen riot queen
These memories we'll ne'er forget, God bless thee Ross Barnett

We're going to miss Ol' Miss
Glory, glory, what a heck of a time we had
We're going to miss Ol' Miss

{*tune: America the Beautiful
the rest of the tune is a varation of "Bright College Years"
from The Mitchell Trio songbook}




Spaw

Subject: RE: BS: The Debates
From: Amos
Date: 26 Sep 08 - 10:57 PM

I was impressed with both men; their comments and remarks were predominantly substantive.

More than Obama, John McCain resorted to continuous slashes at his opponents, couching many of his remarks in ad hominem terms. But both men spoke well. McCain was the frostier of the two, but neither of them was brilliantly humane or warm.

McCain's familiarity with the world as a puzzle of threats and military maneuvers contributed strongly to his various positions, but my sense was that he overplayed the weary-soldier-from-endless-war card. Obama was stronger in balancing the needs of the nation economically alongside of the military needs of the nation.

McCain asserted a lot of military truisms for which I do not believe there is as much truth as he would like to pretend, and used them to create the vision of a dangerous world riddled with threats which he is uniquely qualified to deal with.

Obama, in contrast, was fully aware of the situations John referred to, spoke about them knowledgeably, but declined to compound them into a picture of a world fraught only with danger. As such, he was much stronger in implications of opportunity for constructive change.

It was a good tug of war, and both men carried themselves with intelligence and dignity. Obama stayed very much down to earth and McCain only flubbed once, in a minor way, when talking about Ahmadinajad.

I will be most interested to see the feedback across the country in the morning.

Subject: RE: BS: The Debates
From: heric
Date: 26 Sep 08 - 11:14 PM

Obama kept interrupting McCain, who never did the same.

McCain almost never looked at Obama, especially when Lehrer told him to. One CNN talking head said you can tell that there is something about Obama that McCain just doesn't like.

Obama and I both got a good laugh when McCain compared him to Bush in his inflexibility. That was a godd line.

I scored it as a tie. McCain needed a win.

Subject: RE: BS: The Debates
From: Ron Davies
Date: 26 Sep 08 - 11:16 PM

I saw the debate. McCain did what he set out to do--portray Obama as the neophyte in foreign policy. Obama held his own in general--especially pointing out that Afghanistan and Pakistan, not Iraq, are where the focus of any "war on terror" should be, and pointing out that we need to talk with our adversaries, not just our friends.

Obama could have hit McCain on his "League of Democracies" idea--missed an opportunity to do so-- any "League" of that sort is not likely to mean any counterweight to Putin's Russia as long as European energy needs remain what they are.   Obama should have pointed out that McCain, the elder statesman, is naive to think his "League" would have any weight--or even unity--perhaps drawing a parallel to the other well-known League--of Nations.

But McCain never blew up, as had been a possibility--in fact he remained quite calm by and large, while conveying experience and gravitas. Anybody seeking a steady hand at the tiller will likely be impressed with McCain.

Except for the section on the economic crisis. Obama nailed McCain as being an integral part of the problem--which has been building for quite a while. Too bad he didn't cite McCain's longtime good buddy, Phil Gramm and his wonderful contributions.

In any debate centering on domestic issues, the shoe will be on the other foot. And that is where the focus will be for most voters.

All in all, Obama is lucky that foreign policy will very likely take a back seat to domestic issues--and there McCain has big problems.

Subject: RE: BS: The Debates
From: Amos
Date: 26 Sep 08 - 11:24 PM

I think you're right there, Ron. Heric, the thing about Obama's "interrupting" was that it frequently occurred when Obama had started to reply to a point, and John then kept talking right through him. It was more of a reciprocal interrupt if anything.

I think Obama had more style, looked less nervous, but John held his place well and bulled his way through.


A

Subject: RE: BS: The Debates
From: Beer
Date: 26 Sep 08 - 11:26 PM

Obama I feel lost an opportunity to strike hard but didn't. But maybe it was planned that he shouldn't. I was disappointed. Both were to passive.
Beer(adrien)

Subject: RE: BS: The Debates
From: katlaughing
Date: 27 Sep 08 - 12:32 AM

I thought McCain overdid the condescension towards Obama; you could almost see him thinking, "Oh, you stupid, young whippersnapper, you!" He also lied about Obama. I was glad Obama called him on it and pointed out "John, you were wrong" on the points about the Iraq war and all. I was really pleased with how Obama came across.

Subject: RE: BS: The Debates
From: DougR
Date: 27 Sep 08 - 01:02 AM

Kat: Happy you were so pleased with the performance of your candidate's performance. I thought, on the other hand, Obama came across as a overly ambitious inexperienced politician who believes that all you have to do is promise impossible deliveries of programs to gullible people that should know better.

McCain ate his lunch.

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: The Debates
From: CarolC
Date: 27 Sep 08 - 02:20 AM

Which traditional values would those be then... empire, resource wars, torture, and gutting the Constitution?

Subject: RE: BS: The Debates
From: Little Hawk
Date: 27 Sep 08 - 03:03 AM

They would be traditional values like...militarism, zenophobia, paranoia, grandiosity, imperialism, moral blindness, stratified corruption, greed, excess, jingoism, moronic simplicity...that sort of thing.

I agree that if America votes for the "traditional values" that Americans are most familiar with instead of something newer and much wiser they will elect John McCain. That won't be good, but it would be reasonably unsurprising as far as I'm concerned.

Subject: RE: BS: The Debates
From: GUEST,Justin Urqhart
Date: 27 Sep 08 - 03:16 AM

Please don't try to twist it. The traditional values that has made America the country it is today. So what exactly are you saying ? Elect a novelty into the Oval Office ? Dump arms ? Hug ghetto brothers ? Charge National Guard vets over what happened in Kent State ?

Clearly you fear a republican victory.

Subject: RE: BS: The Debates
From: Ebbie
Date: 27 Sep 08 - 03:23 AM

Sheesh. Traditional values? No contest. Look at the record.

I was impressed by both men in the sense that both of them came off well- neither blew up, neither lost their focus. (I would say, though, that McCain said things he didn't really believe while it seemed to me that everything Obama said he meant.)

To me, Obama didn't sag anywhere but McCain surged (no pun intended) when it came to foreign matters. Not his wisdom- because if it was there, it did not show - but his long history of familiarity with trouble spots, personalities and outcomes. Obama couldn't match that but he, I thought, did very well.

As NBC said, probably those who favor McCain think that he 'won', those who favor Obama think that he won. I'll be very interested in the next debate. (Not to mention, the VP debate. snort)

What impressed me most was the change in Jim Lehrer. In contrast to last election when he was bland, low key and disengaged, tonight he was animated and on top of it.

Subject: RE: BS: The Debates
From: GUEST,Justin Urqhart
Date: 27 Sep 08 - 03:29 AM

McCain awaited the "age digs" which never came, these won the election for Regan back in the 80's.

McCain is a war hero and also suffered skin cancer, attacks on the "older" man would not go down well with the American people.

Subject: RE: BS: The Debates
From: CarolC
Date: 27 Sep 08 - 04:04 AM

The traditional values that have made the US the country that it is today are exploitation, genocide, theft of resources in other countries, slavery, waging wars against other countries (both overt as well as covert) for control of resources, raping and pillaging the environment - these are the traditional values that have made the country what it is today.

We need some new traditions and values.

Subject: RE: BS: The Debates
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 27 Sep 08 - 04:11 AM

With the drama leading up to it, it was about a C+ for political street theater.

Subject: RE: BS: The Debates
From: Joe Offer
Date: 27 Sep 08 - 04:18 AM

Well, it was a civil debate - no fireworks, and no serious flubs. It let the people see the candidates and their views, and not be distracted by the flim-flam. I was impressed by the performance of both candidates.
-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS: The Debates
From: GUEST,Justin Urqhart
Date: 27 Sep 08 - 04:42 AM

Carol please, it's not 1967.

Subject: RE: BS: The Debates
From: Teribus
Date: 27 Sep 08 - 04:50 AM

I think I'd agree with GUEST,Justin Urqhart's post of 27 Sep 08 - 02:16 AM, overall.

Obama's constant interruptions were annoying, but they did not prevent McCain putting his points across.

Obama's tactic/strategy (He doesn't know the difference) seems to be and have been to have been too busy attacking George W Bush to realise exactly what has been going on and why things have been done the way they have. John McCain touched on it in a reference to agreement between Admiral Mullen, General Petraeus, Osama bin Laden, and himself regarding the importance of the fight against terror in Iraq.

Afganistan and the assistance given to the Northern Alliance to sweep the Taleban from power was in direct response to an attack on American soil by an international terrorist group based in Afghanistan - To all those left wingers who chatter away about it - there was never a US Invasion of Afghanistan and once the Taleban had been swept from power the matter has been in the hands of the United Nations Security Council.

Iraq - In the wake of 9/11 Iraq was identified as the nation that posed the greatest threat to the United States of America. This evaluation and assessment was undertaken independent of the Bush administration by Congress and the US Security Services (No surprise they'd done the same thing and come to the same conclusion four years before for the Clinton administration).

By December 2001 neither Afghanistan, or anybody in the country was in a position to threaten the United States of America or anybody else. Experts advising Congress and all 19 intelligence and security agencies in America concluded that Iraq posed a threat and that threat had to be erradicated. The problem and the USA's concerns were taken to the UN Security Council, things looked good for a while, then they dropped the ball. America couldn't, and didn't, Bush had told them as plainly as possible from the outset, "Either you act to resolve what we see as being legitimate concerns, or we will, we have no choice".

Obama completely fluffed it in attempting to explain his withdrawal "strategy" for Iraq - it still amounts to a staged withdrawal irrespective of conditions on the ground, or advice from Commanders on the scene - i.e. the precipitous withdrawal that everybody is saying would be disasterous for all concerned.

Obama came out with the amazing statement about "The war on terror started in Afghanistan, should have been fought in Afghanistan and should end in Afghanistan". Utter nonsense "The War On Terror" is not a fight associated with one particular group, if he doesn't know it yet, the man should be appraised of the fact that "terrorist groups" like mushrooms spring to life overnight, like one-post Guest's on mudcat. Obama also misses the point that the "war" in Afghanistan now has been pushed towards the tribal areas of Pakistan and that is where the fight against terrorism in the area will be fought - Obama's solution is to attack Pakistan, McCain's is to work with the Government of Pakistan and work out a mechanism to allow cross-border co-operation - According to BBC reports from yesterday the newly elected President and Government of Pakistan are beginning to take concerted action against militants within the tribal areas.

Subject: RE: BS: The Debates
From: CarolC
Date: 27 Sep 08 - 05:59 AM

Our values haven't changed significantly since 1967. We're still doing the same things around the world now that we were doing back then.

Subject: RE: BS: The Debates
From: CarolC
Date: 27 Sep 08 - 07:35 AM

Fact checking the debate...

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/21134540/vp/26910327#26910327

Subject: RE: BS: The Debates
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 27 Sep 08 - 07:39 AM

yeh and you're doing them broke.....

Whoever got you into this situation economically has some explaining to do.

Probably a traditional idiot, which will get Justin's tradtional vote.

strange combination ...Urqhart a highland warrior's name. Justin's an interior designer.

Subject: RE: BS: The Debates
From: GUEST,Justin Urqhart
Date: 27 Sep 08 - 08:18 AM

The current situation is down to estate loans being given out too freely. Bank reclaims are unpopular with government.

Subject: RE: BS: The Debates
From: Bobert
Date: 27 Sep 08 - 08:19 AM

Well, I had a gig last night but it was over right as the debates were beginning so I missed the first 12 or so minutes but listened to it on the car radio and then on the TV when I got home and my impression is that it didn't change too many minds... Those who support McCain probably think he did better and those, like myself, who support Obama think he did better but...

...with that said, I was surprised to read this morning that polls indicate that Obama won the debate...

I was glad to hear Obama say several times "That's not true, John"... I considered those counterpunches to be body shots that may not look impressive but take a slow toll... I hope Obama will continue to use that phrase in future debates... It's a polite way of calling McCain on his obvious lies...

Now for the fun debate: Biden v. Ms. Sarah!!! Yazzir, that one is gonna be fun to watch...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: The Debates
From: catspaw49
Date: 27 Sep 08 - 08:37 AM

Heiner's Bakery makes three diet breads, Whole wheat, Vegetable fiber Wheat, and plain white. As diet breads, they're okay but most all diet breads are pretty bland as bread goes. Of the three only the Whole Wheat has any distinguishable taste.

In this debate, Plain White met Vegetable Fiber Wheat.

Spaw

Subject: RE: BS: The Debates
From: kendall
Date: 27 Sep 08 - 08:47 AM

How many of us make over 250 k per year?

I don't think either man hit a home run, but there will always be those who believe the right wing lies about O'Bama raising taxes.He even tried to push it with O'Bama standing right there!I'd hate to have his nerve in a tooth.

McCain didn't blow up, but he was obviously seething and that "shit eating grin" couldn't mask it either.

Let's look at the truth for a minute. This title, "War Hero". John McCain flew half way around the world and bombed the piss out of a country (including women and children)that had not done a damn thing to us. They shot him down, exactly what we would do, and put him in prison, exactly what we would do, when they could have simply beheaded him.
He languished in that hell hole for over 5 years and refused to cooperate with the "enemy" That, I honor him for; but, war hero? I don't get it.I also don't get how that qualifies him to be president.Well, other than the fact that this "Gingoism" appeals to the ignorant NRA redneck types.

Subject: RE: BS: The Debates
From: RangerSteve
Date: 27 Sep 08 - 08:47 AM

For the first question, both candidates spent a couple of minutes not answering the question. Jim Lehrer had to remind them what the question was. Unfortunately, that's exactly what I expected would happen. I lost interest after that.

Subject: RE: BS: The Debates
From: Ron Davies
Date: 27 Sep 08 - 08:53 AM

"all 19 intelligence and security agencies..."

Big fat deal.

It was not established then that a US massive attack on Iraq was the way to solve the danger seen.


And it still is not.

Spare us your pathetic attempt at justification, yet again, of an unnecessary war, entered into by means of a despicable propaganda campaign that all thinking beings can easily see now.

And as for McCain using Iraq as a model for Afghanistan, that dog obviously won't hunt. Main problem in Afghanistan is the lack of any good alternative to the drug-based economy.   Our enemies have found that rather than try to stamp out the drugs, it's better to exploit the situation. No Sunni "Awakening" is possible--the opposition is not stupid enough, a la Iraq, to alienate their own supporters by a thuggish "Puritanism".   Their vicious---and stupid--behavior in Iraq, not any so-called "Surge", is the main reason for the improvement there.

Subject: RE: BS: The Debates
From: Bobert
Date: 27 Sep 08 - 08:54 AM

Yeah, I gotta agree, Capt'n... McCain did come off as purdy pissed off... One of the late campaign themes that Obama is nurturing is about "temperment" and John McCain played right into that theme...

BTW, the poll I referred to is a CNN poll which has it 51-38 in Obama's favor...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: The Debates
From: SINSULL
Date: 27 Sep 08 - 09:02 AM

I watched. No surprises. Each did a fairly good job of reiterating his views. No winner.

Subject: RE: BS: The Debates
From: Azizi
Date: 27 Sep 08 - 09:13 AM

Here's some excerpts from http://www.dailykos.com/story/2008/9/26/233010/756/209/612019

CNN: Polls Say Obama Won, Disaster for McCain
by EmperorHadrian
Fri Sep 26, 2008 at 08:57:55 PM PDT

"Somehow, CNN has already conducted an actual phone poll which shows that voters overwhelmingly think Obama won the debate. Apparently, CBS just released a poll with a similar result. One CNN pundit (David Gergen) implied that these numbers, if correct, may be a fatal disastor for John McCain's campaign...

David Gergen said:

I cannot emphisize how important I think these numbers are, because this is a pivotal night for John McCain. He needed to take this night, and if these polls are right, that is a major deal in this election, because this is his home turf, because Barack Obama is the younger man, and the issue is 'can the younger man hold his own with the older guy with more experience'. Thats what John Kennedy did in 1960, because that won the debate that drove the election and elected him, because he held his own.

I don't know who won or lost, but because I cannot say that McCain definately won, I have to say that ultimately it is a loss for McCain. He is behind in the polls, and is falling further behind. Without a big win, he loses one of his last chances, maybe the last chance, to cut Obama's lead. And if he can't win tonight, when is he going to win?

Update: CNN just released some internals from their poll which showed that Obama won the debate. 48% of voters 50 and older thought Obama won, but only 40% thought McCain won. This, of course, is McCain's base. Men gave McCain a margin of only 3%, and women gave Obama a margin of about 20%. More horrible news for McCain. John King made the point that it is these people (50 and older) who are looking at their 401K's, which they spent decades building up, only to see everything now gone"...

-snip-

It appears that Senator Obama's debating strategy was to reassure the undecided voters not only that he knows about foreign policy, but also that he is not threatening. CNN polls, Halperin, and other commentors confirm that the majority of undecided viewers thought that Obama was calm, knowledgable, and presidential and McCain was much less so.

Imo, Senator McCain's rude, condescending body language coupled with his rambling comments reinforced the image of an old, tired, mean spirited man, and helped him lose this debate.

Next up-Sarah Palin vs Joe Biden. And, somehow, I don't see that going very well for the McCain-Palin camp.

Subject: RE: BS: The Debates
From: Riginslinger
Date: 27 Sep 08 - 09:19 AM

"Main problem in Afghanistan is the lack of any good alternative to the drug-based economy."

                Yes, there is an alternative. Simply legalize drugs in the western democracies, the stuff won't have any value, and the Afghani economy will collapse.

Subject: RE: BS: The Debates
From: Ron Davies
Date: 27 Sep 08 - 09:27 AM

Azizi (and David Gergen) makes the excellent point that since this election is in large part a referendum on Obama, he had to show that he knew about foreign policy--and that his policies were not so wild as to threaten the US.

And that in this debate, he accomplished both of those goals.

What's more, even if McCain had edged out Obama in this one, the focus of the US voter is on the US economy--and there, as I said, McCain has big problems. Especially his record of supporting deregulation--cue the Gramm citations, especially "nation of whiners"--will haunt him.

McCain was Gramm's campaign chairman in Gramm's 1996 presidential bid--they've been tight for a long time.

And it's their longterm philosophy of "less government", though the WSJ editorial page loves it-- which will turn off the US voter. McCain's stance of born-again populist is not convincing to the electorate.

Subject: RE: BS: The Debates
From: kendall
Date: 27 Sep 08 - 09:48 AM

Bumper sticker: McCAIN IS NO ABEL

Subject: RE: BS: The Debates
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 27 Sep 08 - 09:49 AM

McCain did what he set out to do--portray Obama as the neophyte in foreign policy.

No. But he was trying a swift boat touch, continuing his mantra "Obama doesn't understand. . ." even though Obama understands perfectly well. I suppose it was too much to hope that Obama could conclude by asking "And did Karl tell you to repeat the same tired but inaccurate phrase over and over, hoping to create a sound bite?" That's what they were trying for, a sound bite, something that would live in news broadcasts for the next six weeks without reference to the Truth.

But this debate was remarkably free of the grandstanding that was typical of so many other presidential "debates" that played lip service to the forum type. They actually tried to do a debate--more power to both of them for that. They treated the American public like they have brains in their heads.


GUEST,Justin Urqhart said
Please don't try to twist it. The traditional values that has made America the country it is today. So what exactly are you saying ? Elect a novelty into the Oval Office ? Dump arms ? Hug ghetto brothers ? Charge National Guard vets over what happened in Kent State ?

You should have listened to Bill Moyers Journal after the debate. He replayed an August 15 discussion with Andrew Bacevich--we are an economy of excess, of consumers on a scale not seen before in the entire history of the world. Not something to be proud of or want to maintain. Anyway, after the week Dubya spent trying to fund his golden parachute, any plans for the future either candidate had toward establishing universal health care or any kind of minimal socal good may go out the door. Bush is leaving such a steaming hot pile of shit for the next president to clean up that it boggles the mind that eight years will begin to be enough to start the job.

SRS

Subject: RE: BS: The Debates
From: Donuel
Date: 27 Sep 08 - 09:51 AM

It was mosty Theatre with actors upon a stage, yes?

Remarkably it was a tie when you remove factors such as the truth and ideology from the equation.

Touched upon by Amos, when McCain refers to dead US troops as dieing in vain, when and if a conflict does not end in unconditional surrender, it is a terrible thing to say and a worse thing to believe.

I pointed out this absurdity 6 years ago in a picture I made of a war memorial with the inscription "No one dies in vain as long as war is endless". In a war against terrorism there can never be an unconditional surender, there is no government to sign those terms as Japan did aboard a US battleship.
Fortunatly Obama pointed this out.

Barack however did not go for the jugular on veterans voting records or the economic suffering of real people.

Best moment for John (the expression of his sincere love for his fellow veterans)

Barack's best moment (You were Wrong...wrong...wrong)


it was not right for Barack to accuse John of not wanting to meet the Prime Misnister of Spain. John clearly confused the name of the Spainish official with Latin American countries. That was an artificial gotcha. And Barack erred on the side of statemanship than too many gotcha attempts. Obama protrayed respect while McCain portrayed elite egalitarian indignation.


999999999999999999999999999999111111111111111111111111 111111111111111


Something no one else may have noticed - BUT AT THE VERY END - when the candidates seperate to kiss their wives Obama broke a choreographed protocol. They both walked the 60 feet across the stage to shake hads with John and Cindy... OMG   McCain was livid afterward and was gesturing with bith hands at his manager for letting this Happen!

You see McCain made eye contact only once upon the initial handshake prior to te debate...after that he did not look at Barack even once.
Not during the debate and wierdly not even when they shook hands immediatly after the debate. When Mr&Mrs Obama strolled all the way over to the McCains, the theatre of Barack being the one to reach across was cinched while John was squirming to get away. Again when all four shook hands, McCain did not look at the Obamas.

Maybe you need a wide screen TV but McCain was really miffed at his female manager for letting this happen.

As theatre goes it was a small thing but emotionally albeit subliminally significant to a viewer.

Subject: RE: BS: The Debates
From: Bobert
Date: 27 Sep 08 - 09:51 AM

Yeah, I guess if the goal for Obama was to hanf tough and not allow McCain to steal a voctory then it was a successful night for Obama...

As I have pointed out, "temperment" is the quality that Obama has been slowly developing in his campaign and McCain, though he tried his best to not blow up, played right into Obama's trap with his condescending mannerisms...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: The Debates
From: Ron Davies
Date: 27 Sep 08 - 09:54 AM

SRS--It's a matter of pereception. I believe McCain did establish that he knows more about foreign policy than Obama. But Obama established that he does know quite a bit--and that he was right whether the Iraq war was justified, and McCain was wrong. And that we should talk to enemies as well as friends.

As to who "won", it was not a clear victory for either.   YMMV.

Subject: RE: BS: The Debates
From: Rapparee
Date: 27 Sep 08 - 10:13 AM

Justin:

I was in the National Guard at the time of Kent State shootings. It was a massive breakdown of command and control and both a strategic and tactical disaster. It has been used for years by the National Guard during riot control training as a TRULY good Awful Example.

Those involved WERE investigated and tried and found not guilty (not, please note, "innocent") at the time in an atmosphere of "they got what they deserved!" Three years later, when I was LIVING two minutes from Kent State, there was embarrassment over the verdict.

It is not the rank-and-file who should have been tried, but the leadership for the multiple failures involved.

I shan't discuss this further, but I DAMNED well wanted to set the record straight.

Subject: RE: BS: The Debates
From: Ron Davies
Date: 27 Sep 08 - 10:18 AM

"perception"

Subject: RE: BS: The Debates
From: Charley Noble
Date: 27 Sep 08 - 10:28 AM

Obama followed McCain's lead in identifying Iran's "Republican Guards" as a terrorist group. They both blundered in that they meant to refer to Iran's "Revolutionary Guards."

For those who followed the debate closely, I think Obama did the better job and was more tactful in challenging McCain on his mis-statements. But others will only be assessing body language and characterizing the debate as "bickering" and for those the debate results will not change any minds or decide any "undecided."

The further deterioration of the economy should be and is helping Obama but both candidates acknowledge that they will be hard-pressed to fund any major reform programs. Obama, however, was able to prioritize what he would fund, and provide reasons why.

Charley Noble

Subject: RE: BS: The Debates
From: GUEST,bankley
Date: 27 Sep 08 - 10:35 AM

In Canada there are 5 'leaders' in the debates, The Media tried to exclude Ms. May( Green Party) but relented under pressure... one will end up PM.. probably Harper again...

I watched the US debates last night for less then a minute... 30 seconds to McCain, about 25 sec. for Obama... I know that this is where the big money lies... I also know that there are other candidates being shut out... Chuck Baldwin, Ralph Barr, Cynthia McKinney, Ralph Nader... It would be more interesting (and democratic) to let them have their say. Say what you want, these folks can swing enough votes to determine the outcome in a close call... this is some serious stuff... with all due respect, and with the risk of pissing off both sides here, I don't think that 2 sock puppets putting on show solves much....

Subject: RE: BS: The Debates
From: Riginslinger
Date: 27 Sep 08 - 10:41 AM

I wonder if McCain would have avoided the debate if Bob Barr had not volunteered to stand it for him. McCain, faced with the vision of Barr and Obama taking alternate pot-shots at him felt like he had to go on.

               If the polls swing in Obama's favor now, Bob Barr might be able to claim the distinction of getting the Democrat elected.

Subject: RE: BS: The Debates
From: Ron Davies
Date: 27 Sep 08 - 10:51 AM

"felt like he had to go on". Not likely. McCain realized that staying in DC would be seen as pointless grandstanding.

Subject: RE: BS: The Debates
From: freda underhill
Date: 27 Sep 08 - 10:59 AM

This article in the washington post is interesting. It analyses misleading "assertions" made by both candidates in the debate, and gives the facts on events referred to.

For example:

10:20 p.m.
McCain seriously mistated his vote concerning the marines in Lebanon. He said that when he went into Congress in 1983, he voted against deploying them in Beirut. The Marines went in Lebanon in 1982, before McCain came to Congress. The vote came up a year into their deployment, when the Marines had already suffered 54 casualties. What McCain voted against was a measure to invoke the War Powers Act and to authorize the deployment of U.S. Marines in Lebanon for an additional 18 months. The measure passed 270-161, with 26 other Republicans (including McCain) and 134 Democrats voting against it.

and

10:29 p.m.
On Afghanistan, Obama once again twisted McCain's words when he said, "at one point, while you were focused on Iraq, you said, well, we can muddle through Afghanistan."

That was a reference to comments McCain made in 2003 in which the Arizona senator expressed concern, but cautious optimism, about the long-term prospects of Afghanistan. "I believe that if Karzai can make the progress that he is making, that - in the long term, we may muddle through in Afghanistan," McCain said.
--Michael Abramowitz

Subject: RE: BS: The Debates
From: Azizi
Date: 27 Sep 08 - 11:22 AM

http://www.mediacurves.com/ found that 61% of Independents believed Obama won the debate, while 38.89% favored McCain as the winner. On each of the eight topics, Obama was a clear winner among Independents, with his highest score coming on the Iran issue - two-thirds of Independents thought he won this question.

-snip-

The topics polled were [Percentages of Independents]*
Financial Recovery Plan: O-60.76%; M-39.24%
Economic Plan: O-55.95%; M-44.05%
Government Spending: O-53.39%; M-46.61%
Lessons Learned From The Iraq War: O-59.52% ; M-40.48%
Sending More Troops To Afghanistan: O-56.86% ; M-43.14%
Threat of Iran: O-61.82%; M-38.18%
US Relationship With Russia: O-66.67%; M-33.33%
Likelihood Of Another 9-11: O-61.11% ; M-38.89%
Who Won The Debate: O-61.11%; M-38.89%

*Percentages for Democrats and Republicans were also given on that page.

-snip-

Additional newspaper reports & online reports about the debate are found in this article: http://www.dailykos.com/storyonly/2008/9/27/5947/86693/1011/612234

Saturday Morning Battleground Reaction: The Debate
by Kula2316
Sat Sep 27, 2008 at 02:13:11 AM PDT

Subject: RE: BS: The Debates
From: Azizi
Date: 27 Sep 08 - 11:27 AM

Correction:

Likelihood Of Another 9-11: O-56.82% ; M-43.18%

Subject: RE: BS: The Debates
From: Bill D
Date: 27 Sep 08 - 11:28 AM

Justin Urquart said:

"Clearly you fear a republican victory."

oh indeed! We have 8 years of republican mess already.

Another few years and we will have a military draft again because a volunteer army will not be able to fight all the battles the republicans are itching to fight.

   We will have about a 7-2 conservative majority on the Supreme court, allowing conservatives to impose their 'values' on everyone else.

We will further increase the gap between the rich and the poor, while 'free enterprise' manipulates the markets to benefit the upper 5%.

and the finances?

and the rescue?

We will have more lying in government, aided by more cronyism, self-deception and pure incompetence.

We will have only lip service paid to most environmental issues, with 'change' in policies driven only by the possibility of certain business interests making money on it.

We will have even less respect in the world at large as we invade, insult or ignore any country we think we can bully.

I could go on.....

Why yes, Justin...I certainly do fear another Republican victory.

Subject: RE: BS: The Debates
From: GUEST,Justin Urquart
Date: 27 Sep 08 - 12:12 PM

Bill, McCain will win because Obama is an obominable candidate. I can not believe how many of Obama's past relationships tie back to Kenya, Syria, Middle East, Malcolm X, Farrakan, and Frank Marshall Davis, known communist. America must wake up.

Obama would be the worst president since Jimmy Carter. Some responses here talk about Bush and the increased national debt. What if 9/11 never happened? You democrats remember 9/11 don't you?

No president besides FDR ever faced such an attack, so Bush - like FDR - went on the offensive. Doubtful Al Gore, if elected instead of Bush, would have done the same thing. Maybe like his mentor, Bill Clinton, after the first Trade Center attack - he'd launch ONE cruise missle and blow up a camel in a desserted training camp. That really showed 'em, huh?

Public opinion on Bush has been manipulated mostly by the liberal press. Katrina is a perfect example. Bush gets blamed when the New Orleans mayor and governor of Lousiana both sit on their hands while the storm approaches and hits - then point the finger at the federal government. The media all but accused Bush of calling in that hurricane too.

Yes, national debt has increased under Bush - but you pay less taxes. Imagine if unpatriotic Obama got elected. (Anyone notice he took the painting of the American flag off his jet???) You'll see change for sure - but it will be the change left in your pocket after the democrats raise your taxes -and they will because they ALWAYS do and Obama said so in his OWN WORDS. God help us if he's elected.

John McCain will win the election. The Democratics no longer have
Hispanic voters in their pocket. The Mexican-American
community has come of age. As the oldest and most dominant group in Hispanic America, they are no longer poor, uneducated and are extremely patriotic. They have the largest number of veterans and the largest number of children in Uniform. They are also conservative Christians and detest the politics
of the left wing Democrats.


Those Americans who love their country trust McCain. and those Americans who fought the Black community for community funds in the 60's and 70's don't trust Obama and the Black leaders
that are pushing the BLT agenda again, ever Stevie Wonder is getting in on the act. Chicanos will not vote for a Black Muslim Candidate. We know their history too well.

Obama and his liberal cohorts will fade into memory. American WILL NOT see Cotton planted on the front lawn of the White House come November or re-runs of Roots on television. Of that be assured.

Subject: RE: BS: The Debates
From: Ebbie
Date: 27 Sep 08 - 12:16 PM

The McCain camp is making a big deal of Obama saying various times that 'John' was right. I think that Obama acknowledging when he agreed with McCain was the mark of a negotiator, a person who reaches across the aisle.

If I recall correctly McCain not once granted Obama the same courtesy.Instead he would condescendingly say things like of course, everyone knows that.


"Nine Times"? Versus Zero?



http://embeds.blogs.foxnews.com/2008/09/26/john-is-right/

Subject: RE: BS: The Debates
From: kendall
Date: 27 Sep 08 - 12:30 PM

Dream on! Now, give us some facts to back up what you said about O'Bama's foreign attachments. What you quoted sounds like typical right wing crap to me.

Bush wasn't to blame for Katrina? he didn't show his puss for a week! Same with this latest crisis. No one knew where he was. 9/11 he sat dumbfounded with a child's book in his hand when he was told about the attack. It was a while before someone told him how to act.

Subject: RE: BS: The Debates
From: kendall
Date: 27 Sep 08 - 12:33 PM

I won't make a prediction, but if the voters concentrate on issues rather than ethnicity O'Bama and Biden will win.

This country is addicted to war.

Subject: RE: BS: The Debates
From: Little Hawk
Date: 27 Sep 08 - 12:42 PM

Damn right the USA is addicted to war. That is the defining characteristic of the USA and it is why it's the most feared country on Earth at the present time.

Subject: RE: BS: The Debates
From: heric
Date: 27 Sep 08 - 12:52 PM

It would be good to have the questions prepared by the minor candidates. (Couldn't have them in person, though.)

---

I wish Lehrer had asked each candidate the important questions with the intro: "When you light up the hills of Pakistan . . . "

---

The first question, repeatedly asked, was not fairly stated. It was "Will you sign this bailout?" The only defined bailout - the two page proposal - was rejected by all recipients a long time ago. "This bailout" is not something that currently exists.

Subject: RE: BS: The Debates
From: Bill D
Date: 27 Sep 08 - 12:54 PM

(ummm.. Kendall.. Obama isn't Irish... there is no apostrophe in his name.)

Justin... you have parroted all the slimy rumors about Obama. That is not data, it is fear-mongering.

Anyone who shouts "America...wake up!" after swift-boat type innuendo cannot BE debated. Their mind is clogged with slogans and lies.

Subject: RE: BS: The Debates
From: Little Hawk
Date: 27 Sep 08 - 01:01 PM

Hey, it worked in Berlin in 1936...why shouldn't it work in America?

Subject: RE: BS: The Debates
From: Ebbie
Date: 27 Sep 08 - 01:03 PM

JustinUrquart, would you like the whole nation to be as racist as you? Would that make us a better, stronger society?

Subject: RE: BS: The Debates
From: Little Hawk
Date: 27 Sep 08 - 01:09 PM

Ein volk! Ein Reich! Ein Fuhrer!

Many foreign (and domestic) "enemies"...

Well, we have ways of dealing with them, don't we? Ask a few hundred thousand dead Iraqis about that.

Subject: RE: BS: The Debates
From: Donuel
Date: 27 Sep 08 - 01:59 PM

Justin McRacist,

you are right that, "Public opinion on Bush has been manipulated mostly by..."

every fucked up unamerican, undemocratic, unconstitutional travsty he has done and allowed to be done in his name."

Subject: RE: BS: The Debates
From: Amos
Date: 27 Sep 08 - 02:04 PM

"his campaign has been so chock full of excitement, however, that the debate lost some of its normal most-important-moment-in-history sheen. The real tension, after all, had been getting McCain there in the first place. A simple trip to Mississippi turned into a saga featuring many, many rapidly changing story lines:

* Cancel the debate!

* Maybe cancel the debate!

* No debate unless Congress passes a financial rescue bill!

* No debate unless Congress has a plan to pass a financial rescue bill.

* Oh, what the heck.

After all that, when the wandering debater finally showed up Friday night, he just looked like a smallish, grayish, slightly grumpy guy with a grizzly obsession.

To be fair, it had been a very long week for McCain, what with ruling out the debate, ruling in the debate and returning to a Senate from which he has been AWOL so long that it's believed his desk is now being used to store janitorial supplies.

He raced there in answer to the crisis call, after a brief detour to New York to deliver a desperately needed speech on fossil fuels at the Clinton Global Initiative. He could not have sounded more filled with passion about service and country and the need for his leadership. Then he joined President Bush, Obama and members of Congress in a White House meeting that his campaign had orchestrated, where he sat in near-silence as a bipartisan consensus fell apart.

One thing we now know for sure. Electing John McCain would be God's gift to the profession of journalism. A story a minute.

Imagine what would happen if a new beetle infested the Iowa corn crop during the first year of a McCain administration. On Monday, we spray. On Tuesday, we firebomb. On Wednesday, the president marches barefoot through the prairie in a show of support for Iowa farmers. On Thursday, the White House reveals that Wiley Flum, a postal worker from Willimantic, Conn., has been named the new beetle eradication czar. McCain says that Flum had shown "the instincts of a maverick reformer" in personally buying a box of roach motels and scattering them around the post office locker room. "I can't wait to introduce Wiley to those beetles in Iowa," the president adds.

On Friday, McCain announces he's canceling the weekend until Congress makes the beetles go away.

Barack Obama would just round up a whole roomful of experts and come up with a plan. Yawn."

NYT Columnist

Subject: RE: BS: The Debates
From: Amos
Date: 27 Sep 08 - 02:08 PM

Two summations from NYTimes contributors: (See full article at http://campaignstops.blogs.nytimes.com/):

"This first debate between John McCain and Barack Obama reminded me of 1996 when Senator Bob Dole debated President Bill Clinton.

Like Bill Clinton, Mr. Obama gave a broader world view and vision about how the world had changed, how we need a president who can handle the complexities of the global financial crisis – one who can relate to the middle class and restore America's standing in world affairs.

In contrast, Mr. McCain painted very much a Bob Dole-esque picture of a president steeped in the Senate, in experience, and in tax and spending cuts – one who is concerned about veterans and taking a tough approach to allies and enemies.

Both had their moments, but Mr. McCain owned the past and Mr. Obama owned the future. …

The First Debate: A Win for Obama
By MICHAEL A. COHEN
Michael A. Cohen is a senior research fellow at the New America Foundation and the author of "Live From the Campaign Trail: The Greatest Presidential Campaign Speeches of the 20th Century and How They Shaped Modern America." (Full biography.)

Any analysis of the first presidential debate in Oxford, Miss,. must begin with a simple question:What was each candidate trying to achieve?

For Barack Obama it was all about the half of all Americans who still think he lacks the requisite qualifications to be president. Would he seem knowledgeable and effective in talking about serious foreign policy issues? Would he be able to reassure them that they can trust him with the nation's most powerful job? Would he be able to go toe-to-toe with John McCain.

For Mr. McCain, who is trailing in the polls and has had a rough two-week stretch since the financial crisis broke, he needed a clear victory Friday night. Considering that foreign policy is seen as his strong point he needed to portray Mr. Obama as naïve and inexperienced and not up to the job of commander in chief. More important, after his behavior of this past week, he needed to cultivate an air of statesmanship and counteract the growing chorus of recklessness being heard in the national media.

On a substantive level, both candidates acquitted themselves well. In a political vacuum, this debate would seem like a tie. But as any fan of baseball knows, the tie goes to the runner.

Well, in politics, the tie goes to the candidate who has the momentum and right now that candidate is Barack Obama and from that perspective the debate was an important tactical victory for him. …

Subject: RE: BS: The Debates
From: Amos
Date: 27 Sep 08 - 02:14 PM

US presidential debate: Early polls give Barack Obama slender victory
Barack Obama appears to have won a slender victory over John McCain in the first presidential debate, a vital test for both candidates in America's knife-edge election campaign.

By Philip Sherwell in Oxford, Mississippi
Last Updated: 6:33PM BST 27 Sep 2008

Two instant television polls and a focus group conducted by top consultant Frank Luntz gave the Democratic senator a lead over his Republican rival among the all-important undecided voters.

His apparent victory was not clear cut, however, with some pundits declaring Sen McCain the winner on points just five weeks before Americans cast their ballots.
Although the party nomination battles began 20 months ago and the election has already cost more than $1 billion, this was the first time that many Americans will have focused closely on the performance of the two candidates to replace President George W Bush.

Subject: RE: BS: The Debates
From: CarolC
Date: 27 Sep 08 - 02:21 PM

Grow cotton on the white house lawn. Hmmm... So we know why that poster won't be voting for Obama. But the rest of us can see that poster's shoes under the white robes. I guess the "traditional values" that poster is referring to would be unapologetic racism.

Subject: RE: BS: The Debates
From: Amos
Date: 27 Sep 08 - 03:14 PM

Time's Joe Klein calls it a narrow victory for Obama:

Obama emerged as a candidate who was at least as knowledgeable, judicious and unflappable as McCain on foreign policy ... and more knowledgeable, and better suited to deal with the economic crisis and domestic problems the country faces.
On ABC, George Stephanopoulos concluded:

And overall, bottom line, the winner is Barack Obama. He comes into this race where the country wants change, his number one goal was to show that he belonged on that stage...he could hold his own on national security, he did that tonight, he gets the win.
Appearing alongside him was George Will, who also said Obama came out ahead:

I think Barack Obama came out and looked comfortable and as though he belonged there. So, in a sense, the structure of the debate, indeed, the fact of the debate had to give a mild leg up to Barack Obama.



Several positive reviews for Obama. A CBS News instant poll finds:

40% of uncommitted voters who watched the debate tonight thought Barack Obama was the winner. 22% thought John McCain won. 38% saw it as a draw.

68% of these voters think Obama would make the right decision
about the economy. 41% think McCain would.

49% of these voters think Obama would make the right decisions about Iraq. 55% think McCain would.

Subject: RE: BS: The Debates
From: GUEST,Justin Urquart
Date: 27 Sep 08 - 03:17 PM

Same old story. when George W. Bush was elected president you couldn't accept it. When John McCain IS elected president you will come this shit again.

So many of you seem to think this guy Obama is the "Second Coming" and he has the solution to all our problems. Hmmm, Somalia, Zimbabwe, Chad, Ethiopia, and Southern Sudan come to mind.

When the nation votes please accept it. Now please explain what this word Democratic means to you ?

---

You will notice that some of your posts have been deleted. You are a guest here, a stranger to the regular participants of this forum. Therefore, you are expected to be on your best behavior. Stick to the issues being discussed and refrain from personal attacks and name-calling of any sort.
Thank you.
-Joe Offer, Forum Moderator-

Subject: RE: BS: The Debates
From: Amos
Date: 27 Sep 08 - 03:32 PM

Justin:

By the way, Obama did not take the American Flag off his jet, you right-wing ditto-headed blatherskite. He simply moved it -- to the port quarter, I believe. As for a lack of patriotism, if you interpret the current state of the United States as the result of patriotism I feel sorry for you and your delusions about what patriotism consists of. Because it is in fact not healthy for the country to operate on knee-jerk pushbutton hatred, as you seem inclined to do.


A

Subject: RE: BS: The Debates
From: katlaughing
Date: 27 Sep 08 - 03:56 PM

Billdarlin'...O'Bama IS Irish! Click Here. Be sure to scroll down to Guest, Sharon's post with the youtube link. Shay Black sings it at the Starry Plough in Berkeley!

Subject: RE: BS: The Debates
From: Rapparee
Date: 27 Sep 08 - 03:56 PM

Justin, if Obama wins will you accept it?

By the way, I did not and will not watch the so-called "debates." Years ago they degenerated into a question and answer session which only allows the candidates to answer in sound bites and to interpret and insult their opponent. They are NOT debates in the true sense of a debate.

Subject: RE: BS: The Debates
From: katlaughing
Date: 27 Sep 08 - 04:15 PM

So, BillD, didja check out that song, yet? There are a couple of Mudcatters in that video, too!

Amos, any more stats for us, just the facts, ya know?**bg**

Subject: RE: BS: The Debates
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 27 Sep 08 - 04:31 PM

Including the drama that went with it(if McCain would make it), I thought it rated a C+, as far as political street theater.

Subject: RE: BS: The Debates
From: Alice
Date: 27 Sep 08 - 04:37 PM

From fivethirtyeight.com, Electoral Projections done right

Why voters watching the debate thought Obama won:


http://www.fivethirtyeight.com/

"Specifically, by a 62-32 margin, voters thought that Obama was "more in touch with the needs and problems of people like you". This is a gap that has no doubt grown because of the financial crisis of recent days. But it also grew because Obama was actually speaking to middle class voters."

Subject: RE: BS: The Debates
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 27 Sep 08 - 04:50 PM

I HAVE DECIDED TO BECOME A WRITE-IN CANDIDATE.

HERE IS MY PLATFORM:

(1) 'Press 1 for English' is immediately banned. English is the official language; speak it or wait at the border until you can.

(2) We will immediately go into a two year isolationist posture to straighten out the country's attitude. NO imports, no exports.
We will use the 'Wal-Mart's policy, 'If we ain't got it, you don't need it.'

(3) When imports are allowed, there will be a 100% import tax on it.

(4) All retired military personnel will be required to man one of our many observation towers on the southern border. (six month tour) They will be under strict orders not to fire on SOUTHBOUND aliens.

(5) Social security will i mmediately return to its original state. If you didn't put nuttin in, you ain't gettin nuttin out. The president nor any other politician will not be able to touch it.


(6) Welfare - Checks will be handed out on Fridays at the end of the 40 hour school week and the successful completion of urinalysis and a passing grade.

(7) Professional Athletes --Steroids - The FIRST time you check positive you're banned for life.

(8) Crime - We will adopt the Turkish method, the first time you steal, you lose your right hand. There is no more life sentences. If convicted, you will be put to death by the same method you chose for your victim; gun, knife, strangulation, etc.

(9) One export will be allowed; Wheat, The world needs to eat. A bushel of wheat will be the exact price of a barrel of oil.

(10) All foreign aid using American taxpayer money will immediately cease, and the saved money will pay off the national debt and ultimately lower taxes. When disasters occur ar ound the world, we'll ask the American people if they want to donate to a disaster fund, and each citizen can make the decision whether it's a worthy cause.

(11) The Pledge of Allegiance will be said every day at school and every day in Congress.

(12) The National Anthem will be played at all appropriate ceremonies, sporting events, outings, etc.

Sorry if I stepped on anyone's toes but a vote for me will get you better than what you have, and better than what you're gonna get. Thanks for listening, and remember to write in my name on the ballot in November.
                God Bless America !!!!!!!!!!!

                                                 Bill Cosby!!!!!!!!

---

You posted this twice. The other copy was deleted.
-Joe Offer, Forum Moderator-

Subject: RE: BS: The Debates
From: katlaughing
Date: 27 Sep 08 - 05:04 PM

THE ABOVE IS FALSELY ATTRIBUTED TO BILL COSBY!!!!

Check SNOPES for the Truth.

Subject: RE: BS: The Debates
From: kendall
Date: 27 Sep 08 - 05:10 PM

Bill, I didn't know O'Bama was Irish, I only do that to piss off the racists.

Subject: RE: BS: The Debates
From: Riginslinger
Date: 27 Sep 08 - 06:30 PM

"THE ABOVE IS FALSELY ATTRIBUTED TO BILL COSBY!!!!"


                     We need to find out who came up with it then. It's brilliant!

Subject: RE: BS: The Debates
From: DougR
Date: 27 Sep 08 - 07:04 PM

Carol C:"We need some new traditions and values." Such as ...?
(It's pretty difficult, though, to create new "traditions" isn't it?)

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: The Debates
From: kendall
Date: 27 Sep 08 - 07:19 PM

Regarding that flag on the tail of the plane thing, there was no choice in removing it. That is a trademark of the company that owned the plane, and they had to remove it.
It's this right wing crap that keeps circulating like a turd in plugged up toilet that pisses me off. The truth is not enough for you birds, so you make up lies.
Spirited discussions are good for us, but spreading lies serves no purpose at all. There was a time when lies took too long to run down, but now, thanks to snopes, google and Yahoo, it is a matter of minutes to learn the truth.

Subject: RE: BS: The Debates
From: Bobert
Date: 27 Sep 08 - 08:14 PM

"Well, your flag decal won't get you into heaven anyymore..."

Nuff said about this rediculous argument...

Face it, folks, John McCain who has saddled mimself with a Roller Derby Queen for VP and is running as a Bush supporter ***had*** to win big last night...

He didn't...

Throw in a campaign built around subterfuge, he is running out of time...

Oh, and as for the new GUEST... Me thinks he/she ain't all that new... Too bad there isn't a way to track some of these GUESTs because they feel they can just say wahtever comes into their little pea-brains and when they have completely been shown to be mental midget assh*les they then just pick a new handle and keep on firing their narrow minded venom... Must be nice... I've posted over 14,000 times here and that is the body of my work and I stand behind each and every one of those posts which means...

...whereas I might get a little rowdy at times I had better be prepared to accept "personal responsibility" for everything I post...

Not so these revolving door GUESTs who wouldn't know "personal responsibility" if it bit them on their ass...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: The Debates
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 27 Sep 08 - 08:42 PM

As always people always seem to think their favoured candidate did better.

The bits I saw they both came across as pretty wooden. Not surprising, the way these debates are set up is so ponderous.

And I suppose the fact that most people are never going to watch the whole thing, but rely on sound-bites must on the one hand make them terribly anxious to avoid anything that could be yanked out and make them look silly or cocky or whatever. And on the other hand they have to drag in pre-packaged and over rehearsed bits they hope will be used as sound-bites.

Subject: RE: BS: The Debates
From: Amos
Date: 27 Sep 08 - 08:56 PM

Well, I did watch the whole thing.

But I've already said what I think.


A

Subject: RE: BS: The Debates
From: Amos
Date: 27 Sep 08 - 10:17 PM

From Forbes:

"Obama vs. McCain: Early Results

Winning a debate is no guarantee that a candidate will win an election, and online polls open to all comers are flawed at best. That aside, as of last read, and with over a quarter of a million responses, Barack Obama leads John McCain 51% to 35% in response to a post-debate MSNBC poll on who won tonight's contest. Only 6.4% respondents agreed with my earlier assertion that the debate was basically a wash.

Obama is already ahead of McCain in national polls and in the electoral college forecasts, but he'll need to keep working hard; under some scenarios, John McCain could come out ahead by taking just a few strategic states in which he's polling close to Obama.

–Steve Kichen"

Subject: RE: BS: The Debates
From: GUEST,Justin Urquart
Date: 28 Sep 08 - 02:54 AM

I wasn't aware this was a Democratic party site. Oh well come November a all of you will just have to accept the count ! I really don't see Obama having a slim chance Kat do you ?

Subject: RE: BS: The Debates
From: Amos
Date: 28 Sep 08 - 03:00 AM

Right now the slim chance he doesn't have is 6 points ahead.

Hmmmm....


A

Subject: RE: BS: The Debates
From: CarolC
Date: 28 Sep 08 - 03:14 AM

Such as...

I think we're already in the process of establishing some new traditions. I see ever larger numbers of people turning away from the greed, selfishness, jingoism, triumphalism, and outright racism that have been the core of our value system for centuries, and they're gravitating more towards a sense of collective responsibility, and toward behaving consciously, sustainably, equitably, and with integrity. These values don't have to be imposed on people. All the time, more and more people are embracing these values on their own.

Subject: RE: BS: The Debates
From: GUEST,Justin Urquart
Date: 28 Sep 08 - 03:17 AM

Please don't tell me you believe he will do it Amos. It isn't go'a happen. In fact, Bobert would make a better choice with his 14,000 posts !

Subject: RE: BS: The Debates
From: Joe Offer
Date: 28 Sep 08 - 03:47 AM

Well, Justin, this is a folk music site, not a Democratic Party site....but I would venture a guess that the vast majority of American folkies are Democrats.
It's worthwhile to have your opposing opinion expressed here so that the masses don't get too doctrinaire - but remember that you are a guest here, and you are expected to behave yourself.
-Joe Offer-

If you wish to contact me, do so by e-mail.
[e-mail]

Subject: RE: BS: The Debates
From: Riginslinger
Date: 28 Sep 08 - 09:53 AM

Moving right along--now that McCain has gone to Washington and saved the financial bail-out, his number ought to start shooting up. People will now be able to understand the many points he was trying to make in the debate.

Subject: RE: BS: The Debates
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 28 Sep 08 - 10:37 AM

A few questions the debate raised (to me, at least).
1. How does John McCain define the Surge?
2. What does McCain think that "victory" in Iraq would consist of.
3. If Obama's planning on funding his progrms, in large part, of mony he wouldn't be spending in Iraq, how will he fund the Afghanistan war?
4. If McCain thinks extensive experience is so important, how can he justify the choice of Palin for VP?
5. Exactly what is meant by "preconditions"?

Subject: RE: BS: The Debates
From: Bill D
Date: 28 Sep 08 - 10:40 AM

When someone like Justin makes those kind of predictions, they sure leave themselves open to remarks if they are wrong. These threads don't disappear, and on Nov.5, we will see who can smile and chuckle.

Those of us who are registered are kinda stuck... "Justin" might need to become "Rumplestiltskin".

Subject: RE: BS: The Debates
From: Teribus
Date: 28 Sep 08 - 10:47 AM

You mean just like on Nov.5 2004 BillD, weren't too may on this site smiling and chuckling that day, and of course Kerry was as bound to win that one as assuredly as the same folks are saying that Obama is to winning this one.

Subject: RE: BS: The Debates
From: Bill D
Date: 28 Sep 08 - 11:21 AM

Well, Teribus... you note I don't make predictions. I am pointing out that doing so in a bold manner is dangerous.

You are quite correct that many here were quite unhappy with the 2004 results...just as we were disgusted with the 2000 results, where the arcane electoral system got the wrong man into office. (and there were very dubious results in 2 states)

So...THIS election, the Republicans have the burden of the current administration to carry, and McCain has to do that funny walk where he supports Bush policies in general, but distances himself on almost every specific, and swears he will 'change' all those corrupt ways in Washington - which he is part of and whose basics he ...ummmm.... supports.
    Makes for a weird message, and the polls are showing it. No wonder we Democratic supporters are cautiously optimistic.

Since I can't afford to lose ANY significant amount of money, I don't make large bets, but I kinda think that a $ on Obama might be safe....

Subject: RE: BS: The Debates
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 28 Sep 08 - 11:26 AM

Justin - I'm willing to bet John McCain would be ashamed to have a supporter like you.

Growing cotton on the White House lawn......... its a disgraceful thing to say, and its no wonder you have infuriated people of all political persuasions and nationalities on this site.

Subject: RE: BS: The Debates
From: Riginslinger
Date: 28 Sep 08 - 11:47 AM

I don't know. The way things are going, folks might find they need to grow cotton any place they can.

Subject: RE: BS: The Debates
From: GUEST,Justin Urquart
Date: 28 Sep 08 - 11:48 AM

WLD, And ??????

Subject: RE: BS: The Debates
From: Stringsinger
Date: 28 Sep 08 - 12:43 PM

McCain was petulant, snarly, impulsive and mean. Obama was poised, quiet, athoritative
and sensible.

In the meantime, McCain is getting called out for lies not just by David Letterman but
the New York Times who have disclosed McCain's shady gambling deals by quashing
Abramoff to protect his own turf.

He was in the Club 21 doing a fundraiser when he was supposed to be on that plane
to Washington.

In the meantime, Sarah Palin is receiving the blessing of Thomas Muthey, a preacher from Nigeria who is in the news because he has hounded an old lady out of her town accused
of withcraft by Muthey. Sarah Palin has a huge preacher problem.

Subject: RE: BS: The Debates
From: GUEST,Justin Urquart
Date: 28 Sep 08 - 12:55 PM

Have any of you considered opening your front door and entering the real world ? You could start with this site, you will get all the facts you require and the truth of course, which clearly some of you can't accept. DONOTVOTEFOROBAMA.COM
I rest my case.

Subject: RE: BS: The Debates
From: Amos
Date: 28 Sep 08 - 01:12 PM

Rig:

Ooops! Something went wrong with your plan, maybe its fundamental premises:

RCP Average        09/21 - 09/27        --        47.9        43.1        Obama +4.8
Gallup Tracking        09/25 - 09/27        2719 RV        50        42        Obama +8
Rasmussen Tracking        09/25 - 09/27        3000 LV        50        44        Obama +6
Hotline/FD Tracking        09/25 - 09/27        914 RV        47        42        Obama +5
GW/Battleground Tracking        09/21 - 09/25        1000 LV        46        48        McCain +2
CBS News/NY Times        09/21 - 09/24        LV        48        43        Obama +5
FOX News        09/22 - 09/23        900 RV        45        39        Obama +6
Marist        09/22 - 09/23        689 LV        49        44        Obama +5

Subject: RE: BS: The Debates
From: Riginslinger
Date: 28 Sep 08 - 01:16 PM

No! The plan's fine, but it isn't scheduled to go into effect until Palin wipes up with Biden on Thursday.

Subject: RE: BS: The Debates
From: Amos
Date: 28 Sep 08 - 01:27 PM

Mwahahahaha!!! That's great, Rig. Sugarplums guard your sleep until then.

"Mr. McCain's lead-with-the-chin approach to Russia reflects the same pugnacity that resulted in obscenity-laced dust-ups with fellow Republican senators, but it's less endearing when the risk is nuclear war. Do we really want to risk an exchange of nuclear warheads over Abkhazia or South Ossetia? The Spanish prime minister, José Zapatero, told me a few days ago that what he fears most under a McCain administration is a revival of the cold war with Russia.

In Friday's debate, Mr. McCain was on his best behavior. But he did reiterate his suspicion of diplomacy with our enemies, and he has often shown that his instinct in a confrontation (whether with a colleague or a country) is the opposite of John Kennedy's in the Cuban missile crisis; Mr. McCain responds to challenges by seeking to escalate, to fight.

All in all, it's astonishing that Mr. McCain seems determined to return to Mr. Bush's first-term policies that have been utterly discredited even within the administration. Judging from Mr. McCain's own positions, on foreign policy he could well end up more Bush than Bush." (NYT column)

Subject: RE: BS: The Debates
From: Little Hawk
Date: 28 Sep 08 - 02:14 PM

Justin, if you were to open your front door and enter the real world (the one that lies outside the USA) you would find that the world in general fears your nation in much the same way that it once feared Nazi Germany, back in the late 1930's...in the years leading up to WWII. Your behaviour and attitude toward other nations is quite similar. Your insistence on being "the greatest country on Earth" is also quite similar to Nazi Germany. You are living inside a bubble of paranoid and extremely dangerous political illusions.

Subject: RE: BS: The Debates
From: Amos
Date: 28 Sep 08 - 02:39 PM

"McCain lost control of his campaign and then, in a gimmicky attempt to gain back ground, ended up in the Cabinet Room with W. when the bipartisan economic meeting collapsed in a humiliating nondeal, causing President Bush to lose control of his White House.

It was quite a memorable moment in history for the M.B.A. president and the nominee of the party of business. Who would have dreamed that when socialism finally came to the U.S.A. it would be brought not by Bolsheviks in blue jeans but Wall Street bankers in Gucci loafers?

The Republicans had a lot to answer for. The Bush administration had been warned about Osama bin Laden attacking and did nothing. It had been warned that there would be a civil war and insurgency if it attacked Iraq. It had been warned that Katrina was coming. It had been warned that the country's financial casinos were courting disaster.

W. biked through all those eves of destruction.

Given the past week, the debate should have been a cinch for Obama. But, just as in the primaries, he willfully refuses to accept what debates are about. It's not a lecture hall; it's a joust. It's not how cerebral you are. It's how visceral you are. You need memorable, sharp, forceful and witty lines.

Even when McCain sneered, "I don't need any on-the-job training, I'm ready to go at it right now," Obama didn't directly respond, but veered off into a story about his father being from Kenya and how he got his name. (Thanks, Barack, we got that from your book. It's great for a memoir, but not a debate.)

McCain kept painting Obama as naïve, and dangerous, insisting that he "doesn't quite understand or doesn't get it."

Obama should have responded "Senator, I understand perfectly, I'm just saying you're wrong."

On the surge, he could have said that McCain was the arsonist who wanted to be praised for the great job he's doing putting out the fire he started.

When Obama took quiet umbrage at McCain's attack about troop-funding, he could have pounded the lectern and said with real anger: "John, I am sick and tired of you suggesting that I would take funds away from our brave soldiers. I no more voted for that than you did when you voted against our funding proposals that would have imposed a timetable. And unlike you, I did not vote against funding increases for the troops that have come home with devastating physical and mental injuries."

And who cares what Henry Kissinger thinks? He was wrong 35 years ago, and it's only gotten worse since then.

Obama did a poor job of getting under McCain's skin. Or maybe McCain did an exceptional job of not letting Obama get under his skin. McCain nattered about earmarks and Obama ran out of gas.

We're left waiting for a knockout debate. On to Palin-Biden."

(Maureen Dowd, NYT)

Subject: RE: BS: The Debates
From: Amos
Date: 28 Sep 08 - 03:11 PM

By the way, among the blatant falsehood McCain told, and sopme of his supporters have echoed, is the notion that Obama "oppopsed nuclear power as part of the energy solution".

To be precise, here is Mister Obama's statement, from a Naturesurvey of his positions on science issues:

It is unlikely that we can meet our aggressive climate goals if we eliminate nuclear power as an option. However, before an expansion of nuclear power is considered, key issues must be addressed, including security of nuclear fuel and waste, waste storage and proliferation. The nuclear waste disposal efforts at Yucca Mountain [in Nevada] have been an expensive failure and should be abandoned. I will work with the industry and governors to develop a way to store nuclear waste safely while we pursue long-term solutions.

Any questions?


A

Subject: RE: BS: The Debates
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 28 Sep 08 - 03:30 PM

Palin wipes up with Biden on Thursday.

Does that mean the same as "wipes out Biden"? Sounds more like a commendable bit of cooperation across party lines in face of a dishwasher breakdown.

Subject: RE: BS: The Debates
From: Amos
Date: 28 Sep 08 - 03:38 PM

The innuendo is that she will be using him as a dishrag, so disparate will their effectiveness in debate be. I do agree that their ability levels will be shown to be highly disparate. But I think Rig's proposition indicates he is built upside down.


A

Subject: RE: BS: The Debates
From: Bill D
Date: 28 Sep 08 - 05:03 PM

Ms. Palin will be hard put to find a few lines she can plug into ANY answer and repeat over & over for 1 1/2 hours " -I would never 2nd guess - I would never 2nd guess - I would never 2nd guess".....but I'm sure she will repeat them with fervor and all the frantic conservatives will crow that she "wiped" whatever with Biden.

   Those voters who care to listen may have a different view of slogans offered in place of thought & facts.

Subject: RE: BS: The Debates
From: katlaughing
Date: 28 Sep 08 - 05:50 PM

A few choice quotes she may repeat:

"Don't be afraid of information and let kids debate both sides," she said.

"I would never presume to know God's will or to speak God's words,"

"Perhaps so. I mean, that is the agreement when you are a NATO ally, is if another country is attacked, you're going to be expected to be called..."

"There's a time for politics and a time for leadership, a time to campaign and a time to put our country first," she says nearly every time as well.

Subject: RE: BS: The Debates
From: Amos
Date: 28 Sep 08 - 06:11 PM

In a CBS News poll, uncommitted voters see Barack as the debate winner. When it comes to the economy, 66% say Barack would make the right decisions versus 42% for McCain.
The CNN poll results are also clear:
Who did the best job tonight?
Barack: 51
McCain: 38
Who would better handle Iraq?
Barack: 52
McCain: 47
Who would better handle the economy?
Barack: 58
McCain: 37

Subject: RE: BS: The Debates
From: Riginslinger
Date: 28 Sep 08 - 07:59 PM

"A few choice quotes she may repeat:"


            No, I think she'll probably mention how Biden thought FDR was in office in 1929, and how Roosevelt rushed around to get ready for the cameras so he would look good on television, but was then dismayed to discover it wouldn't be invented yet for another 20 some years.

            She'll probably also mention how the Obama campaign is threatening to sue the NRA for advertising on television.

            I think she has a wealth of commentary on hand. She won't have to simply respond to "gotha" questions from a shrew.

Subject: RE: BS: The Debates
From: Lonesome EJ
Date: 28 Sep 08 - 08:24 PM

Kudos to both candidates for expressing their views directly and clearly. To me, this was both men at the tops of their game. Thanks also to Jim Lehrer for allowing both men to respond directly to one another, thus maintaining a cogent flow in the argument. McCain didn't "eat Obama's lunch" any more than Obama ate McCain's. What came across was the different vision each man has for his country, and that discourse beats the hell out of the negative ads and sound bites that commonly dominate the limelight. Anyone who didn't see that debate missed one of the best political conversations we have had the privelege to witness.

Subject: RE: BS: The Debates
From: Donuel
Date: 28 Sep 08 - 08:29 PM

I think we would all prefer Palin debating Hillary, but face it, Hillary got too damn Rovian towardd the end of the primaries.

Ruthless bad advice and a loyalty to globalist corporate socialism spoiled the ticket for me.

Subject: RE: BS: The Debates
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 28 Sep 08 - 09:03 PM

"A few choice quotes she may repeat:"
I can see Russia from Alaska
I don't blink
I stopped the bridge to nowhere
I don't blink
Alaska supplies 30% of the country's energy. Or oil. Or moose. or something
I'll get back to yoiu on that.
Maverick.

Subject: RE: BS: The Debates
From: GUEST,heric
Date: 28 Sep 08 - 11:31 PM

>Justin, if you were to open your front door and enter the real world (the one that lies outside the USA) you would find that the world in general fears your nation in much the same way that it once feared Nazi Germany, back in the late 1930's...in the years leading up to WWII. Your behaviour and attitude toward other nations is quite similar. Your insistence on being "the greatest country on Earth" is also quite similar to Nazi Germany. You are living inside a bubble of paranoid and extremely dangerous political illusions. <

Funny you should say that, LH. I've been thinking lately that it would do you a world of good to get out and travel - especially to face your fears and travel in the U.S. You would have such a GREAT time and I feel certain you would feel much, much better.


-------------

I'm glad Amos explained that innuendo. I thought it was something, well, a bit risque for mudcat. Bipartisanship gone wild or something.

Subject: RE: BS: The Debates
From: GUEST,heric
Date: 29 Sep 08 - 12:52 AM

Some few years ago, I moved to a neighborhood I knew to be populated with several junior and mid-level Naval officers. I was concerned about the culture shock I anticipated to me and to my kids.

Not only did I earn to respect them, but (more importantily) I learned that I really like - like very much - most of them.

I understand that I was living in ignorance. My prejudices were based on theory instead of real world interaction and knowledge.

I lived almost half my life in Canada, and I understand that from exposure to American media, get the idead that that is one crazy assed mess of a crazy assed mass.

That was another prejudice born of ignorance and inadequate real world exposure.

I had to go through the same lesson as to Hispanic Americans, as I moved southward. So many lessons.

All I'm saying, in case it sounded abrasive above, is that you said you don't feel the need to travel. But consider, just consider, that you might learn something THAT YOU DO NOT NOW EXPECT TO LEARN if get that exposure.

I need to say it again: somthing that you DO NOT NOW EXPECT YOU WOULD LEARN.

You have undoubtedly noticed that you receive kind responses and warm welcomes on an American website as you lecture them about their Nazism and the Roman Empire-like atrocities. You probably have a good idea in mind as to why that would be so - but it is based on theory, isn't it?

When you read Time magazine and watch American TV you the idea you are looking in on them and at a haphazard mess. You might even know with some level of personal certainty that what you see is a bubble of paranoid and extremely dangerous political illusions.

What a bizarre idea - I'm not saying it is so, but - just try to imagine the possibility, that you might learn from down here that while you were looking down on it - you were in a goldfish bowl after all!

Stranger things have happened. To me.

Subject: RE: BS: The Debates
From: CarolC
Date: 29 Sep 08 - 01:06 AM

I'm sure I'll be corrected if I'm wrong, but I'm guessing it's based on ten years of living among some fairly jingoistic and intolerant people in rural upstate New York as an adolescent and teen.

Subject: RE: BS: The Debates
From: Amos
Date: 29 Sep 08 - 11:08 AM

"Obama was the only national leader or institution with a net positive rating on handling the Wall Street crisis in a USA TODAY/Gallup Poll taken Friday and Saturday — 46% approved, 43% disapproved. For McCain, the numbers were 37% approve, 58% disapprove. Democratic and GOP congressional leaders, Treasury Secretary Henry Paulson and President Bush also did poorly.

• Four national tracking polls Sunday showed Obama with leads of 5 to 8 percentage points over McCain. The Gallup version had the largest margin, 50%-42%. All four tracking polls are based on three-night averages, so Sunday's results were the first to include interviews after the debate.


Independent analyst Charlie Cook says "neither candidate hit a grand slam or made a serious mistake" in the debate, but Obama was in position to benefit more because he was "the greater unknown factor. To the extent that the debate simply exposed him more and allowed more people to feel more comfortable with him and the idea of him as a president, it may have helped him … in less direct ways than simply widening his lead."

Saturday's USA TODAY poll had a margin of error of +/—4 percentage points for the 701 people who said they had watched or listened to the debate. The results suggest McCain did not lose or gain ground: 21% said the debate gave them a more favorable view of him, 21% said less favorable and 56% said it didn't change their opinion much."

Subject: RE: BS: The Debates
From: irishenglish
Date: 29 Sep 08 - 01:35 PM

For me, there was a moment in the debate that was a microcosm of the entire evening, showing how, I feel, Obama held his own in responding to anything McCain hit him with. It was when McCain, slightly smugly mentioned the bracelet that he wears, trying to paint Obama as insensitive to veterans. The fact that Obama then matter of factly said-John, I wear a bracelet too....was for me the way the entire debate was. I think Obama has definite work to do-he landed some punches, but he didn't get the knockout. McCain on the other hand went for the knockout, but instead was landing a lot of soft jabs.

If all the Republicans think they have to attack Biden with in terms of a "soundbite" is the FDR/television quote, I think that will not work to their benefit. Biden could either ignore it, or make a self deprecating joke about his own gaffe pre-emptively. That would settle it.

Subject: RE: BS: The Debates
From: Riginslinger
Date: 29 Sep 08 - 01:39 PM

If Palin is smart, she'll mention the Scott Ritter thing.

Subject: RE: BS: The Debates
From: Amos
Date: 29 Sep 08 - 02:01 PM

She'll probably also mention how the Obama campaign is threatening to sue the NRA for advertising on television.


I think if you investigate the true story you will find that you have once again distorted the ground truth to suit your personal bias. The Obama campaign is defending against false reports. Surely, you prefer true reportage to false? Or do you not?


A

Subject: RE: BS: The Debates
From: Riginslinger
Date: 29 Sep 08 - 02:22 PM

Amos - This is an American election. Truth doesn't exist, not with Obama or anywhere else. It's a "read-betwee-the-lines" exercise that every American voter must learn.

Subject: RE: BS: The Debates
From: Amos
Date: 29 Sep 08 - 02:40 PM

SO, just so I understand your position, and know how to act, are you, like Pontius Pilate, washing your hads of any commitment to say things as nearly to how they actually are as you can, and claiming full license to alter, distort, change facts, or otherwise slant data in your writings "because this is an election"?

Is it your understanding,then, that this is how the democratic process is designed to work? Oh--and does it square with your personal sense of ethics?


A

Subject: RE: BS: The Debates
From: Lonesome EJ
Date: 29 Sep 08 - 02:47 PM

Frank, is your Hilary vote going to McCain?

Subject: RE: BS: The Debates
From: Riginslinger
Date: 29 Sep 08 - 02:50 PM

Nothing about it squares with my personal sense of ethics. You've got two crooks running for office. Either one of them will do anything that comes to mind for the purpose of getting elected.

                   We saw what happened to Jimmy Carter, out last honest president.

Subject: RE: BS: The Debates
From: Lonesome EJ
Date: 29 Sep 08 - 03:45 PM

He's not a black guy, Justin. He's a guy with intelligence, which may be what is actually bothering you about him.

Subject: RE: BS: The Debates
From: Riginslinger
Date: 29 Sep 08 - 04:32 PM

Remember Fuzzy Zoeller?

Subject: RE: BS: The Debates
From: Lonesome EJ
Date: 29 Sep 08 - 04:52 PM

Yeah. Fuzz was at least funny part of the time.

Subject: RE: BS: The Debates
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 29 Sep 08 - 04:57 PM

"I think George Bush is an excellent president."

I rather doubt if George himself would actually agree with Justin there. I suspect he wakes up at night and wishes he'd never put his name forward for the job in the first place.

Subject: RE: BS: The Debates
From: irishenglish
Date: 29 Sep 08 - 05:13 PM

If I walk down a road and see a fat girl sitting in a park and I say, "oh there is a fat girl" Am I being discriminatory or simply making an observation?

How about just saying, there's a girl.

How's about I say regarding you-there's a dumbass.

Subject: RE: BS: The Debates
From: GUEST,Jack the Sailor
Date: 29 Sep 08 - 05:15 PM

Because of the anti racism policy, I request that the Justin Urquart post be deleted.

He is obviously race baiting.

---

If you have a complaint about a specific message, please contact me by personal message or e-mail and tell me the name of the thread, the name of the poster, and the date an time of the message - and tell me why you object to the post. I have not read this thread entirely and don't intend to, but what I've seen is what I would classify as opinion, not racism. If you think otherwise, give me specifics - privately. To me, it looks like just a bunch of little boys squabbling. And I think it's time for zll of you to stop your name-calling.
-Joe Offer-
[e-mail]

Subject: RE: BS: The Debates
From: Bobert
Date: 29 Sep 08 - 05:30 PM

I'll second that motion...

Subject: RE: BS: The Debates
From: GUEST,Justin Urquart
Date: 29 Sep 08 - 05:31 PM

Listen, some of you are living on another planet. No real point in attempting a civil debate. Let's allow the Witch of November to answer you.

Subject: RE: BS: The Debates
From: Bobert
Date: 29 Sep 08 - 05:44 PM

The problem, Justin, is that you are not debating in a civil manner... You make racist statements... That is not civil...

But worse, you are so racist that you don't even see yourself for what you are... That is sad...

Maybe you just need to reinvent yourself and come back as a less racist GUEST... There are plenty of Repubs here who might agree with you on some things and even some Dems and Greens who will engage in a civil debate with you but debating overt racists is a waste of time...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: The Debates
From: Joe Offer
Date: 29 Sep 08 - 05:46 PM

OK, just stop it - Richard, Bobert, Jack, Justin - all of you.
This thread is supposed to be about the debates.
Thank you.
-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: BS: The Debates
From: Big Mick
Date: 29 Sep 08 - 05:47 PM

I can't believe you are all falling for the same old crap from one of our age old trolls. "Urquhart" gives no facts, spouts slogans, calls you names, lays out lines about cotton and calling Obama boy, and you all suck in to it. There is no debate here, just trolling. As long as you feed him, he will keep it up. Ignore this person.

Bill, you are correct that there is no apostrophe in Obama's name, but he is definitely of Irish blood through his grandmother. I love thge O'bama stuff.

Can't wait until Thursday.

Mick

Subject: RE: BS: The Debates
From: GUEST,Justin Urquart
Date: 29 Sep 08 - 05:56 PM

Mick, please note my surname is spelt Urquart, not "Urquhart" thank you. Also why refer to someone as a "Troll" just because their view is different ?

Yes I also found that O'bama thing very funny. I don't think he has ever visited Ireland. Well you never know, he could go after the Irish-American vote on that one !

Other Plastic Paddies have be known to do worse !

Subject: RE: BS: The Debates
From: Bill D
Date: 29 Sep 08 - 06:55 PM

Ok..I got it..like Irish chairs which stay out all Winter...Paddy O'Furniture



Justin said: "Yes I support the republican party, and proud to say I do. I think George Bush is an excellent president."
Seems the polls are not finding too many who agree with you lately...lowest ratings for almost any president. McCain is a 'proud republican' too...to the point that he, like you, is saying almost anything in speeches & debates to appeal to emotional and special interest groups in hopes of short-circuiting reasoned analysis among swing voters and retaining as many "ditto-heads" as possible. If you can't find good arguments, make oblique references to irrelevant issues couched in derogatory terms.

Subject: RE: BS: The Debates
From: Bobert
Date: 29 Sep 08 - 07:52 PM

Now wait just a danged minute here, Joe....

Don't lump me in with the ilks of Justin... This isn't a squabble or difference of opinion that is going on here... It is over-the-top racism on Justin's part and if ya'll gonna let him spout off like the Grand Wizzard of the KKK then, hey, I for one am gonna call him on it...

I haven't been disrespectfull toward Justin but I have called his posts for what they are and that is racist...

No squabble, just fact...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: The Debates
From: Joe Offer
Date: 29 Sep 08 - 10:01 PM

As I've said time and time again, if you think a post is objectionable, don't advertise it by making a big stink about it in a thread. Send me a personal message or e-mail with specific information (name of thread, name of poster, date and time of message, and what's wrong with it), and I'll take care of it. If you can see that I'm not around, contact one of the volunteers - most of you "regulars" know at least some of them. Somebody finally contacted me and gave me specific information, and I deleted the gratuitous reference to a black man as "boy."
But if you scream and shout and jump up and down in response to a troll, you're doing just what the troll wants you to do. Justin is probably gleefully masturbating right now, because he was able to manipulate so many of you.

This thread is closed. If you want to start a members-only discusion of last week's Obama-McCain debate, go ahead.
-Joe Offer-