English Culture - What is it?

Subject: RE: English Culture - What is it?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 19 Dec 08 - 10:00 PM

IB, your suggestion is concentrated gibberish.

Subject: RE: English Culture - What is it?
From: Don Firth
Date: 19 Dec 08 - 11:32 PM

Jim Carroll - on a couple of your posts above, well said, sir!

Don Firth

Subject: RE: English Culture - What is it?
From: GUEST,glueman
Date: 20 Dec 08 - 02:10 AM

Does anyone else think of Class War as a charming 1980's thing like leg warmers and rara skirts? England will turn Eat the Rich into another Coughs and Sneezes Spread Diseases, or Dig for Victory and have the poster in regional museums where you'll be able to buy it on a greetings card with pictures of pantile roofs and fingerposts and the history of the pork pie.
We are the Borg of Nations.

IB, I reckon your idea may have found its time.

Subject: RE: English Culture - What is it?
From: Spleen Cringe
Date: 20 Dec 08 - 03:40 AM

Jeffrey Lewis is excellent! Ever seen him perform? If not, do!

Subject: RE: English Culture - What is it?
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 20 Dec 08 - 04:06 AM

IB, your suggestion is concentrated gibberish.

Thanks, Richard - nice to have you on board!

IB (operating as TtAYC until 12th Night / Epiphany / Old Xmas Day)

Subject: RE: English Culture - What is it?
From: GUEST,glueman
Date: 20 Dec 08 - 04:19 AM

Folk without the yoke.

Subject: RE: English Culture - What is it?
From: GUEST,Jack Campin
Date: 20 Dec 08 - 04:29 AM

glueman (2.10AM), you've got it.

If Lizzie was a bit more thorough in her efforts to serve English nostalgia, Class War would be in her website along with Elgar, cricket and cream teas. (Or whatever - I don't do MurdochSpace on principle so I'm never going to look at it again).

Subject: RE: English Culture - What is it?
From: Spleen Cringe
Date: 20 Dec 08 - 04:58 AM

The reason at least one edition of Class War will get in the 'Great British Icons' retrospective of 2025 at the V&A and the front cover of, for example, Socialist Worker, won't is that Class war made it their mission, rather grandiosely, to compete with the tabloids. They didn't want densely written treatises on the proletarian, revolutionary and internationalist project to rebuilt the Fourth International via Marxist-Leninist parties as national sections of a democratic-centralist international, they just wanted a short, sharp shocking headline and an image that stuck in the brain. In that they certainly succeeded. For a small grouping with fairly conventional left communist politics underneath all the shouting, they had a reach and reputation far beyond their almost invisible political bedfellows. I reckon Ian Bone and his mates learned a few lessons from the Situationist International, if you ask me. Which no-one did.

This is how someone not a million miles from here critiqued Class War back in 1989. Of course, that same person has chilled out a hell of a lot since then...

Subject: RE: English Culture - What is it?
From: GUEST,lox
Date: 20 Dec 08 - 05:04 AM

Sorry jack,

But Jeffrey Lewis is about as non industry as they come and there is nothing about his excellently put together little bit of rhyming history that you can dispute.

Punk was alive and well in America long before the Brits took it to be their own.

It isn't "british" any more than it is french or japanese or any othe nationality in which the youth have embraced it as representing their sense of ennui and disillusionment with established norms ...

... like class war.

Subject: RE: English Culture - What is it?
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 20 Dec 08 - 05:33 AM

They didn't want densely written treatises on the proletarian, revolutionary and internationalist project to rebuilt the Fourth International via Marxist-Leninist parties as national sections of a democratic-centralist international

Neither did Socialist Worker, to be fair, but I take your point.

how someone not a million miles from here critiqued Class War

Ha! Another pro-situ unmasked! Where shall I send the denunciation?

Subject: RE: English Culture - What is it?
From: GUEST,glueman
Date: 20 Dec 08 - 05:42 AM

It's worth reminding ourselves that British punk grew out of a Kings Road fashion shop who made fetish wear desirable for the demimonde of mid-70s London. Overseen by a woman who was to become grande dame of catwalks worldwide and a man with a situationist arts background. Not very street, except perhaps with a capital S.
It did adopt a peculiarly British form, in much the way that rockers and greasers were different from Hells Angels but went into self parody before 1977 was out and died with the Sex Pistols.

Punk's legacy was to enfranchise a range of ideas, political, artistic and cultural which doff a cap to the spirit of '76 but who choose to forget its bourgeois, ironic roots. Some would say McLaren and Westwood saw what was happening and put it the shop front but either way commerce and The Man was there from the beginning.

Subject: RE: English Culture - What is it?
From: theleveller
Date: 20 Dec 08 - 05:47 AM

Class warfare is as indigenous to English culture as....er, anything else (diplomatically bland statement). It's been fermenting under the surface as long as there has been any form of society. Let's not forget that, for the most part, history has been written by the educated, privileged, landowning commentators. Fortunately, their views are being redressed by the likes of Tawney, Christopher Hill, Trotskyist historians like Reg Groves, Hyman Fagan and Rodney Hilton. They, of course, have their own axes to grind but at least they are redressing the balance of opinion.

For myself, I just echo the rallying cry of John Ball: When Adam delved and Eve span, who was then the gentleman?

A Merry Winter Solstice/Yuletide/Christmas/whatever to you all in your own concept of Merrie England, and peace and goodwill to all, except those miserable, greedy, unprincipled bastards who created the current economic crisis that's left me out of a job.

Subject: RE: English Culture - What is it?
From: Spleen Cringe
Date: 20 Dec 08 - 05:50 AM

Lox, I've always viewed British and US punk are different though intertwined beasts. British punk may have initially been influenced by the look and the attitude of the New Yorkers and by some of the US punk precursors (60s garage rock, the Velvets, The Stooges, the New York Dolls etc), but was equally, if not more influenced by Roxy Music, Bowie, Mott the Hoople, glam rock, the pub rock scene and other UK precursors. The Ramones, I give you, but I don't see much of Television, Patti Smith, Richard Hell and the Voidoids etc in bands like the Sex Pistols, The Clash and the Damned (well, maybe in the Damned a little...).

Personally I prefer the US model, and whilst Television's Marquee Moon will always be in my top twenty favourite ever albums, I tend more towards Ohio than either New York or the West Coast.

Incidently, here's the sainted Mr Lewis covering Crass's Banned From The Roxy live. His "Twelve Crass Songs" album is a corker. Were Crass, I wonder, an example of English culture? As they said, The Hippies Now Wear Black... and Crass did a very British, if not English, take on the whole hippy thing. Commune in Epping Forest and all that.

Finally, another thing about contemporary English culture: an abiding love of great American rock albums...

Subject: RE: English Culture - What is it?
From: GUEST,lox
Date: 20 Dec 08 - 06:35 AM

Spleen,

The thing I like about your post is that it doesn't just state "punk is british".

Too often the claim is made that 'america never had a punk revolution unlike Britian and thats why they'll never understand things like irony or get some other aspects of British culture' etc etc ... you know the kind of thing.

Jeffrey Lewis does well to dispel that Myth.

And by the way, yes I've seen Lewis twice and he is awesome live.

The first time, the show began with a bit of low fi punk noise with a dancer wearing a suit covered in hands which made me wonder initially whether it was going to be my thing or just a floppy teenage punk night.

Lewis himself was consistent with the spirit of that, but his lyrical mastery is something to behold.

He comes across as shy, awkward, geeky, unassuming and you'd miss him if it wasn't for the sense of hush and anticipation in the room that kept your mind open to the ossibility that something interesting was about to happen.

He deliberately plays his guitar in a simplistic non showy way and then mumbles at the crowd in a self effacing almost embarrassed voice like a teenager whose vocal chords are starting to change.

But then you are hit by his absolute mastery of the English language, his wit and his ability to refer in a very original way to numerous cultural influences.

There is nothing ostentatious or overdone about his language (unlike mine!!!) he makes everything sound simple and even a bit dumb, but comparing him to someone like steinbeck in this regard doesn't feel inappropriate to me - he is simple in style, but extremely sophisticated in content.

And that is his greatest strength. He sells himself purely on the strength of his wordcraft with the only arguable gimmick being a deliberate lack of Gimmicks.

My favourite song of his is his tribute to leonard cohens chelsea hotel

Subject: RE: English Culture - What is it?
From: Spleen Cringe
Date: 20 Dec 08 - 07:10 AM

Love the link. Not heard that one before.

Did he do the thing where he illustrates the songs with a series of his own hand drawn cartoons when you saw him? And that brilliant epic ballad about meeting Will Oldham on the Williamsburg Bridge?

Subject: RE: English Culture - What is it?
From: Spleen Cringe
Date: 20 Dec 08 - 07:41 AM

Talking of English culture, here's Jeffrey Lewis's illustrated history of The Fall.... I'll shut up and go and buy that sausage meat now.

Subject: RE: English Culture - What is it?
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 20 Dec 08 - 08:21 AM

"My favourite song of his is his tribute to leonard cohens chelsea hotel "

That's lovely!

Subject: RE: English Culture - What is it?
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 20 Dec 08 - 12:16 PM

"If Lizzie was a bit more thorough in her efforts to serve English nostalgia, Class War would be in her website along with Elgar, cricket and cream teas. (Or whatever - I don't do MurdochSpace on principle so I'm never going to look at it again)."

England, to me, is not about class war. It's not about punks either. That was a period of our history that I disliked intensely.
Mclaren and Vivienne Westwood do nowt for me at all.

I guess I've never been as angry as some of you people in here, as angry as some of the punks were. I never wanted to spit on people, nor wear bin bags, or follow the Emperor's New Clothes. I had a great deal in my younger life to be angry about, trust me, but I deal with it inside, never in the faces of other people.

The anger that hit my country with the Punk Era has never left. It divided it and it saddended me intensely. None of you saw what Class War was sending out to people via The Royal Mail, they did, because their customers rang up, filled with horror. When it was looked into more deeply, they were banned.

Malcolm McLaren, to me at least, seems to be a man with much hatred inside him...and having watched Vivienne Westwood recently on a documentary about her, I think she felt that he controlled her absolutely at that time. He controlled many things, but why the British Press turned him into some sort of God, along with the Punks themseleves, is beyond me.

My attitude to life is don't scream or spit in my face, if you do, you'll get short shrift. Wear whatever daft things you want, like whatever crappy music you want, and to me, the music of that period was total rubbish, but leave your foul manners out of my face, and out of my life. I'd not spit on you, so treat me with the same respect. The punks had no respect for anyone, they just wanted to shock.

Have a mohican, paint your hair pink, have it leopard spotted, whatever, I really don't mind, but don't, don't bring your bad, foul-mouthed manners and outlook into my face.

Good to know that Johnny Rotten is now an estate agent and loves England, albeit from afar. Not sure what the Queen thinks about him, maybe she quite likes him. Who knows.

30 years on this country is still ruled by foul manners and little respect, because that era made it 'acceptable'. It's not acceptable in my book and never has been.

But then, as I said, I'm not filled with rage against everyone and everything, just a rage at what has happened to my country, because I think it was done deliberately, and I don't think we've gained anything from it.

Subject: RE: English Culture - What is it?
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 20 Dec 08 - 12:54 PM

On Monday, 22 December, it is 6 years since Joe Strummer died.

The Clash / White Riot at Rock Against Racism 1978
The English in Victoria Park, fighting for and hanging onto their culture against a very real fascist threat. It's still out there and needs anger to counter it.

Subject: RE: English Culture - What is it?
From: Spleen Cringe
Date: 20 Dec 08 - 01:11 PM

Lizzie, I suspect you have missed the point of punk. "England's Dreaming" by Jon Savage is a good starting place if you want a well written insider's view.

Subject: RE: English Culture - What is it?
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 20 Dec 08 - 01:12 PM

Great book, Spleen.

Subject: RE: English Culture - What is it?
From: Stringsinger
Date: 20 Dec 08 - 02:21 PM

I think there is a definitive English folk music culture. I think this maybe the point of this
discussion. Certainly you could define the North Country Border rural music as "English" or areas such as Cornwall. There is an English ballad singing style. A.L. Lloyd or Ewan McColl has popularized it. Louis Killen as well. There seems to be a fiddling style that's unique to England.

I think Elizabethan Pro-Musica defines a tradition of Campion and Dowland which is
definitively English.

There is a Cockney music culture which as analogous to the city music halls of early America such as early Broadway or Second Avenue.

As in any country, there are regional styles that are a composite of the overall "culture".

As an outsider, I find that an English culture tends to be more subdued than the American one which is more bombastic like the German culture. These are gross generalizations, of course.

In the personalities on the stage, eccentricities of comics such as Monty Python,
the Goon Show, Spike Milligan, and even America's Danny Kaye seem to define a different emphasis on humor which tend toward the oddness of the characters. I think that English humor is different than in America which has more of a wise-cracking approach. The English appreciate the role of the clown in comedy. It's no accident that Stan Laurel and Charlie Chaplin instituted a brand of humor that is uniquely English in my opinion. I find the English Brit-coms equally reflective of British humor unlike the stuff from Stateside.

Ralph Vaughan Williams could not have originated in America, I believe. His music has
a distinctly English character as does Percy Granger.

The tunes of Henry the Eighth typify an English musical approach. "Pastime with Good Company" could not have been written anywhere in the world except England.

Then there's the poets.

I think a strong case can be made for English culture citing these examples for a start.

Subject: RE: English Culture - What is it?
From: Kampervan
Date: 20 Dec 08 - 03:16 PM

In a discussion about English culture I'm surprised that no-one has picked up on Ms Easby's posting re The Clash.

Whatever you thought about their musical style, they fought against racism and fascism; warning of the dangers of both in a way that was understandable to a whole generation.

They, and Joe Strummer especially, are sorely missed.

Subject: RE: English Culture - What is it?
From: Spleen Cringe
Date: 20 Dec 08 - 05:00 PM

What Diane and Kampervan said.

White Man in Hammersmith Palais

Subject: RE: English Culture - What is it?
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 20 Dec 08 - 06:53 PM

"Whatever you thought about their musical style, they fought against racism and fascism; warning of the dangers of both in a way that was understandable to a whole generation.

They, and Joe Strummer especially, are sorely missed."

Indeed. And their music was ace, too.

Subject: RE: English Culture - What is it?
From: GUEST,glueman
Date: 21 Dec 08 - 04:19 AM

'Fraid I'll have to be the odd man out on this one. The Clash were one of my least favourite punk bands and I saw them on a number of occasions. Worthy lectures on the state of society by a public school boy seemed to be exactly what Britain had plenty of. When they went reggae they really lost it.
Strummer in his pub rock days with the 101ers was far more endearing.

Subject: RE: English Culture - What is it?
From: Kampervan
Date: 21 Dec 08 - 04:25 AM

To be fair, Strummer couldn't help where he started out from. It's what he chose that's important, and he chose to highlight a lot of what was (is?) wrong with our society. That he wasn't alone doesn't diminish the relevance of what he was saying.

Subject: RE: English Culture - What is it?
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 21 Dec 08 - 04:28 AM

"Lizzie, I suspect you have missed the point of punk. "England's Dreaming" by Jon Savage is a good starting place if you want a well written insider's view"


Nope, I 'got' the message, but it wasn't delivered in a way I liked.

The huge anger that Mclaren has inside him for everything and everyone, was picked up on by those who had huge anger inside them too, over Thatcher, the miners strike, etc..etc..etc..

Punk became the voice of that anger. But most of the punks didn't really have a clue about all of that. They just latched on to the 'fashion' and er...'new English culture' side of it all. From that day, to this, respect for others kinda flew out the window in my country, as those who had always wanted to put the boot in to others did exactly that, driving many young people to a dark place, filling them with anger and vitriol against so many, many things.

I get kind of incensed when people deface Churchill's statue, or verbally spit on so many of those who gave *their* lives to give the punks, etc, the freedom to behave in such a loutish way. It wasn't what many of those men and women went to war for, not at all.

Freedom comes with many responsibilities. One of those is not willfully hurting others.

What's happened since Punk has been the biggest kind of 'inverted' snobbery, in my opinion, where anyone who comes from a place that's considered 'posh' is already loathed, without any personal contact ever having taken place, or they're despised because they don't speak 'estrry' English, or don't swear, or aren't Left wing, or don't read The Socialst Worker, or don't live the 'Eastenders' lifestyle, or maybe they went to public school, or grammar school, which wasn't even their choice, but that's never even considered...etc..etc..etc.

It's no different, in my book to many of those who lived in grand houses/palaces who looked down on those they considered lesser mortals.

All who think like that, are wrong.

This hatred betweeen 'them and us' should stop. It's gone on for way, way too long, and if England is ever going to get to a good place again, then she needs her people to let go of their hatred, not hatred against the rest of the world, but hatred for their own countrymen. The English people need to stop hating each other, and come together, seeing no class, no divide, just 'we'...

I know that you can be a Lord or Lady of this land and be the most compassionate and loving person. I also know that you can be a complete and utter bastard. Exactly the same can be said for a miner, or a dustman, or a shopworker, they too are either someone to have respect for because of their compassion and love for others, or someone to avoid like the plague, because of their hatred for so many things, and so many people who they don't want in their 'box'.

People are people. We are not supposed to live in boxes. Punks put people into boxes, like so many others did and still do. I don't think the Hippies did that. They loved everyone, Love was the message there, for me at least.

Love and Unity is the way forward.

Hatred and Division is the way to hell.

And if anyone wants to read a truly magical book on England, which will have you falling around with laughter at our beautiful eccentricites, and wiping away a tear at the beauty of our country, then I can't recommend Colin Irwin's 'In Search of Albion' highly enough.

Subject: RE: English Culture - What is it?
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 21 Dec 08 - 04:37 AM

Joe Strummer & The Mescaleros:

Redemption Song

Bankrobber

Subject: RE: English Culture - What is it?
From: GUEST,Woody
Date: 21 Dec 08 - 04:54 AM

The huge anger that Mclaren has inside him for everything and everyone, was picked up on by those who had huge anger inside them too, over Thatcher, the miners strike, etc..etc..etc..

Punk became the voice of that anger.

Ummmmmm! I'm a bit old and my memory is fuzzy, but weren't Thatcher & the miners Strike after Punk?

Subject: RE: English Culture - What is it?
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 21 Dec 08 - 05:00 AM

They certainly were (the 2nd Miners' Strike anyway).
The Strummer vids I just posted have mysteriously become unavailable. Here are some dups:

Redemption Song

Bankrobber

Subject: RE: English Culture - What is it?
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 21 Dec 08 - 05:06 AM

From LC: "...in my country..."

but this is OUR country. For many people, punk was a seminal cultural movement, the positive repercussions of which can still be felt today. For many people, football is absolutely fundamental to their cultural identity.

When it comes to defining what "English culture" is, these are both examples of why the answer must contain a plurality of visions, rather than some shared ersatz nostalgia for village greens and milkmaids.

As Billy Bragg once said: "Identity is purely personal. It only becomes a problem when someone else tells you what you are."

Subject: RE: English Culture - What is it?
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 21 Dec 08 - 05:25 AM

Yup, it's OUR country, but it's also MY country, same for anyone else who loves England.

You like the punk movement, that's fine by me. Your choice is your choice and you are entitled to it. I didn't like it, nor what went with it, or what is left over from it. This country has been at war within itself for way too long.

Village greens exist still to this day, as do many other things from an England that many want to wipe out. We are a mixture of old and new, not just new, and that is what I have a problem with, being made to feel that I do not have a right to the England I grew up in.

I do.

It was and is my England. And it always will be.

Subject: RE: English Culture - What is it?
From: The Sandman
Date: 21 Dec 08 - 05:28 AM

I get kind of incensed when people deface Churchill's statue, or verbally spit on so many of those who gave *their* lives to give the punks, etc, the freedom to behave in such a loutish way. It wasn't what many of those men and women went to war for, not at all.
Is it not bad to deface anyones statue?
however his record as a wartime leader has to be seen in relation to his record as a peace time leader.,and home secretary.and other positions of office.
Churchill was a good wartime leader,and was the right man who was needed at that time.
However in his dealings with   DeVelera,[irish neutrality],he gave the impression to Develera of untrustworthiness,because of Churchills history[including his involvement in the irish free state peace treaty],this was[imo] a reasonable assumption on De veleras part,
a great opportunity to unite Ireland was missed,Churchill must take a lot of the blame.

Subject: RE: English Culture - What is it?
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 21 Dec 08 - 05:31 AM

Give me the football and polite attitudes of Geoff Hurst, Bobby Charlton. Bobby Moore, Jack Charlton, George Best et al. Then, I might enjoy a football match again.

Subject: RE: English Culture - What is it?
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 21 Dec 08 - 05:33 AM

"Magical" books about England:

News From Nowhere
A Dream Of John Ball
The Pilgrims Of Hope

by William Morris.

Subject: RE: English Culture - What is it?
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 21 Dec 08 - 05:37 AM

"This country has been at war within itself for way too long."

I have heard this from you endlessly, but still don't understand what you mean by it.

If your version of English history is to be believed, there was never any division or dissent in England until the 70s and 80s, until miners strikes and punk. Do you really believ that this is when the class war began?

But dissent is as fundamental a part of English history as your village greens, Lizzie. Being ignorant of it, or choosing to pretend it didn't exist, doesn't make it any less real. Read Billy Bragg's The Progressive Patriot. Listen to Chris Wood. Go to see Roy Bailey and Tony Benn's The Writing On The Wall. These would all be good starting points if you want to begin to understand a vital and vibrant part of your heritage.

By the way, I live in a village, with church bells and a green. But I'm not daft enough to think that my way of life is in any way emblematic of the wider English experience in 2008.

Subject: RE: English Culture - What is it?
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 21 Dec 08 - 05:46 AM

"polite attitudes" of George Best??!!! the originator of the pisshead, womanising, money-squandering, shallow, cult-of-celebrity lifestyle which has swamped the modern game??

Subject: RE: English Culture - What is it?
From: theleveller
Date: 21 Dec 08 - 06:05 AM

"Magical" books about England:

News From Nowhere
A Dream Of John Ball
The Pilgrims Of Hope

by William Morris.

Can I just add: Mark O'Brien's "When Adam Delved and Eve Span", Christopher Hill's "Liberty Against the Law" and Christopher Hibbert's "The English"?

"By the way, I live in a village, with church bells and a green."

I live in a village which has the remains of the only castle in East Yorkshire. The castle was built by Harry Hotspur and legend has it that he took all the men of the village to fight at the Battle of Otterburn, where they were all (except Hotspur) killed. The local "squire" still owns the castle and a large tranch of the land around and still likes to think he can all the shots on the parish council. He is, however, now opposed (by mrsleveller, so maybe thinks have changed just a little in th last 600 years.

Subject: RE: English Culture - What is it?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 21 Dec 08 - 06:45 AM

Did you ever meet George Best, Lizzie? I did, in his boutique in Manchester. Arguably the best footballer ever but never known as a polite man. And most of the footballers of his day were just as ruthless as their modern counterparts on the field; you just never saw it. They were just like the modern players off the field as well. Some good, some bad. Just like most people realy. Maybe you need the rose-tinted lenses changing?

DeG

Subject: RE: English Culture - What is it?
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 21 Dec 08 - 06:54 AM

Not only was George Best all the things Ruth said, he was just a little bit Irish and not at all English.

Subject: RE: English Culture - What is it?
From: GUEST,glueman
Date: 21 Dec 08 - 07:16 AM

I wrote a well argued (for me) response all this but the software sent it to all hell. Can't be arsed to bother any more.

Subject: RE: English Culture - What is it?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 21 Dec 08 - 07:46 AM

Dave
The First Time (Ever) I was introduced to Ewan and Peggy was after a concert at MSG in Manchester.
We were all standing outside when a taxi pulled up and a smart young man got out and headed to the night club next door.
A friend, a football nut (City supporter, which qualifies him for the title 'nut') said, "That's Georgie Best".
Peggy said, "Who's Georgie Best, and on being told that he was the world's greatest footballer (if you don't count Liverpool and Liverpool reserves), she sprinted after him and got his autograph (for Calum, of course!!!)
I agree with Ruth - especially about football and class.
"Is it not bad to deface anyones statue?"
Probably - just as it is bad to destroy a work of art like the Sutherland painting of the old, cold warrior, as was done by the Churchill family.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: English Culture - What is it?
From: The Sandman
Date: 21 Dec 08 - 08:21 AM

Churchills war time record,needs to be seen in relation to his peace time record,he was a war hero,but he was a failure[imo] as a peace time prime minister,he also missed a great opportunity to give Ireland its freedom during world war two[which would have saved thousands of lives in the island of Ireland],it was hardly surprising that De Velera did not trust him.
defacing anyones statue is pretty pointless,whether they are Churchill,or George W Bush,or whoever.
destroying works of art because they are not to your liking is Vandalism.

Subject: RE: English Culture - What is it?
From: GUEST,Mary Brennan
Date: 21 Dec 08 - 08:30 AM

There have been some really interesting points made in this discussion. I don't think there can ever be a definitive definition of 'English' Culture, as we all interpret it in different ways. The recent discussion on punk proves that. Lizzie, YOUR England isn't the same as other people's England - but that's OK, surely? Can't you learn to be tolerant? Just because someone has different ideals and a different vision from you, doesn't mean that they're wrong.

Subject: RE: English Culture - What is it?
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 21 Dec 08 - 08:49 AM

"Village greens exist still to this day, as do many other things from an England that many want to wipe out."

Another thing - can you tell me who the "many" are? And can you identify what they're doing to wipe out this England?

Is it just me, or can anyone else hear Ray Davies playing in the background...?

Subject: RE: English Culture - What is it?
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 21 Dec 08 - 09:14 AM

Village greens get threatened from time to time, but by greedy middle-class developers who think it might be nice to build houses on them for city-dwelling mates who can afford somewhere else to go at the weekend. Opposing that is all well and good but of far greater importance is the threat to the many ordinary little people from big business / municipal expansion of airports, trunk roads and commercial development of no relevance or benefit to them.

"They're going to build a motorway through my back garden
No-one can explain how I came to be chosen
They're going to build a motorway, they're ripping up the trees
Soon the lorries will be lurching through my cabbages and peas".

That's why the working classes get angry and rise up. Though not nearly often enough. It's somehow not English to do so. Bollocks.

Subject: RE: English Culture - What is it?
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 21 Dec 08 - 09:15 AM

Bugger, missed the Leon Rosselson credit off that.

Subject: RE: English Culture - What is it?
From: theleveller
Date: 21 Dec 08 - 11:40 AM

"Though not nearly often enough. It's somehow not English to do so."

Sometimes, just sometimes, it works, though. They tried to build a Sainsbury's on allotments in our nearby little market town. There was a lot of protest and it was finally stopped - they still built a Sainsbury's but at least not on the allotments and, hopefully, the majority of people will continue to use the family-owned shops in town.

Subject: RE: English Culture - What is it?
From: Sleepy Rosie
Date: 21 Dec 08 - 12:28 PM

I've been observing this thread for a bit.

But one of the more inwittingly pertinant responses for me, came from Don Firth way back. An intended amusing repost saying something akin to "isn't culture what you grow in a petri dish".

Well I must admit, despite taking a quick dip into the etymology of "Culture" (as is my wont) I failed to organise any thought fully worthy of communicating on the matter.

Nevertheless, Don's energetically scented, fertile coagulation of fermenting human thought and life, appeals far more to me than, the sterile unproductive leavings of reminiscence.

And as for IB's response. What a brilliant resignation of the bonds of domination implicit in the yoke of 'but a word'. Well said Gervase indeed.