BS: The Irish Peace Process

Subject: BS: The Irish Peace Process
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 08 Dec 08 - 11:34 AM

David El Gnomo started this thread back in May 07.
thread.cfm?threadid=101488&messages=124

We returned to it occasionally to discuss the progress.
It was sabotaged by a swarm of "Guests", possibly one single person, who did not support the peace process and did not want it discussed here.
He/they succeeded in getting the thread closed, achieving that aim.

I offer this as an alternative, and request that it be members only.

---

This thread is open to established members only. Guest posts and posts from new members will not be accepted.
-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: BS: The Irish Peace Process
From: Skivee
Date: 08 Dec 08 - 03:51 PM

Are things progressing well? I haven't heard much about the state of affairs lately. I hope that this means that the various parties are finding common ground.

Subject: RE: BS: The Irish Peace Process
From: goatfell
Date: 09 Dec 08 - 04:59 AM

I don't think that you'll get real peace in Northern Ireland, because of some of the people that live there, because when you drive through the towns they either flying the british flag or the Irish tricolour, and you also have people who this site who support the loyist/republican terrorists with their comments, and no matter you say they will say that you're wrong because they don't want to hear the truth.

until they stop this nonsense and start living like everyone else instead of thrying to say that their side is better than yours you will never find peace.

Subject: RE: BS: The Irish Peace Process
From: Sleepy Rosie
Date: 09 Dec 08 - 06:28 AM

Lol! I don't know where the notion that everyone else is living peacefully comes from. Because 'stopping this nonsense' is pretty much what 'everyone else' needs to be doing too isn't it? I must admit to avoiding world news, pretty much because there's always some nonsense going on everywhere you look. And most of the nonsense going on, has been going on for years and years.

I mean, if people aren't causing mass havock by invading other countries, then people are experiencing mass disruption by getting invaded. And if people aren't either causing havock by invading other people, or in their turn getting invaded, then they're living with the on-going disturbances of having been invaded... So much nonsense going on with everyone, quite hard to see who's not being silly in the world, or when it's ever been sensible!

Seriously, possibly the most impartial option for Ireland, is to have an Ireland that is cleanly separate from the UK. It makes sense now that the UK is gradually (and I suspect inevitably) being dismantled. Ireland would be comprised of two distinct but closely co-operating countries of Ulster and Eire. If the day comes where democratically the majority in Ulster desire to re-unite with the South, there will no-doubt still be ruptions. But I suspect it will eventually come and hopefully with time, the various factions will co-operate in the process.

Subject: RE: BS: The Irish Peace Process
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 09 Dec 08 - 06:53 AM

Precis of the next three hundred posts:-

Keith and assorted alter egos: the republicans are up to no good
Teribus: I agree
Everyone else: the unionists aren't up to any good either!
10th generation Irish Yank: Erin Go Bragh! Need any loose change for gunpowder...?

Subject: RE: BS: The Irish Peace Process
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 09 Dec 08 - 07:49 AM

Unfair Goatfell. Last week a Queen's University report found that peole in the North are now less inclined to see themselves as being divided on sectarian lines.
The degree is small, but it is progress.

Subject: RE: BS: The Irish Peace Process
From: goatfell
Date: 09 Dec 08 - 09:02 AM

have you been to Northern Ireland where there are lots of places the fly the the british flag or the irish tricolour, and if this is not intimating(spelling) I don't what is.

there is place in Northern Ireland called FREE DERRY where for a time anyone who was British/prostestant was not welcome and it is still there.

Flying the Red hand/British flag or Irish tricolour is trying to tell the other side that they are not welcome, and then they talk about peace, there will never be any peace until both sides sit down and decied what to do about the genartions to come, but they haven't.

it's illegl to fly any flags that is provoking to the other side.

it might be working is somer place but not all, but as you say it is progress small I agree. But the is still have people in Northern Ireland that support the terrorist groups on both sides so is that progress, keeping alive the old divisions I don't.

there are areas of towns and cities in Northern Ireland where it is still protesant/Catholic and anyone from the other side is treated with sussption.
so is that progress?

Subject: RE: BS: The Irish Peace Process
From: goatfell
Date: 09 Dec 08 - 09:17 AM

I forgot the mention that I'm a member of a organison that helps to promtoe the history.cultre and the music of Ulster and Scotland, where we don't really care if you protestant or catholic and if there is any sectrarians then we kick them out.

I just can't stand loylist/republican orgabsitons at all.

or their supporters.

I can accept people fro what they are, I hate any stupid bigoted opinion.

but I do believe in free speech and thought, you don't need to agree with it but they have the right to do what they want.

Subject: RE: BS: The Irish Peace Process
From: Lox
Date: 09 Dec 08 - 09:41 AM

Hey,

I've been looking forward to saying this in a discussion of this nature ...

... A black man is president of the United States!!

Remember when that was synonymous with "the moon turnign blue" or "ian Paisley and Martin McGuinness shaking hands"

I'm waiting for the moon to turn blue.

But in the meantime, change happens slowly all around us all the time, and one day all those litle pieces stack up to make enough difference for something unheard of to happen.

The glass isn't completely full yet ... but its just a little more than half full at last.

Lets not smash it in our impatience to drink it eh ...

... Good things come to those who wait ... (Yes - mines a guinness thanks)

Subject: RE: BS: The Irish Peace Process
From: Lox
Date: 09 Dec 08 - 09:42 AM

Or should I say - good things come to those who persevere ...

Subject: RE: BS: The Irish Peace Process
From: goatfell
Date: 09 Dec 08 - 11:28 AM

I would like to see peace in Northern Ireland, and at lest the have taken the right small steps, well some of them anyway, not all.

Subject: RE: BS: The Irish Peace Process
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 10 Dec 08 - 04:10 AM

The Peace Process will not be concuded any time soon Andy.
The thread can be revisited like its predecessor.
If you want to contribute, please consider membership.
You would clearly prefer that the peace process were not discussed here.
You will not get your way this time.

Subject: RE: BS: The Irish Peace Process
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 10 Dec 08 - 08:12 AM

Anti peace process loyalist Michael Stone was locked up again this week.
Previously given 600years imprisonment, he had been released under Good Friday agreement.
He once appeared on TV with Desmond Tutu to face the family of one of his victims.
That encounter is descrbed here.
http://www.religion-online.org/showarticle.asp?title=3412

Subject: RE: BS: The Irish Peace Process
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 10 Dec 08 - 11:38 AM

I don't think we will get loads of '10th generation etc.', Al. It didn't happen on the other thread. The lads in New York and Chicago don't seem too interested anymore. Not sure why. They could, of course, still have a go at uniting Ireland but unless someone convinces the administration in Dublin to take on the six counties, with all their problems, I don't think that will happen. Maybe the bhoyos could raise funds for an organisation to terrorise the citizens of Eire until they take Ulster back:-)

Like I said in the other thread - where do we go from here? The peace process has started. Political violence seems to have stopped. But no-one seems to have a coherent guide as to how to get it any further. I was hoping that our contributors from the north of Ireland would be able to enlighten us as to how they feel and what the mood in the province is but we have had no real answer as yet.

And Joe - Thanks again. This time for making this thread members only and, hopefuly, stopping the trolling anmd sniping that went on elsewhere.

Cheers

DeG

Subject: RE: BS: The Irish Peace Process
From: Paul Burke
Date: 11 Dec 08 - 03:32 AM

We'll know the peace process has truly taken when they sell kids little orange plastic bowlers with shamrocks on them on the 12th of July, and when the Lambeg drums start coming into the sessions... no, wish I hadn't said that.

Subject: RE: BS: The Irish Peace Process
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 11 Dec 08 - 07:44 AM

Good to see the "hard hitters" from Ireland are ignoring this thread.

Why is that Elinor? Like I said, I started the original thread in the hope that people from Ireland would give us their take on the peace process and what is realy happening there. I would dearly welcome input from anyone there - hard hitters or otherwise!

Cheers

DeG

Subject: RE: BS: The Irish Peace Process
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 11 Dec 08 - 07:49 AM

First post members are excluded too.
Just ignore them.

Subject: RE: BS: The Irish Peace Process
From: goatfell
Date: 11 Dec 08 - 09:11 AM

Or don't support the Republican view/ loyalist view either.

free speech and all that

Subject: RE: BS: The Irish Peace Process
From: goatfell
Date: 11 Dec 08 - 09:15 AM

because most of the ones no all but some support the republican terrorists, these 'mudcatters' from Ireland, they say that they don't but why go on about the republicna terrorists/loyalist terrorists if they don't, I just can't stand form of terrorism not matter what, because these 'people'just make me mad, but then I am.

Subject: RE: BS: The Irish Peace Process
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 11 Dec 08 - 10:14 AM

Comrac said that he felt Eirigi to be "the only voice of Republicanism in Ireland today."
He said they were "democratic", but being a Marxist organisation their ideas of democracy differ from most of ours.
I read on their web site, "éirígí believes that electoral and parliamentary politics alone cannot deliver the type of change required in Irish society. "
So people can not be trusted to vote for what is good for them?

Marxism survives in North Korea and Zimbabwe. Perhaps in Ireland it would be more successful than in all the previous countries that have tried it, or is that a triumph of hope over experience?

Subject: RE: BS: The Irish Peace Process
From: Stu
Date: 11 Dec 08 - 10:25 AM

You're confusing Marxism with totalitarian regimes; they might say they're Marxist but they're not as Marxism isn't inherently oppressive. Have you tried Wikipedia?

Subject: RE: BS: The Irish Peace Process
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 11 Dec 08 - 04:20 PM

May i raise a voice in protest at the removal of Elinor's post? I had a fan. I had always wanted a fan. And now my hopes are dashed.

Subject: RE: BS: The Irish Peace Process
From: Goose Gander
Date: 11 Dec 08 - 05:06 PM

"You're confusing Marxism with totalitarian regimes; they might say they're Marxist but they're not as Marxism isn't inherently oppressive."

So it's just another unfortunate coincidence? Oh my, so many unfortunate coincidences . . . .

Subject: RE: BS: The Irish Peace Process
From: Stu
Date: 12 Dec 08 - 07:09 AM

"So it's just another unfortunate coincidence?"

. . .and your point is? Not all totalitarian regimes are Marxist and in fact any state that is totalitarian is, by definition not Marxist.

No one knows whether a Marxist (or for that matter a Communist) state would work, because one practising the teachings of Marx and Engels without deviation and a large degree of oppression has never existed.

Subject: RE: BS: The Irish Peace Process
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 12 Dec 08 - 09:41 AM

A large Orange hall in Belfast no longer needs protection from attack.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/northern_ireland/7776252.stm

Subject: RE: BS: The Irish Peace Process
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 12 Dec 08 - 12:18 PM

I am pleased to hear, through a Guest with a very silly name, that GAA halls also do not need protecting these days.

Subject: RE: BS: The Irish Peace Process
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 12 Dec 08 - 12:41 PM

Link fo GAA hall story.

http://www.sinnfeinassembly.com/gd/press-centre/entry/3964.

Subject: RE: BS: The Irish Peace Process
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 07 Jan 09 - 09:14 AM

Jonathan Evans , head of MI5, has spoken about the current situation.
He said "There has been no decrease in terrorist activities despite the IRA ceasefire and the restoration of devolved government"
"...the last nine months there has been a real upswing in terrorist planning and attempted attacks by dissident Republican groups."
"There has been a determined series of attempts to kill a police officer in Northern Ireland."

Subject: RE: BS: The Irish Peace Process
From: Big Mick
Date: 07 Jan 09 - 10:57 AM

To the "GUEST" who continues to post using several names. This is not allowed. If you want to discuss the Irish Peace Process, do so using a consistent name/identity. Also, you may feel free to vigorously debate your positions. You may not use personal attack to do so. Keith (whom I disagree with mightily on these issues) posted a quote from the head of MI5 (whose activities in the North of Ireland I detest) with regard to the Peace Process. Your response was to point out that Keith had been chastised by my Co- Forum Moderator for using several identities. Aside from the fact that this has nothing to do with the debate, you are guilty of the same thing. So now you are being chastised. This is not allowed, "and you damn well know it".

Get on with a decent discussion, a passionate discussion. There is plenty to refute in the assertions of the apologists for Great Britain's policies in the North of Ireland, just as I am sure they feel there is on the Republican side. But if the thread continues to devolve into nothing but personal attacks, it will be closed.

Mick Lane
Forum Moderator

NO MORE COMMENTS ABOUT THE CONTRIBUTORS TO THE THREAD WILL BE ALLOWED. PLEASE CONFINE YOUR COMMENTS TO THE TOPIC OF THE THREAD. LAST WARNING BEFORE THE THREAD IS CLOSED. Muderator

Subject: RE: BS: The Irish Peace Process
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 08 Jan 09 - 03:09 AM

Mick,
Do we "disagree mightily" ?

1. We both long for the North to leave the UK and unite with the Republic.
2. We both hate violence.
3. We both welcome the political progress already achieved.

Our difference as I see it is

1. I do not think such a radical change in administration should be imposed upon
the people of the North until a majority of them, 51%, actually want it.
2. I do not believe that a campaign of violence could hasten that day.
3. I believe that the violence set the clock back on progress by decades.

Subject: RE: BS: The Irish Peace Process
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 09 Jan 09 - 02:31 AM

Loyalist weapons are still a big issue. and this week there has been disagreement between police and Shaun Woodward.

Loyalist paramilitaries should not be given another year to decommission their weapons, the Police Federation has said.

Secretary of State Shaun Woodward has said he wanted to extend the NI Arms Decommissioning Act to 2010.

The Federation said it wanted MPs and Peers to resist the request and that loyalist paramilitaries had no intention of giving up their weapons.
.....................................................................
Yesterday, a post of mine and two from another member were deleted.
They were not personal attacks.
PM for a copy of my post.

Subject: RE: BS: The Irish Peace Process
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 23 Jan 09 - 01:40 PM

The Consultative Group On The Past is to recommend that the government pays £12000 compensation to the families of every victim of the troubles.
They say that all should be treated equally be they child, passer by, soldier or paramilitary.
It would mean for instance that the UVF men killed by the bomb they were planting, will be treated the same as the innocent members of the Miami Show Band that they killed.
Nationalist politicians are generally in favour, Unionists against.

It does not seem right to me, but I am an outsider.

Subject: RE: BS: The Irish Peace Process
From: Nickhere
Date: 23 Jan 09 - 01:59 PM

What exists at present in the North is far better than what went before. If we can all maintain it another generation or so, the old resentments might die out. I used to be totally in favour of a 32 county republic, but these days I think the political form of society is less important than the justice and equality of that society. I still favour a republic to a monarchy, but a good monarchy would be better than a rotten republic, especially if the democratic process has become a sham.

There is still an outstanding issue of a handful of dissident republicans and loyalists who haven't disarmed, this needs to be sorted out asap, but as long as the guns are silent in the meantime, that's something worth celebrating. I think it proves the 'boring' political way is ultimately the only long-term way.

Subject: RE: BS: The Irish Peace Process
From: goatfell
Date: 24 Jan 09 - 06:50 AM

aye tell that to the republican,loylist supprters on the mudcat cafe because I've being telling them that and they tell me that I'm speaking rubbish.

Subject: RE: BS: The Irish Peace Process
From: Stringsinger
Date: 24 Jan 09 - 01:55 PM

Both sides are culpable. The "proddies" and the Catholics have been going at this for years.
Saying that it's the fault of one side only is complete and utter denial.

Divesting Ireland from the UK may be a band-aid on a serious wound. The real issue is
religious ideological differences which must be addressed and mollified. The model is currently at work in the Mid-east for these differences.

The problem with a Marxist solution is that it offers an extrinsic or outside solution to
an internal problem. It doesn't deal with the religious ideological differences. Marxism as applied is a "religious" approach to the problem in itself whether a god is mentioned or not.
Marx was principally an economist and not necessarily the final word on how a government should be run. Stalin certainly abused Marx and his theories for totalitarian purposes.

I believe as in the Mid-East, outside arbitration by a credible world body accepted by the world community is the only answer.

Apparently George Mitchell has had some influence in the "peace process". My hope is that Obama will work toward goals of harmony in these conflict-ridden parts of the world. Before that, though, Iraq and Afghanistan problems need to be resolved.

Subject: RE: BS: The Irish Peace Process
From: bubblyrat
Date: 25 Jan 09 - 12:03 PM

My hope is that Obama will address the problems assailing his own nation,and try to stop getting involved in any other country's business, thankyou very much !!

Subject: RE: BS: The Irish Peace Process
From: Nickhere
Date: 25 Jan 09 - 06:14 PM

Stringsinger, good post. But I think that to see the Troubles (as we call them here) in Northern Ireland as springing from religious differences is a serious mistake. But i can understand why people might think that.

Religion was simply a badge of convenience for identifying the 'ethnicity' and politics of the 'wearer'. Being a catholic meant you were probably nationalist and / or republican, being a prod probably meant the opposite. The same thing applied to names: being called Liam wouldn't go down well in loyalist pubs and might get the owner a hiding. Being called Billy or Sammy wouldn't go down well in Republican circles. And yet the notorious leader of the loyalist Shankill Butchers (so-called as they literally butchered their mainly catholic victims) was called Lenny Murphy. Murphy would generally be considered a "Fenian' name in the North (fenian = pro united Ireland / independence from UK). Some analysts claim Murphy - a prod loyalist - had a complex about his name which drove some of his viciousness.

The conflict in the north was based on apartheid and discrimination -subtle or non-subtle. It came from police harassment of catholics on the assumption that politically they were anti-union. Often such sectarian assumptions became a self-fulfilling prophecy. Catholics, roughed up by the police on suspicion of being anti-union, no doubt subsequently felt their sympathies lean towards the republican cause whereas they may have been apolitical before.

Catholics generally didn't join the police in the north because - they were not welcome; they would have been subject to bullying by their colleagues; they would have been shunned by their own community. I could list dozens of ways catholics were discriminated against as prods wished to build a monolithic prod state. But once again, religion was simply a denoter of allegiance, politics, social and economic status.

None of the killings took place, unlike the 16th cent - because people had studied their bibles carefully and mowed each other down over doctrinal differences.

The idea that religion was behind it was driven in part by UK officialdom and the tabloids as it was a convenient shorthand but mainly because it deflected attention from the real issues - inequality and injustice, UK political expediency and so on. It absolved the UK leadership from any responsibility and allowed them to cast themselves as the 'honest brokers' trying to keep the peace rather than as the opportunistic politicians they were manipulating both sides to their advantage, and indeed, being a cause of the problem.

That might be just another reason why the peace process has to work. It may yet prove to be a model for other regions of the world if it is successful. In those areas, it is my firm belief that once social justice issues are dealt with, the religious veneer of many of these conflicts will evaporate like morning dew (I doth surprise myself, waxing poetical!!)

Subject: RE: BS: The Irish Peace Process
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 25 Jan 09 - 07:28 PM

Back before Christmas I see Sleepy Rosie said "If the day comes where democratically the majority in Ulster desire to re-unite with the South, there will no-doubt still be ruptions. But I suspect it will eventually come and hopefully with time..."

That day is probably already here and has been for years - but of course Northern Ireland is only part of Ulster, and Ulster as such doesn't have a say in this.

In time I am sure that the two parts of Ireland will be linked in some kind of federal or confederal arrangement, within the European Union, alongside the rest of the British Isles. Whether there'll still be any kind of United Kingdom in another generation or so is another matter. But I hope that the days of fighting about these kind of things is over and done with.

Subject: RE: BS: The Irish Peace Process
From: An Buachaill Caol Dubh
Date: 26 Jan 09 - 05:55 AM

Although it's some forty years since it was written, one of the best short analyses of the situation in the North of Ireland in the previous century is in Bernadette Devlin's "The Price of my Soul" (it was Nickhere's penultimate paragraph that reminded me of it). For what it's worth, in one village in Donegal - one of the Counties of Ulster, though in the Republic - there are Orange parades on or around the Twelfth of July, and the whole community turns out either to participate or applaud; the place is Rosapenna. Mind you, back in the 1960s, Taoiseach Jack Lynch said that in a United Ireland all traditions would be respected equally; call these what you will, Nationalist, Loyalist, Republican, Unionist, Orange, Green, Catholic, Protestant, Free Stater, Fenian, Peep o'Day, Whiteboys (we're getting really historical now). On a lighter note, there's an RTE programme called "Failte Isteach", and a couple of years ago the presenter pointed out that, throughout Europe, all borders are gone; he then played a recording of Dominic Behan's "Thank God we're surrounded by Water". As his brother Brendan once misquoted it,

"The Sea, the Sea, a gradh geal mo chroidhe,
Long may you roll between England and me;
God help the poor Scotchmen - they'll never be free,
But we're entirely surrounded by water."

Subject: RE: BS: The Irish Peace Process
From: Stringsinger
Date: 26 Jan 09 - 02:35 PM

Nickhere, I must respectfully disagree and use a joke as a parable.

A prisoner was taken by the IRA. After being interrogated he exclaimed, "I'm an atheist!"
The IRA interrogator asked without missing a beat,
"Yes but are you a Catholic or Protestant atheist?"

That to me says it all.

I take your point about inequality and injustice. But this is so often fueled by religious beliefs. Religion is the banner that mobilizes "ignorant armies that clash by night".

Frank

Subject: RE: BS: The Irish Peace Process
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 26 Jan 09 - 08:00 PM

That to me says it all.

But what does it say? Surely it underlines the very point Nick was making, that this hasn't been primarily about religious beliefs, but about where people's political and national loyalties lie.

Sometimes these kind of divisions do largely coincide with religious differences, as in Ireland and in the former Yugoslavia, but in other places this doesn't enter into it - as in Spain and the Basque country, or in Ruanda or Darfur. The presence (or absence) of religious differences doesn't seem to make such conflicts either more bloody or less bloody.

Subject: RE: BS: The Irish Peace Process
From: bubblyrat
Date: 27 Jan 09 - 08:22 PM

I have spent much of my adult life wondering what the HELL the situation in Northern Ireland was /is all about in the first place !Yes, I agree that mistakes were made, Cromwell and all that, and yes, the people of Ireland have,indeed,suffered grievously at the hands of , OK, the English ( and the Romans, and others), but what makes a nation, any nation,turn on ITSELF ??How, in the name of GOD,can any conflict in Ireland be resolved by killing,with bombs,women and children in English shopping malls ? By blowing up unarmed military musicians and their horses ??By putting bombs in English bars,designed to indiscriminately MURDER teenage girls and boys ?? To put a bomb under the car of, and kill, a man, an English MP and war-hero, (Airey Neave) who so bravely had escaped from Colditz Castle in WW2 Nazi Germany, surely the most oppressive and vile regime of recent times ??You even murdered Lord Mountbatten,without whose help you would all be speaking German today !!
      And for what ?? Religion ?? King Billy?? The Bold Fenian Men ??The Orange ??The Green ?? Hatred?? Bloodlust?? And I 'll bet some of you, even now,condemn the situation in Palestine / Israel !! But are YOU any different?? I hope to God that you are, at last ,or there's no hope.

Subject: RE: BS: The Irish Peace Process
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 27 Jan 09 - 09:52 PM

" But are YOU any different?? I hope to God that you are," Surely you've got it the wrong way round there.

The thing to hope is that in the end it'll turn out that the people in Palestine/Israel aren't that different from the people in Nrthern Ireland, and that they too can find their way to a settlement in which they also can live together without fighting.

Subject: RE: BS: The Irish Peace Process
From: Stringsinger
Date: 28 Jan 09 - 03:01 PM

So Catholic and Protestant religious beliefs have now entered the category of politics?
No Catholic or Protestant religious beliefs have anything to do with the division?

I don't get it.

The fact is unless these religious constructs are taken off the table as a defining cultural identity, the "troubles" will continue. This stuff goes way back since the Elizabethan era and Henry the VIII.

Stsngr

Subject: RE: BS: The Irish Peace Process
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 29 Jan 09 - 03:25 AM

The two communities are always labelled Nationalist and Unionist now.
That also has its limitations, but they do need a one word descriptor. What would you call them?

Subject: RE: BS: The Irish Peace Process
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 29 Jan 09 - 05:31 AM

caballeros y senoritas!

Subject: RE: BS: The Irish Peace Process
From: Big Mick
Date: 29 Jan 09 - 08:43 AM

bubblyrat, to my knowledge, the Irish never suffered at the hands of the Romans. More like the English and the Norsemen. In both of these cases they ultimately became absorbed into the Irish population.

Frank, the simple facts of the "troubles" is that at their root, they are economic. The "orange card" has been played in Ireland in a very similar way to how the "race card" is played here in the States. In the late 19th and early 20th century it had to do with the shipyards and railroads in the North. There was a time where the workers, Protestant and Catholic, found they had more in common as workers than differences. The industrialists couldn't have that. Out comes King Billy, parades, discrimination and patronage, ..... boom ..... profits preserved for the wealthy. A bit of an oversimplification, but makes the point. As in most great conflicts of the spirit, usually blamed on one thing or the other, this one is rooted in capitalism, greed, and money.

All the best,

Mick

Subject: RE: BS: The Irish Peace Process
From: Nickhere
Date: 29 Jan 09 - 11:45 AM

Big Mick's correct on that score, bubblyrat. I think it was around 1930 (or perhaps that very year) when both Catholic and Protestant workers went on strike together over the conditions they were expected to work for under the fat cat bosses (mainly protestant). It was a short-lived strike, as the capitalists, alarmed at the unusual show of solidarity, were quick to forment sectarian division. The usual way to do this was to slightly favour one side (prod) with slightly better conditions and then tell them to 'watch their backs' of those scummy Papists (Catholic) will have the shirt off yer"

In that way they drove the communities apart by giving one lot reason to be fearful over their privilege' (scraps from the master's table) while giving the other lot reason to be envious and resentful. Not much has changed these days, I think, in or out of the North. It takes an alert mind to spot it and resist it.

There were historic divisions of course, the ancestors of today's unionists arrived as protestant and presbyterian colonists from Scotland and England to supplant the native catholic who were regarded as 'disloyal'. That happened from the time of Henry VIII onwards. This was an injustice of course, but it must be borne in mind that some of the Catholic native chieftans were not very just either and occasionally acted as little tin-pot autocrats. A major difference was that under the Gaelic legal system the chieftan was leader for life but, while he and his family had use of the lands while he was alive, his family could not inherit it. This did not suit the Anglo-Norman system of primogeniture where the first son inherited all, 'making legal bastards of the rest of the family' as Thomas Paine put it. This way suited the Normans as it ensured the feudal system of loyalty survived through the generations. On the other hand the Irish chieftans had no legal right under Gaelic law to surrender their lands to the English Crown as they were not theirs to dispose of in that manner. In any case, in the late 19th century the Irish were able to buy back most of the land they had been dispossessed of, under a series of land reform acts. In some cases, the payments were still being made to the English Crown in the 1960s.

For what it's worth, Ireland has the 'distinction' of being the first country to be colonised by another European power in the so-called Age of Discovery, that time in the 1500s when European countries began to send ships across the Atlantic and around the world etc., We went through the whole cycle of conquest, dispossession, genocide (yes, genocide) etc., to finally wind up in the 1990s and 21st century talking round the table. So, McGrath of Harlow has a good point, Israel and Palestine can learn from our example, they'll probably end up at the same point eventually anyway.

Subject: RE: BS: The Irish Peace Process
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 06 Mar 09 - 03:09 AM

Army units are being deployed again in NI.
The reason (excuse?) given is to combat rising levels of activity from dissident Republican groups.
Concern has been expressed by SDLP that the deployment has not been done through democratic process.
Sinn Fein has been silent so far.

Subject: RE: BS: The Irish Peace Process
From: ard mhacha
Date: 06 Mar 09 - 06:03 AM

Bubblyrat, Ireland suffered at the hands of the Romans?, are you sure you are not confusing the many Italian soccer teams that hammered our local `stiffs`in various European encounters, my God now the poor oul Romans have been thrown into the fray.

Subject: RE: BS: The Irish Peace Process
From: Stringsinger
Date: 06 Mar 09 - 03:48 PM

Hi Mick. Wish I could buy that. Economic differences could be settled a lot easier than
tribal lines based on "faith".

It would be in the best economic interests of Ireland to solve this dispute but that doesn't seem to be governing the decision making processes of either side.

Tribalism is an age-old problem. It goes deeper than economic principles. It is usually buried in traditions. In the Mid-east, Semitic peoples are similar and yet choose to fight.
It's the same thing in North and South Ireland. The people look alike, have a similar gene pool (like those in the Mid-east) and yet they have to find something to disagree about to maintain their tribal identity. Religion is a good excuse. "Papists" "Proddies"....you know the drill.

Stringsinger

Subject: RE: BS: The Irish Peace Process
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 06 Mar 09 - 05:00 PM

McGuinness criticises Ulster police chief for recalling covert army units:

Martin McGuinness said today (May 6th) his confidence in Sir Hugh Orde had been shaken by the Northern Ireland chief constable's decision to call in a military special forces unit.

The deputy first minister and key Sinn Féin negotiator said the presence of the undercover army regiment in Northern Ireland posed a "major threat".

Subject: RE: BS: The Irish Peace Process
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 08 Mar 09 - 04:58 AM

referring to yesterday's exection of off duty army engineers,the leader of the nationalist SDLP, Mark Durkan, condemned the "murderous" attacks.

"Those who committed it are steeped in the mindset and means of past violence," he added.

"They need to understand this is not an attack on British army but the Irish people who have voted for and value above all else peaceful politics and democratic accommodation."
The other parties have also condemned it.
Sinn Fein has ,so far, been silent.

Subject: RE: BS: The Irish Peace Process
From: Leadfingers
Date: 08 Mar 09 - 06:55 AM

Sadly there seem to be a very few 'Hard Line' republicans who do NOT want any kind of peace - Probably because it would put an end to a lot of their crimianl activity which they can currently cloak with some kind of Repuclcanism !

Subject: RE: BS: The Irish Peace Process
From: VirginiaTam
Date: 08 Mar 09 - 09:30 AM

Army units are being deployed again in NI Clear provocation on part of English, AGAIN!

Just heard ( 1:00pm news today) on BEEB Radio 4 - that 2 policemen shot execution style in NI. 2 pizza delivery people also injured.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2009/mar/08/northern-ireland-soldiers-killed-antrim

Can't tell me that this event is not a direct result of the English poking big nose in where it is not wanted. So fekking messed up.

Subject: RE: BS: The Irish Peace Process
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 08 Mar 09 - 09:46 AM

VT, you must have misheard.
The two killed and others badly wounded were military engineers not police.
The attack was well planned and must have been planned before the new deployment.
The deployment was explained as being required because of imminent threat of attack. That explanation now seems justified.
Also, there have been a number of unsuccessful bomb attacks on police PRIOR to the new deployment.
Whatever the causes of this set back to peace, it is hard to see that the recent deployment played any part.

Subject: RE: BS: The Irish Peace Process
From: VirginiaTam
Date: 08 Mar 09 - 10:32 AM

Keith you are right on the mis-hearing policeman. Oddly enough when I looked it up on I made mental note of the fact that is was military personnel not policemen and promptly forgot to adjust my post.

Still putting in forces especially intelligence gathering as the BBC Radio report intimated, could only create the conditions that would start this mess up again.

Also, I don't understand why or how this event was planned "before" the deployment? Doesn't make sense to me.

Subject: RE: BS: The Irish Peace Process
From: Teribus
Date: 08 Mar 09 - 12:46 PM

"Army units are being deployed again in NI Clear provocation on part of English, AGAIN!" - Virginnia Tam

Provocation on the part of the English eh?? Bit difficult that VT especially seeing as there has been no such political entity as the English since 1707.

As far as I am aware those soldiers killed had nothing whatsoever to do with the SRR units that are being deployed to Northern Ireland in response to a worsening security situation that has been telegraphed over the past eighteen months. The SRR is not a combat force and are tasked with intelligence gathering, so thay are not there to "fight" anybody.

This attack would have to have been reconnoitred and planned which would mean that this attack was in preparation long before the announcement of any SRR deployment was made.

As yet no-one has claimed responsibility for it, and as both Martin McGuinness and Gerry Adams have both said this act of murder will not further the Republican cause one jot.

Subject: RE: BS: The Irish Peace Process
From: Ireland
Date: 08 Mar 09 - 01:00 PM

Any one got a solution to the problem of the dissidents.

Here is the lay of the land, at present N.Ireland is accepted to be part off the UK by all political parties until there is a consenting majority to change that politically.

Thankfully those who used the ballot box and Armalite to gain a united Ireland has realised that was not the right way to got about it.

Given that we are part off the UK it is not unusual for the British Army to be stationed here, especially in garrison towns.

At the beginning of this peace process Pattens recommendations wrt RUC was put in place, quite simply we do not now have the counter terrorism experts to neutralise the so called IRA dissidents.

Do the people who use words such as the English poking their nose in understand what they are on about,these so called English have a Scottish priminister, and orther MP from all over the UK, so in real terms it is United Kingdom/British people poking their nose in a British part off the world, for the time being.

We have loyalist terrorist groups still in possession of their weapons. Do people not stop to think? These cowardly murderers has justified the loyalist crowd holding on to their weapons.

What happens if the dissidents get a few strikes like the bomb that was diffused a few week ago,btw this was not the result of the English sticking their nose in, it would have killed and maimed more than the Omagh Bomb.

What happens is this,remember the loyalist groups, idiots among them will take it upon themselves to protect their community and strike back at the dissidents and off it goes again.

Who care's if Orde brings in the Gurkhas or whoever as long as the threat of dissidents is neutralised before other decide it is time they take action.

We have a peace in N.Ireland hard won from the hands off terrorists it is the idiot that criticises anyone who takes any legal action to preserve that peace and prevents the murder off innocents.

I wish the families of the murdered all the best and they have my heart felt sympathies I hope for a speedy recovery off the innocent civilians and soldiers a swift recovery.

Subject: RE: BS: The Irish Peace Process
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 08 Mar 09 - 01:58 PM

One of the best posts I have ever seen on the situation, Ireland. I started the original wanting the views of people who know what is going on and have first hand experience of it. I do not know if you are there, I certainly hope so becauase if there were more with as much common sense I am sure the peace will be long lasting.

Thanks.

Dave

Subject: RE: BS: The Irish Peace Process
From: Leadfingers
Date: 08 Mar 09 - 02:47 PM

V T - I suggest that if that is the way you think about the Northern Ireland situation , you get the Hell back to America and stay there with the rest of the bloody fools who financed something like three thousand people killed in the thirty years of "The Troubles"

Subject: RE: BS: The Irish Peace Process
From: VirginiaTam
Date: 08 Mar 09 - 04:25 PM

Don't get me wrong. I don't approve of what the terrorists did in this or any event. I just can see how they may feel provoked and how Great Britain might alleviate the provocation.

Intellegence gathering is likely to be veiwed by any one with an ounce of common sense as provocative and threatening.

It does stink and I am ashamed that the US government did nothing to criminalise terrorist fundraising for the IRA on American soil. I had no hand in it and would not support such activity ever. Hell, I did not even know about it until following threads on mudcat and wanting to learn more.

And ok so maybe I shouldn't use the term English when it is Great Britain on the whole and not just the English individually making things all edgy. I am still a learner on the English/British distinction game. And I know I am not alone on that score. I have English, Scottish and Irish friends/colleagues who still get in a flap about it on simple demographics surveys.

Maybe I have been influenced incorrectly by excellent films like The Wind That Shakes the Barley and In the Name of the Father and Bloody Sunday. They put me in a high dudgeon about how brutally the catholic Irish have been treated.
So with my tiny knowledge and big heart, I feel if Great Britain would just back out then maybe the terrorists wouldn't have anything to get whipped up about.

Subject: RE: BS: The Irish Peace Process
From: Ireland
Date: 08 Mar 09 - 04:44 PM

Apparently South Antrim Real Ira admits the attack, they must be a proud bunch to bring murder and maiming back to N.Ireland.

Do these scum not realise we have been through enough and we could do without the unaware giving succor to them through condemning Hugh Orde's decision of using special forces.

Now is the time we should unite and rid ourselves off such murderers on both sides. It is just a pity SF and SDLP did not think off what they were saying and the message it sent to the murderers when they condemned Ordes decision, without giving an alternative plan to deal with this scum.

Subject: RE: BS: The Irish Peace Process
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 08 Mar 09 - 04:46 PM

and just what is it you propose VT? That everyone just leaves the thugs of both sides to do their worse? There is no doubt that British imperialism and monumental mis-management did more to cause the trouble than anything else, but to keep out of it now would just be abdicating responsibility. There is a mess in the north of Ireland that no-one wants to take responsibility for. Westminster would be glad to see the back of it. Dublin doesn't want it.

All I can suggest is take heed of Irelands excelent line - "it is the idiot that criticises anyone who takes any legal action to preserve that peace and prevents the murder off innocents." and when you say "Intellegence gathering is likely to be veiwed by any one with an ounce of common sense as provocative and threatening." remeber that the CIA world fact book is just the tip of the biggest intellegence gathering excercise ever undertaken

Cheers

DeG

Subject: RE: BS: The Irish Peace Process
From: VirginiaTam
Date: 08 Mar 09 - 05:30 PM

Hi David

I wish I knew how to fix it. I am certain the majority on both sides are eager to have done with it. The fact remains that there is a small contingent that will continue to play eye for eye. So if the provocation were removed then they have no eyes to gouge out but their own.

Any nose is too big and hasn't been bloodied enough if it continues in activities designed to threaten others. The more one watches the more the one being watched will resent and react against it. That's just human nature. I agree the CIA is a monstrous entity and what is the use of intelligence gathering. We see it was not used to prevent 911 disaster.   I used to edit Federal Code prior to and following 911. Some of the regulations and laws that passed my desk were eye opening to say the least. The stuff of nightmares to put it truthfully.

"What did the president know and when did he know it" is so mild in comparison to Dubya Jr. and his Wag the Dog first term.

I will shut up now except to offer my apologies to those I may have offended.

Subject: RE: BS: The Irish Peace Process
From: Ireland
Date: 08 Mar 09 - 05:40 PM

Maybe VT you should not talk about things you know little about, the problems in Ireland simply do not come from films that do not put both sides across.

Wrt US military who fought in WW2 do you really think John Wayne won the war? Oh come on, it is real life your talking about and we in N.Ireland do not need a recurrence of the murdering.

"Intellegence gathering is likely to be veiwed by any one with an ounce of common sense as provocative and threatening."

Please explain this,to whom would it pose a threat,the normal law abiding person or the murderer who has something to hide and nothing to offer except death.

We have our deputy first minister Mc Guinness, an ex IRA leader in London Derry during the time off Bloody Sunday, not being able to condemn the murders without referring to the past.

Guess what, we are trying to move forward,we can't do it bringing up the past as both sides have their scars and our DFM should realise that.

The Bloody Sunday massacre was a disgrace any decent minded person should see that but my generation cannot pay for that nor should the next.

If you want to truly understand Ireland read books from both sides you will find the truth between the two.

The murdering affected both sides and the establishment on both side did their fair share off discrimination when partition happened.

That was when the State of Ulster was established, from a unionist point off view N.Ireland was for the protestants and the Republic was for the Catholics. That nonsense was backed up by an ethnic cleansing on both sides, I am sure you only allow yourself to look at one sides perspective.

The members off the IRA during the 1920's took their revenge on a family that opposed them in the republic. They shot two young men in the groin in front off their family and watched them bleed to death in agony. Look up Coolacrease. You will find two differing accounts.

Th Catholic Church had its fair share off discrimination against protestants in the republic, they insisted that in mixed marriages the children should be brought up catholic, an attempt to rid them off protestants.

Ireland is not all black and white,and it's history is not to be learned from Wind In the Barley nor films such as The Hunger.

Subject: RE: BS: The Irish Peace Process
From: GUEST,lox
Date: 08 Mar 09 - 06:09 PM

The whole point of the IRA at the start of the 20th century and of the civil rights movement of the sixties and the IRA of the seventies was to attempt (rightly or wrongly) to affect change that would improve the lives of ordinary people.

The peace process, culminating in the uneasy handshake between McGuinesss and Paisley, has done more to achieve those goals than any bomb or bullet ever could.

There are some who may argue that those tactics were necessary in their time, and some who may argue that they were criminal, but that is not a discussion which should concern us now.

The point is still the wellbeing of ordinary people and a return to violence in modern day northern Ireland will not bring this, but will instead bring misery and death and in the long run poverty too as the economy begins to slide even deeper than any credit crunch could be expected to drive it.

Northern Ireland has so much potential to be a great and happy home for catholics and protestants, unionists and republicans, gays and straights, marmite lovers and marmite haters.

But they need a stable peaceful society in which to achieve such a goal.

If Pearce, Collins or any of Irelands great campaigners were around today, I believe they would observe that the opportunities and lifestyle available to the average catholic in Ireland today, north or south of the border, are as good as they ever could have hoped for.

It is the ordinary working family who matters and it is they who will suffer if the violence returns.

Subject: RE: BS: The Irish Peace Process
From: Ireland
Date: 08 Mar 09 - 06:46 PM

Well said LoX,but we have to remember that protestants suffered the same hardships that their Catholic neighbours did and that the Civil Rights movement was made up off protestants too.

Why I mention this is to illustrate that at that time 1960-70 the men off violence was convincing the ordinary man and women with united Ireland aspirations that killing was the way to do it.

Sooner or later the Civil Rights Movement if it had been allowed to continue would have brought about change with out the armalite or bomb.

Of course we know that idiots on both sides on Bloody Sunday put an end to that and who paid, the ordinary people. I think it is time the IRA told the truth about that day, we know how the Para's let us down and their commanders above that and then the original inquiry.

I think the inquiry costs should have been given to the Bloody Sunday victims families along with a heartfelt apology instead off solicitors and barristers.

Now we have the ridicules proposal from Eames and Bradley to pay £12000 to the family of every one who was killed.

Subject: RE: BS: The Irish Peace Process
From: GUEST,lox
Date: 08 Mar 09 - 07:58 PM

I don't think we need to spend one more day remembering - discussing - or arguing about the troubles of a previous generation.

As long as we are doing that we are neglecting the needs of the current generation.

The lesson to learn from the mismanagement of history is to ensure we manage the times properly today.

We need to focus on today.

We can't do anything to help our ancestors, but we can do everything to save our descendants from the same fate.

They don't need bickering fighting and killing.

They need peace, stability and freedom to pursue their happiness.

Subject: RE: BS: The Irish Peace Process
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 08 Mar 09 - 08:18 PM

Sinn Fein condemns attack on N. Irish army base:

"Irish nationalist party Sinn Fein on Sunday condemned the attack on a British army base in Northern Ireland, saying Republicans had a duty to oppose what it called a "wrong and counterproductive" act."

Subject: RE: BS: The Irish Peace Process
From: Ireland
Date: 08 Mar 09 - 10:00 PM

It took them over 16 hrs to do so, I wonder why, and I wonder what they think about their comments regarding the bringing in of special forces and the message the comments gave to the dissident murderers.

Orde was right, now the question is will Adams and SF live up o their hype, they want to represent all the people, so what about the unionist?

You are either a democratic politicians or your not SF do not make the same mistakes of the past like the idiotic unionist politicians.

Peace is a real threat to some nat/rep,for the simple reason, we are now starting to get the true society we deserve if that continues what will make people want to change the status quo?

Subject: RE: BS: The Irish Peace Process
From: Joe_F
Date: 08 Mar 09 - 10:27 PM

"Counterproductive" -- but of course, that is just what the people who made that attack were trying to be. In an ethnic pest zone, the problem is seldom a lack of decent, sensible people who want to live & let live. Usually, they are a large majority. The problem is that because of sentimentality the crazies hold them hostage. Often, one provocation is enough to make them start all over again. Is that still true in Northern Ireland? That Sinn Fein says it isn't is good to hear, but we'll see.

Subject: RE: BS: The Irish Peace Process
From: Ireland
Date: 09 Mar 09 - 12:11 AM

To be honest the decision by Orde to bring in the special forces was exploited by both SF and the SDLP but unfortunately others have to pay for politicians mistakes, in this case two soldiers and civvy pizza delivery men.

We have according to the other forums that deal with N.Ireland, people who think if dissidents were killed by the special forces nat/rep would take up arms.

Saying and doing is two different things but there is still enough of the old victim culture about to give enough succor to dissidents to encourage them that they have a mandate.

We for the sake of our children need decisive leadership, many nat/rep hate the dissidents and realise the only response to them will be the bringing back of troops. They know that would not be in any ones interest, although Orde rules out deploying troops, one thing for sure Patten has left us with not enough police to curtail any activities like Sat night.

Again everyone condemns and comes up with no solution especially SF and SDLP this is being recognised by the law abiding nat/rep,which in a funny way is a threat to SF.

When push has come to shove we see that SF is not automatically taking the Catholic vote, the 11+ initiative is showing that not all Catholics toe the republican party line. If it happens there then it will in other areas.

All I worry about is that the loyalists will not hold back for too long if the dissident murderers make a successful bombing and takes lives for some loyalist that will be the excuse to retaliate.

SF now need to get unionists on side and real words of condemnation will help to achieve that, not mealy mouthed statement 16 hrs or more after attacks,which does not fool anyone even their own supporters.

I take comfort from the known rep/nat on other mb's who express their sympathy for the murders and they mean it. We need SF to follow suit.

Subject: RE: BS: The Irish Peace Process
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 09 Mar 09 - 07:04 PM

...if dissidents were killed by the special forces...

The thing is that "the special forces" in Northern Ireland are still liable to be seen as the people who in the past have not worried too much about restricting their killing to "dissidents".

That is why deploying them tends to be seen as provocative - and as playing into the hands of those who would like to fire up the war once again. Those whose intention, in Gerry Adams' words is "To bring British soldiers back onto the streets. They want to destroy the progress of recent times and to plunge Ireland back into conflict."

Subject: RE: BS: The Irish Peace Process
From: Ireland
Date: 09 Mar 09 - 07:26 PM

The whinge of special forces killing more than just terrorist would have more meaning to it if the IRA had not been the biggest killers of Catholics than all the different groups put together including the security forces.

I would have no compunction in using a sniper to take out a sniper and using SR regiment to take on the dissidents. Now if they started killing the people who were responsible for bringing them back in the first place they would give the game away.

And in real terms do getting rid off them does all sides a favour.

Why should we worry about one sides feelings and forget the others, do the unionist/protestants who want peace not deserve to be defended from these murderers. Or is SF only concerned with their community?

This is as much a test for SF as it is for the rest off us,will SF defend their protestant constituents/

Subject: RE: BS: The Irish Peace Process
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 10 Mar 09 - 02:15 AM

It used to be a favourite trick of the Provisionals.
Send in a plea for help, wait for the police to rush to assist, and then gun down the officers.
So easy. The victims deliver themselves into the ambush.

Subject: RE: BS: The Irish Peace Process
From: ollaimh
Date: 10 Mar 09 - 11:01 PM

wowie i'm on!

i think it's important for the british government to come clean about a lot of abuse going back at least to the civil rights movement.

back in the eighties the tripartite report on northen ireland found that there had never been a democratically elected government in ni as the catholic communities were not fully enumerated before the troubles, and after the troubles the danage was used as an excuse not to enumerate the catholic neighbourhoods.

they found that tortute was in widespread use by the government.

they found that evedience of terrorist activity was routinely fabricated.in one c ase the same gun was attached to over thirty different affidavits claiming that an accused was the possessor of the gun. these affidavits and hearings were without counsel nor were the accused allowed to be present or see the evidence, under the anti terroorist legislation. sad to say the authorities got very heavy handed to say the least.

most troubling the tripartite commission found that the british security service provided dossiers on a suspected five thousand plus terrorists to the sas then the sas provoded the arms and dossiers to the protestant militants(who in their day jobs were usually members of the ulster constabulary or the royal irish regiment--the only regiment in the britsich army that is recruited and stationed locally and that works part time). so the militants successfuly killed at leat three thousand of these targets before the projexct managers realized that the targets were not ira. most were union leader, day organizers, and comunity activists.

all these issues were raised inparliament and not denied at the time.n in the british system they take lying to parliament seriously--pity american politicians don't.

in addition the bloody sun day massacre was totally one sided. the british governemnt has been a major motivator in the escalating violence and sectarianism. the only realy solution is for them to get out and arrange a united nations nato or european union force to police and govern under a transitional syatem untill an independant northern ireland can be established. tyhen if they democratically vote for union with anyone so be it, or is they prefer to remain independent ok for them.

the seriousness os assinating three thousand of your own citizens is gargantuan. even bloddy sunday and the followong coverup--recently admitted to--pales in comparison.

the tripartite report is no secert. the economist magazine ran an editorial after it was released advocating british withdrawal. in canada the globe and mail did much the same. both new papers published extensive sections of the report.

i agree it is not a religious struggle. it is a colonial war, just an old colonial war. but that knowledge alone doesn't do much. british withdrawal and international government is the only short term solution. the ira has acceoted the oeace orocess as they know that the pprotestant militants have alway been dependent on aid from the british army and that they have alway benifited from their dominance on governemnt jobs. under the peace process catholics will get half these jobs and one will no longer be able to rum protestant military organization from you dexkn in the police office or the civil service. but this is a sectarian advantage and in the long run may lead to equality but the short run requires a fair government and there hasn't been one in northern ireland since elizabeth the first.


ps and i'm a canadian protestant!!! although i am part highland scottish from cape breton origionally. i remember when i was young the ira had supporters in our folk get togethers, especially in boston.(scottish corner in boston referws to cape breton scotts --we spoke gaelic back then and settled near our irish cousins although we were split fifty between portestansts and catholics--some boston capers were pro ira some weren't but i used to hear these discussions from the day i arrived to the day i left)

Subject: RE: BS: The Irish Peace Process
From: Big Mick
Date: 11 Mar 09 - 10:06 AM

In response to a deleted post, this thread will not be shut down. But it is being monitored closely. Stick to a discussion of the issues. Any type of threat or personal attack will be deleted as will any posts that reference same.

It is a touchy issue that we have been discussing here almost since the beginning. As history plays out this latest chapter, the running debate is interesting and relevant. Passions run high, and language can be impassioned. But there will be no attacks or implied threats. Anyone who threatens, or implies a threat could face expulsion.

Mick Lane
-Forum Moderator-

Subject: RE: BS: The Irish Peace Process
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 11 Mar 09 - 10:13 AM

ollaimh, I would love to challenge all the points in your post, but let us please keep this thread for discussing the current and future peace process.
There are many, many existing threads on the troubles that you could reopen, or please start a new one.
keith.

Subject: RE: BS: The Irish Peace Process
From: Big Mick
Date: 11 Mar 09 - 11:23 AM

The rules, as stated many times, are that no one can use multiple personalities. You must post under a consistent name, ***Al***, even if you choose not to be a member.

As to the one sided contention, you will note that the post by olliamh is still in place.

Mick

Subject: RE: BS: The Irish Peace Process
From: Jeri
Date: 11 Mar 09 - 12:02 PM

Also, read Joe's comment in the first post:
'This thread is open to established members only. Guest posts and posts from new members will not be accepted.
-Joe Offer-'
Jeri, Another Forum Moderator

Subject: RE: BS: The Irish Peace Process
From: Teribus
Date: 11 Mar 09 - 01:04 PM

most troubling the tripartite commission found that the british security service provided dossiers on a suspected five thousand plus terrorists to the sas then the sas provoded the arms and dossiers to the protestant militants(who in their day jobs were usually members of the ulster constabulary or the royal irish regiment--the only regiment in the britsich army that is recruited and stationed locally and that works part time). so the militants successfuly killed at leat three thousand of these targets before the projexct managers realized that the targets were not ira. most were union leader, day organizers, and comunity activists." – olliamh

Let's see 5,000 dossiers; Protestant militants killed at least 3,000 of them before realizing that they were not IRA but Trade Union Leaders, Day Organizers (??), and Community Activists (??)

Unfortunately this does not accord with the statistics and figures from the Sutton Survey which is considered to be the most comprehensive index of deaths resulting from the conflict in Northern Ireland from 14 July 1969 and 31 December 2001. The Sutton Survey details approximately 3500 deaths and 36,000 injured during the troubles. Draft figures per year have also been tabulated from 2002 to 2009 and they total 58, those are not included I the figures given below.

CAIN Web Service
Summary of Organisation responsible for the death:

Organisation:
1.        Republican Paramilitary        2057
2.        Loyalist Paramilitary                1019
3.        British Security                363
4.        Not Known                        82
5.        Irish Security                        5
•        TOTAL                        3526

If indeed this matter is to be discussed, then let us discuss what is fact and not fantasy.

Subject: RE: BS: The Irish Peace Process
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 11 Mar 09 - 03:28 PM

Raking over the past, whether it's the 1640s or the 1970s, isn't really too helpful.

True enough, to understand what happens today we need to have some understanding of what happened before, and of the stories about what hapened before - which aren't always exactly the same thing.

But too often, rather than being about exploring the roots of what is happening today, the past is used as a way of allowing us to turn away from actually thinking about what's happening today.

Subject: RE: BS: The Irish Peace Process
From: VirginiaTam
Date: 11 Mar 09 - 04:19 PM

The silent demonstrations held today (I heard a smidge about on the BEEB Radio 4) makes me feel quite hopeful. BBC report from Northern Ireland

Subject: RE: BS: The Irish Peace Process
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 11 Mar 09 - 04:34 PM

Virginia, back in the 70s there were comparable or bigger protests against the activities of PIRA.
PIRA igored it all and another quarter of a century of violence and death ensued.

Subject: RE: BS: The Irish Peace Process
From: Teribus
Date: 11 Mar 09 - 05:19 PM

Absolutely Kevin - "to understand what happens today we need to have some understanding of what happened before".

As for, "the stories about what hapened before" such as Protestant militants killing at least 3,000 people we can damn well do without, because those stories help to perpetuate grievances and they are totally false.

Subject: RE: BS: The Irish Peace Process
From: GUEST,Observer
Date: 11 Mar 09 - 07:03 PM

There is much could be said in defence of the republican cause on this thread but there would be no point as the post would probably vanish by the hand of someone republican members could once have counted on as a friend. This new development has saddened me to no end. I read it as a clear expression of what side of the bed they lie on regarding current North of Ireland politics.

I admire the stand being taken by the pro republican members of the forum in not becoming involved in what has clearly become a one sided debate among people with no ground level knowledge or experience of Ireland.

I am pleased to see two members posting on another forum over the past few days.

Enjoy your debate folks, keep it civil !

Subject: RE: BS: The Irish Peace Process
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 11 Mar 09 - 07:41 PM

"This new development has saddened me to no end." I take it this doesn't refer to the killings, but to the decision of a mudelf in respect of some post. First things first, obviously...
....................

I think there are some significant differences between the Peace People demonstrations back in the 70s and these latest which Keith mentioned. The political and social context is very different, and so, it appears, is the breadth of support. They were trying to stop a war that was raging, with atrocities on both sides stoking the conflict. This time it's a matter of trying to prevent an attempt to get a fresh war started by actions intended to provoke counter-atrocities.

Subject: RE: BS: The Irish Peace Process
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 12 Mar 09 - 03:07 AM

Observer, it is not just "people with no ground level knowledge or experience of Ireland. " who have turned their back on you.
Observe the demonstrations and the outpouring of public horror.

PIRA only had a minority support from the minority Nationalist population.
Now, you only have a tiny minority of them left.

You are in denial.

Mudcat merely reflects that.
Den has said that no "right thinking people" support you.
Ard Mhacha has called RIRA "traitorous scum".

Is it really true that Mudcatters are posting in support on other forums?
Only in your crazed dreams I think.

The people you claim to be fighting for just want you to stop.

Subject: RE: BS: The Irish Peace Process
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 12 Mar 09 - 04:22 AM

I take back "fighting"
There was no fighting this week.
Just the cynical execution of 2 unarmed lads, and a middle aged dad.

Subject: RE: BS: The Irish Peace Process
From: Den
Date: 12 Mar 09 - 08:40 AM

I think that it is important for all sides of the debate to "stick to the rules" and quit delving into the past to support arguements. We know from experience that, that particular ploy gets us nowhere. It just moves us around in circles of recrimination. It has taken a long hard road to get many of us to where we now stand. It doesn't help to rake up old coals. Please stay on topic in the here and now or I for one will withdraw from this debate and I have a good deal to offer.

Subject: RE: BS: The Irish Peace Process
From: GUEST,lox
Date: 12 Mar 09 - 10:11 AM

I'd like to repeat - there is nothing we can do now to save our ancestors.

We have to think about our children.

Do you want them to live in a war zone?


Noone has the right to tarnish the beauty of this place

And I think these people have infinitely better "ground level knowledge or experience of Ireland" than you, both because it is they who will suffer if violence returns, but mainly because for them it isn't an abstract romantic fantasy but something real that they fear.

Any defence of RIRA is psychotic at best and criminal at worst.

Subject: RE: BS: The Irish Peace Process
From: Teribus
Date: 12 Mar 09 - 12:05 PM

It was suggested earlier that these attacks were somehow triggered by the revelation that SRR surveillance units were being deployed to the province. This might explain why they were requested:

Dissident Republican Activity

1.        11th February 2008 – Derry - Man shot dead


2.        12th February 2008 – Doneyloop – Man shot dead

3.        12th May 2008 – Sparmount – Police Officer injured when a booby trap device placed under his car explodes.

4.        16th August, 2008 – Lisnaskea – Rocket propelled grenade which fails to explode fired at three police officers.

5.        26th August 2008 – Craigavon – Riots, shootings and bomb attacks after a bomb warning.

6.        31st January 2009 – Castlewellan – Police render safe and prevent the explosion of a 300lb Car Bomb.

7.        25th February 2009 – Newtownabbey – Pipe bomb thrown at car

8.        7th march 2009 – Massereene Base – RIRA murder 2 off duty soldiers and seriously wound four others including two civilians.

9.        9th March 2009 – Craigavon – CIRA murder one Police Officer.


In the face of this, just exactly what did anybody think the response of the PSNI should have been.

The request to increase surveillance and intelligence gathering would seem only too appropriate and maybe should have been requested after incident 5, detailed above.

Most disturbing is the incident in Castlewellan, apparently latest is that PSNI are now searching for a similar RIRA Bomb that sources say has been smuggled into Northern Ireland - I sincerely hope that they find it and render it safe before it is detonated.

Subject: RE: BS: The Irish Peace Process
From: Den
Date: 12 Mar 09 - 12:30 PM

Teribus, the majority of Republicans and Nationalists have decided to move on from the arms campaign. The people believe in a democratic way forward. Do you have a list for that?

Subject: RE: BS: The Irish Peace Process
From: Den
Date: 12 Mar 09 - 12:33 PM

Sorry that should have read armed campaign.

Subject: RE: BS: The Irish Peace Process
From: Teribus
Date: 12 Mar 09 - 12:55 PM

"the majority of Republicans and Nationalists have decided to move on from the armed campaign. The people believe in a democratic way forward. Do you have a list for that?"

Very pleased to here that the majority of Republicans and Nationalists have caught up with the vast majority of people of Ireland who indicated their marked aversion to the armed campaign about ten years ago - There was an "ALL IRELAND" Referendum on it. Might not be a list but it's near enough and more than good enough for me.

Now if the the majority of Republicans and Nationalists have decided to move on from the armed campaign. Then maybe they will co-operate in ending the careers of such as the RIRA and CIRA once and for all.

Subject: RE: BS: The Irish Peace Process
From: GUEST,lox
Date: 13 Mar 09 - 08:16 PM

"Now if the the majority of Republicans and Nationalists have decided to move on from the armed campaign. Then maybe they will co-operate in ending the careers of such as the RIRA and CIRA once and for all."

This is is not at issue and is a little offensive as it implies some kind of responsibility on those who didn't do anything for those who did.

What kind of cooperation do you mean?

What can your average nationalist/republican do as distinct from any other member of society to cooperate in ending the careers of RIRA and CIRA.

Teribus, I had noted an apparent new found fairness to your commentary.

If this isn't deliberately inflammatory then would you mind providing some kind of reassurance to those of us who have no truck with terrorists that you aren't lumping us in with them on the basis of our political/cultural standpoint.

Subject: RE: BS: The Irish Peace Process
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 13 Mar 09 - 09:23 PM

" the majority of Republicans and Nationalists have caught up with the vast majority of people of Ireland"

The vast majority of the people of Ireland are Republicans and Nationalists.

Subject: RE: BS: The Irish Peace Process
From: Teribus
Date: 13 Mar 09 - 10:47 PM

Good point Kevin, but I think you do actually know that I was referring to those mentioned in Den's post who had moved on from the armed struggle, my fault should have made that clearer.

Oh by the bye - The majority of people in the North of Ireland are neither Republicans or Nationalists.

Subject: RE: BS: The Irish Peace Process
From: Teribus
Date: 13 Mar 09 - 10:47 PM

100 Up

Subject: RE: BS: The Irish Peace Process
From: Ireland
Date: 14 Mar 09 - 04:52 AM

"The vast majority of the people of Ireland are Republicans and Nationalists. "

If that was so then we would have a vote on an All Ireland would we not?

For myself I see that nat/rep have a duty to make it really clear to the various IRA groups they have not got support,but what bothers me is this inbuilt willingness to support anything IRA if SF declares an action not to their liking.

How many people, post murders of the soldiers and policeman, declare the introduction of the SRR would make them join the dissidents if any of them were killed by "special forces", maybe not many here but in other forums such statements were made.

When challenged these people cite crud from years ago and then lambast their opposite number for fearing the rise of the IRA's because they get succor from this support.

I am sure the various IRA's thought hold on a minute are we dealing with schizophrenics one min they show support the next they want to lynch us.

All that is based on the way SF sway support or not for dissidents.Pre-murders and post see totally different declarations this can only be resolved by nat\rep unionists\loyalists can only look on until SF made up their mind for outright condemnation.

One thing for sure it was great to see the "enemies" stand together to oppose a common cause and doing so with an understanding of each others past and that neither want a return to violence.

Subject: RE: BS: The Irish Peace Process
From: Teribus
Date: 14 Mar 09 - 05:15 AM

Basically it boils down to this - You either have government and rule of law or you don't. There is no half-way house where you pay lip-service to rule of law but keep a private army in the wardrobe to take out and threaten the population with every time decisions are made that you don't agree with.

The day of the paramilitaries is over in Northern Ireland and everybody must get behind that and let them, and those who would join them, know that. Condemnation of the recent acts from the President of the United States and senior figures in his administration would help, so far there has been silence that can only encourage the dissidents.

The penalties for failure are severe in the extreme, lots of references have been made to a return of the "bad old days", only a few realise that there wouldn't be any return to the "bad old days", were the Irish Peace Process to fail the days to come would be far, far worse than anything that you have ever seen at any time in the past.

Subject: RE: BS: The Irish Peace Process
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 14 Mar 09 - 07:06 PM

V.T. I think you are seeing this from a not particularly well informed viewpoint.

Northern Ireland IS, until its inhabitants decide by democratic vote to change its status, a part of Great Britain. So to talk about sticking its nose into other peoples' business is less than accurate.

Also, the two murdered engineers were in transit, leaving for Iraq or Afghanistan, I'm not quite sure which. They certainly were NOT intelligence officers, nor were they involved in any Northern Ireland military operations.

All of this, however is somewhat off the point. In raking up old arguments and old grudges we are doing exactly what the killers want.

Fortunately the people of Northern Ireland are NOT following suit.

When I see thousands of catholic, protestant, republican, and loyalist Irishmen keeping silent vigil in protest against the murder of two British soldiers, and one Irish policeman, I am convinced that the desire for peace in the general population now negates old grudges and bitter feelings for the majority.

A few despicable bigots (political, or religious, take your pick) have tried to drive a wedge between what used to be separate, warring factions, only to find that they have brought the community (for it is apparently one community now, with a few exceptions) closer together, and tightened the newly established bonds.

If attacks continue, I believe that the community will flush out and remove the dissidents (hopefully by legal means). At the very least, there are probably no safe places for them to go to ground any more.

Last I heard the police were questioning two suspects about the policeman's death, and three suspects for the soldiers.

Long live peace in Ireland
Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: The Irish Peace Process
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 15 Mar 09 - 12:36 PM

This morning some even more heartening news.

A total of nine people in custody, under interrogation about the murders.

A police chief who states that there will be NO military intervention, and that his men can and will cope with their job.

Loyalists making it very clear that the guns will NOT be used in retaliation, and that they, like the Republicans, are committed to the political process.

Peace
Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: The Irish Peace Process
From: GUEST,Keith A o Hertford
Date: 15 Mar 09 - 01:52 PM

Do not hold your breath about the arrests.
They will have experienced lawyers and, of course, no prosecution witnesses.
It is all down to forensics or they could all walk.

It seems that they failed to burn the getaway car from the pizza murders.

Subject: RE: BS: The Irish Peace Process
From: Stringsinger
Date: 15 Mar 09 - 03:43 PM

The problem that President Obama has with condemning private armies is that the US
has consistently employed "Blackwater" (now Xe), Triple Canopy and other private mercenary armies in Iraq and probably Afghanistan.

I applaud the musical efforts of Tommy Sands in his song "There Were Roses" and "The Music of Healing". This from my perspective does more to facilitate peace negotiations
between the two sides then all the treaties and conferences can.

The aggressive tribal tendencies which seem to stem from genes to ensure survival in ancient times need to be changed to fit the realities of the Twenty-First Century.
"We hold these truths to be self-evident that all men may be cremated equal"...
(Verne Partlow...from the song..."Ol' Man Atom".

Stringsinger

Subject: RE: BS: The Irish Peace Process
From: meself
Date: 15 Mar 09 - 04:46 PM

Not sure that Obama really has much to do with it ...

Subject: RE: BS: The Irish Peace Process
From: Teribus
Date: 16 Mar 09 - 02:21 AM

Bill Clinton and his Administration played a significant role in moving the process along to the GFA

George W. Bush and his Administration played a significant role getting the PIRA to decommission its weapons and stand down

Barack Obama and his Administration have remained silent while one of America's allies has been subject to terrorist violence from an off-shoots of an organisation which in the past have been supported by citizens of the US.

Immediate post 9/11, GWB's announcement of the "War on Terror" and a few choice words from Richard Haas told the terrorists in Ireland exactly on what side of the line stood if they continued.

Subject: RE: BS: The Irish Peace Process
From: Stu
Date: 16 Mar 09 - 04:25 AM

"The day of the paramilitaries is over in Northern Ireland and everybody must get behind that and let them, and those who would join them, know that"

Er, that's not quite true. Loyalist paramilitaries have not disarmed and still have plenty of weapons, so it's time for them to disarm too.

Subject: RE: BS: The Irish Peace Process
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 16 Mar 09 - 05:19 AM

They should.
Republican paramilitary violence will give them an excuse not to.
They have been using the threat of it as an excuse anyway.

Subject: RE: BS: The Irish Peace Process
From: Ireland
Date: 16 Mar 09 - 09:33 AM

Here is an interesting account of the history of Ireland, as for others who said the English poked their nose in were it was not wanted might rethink when they find out.....denn denn dennnnnnnn

They were asked over in the first place. look up Dermot MacMurrough and the agreement he made in 1170 with King Henry 2 of England.

follow link and go to post 11.

http://sluggerotoole.com/index.php/weblog/comments/whatever-happened-to-gerry-adams/

Subject: RE: BS: The Irish Peace Process
From: Den
Date: 16 Mar 09 - 09:57 AM

Sorry, I like many others have moved on so no amount of goading will change my mind. There are encouraging signs from both sides of the divide in response to the attacks of the last week. I listened this week to "Talk Back," a phone-in show from Radio Ulster in which many people including a guy who claimed to be ex PIRA who stated they would have no reservations in contacting the authorities if they had any information to impart in regard to dissident activity.

Subject: RE: BS: The Irish Peace Process
From: Ireland
Date: 16 Mar 09 - 10:43 AM

My post was not trying to goad anyone sorry if you think it was,btw I listen to David Dunseith every day, but have no time for that fat tub Nolan.

For myself all I can say is I had a very rough time at the hands of the IRA, the murders brought back terrible memories for my wife and family, who have to live with my problems every day. If people do not understand the fear that the murders brought to those harmed by the IRA they know little about here or simply do not care.

Not to goad but I have to recall McGuinness saying they haven't gone away you know, referring to the IRA. As for ex IRA men informing on others I seriously doubt it. It would set a precedence that could cause an internal war within the various IRA organisations. Although from a personal point of view I wish it would happen.

If you grew up in N.Ireland the words touts beware plastered every where, would have a certain resonance to such statements.

Remember McGuinness and his Bloody Sunday evidence,he would not discuss or name past IRA members he would be obliged to revise that stance.

An interesting bit on Bloody Sunday: http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/2008/mar/19/northernireland.northernireland3

Subject: RE: BS: The Irish Peace Process
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 16 Mar 09 - 11:16 AM

It seems a bit of a stretch, Teribus, for you to be castigating Obama for minding his own business.

Northern Ireland was never the business of the United States except in so far as it had to react to its citizens funding terrorism. Since this is no longer the case, why, pray, should Obama feel obligated to involve himself in any discussion of events in that sovereign country 3000 miles outside his presidential jurisdiction?

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: The Irish Peace Process
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 16 Mar 09 - 11:32 AM

If Bush had kept HIS beak out of the affairs of other faraway countries, American soldiers would not be dying in an illegal war.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: The Irish Peace Process
From: Ireland
Date: 16 Mar 09 - 11:56 AM

If American influence in Ireland especially N.Ireland means little why do we have our MLA's breaking their necks trying to be the first to meet US presidents.

We need the same response from Obama as Bush gave to terrorists to let the dissidents know that their form of politics is not welcome.

These people look to the world press to see who condemns them and takes comfort from those who do not, especially those who have opposed them in the past, different administration different opinion.

Subject: RE: BS: The Irish Peace Process
From: Ireland
Date: 16 Mar 09 - 02:31 PM

Jean McConville springs to mind when Divis is mentioned, murdered for showing human kindness.

It is pathetic we have idiots who see the children of today out rioting just like their parents generation did as something good.

Thank heavens a community club supervisor in Lurgan tell's us that the young going there see the troubles as nothing to do with them, they were not born during the "war".

From the mouth of babes I would say they are asking to be left alone but dissident do not care about that they have hooked the few.

This is the problem if the young grow up and have no problems with their neighbours then the possibility that a United Ireland would seem remote or at the very least not the first thing on their mind.

The funny thing about the riots is these idiots are burning out their own neighbours how sad.

Subject: RE: BS: The Irish Peace Process
From: GUEST,lox
Date: 16 Mar 09 - 03:00 PM

Nationalism.

To me this means loving ones country.

It means being proud of ones cultural identity.

It means identifying with ones own nation and having a care for it.

It means nurturing its children.

It means taking responsibility for ensuring their right to peacefully grow and coexist and providing them with a safe happy home.

It means doing everything to make sure they NEVER play with petrol bombs, guns, ... lives ...

It means making sure that psychotic murderers never come into contact with them or lead them into harms way.

If you want war for our children then you have no love for your country - you have no self respect or care for our descendants.

This is not war, it is vandalism of a fledgling but functioning peaceful society for most.

We've had enough of paranoia and fear and those who bring it - like PIRA - are in my view in the same category as the Black and Tans and Oliver Cromwell in their contempt for the children of Ireland.

Subject: RE: BS: The Irish Peace Process
From: Ireland
Date: 16 Mar 09 - 03:34 PM

I'm keeping a copy of that lox because that is what nationalism is.

Subject: RE: BS: The Irish Peace Process
From: Stringsinger
Date: 17 Mar 09 - 01:56 PM

The simple problem is the use of violence to solve dilemmas. it simply doesn't work.
Nationalism is a double-edged sword. A lot depends upon how far the Nationalist wants
to widen the circle of inclusion.

There is something ironic when the genetic make-up people from Ireland, Northern Ireland, Britain, and Scotland are pretty much the same.

The same is true with the Mid-east with Jews, Palestinians, Arabs of all persuasions and Iranians.

Their similarities outweigh their differences. In each case, they are from the same genetic gene pool. The differences are ideological in nature stemming from religious, political or social bias and each of these is used as a weapon to instigate further useless violence.

The solution is cross-culturalization so that the warring parties really understand each other. This is the history of the evolution of mankind and the reason that we haven't destroyed each other so far.

Frank

Subject: RE: BS: The Irish Peace Process
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 17 Mar 09 - 07:06 PM

Northern Ireland IS, until its inhabitants decide by democratic vote to change its status, a part of Great Britain.

Northern Ireland is not,never has been, and never could be a part of "Great Britain". Great Britain is an island, not a country. It contains England, Scotland and Wales. Together with Northern Ireland it makes up "the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland".

Subject: RE: BS: The Irish Peace Process
From: Victor in Mapperton
Date: 17 Mar 09 - 07:27 PM

That is indeed correct sir.

I have just spent the most wonderful day with some Irish friends celebrating Saint Patrick's day in their home.

Keith A of Hertford & Mr.Ireland, Someone once told me, you should explain all reasoning's (preferably with truth) as it helps the end reader to better judge and understand the situation. It also makes it easier to understand the logic and arrive at their own conclusion.

Always & no matter the case, include both sides of the story to balance things out. Your post should always be written from a neutral point of view.

After thirty years of seemingly endless death, injury and destruction in Ireland your 'blame the IRA' school of thought has a certain attraction for only the same few members on every thread. these people seem to find it difficult to understand why the fighting started.

We were at fault Keith, successive British governments were at fault, they treated the Irish people with contempt and murdered thousands in the name of the protestant faith. They stole land and property from ordinary people, yes ordinary people who did not take up the sword against them.

I agree with you the IRA murdered and bombed without consideration for man nor beast, please remember our government colluded with Loyalist groups in Ulster to kill hundreds of innocent people at the same time as this was going on. The Dublin and Monaghan bombings are one example.

Irish threads on Mudcat were once happy, cheerful, light-hearted, and joyful. Now Mr.Ireland & Keith A. swiftly brought an end to this by their constant banging on about the IRA and posting lots of figures of only Irish deeds, not British. It's as if you cut & paste the same comments on every Irish thread you visit. At best they are boring, at worst it is down right insulting and abusive. Please reflect on what I have said and give consideration to throwing your big mixing spoon into your dustbin.

This site is no place for your toxic one sided arguement.

I bid you goodnight.

Subject: RE: BS: The Irish Peace Process
From: Ireland
Date: 17 Mar 09 - 10:07 PM

Not rising to the bait AR.

Subject: RE: BS: The Irish Peace Process
From: Ireland
Date: 17 Mar 09 - 10:41 PM

Sorry must apologise to Mr Vincent for thinking he was someone else.

I have to ask though what are you on about, we are not being asked to compare and contrast, nor give an academical dissertation as we reply to people who use the same literary tactic that I use and yet you do not castigate them in the same manner.

In general when people discuss topics they base their replies on their own experience and cut and paste is not my style never has been since it was made aware to me that it is frowned upon.

What I have done is back up my views and opinions with facts where possible and with first hand experience of what it is like to live in N.Ireland,are you able to do so?

You see the St Patricks day business as a party maybe an excuse to get drunk, whereas the real followers of St Patrick see this as a time of remembering our Holy Saint.

Which Sir does not start nor end in drunkenness and the false sentimentality and patronizing that it brings about of which your post seems a prime example.

We have another example of the hijacking of this religious celebration with alcohol,is the rioting in the HolyLands area by students, who like some use this as an excuse to get drunk and over emotional. Do try to keep an excuse to get drunk as far from the celebration of our Holy Saints as possible please and maybe some people may not look as hypocritical as they do.

BTW how should I explain to you that the thugs who rioted in Lurgan caused the St Patrick's Day celebration, held for children, to be canceled out of fear for children's safety and well being,using your standard you set out.

Would I really need to compare and contrast and be "neutral" or just say thugs ruined an annual religious event for children.

Subject: RE: BS: The Irish Peace Process
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 18 Mar 09 - 04:24 AM

Victor, I do not feel that your post describes my position.
(I wouldn't, would I!)

I know the North was misgoverned for years, and that Britain is culpable.
I have never, EVER, denied that.
So far OK?

Come the 70s. Civil Rights movement.
I supported them then, and I still do.
Everyone I know and knew did.
So far OK?

What to do about it?
NICRA, and then SDLP believed in non violent politcal action.
They opposed PIRA.
They had the overwhelming support of the Nationalist people.
That is an undisputed fact and is easily proveable.
I just happen to agree with them.
Why is that not OK?

It does not prove PIRA was wrong.
The majority is not always right.
But if you have an issue, address the FACT that I just agree with the Nationalist majority.

Now can we move on 40 years please?

Subject: RE: BS: The Irish Peace Process
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 18 Mar 09 - 04:27 AM

Oh, and when were Irish threads EVER happy, cheerful, light-hearted, and joyful?
Not the NI political threads I think!

Subject: RE: BS: The Irish Peace Process
From: Victor in Mapperton
Date: 18 Mar 09 - 04:28 AM

I have just received a filthy disgusting private message from this person above called Ireland warning me to stay off this thread. Charming, it takes a very brave man to send such threats.

Subject: RE: BS: The Irish Peace Process
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 18 Mar 09 - 06:36 AM

Obama hs spoken on the dissident murders.
"And the real question was this", he said. "When tested, how would the people of Northern Ireland respond?" (to the murders)

"Now we know the answer: They responded heroically. They and their leaders on both sides have condemned this violence and refrained from the old partisan impulses.

"They've shown they judge progress by what you build and not what you tear down. And they know that the future is too important to cede to those who are mired in the past."
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/northern_ireland/7949550.stm

Subject: RE: BS: The Irish Peace Process
From: Ireland
Date: 18 Mar 09 - 07:42 AM

I feel I have to make an apology to the real Victor as it seems his account has been hacked, wow AR where do yo stop?

If you have the pm please do us all a favour and post it.

Subject: RE: BS: The Irish Peace Process
From: Ireland
Date: 18 Mar 09 - 10:05 AM

Any chance of posting the pm please,I am interested in what I wrote, considering I have never pm'ed Victor.

Subject: RE: BS: The Irish Peace Process
From: Victor in Mapperton
Date: 18 Mar 09 - 11:05 AM

No one has "hacked" my account as you put it, would you please just leave me alone. No I will not post your filth on this page, you know very well what you wrote Ireland.

Subject: RE: BS: The Irish Peace Process
From: Ireland
Date: 18 Mar 09 - 11:18 AM

You have left me with no choice but to call you a liar, pm me the message if it offends your sensibilities.

In no way would I resort to such nonsense,put up or retract your lies.

Subject: RE: BS: The Irish Peace Process
From: Victor in Mapperton
Date: 18 Mar 09 - 11:24 AM

I request assistance as to how to put a block on this individual. Would someone who maintains this site please contact me.

Thank you.

---

Please contact me by e-mail. Be sure to send me copies of the messages that are causing you trouble.
-Joe Offer, Forum Moderator-
[e-mail]

Subject: RE: BS: The Irish Peace Process
From: Ireland
Date: 18 Mar 09 - 12:00 PM

If you are genuine I will do all I can to help, are you getting more pm's? If so post them or send them to me please.

I do not do what you accusing me of such acts and your reluctance to put forward evidence is doing you no favours.

Here is my last word with whoever posted this, I have asked Joe to look at my account and see who I have pm'ed this last two days.

Total list of my pm's since I came here show me where any is sent to Victor, I am sure Joe can confirm this.

PM         Big Mick (3)
PM         Big Tim (2)
PM         Black Beauty (3)
PM         DougR (2)
PM         Gareth (1)
PM         InOBU (4)
PM         Joe Offer (10)
PM         katlaughing (2)
PM         Keith A of Hertford (5)
PM         Leadfingers (1)
PM         McGrath of Harlow (6)
PM         mg (2)
PM         skarpi (2)
PM         Teribus (1)
PM         The Pooka (5)

I will do all I can to put an end to this I am not a liar.

Subject: RE: BS: The Irish Peace Process
From: greg stephens
Date: 18 Mar 09 - 01:25 PM

Well, Victor, have you had a PM from Ireland or haven't you? What's going on? I suspect someone is having you both on.

Subject: RE: BS: The Irish Peace Process
From: GUEST,lox
Date: 18 Mar 09 - 01:56 PM

or the rest of us ...

Irelands response is wide open.

Till proved otherwise I will assume he/she has nothing to hide.

Subject: RE: BS: The Irish Peace Process
From: Ireland
Date: 18 Mar 09 - 02:36 PM

I honestly believe this person has no idea what is going on, I think someone who got scalped by Big Mick at the weekend for their intimidation is trying to get their own back.

---

I checked, and I see no reason to think Ireland is not telling the truth. Victor, if you have a complaint, please contact me by e-mail.
This ends the public discussion of personal messages and questioned identity. If you have anything else to say about this, please contact me or Big Mick.
Now, back to discussion of the Irish Peace Process.
-Joe Offer-
[e-mail]

Subject: RE: BS: The Irish Peace Process
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 18 Mar 09 - 05:44 PM

Victor, if you are through trying to discredit Ireland, I would be interested in your opinion of my reply to your first post here.
Did I clear up any of your concerns?
Which remain?

Subject: RE: BS: The Irish Peace Process
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 18 Mar 09 - 05:48 PM

Any views on Obama's "they judge progress by what you build and not what you tear down" ?

Subject: RE: BS: The Irish Peace Process
From: GUEST,lox
Date: 18 Mar 09 - 06:49 PM

As with much of what emanates from the mouths of politicians it is wonderfully vague ... some political leaders are famous for tearing down beautiful artefacts and replacing them with monuments to bureaucracy and tyranny ... in the name of progress.

However all joking aside, I do respect and appreciate his apparent show of support and respect for the peace process and of the desires of peaceful progressive Northern Irish people regardless of their religious, cultural or political affiliations.

Subject: RE: BS: The Irish Peace Process
From: Ireland
Date: 18 Mar 09 - 07:05 PM

"Someone once told me, you should explain all reasoning's (preferably with truth) as it helps the end reader to better judge and understand the situation. It also makes it easier to understand the logic and arrive at their own conclusion.

Always & no matter the case, include both sides of the story to balance things out. Your post should always be written from a neutral point of view. "

Pity the original poster did not have the spherical fortitude to live up to the standards they place on others.

That is the reason Ireland is in the way it is.

Subject: RE: BS: The Irish Peace Process
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 18 Mar 09 - 07:07 PM

""Any views on Obama's "they judge progress by what you build and not what you tear down" ?""

Now that seems to me a more useful response than just another in a long list of formal condemnations.

His take on the response of the people is in accord with mine, as posted above.

Somehow, by praising the positive response, rather than condemning the negative act, he adds to the feeling of optimism I have about this affair.

This has also been the first occasion when those who stll keep their weapons could have decided to use them. The fact that they promptly indicated their refusal to do so bodes well for the future.

Teribus, with reference to your PM, I am puzzled as to why you chose not to post it for others to discuss, since it seemed pertinent to the ongoing debate.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: The Irish Peace Process
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 18 Mar 09 - 07:08 PM

Subject: RE: BS: The Irish Peace Process
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 19 Mar 09 - 08:17 AM

Hilary Clinton has given her opinion of the murders.
"The recent attacks which killed two British soldiers and a police officer are an affront to the values of every community, every ethnicity, every religion and every nation that seeks peace," she added.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/northern_ireland/foyle_and_west/7946993.stm

Subject: RE: BS: The Irish Peace Process
From: The Sandman
Date: 22 Mar 09 - 06:22 PM

Jamie,you are misinformed,certain sections of the loyalist community want them there.
the problem lies in trying to persuade both communities in the north that they can peacably coexist,as people do south of the border,
progress was being made,but killing British soldiers is only counter productive,which is why Adams and Mcguinness and the Republican leadership have condemned the killings.

Subject: RE: BS: The Irish Peace Process
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 23 Mar 09 - 05:13 AM

The policeman was just a policeman answering a call for help.
Why did he have to die?
The soldiers were not part of an occupying army.
There are no army patrols in N.I. even now.
They would gave been away to Afghanistan in a few hours.

There are baracks all over this and every other country.
Why did these young sappers have to die?

Subject: RE: BS: The Irish Peace Process
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 23 Mar 09 - 05:42 AM

One of the men being held in connection with the murder of the policeman is on hunger strike.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/northern_ireland/7957033.stm

Subject: RE: BS: The Irish Peace Process
From: DougR
Date: 23 Mar 09 - 01:48 PM

It's too bad Obama is occupied with things like a poisoned economy, a couple of wars, and scheduling TV appearances and town hall meetings. If not, he could probably settle all the "troubles" with a single speech at high noon in Belfast.

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: The Irish Peace Process
From: Big Mick
Date: 23 Mar 09 - 01:52 PM

An economy poisoned by your heroes, a couple of wars started by your heroes, and trying to restore confidence to the American public after it was so heavily damaged by your heroes, Doug. But don't worry, Douggie lad, he is up to it.

Now let's stop trying to hijack threads, Doug. That is commonly called trolling, and you just did that. Start another if you feel the need, but leave this one to the topic. There's a nice old boy!!!

Mick

Subject: RE: BS: The Irish Peace Process
From: DougR
Date: 23 Mar 09 - 02:09 PM

Thank you Mick. I am unabashedly contrite. You scold almost as skillfully as you insult.

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: The Irish Peace Process
From: Sawzaw
Date: 24 Mar 09 - 12:12 AM

Irish Peace Process?

Isn't that an Oxymoron like Military Intelligence? ;D

Subject: RE: BS: The Irish Peace Process
From: GUEST,lox
Date: 24 Mar 09 - 08:59 AM

no

Subject: RE: BS: The Irish Peace Process
From: Nickhere
Date: 31 Mar 09 - 07:31 PM

"Loyalists making it very clear that the guns will NOT be used in retaliation, and that they, like the Republicans, are committed to the political process.

Peace
Don T"

Rather 'generous' of those loyalists, eh? But if they were really committed to the political process they wouldn't HAVE any guns to make such 'magnanimous' gestures with, would they?
There was a lot of hullabaloo about republicans decommissioning over the last years, yet we still have two loyalist groups (certainly one at least whatever rumblings the other made) holding onto their arsenals, despite a string of murders - still unsolved, over the same time frame, and no real pressure for them to disarm. If loyalists can argue they are hanging onto their guns because they fear a resurgent IRA then dissident republicans could argue they are hanging onto theirs in the event of a resurgent crooked security force. But then neither of them would be committed to peaceful political means which seem to be the only long-term way out for N.I

Subject: RE: BS: The Irish Peace Process
From: Teribus
Date: 01 Apr 09 - 01:14 AM

Big difference in your comparison Nickhere:

- The "Loyalist" groups are on and holding to a "ceasefire"

- The dissident Republican Groups are not

Subject: RE: BS: The Irish Peace Process
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 01 Apr 09 - 05:57 AM

""Rather 'generous' of those loyalists, eh? But if they were really committed to the political process they wouldn't HAVE any guns to make such 'magnanimous' gestures with, would they?""

The point of my comment Nick, was that as little as five years ago, the response WOULD have been instant, and LETHAL.

In this instance, the people with guns (the only ones capable of immediate retaliation) DID NOT USE THEM.

Whether they should HAVE those guns is an entirely separate matter.

The dissidents have guns also, and USED them to great effect, as far as hitting their victims is concerned, but their actions were a TOTAL failure in terms of the response they hoped to provoke.

Which side then deserves credit for their commitment to the peace process?

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: The Irish Peace Process
From: Big Mick
Date: 01 Apr 09 - 10:34 AM

What a load of bollocks!! You are apologists, and hypocritical in your alibi'ing the Loyalist thugs. There is NO justification for their holding on to their arms, other than they expect to use them at some point. Your biases and hypocrisy show you for what you are.

Subject: RE: BS: The Irish Peace Process
From: Teribus
Date: 01 Apr 09 - 12:29 PM

Big Mick can you point to anything in my last post that was not true.

If it is true then a plain statement of the truth cannot be described as being hypocritical can it.

But just so as you have the whole picture:

"If loyalists can argue they are hanging onto their guns because they fear a resurgent IRA then dissident republicans could argue they are hanging onto theirs in the event of a resurgent crooked security force. But then neither of them would be committed to peaceful political means which seem to be the only long-term way out for N.I" - Nickhere

My response to Nickhere:

"Big difference in your comparison Nickhere:

- The "Loyalist" groups are on and holding to a "ceasefire" (FACT)

- The dissident Republican Groups are not" (FACT)

Subject: RE: BS: The Irish Peace Process
From: Big Mick
Date: 01 Apr 09 - 12:45 PM

Don't make me go back and pull up your posts about the IRA decommissioning of arms. Secondarily, peace came because of the committment of Republicans to the process, in spite of Loyalist provocations that are too numerous to list. Thirdly, the dissident groups are just that and they are small in number.

Finally, your post and subsequent justification post show you for what you are. There is no need of arms on the part of the Loyalists if they buy into the peace process. They would leave the capture and punishment of the dissidents to the legally constituted police force and the army. You are a hypocrite. You criticize the Republicans for wanting to remain armed to protect their constituencies, and seek to justify the same acts by the Loyalists. It is people like you that have subverted the peace process for years.

I have listened to people of good will continually play the blame game on both sides. Embracing of it is why this is an intractable struggle. The simple fact is that this is all rooted in British Imperialism and colonialism. The Republicans have determined that they had to take the necessary steps to break the cycle. They have decommissioned arms, and embraced the peace process. Time for you to take your meddling, unwanted interference, and hypocrisy, and go home. And time for the Loyalist groups to decommission, and quit preaching a doctrine of hate. The people of the north of Ireland, all the people, deserve that. Fight - yes, but at the ballot box.

Subject: RE: BS: The Irish Peace Process
From: MartinRyan
Date: 01 Apr 09 - 02:12 PM

It's very simple, if rather depressing, really. Violent Irish nationalism runs on a cycle of about 25 - 30 years i.e. is generational. It survives because of the underlying refusal of a significant proportion of Irish people (and of the diaspora) to accept that anything other than violence will achieve Irish "unity". Mere "peace" is no substitute for them. The centenary of 1916 may distort the sequence somewhat.

Mar aon le sin, ar ndóigh, tá baint idir an dearcadh céanna agus dearcadh na nGael ar a dteanga féin. Caitheann mór chuid daoine (droch-) Gaeilge mar sórt suaitheantas - ní mór dóibh é a úsáid chun bheith Gaelach, dar leo féin. Fhad is a leanann na "triobóidí", leanfaidh an "Gaeilge". Ar ndóigh, is fiú níos mó ná sin í.

I despair.

Regards

Subject: RE: BS: The Irish Peace Process
From: Teribus
Date: 01 Apr 09 - 05:20 PM

The "Loyalist" groups are on and holding to a "ceasefire" (FACT)

The dissident Republican Groups are not" (FACT)

Don't think you actually addressed that in your tirade there Big Mick.

Now come on break with tradition admit it what is stated above there is perfectly true. Or do we have to wait until "the dissident groups are just that and they are small in number" get one of their 300lb car bombs to go off - last successful one was Omagh wasn't it?? And then Big Mick you'll still find excuses for them?

Subject: RE: BS: The Irish Peace Process
From: Lox
Date: 01 Apr 09 - 06:13 PM

The "dissident republican groups" didn't sign up to a cease fire.

They didn't exist until they broke away from the main body of republicans who are still abiding by the ceasefire they signed up to.

In terms of legitimate representation, the republicans are still adhering to the ceasefire.

The dissidents are not representative of republicans - sinn fein are - how do we know? republicans voted for them.

The dissidents represent themselves.

The republicans have decommissioned their arms.

Subject: RE: BS: The Irish Peace Process
From: Lox
Date: 01 Apr 09 - 06:41 PM

"It survives because of the underlying refusal of a significant proportion of Irish people (and of the diaspora) to accept that anything other than violence will achieve Irish "unity""

It survives because of long term collective psychological damage caused by generations of violence and murder.

Subject: RE: BS: The Irish Peace Process
From: Lox
Date: 01 Apr 09 - 07:24 PM

"They didn't exist until they broke away from the main body of republicans who are still abiding by the ceasefire they signed up to."


To be a bit more accurate, the above should say;

these groups didn't form until after the republicans agreed up to a ceasefire.

Saying they broke away suggests division amongst republicans - which is not there as republicans are united in their position that they are not associated with these thugs.

Subject: RE: BS: The Irish Peace Process
From: Big Mick
Date: 01 Apr 09 - 09:06 PM

Very weak response from a hypocritical apologist who conveniently ignored the central point. If the Loyalists really were buying into the Peace process, they would decommission there arms, put them beyond reach (as the Republicans have), and allow the LEGALLY CONSTITUTED police force and army to hold those that violate the law responsible for their actions.

Hypocrisy and bigotry.

Mick

Subject: RE: BS: The Irish Peace Process
From: Teribus
Date: 02 Apr 09 - 01:17 AM

Couldn't agree more Big Mick, so when Duffy & Co are brought before the courts there will be no witness intimidation. And the murderers of Robert McCartney and Paul Quinn will likewise be turned in to allow the LEGALLY CONSTITUTED police force to hold those that violate the law responsible for their actions. For some reason I don't think any of that is ging to happen. Duffy will be condemned on forensic evidence the murderers of Paul Quinn and Robert mcCartney will walk free, odd in the latter case as the PIRA offered to shoot them, so they must be known. As you say Big Mick - Hipocrisy and bigotry.

Lox IIRC the "split" in Republican ranks occurred in 1998. At that time the PIRA had neither handed in their weapons or put them beyond use. The man who leads the RIRA was a PIRA Quarter Master the materials for the Omagh bomb came from PIRA stocks as do the rest of the RIRA and CIRA arms.

As to the arguement that Republican groups holding a ceasefire count while the dissidents can be discounted as being representative. Exactly the same could have been said about the PIRA back in 1972.

And by all means Big Mick go back and pull some of my old posts and find one where I condone, support or attempt to justify any Loyalist, or indeed any paramilitary group in Ireland. Go even further try and find a single post of mine where I condone, support or attempt to justify the actions of any terrorist group.

As for "Time for you to take your meddling, unwanted interference, and hypocrisy, and go home." Whether you like it or not the area of the island of Ireland known as Northern Ireland IS PART of the United Kingdom of Great Brtain and Northern Ireland, by the will and desire of the majority of the people of that province. Don't you dare presume to tell me where I can and where I cannot go within the borders of my own country. And it is you and the likes of you across there in the USA who Stan Rogers described as "kindred in nothing but name" should take your own advice and "take your meddling, unwanted interference, and hypocrisy, and go home."

Subject: RE: BS: The Irish Peace Process
From: MartinRyan
Date: 02 Apr 09 - 02:38 AM

lox
__________________________________________________________________
"It survives because of the underlying refusal of a significant proportion of Irish people (and of the diaspora) to accept that anything other than violence will achieve Irish "unity" (me)

"It survives because of long term collective psychological damage caused by generations of violence and murder." (you)
___________________________________________________

Quite.

Regards

Subject: RE: BS: The Irish Peace Process
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 02 Apr 09 - 03:05 AM

I am so tired of the bullshit about the loyalist weapons decomissioning. Start with years of broken promises, violence against protestants that outnumbers violence by Loyalists, repeated attempts like this by Republicans determined to destroy the peace process because they know it represents the end of a status quo which works in their favor, and a Press that refuses to recognize that it is the Loyalist side that is holding the cease fire in the face of repeated provocation. Add in that there was never an agreement to decommission at a specific time by the loyalists.

These are not my words, but Mick's.
I merely transposed the antagonists.

Subject: RE: BS: The Irish Peace Process
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 02 Apr 09 - 03:12 AM

protagonists?

Subject: RE: BS: The Irish Peace Process
From: MartinRyan
Date: 02 Apr 09 - 03:23 AM

protagonist/antagonist

There's a pair of them in it! Or, as we Irish say - "Ayther will do!"

Regards

Subject: RE: BS: The Irish Peace Process
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 02 Apr 09 - 04:37 PM

Can you not see that you are becoming an apolgist yourself, Mick? There is NO excuse for the Republican return to gun barrel politics. Isn't it about time these thugs allowed the LEGALY CONSTITUTED (your words not mine) government of Northern Ireland govern in peace?

Surely you are not saying that the fact that some Loyalists hold weapons is a reason for a return to the shootings and bombings. Are you? If not, why mention it at all? Particularly seeing as the allegedly armed Loyalists have not, as has been pointed out, used those weapons to damage the LEGALY CONSTITUTED police force? What are the dissident Republicans hoping to achieve? Goad the Loyalists into retaliation? Well, it doesn't seem to be working does it. If it does then, and only then, will the Loyalaists be equaly wrong; but as yet the only ones doing ANY harm to the peace process with their store of guns are those allegedy on the Republican side. And the only apologists for those seem to be from the other side of the Atlantic.

Sorry, Mick. I usualy admire your words and you have, as you know, swayed my opinion on occasion. But this is hypocracy and bigotry indeed.

DeG

Subject: RE: BS: The Irish Peace Process
From: Ireland
Date: 02 Apr 09 - 10:24 PM

The amount of inaccuracies that Mick has put down here shows his own bigotry.

If instead of listening to secondhand tainted news, you got it first hand that bigotry might not exist.

The holding of weapons by loyalists are not a threat, if you had seen the rally or been there in Belfast when both sides of the divide basically had a love fest to ensure everyone that no loyalist retaliations would occur,you would realise that.

Loyalist do not want to take on any republican group, simply because they would get their heads handed to them from all sides of the communities here,they will not nor do not seem to have the will to fight. They did not get rid off the hardliners for no reason I am talking mad dog,Shoukri etc.

You make mention of LEGALLY CONSTITUTED police force and army, again you show an ignorance of the subject you comment on.

No one wants the army on the streets of N.Ireland, not legally constituted nor private or dissident, people who know what goes on here would know that. Look at he uproar when Orde wanted the special forces brought in according to you those objecting would not have a foot to stand on,LEGALLY CONSTITUTED and all that.


As for loyalist provocation do please mention a few, try to link them to the murders, try to link them to the recent rioting and try to link them to the idiotic hijacking,burnings,and the great act of making an innocent man drive his bus loaded with explosives to a police station. http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/northern_ireland/1627502.stm

Once you do all that Mick, explain why the dissidents are causing all the trouble mainly in nat\rep areas of Belfast.

Is it because the LEGALLY CONSTITUTED police force you cite arrested Duffy and others who they charged with the murder of the policeman and the soldiers,some do not want to abide by the law and again they are the people your defending .

BTW that LEGALLY CONSTITUTED Army,RIR,had a home coming parade,at which Duffy was in charge of a section of those involved in a counter demonstration, that is known dissidents and ex IRA worked hand in hand that day joking and laughing with each other not much sign of a split there.

Would such double standards not justify the loyalists,in their eyes, holding onto their weapons. Simply put there was no gulf between the various IRA's on that day, see any hypocrisy here.

Let me point out another, HolyCross, we have quite rightly the condemnation of the Holycross "demonstration" by loyalist's. But little uproar at the leaving of a hijacked vehicle at the gates of the same school.

Mick your defending or making excuse's for the very people who are revisiting the "troubles" on their own community, god help us if these fellows you hold in some esteem try the same with the union\loyalist community.

The truth about us is nothing to do with simplistic English imperialism bs, it is pure hypocrisy and self interest from all sides and the willingness of idiots to be easily lead from the first time anyone stepped foot on Ireland until now.

Subject: RE: BS: The Irish Peace Process
From: GUEST,lox
Date: 03 Apr 09 - 09:41 AM

How is it not hypocritical for loyalists to demand that nationalists disarm and then not to do so themselves?

The difference between Pira in 1972 and Rira today is that Pira had the sympathy of many republicans and the understanding of many republican sympathizers so they were able to Infer a sense of legitimacy. The other difference was that as a result of the old systems, loyalists effectively had a monopoly on local government and public services which meant that republicans were effectively unrepresented, except by impotent politicians and terrorists.

Today the context is radically different. Republicans are represented proportionately in government and much better in public services while the employment demographic has also improved drastically.

Republicans today don't have sympathy with Rira any more than most Brits have sympathy for the BNP.

Rira don't represent republicans in the north, they represent themselves.

There are shitbags in ebery community and they will use the history of the troubkes as an excuse to indulge their perversions.

The best way to keep the rest of safe is to make sure that none of them, natonalist or loyalist, have guns.

Subject: RE: BS: The Irish Peace Process
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 03 Apr 09 - 09:51 AM

Well put as ever Lox.
Dave gnomo and I both wrote to our MPs on the issue of Loyalist weapons some time ago at the request of contributors to a discussion here.

Subject: RE: BS: The Irish Peace Process
From: GUEST,lox
Date: 03 Apr 09 - 01:17 PM

No, not the whole community.

They spoke for themselves at the ballot box and their chosen representatives have spoken for them on TV.


But lets examine this in a bit more depth.

I'm Irish, from the republic of Ireland, born in the Combe in Dublin, and my parents were both republicans.

I personally think that Ireland should be united.


So ... I'm Irish ... and I believe in a united Ireland.

That would make me ... erm ... an Irish republican.

I speak for myself.

So I certainly speak for one.

Which is as many as any other unelected representative speaks for.

So I speak for them as much as you or RIRA do Dion.

Best to remember that.

Subject: RE: BS: The Irish Peace Process
From: GUEST,Keith A o Hertford
Date: 03 Apr 09 - 02:33 PM

I hope the mods leave Dion's contribution in place.
It shows what nice people they are.
Some people in Republican areas have had bullets fired through their knee and ankle joints in the last few days.
Dion approves of that.
If the likes of him ever gain power, people will look back on British rule as golden days.

Subject: RE: BS: The Irish Peace Process
From: Nickhere
Date: 03 Apr 09 - 03:14 PM

Teribus, it depends on what you mean by ceasefire. There have been a string of murders plus some violent feuding between loyalist gangs that has quietened down over the last few years if you'll recall the TV and news of about 2004 / 5. Now even at that time there wasn't much call in the media for loyalists to disarm. It seemed once republicans had decommissioned no-one else was expected really to follow suite. The implication is that republicans alone have been responsible for the mess and once their guns were silent, that was that. the stats tell a different story. In media reports and headlines republicans have at times been accused of being responsible for almost the total of the north's death toll. At best they were accused of little over half of it. But there are reliable figures that demonstrate that all republican paramilitaries between them have been responsible for about 1,700 deaths, while Loyalists have been responsible for about 800. The security forces have been responsible for the remainder (about 1,000) but you must remember that includes the RUC and UDR both of which at times housed loyalists able to kill under cloak of legality, plus the issue of collusion of course.

It also seems to be regularly forgotten that it was unionists - not republicans - who introduced the gun into 20th cent Ireland. They staged an armed coup d'etat in 1912 which didn't become an actual bloodbath because the British government backed down in the face of the threat and British army officers threatened mutiny if obliged to quell any rebellion. And what were they objecting to? Home Rule as part of the Empiah, not even independence.

Republicans saw how the gun could be effective and formed the IVF - the forerunner to the IRA - in 1913. They were accused of getting help from Britain's enemy - Germany - during WW1 but ironically it had been Austria - Germany's main ally - that had supplied the UVF's guns in 1912.

My point stands - Loyalists who hang onto their guns - just as dissident republicans - do so in the expectation of using them at some point: why else would you keep them except as 'insurance' (or perhaps to enforce the UVF's and UDA's drug dealing). If they were committed to peace they'd have consigned the guns to he dust bin when the main body of republicans did. Instead it seems to be the case with loyalists 'first in, last out'

Subject: RE: BS: The Irish Peace Process
From: Ireland
Date: 03 Apr 09 - 06:47 PM

No one is defending private armies of any kind especially loyalist, the claim that there has been no calling for their disarming is a complete falsehood.Sanctions have been taken against loyalist because they did not disarm, lets get the real story here.

We have various political talkshows and there has never been a time that disarming of loyalist has not been called for,no political argument concerning the various groups could have been held without the condemnation of loyalists for not disarming.

The internal power struggle within the loyalist groups is the more reasonable reason for them holding onto arms and of course those who deal drugs along with wanting to screw more concessions from the government like SF\IRA did.

To give the idea that loyalist holding onto arms is beneficial to anyone in the greater community is absolutely pathetic and dishonest no one in Ireland wants loyalists to have weapons.

We have to acknowledge that their refusal to use the weapons deserves some recognition even their old adversary the IRA has applauded the loyalists for their restraint and what do we read here, shows how some people want to play the old what about them card.

"But there are reliable figures that demonstrate that all republican paramilitaries between them have been responsible for about 1,700 deaths, while Loyalists have been responsible for about 800. The security forces have been responsible for the remainder (about 1,000) but you must remember that includes the RUC and UDR both of which at times housed loyalists able to kill under cloak of legality, plus the issue of collusion of course."

To paraphrase Mick,what utter bollocks. Not to the figures but this lumping the loyalist murders in with the security forces as if they were hand in hand.

Words like dirty tricks and collusion have been used during the fight against the IRA, there is no bigger dirty trick than slaughtering twins in their mothers womb, remember Omagh,no dirtier trick than blocking all exits in a hotel and pouring petrol all over the place to roast their victims to death, my brother being a victim of such tricks, remember La Mon.

As for the stats, what has been glossed over is, out off the 1700 IRA\rep slayings the vast majority of those slain were Catholics,the IRA murdered the very people they say they were protecting.

Now look at what is happening with the dissidents,they are oppressing the very community they come from,and what do we read here, why has the loyalists not decommissioned?

Could this be due to the fact that loyalist are not getting involved that there is a need to implicate them any way people can in order to justify their own ignorance and bigotry.

AS for the stats read them here make up your own mind:
http://www.wesleyjohnston.com/users/ireland/past/troubles/troubles_stats.html#statusperpetrator


I will not comment on the one sided history lesson, suffice to say come on who are you trying to fool.

Subject: RE: BS: The Irish Peace Process
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 03 Apr 09 - 06:55 PM

I find the veiled threats that Dion is making quite appaling and hope that the moderators act accordingly. Even if they do sympathise.

DeG

Subject: RE: BS: The Irish Peace Process
From: Ireland
Date: 03 Apr 09 - 06:58 PM

"It's better than an OBE. One Behind the Ear."

Are you prepared to abide by the same kind of law if you cross the line? Say not having a car license,what would it be a broken arm or leg, what would your tariffs be?

Subject: RE: BS: The Irish Peace Process
From: Ireland
Date: 03 Apr 09 - 08:48 PM

You're now applying a hierarchy to republicanism unless your from the six counties you will never know our struggle.

So much for a United Ireland,here we see an example of the type of great thinkers that kept the nonsense going down the years.

1% thats all of the population that supports the political wing of the dissidents,who exactly are they talking for.

Just as the bullet will not keep N.Ireland British it will never make it United, people are shooting themselves in their own feet here.

Wake up to it.

Subject: RE: BS: The Irish Peace Process
From: Nickhere
Date: 03 Apr 09 - 09:48 PM

Well Ireland, I AM sorry to hear about your loss, of course that makes the issue personal for you.

But I'll try and deal with some of the points you made. Firstly, I don't know if the comment was aimed at me, but I was certainly not suggesting that loyalists hanging onto their weapons was beneficial to anyone, rather the opposite.

(2) Yes, there was some talk of withholding funding from loyalist groups that had broken their own proclaimed ceasefire by engaging in murder and racketeering etc., But they still have their arms and the story is hardly covered by the media - quite unlike the situation that obtained up to the PIRA decommissioning.

(3) Stats - The PIRA killed mainly catholics? Maybe. The UVF and UDA certainly did, as the vast majority of their victims were killed for sectarian reasons - i.e simply because they were catholic. By contrast 132 or so of republican victims (i.e killed by one of the various republican paramilitaries) were killed because they were protestant alone. These figures have been carefully researched (not by me) and published for anyone who wants to check them. The book is called "An Index of Deaths in the Northern Ireland Conflict 1969 - 1993" Obviously it doesn't include the last few killed after that date, but otherwise it's pretty comprehensive. It includes religion, political affiliation (if any / if known), date and place and manner of death, group responsible etc., for each victim.

Added to that, I hope you also accept your statement that the vast majority of the IRA's victims were Catholic will knock on the head frequent loyalist claims that the IRA were sectarian. It's an odd form of sectarianism to 'kill your own'

(4) Lumping loyalist murders in with security forces is not that far-fetched. The security forces were well-known for being sectarian up to recent times, and the issue of collusion is no longer a theory. Obviously not all killings by security forces can be described as loyalist murders - for example the fatal ambush by SAS of PIRA at Loughgall - but there are many other cases where the issue is far less clear.

(5) "There is no dirtier trick than...." Woah! Don't get me started here!!! There are lots of dirty tricks, for example killing people with thousands of razor cuts (The loyalist Shankill Butchers), slaughtering innocent people enjoying a drink in a bar (The Droppin' Well Pub bomb - planted by loyalists), incinerating scores of innocent shoppers (Dublin and Monaghan) etc., etc., Neither side are saints here.

But for me the worst dirty trick was all the propaganda, the distortion of the truth - from both sides, but the British side had far greater resources and power - that kept people at each other's throats the last 30 years. The British Tabloid papers with their total disregard for objectivity and hate-stoking rhetoric, MPs that did not care or want to resolve what was happening. Some of the papers and politicians south of the border were not much better either.

(6) By the way, in case you are getting me wrong here, I'm not trying to say that violence is the way forward or that I would like to see more of it. I originally just wanted to comment on the idea - not mine, but introduced by someone else - that loyalists were being 'restrained' and 'showing maturity' (I'm not quoting, I'm paraphrasing) by not using their guns - guns which in my opinion they shouldn't have if they are as committed to peace and democracy as is being claimed here. As has been pointed out the vast majority of republicans have given up their guns and shown their commitment to the political / democratic route, unlike most of their loyalist counterparts. Loyalists like to make out their violence is only ever a 'response' to republican violence. But the IRA was practically moribund when the Malvern street murders happened in 1966 or the Shankill Butchers were at work in their early days. Neither were the civil rights protestors asking for independence at the start - just to be treated as equal citizens of the northern statelet, for which crime they were met with loyalist baseball bats, bricks as well as police batons.

But just to reiterate - I'm not condoning the dissident republicans either.

(7) Earlier Irish history... don't get me started!

Subject: RE: BS: The Irish Peace Process
From: Nickhere
Date: 03 Apr 09 - 09:59 PM

Correction - that should have been McGurk's Bar, of course

Subject: RE: BS: The Irish Peace Process
From: Teribus
Date: 04 Apr 09 - 06:01 AM

Guest Dion omits to mention a few other celebrated instances of "justice" IRA style post GFA:

- Robert McCartney was found guilty and executed for what Guest Dion? Making a casual remark that somebody's girlfriend took exception to, unfortunately the company was IRA and the sentence was death with the whole neighbourhood told in no uncertain terms to keep their mouths shut - many in the neighbourhood had children didn't they Guest Dion, were they used as incentive for the degree of co-operation required?

- Paul Quinn was accused and found guilty in absentia of dipping into some sort of cross-border scam that was deemed to be the preserve of the local PIRA, or members of their families. Lured to a meeting with friends whose own lives were under threat if they didn't co-operate, justice was meted out by, what was it nine men with iron bars, who literally battered Paul Quinn to death breaking every single bone in his body.

Great "justice" system you've got there Guest Dion. How it is that the entire population of Ireland haven't risen up and shopped the whole bloody lot of you I'll never know. Collectively they're a waste of space that use up far too much oxygen that could be better used by others.

Subject: RE: BS: The Irish Peace Process
From: Lox
Date: 04 Apr 09 - 10:33 AM

Wow - some pretty snidy comments being thrown around here.

Who cares about the ordinary working Irish man?

Sounds like some are more interested in their ego and sense of self importance.

Some are just plain wrong.

Pira aren't elected yet Dion.

And you certainly aren't.

Till then they and you have no mandate.


Just so happens by the way that I am a Collins man and not a Dev man.

But Dion, they lived in a different reality. There is no comparison between the quality of life then and the quality of life now.

The economic problems happening in Ireland today are part of a global recession. We aren't being sucked dry by "the Brits" the way we were back then.

Our problems aren't the result of an occupation any more.

Politically, the issues we face are to do with finding solutions to differences between loyalists and republicans.

But now you're going on about "freestaters", are you trying to whip up another civil war amongst your own?


The Irish civil war was the most shameful event in our history.

Enough blood was spilt then to last for the duration of Irish history past and Irish history to come.


Irish culture is made great by thinkers and peaceful men.

People like Oscar Wilde, Brendan Behan, Dan O'Connell, Yeats, Joyce, O'Connor, etc etc etc.


It is also made great by our history of never invading another country, making slaves of another nation and being known all over the world as both the best of hosts and the best of guests.

When we go abroad, to rugby matches, football matches or just to wedding holidays or to find work, we are remembered afterwards as warm genuine fun and often wise.

We have a great tradition of music, art, and literature.

Our heros, Pearce, Connolly et al are known in Ireland and all over the world as great heroes because they sacrificed themselves first, by leading from the front. They were not bullies and they did not put the lives of ordinary people at risk and that is why they were heroes.

They also had a clearly recognizable enemy.

Again, circumstances are Completely different today.



Dion, the world is full of different people with different priorities and points of view.

People either learn to find solutions to their problems by communicating or they continue an eternal cycle of killing death and misery.

Pira sentences the children of Ireland to a life of grief and fear by keeping the violence going.

Bullets in ankles, in knees and OBE's as you call them, are trademarks a type of thinking that has nothing to do with the culture of sweet beautiful Ireland.

The kind of justice of which you speak is on a par with the kind of justice meted out by lynch mobs in the southern states of the USA before civil rights put an end to it.

And I though the IRA were defenders of civil rights!!!


I have children Dion, and they like me will be proud to be Irish and will want our Island one day to be a Peaceful republic.

And despite the obstacles placed in our way, by the likes of Pira as much as anyone else - Our Day Will Come!

Subject: RE: BS: The Irish Peace Process
From: Ireland
Date: 04 Apr 09 - 11:03 AM

First let me clear one thing up, I did not make it clear that my brother survived, I am sorry for that,he did loose many friends though. Please excuse my error.

I will try to deal with the funding issues and hopefully you will see I have no truck with either side, I see warts and all.

This link will show how close to real trouble N.Ireland has been, and maybe give an indication to the "maturity" shown by the loyalists leaders. These idiots were shooting at PSNI just over a year ago for goodness sake.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/2007/jul/29/uk.northernireland

One point though, the Gov was stuck between a rock and a hard place, people in Belfast,both sides,needed their areas refurbished, in all senses of the word.The nat\rep side was getting this help, the union\loyalist was but not at the same rate. This was causing problems among the hardliners, to settle that down more funding had to be released, no matter if loyalists held weapons or not.

As I said before, the holding on of weapons has little to do with wanting to attack the IRA's, or it would have happened by now, it is to keep power within it own organisation.

When we get more normalised as a society people will drift out of the loyalist groups, as there will be no need for them to be there, eventually the weapons will be left to rust.

I still say they deserve some recognition for the restraint they have shown, considering the show of willingness to use weapons as little as over a year ago. (news report)

Most importantly you have to remember that SF\IRA have praised the loyalists, they see no real risk to peace, if there was they would have retaliated by now.

"But they still have their arms and the story is hardly covered by the media - quite unlike the situation that obtained up to the PIRA decommissioning."

The media covering of the IRA's decommissioning was more news worthy than loyalists for the simple reason no IRA no need for any loyalist groups to "defend" their community against them.

In real terms peace was never the gift of the loyalists to give, it was the IRA's and that loyalists holding onto their weapons,as it has been shown, did not affect the peace in any way.

"Added to that, I hope you also accept your statement that the vast majority of the IRA's victims were Catholic will knock on the head frequent loyalist claims that the IRA were sectarian. It's an odd form of sectarianism to 'kill your own'"

I must say your statement implies I am some sort of loyalist terrorist supporter. I never inferred the murders were sectarian,I pointed out the IRA and their supporters or apologists do not have a foot to stand on when they whinge about catholic murders, as they were the responsible for the highest proportion of them.

Placing a name on these murders make them no less vile, killing for sectarian reasons or for the "cause" makes no difference to the victims or their families. So lets look at the murders as a human rights issue and the IRA denied more people of the basic human right, to life, than all the rest combined.

Also what has been shown over the years violence will never achieve a United Ireland.

"The security forces were well-known for being sectarian up to recent times,"

Again we have this sectarian label, I wonder who it was that put the loyalists and nat\rep terrorists behind bars, and believe me they went after the loyalist with more zeal.

You fail to mention the deaths caused by collusion of the Gardi and the IRA, would all Gards be IRA sympathisers?

Lets look at this in context of fighting a war,after all that is what the IRA call's the last 30 or more years. Name me a country that has not deployed double agents, infiltrators, used shady elements to carryout some acts against their enemy?

A bit of childishness is being displayed on this issue the IRA used dirty trick but faced with their own medicine they cry foul.

I am not defending the use of such tactics but can understand it, if we look at the IRA's involvement during WW2 they adopted the my enemy of my enemy is my friend,so they assisted the Nazi's during the war and after it.

Would the use of loyalist terrorists,who hate the IRA, be so wrong, and given the IRA's claims of being an army why whinge at having such tactics used against them?

If we use the same reasoning as you," It's an odd form of sectarianism to 'kill your own'", over the years would the Catholic Chief Constable's and senior policemen be implicit in sectarian killings? Who has the moral high ground? neither is my answer.

"fatal ambush by SAS of PIRA at Loughgall" would you prefer that the IRA had bulldosed the gate and slaughtered those inside the police station?

Just as the IRA saw the security forces as the enemy and exercised a ruthless murder campaign against them, do they have any right to expect different treatment and if so why? Are they not soldiers in an active army.

At least the were given some chance to defend themselves, a well known ex terrorist walks the shopping mall where he slaughtered an off duty soldier in front of his family, calmly walked away to take his family to the park. That is known fact, I will not name the terrorist.

"The loyalist Shankill Butchers" why do you put the label loyalist, is it an attempt to justify the IRA's existence or are you saying all people who hold the opposite view to IRA supproters are in support of the likes of the butchers?

These peoples actions were reviled by all right thinking people in N.Ireland on both sides, they are no ones heroes. They took advantage of the times to commit their murders, I hope they roast in hell.

We can give counters to every atrocity we care to mention that's the very nature of N.Ireland politics there is no winners in such debates, all that happens is people dig in to their deep held prejudices and justify them in their own minds.

You want to talk about propaganda, the IRA had the best propaganda machine ever, the BBC, follow this link http://news.bbc.co.uk/panorama/hi/front_page/newsid_7968000/7968671.stm

Look through the videos and tell me no propaganda was at work by nat\rep. Especially the women claiming there was no IRA nor weapons in the Divis Flats and that the Gov. was using the IRA as an excuse to attack poor catholics.

The best video is the initial one it shows Ian Paisley in his early days with his American accent, listen to the tone of the reporter, the IRA's cause has been well and truly represented in the media.

"Loyalists like to make out their violence is only ever a 'response' to republican violence."

Do we not have ex rep\nat terrorists basically making the same excuse, neither side as I said before has the moral high ground and in making such assertions it gives an insight to how you view terrorist in N.Ireland.

Gusty Spence the man arrested for the Malvern Murders was to give an abject apology, not that it justifies his murders, but he saw the errors of his ways. Go here for an account of that time
http://www.sharedtroubles.net/storydetail.php?story_id=1046

What I say is that we all in N.Ireland have had our lives shaped by prejudices and now we have a chance to shake these prejudices off and that is a threat to dissidents.

Can I ask have you ever setfoot in N.Ireland or lived here?

Subject: RE: BS: The Irish Peace Process
From: Ireland
Date: 04 Apr 09 - 02:57 PM

""The British Army admitted that they could not defeat the IRA. Furthermore they describe the IRA as "a professional, dedicated, highly skilled and resilient force", while loyalist paramilitaries and other republican groups are described as "little more than a collection of gangsters"."

Have people not been saying that wrt loyalists and in particular the present various IRA groups. So are you not stating the obvious?

WRT the statement do not hold all British Army commanders to that statement,wrt the IRA, we have to remember people do get carried away with a bit of melodramatic prose which others would not agree with.

Subject: RE: BS: The Irish Peace Process
From: Nickhere
Date: 04 Apr 09 - 06:51 PM

Thanks for your response Ireland. But also let ME clear up[ a few points too! Namely,

"The media covering of the IRA's decommissioning was more news worthy than loyalists for the simple reason no IRA no need for any loyalist groups to "defend" their community against them"

Though I accept you put the term 'defend' in commas, bear in mind that to begin with it was catholic communities that needed defending from loyalists - as you will recall, those burned out of their homes en masse in the early days of the troubles; in addition the civil rights protestors who were attacked for demanding what we all now take for granted. The IRA was moribund at the time - remember "I Ran Away"?

There was no need for loyalists to defend anything, just a real need for them to be fair and treat their fellow countrymen as human beings. Rather than do this, many decided to attack them instead. Peace could have been had way back then had some people been willing to give the steam off their pee (sorry about the expression, it's just the best metaphor to hand). One can't have it both ways - try to suppress a large part of the population and yet expect a peaceful existence. I'm not trying to excuse the violence that followed BTW, just partly to explain some of it and secondly to state the logic of it.

In my opinion it is this loyalist line that 'we need to defend our communities' that needed to be addressed in the media over the last 30 years. Instead it went practically unchallenged by a media and body politic that was more interested in defeating the IRA than in seeking genuine justice and peace. Both media and body politic IMHO are as guilty of what followed as the actual gunmen.

""fatal ambush by SAS of PIRA at Loughgall" would you prefer that the IRA had bulldosed the gate and slaughtered those inside the police station?"

I dunno how you get that from what I was saying. But let me clarify anyway. No, of course not, I was just saying that to me the ambush was a clear military action by the SAS, and as such couldn't be classified as murder of the kind more frequently carried out by loyalist groups.

Regarding the so-called Republican propaganda machine, yes of course republicans had their propaganda and occasionally their efforts at hyperbole would unmask this rather more clearly as when in one issue of IPRN they described loyalist killers 'intent on wiping out the whole family' rushing past the young daughter in the hallway t shoot her father and brother. But surely if they were intent on wiping out the family...??

But another side of this coin can be found in Liz Curtis' study on the media coverage of Northern Ireland "Truth the first casualty" , the efforts of the FRU and Colin Wallace to put out disinformation etc., Also check out "War and Words: The Northern Ireland Media Reader" edited by Bill Rolston and David Miller. The British government was also VERY active in this area, and thus IMHO helped prolong the conflict as I said above by making it difficult for the average voting mainland Briton to get any real handle on what was happening.

Book links -

War & Words


Sorry, can't find link for Curtis book yet


In answer to your last question, Yes.

BTW - happy to hear your brother survived.

Subject: RE: BS: The Irish Peace Process
From: Nickhere
Date: 04 Apr 09 - 07:05 PM

Irelalnd, I tend to agree with "What I say is that we all in N.Ireland have had our lives shaped by prejudices and now we have a chance to shake these prejudices off and that is a threat to dissidents"

It does show the tensions are still under the surface, ready to flare up quickly. If you want to see the worst of that world, check out this site (I believe we've had some trolls from the past from that site, so feel free to have a look but be wary not to 'draw them on us')

"FAIR"

It is fairly one-sided as I'm sure you'll agree!

There are some on both sides who would like to see the conflict go on for many reasons, including genuine belief in the 'cause' (whatever side they're on); as a cover for more criminal activity; as a defence mechanism - afterall people who've been killers for years have made many enemies and their best chance of staying alive remains the paramilitary structure that protects them.

As long as the current peaceful situation remains there's some hope of a peaceful future. It might take several generations for the bitterness and memories to subside - as they have down south, as the generation involved in the Civil War finally die out and their grandchildren forget or at least feel it less strongly.

But peace must be built on foundations of fairness, inclusiveness and equality as I'm sure you'll agree, or things will end up back where they were.

I still think peace etc., could have been had 35 years ago or more had the political will and simple humanity existed to provide it.

Subject: RE: BS: The Irish Peace Process
From: Ireland
Date: 04 Apr 09 - 10:19 PM

I will never defend Willie Frazer and his supporters but I can understand how they can be the way they are,and that they are just as much victims as anyone is in the land. He has family murdered, some say under suspicious circumstances. He has said that he has no problem with the ordinary Catholic and that he would support them if contacted, do not know how much of that was tongue in cheek though.

"as you will recall, those burned out of their homes en masse in the early days of the troubles; in addition the civil rights protestors who were attacked for demanding what we all now take for granted."

This was not specific to the Catholic community, the Falls had Catholics and the Shankill Protestants who mourned their neighbours getting burnt out of their homes. The "ghettoizing" of those areas by the terrorists groups led to the hard lined attitudes.

After all it does no ones cause any good to have so-called antagonists living peacefully together. The CRM had Protestant members also we need to remember these important details.

"remember "I Ran Away"?" Also remember the border campaign leading up to the 1960's, we are all living under the legacy of one act or another do we let it destroy us or take the real chance of peace and run with it.

I will concede to certain things that contributed to our turmoil but hands have to go up on both sides to enable this peace to grow, honesty is more than just called for it is the bedrock to build the peace on and it cannot be cracked by half truth's from either side.

You cannot say it was solely the loyalists actions that brought about the "troubles", too simplistic and a half truth, the border campaign started why? No murder gangs were running the streets then (in no way am I justifying the murdering scum you talk about) but they were not to blame for starting that failed IRA campaign.

Do we really need to argue the whole bs all over again,our problems stemmed from those who were too easy to be lead by half truth and those who were only too willing to spout those half truths and lead us, and that applies to both sides.

In all your writings on N.Ireland not once have you examined the Republics role and the reason why is known only to you. Suffice for me to say that no one talks about Ireland without having some knowledge of both sides of the borders involvement.

Basically I do not want to go tit for tat and what I am saying is the fault is not all one sided if your a fair minded person you will see there are no innocents and that some people have a reason for the views they had (I am not referring to terrorists acts). Not that they were good enough reasons by to-days standards but is that not the case in all history.

For instance during partition the general opinion was the republic for Catholics and the North for Protestants, a reasonable opinion at that time.

Only problem was that thought was carried out off it's time and built upon by bigots taking advantage of the prejudices carried out by the establishments (Catholic Church)of the Republic. I will not go into the hardships placed upon protestant and mixed marriages etc as I said they were used to stir hatred among the ignorant.

'we need to defend our communities' and our only crime was loyalty and other bs excuses for being in existence. They were seen for what they were excuses.I see very few reports on them because of that nonsense everyone saw through it,these asswipes destroyed communities and only protected their loyalty to the £.

Did you look at the early Panorama reports in the link not much siding with loyalists and that set the trend, I am not really getting your objections and connection to the media etc. Let the fault lie where it truly belongs at the feet of those who carried out terrorists acts and those who lead them. I do not know who was worse those who were easily led or those who done the leading.

"for example the fatal ambush by SAS of PIRA at Loughgall" it was "fatal" ambush that misled me, sorry I am used to the whinge by some at IRA being shot by military.

I am not going to deny the Gov did not use propaganda but question if it was to prolong the troubles,that was an unwanted side effect,too much pain was being caused to want the crap to continue.

What made it hard for the average mainland Briton was that they simply did not want to know, any voting was vetoed by the Unionist block vote, which kept that idiot Paisley in power far far too long.

Hindsight is wonderful, but we should have had Stormont up and running long long ago it would have neutralised that unionist block voting.

Subject: RE: BS: The Irish Peace Process
From: Big Mick
Date: 07 Apr 09 - 11:50 AM

You know, you boyo's are so damned used to twisting the truth, that you cannot even see when you are doing it. No where was I defending the dissidents use of force. I have said many times that I support the peace process, mainly because the people of the North support it. Further, you attempt to twist my words. My comments about the legally constituted law enforcement groups in the North OF Ireland is directed at the Loyalists. I find the idea that decommissioning of arms, placing them beyond use to be a criteria for the Republicans embracing the peace process, but not applying the same to the Loyalists, to be bigoted and hypocritical. It is a simple concept, sauce for the goose is sauce for the gander. Your defending the Loyalists right to keep weapons while insisting the Republicans decommission theirs is proof of your bigotry.

Do not take my lack of response heretofore as any kind of sign. I was simply away for a few days.

Mick

I will give one last warning here. And in this, I am wearing my moderators hat. If there is anything posted further that even resembles a threat or intimidation, real or implied, as opposed to vociferous stating of position, it will be deleted and further steps taken to insure that the poster is not allowed back. It does not matter which side of the ideological debate you are on. WE WILL NOT ALLOW MUDCAT TO BE USED FOR THESE PURPOSES!!! Feel free to debate, with passion, anger, facts, propaganda ..... whatever. Those are the free exchanges of positions, ideologies, and points of view that are welcomed and encouraged. I am watching this one closely. Do not think that because I am ideologically aligned in the debate that I will not enforce this uniformly. These posts above, while I was gone, came very close to the line. I would rather close down all debate of these issues, near to my viewpoint though they may be, than to allow any sort of threat.

Do not push this one.

also, using multiple identities is NOT allowed on Mudcat. Your posts will be deleted until you begin to use consistent identities. They can be a nom de pleume, but it must be consistent. That means a consistent identity in all threads, Beth/Kenny.

Subject: RE: BS: The Irish Peace Process
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 07 Apr 09 - 05:10 PM

Mick,


If there is anything posted further that even resembles a threat or intimidation, real or implied, as opposed to vociferous stating of position, it will be deleted and further steps taken to insure that the poster is not allowed back.

I would rather close down all debate of these issues, near to my viewpoint though they may be, than to allow any sort of threat.

Do you not find Guest, Dions words to Keith - Ie

It's better than an OBE. One Behind the Ear.

DO YOU HAVE KIDS ?

Somewhat of a threat? It may or may not have bene meant that way but I am VERY glad I have not had a disident IRA sympathiser using those phrases to me.

Cheers

Dave

Subject: RE: BS: The Irish Peace Process
From: Big Mick
Date: 07 Apr 09 - 05:21 PM

Yes, Dave, that is one of the comments I am referring to. I am leaving it as an example of the kind of stuff that will not be tolerated. It actually can be taken two ways, though. There were many examples of assassination both ways. There is plenty of evidence of the old RUC and British Army turning their heads when the assassination of Republicans was happening. So the comment might have gone either way, and have been a question, such as, "how would you like your kids to have to face this?".

And one more reminder to all. You are allowed one identity ON MUDCAT, and no anonymous posting on this thread or any other.

As to your comment, DeG, dissident is the key word. And to be more correct, and not (IMO) play to emotions and generalizations, you should have said "RIRA sympathizer.

Finally, quit the digression, please. I have laid down the rules, which are the rules of this forum. If you want further discussion of the moderation, you may PM me, or email me at Mick at Mudcat dot org. But any further comments should address the topic at hand. Others will be deleted.

Mick

Subject: RE: BS: The Irish Peace Process
From: MartinRyan
Date: 07 Apr 09 - 06:10 PM

Big Mick

Your "two ways" defence of GuestDion's posting is at best disingenuous, at worst grossly offensive. Pity.

Regards

Subject: RE: BS: The Irish Peace Process
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 07 Apr 09 - 06:27 PM

Dion was also attempting to intimidate when he posted to Lox:
"You don't speak for republicans lox, best to remember that. "

Mick, no one has defended the retaining of weapons by Loyalists.
We are all in favour of decommissioning.
The point being made was that witholding weapons and using them is much worse than witholding them but not using them.
Will you agree that point?

Subject: RE: BS: The Irish Peace Process
From: Big Mick
Date: 07 Apr 09 - 06:40 PM

Who is doing that, Keith? The withholding of weapons and still using them. I want you to be very specific in your answer.

Martin, I am sorry you don't get my point.

Subject: RE: BS: The Irish Peace Process
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 07 Apr 09 - 08:58 PM

The retaining of weapons by Loyalist groups seems to be very much a sticking point in this discussion of the peace process and therefore very much on topic. It has been pointed out, quite rightly, that out of the people that have retained weapons, the Loyalist groups have not yet used them.

A number of us have written to our MPs to ask that as much effort is put into disarming them as was put into the disarming of the Republican groups. As far as I can tell this is now happening. There is a concerted effort by police forces all over the UK to take weapons away from criminals, and criminals is what these people are. Nothing more. So, right back to the opening question and spirit of the thread; how is the peace process going?

Well, the view from here seems to be that it is going well. Reports both on this thread and in mainstream media sources seem to indicate the people actualy there are happy with the peace. There are thugs with guns about but, hey, there are gangland shootings in Manchester, London and any number of cities across the globe. The difference in the north of Ireland is that a couple of shootings have been performed in the name of the Republican cause. This has stuck, quite rightly, in the craw of the decent law abiding Republicans that form the majority.

There are, however, those who want to justify it by citing the retention of arms by Loyalist para-military groups. Let me say here and now that I believe that the people who keep arms and the people who use arms to maim and kill are two entirely different cases. Yes, of course everyone should disarm. The Republicans, The Loyalists, The UK, The US, China, Russia and uncle Tom Cobley and all. We know it will never happen. So lets have the next best thing. Let those who want arms keep them, but not use them. This is happening all over the world anyway but in Ulster it seems to have formed the basis for an ongoing peace.

What of those who are trying to derail that peace? I would say they are just criminal scum. But there are those here who will endevour to tell me that because I am not from that province I do not understand. Some of those same people have actively threatened others because of holding the same views as me. That is not conducive to understanding what is happening and is, quite rightly, not tolerated.

Mick, I am not questioning your integrity as a moderator when I say this, but the bias on this post seems to be distinctly anti British at the moment and I cannot see a good reason for that. It has nothing to do with the rules of the forum or your actions it is just that there have been a spate of posts questioning the validity and integrity of posters who hold very similar views to mine. We are all for the peace process. We all want to get rid of the problem. We all abhor the actions of the disident groups. Why start dredging up old posts and old arguments if not to try and open old wounds?

Cheers

DeG

Subject: RE: BS: The Irish Peace Process
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 07 Apr 09 - 09:03 PM

BTW - My father, who is Polish but has lived in England since 1946 and worked on building sites with many Irish, always said you can never win an argument with an Irishman. I know I am beat already but the Polish in me won't let me give up;-)

D.

Subject: RE: BS: The Irish Peace Process
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 07 Apr 09 - 09:23 PM

PPS. In my last paragraph, for 'the bias on this post' read 'the bias on this THREAD'

Mea Culpa:-(

D.

Subject: RE: BS: The Irish Peace Process
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 08 Apr 09 - 02:49 AM

Mick,
"Who is doing that, Keith? The withholding of weapons and still using them. I want you to be very specific in your answer"

I do not understand why you are asking this.
Are you claiming to be the only one on the thread who does not know, or is it a late entry to Mudcat April Fools?

I will be as specific as I can.
They are:
The Real Irish republican Army (RIRA)
The Continuity Irish Republican Army (CIRA)
The Irish Republican Liberation Army (IRLA)
The Irish National Liberation Army (INLA)
Oglaigh na hEireann (Soldiers of Ireland)
None of the above armed groups have announced a cease fire.

If you object to the label "dissident Republican" that is difficult because it is a descriptively accurate term and one used and accepted by all parties.

Subject: RE: BS: The Irish Peace Process
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 08 Apr 09 - 02:50 AM

Sorry, 200.

Subject: RE: BS: The Irish Peace Process
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 08 Apr 09 - 04:48 AM

Dave and others might be interested in these recent reports on Loyalist weapons.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/northern_ireland/7984116.stm

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/northern_ireland/7978507.stm

Subject: RE: BS: The Irish Peace Process
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 08 Apr 09 - 04:02 PM

Thanks Keith. Of course all this is just a ploy by the British security forces to implicate Republicans in a plot to overthrow the free world as we know it...

:D (eG)

Subject: RE: BS: The Irish Peace Process
From: Big Mick
Date: 08 Apr 09 - 04:29 PM

Keith, you know very well why I asked you the specific question. It is because you seek to lump Irish Republicanism with terrorism, using the catchall phrase of "republicans" or "republican violence". Once you get specific, it is easy to show the bias. Let's look at what you posted.

Coninuity IRA - this is a splinter group of dissidents that is estimated to have 50 to 80 members, according to Reuters.

RIRA - a splinter off CIRA that has even fewer members.

IRLA - according to the Independent Monitoring Commission this group is "not terrorist in nature" and is essentially a group of folks involved in criminal activity.

INLA - estimated to have a couple of dozen members, and a few hundred supporters.

Oglaigh na hEirrean - one of a number of groups using the name, but the one I suppose you refer to is the splinter off of CIRA. They have few weapons, have committed some robberies, and use pipe bombs from time to time.

Add it all up and you have a few hundred, then stack that against the Republicans that have embraced the peace process, and you see that they will make a few headlines but the day of the gun is essentially over. It is now about the ballot box.

Finally I want to address this remark:

The point being made was that witholding weapons and using them is much worse than witholding them but not using them.


That is exactly what I mean when I say you folks have been twisting the truth so long that you don't even realize you are doing it. If you really believed in the process you renounce that for the load of bollocks it is. Either you need weapons or you don't. If the Loyalists believed in the process, they would decommission, as PIRA did, and leave the few hundred dissidents to the authorities. And if you folks across the pond really believed in the process you would just say that they are wrong for not decommissioning.

Mick

Subject: RE: BS: The Irish Peace Process
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 08 Apr 09 - 10:16 PM

And if you folks across the pond really believed in the process you would just say that they are wrong for not decommissioning.

OK, Mick.

They are wrong for not decommisioning.

How about that. I have said it many times before and in many different ways. I have said it here. I have said it to my MP. But I have now said it in the exact words that you want. But the fact still remains that witholding weapons and using them is much worse than witholding them but not using them.

I don't realy understand why you would think the two views seem to mutualy exclusive.

Cheers

DeG

Subject: RE: BS: The Irish Peace Process
From: Stu
Date: 09 Apr 09 - 03:52 AM

"And if you folks across the pond really believed in the process you would just say that they are wrong for not decommissioning."

They are wrong for not decommissioning.

From my post of Date: 16 Mar 09 - 04:25 AM:

"Er, that's not quite true. Loyalist paramilitaries have not disarmed and still have plenty of weapons, so it's time for them to disarm too."

It might surprise you to know Mick that not everyone in Britain hold's Keith's views. I don't care how anti-British you are and how much you hate us all but you are labouring under a massive misapprehension if you think that all the folks across the pond are in some way approving of many of the state's actions in the North.

To say people here don't believe in the peace process (although of course some on both sides don't) is just plain ignorant. Stop tarring everyone with the same brush.

Subject: RE: BS: The Irish Peace Process
From: MartinRyan
Date: 09 Apr 09 - 04:48 AM

I'm normally averse, on principle, to stating the blindingly obvious but , for once, here goes:

Big Mick

"And if you folks across the pond really believed in the process you would just say that they are wrong for not decommissioning."

They are wrong for not decommissioning.

Frankly, I resent your implication that those who condemn "republican" violence of whatever shade, without appending loyalist-related caveats, are "bigoted".

Regards

Subject: RE: BS: The Irish Peace Process
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 09 Apr 09 - 04:51 AM

The Loalist Paramilitaries (who I regard as terrorists) are wrong not to have decommissioned already and should do so at once.
Like David I have stated that many times before.
This link is for the thread where David and I joined a campaign for loayalist decommissioning. thread.cfm?threadid=81147&messages=313

Sugarfoot, I think most brits do share my view in that we all oppose ALL the terror groups and we want the peace process and democracy to succeed, and we on the mainland dream of the day when they can get enough people over there to vote to leave Britain.

I would be interested to know which of my views stated here or elsewhere you disagree with.

Subject: RE: BS: The Irish Peace Process
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 09 Apr 09 - 06:38 AM

So Mick, you posed your question to me just to make the point that dissident repubs are a small minority of all repubs?
How pointless.
Eveyone on this thread knows that anyway.
See Leadfingers' comment around 8th March.

It is also pointless to insist that we must never criticise any dissident republican violence without restating, every single time, that we also condemn loyalist weapons holding.

Do you have another point to make?

Subject: RE: BS: The Irish Peace Process
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 09 Apr 09 - 06:47 AM

Also Mick, I deny twisting the truth.
If some truths do not fit your philosophy, they are still truths.

You and sugarfoot should remember that I have never argued against a united Ireland.
I long for the day.
Our point of disagreement has always been that PIRA violence only damaged that hope.
What really annoys you is when I point out that the majority of Northern Ireland Nationalists agreed with me.
It is untwisted truth that those were the views of NICRA and SDLP.
Get over it.

Subject: RE: BS: The Irish Peace Process
From: Stu
Date: 09 Apr 09 - 06:47 AM

"I would be interested to know which of my views stated here or elsewhere you disagree with."

I disagree with your general bias, although do respect your opinion of course.

I've said before and I'll say again that in Britain we are simply not taught about the actions that took place during the days of Empire and the consequences of it. We've spent so long on the arse end of a well-oiled propaganda machine our ability as a society to understand the context and depth of feeling amongst Irish Republicans and Loyalists is virtually nil, unless you actively go out and seek some answers.

What I do dislike is some of the absolutism displayed by people who don't live in the Isles, let alone Ireland. We should be listening to the people who live there regardless of which side they are from and attempt to understand. The reason I believe the peace process will work is that there are ordinary people in the North who are willing to do that at a personal level, and that takes some courage. In years to come their efforts will pay dividends - I hope.

Subject: RE: BS: The Irish Peace Process
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 09 Apr 09 - 08:05 AM

"What I do dislike is some of the absolutism displayed by people who don't live in these Isles, let alone Ireland. We should be listening to the people who live there regardless of which side they are from and attempt to understand. The reason I believe the peace process will work is that there are ordinary people in the North who are willing to do that at a personal level, and that takes some courage. In years to come their efforts will pay dividends - I hope."

(My editing, underlined for clarity, BTW)

Absolutely correct Jack, my view too.

Subject: RE: BS: The Irish Peace Process
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 09 Apr 09 - 09:13 AM

Sugarfoot Jack, you say of me "I disagree with your general bias"
It is hard to see bias in oneself, but I think that my only bias here is against paramilitary violence.
Do you not share that?

I have never shown bias between Loyalist and Republican violence.
Both disgust me and I have said so since my very earliest posts on Mudcat.
The difference is that in my time on Mudcat no one has ever defended Loyalist violence.
I have had no one to argue with on that side.
Thus all my arguments have been with defenders of Republican violence.
Like Mick (although he does not defend the current violence).

Subject: RE: BS: The Irish Peace Process
From: Big Mick
Date: 09 Apr 09 - 02:24 PM

Let me clear up a couple of things. It seems we all read each others posts through the shade of our own biases.

Sugarfoot Jack, I do not hate the British people, whether they are English, Cornish, Welsh, Scots, ..... whatever. I am sorry you take my comments that way. I have way too many good British friends to make such a blanket statement. But I do hate the policies of the British Government, over the years. I think I would characterize it the same way that I have heard my British friends characterize the USA. Love the people, hate the policies.

Martin, you said:

Frankly, I resent your implication that those who condemn "republican" violence of whatever shade, without appending loyalist-related caveats, are "bigoted".

I am sorry you take such a personal view, as it was not meant personally. Nor did I imply such a thing. What I find hypocritical and bigoted are those that make apologetic comments about Loyalist arms, while ranting on and on about the IRA decommissioning. Teribus is an example. Keith is another. Whenever one brings up the fact that the Loyalists have not yet done the right thing, these blokes rationalize it. My only point is that you either buy into the process or you don't. There can be no equivocation. And from the latest comments, I can see that they have

As to my support of violence, quite simply I don't support it. But neither will I offer apologies for the past. Michael Collins was seen as a violent terrorist in his time, but his actions surely had a major impact on the present day Republic of Ireland. It is foolish to condemn the past. But I have said many times. The people of the North of Ireland, all of the people, have embraced the ballot box. That means it doesn't matter what some Yank across the western water, or some Brit across the eastern water think. It is why the armed struggle is not relevant, despite what some of the dissidents think. The people who live there will determine their future.

Here in the States we have people that think with the election of Obama we have entered into a post racial part of our history. Nothing could be further from the truth. Same goes for the North of Ireland. As we can see, the peace process was just a start. It will take the best part of a generation for this to play out.

As to my right to speak to the issue, I have every much right as Keith, or Teribus, or any of you. The only people I will accept take a back seat to are those on the ground there. I may not agree with their views, but they have legitimacy.

Subject: RE: BS: The Irish Peace Process
From: MartinRyan
Date: 09 Apr 09 - 02:59 PM

Big Mick

I'm afraid most of the rationalising going on in this thread is on your part. If I had a dollar. euro or pound for every "republican" who said "I don't support violence but..." I could rescue the economy.


Me? I'm off to another forum where they squabble about the identification of double-barred crossbills and other such arcane matters. Ultimately, it's more productive than this sterile, circular "debate".

Note to self: I must keep away from BS. I must keep away from BS. I must....

Subject: RE: BS: The Irish Peace Process
From: GUEST,lox
Date: 09 Apr 09 - 04:27 PM

(lox lurks furtively in shady alley wearing long coat as Martin Ryan walks nervously by)

" .... pssst ... martin .... need any BS? .... "

Subject: RE: BS: The Irish Peace Process
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 09 Apr 09 - 04:59 PM

Big Mick, you are a founder member of this site and a trusted moderator. As such you should feel a responsibity to uphold forum rules.
You have just said that I "make apologetic comments about Loyalist arms, while ranting on and on about the IRA decommissioning."
Show me (except the post where I used your own words).

You have also called me a bigot, a hypocrite and a twister of the truth.

I have given a link to the "BS: Loyalists' Weapons - Off The Streets NOW" thread and my contribution to it.
I can link to posts where I declare my unbiased condemnation of all the paramilitaries and to me telling a loyalist he has no support from me.
I say that those and other posts prove I am no bigot and no hypocrite.

Mick, if you can not give a good example of my hypocrisy, or of me being bigoted, or being untruthful, then you should withdraw.

Subject: RE: BS: The Irish Peace Process
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 10 Apr 09 - 02:41 PM

Mick, you have posted elsewhere.
Am I not worthy of a reply?
I have complained to a moderator about misconduct from another member.
Two other respected members have also criticised that member's inappropriate use of the offensive term "bigot."

I have listed the other offensive words you used against me without evidence or justification.

Name calling, personal and ad hominem attacks.
All emotion and no knowledge.

There are rules here.

Subject: RE: BS: The Irish Peace Process
From: Big Mick
Date: 10 Apr 09 - 03:33 PM

I am well aware of the rules. I have ceased to participate in this thread. I also have turned the moderating of it over to another moderator several days ago. I called your views bigoted and hypocritical. I am entitled to that opinion of your views. What kind of a person you are is not something that I am privy to as we have never met.

I note that you have indicated that the Loyalists should be forced to decommission. That is what I was after. I would like it to be unequivocal, and without condition. Off the street is not good enough. They should be put beyond use, just as the Republican weapons. Your views of them should be the same.

My opinion is that Brits, such as yourself, have no more and no less right to an opinion on the political situation than Yanks do. I am entitled to my opinion. You have consistently twisted that, as I have seen you do throughout the years on this subject. That is my opinion. You do not live in the North of Ireland, nor does Teribus, nor do I. I get the distinct impression that you will not be satisfied with me until my views on the subject of the land THAT MY PEOPLE CAME FROM, in whose traditions and culture I have been steeped all the years of my life, have changed. I find the actions of the British government reprehensible, and I am entitled to that opinion. You want me to acknowledge that I think PIRA was wrong for their actions. That is ridiculous and will never happen. What has gone before has gone before. And it has brought us to a moment when my kin are finally on the verge of peace and a stable government. That would be like asking the Viet Cong to apologize for their fight, or the American Revolutionary guerrilla fighters (who were not supported by many of the people at the time) to apologize for their actions. In my eyes, the PIRA fighters had a simple goal and a proper goal. But the day that the people of the North made a committment to peace and the ballot box, my philosophical support for the armed struggle ended. But I am not going to apologize for it, and I am not going to criticize it. Brave men and women paid too dear a price for that to happen. You call Sands a terrorist. I call him a hero.

No matter how you cut it, no matter how you gerrymander the facts to suit you argument, the fact remains that the government of Great Britain has been found to have acted inappropriately, emprisoning Irish men and women without charge, to have used of torture, provided intelligence to Loyalist units, looked the other way while murder was committed, and allowed the harassment of my kin and friends in the North.

So, complain to whom you will. You will get no more response from me. Discussion with you is fruitless. I will not apologize, and I have not violated any rule in indicating that I find your views to be hypocritical and bigoted. These are the last words you get from me on this subject. It doesn't matter at any rate. The end of the British governments meddling in the affairs of the North of Ireland is in the air. And given time, the democratic vote of the people, IMO, will reunite it with the Republic. It may take some time to undo the gerrymandering and the still felt effects of the plantation polices, as well as the use of the Orange Card, but it will happen. Then Irish people, Orange and Green, Protestant and Catholic, will finally just live in peace.

One last thing. I gave a lot of thought to Martin's comments about GUEST,Dion's post, as well as your comments. I made the decision to delete the comments, and accept that I erred in pointing out that it could be taken several ways. Martin, and yourself, were correct. I came back to delete them and saw that the other moderator had done this already. I support that, and I wish to say that I was wrong and that should have been deleted immediately. The only reason that I have not blocked this person is that I think it important to have a Republican view from the ground in the North. But whenever something is posted that implies a threat, it should be deleted. I was away during the time that these were posted, but the other moderator sent me an email making me aware of the post. I apologize for not deleting those posts immediately.

That's it for me in this thread and on this topic. Carry on without me, boyo's.

Mick

Subject: RE: BS: The Irish Peace Process
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 11 Apr 09 - 09:34 AM

My deleted reply available by pm.

I suggest that if you don't want your message deleted, you discuss the "Irish Peace Process" and not posters to this thread.
Thank you, a moderator.

Subject: RE: BS: The Irish Peace Process
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 11 Apr 09 - 10:07 AM

If every post that is not on topic on Mudcat was deleted there would be precious little left in the threads. But, to make sure my post is not deleted I would like make it quite clear that the comments below refer to Irish Peace process.

Unless everyone is heard and all their comments are taken on board there is little chance it will suceed. The only way forward is to drop old predjudices, blinkered attitudes and authoritarian censorship. If everyone took the attitude of 'I don't like it so people should not say it' then what is the point of democracy? As much as the powers that be would like to silence those who disagree with them it will not happen.

DeG

(Who has kept a copy of this post just in case...)

Subject: RE: BS: The Irish Peace Process
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 11 Apr 09 - 11:05 AM

The Irish Peace Process is hindered by prejudice, bigotry and hypocricy.
Those guilty should be brought to account, but justice demands that EVIDENCE MUST BE PRODUCED.

Accusations must not be made on the basis of IGNORANT PREJUDICE AND OPINION.

Subject: RE: BS: The Irish Peace Process
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 13 Apr 09 - 09:40 AM

...but does the peace process have anything to do with processed peas?

DeG

Subject: RE: BS: The Irish Peace Process
From: GUEST,Cathy Turnball
Date: 13 Apr 09 - 10:07 AM

Yes Dave, both bring old farts out.

Cat

Subject: RE: BS: The Irish Peace Process
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 13 Apr 09 - 10:10 AM

I resemble that remark.

Subject: RE: BS: The Irish Peace Process
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 13 Apr 09 - 12:01 PM

Just in case Cathy's remark gets deleted as a guest, it was -

Yes Dave, both bring old farts out.

Cat

Brilliant

:D (eG)

Subject: RE: BS: The Irish Peace Process
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 14 Apr 09 - 10:52 AM

A report on Republican Sinn fein news conference last month, and a report on a probable RIRA announcement and comments on it from Sinn Fein
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/northern_ireland/7997429.stm
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/northern_ireland/7966390.stm

Subject: RE: BS: The Irish Peace Process
From: Den
Date: 01 Jun 09 - 01:47 PM

I waited for a while before posting my comments about an incident that took place a week ago in Coleraine, N. Ireland. I waited to see if any of our usual contributors would post anything. Unsurprisingly noone seemed to find the killing of another innocent catholic worth a mention. This is the original account of the incident reported by the Belfast Telegraph. There are a series of related articles on the site if anyone requires more information. Kevin McDaid was buried today.

Subject: RE: BS: The Irish Peace Process
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 01 Jun 09 - 05:36 PM

That was a particularly horrific murder Den.
I would not have renewed the thread for an act of sectarian violence, however brutal.
Similarly not for paramilitary punishment beatings and shootings.
But that is just me.

Subject: RE: BS: The Irish Peace Process
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 01 Jun 09 - 07:15 PM

I'm not sure I see the point of reopening a thread just to say, about something terrible that has happened, "this is a terrible thing to have happened".

Subject: RE: BS: The Irish Peace Process
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 02 Jun 09 - 07:08 AM

""My point stands - Loyalists who hang onto their guns - just as dissident republicans - do so in the expectation of using them at some point: why else would you keep them except as 'insurance' (or perhaps to enforce the UVF's and UDA's drug dealing). If they were committed to peace they'd have consigned the guns to he dust bin when the main body of republicans did. Instead it seems to be the case with loyalists 'first in, last out'""

So it is YOUR belief that the USA retains its nuclear weapons with the firm intention of one day using them, rather than as a deterrent?

Brilliant!

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: The Irish Peace Process
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 02 Jun 09 - 07:26 AM

""Your defending the Loyalists right to keep weapons while insisting the Republicans decommission theirs is proof of your bigotry.""

There is a huge difference, Mick, between defending the right of anyone to keep arms, and expressing approval of someone who, having arms, decides under extreme and deliberate provocation NOT TO USE THEM!

I don't think anyone here is advocating that loyalists be armed (rather the reverse), but, whether rightly or wrongly, they are. This is a separate issue from the fact that, after an attack, they DID allow the properly constituted authorities to deal with the matter according to law, thereby thwarting the intentions of the dissidents, and PRESERVING the peace.

Tell me Mick, how does what I have just said make me a hypocrite, a loyalist partisan, a bigot, or any of the other unpleasant names you attribute to those who disagree with your long distance expertise in Irish affairs.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: The Irish Peace Process
From: Den
Date: 02 Jun 09 - 11:24 AM

I reopened this thread because the murder of Kevin McDaid and others is a direct attack on the peace process.

Again it shines the spotlight on the PSNI who new in advance that UDA thugs were going to the area to cause trouble. They did nothing to stop them. They did not intervene when Mr McDaid and Mr Fleming were being brutally beaten, even though incredibly, there were armed officers present.

Subject: RE: BS: The Irish Peace Process
From: MartinRyan
Date: 02 Jun 09 - 12:45 PM

Don(Wyziwyg)T

Note that Mick, like Elvis, has left the building (post of April 10).

Regards

Subject: RE: BS: The Irish Peace Process
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 02 Jun 09 - 02:04 PM

""Note that Mick, like Elvis, has left the building (post of April 10).""

He may have left the discussion Martin, but, rest assured, he will be aware of what transpires here.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: The Irish Peace Process
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 03 Jun 09 - 04:20 AM

Den, fair point.
You did not refer to the PSNI angle in your first post.
The accusations that you state as facts are disputed by PSNI.
Here is their response reported in same paper you linked to.
http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/local-national/wersquoll-bring--killers-to-justice-orde-14314594.html
Mrs McDaid,as well as criticising the police, said she was "grateful to the members of the PSNI who attended to Kevin after this horrific assault and who attempted to administer CPR as he lay dying at our feet."

Better Peace Process news is the SE Antrim Brigade of UDA have announced that they will decommission before August deadline.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/2009/may/31/northern-ireland-uda

Subject: RE: BS: The Irish Peace Process
From: Den
Date: 05 Jun 09 - 09:24 AM

Keith, how do you seriously think the police are going to respond to criticism. The point is, tension had been building in and around the area all day. There should have been a heavier police presence. There are plenty of eye witness accounts to the fact that there was no intervention to protect Mr. McDaid as he was being attacked. The article you linked to is a damning indictment of them as an impartial force. For more information check out Kevin Myers report from the Irish Independent. Kudos to the guys who did come to his aid but it was too little too late.

Subject: RE: BS: The Irish Peace Process
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 05 Jun 09 - 09:36 AM

You may well be right Den, but the events are disputed.
Perhaps you have inside knowledge. The rest of us have to wait.

Subject: RE: BS: The Irish Peace Process
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 07 Jun 09 - 10:16 AM

Resistance through violence and killing is wrong, and it does not succeed. For centuries, black people in America suffered the lash of the whip as slaves and the humiliation of segregation. But it was not violence that won full and equal rights. It was a peaceful and determined insistence upon the ideals at the center of America's founding. This same story can be told by people from South Africa to South Asia; from Eastern Europe to Indonesia. It's a story with a simple truth: that violence is a dead end. It is a sign neither of courage nor power to shoot rockets at sleeping children, or to blow up old women on a bus. That's not how moral authority is claimed; that's how it is surrendered.

Subject: RE: BS: The Irish Peace Process
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 09 Jun 09 - 08:06 AM

Above quote from Pres Barack Obama speech in Cairo last month.
Superfluous now, but generations of Mudcatters yet unborn may wonder.

Subject: RE: BS: The Irish Peace Process
From: Stringsinger
Date: 09 Jun 09 - 10:39 AM

Mick,

I respectfully disagree. Economics are often fueled by religion and vice-versa.
There is no reason why Ireland's economy can't work for both the Nationalist and the
Northern side. The only thing standing in the way is religion.

The reason that wars have been fought for years is because religion has entered into
the equation.

"Us and them" is a religious principle that has historically applied and needs to be changed.

Ireland is so rich in culture and talent from both sides of the border that it makes no sense for either side to be shooting at each other. It comes down to the "Crips" and the "Bloods".
This is not, and I repeat, not economic. That's a convenient dodge.

Again, I respect you and hear what you say.

Frank

Subject: RE: BS: The Irish Peace Process
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 18 Jun 09 - 07:03 AM

At last.
Loyalists begin to decommisson.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/northern_ireland/8106907.stm

Subject: RE: BS: The Irish Peace Process
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 19 Jun 09 - 02:23 PM

No reaction, and no reason that there should be, except that so much emotion has been expended here over this issue.

I was sort of expecting that the break through, when it came, would arouse some comment.
Wrong again.

Subject: RE: BS: The Irish Peace Process
From: MartinRyan
Date: 19 Jun 09 - 02:27 PM

Looks like a case of "Good news is no news!".

It's one more small step on a long road.

Regards

Subject: RE: BS: The Irish Peace Process
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 19 Jun 09 - 05:53 PM

""No reaction, and no reason that there should be, except that so much emotion has been expended here over this issue.

I was sort of expecting that the break through, when it came, would arouse some comment.""

Don't expect them to jump for joy Keith. It's just taken away their last excuse for slagging off the loyalists.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: The Irish Peace Process
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 19 Jun 09 - 06:13 PM

Unfortunately there are some kinds of "loyalists" who appear committed to inviting being slagged off, and to lining up with the British Nazi Party.

BS: Romanians flee Belfast homes after attack

It was encouraging to see the leaders of both Sinn Fein and the DUP speaking out together this week to denounce that kind of thing. And in a way that's as hopeful a thing to happen as the welcome news of loyalists coming around to decommissioning weapons.

Subject: RE: BS: The Irish Peace Process
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 23 Nov 09 - 04:40 AM

Less political accord, and a surge in violence culminating now in a fire fight and a 400 pound car bomb.
Support for dissidents is still said to be small, but rising.

Subject: RE: BS: The Irish Peace Process
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 24 Nov 09 - 04:07 AM

Times have changed.
The time was when we would have a rush of posts of the "my side right the other side wrong" variety.
Perhaps it is good that people are less certain of the rights and wrongs, and slower to make knee jerk reaction posts.

Subject: RE: BS: The Irish Peace Process
From: ard mhacha
Date: 24 Nov 09 - 04:46 AM

Keith, Once again,talking to and about yourself.

Subject: RE: BS: The Irish Peace Process
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 24 Nov 09 - 04:53 AM

Just a reminder to mudelves that no guest postings should be allowed on this thread. Ta.

Subject: RE: BS: The Irish Peace Process
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 24 Nov 09 - 07:19 AM

Yes Ard, and isn't that remarkable?
We have a live, contentious development in the politics of conflict in Northern Ireland, and no one wants to express an opinion.
Plus ca change.

Subject: RE: BS: The Irish Peace Process
From: Dead Horse
Date: 24 Nov 09 - 07:43 AM

Having served in NI with HM Forces I can assure you I have an opinion, but I can see both sides of this long heart wrenching story, so will not be seen to align myself with either side.
The extremists have had their day and, barring a few die-hard souls who cannot be appeased, have agreed to lay down their arms while the peace process has ITS day.
Long may it continue to do so.

Subject: RE: BS: The Irish Peace Process
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 11 Jul 10 - 02:02 PM

Jim Carrol posted this today on the Bloody Sunday thread.
(I have deleted a bit about Holy Cross School because it is seven years out of date.)
I think it is out of place in that thread, but people can choose.

The fact that 'The Troubles' have not gone away is evidenced by the persistent aggressive behaviour of militant Unionists which manifests itself in massive intimidatory marches, particularly around this time of year. Proof enough of the aggressive nature of these marches is the constant demand by the organisers that they should be allowed to take place through Catholic areas. Just how current the threat of violent trouble is is shown by the rioting on the streets of Belfast this week.
So unless people can prove otherwise, for me the problem still exists and can break out at any time. The British people are paying to maintain the fragile peace in partitioned Ireland and, should trouble break out again, it is they who will provide the cannon-fodder and the cash to force the lid back on it yet again.

Subject: RE: BS: The Irish Peace Process
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 11 Jul 10 - 02:04 PM

Jim Carroll.
Sorry Jim.

Subject: RE: BS: The Irish Peace Process
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 11 Jul 10 - 02:36 PM

Jim you say,
"The fact that 'The Troubles' have not gone away is evidenced by the persistent aggressive behaviour of militant Unionists which manifests itself in massive intimidatory marches, particularly around this time of year."

They always have marched and they always will.
Hardly evidence that the Troubles are still on!

Riots?
A few scuffles. That is how it is likely to remain for some time yet, but nothing like the old days thank God.

Subject: RE: BS: The Irish Peace Process
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 03 Apr 11 - 03:13 AM

The dissidents killed a policeman yesterday.
The young man,25, did not die at once.
It was briefly reported here on Mudcat, but no one expressed any opinion.
He is only the second since PSNI was established ten years ago.
Both were singled out because they were Catholics. (Sectarian killings?)

It is the main news story here.
All political and church leaders in britain and Ireland condemn it.

US Secretary of State Hilary Clinton said the US government "strongly condemns the appalling murder of the police officer in Omagh, Northern Ireland today".

"The perpetrators of this cowardly act represent the failures of the past, and their actions run counter to the achievements, aspirations, and collective will of the people of Northern Ireland," she said.

"Our thoughts are with the family and loved ones of this young man who lost his life because of his decision to serve the entire community.

"We echo the unequivocal condemnations by Northern Ireland's politicians and call on anyone with information to cooperate fully and expediently with the Police Service of Northern Ireland."

Subject: RE: BS: The Irish Peace Process
From: Richie Black (misused acct, bad email)
Date: 03 Apr 11 - 05:04 AM

A sad loss of a young life. Thoughts with his family today.

Also this week in Ulster I see the government has admitted that Private Michael Williams, of the 3rd Battalion Parachute Regiment told lies when he said he saw and fired upon IRA gunmen. He used this as an excuse when he murdered a little girl who was only 12 years of age, Majella O'Hare who was shot twice in the back by Private Michael Williamson her way to church in 1976. A brave guy.

A letter signed by Defence Secretary Liam Fox was handed over to the family of Majella O'Hare on Monday. It is only the second time an apology has been offered for incidents involving the Army during the Troubles. The other was last year in relation to the Bloody Sunday killings of 1972.

So we should also remember the family of this little girl Majella O'Hare today. Para Michael Williams must face a murder trail for the killing of this little girl.

Her brother said on Monday: "It's 35 years ago this year in August, the pain is still as much as in the days and months and years afterwards - it never leaves.
"It is not closure, but we have moved along the way. It has been a long time coming. It still does not avoid the fact that Majella is dead as a result of their actions."


The original RUC investigation found that Private Michael Williams was not returning fire at a gunman as he claimed and they recommended to prosecutors that he be charged with manslaughter. The prosecutors agreed and charged him with manslaughter, but he was acquitted. I think the people in Ulster reserve justice, and para Williams, MUST be charged with murder.

Subject: RE: BS: The Irish Peace Process
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 03 Apr 11 - 05:56 AM

The fact that 'The Troubles' have not gone away is evidenced by the persistent aggressive behaviour of militant Unionists which manifests itself in massive intimidatory marches, particularly around this time of year. Proof enough of the aggressive nature of these marches is the constant demand by the organisers that they should be allowed to take place through Catholic areas. Just how current the threat of violent trouble is is shown by the rioting on the streets of Belfast this week.
So unless people can prove otherwise, for me the problem still exists and can break out at any time. The British people are paying to maintain the fragile peace in partitioned Ireland and, should trouble break out again, it is they who will provide the cannon-fodder and the cash to force the lid back on it yet again. (emphasis added.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: The Irish Peace Process
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 03 Apr 11 - 06:21 AM

So, no blame for the dissidents Jim, just for the other community, whose summer parades all passed off peacefully and without any trouble again last year, and with the blessing of Sinn Fein.

Subject: RE: BS: The Irish Peace Process
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 03 Apr 11 - 06:41 AM

The blame lies with thos who partitioned a country and with all those who support the partitioning - whoever and how many they may be.
Until the country (Ireland) is united, the problem will be passed on from genration to generation - despite those eejits who claim it no longer exists.
It is not the job of we English to either run countries or tell the occupants of those countries how they should be run - that should have gone with the Empire and Ireland is proof that it hasn't.
No more to be said, not by me anyway - as they say where I come from "you don't boil cabbages twice"
By-eee - have a good day.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: The Irish Peace Process
From: Teribus
Date: 03 Apr 11 - 09:16 AM

"It is not the job of we English to either run countries or tell the occupants of those countries how they should be run - that should have gone with the Empire and Ireland is proof that it hasn't."

And as far as I am aware the English have no say whatsoever in the "running" of Ireland North or South.

Also as far as I am aware Ireland will only ever be "united" when the population of Northern Ireland demand a referendum and vote for unification and the population of the Republic hold a referendum to agree to that unification - I would say that that comprehensively canvasses the opinions of the occupants of the island of Ireland both North and South of the border.

Subject: RE: BS: The Irish Peace Process
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 03 Apr 11 - 10:11 AM

"I would say that that comprehensively canvasses the opinions of the occupants of the island of Ireland both North and South of the border." Been here before Terribus - you never made your point last time - doubt if you have anything new to say, and living in the Republic (majority bit) gives a pretty clear picture of the fact that, while the affair may have been put on the 'long finger' the continuing violence just passes the problem on to the next generation without a solution.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: The Irish Peace Process
From: Allan Conn
Date: 03 Apr 11 - 11:29 AM

"The blame lies with thos who partitioned a country"

I don't think that washes with most people. Surely both parts of Ireland voted pretty overwhelmingly and agreed that the future of Northern Ireland should depend on the majority both in Northern Ireland and the Republic. People are freely open to disagree with the majority and campaign for their own preferences - but the only person to blame for planting a bomb is the bomber himself.

Subject: RE: BS: The Irish Peace Process
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 03 Apr 11 - 11:31 AM

Jim, your solution, unification against the will of the people, would not produce a violent backlash?

Subject: RE: BS: The Irish Peace Process
From: Richie Black (misused acct, bad email)
Date: 03 Apr 11 - 12:11 PM

So what about this week's news of Private Michael Williams, the 3rd Battalion Parachute Regiment guilty of murdering this 12 year old girl ?

Gerry Adams as leader of the Provisional IRA used to say "Intensify the campaign prior to an election." Probably to disillusion voters and cause embarrassment to mainstream political parties exposing their parties had no influence over the men of violence.

He taught them well, and it could prove to bite Sinn Fein on the ass in May.

Up until now, the RIRA and the CIRA have shown their attacks to be amateur and lacking materials and or retaining a permanent skill base. Between them, membership seems to be a few guys with big ego's or an axe to grind with ex Provisionals, in fact several have been victims of Provisional beatings and expulsions.

This new group, Óglaigh na hÉireann, is different, little is known about them due to membership coming from campaign hardened ex Provisionals wise to success of the individual small cell policy. Their leadership comes from both the I.N.L.A. and the Provisionals and they have the capabilities, knowledge and ability to make contact with suppliers of materials.

I think this is a concerning time, Onh numbers may be small, they may only represent a minor friction of republicans, but the Provisionals didn't exactly have the community behind them either late in their campaign. As yesterdays atrocity showed, it only took two men and the element of opportunity.

Sin Fein will have more to lose in yesterdays attack, they were scoring votes from middle ground parties, the community may see this as republican violence and Sinn Fein unable to deliver in their promise of an ending of the armed struggle.

Subject: RE: BS: The Irish Peace Process
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 03 Apr 11 - 12:24 PM

That should have been dealt with correctly at the time.
If he shot the child on purpose, he is a dangerous psychopath.
If it was an accidental or negligent discharge, he should have faced the consequences.
A few years ago, an IRA gunman admitted shooting a child in the troubles whose death had been blamed on the army.

Subject: RE: BS: The Irish Peace Process
From: Stringsinger
Date: 03 Apr 11 - 01:51 PM

No one seems to want to cop to the idea that religion is at the basis of the "troubles".

"Papist", "Proddy", these names should tell you something.

There are these apologists that say that the "troubles" are all about economy. False.

Look at Bahrain. Shiite against Sunni.

Even now, women in Egypt are becoming second class citizens. Why?
They are being tested for virginity.

The anti-Muslim wave in the U.S. is being carried by Terry Jones and fundamentalist
Christians. Mosque burnings anyone?

Then there's Israel and Palestine. No nation called Palestine? Not true. It takes more than a piece of paper to make a nation.

When Sunnis and Shiites get past their religion enough to get together for common purposes such as peace, "Proddies and Papists", Jews and Muslims, Christians and Muslims, Tibetans and Chinese (yes the latter claim a certain kind of religion loosely defined), Hindus and Moslems, on and on.

Peace will come when people personalize and not socialize their religious beliefs and allow for non-belief.

Subject: RE: BS: The Irish Peace Process
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 03 Apr 11 - 03:57 PM

"Jim, your solution, unification against the will of the people, would not produce a violent backlash? "
The people of Ireland as a whole have never been consulted on the matter in circumstances that would produce and accrate picture of what they they (as a 32 county nation). Rather they were not given the choice what the country was partitiond and more recently have been shellshocked by twenty odd years of open warfare into hoping (once again) that it will come right in the end.
That shellshock is now wearing off and troubles are starting up again.
Incidentally - as it was you who mentioned taking sides, did you know that following the ceasefire and the Good Friday Agreement, numbers of former Loyalist paramilitaries turned their attentions to terrorising eastern European immigrants - violence, threats of same, and arson attacks - that should put them in your 'white hats' team.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: The Irish Peace Process
From: Richie Black (misused acct, bad email)
Date: 03 Apr 11 - 07:15 PM

Within the past two years, police in the Irish republic have recovered a large number of Gloch handguns during raids on known drug dealers in Limerick, Cork and Dublin. Through intelligence and admission during interviews, these weapons were traced back to a consignment that came in via Scotland to Loyalist paramilitaries in Ulster.

Regarding decommissioning, Loyalists in Ulster made only a token gesture. The PSNI have known for some time that Ulster Loyalists have been exchanging weapons with southern Irish drug cartels for class A drugs.

Subject: RE: BS: The Irish Peace Process
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 04 Apr 11 - 06:58 AM

"Within the past two years, police in the Irish republic have recovered....
"The fact that 'The Troubles' have not gone away is evidenced by the persistent aggressive behaviour of militant Unionists which manifests itself in massive intimidatory marches, particularly around this time of year. Proof enough of the aggressive nature of these marches is the constant demand by the organisers that they should be allowed to take place through Catholic areas. Just how current the threat of violent trouble is is shown by the rioting on the streets of Belfast this week.
So unless people can prove otherwise, for me the problem still exists and can break out at any time. The British people are paying to maintain the fragile peace in partitioned Ireland and, should trouble break out again, it is they who will provide the cannon-fodder and the cash to force the lid back on it yet again. (emphasis added.)"
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: The Irish Peace Process
From: Richie Black (misused acct, bad email)
Date: 04 Apr 11 - 07:23 AM

Contentious parades should not be allowed to pass through areas that could cause offence or public disorder. Parades or gatherings celebrating the culture or tradition of either community should be confined to their own respective areas, sad it should be that way, but that is the reality of it. No one wants areas designated as catholic or protestant, unionist or republican, but the fact is, they exist.

There is no doubt that a number of people within the nationalist/republican community in Northern Ireland would like to see unity of Ireland. There is also no doubt that those living in the south of Ireland are abhorrent to the very thought of it. Throughout the troubles the southern Irish made no effort to hide their displeasure of "the black north" as they called it.

Queen coming to Dublin, articles 2 and 3 dropped by the Irish government, rugby and soccer played in Croke Park, there is your answer. Southern Irish NEVER wanted to inherit the north, I would love to see evidence stating otherwise.

Subject: RE: BS: The Irish Peace Process
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 04 Apr 11 - 10:35 AM

Jim, do you find no fault with the dissidents?
Only the Unionists?

Subject: RE: BS: The Irish Peace Process
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 04 Apr 11 - 11:19 AM

"Jim, do you find no fault with the dissidents?"
Of course I do - some of them, on both sides, are murdering scum.
I have pointed out that I have no brief for any side, but I have come to recognise, from family connections, from taking an active interest in Irish history and from living here, that while the border remains, so will the killing - we've had nearly ninety years so far - what's your solution - blame it on the children again - or say it's all over bar the shouting? Peter Robinson's and Martin McGuinness's statements today don't appear to bear you out.
Ireland is a political problem, not a criminal one.
"There is also no doubt that those living in the south of Ireland are abhorrent to the very thought of it."
Where did you get this extraordinary idea - at a rugby match?
The Black North referred to the fighting there, certainly not the ownership question.
Perhaps you and Keith could club together and buy a book, then get somebody to read it to you.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: The Irish Peace Process
From: Richie Black (misused acct, bad email)
Date: 04 Apr 11 - 12:20 PM

Jim, I have probably forgotten more about Northern Ireland than you ever amassed as knowledge in your lifetime. Have you ever been to the North ?

Jim, you are a freestater, and as such have no conception of the North of Ireland. You belong to a state that executed republicans since the 1920's. Maybe you should read up on Ballyseedy.

Also the executions of republicans in the 1940's, carried out by the southern government. Your nation offered a sprinkling of active support during operation Harvest (1956-62), also in the Omagh/Armagh raids of 1954.

Less than 1% of those sentenced or interned in Long Kesh/the Maze/Crumlin Road/Magilligan and Armagh women's prison were from the south of Ireland.

You come from a country that turned it's back on republicanism, any question you may have on Northern Ireland, please ask. Yes I had a professional interest in Northern Ireland before you ask.

Subject: RE: BS: The Irish Peace Process
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 04 Apr 11 - 04:15 PM

Jim, the Unionists have made it clear that they would fight rather than be subjugated against their will.
Get a 1% majority and you can have them and good riddance.
Without a majority you are looking at a real armed struggle, not peace.

Subject: RE: BS: The Irish Peace Process
From: Teribus
Date: 04 Apr 11 - 05:02 PM

I thought that everybody would have realised by now:

According to Jim Carroll there is only one correct "history of Ireland" (Be that North or South) and that is "the history of Ireland" according to Jim Carroll Irrespective of historical narrative, public record or substantiated personal statement.

Subject: RE: BS: The Irish Peace Process
From: Richie Black (misused acct, bad email)
Date: 04 Apr 11 - 06:57 PM

I do not generally get involved in debates or discussions concerning Northern Ireland. I do however understand the cause of Irish nationalism. I also understand that unionists living in Northern Ireland are hold a greater sense of loyalty to Queen and country than many of us living in mainland Britain.

I do not wish to denigrate Jim in this thread, but he clearly lacks an understanding of the situation over there. It seems somewhat strange that someone living in Milltown in County Clare should express republican aspirations. As I recall Seán O'Carroll, is the only County Clare volunteer to join the ranks of a Belfast battalion, then again, you have to go back to the 1920's for that example.

I do understand the nationalist community faced injustice concerning housing, the electoral system and employment in the province. These matters have long since been addressed. I think Mr. Carroll would have difficulty finding a member of the Northern Ireland nationalist community telling him otherwise.

If changes in the constitution of Northern Ireland are to occur, it will be for the 1.6 million people living there to decide. Not us living on the mainland, and certainly not those living in the Irish Republic.

I fear the biggest challenge to the peace process will occur after the May elections. Sinn Fein should take the office as First minister. Hardliners within unionism will find this a bitter pill to swallow and possibly through unity withdraw from government, subsequently collapsing the assembly. I feel Northern Ireland will eventually go back to direct rule within a decade. I hope I am proven to be wrong.

Jim expressing his aspirations of a united Ireland is as romantic as St, Patrick's day in New York. He is unrealistic and incapable of understanding the opinions of others.

Subject: RE: BS: The Irish Peace Process
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 05 Apr 11 - 02:17 AM

"I have probably forgotten more about Northern Ireland than you ever amassed as knowledge in your lifetime. "
"Jim, you are a freestater, "
Richie:
Apart from the fact that I'm a Brit living in Ireland, I have to thank you for your spectacularly illuminating history lesson.
The Irish Free State actually went out of existence 74 years ago when it was replaced by The Irish Republic in 1937.
"I do not generally get involved in debates or discussions concerning Northern Ireland."
And who's to blame you for that wise decision?
I think you might have forgotten a leeeeeeetle too much Irish history - don't you?
Now there are three of you, perhaps you can raise enough money to buy a bigger book with a little more up-to-date information, and maybe bigger print.
'Irish Free State - sheeeeesh!!'
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: The Irish Peace Process
From: Richie Black (misused acct, bad email)
Date: 05 Apr 11 - 04:23 AM

Clearly you haven't spent much time in the North of Ireland Jim, otherwise you would know "Freestater" is a derogatory term used in the north to describe someone living in Southern Ireland waving the rebel flag from the comfort of his armchair sitting at the fireside.

You come on here, dispute facts and figures, attempt to distort the truth and in doing so show your lack of understanding of the situation, you make an ass of yourself man.

I am more than willing to answer any question you put to me concerning Northern Ireland or pre 1922 Ireland.

Subject: RE: BS: The Irish Peace Process
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 05 Apr 11 - 12:30 PM

"Jim, you are a freestater, and as such have no conception of the North of Ireland."
Richie - your above sentence shows as little evidence that you were refering to an obscure (non existent) "derogatory term" as anything you have written so far shows the vaguest understanding of the present situation in Ireland - we can all make up excuses to cover our ignorance - you want to read some of Keithie's beauties!
Perthaps you might provide me with a reference of its use.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: The Irish Peace Process
From: Stringsinger
Date: 05 Apr 11 - 12:49 PM

I think that most people know that history is often rewritten to serve propagandistic
interests.

The politicization of Ireland is easily accessed.

The real history will show a deeper level of interrogation than found here.

Papists and Proddies have been at it for centuries.

Anyone from Ireland interested in a unity of these two opposing religious ideologies?

So where does the IRA come down on this issue?

It's the same old merry-go-round as found in Israel and the Palestinian territory.

In the US, certain factions are still fighting in the American Civil War.
In Ireland, The Battle of the Boyne.

Subject: RE: BS: The Irish Peace Process
From: Richie Black (misused acct, bad email)
Date: 05 Apr 11 - 01:50 PM

Jim, I have read through a lot of your earlier posts, I am sorry to say, you are like a horse with blinkers on. The situation in Ulster will run in cycles, like it has in the 1920's, 40's, 50's and 1969 onwards.

There will always be a level of resistance to British rule within a section of the community living in Northern Ireland. Britain will never give a declaration to leave Northern Ireland until the people living there demand a referendum.

The majority of those living there don't want a British withdrawal, the government of the Republic of Ireland certainly don't want to inherit the north.

It is down to numbers on the ground, the ground being the 1.6 million people living in Northern Ireland. Neither you or I have that call.

I think you will agree I don't run tit for tat stories past you, there are horrendous stories of grief on both sides, I lost someone dear to me a long time ago in Belfast. Calling it up or marking score cards of atrocities will get us nowhere.

You hold your opinion, allow others here to do likewise.

Subject: RE: BS: The Irish Peace Process
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 06 Apr 11 - 03:14 AM

"I am sorry to say, you are like a horse with blinkers on. "
Richie, coming frome someone whose knowledge of Ireland and how she is goverened is seventy years out of date, 'blinkered' rings more than a little hollow, don't you think?
We have all been affected by the violence in Ireland over the last decades. I have had family members and friends injured in the fighting. Earlier, I've had relatives burned out of their homes by Orange thugs and forced to seek refuge in the south.
I do not want a say in the running of Ireland, certainly no more of one than any other British citizen should have in maintaining peace keeping forces with my taxes, and having family members and friends living under the threat of being used as cannon-fodder to maintain order. But on the other hand, I do want any government that claims to speak for me to be answerable for what takes place there, be it the massacring of unarmed demonstators, or the allowing of annual violently intimidating sectarian marches leading to disorder, injury and even death.
Personally, I mistrust all nationalism - as far as I'm concerned people are far more important than national boundries or flags or accents or skin-colour.
But he fact remains, the partitioning off of a substantial part of any country is a grossly artificial and aggressive act which, as far as some people are concerned, is unacceptable enough to die and kill for. Had that partitioning been forced on the people of Britain as it was in Ireland, I have no doubt whatever that we would have seen the same slaughter there as has taken place since partitioning (and many centuries previously) both here and in mainland Britain.
I have no doubt that unification will happen - it appears to be happening at this time - no border, no travel restrictions, a gradual move to political equality..... it's all happening; but the longer that process takes, the more body-bags we'll have to count.
So as far as your accusations of naivety - you may take them and shove them where William shoved his ninepence, along with your Red Hand of Ulster.
Best,
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: The Irish Peace Process
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 06 Apr 11 - 03:55 AM

Jim,
"or the allowing of annual violently intimidating sectarian marches leading to disorder, injury and even death."

Can you justify that extraordinary statement?
Certainly not with reference to the parades of recent years!

Subject: RE: BS: The Irish Peace Process
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 06 Apr 11 - 04:14 AM

Don't feel the need to justify anything to you Keith - you've proved your worth elsewhere,
Come back when you know something
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: The Irish Peace Process
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 06 Apr 11 - 05:25 AM

An explanation to above, in case you or anybody is in doubt
You have spent the last few months proving to the world that you are a a racist.
The last thing I want to do with my time is discussing the rights and wrongs of anything to do with another race with you and your kind
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: The Irish Peace Process
From: Richie Black (misused acct, bad email)
Date: 06 Apr 11 - 05:45 AM

Jim, reading through this thread , there was once a number of members who shared similar views to yourself. Any idea where they are now ?

I spent a lot of time travelling to and fro to Northern Ireland over the years and met a lot of great people. I disagree that I am ignorant to the history of Ireland. Don't be afraid to test my knowledge at any time.

Subject: RE: BS: The Irish Peace Process
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 06 Apr 11 - 06:01 AM

So you are saying that you can justify that statement, but not to me.
You did not make it to me, but to the forum.
Justify it to the forum.
In recent years the parades have all been peaceful.
Haven't they Jim?
(And, you lie about me.)

Subject: RE: BS: The Irish Peace Process
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 06 Apr 11 - 06:12 AM

"You did not make it to me, but to the forum."
No - I made it to Richie Black - I've said all I have on the subject a dozen times over.
"Don't be afraid to test my knowledge at any time."
What's the point Richie - you hadn't even realised that Ieland had ceased being The Free State seventy-odd years ago.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: The Irish Peace Process
From: Richie Black (misused acct, bad email)
Date: 06 Apr 11 - 06:37 AM

Are you calling me a racist, Jim ?

Subject: RE: BS: The Irish Peace Process
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 06 Apr 11 - 07:20 AM

No Richie - where do you think I have?
A patronising and ignorant maybe!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: The Irish Peace Process
From: Richie Black (misused acct, bad email)
Date: 06 Apr 11 - 08:36 AM

Sorry, I read your post, "You have spent the last few months proving to the world that you are a a racist."

Then when Keith replied to you, you said "No - I made it to Richie Black -"

Subject: RE: BS: The Irish Peace Process
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 06 Apr 11 - 09:08 AM

My apologies - my point was made directly to Keith's behaviour on the Muslim thread - as far as I'm concerned, no-one is a racist until they make racist statements; as far as I know, you haven't, Keith has - apologies for the confusion.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: The Irish Peace Process
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 06 Apr 11 - 10:00 AM

Keith has not.
If I have post it up.
I am no racist and have never made a racist statement, here or anywhere else.
You are deranged.

Subject: RE: BS: The Irish Peace Process
From: GUEST,CrazyEddie
Date: 06 Apr 11 - 10:23 AM

A young man has been brutally murdered.
It seems that the GAA & the Northern Irish Police Service will both form Honour Guards at his funeral. (Bear in mind that until fairly recent times, British Soldiers & NI police were completely banned from playing Gaelic Games)
Prime Minister of the Republic, First Minister of NI(Unionist),& Deputy First Minister NI (SF)will all attend the funeral, and have all condemned the murder.
The vast majority of people in NI, RoI, and GB are totally disgusted by and utterly reject this violence.

Despite these tiny minority of terrorists, we have come a long way.
We must continue.

"What's done is done, & what's won is won,
And what's lost is lost and gone forever.
I can only pray, for a bright brand-new day
For the town I've loved so well."