English Culture - What is it?

Subject: RE: English Culture - What is it?
From: Don Firth
Date: 18 Dec 08 - 07:21 PM

I'm a little confused here. How do you attack a culture?

Don Firth

Subject: RE: English Culture - What is it?
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 18 Dec 08 - 07:28 PM

lox, I can't pm you as you're a guest, but I just wanted to say thank you, for being such a fair poster who sees all sides. Heck, we may disagree about the 'class' thing, but thanks is due on a few other issues.

So, thanks. :0)

Subject: RE: English Culture - What is it?
From: GUEST,lox
Date: 18 Dec 08 - 07:57 PM

Don,

One word.

Penicillin!

Subject: RE: English Culture - What is it?
From: Jack Campin
Date: 18 Dec 08 - 08:47 PM

And for those of us who identify a LOT more with Class War than with Lizzie and her hubby's Daily Mail bollocks: a gathering to celebrate Wobbly songs, in Glasgow, 18/1/2009.

http://www.footstompin.com/public/forum?threadid=375366

I'll be there. I've lost touch with the Class War members in Glasgow and don't know if there are any these days, but if there are, it'll be good to meet up. I was never a member of it, but you've got to hand it to a group prepared to say Britain was a better place for having Norman Tebbit's balls blown off.

Subject: RE: English Culture - What is it?
From: Bert
Date: 19 Dec 08 - 01:14 AM

Gobs, conkers and cheddar cheese.

Subject: RE: English Culture - What is it?
From: GUEST,Mr Oldbugger
Date: 19 Dec 08 - 01:24 AM

"English Culture - What is it?"

Diverse, Dynamic, and Dysfunctional !!!???

that's the 3D's,

or DDD,

if you consider the the vast importance of large bosoms in English culture...

Subject: RE: English Culture - What is it?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 19 Dec 08 - 01:32 AM

Don
"I'm a little confused here. How do you attack a culture?"
As far as folk culture is concerned, you constantly snipe and sneer at it, as the musical establishment does; you pretend it doesn't exist, as adequately demonstrated by the media and the educational establishment, or you claim it requires no standards or criteria (or even definition), as with a large section of the 'folk' (using the term very loosely) establishment.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: English Culture - What is it?
From: Spleen Cringe
Date: 19 Dec 08 - 02:31 AM

Lox: is it ok to say to someone else for whom its something else that they're wrong?

Not entirely sure what you mean. I've just stated an opinion. I think some of the things being said on this thread are wrong, but that's not what or why I posted. But yes, if I think someone's opinions are wrong I reserve the right to politely but firmly disagree with them and tell them why. Surely that's not a problem?

Subject: RE: English Culture - What is it?
From: GUEST,glueman
Date: 19 Dec 08 - 03:42 AM

The issue seems to be that some people want 'folk' to be a dominant tradition, rather than take its place alonside vying and more dynamic cultural forces. As I've been forced to say before, I greatly enjoy folk music and consume it enthusiastically without feeling the need to invest it with importance, or attribute it with characteristics beyond its natural thrall - which is an attractive, beguiling sound.

When people give that sound an unprovable provenances, or rally to it becaue it isn't all the other stuff they hate, everything goes weird.

Subject: RE: English Culture - What is it?
From: theleveller
Date: 19 Dec 08 - 04:05 AM

"This vendetta, a very personal one against me, all that I say, or do, or create, has, in my eyes at least, gone on for way too long."

I couldn't agree more. It was pain on the BBC board and it's a pain here. Disagreement on issues, however vehement, is fine - personal vendettas are a bore.

Subject: RE: English Culture - What is it?
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 19 Dec 08 - 04:09 AM

"And for those of us who identify a LOT more with Class War than with Lizzie and her hubby's Daily Mail bollocks.."

I'm divorced. And I don't read one paper or other, but sometimes, many of them. If you can't be bothered to read what I say, then please don't comment, incorrectly, about me, because if you do, then I presume you do it only to paint me in a bad light.

"I've lost touch with the Class War members in Glasgow and don't know if there are any these days, but if there are, it'll be good to meet up. I was never a member of it, but you've got to hand it to a group prepared to say Britain was a better place for having Norman Tebbit's balls blown off. "


I can assure you The Royal Mail doesn't refuse to deliver post 'just on a whim'. The content has to be **incredibly offensive** for that to happen. Class War were banned for that very reason.

This world has enough hatred in it, but it seems that you wish to add to that hatred, enjoy it, even. Maybe you need to look at what causes you to think like that, then turn it around.

Subject: RE: English Culture - What is it?
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 19 Dec 08 - 04:11 AM

Thank you, leveller.

Subject: RE: English Culture - What is it?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 19 Dec 08 - 04:22 AM

English culture is -

Looking longingly at a past that can never happen again

Accepting new peoples and rolling them into the mix

Complaining about new ideas and traditions while still accepting them

Constantly changing

Multi racial while still distinctly English

Putting up with people in the BNP but never giving in to them

Full of nutters

:D (eG)

Subject: RE: English Culture - What is it?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 19 Dec 08 - 04:28 AM

While there is some rambling here, and while there are some quite balanced and thoughtful posts, there are no posts taking an NF or BNP (or even UKIP) view - but many attacking the idea that England has an indigenous descended culture or ethos, or conflating such a culture or ethos with racism.

That says something, I think.

Subject: RE: English Culture - What is it?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 19 Dec 08 - 04:40 AM

Glueman,
Folk is-or should be a dominant tradition, simply because of what it is - the culture of the 'uncultured'; the artistic expression of a group whose creativity, artistry and history has gone largely unrecognised and unacknowledged.
It is not merely an entertainment (though it is certainly that), but it is the expression of the majority whose history, creativity and experiences are largely unrecorded.
If I wanted to know who won the battle of Trafalgar, who were the officers or which ships took part, I would go to he history books and naval records, On the other hand, if I wanted some idea of how it felt for a farm worker, or miner or weaver to be hoiked off out of his field, mine or mill and stuck behind a cannon below decks expecting to be blown to pieces at any minute, I would have to go to the songs.   
These songs are very much a part of where I come from - may be weird to you, but very important to me, and certainly not available in any of these "more dynamic cultural forces" - whatever they may be!!!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: English Culture - What is it?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 19 Dec 08 - 04:43 AM

Dave,
Sorry - crossed postings
"Looking longingly at a past that can never happen again" - or makilg bloody sure it DOESN'T happen again,
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: English Culture - What is it?
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 19 Dec 08 - 04:46 AM

Leveller, just to refresh your memory: the "vendetta" on the BBC board went on for years, with Lizzie constantly getting into screechy tangles with many, many people. It was certainly going on long before I even joined the board, and Lizzie had already been banned from that board at least once before I ever joined it. It was her constant badgering of the BBC staff that got them to threaten her with legal action.

Whether you want to acknowledge it or not, this thread was started to stir trouble. When someone persistently posts to elicit emotional responses and to wind people up, who is it that's waging the vendetta? I've deliberately ignored several posts over the past few days which have been deliberately placed to bait me (including Lizzie mentioning, yet again, my place of work, which is completely irrelevant in this context, and which I identified some time ago as a particularly nasty type of bullying). But I also feel compelled to point out the numerous posts on this and other threads which correctly identify that Lizzie herself bears the responsibility for her current situation.

Subject: RE: English Culture - What is it?
From: theleveller
Date: 19 Dec 08 - 05:17 AM

Ruth, I was not apportioning blame or taking sides - just echoing the point that personal attacks and vendettas should not form part of debates.

I certainly wasn't of the opinion that the thread was started to cause trouble; I think it's an interesting debate - am I being naive here?

Subject: RE: English Culture - What is it?
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 19 Dec 08 - 05:21 AM

yes, mate - I think you are. MHO, of course.

Subject: RE: English Culture - What is it?
From: The Barden of England
Date: 19 Dec 08 - 05:26 AM

The BNP are such a load of congenital idiots they can't even get the flag right. If it's British it should be the Union Flag and not the English Flag.
The whole lot are complete arseholes and - yes - I want my flag back please, and I want it to be looked on as a proud symbol for ALL who live in England.
John Baden

Subject: RE: English Culture - What is it?
From: The Barden of England
Date: 19 Dec 08 - 05:33 AM

The signature on that last post should read 'John Barden'. I've not changed my name by deed poll :-)

Subject: RE: English Culture - What is it?
From: theleveller
Date: 19 Dec 08 - 07:29 AM

"yes, mate - I think you are. MHO, of course."

Well, it certainly wouldn't be the first time - or the last!

Subject: RE: English Culture - What is it?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 19 Dec 08 - 08:21 AM

Good post at 0440 Mudcat time, Jim.

Subject: RE: English Culture - What is it?
From: GUEST,glueman
Date: 19 Dec 08 - 08:49 AM

It's is one of the necessary myths of the tradition that it is under attack. As others have intimated, there's little evidence unless you equivalence horse-drawn transport as under assault from motor cars, or steam from electrification. I doubt Lumiere's motive in projecting moving pictures was to marginalise live performance any more than Vaudeville sought to institutionalise and codify entertainment practices; they just sorta evolved that way.

Folk is not dynamic in that sense. It chooses an historical framework and seeks to valorise it, or suggest emblematic national status. It can't evolve because it suggests the conditions that gave rise to 'folk' no longer pertain but insists that other cultural processes endanger it's wider dissemination. It seems like cake and eat it to me - stop the world I want to get off. It doesn't stop me liking the noise or admiring the work of those who take their tradition seriously but the attack stuff seems like a wagon circle when there ain't no Indians/Native Americans.

Subject: RE: English Culture - What is it?
From: Jack Campin
Date: 19 Dec 08 - 10:03 AM

Just so people can see the ideas Lizzie was so keen to get suppressed:

Class War statement of principle

Current activity:

London Class War - Burn a Banker!

The Wobbly song event I mentioned:

A celebration in song and narrative of the American Labour movement of the 20th century. Dow's Bar, Dundas Street (at Queen Street station) Glasgow, Sunday 18th January 2009. Starts at 8.00 pm. Admission 7 pounds (5 pounds conc) at the door. Part of the SongWright Glasgow Festival.

Subject: RE: English Culture - What is it?
From: davyr
Date: 19 Dec 08 - 10:33 AM

I see that the "Class War statement of principle" thinks doctors belong to the middle classes and nurses to the working classes.
If whoever is responsible for writing this stuff doesn't realise that nurses have been spending the best part of 20 years establishing themselves as professionals on an equal standing with doctors, it doesn't say much for their grasp on reality.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/education/2008/dec/18/nursing-rae-research

Subject: RE: English Culture - What is it?
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 19 Dec 08 - 10:53 AM

What Class War actually says is that it is capitalism and the state that has split workers into classes of people who hold positions in direct relation to capitalism and the state. Which is undeniably true. As is an observation that doctors are predominantly from middle class origins while a nurse's background is usually working class. It's all sound logic and it's news to me that the Post Office took it upon itself to suppress it.

And even more fascinating to have it revealed that it was the infamous Peter Route, organiser of Sidmouth's Acoustic Café (or whatever it's calling itself these days) who was responsible. I do believe he got fired (from the Post Office, not Sidmouth).

Subject: RE: English Culture - What is it?
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 19 Dec 08 - 10:55 AM

an equal standing with doctors,

Not in terms of pay.

Subject: RE: English Culture - What is it?
From: Jack Campin
Date: 19 Dec 08 - 11:04 AM

Some senior nurses make it to a level of privilege and autonomy comparable to a professional occupation.

For most it's a McJob and they only stick it for a few years. Or else they spend the rest of their lives drifting in and out of it, in between raising kids.

I know nurses in both groups.

Subject: RE: English Culture - What is it?
From: davyr
Date: 19 Dec 08 - 11:19 AM

I work with nurses (and other health professionals) and can't think of any who wouldn't find your suggestion that "For most it's a McJob" deeply offensive.

Subject: RE: English Culture - What is it?
From: GUEST,NHS worker
Date: 19 Dec 08 - 11:42 AM

From personal experience (and talking to many colleagues over the years), I have found that most senior nursing positions mentioned by Jack Campin are held by types of an upper or middle class origin. My husband tells me it's the same in his experience of University teaching; those who make the appointments choose "the right sort of people", and of course "the right sort" always seems to come from the same class as they do. Has there ever been any study or survey, with statistics, of the proportion of public schoolboys and finshing school misses who occupy these positions, compared to the proportion of them in the population as a whole, or the comparably qualified people in the country at least? If the great majority of a country's population was black, but almost all University posts were held by whites, the conclusion would be obvious with regard to "strategies of exclusion". So, is there any survey in England (or Britain) like the one I mention?

Subject: RE: English Culture - What is it?
From: Sleepy Rosie
Date: 19 Dec 08 - 11:52 AM

Wow, Jack Campin, the Nurses of my aquaintance (a variety of friends and family) would find such a statement profoundly offensive. All of whom are very hard working, equally hard playing, 'educated working-class'. And being a bloody outspoken bunch, would have probably flamed your comment to the ground, or more likely punched your lights out (well, the girls anyway!).

Subject: RE: English Culture - What is it?
From: davyr
Date: 19 Dec 08 - 12:02 PM

An editorial in Nursing Times in 2003 (Vol 99 No 24 p13) put its finger on the real issue (which is not one of class):

"Looking after people...is not regarded as having any direct benefit to the economy and is therefore not perceived as a real career".

I am not aware of any survey of the kind mentioned by NHS worker.

Subject: RE: English Culture - What is it?
From: SRD
Date: 19 Dec 08 - 12:13 PM

English culture as opposed to what other culture?
Do you mean something intrinsically English that doesn't occur anywhere else? You won't find anything, neither will you in any other culture.

Subject: RE: English Culture - What is it?
From: GUEST,glueman
Date: 19 Dec 08 - 12:28 PM

Indeed SRD. I'm all for culture but it rarely stops at the designated boundary.

Subject: RE: English Culture - What is it?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 19 Dec 08 - 12:59 PM

Good Heavens!

I agree with the Countess!

Mr Sticky, however, falls into the elementary error of assuming that "folk" is a sound.

Subject: RE: English Culture - What is it?
From: GUEST,glueman
Date: 19 Dec 08 - 01:04 PM

It is Herr Bridge, with a bit of dance and some frocks thrown in. Ask anyone except a folkie.

Subject: RE: English Culture - What is it?
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 19 Dec 08 - 01:53 PM

Mr Sticky, however, falls into the elementary error of assuming that "folk" is a sound.

Now there's a good idea for a thread. Just what the f**k is folk, anyway? Have we had that one yet?

Let's see - if it's not a sound, what else could it be? It is a way of life, perhaps? Is it a crucial aspect of our Good Old English Heritage? Or is it just a piece of bogus hokum to be quibbled over from our various and equally deluded standpoints all of whom claim their way is the right way? But before 1954 ever defined itself, and even 1903 when C# filched the magic Seeds off Mr England and grew himself the magic beanstalk that eventually became The Revival, there was no Folk Music, nor yet the attendant prissiness, purism, pomposity & pedantry that invariably attends it.

A New Year's resolution therefore - I hereby extract the finger from my ear and renounce folk in all its ghastly forms. Instead, I will continue with my love of Traditional Song, Story, Lore, Ballad, Fiddle-Faddle Stuff, Dance, Music, and suchlike Fol-de-Rol. As an born-again non-folkie I will still frequent folk clubs & festivals, and I will be in no way evangelical (unlike when I became a non-smoker) but tacitly pursue my new calling with the calm dignity found only in the truly self-righteous. Of course I could start a new organisation: The English Society for those who Love Traditional Song, Balladry, Custom and Usage but for whom the Concept of Folk Music Sticks in Gullet like a Dogshit* Sandwich - but I don't suppose too many would join.

*White, or otherwise.

IB ;-]

Subject: RE: English Culture - What is it?
From: GUEST,glueman
Date: 19 Dec 08 - 01:57 PM

Count me in IB.

Subject: RE: English Culture - What is it?
From: Spleen Cringe
Date: 19 Dec 08 - 02:17 PM

Where do I join?

Subject: RE: English Culture - What is it?
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 19 Dec 08 - 02:21 PM

I thought I'd founded it long ago but was stuck with a membership of one.

Subject: RE: English Culture - What is it?
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 19 Dec 08 - 03:26 PM

"Leveller, just to refresh your memory: the "vendetta" on the BBC board went on for years, with Lizzie constantly getting into screechy tangles with many, many people. It was certainly going on long before I even joined the board, and Lizzie had already been banned from that board at least once before I ever joined it. It was her constant badgering of the BBC staff that got them to threaten her with legal action."

Can this *please* stop.

Every single time someone is half way supportive of me, or kind to me, you come swooping down to 'put them straight'. ???????

Just to set the record straight, before yet again you 'spin' it out of control, the BBC themselves referred to what was happening to me as a 'witch hunt', I have their email if anyone wants the proof. They too will have a copy of it. Anyone can email them or me, you have my full permission. I HAD to continually email them to ask them to remove your posts, Ralph Jordan's and Diane's ALL of which were deeply personal, vindictive and broke every single BBC House Rule. They had banned me, because I dared to respond to you all, they also banned Diane, at the same time, but left you and Ralph free to do your worst, and you did. Eventually, I told the BBC that if they did not remove these lies and deeply personal insults, then I would cause absolute chaos on their board, because all I was asking was for posts which broke their own rules, and which put my family at risk, to be removed. I had gone down the normal route of complaining to them via the board, but nothing happened, and so I had no option but to email both them and Smooth Ops. You have a problem with that? Then ask Mel, Smooth Ops host, I'm sure you know her. Again, you have my full permission, for I have *nothing* to hide.

Nothing happened, and so, as I'd informed them, I caused chaos on their board one day, which, surprise, surprise, FINALLY resulted in your posts being instantly removed, along with Ralph's, the two of you being put into pre-mod and the BBC putting their own thread on, saying that anyone who from now on even mentioned my name would have their account looked into, and if anyone thought I was on the board, then they should contact the BBC via their complaints button, immediately. That thread is still there, from their 'host' 'Jane'. But heck look at what I had to resort to before they finally did what they should have done in the first instance.

In all this time, by the way, I have never referred to your family, your relationships, nor belittled your intelligence, nor left comments so vitriolic that at times, I've hardly believed what you are willing to put on message boards. I have even put up with you threatening to 'have a drink with my (then) husband' when you saw him at Sidmouth, to 'tell him all about me' (???) You said that on this board. Yes, I have referred to 'your place of work' which means that you are helping with Sidmouth Festival from next year, being it's artistic director, I believe. I refer to it because I live in Sidmouth, and once loved that festival. You have in the past made highly derrogatory comments about a particular band, who bring in more people to folk festivals than many others, headlining at all the major festivals. When you made those comments, you were working for another festival and I reprimanded you on the BBC for what you said, as I felt that working 'in the trade' as it were, festival organisers should be way above making unpleasant remarks about ANY artists, particularly on the major folk boards and the BBC in particular. And especially when those very artists are bringing in thousands of people to their festivals and making them a lot of money. It was, in my view, dishonourable. There has since followed a vendetta of major proportions, from you, Diane and Ralph, although Ralph has now backed right off.

I did NOT start this thread for the reasons you are telling everyone, not at all, but you will not accept that. leveller simply left a kind message which supported me, that was all and yet again, down you swooped, to 'put him right'. Well I'm afraid you got it wrong, very wrong. I started this thread to have an open discussion about what people think English culture actually is, because of the condescending comments Diane comes out with so often, about 'other people's' views of English culture. So, just for once, I wanted to hear what other people views *actually* were. Instead, I got all this. And yet, perhaps if you had just left this thread alone, then no doubt more would have felt able to join in, but you haven't. And so, it's turned into this.


From Diane:

"And even more fascinating to have it revealed that it was the infamous Peter Route, organiser of Sidmouth's Acoustic Café (or whatever it's calling itself these days) who was responsible. I do believe he got fired (from the Post Office, not Sidmouth).

My ex-husband was not fired from The Royal Mail. Sorry to take the sting out of your sting. You'll have to go away and think of something else to try and rile me with. He was also, for one year at least, one of those very people who stepped in to save Sidmouth Folk Week, working alongside many people that you and Joan know. I'd suggest you ask Derek Schofield, Diane, or ask Joan to ask him for you. Peter was one of Sidmouth's directors that year, as well you know. I have nothing to hide, nothing. I will always correct wrongs that are written about me, even if it embarrasses me to do so. I have never walked away from the truth, ever.

I wish you both a Happy Christmas and hope you enjoy Sidmouth next year, but perhaps, sometime over the Christmas period, you should both find some time to dwell on this fact. If it wasn't for people like my ex-husband, who stepped in to help save Sidmouth and who all worked their butts off that year, not knowing what would happen, then Joan would not be the artistic director of a Folk Week that is loved by very many people. Please ensure you take care of it.

And now, back to English culture, or fish and chips, or cream teas...or Maypoles...

Subject: RE: English Culture - What is it?
From: Don Firth
Date: 19 Dec 08 - 04:01 PM

Most excellent idea, Mr. Beard! A small number of individuals (including myself) have organized--or resurrected--something similar to what you propose here in the U. S. and A. It's small, but it appears to be thriving.

Dedicated to traditional song, balladry, et al. What a novel idea!!

Don Firth

Subject: RE: English Culture - What is it?
From: peregrina
Date: 19 Dec 08 - 04:04 PM

In the history of the development of ideas about the right to free speech, using free speech to abuse individuals was considered an abuse from the beginning.

I don't see any reason that posts which abuse individuals should be tolerated here.

Subject: RE: English Culture - What is it?
From: GUEST,lox
Date: 19 Dec 08 - 05:00 PM

"From: Richard Bridge
Date: 19 Dec 08 - 04:28 AM

While there is some rambling here, and while there are some quite balanced and thoughtful posts, there are no posts taking an NF or BNP (or even UKIP) view - but many attacking the idea that England has an indigenous descended culture or ethos, or conflating such a culture or ethos with racism.

That says something, I think."

Richard, I am right with you word for word.

___________________________

I feel it is a matter of denial to (in my view) pretend that class doesn't exist.

I believe in recognizing and celebrating the different cultural values of different classes

I would rather stick red hot needles under my foreskin than have to endure the jingoistic narrow minded boredom of anything to do with "class war".

Subject: RE: English Culture - What is it?
From: Bert
Date: 19 Dec 08 - 05:24 PM

Kippers, bloaters and buckling.
Morpeth Rant, Rakes of Mallow and Cathewsalem.
London Buses, Tower Bridge and The Woolwich Pedestrian Tunnel.
Greensted Church, The Eleanor Crosses and St Peters on the Wall.
The Great Britain, Stephenson's Rocket and The Geordy Lamp.
Sunday Lunch, Pie and a Pint and A Ploughman's Lunch.
Beer you can taste, A Cuppa, and Scrumpy.

Subject: RE: English Culture - What is it?
From: Gervase
Date: 19 Dec 08 - 05:49 PM

At the risk of repeating myself, I'm partial to Ian Dury's take on the subject:
There are jewels in the crown of England's glory (England's glory)
And every jewel shines a thousand ways

Frankie Howerd, Noël Coward and garden gnomes
Frankie Vaughan, Kenneth Horne, Sherlock Holmes
Monty, Biggles and Old King Cole
In the pink or on the dole
Oliver Twist and Long John Silver
Captain Cook and Nelly Dean
Enid Blyton, Gilbert Harding
Malcolm Sargeant, Graham Greene (Graham Greene)

All the jewels in the crown of England's glory (England's glory)
Too numerous to mention, but a few (but a few)
And every one could tell a different story (different story)
And show old England's glory something new

Nice bit of kipper and Jack the Ripper and Upton Park
Gracie, Cilla, Maxie Miller, Petula Clark
Winkles, Woodbines, Walnut Whips
Vera Lynn and Stafford Cripps
Lady Chatterley, Muffin the Mule
Winston Churchill, Robin Hood
Beatrix Potter, Baden-Powell
Beecham's powders, Yorkshire pud (Yorkshire pud)

Billy Bunter, Jane Austen
Ray Ellington, George Formby
Billy Fury, Little Titch
Uncle Mac, Mr. Pastry and all
Uncle Mac, Mr. Pastry and all

All the jewels in the crown of England's glory (England's glory)
Too numerous to mention, but a few (but a few)
And every one could tell a different story (different story)
And show old England's glory something new

Somerset Maugham, top of the form and the Boys' Brigade (England's glory)
Mortimer Wheeler, Christine Keeler and the Board of Trade (England's glory)
Henry Cooper, Mighty Strangler, England's labour (England's glory)
Standard Vanguard, spotted dick, England's workers (England's glory)
It is rather dated now, but so am I...

Subject: RE: English Culture - What is it?
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 19 Dec 08 - 08:04 PM

It'll do for me, Gervase.

Subject: RE: English Culture - What is it?
From: Jack Campin
Date: 19 Dec 08 - 08:31 PM

Lox, if you make the effort to read some of Class War's stuff you'll find that, agree with it or not, it is anything but boring.

They came out of the punk movement (which was one of England's major contributions to world culture in recent decades) and preserved its core values better than most.

Subject: RE: English Culture - What is it?
From: GUEST,lox
Date: 19 Dec 08 - 08:53 PM

"They came out of the punk movement (which was one of England's major contributions to world culture in recent decades) and preserved its core values better than most."

Looks like you'd better get a load of jeffrey lewis
defining the moment that "stupid on purpose" became the new "smart"