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BS: Yuletide - the Solstice
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Subject: BS: Yuletide - the Solstice From: Bryn Pugh Date: 17 Dec 08 - 11:53 AM To all our friends on the 'Cat : May the re-birth of the Invicible Sun bring you and those you love, all Joy, Health, Peace and Love in the time to come. So mote it be. Erica and Bryn |
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Subject: RE: BS: Yuletide - the Solstice From: John J Date: 17 Dec 08 - 12:24 PM Thank-you, that's lovely. JJ |
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Subject: RE: BS: Yuletide - the Solstice From: Jack Blandiver Date: 17 Dec 08 - 01:13 PM Winter Solstice Point 2008 - 21 December, 12.04 GMT. Splendor Solis! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Yuletide - the Solstice From: Stringsinger Date: 17 Dec 08 - 02:27 PM Originally, as I understand it, they burnt the yule log in memory of the time that shamans in earlier cultures set trees on fire to appease the gods so that daylight would return. They picked the Solstice to do this. Eventually, the sun did come back so more trees were set on fire. This is why we have Xmas Tree lights. Christmas is undoubtably a pagan holiday. It was appropriated by Christians to make up a birth of Christ which was assuredly impossible to be on Dec. 25 if he existed at all. The Egyptian God, Mithras claims the 25 of December as a birthdate. They clocked Jesus as being sometime in June. They researched the intersection of the planets in a row making the proverbial biblical star of Bethlehem. I think it was Jupiter and another planet which escapes me now. In June. I like the Pagan Christmas because it makes more sense than does the Christian one. Frank |
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Subject: RE: BS: Yuletide - the Solstice From: Sleepy Rosie Date: 17 Dec 08 - 02:53 PM And to you and yours likewise Bryn! A plug for a seasonally enchanting book that I'm currently reading, by a couple of my favourite authors: http://www.amazon.com/Pagan-Christmas-Spirits-Rituals-Yuletide/dp/1594770921/ref=cm_cr_pr_pb_t Though personally I'll be glad to get this "bluddy 'orriblist year" outa the way... Roll on Imbolc! Rosie :-) |
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Subject: RE: BS: Yuletide - the Solstice From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity Date: 17 Dec 08 - 02:55 PM May the snow bring you whiteness......jeez! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Yuletide - the Solstice From: Sleepy Rosie Date: 17 Dec 08 - 02:56 PM Oops, that's: Pagan Christmas |
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Subject: RE: BS: Yuletide - the Solstice From: gnu Date: 17 Dec 08 - 03:00 PM Well, the bright star is now in the western sky. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Yuletide - the Solstice From: Sleepy Rosie Date: 17 Dec 08 - 03:03 PM Awww, so thoughtful! And may abundant rabbit droppings bring your snowmen speckly brownish stainings Mr. Sanity! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Yuletide - the Solstice From: katlaughing Date: 17 Dec 08 - 03:35 PM Bryn & Erica, thank you and may your wishes for all of us return to you tenfold. IB, that is a beautiful image. I was watching Burt Wolf's travel show on PBS the other day. He was doing a ride up the Danube and claimed that Christmas trees came about when Protestant churches decided they were okay, i.e. not too Papist/garish as a representation of the Christ child and the Light. That was a new theory to me! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Yuletide - the Solstice From: PoppaGator Date: 17 Dec 08 - 04:22 PM "...Christmas trees came about when Protestant churches decided they were okay, i.e. not too Papist/garish ... Doesn't make sense! Christmas trees could not have first "come about" in such a context. The statement implies that Christmas trees had been known under "Papist" juristiction, before the Reformation. The Protestant reformers in that neck of the woods apparently rejected the Christmas tree for a period of time, and then had to reconsider and relent. I suppose the "pagan" impulse to celebrate the Winter Solstice by bringing evergreen foliage into our houses is just too strong to be denied! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Yuletide - the Solstice From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity Date: 17 Dec 08 - 05:35 PM From: Sleepy Rosie Date: 17 Dec 08 - 03:03 PM Awww, so thoughtful! And may abundant rabbit droppings bring your snowmen speckly brownish stainings Mr. Sanity! Ahhh, the yuletide spirit! Merry Christmas, anyway. Happy New Year, as well.. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Yuletide - the Solstice From: Mrrzy Date: 18 Dec 08 - 08:37 AM Ancient humans came from darkness and they spread across the planet They saw the sky above them, and they learned to find their way Out of ignorance and shadow to the hope of human kindness They were strengthened by the knowledge that they gathered every day And all wise folk speak of peace on earth, of harmony and struggle Yet another cycle's gone, and a new one will begin On this darkest day of winter, we recall that the Spring will come again On the darkest day of winter, we cherish light with green and kith and kin... Well now, each of us must travel, yes we all must make our journey It seems that time is telling us to use all we can know To help lift up the fallen we must sow the seeds of goodness The torch has passed among us now to light the way to go For our hearts are as a chalice, and our dreams are of the sunlight They burn away the darkness as we kiss 'neath mistletoe Unlike eagles flying higher, unlike rivers down a canyon, When diamond stars shine down on us, we know whereof they glow... And the wise still speak of peace on earth, of harmony and struggle Yet another cycle's gone, and a new one will begin On the darkest day of winter, we remember that the Spring will come again On the darkest day of winter, we cherish light with green and kith and kin... I cherish all of you. Love, peace and harmony in all of its manifestations, musical and otherwise, to you, in the coming year and future. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Yuletide - the Solstice From: Liz the Squeak Date: 18 Dec 08 - 11:40 AM It was Martin Luther (November 10, 1483 – February 18, 1546) who is credited with first decorating a tree at Christmas. The story goes that he was walking through the woods one Christmas Eve and saw a fir tree with the stars shining through it. He was so moved by its beauty that he uprooted one and brought it home, fixing candles to the branches to signify the stars as heaven brought down to earth. In the UK, the first Christmas tree is credited to a German Princes Lieven, who had one put up in 1892, a good 10 years before Prince Albert. He and Victoria made them popular, but previously they had been almost exclusively a German tradition. Others credit St Boniface of Crediton who, in his attempt to convert Germany to Christianity in the 8th Century, cut down a sacred Oak tree. A fir tree miraculously sprang up in its place and Boniface adopted this as the symbol for the new faith. Combine this with the German tradition of putting a fruit tree branch indoors in water to force it into flowering during the season, and the legend told by a 10th Century geographer that on Christmas Eve at midnight, all the trees in the forest bear flowers and fruit, and you've got yourself a brilliant excuse for dressing a tree with flowers, fruit and lights. Princess Lieven's tree was decorated with paper roses, apples, gold foil and sweets. We've gone over to electric lights these days because our homes, being warmer and less plant friendly, dry the trees out so much that real candles become a fire hazard. Whether it's a pagan tree worship, a Saturnalian tribute or a Christian holy day, have a blessed Solstice... and although I bat for the other team, I'll be lighting a few candles, just in case! LTS |
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Subject: RE: BS: Yuletide - the Solstice From: GUEST,solstice boy Date: 18 Dec 08 - 11:50 AM I was born about 7.00am, Sunday 21 Dec, 49 years and 3/4 months ago.. does that mean I might have any special supernatural powers I'm not currently aware of..? Also, need I hide in the attic this Sunday for fear any barmy old hippies might want to sacrifice me..??? [yeah, I'm sure I probably ask this question on every mudcat winter solstice thread..] whatever, I'm taking a celebratory bottle of fine old malt up the attic with me , just in case.. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Yuletide - the Solstice From: Sleepy Rosie Date: 18 Dec 08 - 12:02 PM Knocking on the door of 50 'solstice boy'? You'll be lucky to get a look in with the barmy old hippies. Get in line! Don't you realise that there are lots of gorgeous Wicca babes out there now, merrily 'sacrificing' themselves to the bearded ones? And not just on feast days either... |
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Subject: RE: BS: Yuletide - the Solstice From: Sleepy Rosie Date: 18 Dec 08 - 12:06 PM PS if you're genuinely interested I can knock up an astrological chart for a small fee. Along with the usual black cockeral and stuff. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Yuletide - the Solstice From: Ebbie Date: 18 Dec 08 - 12:14 PM The Amish, traditionally, do not put up a Christmas tree but I don't know that it is a hard and fast rule. I was 9 years old when my sixteen year old sister brought in our first tree. It was a table top model and we made and colored bands of paper that we strung on the tree, as well as tinting popcorn and threading strings of it 'round and 'round the tree. I don't remember that there was anything else on the tree but it was a momentous occasion. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Yuletide - the Solstice From: Catherine Jayne Date: 18 Dec 08 - 04:55 PM Yuletide Blessings to you Bryn and your family. Blessed Be Khatt and Paul |
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Subject: RE: BS: Yuletide - the Solstice From: lady penelope Date: 18 Dec 08 - 04:57 PM I dunno, wiccans are weird..... But that's organised religion for you... *G* Solstice boy, yes you do have special powers, you can spotaneously combust at the drop of a sickle.... LOL! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Yuletide - the Solstice From: Liz the Squeak Date: 18 Dec 08 - 07:32 PM Sorry, that 1892 should of course be 1829... d'oh! LTS |
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Subject: RE: BS: Yuletide - the Solstice From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity Date: 18 Dec 08 - 07:35 PM From: Sleepy Rosie Date: 18 Dec 08 - 12:06 PM PS if you're genuinely interested I can knock up an astrological chart for a small fee. Along with the usual black cockeral and stuff. You can WHAT????!!!!????!! Now that must be an AMAZING WOMAN!! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Yuletide - the Solstice From: GUEST,LTS pretending to work Date: 19 Dec 08 - 10:08 AM And do you by any chance have a sideline interest in a Fried Chicken shop? Well it's sinful to waste all those black cocks on one thing... LTS |
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Subject: RE: BS: Yuletide - the Solstice From: Nigel Parsons Date: 19 Dec 08 - 10:22 AM Well it's sinful to waste all those black cocks on one thing... Liz, Behave yourself! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Yuletide - the Solstice From: Sleepy Rosie Date: 19 Dec 08 - 10:53 AM Erks! I'm scared of engaging in any more worthless banter here in BS unless that Scorcha lady comes back and flames me again for cluttering up the place. But as you've asked so nicely LTS, FYI I don't actually have any spare black cocks for you to munch on, but apparently I do have (quote) "arseholes, everywhere" (certainly more than are required for my personal needs) that could be nicely BBQ'd instead... Any good to you? Sorry, sorry Bryn, I promise to stop Off-Topicing your genuinely charming Solstice Greetings thread now and return to shameful lurking... :-) |
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Subject: RE: BS: Yuletide - the Solstice From: goatfell Date: 19 Dec 08 - 10:55 AM I'm totally aganist Politcal Correctness, it's not a happy holiday it's the season of Chirstmas but people ten to forget that. here is a poem that someone sent me and I agree with it. *Twas the month before Christmas* *When all through our land,* *Not a Christian was praying* *Nor taking a stand.* *See the PC Police had taken away,* *The reason for Christmas - no one could say.* *The children were told by their schools not to sing,* *About Shepherds and Wise Men and Angels and things.* *It might hurt people's feelings, the teachers would say* * December 25th is just a ' Holiday '.* *Yet the shoppers were ready with cash, checks and credit* *Pushing folks down to the floor just to get it!* *CDs from Madonna, an X BOX, an I-pod* *Something was changing, something quite odd! * *Retailers promoted Ramadan and Kwanzaa* *In hopes to sell books by Franken & Fonda.* *As Targets were hanging their trees upside down* * At Lowe's the word Christmas - was no where to be found.* *At K-Mart and Staples and Penny's and Sears* *You won't hear the word Christmas; it won't touch your ears.* *Inclusive, sensitive, Di-ver-si-ty* *Are words that were used to intimidate me.* *Now Daschle, Now Darden, Now Sharpton, Wolf Blitzen* *On Boxer, on Rather, on Kerry, on Clinton !* *At the top of the Senate, there arose such a clatter* *To eliminate Jesus, in all public matter.* *And we spoke not a word, as they took away our faith* * Forbidden to speak of salvation and grace* *The true Gift of Christmas was exchanged and discarded* *The reason for the season, stopped before it started.* *So as you celebrate 'Winter Break' under your 'Dream Tree'* *Sipping your Starbucks, listen to me.* *Choose your words carefully, choose what you say* *Shout MERRY CHRISTMAS , not Happy Holiday !* Please, all Christians join together and wish everyone you meet during the holidays a MERRY CHRISTMAS Christ is ¡The Reason¢ for the Christ-mas Season! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Yuletide - the Solstice From: goatfell Date: 19 Dec 08 - 11:09 AM how true Remember that Christmas is all about Jesus, but if you don't like this then why celebrate it in the first place, you should all become Jehovah witness or Mormans or some other faith that doesn't celebrate Christmas ans then you won't be classed as a hypocrite. I celebrate Christmas because I'm a Chirstian, and it is a Christian holiday. So have your pagan Christmases or whatever but don't sing Christian songs and don't give/take Christmas gifts because that smacks of being a hypocrite |
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Subject: RE: BS: Yuletide - the Solstice From: Sleepy Rosie Date: 19 Dec 08 - 11:43 AM This thread was about Yuletide or Winter Solstice. And it was warmly intended and charmingly worded by the OP. Though of course like many threads it has inspired interesting tangiental discussions. Please try not to mistake a friendly gesture as an attack. And if you dislike the thoughts a thread such as this generates, perhaps it is better to refrain from reading it and indeed posting? Happy Solstice, and may some en-Lightening sparks fall your way. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Yuletide - the Solstice From: Liz the Squeak Date: 19 Dec 08 - 12:11 PM Sleepy Rosie - when I'm pretending to work, I'm doing it for Her Majesty's Revenue and Customs... I'm SURROUNDED |
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Subject: RE: BS: Yuletide - the Solstice From: PoppaGator Date: 19 Dec 08 - 02:41 PM It might make sense to ask those who aren't Christian believers to refrain from singing carols whose lyrics explicitly concern the birth of the Christ Child... ...but it makes no sense at all to preclude such persons from gift-giving, enjoyment of food and drink, placement of trees indoors, singing fa-la-la-la-la, promotion of human fellowship and peace on earth, and other such time-honored Yuletide/Soltice traditions. These midwinter holidays are the birthright of all of us, of any religion or none at all. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Yuletide - the Solstice From: Liz the Squeak Date: 19 Dec 08 - 03:12 PM Dunno what happened there... there was an erudite piece on the Solstice and the fact that I'm surrounded by assholes because of my workplace, but it vanished! LTS |
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Subject: RE: BS: Yuletide - the Solstice From: GUEST,lox Date: 19 Dec 08 - 07:13 PM Man - you know - since modern pagan revivalists started redefining the christmas holiday for me, my life has been revolutionised ... ... at least for as long as it took me to chew my last mouthful of turkey ... And of course my 4 year old daughter really gives a s*** too. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Yuletide - the Solstice From: katlaughing Date: 19 Dec 08 - 07:59 PM goatfell, one thread of that copy and paste is enough, imo. You posted it in the Christmas thread, then verbatim in here. Leave off. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Yuletide - the Solstice From: jimmyt Date: 19 Dec 08 - 11:00 PM Happy whatever! jimmyt |
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Subject: RE: BS: Yuletide - the Solstice From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity Date: 19 Dec 08 - 11:13 PM From: Goatfell Date: 19 Dec 08 - 10:55 AM I'm totally against Political Correctness, it's not a happy holiday it's the season of Christmas but people ten to forget that. here is a poem that someone sent me and I agree with it. *Twas the month before Christmas*........................... Not only do I applaud you,.....you get a standing ovation!!!!!!!!!!!! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Yuletide - the Solstice From: CapriUni Date: 20 Dec 08 - 02:00 AM I was raised, culturally, Christain (Quaker), but, in practical terms, my upbringing was secular. I was taught, by my parents, the story of Jesus' birth, and that the star on top of the tree represented the Star of Bethleham.* But mother also told me, from the time I was seven or so, that Jesus was not really born in December. She said, even back then, that we celebrate Christmas when we do because of the ancient pagans who celebrated the winter solstice, that they would light candles and fires to entice the sun to come back, and bring greenery into the house to encourage life to keep going. And she said that the main reasons why we give gifts to each other, and have feasts and sing songs because we've got a long, cold winter ahead of us, and things would get very depressing, otherwise. In my teens, she started a brief tradition of holding a Winter Solstice potluck party at our house, inviting all the neighbors over. When the sun set, she would try to encourage people to join in a collective cheer, to say good bye to the old sun, and get ready for the new one to come... mostly, people just looked at her like she was weird. But she cheered enthusiastically, anyway. We always bought a live ball-and-burlap tree; we took off the decorations and moved it to the basement on Twelfth Night (I was also told it was bad luck to keep it up any longer), where it could stay cool-yet-protected until the ground thawed in the spring. Then it would get planted somewhere on the property. She also told me that it was good luck to have a bird ornament somewhere on the tree, because it represented the continuation of life in the coming new year -- I really do not know which culture she got that from. Our ornaments were always eclectic and folk-arty /homemade -- none of this Martha-Stewart style "Theme" stuff. But nearly every year, we'd buy one new bird ornament to hang in the tree (And it was considered especially auspicious if we found a real bird's nest somewhere in the branches of our tree. I remember that happening a couple of times). Anyway, that's what I remember. So it's hard for me to really get my head around the apparent conflict some see between celebrating Christmas and celebrating the winter solstice, because I've known all my life that the two are linked, and that both halves are important to people, though each half is more or less important to different people, and that's okay. For the record, I never really talked to my mother about how she was raised, religiously. I think they went to an Episcipalian church in New York City when they were kids, though I think she and her siblings spent more time running around the church towers, getting into mischief, than actually listening to any of the sermons. She once told me, near the end of her life, that she considered Mathematics to be her religion, and that the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost were useful metaphors for the Past, Present and Future, respectively-- and that when we die, she thought it could be that we're reincarnated into the daisies that we push up, and that our souls, if souls we have, just become part of the pattern of energy in the universe as a whole. So I guess most "normal" people would call her an atheist. But she was a very spiritual, maybe-believing-in-magic-along-with-science, atheist. She specifically asked to be cremated, and for her ashes to be periodically spread on our compost heap. *It was thin wood, a geometric design, and painted barn-red. My mother bought it at a Danish design store, iirc, for my parents' first Christmas as a married couple. I think we used it every year, at least, until Mom died. Glad Yule! Io, Saturnalia, Merry Christmas! Happy Hannukka! Happy New Year! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Yuletide - the Solstice From: VirginiaTam Date: 20 Dec 08 - 03:52 AM what it says |
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Subject: RE: BS: Yuletide - the Solstice From: Dave the Gnome Date: 20 Dec 08 - 04:38 AM So have your pagan Christmases or whatever but don't sing Christian songs and don't give/take Christmas gifts because that smacks of being a hypocrite Hey, I'll celebrate Christmas, Saturnalia, the Solstice, Divali, Hannukah, Eid and whatever festivals I fancy, mate! There are loads of religions and they all say they are right so who am I to disagree. If they want me to celebrate - I wll. Don't need to be asked twice. Just don't ask me to do any of that weird stuff... :D (eG) |
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Subject: RE: BS: Yuletide - the Solstice From: Liz the Squeak Date: 20 Dec 08 - 04:58 AM El Gnomo - you mean weird like drinking eggnog? What the hell is that stuff anyway? No sane person would drink it any other time of the year, so why now? LTS |
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Subject: RE: BS: Yuletide - the Solstice From: Michael Date: 20 Dec 08 - 07:32 AM Whether or not you have any Christian beliefs, we(both UK & US and many other parts of the world) have a holiday including 25th December.The holiday exists because of the Christian festival of Christmas, not for any other reason, so let's call it that. It's a bit like saying "I don't believe in Woden, so I'll just call the day between Tuesday and Thursday 'day'" If you see what I mean. Mike |
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Subject: RE: BS: Yuletide - the Solstice From: Sleepy Rosie Date: 20 Dec 08 - 08:22 AM And the "Winter Solstice", is an *astronomical event* which occurs somewhere between the 20th and 23rd December. Nothing wrong with calling that what it is either. And I seem to remember reading somewhere, that at least a couple of those astronomical events like the Winter Solstice, were officially established at least >poster counts on her fingers< eleventytwelve or so years before Jesus or Woden or anyone else was born ;-) Anyone know the approximate time for the Sunrise (UK) on the 22nd? If it's clear I might go out and catch it. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Yuletide - the Solstice From: goatfell Date: 20 Dec 08 - 09:25 AM but what has that got to do with Christmas eh! If you don't believe in Christ then don't celebrate Christmas,I have no problem with that but BRITIAN IS A CHRISTIAN COUNTRY or it used to be. If you want to have that sort of 'faith' then go ahead but remember what Christmas is all about that's all, and who it is all about as well. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Yuletide - the Solstice From: goatfell Date: 20 Dec 08 - 09:39 AM If I was a muslim or a jew or any other memeber of faith I would be going off my head at this Happy Holidays and not a word would be siad about me, but as a Christian, I've just to sit back and allow people to critasize me, and just take it lying down, I mean would would be saying these things about a muslim or a jew or anyone else for that matter no but because I'm a Chirstian reminding people wht CHRISTmas is all about I have been told to shut up, aye tell that to a muslim to shut about their faith and see where you end up, I don't mind people the way the celebrate CHRISTmas, but don't tell me what I can and can not do. GOD BLESS YOU ALL |
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Subject: RE: BS: Yuletide - the Solstice From: GUEST,Mr Oldbugger Date: 20 Dec 08 - 09:57 AM Goatfell, if it makes you feel any better this Xmas.. I'm an agnostic and couldn't give a monkeys for anybody's religion.. ..and if it wasn't for the mrs being so girly about all this seasonal good cheer bollox I'd be just as happy to treat it all as just any other miserable bloody day... happy @#*?in' christmas !!! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Yuletide - the Solstice From: Sleepy Rosie Date: 20 Dec 08 - 10:00 AM No-one here is telling anyone else what they *should or should not be doing*, except YOU Goatfell: "Do this, don't do that. Bla bla bla!" Yes there is only one TRUE CHRISTMAS, it's a holiday the Church established on the 25th December and it involves lots of pressies and plastic baubles and pudding (I know 'cos I've seen this Sacred Mystery in action myself) This thread is for people interested in Winter Solstice on the 21st. So please stop bossing everyone else about, and stop telling other people who you don't know from Adam what *they* can and can't do, and go and TROLL your own thread. Ta.. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Yuletide - the Solstice From: GUEST,Mr Oldbugger Date: 20 Dec 08 - 10:16 AM oh no Goatfell.. and now you've just reminded me.. if it aint bad enough I've got keep the telly turned down low and all the lights off in case of carol singers... theres also bound to be the annual plague of local godbotherers banging on the front door early in the mornings when i'm trying to settle down for a quiet relaxing shit.. xmas is worse than %*@#in' halloween.. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Yuletide - the Solstice From: goatfell Date: 20 Dec 08 - 10:20 AM I give up, I now know what this thread is all about, and I'm sorry for being an Idiot and bumhole. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Yuletide - the Solstice From: skarpi Date: 20 Dec 08 - 10:22 AM The winter solstice " vetrar sól stöður " is tomorrow . HAve a great holydays all . kv Skarpi |
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Subject: RE: BS: Yuletide - the Solstice From: Sleepy Rosie Date: 20 Dec 08 - 10:27 AM "I'm sorry for being an Idiot and bumhole." Lol! Well seeing as you made me laugh out loud by saying "bumhole", everythings good again... ;-D |
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Subject: RE: BS: Yuletide - the Solstice From: goatfell Date: 20 Dec 08 - 10:32 AM thank you |
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Subject: RE: BS: Yuletide - the Solstice From: Jack Blandiver Date: 21 Dec 08 - 08:24 AM We passed Solstice point today at 12.04 GMT. Now we sufferers of SAD may at least start looking forward again; the solar year is renewed. All that remains is to get through Xmas & New Year. As I said elsewhere, it's always good to have something to look forward to: Happiness in the New Solar Year! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Yuletide - the Solstice From: CapriUni Date: 21 Dec 08 - 02:03 PM Thank you, Troll. (And those in the Southern Hemisphere can look forward to the promise of summer harvests; for Pagans there, it's now Litha) You know, I've always liked the constellation known to most of us as "Orion," in large part because it always seems to be visible in the sky no matter how much light pollution there is (I'm now living in the suburbs, having grown up in the woods, and the Orion constellation is just about the only one I can still fully see, at night). But I've always been bothered by the Greek mythic explanation: That Orion was a mortal hunter who wanted to show he was better than the gods by hunting down and killing every wild animal on earth. So I love the constellation, but hate the "hero" it represents. Well, I recently learned that the three stars of his "Belt" was known to the Norse people (whose holiday Yule was, long ago) as "Frigg's [or Freya's] Distaff." Frigg and Freya were two heaven goddesses, who were believed to spin and weave sunlight, and Frigg was believed to have a jeweled spinning wheel (The circle of stars that is visible around the row of three, perhaps?). I also learned that if you use the three stars as a pointer to guide you to the Star called Sirius (the brightest star in the sky, near the horizon in the east, you'll see where the sun will rise, the morning after the Winter Solstice. I like this much better than the "Orion" story. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Yuletide - the Solstice From: Jack Blandiver Date: 21 Dec 08 - 02:25 PM There's a theory that the distinctively wonky alignment of Orion's Belt inspired both the placement of the Giza pyramids in Egypt and the Thornborough Henges in Yorkshire. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Yuletide - the Solstice From: CapriUni Date: 21 Dec 08 - 04:25 PM Yes. Liz the Squeak mentioned about the alignment of the pyramids in another thread, the other day. It makes sense, when you think about: It's a constellation of the brightest stars in the sky, right next to the river of stars we call the "Milky Way," and, as it's over the celestial equator, it's a constellation that is visible from both the northern and southern hemispheres. So, naturally, people all over the world have looked up at that cluster of stars and said: "ooooh! That's Important!" |
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Subject: RE: BS: Yuletide - the Solstice From: VirginiaTam Date: 21 Dec 08 - 04:30 PM Not as important as the chocolate yule log cake I am having right now... Ymmmmmmm |
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Subject: RE: BS: Yuletide - the Solstice From: Jack Blandiver Date: 21 Dec 08 - 04:35 PM Thornborough Henges & Alignments |
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Subject: RE: BS: Yuletide - the Solstice From: Alice Date: 21 Dec 08 - 04:39 PM Here comes the sun. Yippeee!!! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Yuletide - the Solstice From: number 6 Date: 21 Dec 08 - 04:45 PM Happy Yule biLL |
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Subject: RE: BS: Yuletide - the Solstice From: skarpi Date: 22 Dec 08 - 02:55 PM well all , yesterday was the shortest day of the yar , only three hours here in Iceland . it will be 7 seconds longer today .>) Merry Christmas all Skarpi |
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Subject: RE: BS: Yuletide - the Solstice From: CapriUni Date: 22 Dec 08 - 03:00 PM Thank you, Skarpi! And every new second of new light is a welcome thing. May your basking in it be a joyful thing. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Yuletide - the Solstice From: skarpi Date: 22 Dec 08 - 05:37 PM thank you capri uni .>) skarpi |
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Subject: RE: BS: Yuletide - the Solstice From: Bill D Date: 22 Dec 08 - 05:53 PM The solstice at Newgrange..in Ireland Spectacular enough to make me WANT to believe in something. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Yuletide - the Solstice From: katlaughing Date: 22 Dec 08 - 07:16 PM If you believe...they will come, BillD!**bg** bILL- kewl yule snap!! Skarpi...those seven seconds will sure add, won't they? Here comes the sun, indeed. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Yuletide - the Solstice From: bobad Date: 22 Dec 08 - 09:13 PM "Spectacular enough to make me WANT to believe in something." It speaks to me of the powers of observation, calculation and interpretation. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Yuletide - the Solstice From: CapriUni Date: 22 Dec 08 - 09:32 PM Religiously, I'm agnostic. Most days, these days, I'm tipping toward the atheist side of that spectrum. But, in any case, I don't have to believe in a deity to believe in "Something." I believe in something very powerful, with every breath I take in and let out: |
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Subject: RE: BS: Yuletide - the Solstice From: katlaughing Date: 22 Dec 08 - 10:20 PM Beautiful, CU! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Yuletide - the Solstice From: Bryn Pugh Date: 23 Dec 08 - 04:54 AM Thank you, CU - Joy, Health, Peace and Love, indeed. At slight risk of thread drift, when in Salem, Mass., last year I saw a 'car sticker' (in a shop window), which set me thinking and chinking : No war was ever fought in the name of Wicca. Wise and Blessed Be, All. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Yuletide - the Solstice From: Sleepy Rosie Date: 23 Dec 08 - 05:03 AM Lovely drop of Beatles Katlaughing... Sun King |
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Subject: RE: BS: Yuletide - the Solstice From: theleveller Date: 23 Dec 08 - 06:06 AM "So have your pagan Christmases or whatever but don't sing Christian songs and don't give/take Christmas gifts because that smacks of being a hypocrite " There it goes again - bloody Christians hijacking our traditional celebrations. Was Jesus really born on 25th December? I doubt it. The hypocrisy, I think, is on your part, Goatfell - go and start your own thread, this is nothing to do with you. As always, your religion is bringing rancour, division and bitterness into a time of peace and goodwill. To Erica and Bryn - thank you for you greetings, they are much appreciated and, in the lengthening days ahead, may you enjoy peace prosperity and plenty. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Yuletide - the Solstice From: Sleepy Rosie Date: 23 Dec 08 - 06:28 AM Might be an idea to ressurect the old Wicker Man Christmas bonfire celebrations? Spit roast puritan anyone? Or was that sposed to be the Spring Rites... Bahhh a month here or there, who's counting? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Yuletide - the Solstice From: goatfell Date: 23 Dec 08 - 06:35 AM if I was a muslim or a Jew or any other person of faith, and I stood up for my rights and my views, I mean I have nothing agaist the Solstice, or the people that celebrate it, but how does that MAKE ME A HYPOCRITE |
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Subject: RE: BS: Yuletide - the Solstice From: theleveller Date: 23 Dec 08 - 06:52 AM It's simple, really Goatfell. Only the christian religion has usurped the traditional celebration of Yule, as this demonstrates: "The Pagan celebration of Winter Solstice (also known as Yule) is one of the oldest winter celebrations in the world. Ancient people were hunters and spent most of their time outdoors. The seasons and weather played a very important part in their lives. Because of this many ancient people had a great reverence for, and even worshipped the sun. The Norsemen of Northern Europe saw the sun as a wheel that changed the seasons. It was from the word for this wheel, houl, that the word yule is thought to have come. At mid-winter the Norsemen lit bonfires, told stories and drank sweet ale. The ancient Romans also held a festival to celebrate the rebirth of the year. Saturnalia ran for seven days from the 17th of December. It was a time when the ordinary rules were turned upside down. Men dressed as women and masters dressed as servants. The festival also involved decorating houses with greenery, lighting candles, holding processions and giving presents. The Winter Solstice falls on the shortest day of the year (21st December) and was celebrated in Britain long before the arrival of Christianity. The Druids (Celtic priests) would cut the mistletoe that grew on the oak tree and give it as a blessing. Oaks were seen as sacred and the winter fruit of the mistletoe was a symbol of life in the dark winter months. It was also the Druids who began the tradition of the yule log. The Celts thought that the sun stood still for twelve days in the middle of winter and during this time a log was lit to conquer the darkness, banish evil spirits and bring luck for the coming year. Many of these customs are still followed today. They have been incorporated into the Christian and secular celebrations of Christmas." Now, as I said before....go and start your own thread, this is nothing to do with you. As always, your religion is bringing rancour, division and bitterness into a time of peace and goodwill. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Yuletide - the Solstice From: goatfell Date: 23 Dec 08 - 06:53 AM At lest I can admit that I'm a hypocrite, it's these people that can't that have the problem, as they say the truth hurts doesn't it. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Yuletide - the Solstice From: Bryn Pugh Date: 23 Dec 08 - 07:38 AM Goatfell - speak for yourself. You, of all people, to criticise those you think, or you feel, to be acting hypocritically. By what authority or right do you do so ? And do not dare, here, to quote words of your prophet. This is the first time I have knowingly "flamed" on the 'Cat, and if that means that this thread is closed, so be it. Go and observe the tenets and rituals of your faith, and leave those of us who have chosen to turn our backs on christianity, for what we feel to be a better faith, to do the same. When a pagan prevents you from observing the tenets and rituals of your faith, then you can bitch. Until then, kindly clear off this thread and stick to your true christmas one. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Yuletide - the Solstice From: open mike Date: 23 Dec 08 - 12:01 PM as for the three stars--those in orion's belt (or freda or freya spinning wheel) there are other celestial brights these days.. they are planets...venus, mercury and mars, and jupiter by the way, Orion's belt reaches meridian on dec. 24 venus, jupiter and the moon were forming a bright triangle around the first part of dec. saturn has been near the moon on the 18 and 19 dec. clear skies mean cold weather |
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Subject: RE: BS: Yuletide - the Solstice From: GUEST,Arran Date: 23 Dec 08 - 12:56 PM Well I think that Goatfell has the right to be heard as everyone else, and has the right to put his points of views across, and if you wanted this to be a thread for pagans only then you should of said |
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Subject: RE: BS: Yuletide - the Solstice From: katlaughing Date: 23 Dec 08 - 01:09 PM He doesn't need to knock on every door, Arran. He started his own thread about Christmas and has stated the same things in both threads. Repetition will get him nowhere in this case. THIS thread was obviously started for people who celebrate Solstice. It is naive, incorrect, and/or obtuse, recalcitrant even, to believe/say it is a place for such negative spewing as he has done. Would you like to see a greeting card you'd sent to someone all marked up by someone who didn't celebrate the same holiday as the card you sent out did? There's something called Common Courtesy which he could have observed. There are threads for debates, but this was not intended to be one of them, as I am sure he doesn't want his Christmas thread to be. Sleepy Rosie, that'll get yer blood warmed up! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Yuletide - the Solstice From: GUEST,trainboy Date: 23 Dec 08 - 01:18 PM What happened to free speech, here's a guy using that right of free speech and yet you 'peace loving' pagans turn really nasty towards him, so much for showing love to towards your fellow human being, all because he believes in free speech. I think that you 'peace loving' pagans should look at your 'faith' and because I don't think that this guy has a problem, he just putting his true feelings across. I don't care if your pagan faith or whatever you want to call it is right no one can say what is the correct faith, but at lest he said he was sorry. and yet some of you don't the heart to accept it and then just get on with your lives.
Guests may post IF they use a consistent name. Pick one: Arran or trainboy, and keep it consistent or your posts may be deleted. - joe clone - |
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Subject: RE: BS: Yuletide - the Solstice From: CapriUni Date: 23 Dec 08 - 01:57 PM Trainboy -- I, personally, feel great joy when a Christain tells me about his love of Jesus, or a Jew tells me of his love for YHWH, or a Muslim tells me of his love for Allah, because then they are including in their circle of love. It's just that when people tell me to sit down and shut up when I speak of my own love for the Earth, because somehow, my feelings and experiences don't count, and they've decided that they have sole claim to a particular date on the calender, that I get a just a teensy bit annoyed. (Besides, this thread is clearly titled for the celebration of Yule and the Solstice, which are Pagan and/or atheist observations [the solstice just happens, whether or not you believe in any supernatural entity]). |
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Subject: RE: BS: Yuletide - the Solstice From: Sleepy Rosie Date: 23 Dec 08 - 03:51 PM Goatfell/Arran/Trainboy - You apologised. That's really great. Good work. Time to leave this thread alone now. Katlaughing - I know, I got me blud a bit hotted up today. It does do me hed in when other folk want to tell others how to live their own lives... I mean it really does! Time for some mulled wine and other snuggly things in my own home. Just so long as the fundies don't start banging on me bluddy door... ;-) Jeez I wish some fracking Pagans would start proselytising, at least then I could have a proper party!! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Yuletide - the Solstice From: katlaughing Date: 23 Dec 08 - 07:37 PM I should have clarified, SR, I mean the great drumming for which you provided a link would get yer blood going! Good stuff! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Yuletide - the Solstice From: Sleepy Rosie Date: 24 Dec 08 - 03:54 AM Sorry K! Yes, the Drum n Bass outfit SOM. I like them. Tangentially it's of interest to me how we've misplaced the primal sacrality in such immediate things as rythm and dance - which arguably fit hand in glove with a genuinely pagan reniassance. It's one of my beliefs that such movements as Rave Culture are the instinctive secular manifestations of an impulse to communual ecstatic ceremonial experience. Not exactly a groundbreaking theory of course, lots has been written on 'shamanic trance' and drumming and dance. For me personally (and no disrespect to Wiccans), from my own brief foray into 'Pagan songs', this is where neo-Pagan religions don't really seem to grab me strongly enough. Take that 'State of Mind' track which I posted, "Sunking". IMO, that bit of completely secular D'n'B, is what I'd like to be dancing to come the Rebirth of the Sun. Preferably at Newgrange ;-) Where according to some bit of research on experiments with vibration there, which I saw on a doco, is more or less apparently a great big sound chamber - sound familiar? Carols from Kings anyone? Some really lovely photy's there Bill D by the way. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Yuletide - the Solstice From: Jack Blandiver Date: 24 Dec 08 - 05:37 AM Spit roast puritan anyone? Sorry, Sleepy - I can't let this comment pass without a fnaar fnaar... Having celebrated the solstice, and sang of wrens and such like blood sacrifice, I'll be off to Midnight Mass tonight to complete the round of observances which, like the solstice, just happen. Faith (Christian, Pagan or Otherwise) is too prescriptive for a brain such as mine that thrills to a multiplicity of excitements depending on the occasion, or the season. I believe the term is pluralism, and it's not something I appear to have much of a choice about either. Remember, we can't all be right but we can all be wrong. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Yuletide - the Solstice From: theleveller Date: 24 Dec 08 - 06:05 AM Troll, that rather smacks of hedging your bets with the almighty :0 |
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Subject: RE: BS: Yuletide - the Solstice From: goatfell Date: 24 Dec 08 - 07:24 AM OK I will leave, but if you want to close this thread ask Joe offer to do so, don't blame me, I didn't start this thread, all I was doing was putting across my views and I might not have to same cleveriness as you lot or the same diplomatic way of saying/doing things and I have said that I'm sorry about the way I behave, but I don't think that I got angry at all and if I did then I'm sorry. So Goodbye but remember I'll always be there behind you lot and I will put my views across wither you like or not. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Yuletide - the Solstice From: Sleepy Rosie Date: 24 Dec 08 - 05:07 PM "Spit roast puritan anyone? Sorry, Sleepy - I can't let this comment pass without a fnaar fnaar..." A tippet - when spit roasting dried-out little puritans, it's worth basting them with plenty of goose-grease first. I'm told they squeal something awful too. So a seasonal satsuma (a la Michael Hutchence) stuffed in the gullet should help... |
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Subject: RE: BS: Yuletide - the Solstice From: Bryn Pugh Date: 30 Dec 08 - 05:31 AM SR - aye, or in some other convenient orifice . . . Roll on Imbolc, when I shall (if I'm let) give some folk the further opportunity to be rude, to call themselves names, to require the thread to be closed, and then to be all apologetic . . . My youngest grandson behaves like this, as does my great-granddaughter. Wise and Blessed Be, all Friends on the 'Cat - you know who you are. E & B |
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Subject: RE: BS: Yuletide - the Solstice From: Sleepy Rosie Date: 30 Dec 08 - 08:20 AM "Roll on Imbolc" Aye, to that. Race you for the first Snowdrop..! In fact if you do open a thread near to the time, hopefully I'll have figured out how to get photy's postable, and I'll be able to post piccy's of Imbolc snowdrops. This may sound a strange question, but as a long term Wiccan Bryn, in your opinion does Wicca have any 'Prophets' as such? How much of the founding materials of Wicca were possibly forged from personal divine revelation? There are certain echoes that I see in the tripartite nature of the Wiccan Goddess and some similar expressions of the Gnostic Sophia for eg. Of course there's been a whole lot of relatively recent debunking of the early 'cloathing' of Wicca as The Old Religion. But I think most Wiccans are fine with all that stuff now. So what I'm really interested in, is to what extent, Gardener et al, were arguably 'prophets' and cloathing their direct and genuine personal gnosis in 'ye olde' packaging? (Implicit in my question is of course the acceptance of the premise that there is indeed such a thing as personal gnosis, or revelation.) This probably isn't the place for such a question... And it's no doubt a quite impossible one to answer! But the thought struck me when you posted a message further down the thread. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Yuletide - the Solstice From: maeve Date: 30 Dec 08 - 08:40 AM May the returning Light greet each of us; restoring hope and helping us to extend the hand of friendship. maeve |
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Subject: RE: BS: Yuletide - the Solstice From: Mr Red Date: 30 Dec 08 - 12:18 PM have we past the latest sunrise yet? I don't think so. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Yuletide - the Solstice From: PoppaGator Date: 30 Dec 08 - 12:59 PM I would have thought that celebration of the solstice would be something everyone could agree upon. Shame on anyone who tries to twist this discussion into something divisive! Whether one believes in God or not, or isn't sure, or adheres to one brand of orthodoxy or another, or none at all, we certainly all inhabit a complex world where very much is uncertain, but where one of the few certainties is that the days get shorter and shorter as every year comes to an end, and then they finally begin to lengthen again as the cycle of life is reborn once again. The fact that various religions have found ways to incorporate this ancient observance, each into its own calendar and in support of its own credo, only emphasizes the universal truth behind the celebration. So lighten up, y'all! Literally!!! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Yuletide - the Solstice From: PoppaGator Date: 30 Dec 08 - 02:19 PM I just noticed an "above-the-line" thread on "Folklore: Celebrating the Solstice." I found it interesting that there was a much less contentious tone in that discussion up there, in contrast to the some of the "anti-pagan" rhetoric down here in BS-land. That other discussion does include a serious bit of disagreement about the "Celtic-ness" of early Britain, but the argument is exceedingly polite an basically academic, with no one taking offense at anything. I am entirely in favor of Chrsitanity, but I am also absolutely comfortable with the notion that early Church authorities "appropriated" existing worshipful customs and adapted them to the new religion. I do NOT see celebration of Christmas and of Yuletide/Solstice as an "either/or" choice: both refer to the coming of light into the world, and I would hepe we can all agree that this is good, and that we can all share in each other's best wishes! |
