English Culture - What is it?

Subject: RE: English Culture - What is it?
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 22 Dec 08 - 03:12 PM

I've read that Vanburgh considered SDH his masterpiece, in principle anyway as his vision was never fully realised. I once asked him (or at least the spectral Thespian that lurked around Castle Howard a few years back) his opinion on the matter and he looked frankly baffled (there's a moral here of course, don't visit country houses whilst pissed, but it was our honeymoon...). It's a haunted landscape for sure, with the ghost of Sir Francis D lurking in the sea fret along with those of the 199 Miners of Hartley who died in the disaster of 1862. So much for social class, eh?

Subject: RE: English Culture - What is it?
From: Nerd
Date: 22 Dec 08 - 03:13 PM

Well, that "300" wasn't English culture, but it's internet culture, as well as "Mudcat culture." And, I realize, slightly obnoxious...

Subject: RE: English Culture - What is it?
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 22 Dec 08 - 03:13 PM

"There are many who can't afford a season ticket for Sidmouth Folk Week"

"and this is relevant how, exactly? I have already said that I understand why the NT has to charge, and certainly understand why festivals need to charge. My (relatively light-hearted) point was simply that the NT's slogan might be slightly misleading, or at least open to misinterpretation."


Nope, the way it was written, imo, was to knock The National Trust, making out that their charges were exorbitant, (they're not, as I pointed out to you) and to make out that many people couldn't afford to partake of the beautiful places they have saved. Both those things are totally wrong, as I again pointed out, because much countryside and coast owned by The National Trust has entirely free and open access to the public and it always will.

When Fiona Reynolds took over running the NT, she knew that many of us these days lead busy lives, and get little time to enjoy the countryside and open areas. She wanted to ensure that as much access as possible was given to everyone, on National Trust land, so that all could enjoy themselves as often as they wanted to. If you want to support the NT on here, then it would be nice, if, just for once, you could forget who is writing the details of these messages, take the blinkers off and see what I am writing for what it actually is, rather than going through it with a fine tooth comb seeing if there is anything you can pick me up on, twist, spin, put into a bad light, belittle, or basically be a smart arse about. The National Trust, to me, and millions of other people, is very important, and to try to make out that many can't enjoy it, as you were doing earlier, purely to, in my opinion, score 'points' is a real pain in the backside, because the NT matter, and....they matter hugely.

The comparison to a folk festival ticket was made to put your comments into perspective, which was perfectly clear. For a family ticket for most festivals, I'd have to pay a small fortune, around ooh..£300 ???? That is for just one week. The National Trust family membership for 52 weeks of the year would cost £61/86 depending on how you were paying. For that you'd get open access and free entry to all NT properties throughout Britain, for the entire day, for almost every single day of the year. In the winter months, this would be mainly for the gardens alone, which are still kept very beautiful during that time. And you'd still have hundreds and hundreds, thousands in fact, of acres of incredible land to enjoy, which is entirely free to you, your family and friends, throughout this beautiful country. So, for the final time....'Forever, for Everyone' means exactly that.

And just one final thing:

>>>"Why do you insist on mentioning the fact that my boyfriend tried to buy a calendar from your shop? What does it prove, except that he wanted a calendar? Do I refer to your ex huspand or the boyfriend who ran a mile when he realised what a nutcase you were? Does the fact that I set foot inside the shop where you work detract from the fact that 99% of what the National trust shops sell is twee, sentemental and nostalgic? "<<<

...I didn't reply, last night.

You have said many foul things about my ex-husband and myself, using any opportunity you can. You also, along with your band of buddies, launched a totally unwarranted and unpleasant attack on Sam, for no reason whatsover, other than he was associated with me. You knew and still know nothing about him, or my relationship with him, or anyone else for that matter, because you know nothing about my private life. Yet, you fill these threads with lies and vicious words about me, which you so willingly choose to use. Again, that is your choice entirely. Why you do it, I've no idea, only you have that answer.

I mentioned Derek coming into the shop, that was all. I did not say anything about your personal life, or about any relationship. You did that. Obviously you are going to know him, because Derek too works for Sidmouth. I have never mentioned anything about your private life, nor would I. The reason I mentioned him, was to point out that whilst you thought the NT sells nothing but 'twee' stuff, (that is just your opinion, not 'fact') Derek obviously doesn't feel that way, as he came in to buy something from us. You may dislike what we sell, that is entirely your right, but please remember, there are millions of people out there who love much of what we stock, and the money the shops raise, helps to ensure that all our members and non-members too, get to enjoy everything, including places such as Newton's garden, which you said you liked visiting.

I wish you well. I wish you a good Christmas and New Year. I wish you success in Sidmouth. I also wish you'd get off my back and stop being bitchy, condescending, lying and unpleasant.

Thank you.



>>>"Personally, I think there is a differentiation between civic , municipal and government buildings which should, in an ideal world, be symbols of the democratic process, and those buildings, epitomised by stately homes, which, as symbols of personal greed, oppression and social superiority, are there to "prove the upper classes have still the upper hand". "<<<

'To prove the upper classes have still the upper hand'...Really?

But they've given up their stately homes because they can't afford to live in them any longer.

That's defeat, not the upper hand.

Subject: RE: English Culture - What is it?
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 22 Dec 08 - 03:27 PM

Diane: "As a child, I used to play among the ruins of Rievaulx Abbey. Now you have to pay to get in. You could also just walk up to the stones at Stonehenge, or right to the edge at Land's End. Now you can't. Someone's collecting the dosh. Even in a church, there's someone following you round with a collection tin. The state ought to be providing upkeep on our behalf for historic buildings and ancient sites out of the taxes we pay but have no say in how they are spent. And the National Trust could close down its tat shops and use the premises for a more edifying purpose."


Yes, you could walk up to the stones at Stonehenge, and then English Heritage came along. Not the NT. Now, you can't even touch the stones. Something had to be done to stop vandalism ruining that site, because sadly, we now live in a society that doesn't give a shite about our anciet sites or history, because two generations have been denied it and don't have a clue how much it matters.

Perhaps the Trust would have arranged it so that you could still touch the stones, but they were protected and kept safe from harm, who knows. I think English Heritage have got it wrong, personally.

HJang on, it would cost the state hundreds of millions of pounds to keep all our ancient sites, buildings, stately homes, castles etc..renovated and in the beautiful condition that The Trust keeps them.

I can just hear the screams of indignation from those who don't even want our stately homes saved, if they had no option but to pay for their upkeep out of their taxes. They'd be fuming! This way, at least, those who DO care, pay to go into the properties, leave The National Trust money in their wills, raise money themselves, whatever it takes..and those who loathe what they stand for and have no interest in history, don't have to pay a single penny.

Surely, that is a far fairer way.

The shops earn the NT a great deal of money. We are one of the busiest shops in Sidmouth, all year round.

Subject: RE: English Culture - What is it?
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 22 Dec 08 - 03:39 PM

Blah blah blah...usual tripe. Usual complete and utter maniacal rubbish from the banshee. I honestly can't even be arsed to refute your more outlandish claims anymore, love. And I won't begin to try to explain the concept of state ownership and shared resources.

Bored now.

Subject: RE: English Culture - What is it?
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 22 Dec 08 - 03:39 PM

Ooooh, there's a tough one.
Where could the state possibly make savings and so pay for cultural upkeep?
Not by cutting back on military spending or handouts to financial institutions. Oh no.

Subject: RE: English Culture - What is it?
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 22 Dec 08 - 03:42 PM

Hahaha, and I almost recommended The Origin of the Family, Private Property and the State.
Waste of bloody time.

Subject: RE: English Culture - What is it?
From: theleveller
Date: 23 Dec 08 - 03:32 AM

"'To prove the upper classes have still the upper hand'...Really?

But they've given up their stately homes because they can't afford to live in them any longer.

That's defeat, not the upper hand."

Damn - my humorous analogies have backfired once again. Lizzie, listen to the rest of Noel Coward's 'Stately Homes of England' and I think you'll get the gist.


"As a child, I used to play among the ruins of Rievaulx Abbey. Now you have to pay to get in. You could also just walk up to the stones at Stonehenge, or right to the edge at Land's End."

Diane, The tallest standing stone in England is Rudston Monolith, in the churchyard of the beautiful Yorkshire Wolds village of Rudston. You can touch it, hug it, sit with your back to it and have a picnic or play some appropriate music. It's a wonderful experience and hardly anyone knows about it. Also, you can still walk up to the edge of the cliffs at Flamborough Head or Bempton. Fortunately, there are still magical places in England that are free to anyone who cares to discover them. These are the inspirations for much of my music.

Subject: RE: English Culture - What is it?
From: Folkiedave
Date: 23 Dec 08 - 03:58 AM

I think that programme on the English Village Carols on Breakfast TV showed British culture at its best.

Irreverence, religion, community, talent, history..........what more could a person want?

Subject: RE: English Culture - What is it?
From: theleveller
Date: 23 Dec 08 - 04:08 AM

"Irreverence, religion, community, talent, history..........what more could a person want?"

Beer?

Subject: RE: English Culture - What is it?
From: Tangledwood
Date: 23 Dec 08 - 04:09 AM

Do the Christmas traditions of peace and goodwill to all still feature in English culture?

Subject: RE: English Culture - What is it?
From: Joseph P
Date: 23 Dec 08 - 04:26 AM

"Also, you can still walk up to the edge of the cliffs at Flamborough Head or Bempton. "

After paying the entrance fee ...

Subject: RE: English Culture - What is it?
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 23 Dec 08 - 04:38 AM

Here's a little bit of what I'd like to put in my English Culture drawer...

'Carry On' Culture


;0)


Cripes, I miss Sid James, and his deliciously naughty chuckle. But then, I miss the 'Carry On' team in general, and that naughty humour we once had, were allowed to have, when we were all able to laugh together.

Great humour. Sadly missed.

Subject: RE: English Culture - What is it?
From: theleveller
Date: 23 Dec 08 - 04:48 AM

""Also, you can still walk up to the edge of the cliffs at Flamborough Head or Bempton. "

After paying the entrance fee ... "

Oh, no. That's happened since the last time I was there. Bugger!

Subject: RE: English Culture - What is it?
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 23 Dec 08 - 04:55 AM

Sid James was a South African Jew.

Subject: RE: English Culture - What is it?
From: Folkiedave
Date: 23 Dec 08 - 05:07 AM

and that naughty humour we once had, were allowed to have, when we were all able to laugh together.

We had all sorts of things in them days we don't have now.

Rickets, diptheria, rheumatic fever, scarlet fever.

Mind you could still get a tanner's worth of chips, a bag of monkey nuts, a trip to the cinema, bus there and back, and still have change from sixpence. (Thanks Tony).

Subject: RE: English Culture - What is it?
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 23 Dec 08 - 05:11 AM

"Sid James was a South African Jew."



Sid James was a man.

A very funny man. He was also a wonderful part of English humour, as were the Carry On Films.

As I said earlier, I don't put people into boxes.

Subject: RE: English Culture - What is it?
From: Joseph P
Date: 23 Dec 08 - 05:12 AM

'itler ....

Subject: RE: English Culture - What is it?
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 23 Dec 08 - 05:38 AM

I don't put people into boxes.

A job best left for the undertaker I would have thought, which in Sid's case was on the 26th of April 1976 when he died on stage at The Sunderland Empire. A piece of resonant personal lore here, because Sunderland were playing at home that same night (Roker Park!) and the next day my mate Eric Burnett (a devoted SAFC fan who had been at the match) solemnly intoned: I wouldn't care, but I saw the ambulance - words that have haunted me for nigh on 33 years...

Subject: RE: English Culture - What is it?
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 23 Dec 08 - 05:56 AM

Sorely missed.

I didn't realise he'd died on stage. Tommy Cooper and Eric Morecambe too, as I recall. I think it's the way they'd all have wanted to go.


And St. Trinians, gotta have the St. Trinians lasses in there too. Joyce Grenfell, Alistair Sim, George Cole. Great films. (don't like the new one, I'm afraid)

And talking of Alistair Sim, and Charles Dickens, and Christmas....

A bit of a treat....Bah! Humbug!

Subject: RE: English Culture - What is it?
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 23 Dec 08 - 06:02 AM

I'm beginning to get the hang of this brand of logic.
A comedian of whatever provenence becomes "English" as a result of an affair with Peggy Mitchell.

Subject: RE: English Culture - What is it?
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 23 Dec 08 - 06:06 AM

Pointless observation:
Where Roker Park used to stand is a hell of a long way from the Sunderland Empire. How did you know it was the right ambulance?
It's said that Les Dawson was so spooked by a sighting of Sid James' ghost in the dressing room that he refused to play the venue. So, not all bad news . . .

Subject: RE: English Culture - What is it?
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 23 Dec 08 - 06:37 AM

"I'm beginning to get the hang of this brand of logic.
A comedian of whatever provenence becomes "English" as a result of an affair with Peggy Mitchell."

Nope, I don't have a racist view of 'being English'....Sid James was part of our culture. Where he came from, or what his religion was, doesn't matter at all. Neither does who he slept with. And I think you'll find that ALL the Carry On Ladies, loved Sid dearly. And to be honest, whether he slept with one, or all of them, who gives a darn.

I also happen to like Barbara Windsor, for her bright, sunny personality and for the way she's always been able to laugh at herself, even through some pretty tough times.

I find Eastenders a real downer though, and I think it's contributed greatly to modern England and the in yer face loutish attitude of so many. The storylines make me stare in horror most of the time, as they're so often filled with hatred and abuse. Children watch that, young children. It's one of the things I wish the BBC would get rid of. The scriptwriters...(writers???) need a good kick up the whatsit for the messages they're putting out there.



Here's some great English Giggles...

The Vicar of Dibley

Subject: RE: English Culture - What is it?
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 23 Dec 08 - 06:40 AM

And of course, you can't have Dawn French (above), without her equally talented and very funny husband:

The Lenny Henry Show

Subject: RE: English Culture - What is it?
From: The Sandman
Date: 23 Dec 08 - 07:44 AM

English culture,is diverse it has to include all the nauseous soaps,The Sun newspaper,bums, tits, football,cricket,croquet,polo,Shakespeare,Morris Dancing,Sword Dancing,EFDSS,Public Schools,Fox Hunting,Greyhound racing,bareknucle fist fighting.

Subject: RE: English Culture - What is it?
From: GUEST,glueman
Date: 23 Dec 08 - 08:49 AM

The kitchen sink has totally dominated English sensibilities for years now. Eastenders purports to reflect 'real lives' and promote catharsis but that reality is as much a fiction as Brief Encounter or The Greengage Summer. It's mostly either Japanese style torture tv or a bedlam tour. I've almost totally given up television, seen about three programmes this year on my son's telly. Wretched, desparate stuff the lot of it.

I have a personal bit of Tommy Cooper lore. Walking through the back alleys of the West End in the early hours a little the worse for wear minding my own business but with nobody much about when a side door opened next to me and a figure stepped out.
'Goodnight' it said.
Odd in itself for central London and it sounds like Tommy Cooper. It was. He raised a hand and smiled and I did the same back and went on my way. The next night he was dead. Nice chap and very funny.

Subject: RE: English Culture - What is it?
From: Dave Hanson
Date: 23 Dec 08 - 09:14 AM

Sid James was a very nice man and Hitler was good to his mother.

eric

Subject: RE: English Culture - What is it?
From: Joseph P
Date: 23 Dec 08 - 10:17 AM

What part do the Carry On films have to play in contemporary English culture?

hmmm....

Subject: RE: English Culture - What is it?
From: Dave Sutherland
Date: 23 Dec 08 - 12:22 PM

Ah - 26th April 1976 night of my 28th birthday and my girlfriend(now wife) had a three way choice as a surprise for me:-

Book tickets for the Sunderland Empire

Get tickets for the match Sunderland v Leeds

Book a table in a local restaurant

she chose the latter and the place was infested with mice (and I think Sunderland lost 1-0)

Really bad night all round

Subject: RE: English Culture - What is it?
From: Sleepy Rosie
Date: 23 Dec 08 - 12:36 PM

English Culture...? My top three votes go to:

2000 AD
The Mighty Boosh
Some Olden Days Geezer

Subject: RE: English Culture - What is it?
From: GUEST,glueman
Date: 23 Dec 08 - 01:45 PM

other england

Subject: RE: English Culture - What is it?
From: Nerd
Date: 23 Dec 08 - 02:23 PM

I kind of understand why Diane would bring up James's being South African (hence, presumably, not English). But why bring up that he was a Jew?

Subject: RE: English Culture - What is it?
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 23 Dec 08 - 02:44 PM

Because, other than being American, the combination is about as far removed from an instrinsically English cultural stereotype as you can get. As is George Best, a sozzled Irish (Catholic, I think) "sports personality"). It is merely a further illustration of just how off-topic the OP strays in the entirely hopeless bid to validate a non-existent point.

Coincidentally (and uninterestingly), both Sid James and George Best feature in the list of Peggy Mitchell's exes.

Subject: RE: English Culture - What is it?
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 23 Dec 08 - 03:43 PM

Just finished listening to a very interesting and relevant programme on Radio 4:

Great White Hopes

Not available on Listen Again, unfortunately, but really worth trying to catch when it's repeated on 28 Dec at 5pm.

Subject: RE: English Culture - What is it?
From: Bonnie Shaljean
Date: 23 Dec 08 - 05:40 PM

I've just managed to listen to it through the page Ruth linked to (maybe They sneaked it in there after she posted). I was even able to get the TV clip of the Yorkshire carols (take a bow, Folkiedave) from Diane's link in that thread, though we're not supposed to be able to receive the telly ones here in Ireland. So it's worth another try - interesting programme.

Subject: RE: English Culture - What is it?
From: Nerd
Date: 23 Dec 08 - 07:09 PM

Diane,

I take your point.

On the other hand, J.R.R. Tolkien has a German name, was born in Bloemfontein to parents who were born British subjects (as Sid James's probably were--though I'm not sure), and was Catholic. Yet he was also a typical Oxford Don, and is seen by many as a stereotypical (even archetypal) Englishman.

Other people seen as typically English these days (such as Mike Leigh, Helena Bonham Carter, George Michael, and Daniel Radcliffe) are Jews. (As Jonathan Miller might say "I'm not a Jew! I'm JewISH....")

It seems to me that Lizzie including Irish and South African immigrants to England who made a contribution to English culture is not necessarily out of bounds. I haven't seen Lizzie talk about "an instrinsically English cultural stereotype" [sic]; that's your wording. She asked what English culture is, and for her it includes (at least some) immigrants who make a contribution to the cultural scene in England. I believe you actually agree with this assessment, so where is the incongruity?

I realize that whatever argument is going on here has gone on for years, and will continue to go on without my input, but from what's here on this thread I can't see why you'd disagree that these people are part of English culture.

George Best, BTW, was neither "Catholic" nor "Protestant" in the usual Belfast sense of the word. He was Presbyterian, which in Ireland is a whole separate category. Remember "Galway Races": "The Catholic, the Protestant, the Jew and Presbyterian."

Subject: RE: English Culture - What is it?
From: GUEST,lox
Date: 23 Dec 08 - 07:23 PM

Diane,

So George Best is not representative of English culture?

Try telling that to a Man U fan.

I am concerned that you see a distinction between Jewish culture and English culture as Judaism is a religion not a nationality and English Jews may feel that distinction to be an inappropriate way to discriminate.

Jews have been Living in England since Roman times at least - which means they have been here at least as long as "the christians" who - off the top of my head - didn't get here till about 300AD, which makes them a pretty integral part of British culture despite the persecution they have received fairly consistently since then.

I am intrigued that you see a distinction between Jewish culture and English culture as Judaism is a religion so you might find that English Jews consider that distinction to be inappropriate grounds to discriminate.

I don't know the history of your little spat, but you are coming out with some seriously borderline stuff and I would add, in a pretty charmless way.

I Disagree with what I perceive to be Lizzies judgemental approach to some aspects of English culture that don't fit her frame of reference, but whether she be mad sane or otherwise, she's coming across a lot better in this thread and on others where I have encountered her than some of her critics.

Subject: RE: English Culture - What is it?
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 23 Dec 08 - 10:45 PM

Judaism is an ethno-religious group, not merely a religion. The Jews, in common with other European countries throughout history at various times, were expelled from Britain in 1290 as a race on these grounds.

The Irish (of whichever religion), similarly, have been oppressed by the British as a race, militarily, politically and economically ever since conquest. Six of their counties still languish under British occupation.

While representatives of such backgrounds may live in in "enlightened" England today and play an equal part in a diverse culture, they are not ethnically English, nor are they representative of English culture although they may contribute to it. This is a lazy description of a "white" resident who may, rightly, feel insulted at being lumped in with the oppressor, and is a clear hangover of imperialism.

Subject: RE: English Culture - What is it?
From: GUEST,Joseph P
Date: 24 Dec 08 - 03:52 AM

Jew, sitting there
being Jewish
To this street
his face is newish

He saw a frog
hopping along
and so he sang
a froggy song

'hop along
little green friend
may your mad hopping
never end'

the frog then leaped
into the road
where by a fast car
down he was mowed

Subject: RE: English Culture - What is it?
From: Dave Hanson
Date: 24 Dec 08 - 03:54 AM

George Michael jewish ? he's a Greek Cypriot FFS.

eric

Subject: RE: English Culture - What is it?
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 24 Dec 08 - 03:58 AM

Sigh....

George Best was part of the England World Cup Squad, as well as Man. United...and...he was part of one of the BEST England World Cup Squads, ever.

Sid James was part of the Carry On team, who were hugely popular in England, and Britain generally, to be honest, probably around the world. But the humour leans far more to English humour than Scots, Welsh or Irish, perhsaps.

There is *no* such thing as an 'English stereotype', nor has their ever been, in my book. English culture, to me, is not about that, it's not about being white and being born and raised in England for 100 generations or more. It's about being part of the country, part of the country's history, part of its culture, part of something which means a great deal to many people, part of something people from abroad may think of as being intrinsically 'English'....as we may think about something intrinsically 'Russian' or 'African'.

Heck, the people of the world are all going to fall in love with each other, eventually and marry or live with one another. Humans will one day start to become pretty much one colour, and will see each other as people, at long, long last. It's already happening in our lifetime, hugely accelerated forwards from when we were children...and that's a wonderful thing. But when all are the same colour, it will still be worth having a pool of culture that once went to make up where everyone came from.

I'd like the pool where I was born to include far more than football and Eastenders, because I happen to think the pool runs far deeper than that, and is filled with some of the most amazing history, from all walks of life.



With regard to 'The Great White Hope' programme which 'Ruth' recommended earlier on, I couldn't believe what I was hearing, to be honest.

Once again, for me, it was riddled with this peculiarly English 'class' obssession.

In my book ALL our children are suffering at school and not reaching their potential, not just those who are on free school dinners or lower income families. It has *nothing* to do with class. Children who are not loved by their families, no matter what their background, do not do well in life, let alone in school. Children who ARE loved by their families do better....of course they will, because their parents take notice of them and want to help them do well, rather than ignore them totally.

Most of the problems in schools are coming from the schools, not just parents. It's because English kids, in particular, are now the most tested and overworked, stressed out and pressured, in...the...world.
They are judged on their examination passes and nothing else. Schools are only interested in getting the 'pass' rates, rather than helping every child to become a wonderful human being, who judges no-one, who cares for everyone, who still has that natural instinct they were born with to learn and to enjoy learning, because this has been fed and nurtured by teachers who have the child's interests at heart, all the way through their schooldays.

Our current system stinks, in my opinion. It nearly killed my daughter, and it nearly got hold of my son as well. I took both of them out, my daughter not fast enough, and the damage that was done to her self-belief by cruel and thoughtless teachers will remain in her for many years to come, but it gets a little less as the years pass on. She was 15 when she could no longer take it. My son was 7. He had far less damage done to him, and he's had far longer to just 'be himself' to grow and learn in a non-stressful environment, where he learns what he loves to learn, his way, in a way he understands. My daughter's deep love of learning was turned into fear, fear that she was learning 'the wrong way', fear when she failed tests, because she'd been given an absolute horror of them by stressed out teachers who demand, demand, demand, all the time, and then publicly humiliate and belittle the child when the scores are low. It happens over and over and over.

My kids are both on the dyslexic circle, my family (on my side) is, in general. MANY kids are, regardless of background or income of their parents. It is hugely overlooked in schools, and the new way of thinking is that is doesn't even exist anymore. Pah!

You cannot teach a class of 30/40 kids with one teacher. As a mother, I couldn't possibly look after that many kids. Children need adults, many adults to teach them, where the ratio of teacher to child is the right balance, but they *only* need adults who love and respect them, not ones who will belittle them and take great delight in doing that, at times.

Natural teachers never belittle children, they simply love them, nurture them. They are like natural gardeners, who know who to make the seeds grow into beautiful flowers, and who take great pride in helping those flowers come to life.

UNICEF have said that British children are the unhappiest...in the world. That's a terrible, and shocking, thought for us, as a nation. I'd say that English children are even more unhappy than the Scots, Irish and Welsh, because they have been denied their identity and their culture for so long, and we still have the ludicrous SATS tests which do so much damage, so early on, and start the pressure ball rolling from such a young age. Scotland, Ireland and Wales have now chucked them in, because the teachers there have had enough and know the terrible damage that was caused.

The NUT themselves have now recognised, this year, at their conference in Torquay that something terrible is happening to many of our children, stating that many of them had 'mental problems' and were very unhappy. But will they SEE why??????

Last night, I watched a programme on Christmas shows from the 70s onwards...and there it all was..The happiness and fun of Morecambe and Wise, The Two Ronnies, the wonderful Christmas specials that we all used to love so much, Top of the Pops too....and I watched as the programmes became more 'modern'. The interesting part was when they started talking about the soaps...and how they vie with each other for ratings these days, becoming more and more sensational. It started with Eastenders...because the producer of it, way back, decided that he'd introduce darkness into the Christmas show, because he wanted to have a go at 'ruining everyone's Christmas' for them ??????? (Irresponsible b*stard!)....and so the Cult of Misery came into being. And the younger generation started to be raised on murder, infidelity, wife-beating, alcoholism, treachery, depression, unhappiness. You name it, it's in there, and to me at least, the damage that has been wrought on two generations, because of how that programme has been copied by others and that sort of outlook is now so rife on our TVs and in our lives, has been one of the most terrible things to happen in a long time.

So, take on board that schools have a great deal to answer for, politicians too who constantly interfere in Education and who've made it a Corporate Education system, one which fuels the anxiety about examinations. Look at the entire 'industry' which has so cleverly been built around that anxiety, and you start to get a deeper picture of what is happening to our children.

It has nothing to do with 'class', imo,...and everything to do with children not being allowed to be children any longer. Children who feel that life is about exams and little else. Children who are turning off in droves, or judging each other on their exam passes or University degrees, because hey, *everyone* **has** to go to Uni, regardless of whether they may actually want to or not, or have the ability or not...It has everything to do with this insane desire to make all children 'the same', all people 'the same', when each of us is so very different from the other in so many ways, yet alike in others. You cannot make the poet into a mathematician. You cannot turn the scientist into an artist. You cannot make the writer become an engineer.

If you want to find the way to get children to learn, then remove the exams. Let them learn what they love to learn, teach them the basics, yes, of course...but give them a LOVE of reading, of wanting to know. Feed and nurture that natural learning instinct we are nearly all born with, and watch those children grow inside..

"Educating the mind, without educating the heart, is no education at all" - Aristotle.

Many have forgotten that children have hearts. Many are intent upon breaking those hearts. Break a child's heart and you also break a child's mind. You want to know why schools aren't working? Because they do not have love for the inidivual child inside them. Our way of educating is a damaging relic left over from Victorian times, when 'mass' education kicked in. It needs to be changed, drastically, and the way to do that is not stick the poor kids into yet more school, from Breakfast Clubs to Tea Time Clubs and Extra Homework Clubs, it's to ask what kind of society we now have that doesn't even WANT to feed it's children first thing in the morning, because life has become so stressful that many parents haven't got time to feed their kids any longer, or...they don't even want to.

So don't talk to me of class, because class is a label that is stuck on a child's head in this country, and there are those who ensure that never, ever, is that child allowed to remove that label and that they will always be judged by it, first and foremost, being 'a chld from 'a working class background' rather than just a child.

ALL are suffering. There is far more to be being a success than being able to count your GCSEs on two hands. Our kids are spilling out their souls on our city streets, at a younger and younger age, in a way that has *never* happened before. Drunkeness is putting the Ambulance Service in dire straits, as they can no longer cope...

Our children also, can no longer cope...but so many are refusing to see it.


And yes, this is just my opinion. I recognise that others will not be able to understand what I'm saying here, or will disagree with it hugely, but hey, that's what makes us individuals and some of us are still individuals..although that number gets less with each passing year as Orwellian England becomes ever stronger.

Subject: RE: English Culture - What is it?
From: Folkiedave
Date: 24 Dec 08 - 04:14 AM

George Best was part of the England World Cup Squad,

Lizzie it is possible to be interested in football and folk music.

Thus people will tell you that frankly it is impossible for someone who played for Northern Ireland at football to play for England at football too.

Now if you can get a simple, checkable fact like that wrong what dos it say for the rest of your post?

And the younger generation started to be raised on murder, infidelity, wife-beating, alcoholism, treachery, depression, unhappiness. You name it, it's in there, and to me at least, the damage that has been wrought on two generations, because of how that programme has been copied by others and that sort of outlook is now so rife on our TVs and in our lives, has been one of the most terrible things to happen in a long time.

There are two simple answer to the programmes on TV.

The first is to get Sky. Then you could watch football and perhaps have more idea of what you are talking about.

The second is to do without TV.

Subject: RE: English Culture - What is it?
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 24 Dec 08 - 04:24 AM

I'd like the pool where I was born to include far more than football and Eastenders

This from someone whose two chosen "thinking of Eng-er-land" candidates both shagged Peggy Mitchell.

Subject: RE: English Culture - What is it?
From: theleveller
Date: 24 Dec 08 - 04:39 AM

Lizzie, your comments on English schools are not only grossly inaccurate but deeply hurtful and offensive to those teachers and others in the education system and the vast majority of parents who seek to do the very best for children.

The infant and junior school where my two younger kids have been educated is fantastic – my 9-year old not only has a reading age of 12 but is learning to play the cello and absolutely loves school. I have four children and two grandchildren and I have nothing but praise for the state education system in this country – improvements, of course, can always be made and there does appear to be a constant progress towards this.

For the last 15 years, mrsleveller has worked as a peripatetic tutor for the Workers Educational Association, training classroom assistants in some of the most deprived areas in Yorkshire. She does this in local primary schools with the help and support of the staff there and the results are fantastic , with huge benefits to parents, pupils and the schools themselves. The enthusiasm of head teachers and parents is unbounded. Her specialist subject is Special Educational Needs and she is reassured that the stringent measures that are in place in schools ensure that the guidelines for 'total inclusivity' are always adhered to.

Perhaps, before spouting off in an ill-considered and ill-natured tirade, you should actually find out how the education system works outside your tiny circle of experience and the unrecognisable scenario that you have dreamed up in your own mind. Were you to visit a few schools, you would see how, in the vast majority of cases, children are taught with sensitivity to their abilities and needs and, indeed, with love, both of children and of education. Perhaps, instead of spouting off like a deranged banshee on something you know absolutely nothing about, you should take some time to examine how your own attitudes and behaviour towards schools and teachers has had a detrimental effect of your children's education. But, hey, why let the facts get in the way of a good rant?

Subject: RE: English Culture - What is it?
From: GUEST,Joseph P
Date: 24 Dec 08 - 04:47 AM

I dont understand what the failings in our educational system has to do with losing our 'English culture'?

Whilst I agree that the way the education system has gone is not great, I also believe that this affects certain groups in society more than others. Call these the new classes if you want.

And why the obsession with specifically English culture? What about the local culture in your area, that differs from the next town or county? Is this not as important, or more important?

Subject: RE: English Culture - What is it?
From: davyr
Date: 24 Dec 08 - 05:01 AM

I agree with Lizzie's analysis of what is wrong with the UK education system. If I had young kids now (mine are grown up), I would be thinking seriously about contacting Education Otherwise to find out more about home education.

http://www.education-otherwise.org/

Subject: RE: English Culture - What is it?
From: davyr
Date: 24 Dec 08 - 05:13 AM

Having just read Leveller's response (which appeared while I was typing mine), I can only say that this is a common problem with online forums.

People tend to speak as they find from their own experience, as few have the time or inclination to do wide-ranging research into what goes on in the big picture before posting.

My daughter (although not dyslexic) suffered in much the same way as Lizzie's did, and for the same reasons (schools being obsessed with targets and trying to force square pegs into round holes).

I was lucky with my education - I was nagged for being poor at maths and science(being good at English, I apparently should have been good at everything else too), but didn't come under the sort of pressure to achieve that I see now being applied in schools.

Subject: RE: English Culture - What is it?
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 24 Dec 08 - 05:19 AM

It's very easy to get on well at school even when it's not a very good one because a mrsleveller has not, unfortunately, got there. You just do all the work you're supposed to, get the grades and keep a bit ahead. Just like a McJob, really. That way, the education "system" keeps off your back and you can get on with the stuff you want without adults (even if well-meaning) telling you not to.

Pushy parents get in the way. Way back when I was at school, those of us from vaguely dysfunctional backgrounds skipped off from the convent having disposed of our homework in the library and got on with our music and dance, often in the pub. No-one ever (I'm relieved to say) ever mentioned hauling us off to "special units" or into "home education". Has it changed that much?

The very notion that teachers are "natural gardeners" growing "beautiful flowers" is pretentious shite. They have their work cut out simply preserving some semblance of order and dodging the knives. This is only because some parents relinquish their responsibility to instill social behaviour and ought not to have been allowed to reproduce in the first place. Now, there's rather a lot of those about . . . and precious little hope of their children acquiring a concept of indigenous culture.

Subject: RE: English Culture - What is it?
From: theleveller
Date: 24 Dec 08 - 05:27 AM

Davyr, I wonder how long it is since you had first-hand experience of the education system. I have four children, ranging in age from 26 to 9, and 2 grandchildren and have never experienced any problems. In fact, when my eldest daughter (now 24) developed ME whilst preparing for her GCSEs, she was given a huge amount of support and encouragement. The system is constantly improving and, especially in deprived areas and "sink" estates, one of the most important aspects is changing the attitudes of parents to education. If parents have no respect for the system and are not prepared to become involved, for instance as classroom assistants or governors, then how can you expect the children to approach education with the right attitude.

Home education is simply not an option for the vast majority of people and, ion my opinion, is not the way to produce well-rounded and socialised adults.

Subject: RE: English Culture - What is it?
From: davyr
Date: 24 Dec 08 - 05:38 AM

My wife is a recently-retired primary school teacher. Most of the problems seem to be at the secondary level, but are steadily trickling down to the lower age groups too.

As with most "systems", there are obviously wide variations in people's experience from place to place - you obviously have had experience of one of the better examples of practice.

When I worked in Chesterfield in the 90s, home education seemed to be quite a popular choice. The fears about kids not being well-socialised didn't seem to be realised amongst the families I encountered who were taking that option (which, as you say, isn't for everyone).