BS: Election in Iran

Subject: RE: BS: Election in Iran
From: bobad
Date: 24 Jun 09 - 11:33 AM

Just heard of (supposedly)confirmed reports that the militia in Iran are hacking protesters up with axes.

Subject: RE: BS: Election in Iran
From: DougR
Date: 24 Jun 09 - 01:32 AM

Thank you, LH, I'm not in the mood for a lecture anyway. Otherwise, how are you?

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: Election in Iran
From: heric
Date: 24 Jun 09 - 12:45 AM

Speak truth to power. Speak truth to small powers. There's nothing wrong with speaking the truth. Evasion is weakness.

Subject: RE: BS: Election in Iran
From: Ron Davies
Date: 23 Jun 09 - 11:57 PM

From the poster's own words:   "20 June 2009 12:15 PM:   "Israel was talking about the desirability of the destruction of Iran before the Iranians started their nuclear program".

Not just rivalry between the two nations but "destruction".   That is the assignment--and it's the assignment she set out for herself.   Nobody put those words in her mouth.

Subject: RE: BS: Election in Iran
From: Ron Davies
Date: 23 Jun 09 - 11:50 PM

Perhaps she thinks the Yinon plan meets her assignment. Nowhere does it advocate the destruction of Iran. Nice try.

If she thinks it does, the exact quote please.

I wonder if this was a favorite tactic of hers--alleging that the answer was buried somewhere in a pile of verbiage-- in flim-flamming teachers.   And how successful she was in this maneuver.

Subject: RE: BS: Election in Iran
From: Ron Davies
Date: 23 Jun 09 - 11:42 PM

The poster alleges she did provide evidence that Israel pushed for the destruction of Iran even before Iran's recent push for nuclear power.

Sorry, that's total drivel.   She tried to bury the topic in extraneous postings--one of her favorite tactics, rather than admit she was completely off base.

And of course the reason she did not provide such evidence is fairly straightforward--since it does not exist, except in her wonderfully fertile imagination.

If this is not so, let's have the direct quote:   exactly who in Israel said what, when?   Without copious cut and paste, which only serve to muddy the water--much as she delights in such a waste of bandwidth.   And of course bearing in mind that the person must represent Israel.   Somewhat more than, for instance, David Duke represents the US.

And she need not bother to refer us to some amorphous, endless, and close to meaningless posting she made earlier. Let's try the "Dragnet" school--just the facts, ma'am.

One direct quote will be sufficient.   Good luck.

Subject: RE: BS: Election in Iran
From: bobad
Date: 23 Jun 09 - 07:48 PM

I asked about the meaning and was told "we are going to have a beautiful Spring" - lovely song.

Subject: RE: BS: Election in Iran
From: DannyC
Date: 23 Jun 09 - 07:46 PM

Sorry, my comments are incorrect... it had been added last week.

Subject: RE: BS: Election in Iran
From: DannyC
Date: 23 Jun 09 - 07:45 PM

This musical video was posted a few minutes ago on a young Iranian's site. I wonder if it names the names of this past week. If I get a translation I will post it.

Folk Song

Subject: RE: BS: Election in Iran
From: CarolC
Date: 23 Jun 09 - 10:24 AM

I most certainly have responded to the charge that there are no parallels to the European enlightenment in the Islamic enlightenment. If someone can't be bothered to read my posts, that's their problem, not mine.

Subject: RE: BS: Election in Iran
From: CarolC
Date: 23 Jun 09 - 10:22 AM

That article from the supremacist hate site, Palestine Facts dot org, about Arabs attacking Israel after it declared itself a state is a huge libelous pack of lies. Almost none of the fighting occurred on land that was designated for the Jewish state in the partition plan. Almost all of it occurred on land that was designated for the Palestinians in the partition plan. The reason the Arabs needed to fight in those areas was because the Jews were in the process of trying to take all of the land designated for the Palestinians, and had already taken quite a lot of it in the several months prior to Israel declaring itself a state. It's also a lie that the Palestinians fled as a side effect of Arab attacks on the state of Israel. Several hundred thousand Palestinians had already been expelled from their homes and villages, and forced to flee for their lives (and many had already been massacred) in the several months before Israel declared itself a state, and before Arab armies responded by trying to defend the rest of the land that was given to the Palestinians in the partition plan. This is historical fact, and there is more than ample proof of it.

And if anyone has a problem with Haj Amin al Husseini having been in a position of power in Palestine during the mandate period, they can thank the Zionist, Herbert Samuel, for that. I guess that would make Mr. Samuel a Nazi collaborator.

Subject: RE: BS: Election in Iran
From: CarolC
Date: 23 Jun 09 - 09:58 AM

Except that I did. Someone must have missed it.

Subject: RE: BS: Election in Iran
From: Ron Davies
Date: 22 Jun 09 - 11:31 PM

So the poster who was, with her usual flair for the histrionic, waxing eloquent about Israel's intention to destroy Iran--before Iran's current push for nuclear power--has not come up with any evidence to support her imaginative theory. I can't tell you what a shock it is that she has nothing to back up her hot air.

Another idol shattered--we had relied so heavily on her to provide objective, fact-based reporting on controversial topics, rather than the blatantly partisan postings of other commentators. Ah, well.

Of course, if in the future she wants to avoid eating quite so many words, she could always try actually thinking before hitting "send".   Now there's a concept.

Subject: RE: BS: Election in Iran
From: Bobert
Date: 22 Jun 09 - 07:52 PM

I agree, McG.... Time to move along... The minorities in Iran can best be served if we can get some things sorted out with the Iranian governemnt... Supporting folks to get their asses blown up ain't really all the great an idea... Take what we can get...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Election in Iran
From: Bobert
Date: 22 Jun 09 - 07:49 PM

Oh, I just remembered those MK-84's that were US built and sold to Saudi Arabia and then the Dod leaned on the Saudis to "share" them with the Iraqis... remember them, pdq... Or do you remember that we had Dod folks in Iraq providing intellegence and actually directing the Iraqi Air Force's daily bombing of Iranian targets???

I mean, lets get real here... The US didn't want Iran to win... They perhaps were willing to accept a draw but they weren't gonna let Iran win that war...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Election in Iran
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 22 Jun 09 - 07:49 PM

That seems likely enough - and I see that it's in line with official statements saying that there were "irregularities" but that they wouldn't have changed the result.

The face-saving way out for everyone would be the suggestion I made - in the light of such admitted irregularities, and to calm things down, have a second round run-off between the "winner" and the "runner-up". Which would quite likely in fact be won by Ahmedinajad, even with a fair vote.

Subject: RE: BS: Election in Iran
From: Bobert
Date: 22 Jun 09 - 07:26 PM

You missed a few days of school, pdq... The Americans gave Iraq all that stuff that 20 some years later Bush thought they still had... Like lots of chemicals... Where did Saddam get the gas that he used on the Kurds??? From the Iragi/Iran War, that's where... If you recall the Iraqis weren't doing well in that war until the US chipped in weapons and intellegence... To deny that is to deny history... That is the way it went down... I can't believe that anyone would argue differently... Way too much stuff out there to deny the US's role... Way too much!!!

Yo, bb...

I finally got around to me "hard copy" of the Post and reread E.J."s column and I think he hit it on the head... Yeah, there was a time when progressives were the ones who wanted to go off and support every insurgent movement... We older progressives have seen what that has brought US... 56,000 of our brothers and sisters dead in Vietnam... 5,000 in Iraq... Yeah, Obama is trying very hard to change the way we deal with conflict abroad and whereas the ol' progressive in me supports the moderates in Iran, I'm not up for yet another new and shiney war... The shine wears off 'um way to quick and they are real hard to end... So, yeah, patience and handshakes and all that stuff is more apt to help the Iranian insurgents than saber rattling, bluss and blunder... And perhaps yet another war, or act of war (bombing)...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Election in Iran
From: Amos
Date: 22 Jun 09 - 07:17 PM

Stratfor offers an intelligent analysis and concludes that while there was fraud, Ahmedinajad would have carried the day without, and explains carefully why.


A

Subject: RE: BS: Election in Iran
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 22 Jun 09 - 06:24 PM

It's as well to remember that it wasn't just a matter of providing help to Saddam in his war against Iran. In July 1988 the USS Vincennes shot down a civilian airbus, Iran Air Flight 655 which was making a scheduled journey, and killed everyone on board, 290 passengers, 66 of them children.

And there wasn't even a gesture of apology such as flying a flag at half-mast the next day, which was 4th July.

Subject: RE: BS: Election in Iran
From: pdq
Date: 22 Jun 09 - 06:18 PM

"The US backed Iraq and provided them weapons and intellegence during that war... Right???"

Essentially, wrong.

The weapons Saddam Hussein used against Iran in the 1980s came primarily from the USSR and some from France, China and Germany. Remember, Iraq broke-off all diplomatic relations with the US after we were seen as preventing the destruction of Israel in the 1967 Arab-Israeli War.

US-made weapons were less than 2% of the total and most were sold to Iraq against US policy (see illegal weapons dealers).

The US was neutral but gave Iraq arial photographs of Iranian excursions into Iraqi terrirtory late in the war. Crossing into Iraqi made Iran the aggressor at that point. We did not really help, just allerted them to the problem.

As far as chemical and biological weapons go, we give them to no country. We gave one or two briefcases with samples so that Iraqi scientists could tell which agents the Iranians were using on the Iraqi troops. What we gave them could not be used to start production of any of the agents.

Subject: RE: BS: Election in Iran
From: Bobert
Date: 22 Jun 09 - 05:12 PM

Hey, ya'll... Let's keep Iran's interest in developing a nuclear weapon in some perspective...

Iran was invaded by it's neighbor... Iraq, right???

The US backed Iraq and provided them weapons and intellegence during that war... Right???

The US later lumped Iran into the "Axis of Evil"... Right???

Now lets just boil this down to human nature... If you provide weapons to folks who have killed my people and now you are say I am this evil entity and I know that you have one shit load of nasty weapons then guess what??? Well, I'll tell you what... It would be irresponsible on Iran's leader's parts if they weren't trying to develope a nuclean weapon... Like yesterday!!!

I think the US should just give them a couple and all this crap would cease tomorrow...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Election in Iran
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 22 Jun 09 - 04:49 PM

I noticed where that document heric linked us to said "After all, it is hard to wipe a country off the map without destroying its population as well." A comment which doesn't really inspire much confidence, in the light of all the countries which have vanished from the map in the past half century or so...

Subject: RE: BS: Election in Iran
From: plnelson
Date: 22 Jun 09 - 09:18 AM

Someone said that democracy is an alien concept in the Islamic parts of the world, and they tried to use the commonly repeated (racist) canard that Islam has never experienced an enlightenment as the reason democracy is not compatible with Islam

I gave you specific details about the European Enlightenment for which there are no parallels in the "Islamic Enlightenment". (Primacy of reason over religion, autonomy of the individual) These were radical ideas at the time, and in many parts of the world, including most of the Islamic world, they are still radical. I asked you a specific question ("Who would you regard the David Hume of Islam to be?")

You've offered no response to any of this!

And on that theme- who was the Islamic John Stuart Mill? What is the Islamic Enlightenment's equivalent to Locke's Social Contract theory? Who provides the Islamic Enlightenment's contributions to epistemology, a la Kant?

The whole concept of "consent of the governed" (which democracy is based on) depends on a well-developed philosophy of reason and the idea that reason trumps mere belief a la religion.   This is an idea that western philosophers managed to wrap their heads around centuries ago, and Islam is yet to accept.    If you think this is racist, please provide your facts.

Subject: RE: BS: Election in Iran
From: beardedbruce
Date: 22 Jun 09 - 05:12 AM

"I am inclined to view this particular source as a propaganda source. "



I have to remember this...

If it presents a view not supported by someone, it is propaganda and can be ignored.

If it presents the view supported, it is assumed to be official policy.


Got it now.



"But on May 15, 1948 with the termination of the Mandate, the declaration of the State of Israel, and the British departure, the states of the Arab League (armies from Jordan, Syria, Lebanon, Iraq, Egypt, and a token force from Saudi Arabia) invaded the new country with the declared intent of destroying it.

The invasion was hardly surprising. Mufti el-Husseini, one of the worst Nazi collaborators, called for Jihad against Jews in a 1943 broadcast from Radio Berlin during the height of the Holocaust:

Kill the Jews wherever you find them, this is pleasing to Allah.

Prior to the 1948 war against Israel, the Iraqi Prime Minister said all the Arabs would need would be "a few brooms" to drive the Jews into the sea. All they were waiting for was the British and said, "once we get the green light from the British we can easily throw out the Jews." [Quote from Sir Geoffrey Furlonge, "Palestine Is My Country: The Story of Musa Alami (Praeger Press, 1969)]

On the day that Israel declared its independence (May 15, 1948), Azzam Pasha, Secretary General of the Arab League, at Cairo press conference, (reported in the New York Times, May 16, 1948) declared "jihad", a holy war. He said that the Arab states rejected partition and intended to set up a "United State of Palestine." He then stated:

This will be a war of extermination and a momentous massacre which will be spoken of like the Mongolian massacres and the Crusades".
In a letter to the United Nations, the Transjordanian Prime Minister was quoted:

Our position is clear, and has been proclaimed on every occasion. It is never to allow the creation of a Jewish State in Palestine and to exclude partition. And our object is to cooperate with the other Arab States in her deliverance. Once this aim is attained, the determination of her future status is the right and concern of her own people. Theirs alone is the last word. We have no other object or aim in view.

The Muslim view is that Israel is a Naqbah (catastrophe), an affront to their religious faith. As such, Israel must be resisted by all available means and eradicated as soon as possible. This view is the basis for not only the events of 1947-1948, but continues to drive Middle East events to this day.

One result of the Arab attacks on the State of Israel and its Jewish population was the flight of Arabs from their homes in Israel. Even though they were encouraged to stay by the new Israeli government, and those who did remain became citizens, many fled at the urging of their Arab leaders who expected a quick victory over the Jews. "

Subject: RE: BS: Election in Iran
From: CarolC
Date: 22 Jun 09 - 12:39 AM

I should have said in Persian rather than in Iranian. Oops.

Subject: RE: BS: Election in Iran
From: CarolC
Date: 22 Jun 09 - 12:38 AM

I was able to read it using a special Firefox extention that does magic things to non-live links.

That article is being very dishonest. For one thing, they even admit that Ahmadinejad said, "this Jerusalem occupying regime", but they decide that Jerusalem occupying regime means the state of Israel itself and all of its people rather than its actual meaning, which is the regime in Israel (the government). They also allude to the existence of missiles with the saying wipe Israel off the map, but they offer no evidence of it nor the actual words in Iranian pre-translation (assuming such things exist, which we so far have no evidence of). I am inclined to view this particular source as a propaganda source.

Subject: RE: BS: Election in Iran
From: CarolC
Date: 22 Jun 09 - 12:24 AM

The link doesn't work.

-----------link fixed. Mudelf-----------

Subject: RE: BS: Election in Iran
From: heric
Date: 22 Jun 09 - 12:22 AM

Hate to get involved in this, but this page sets out an apparently good list of reasons to believe that Mr. A and his superiors have expressed a desire for violence against the people of Israel, and to erase Israel under any government:

Click here

What the bluster ultimately means is uncertain, but it's there.

-----------link fixed. Mudelf-----------------

Subject: RE: BS: Election in Iran
From: CarolC
Date: 21 Jun 09 - 11:55 PM

I posted the wrong link for the piece by Oded Yinon. This one's better...

http://www.geocities.com/alabasters_archive/zionist_plan.html#top

Subject: RE: BS: Election in Iran
From: CarolC
Date: 21 Jun 09 - 11:53 PM

It's not a problem for me, because I am not so impatient that I can't contain myself.


This is a report written by Oded Yinon. Oded Yinon served as an official in the Israeli foreign ministry. I've seen some people argue that his plan is not the Israeli government's plan, but much of this plan has been implemented. People can feel free to ignore the commentary that accompanies the actual plan. The important part is the plan that was written by Yinon...

http://www.geocities.com/alabasters_archive/zionist_plan.html#contents


This report from Yinon shows that Israel will not tolerate any powerful countries in the Middle East that are not client states.


Tzipi Livni and former Mossad chief Ephraim Halevy have said that any nuclear ambitions Iran has do not pose an existential threat to Israel.

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/916758.html

They're right. Iran does not pose an existential threat to Israel, with our without nukes. But it does pose an obvious obstacle to Israeli hegemony both with and without nukes. The only way to remove Iran as an obstacle to Israeli regional hegemony is to turn into a client state of the US and Israel, or to break it up as it has been trying to do to other countries in the region, and in keeping with the agenda as outlined in Yinon's plan. We know that Israel has been applying many of the same methods in Iran as is has applied in the other countries it has weakened and destabilized or turned into client states, like funding and supporting terrorists.

Subject: RE: BS: Election in Iran
From: Ron Davies
Date: 21 Jun 09 - 11:13 PM

That Depends.    How do you know so much about them?   You must have had a lot of experience; in fact it must be somewhat of an obsession with you.   It doesn't really seem to have much to do with the election in Iran--except possibly in your charming imagination.

Subject: RE: BS: Election in Iran
From: CarolC
Date: 21 Jun 09 - 10:39 PM

Hour and a half now. That's enough for me. Someone else seems to need to grow up a little, if that person can't wait that long before sniping and badgering. Or maybe get some depends so they don't wet themself.

Subject: RE: BS: Election in Iran
From: Ron Davies
Date: 21 Jun 09 - 10:00 PM

"dark motives"   "bringing to light truths...".....we don't want to admit.

OK, fine.   Your purple prose is quite impressive--and very entertaining.   Perhaps there's a future for you in Harlequin or another publisher of that sort.

However, according to your own statement you now have about 2 hours to come up with the evidence that Israel wanted to destroy Iran before Iran started its nuclear program.

You can consider we're just eager to hear this news--which in fact you may be able to sell to the National Enquirer. It's quite an honor that Mudcatters would be the first to hear it before the rest of the world.

Subject: RE: BS: Election in Iran
From: CarolC
Date: 21 Jun 09 - 09:56 PM

Israel has not already attacked Iran because the US government has told them in no uncertain terms that they must not attack Iran. This is the only reason they have not done so, as of yet.

Subject: RE: BS: Election in Iran
From: CarolC
Date: 21 Jun 09 - 09:54 PM

Once again, Ahmadinejad has not ever threatened to wipe Israel off the map. He has never said he even wants Israel wiped off the map. This has not ever, ever happened. It is not just a myth, it is a BIG LIE. It never happened.

Ahmadinejad said that one day the ZIONIST REGIME IN ISRAEL would be wiped from the pages of time, like the Soviet regime and the South African regime under apartheid. This is NOT in any way a threat of harm to Israel on the part of Iran, and it is impossible to make what was said mean that it is a threat of harm or a statement of an intention to harm Israel in any way.

Anyone who chooses to believe the commonly repeated lie about Ahmadinejad threatening to wipe Israel off the map is someone who wants to attack Iran for reasons of their own that have absolutely nothing whatever to do with Israel's security.

Subject: RE: BS: Election in Iran
From: CarolC
Date: 21 Jun 09 - 09:43 PM

Someone said that democracy is an alien concept in the Islamic parts of the world, and they tried to use the commonly repeated (racist) canard that Islam has never experienced an enlightenment as the reason democracy is not compatible with Islam, and not something that Iran could have established on their own. I pointed out the falsity of that suggestion. This was a perfectly reasonable thing to do in the context of the discussion. Again, someone with rather dark motives of their own has gotten into the habit of following me around trying to project motives onto me that are not mine, specifically for the purpose of trying to silence me (because they don't like people bringing to light truths that they would rather remain hidden). This hasbara tactic will not work. It's a waste of time.

Subject: RE: BS: Election in Iran
From: CarolC
Date: 21 Jun 09 - 09:36 PM

Someone in the thread said that Israel wasn't concerned with attacking Iran until it started working on its nuclear program. That is factually incorrect. It's not an attempt to vilify anyone to say so if it's true. However, making the accusation that I attempt to vilify at every opportunity is an attempt to vilify, and the person who said it never passes up an opportunity to do that to me, explicitly for the purpose of silencing people who bring to light truths that person would prefer to keep secret.

Subject: RE: BS: Election in Iran
From: Little Hawk
Date: 21 Jun 09 - 08:03 PM

DougR - "If Israel wanted to destroy Iran, it could have done so quite easily already."

Yes. By launching a couple of hundred Israeli nukes at Iran...and then dealing with the rest of the world's reaction to the greatest mass murder in history.

It's not so easy as you think, Doug! There are consequences. Do I have to explain to you why they have not done it, even though they would clearly very much like to?

A child could understand why they have not done it. No, I'm not going to bother explaining it to you, Doug...

Subject: RE: BS: Election in Iran
From: Azizi
Date: 21 Jun 09 - 08:01 PM

This poem recently written by an Iranian was posted in the comment section of
http://narcosphere.narconews.com/thefield/regrouping-against-repression-iran#comments Regrouping Against Repression in Iran; Posted by Al Giordano - June 21, 2009

Khosrow Golshiri: What will you do with the roots?
Submitted June 21, 2009 - 1:59 pm by Iraj Omidvar

Let's say you think I have been felled!

And my young branches are hacked with your axes!

What will you do with the roots?

Let's say you sit on the walls of this garden in hunt of birds!

You have planted no-fly signs!

What will you do with the chicks in the nests?

Let's say you kill!

Let's say you cut!

Let's say you beat!

What will you do with the unavoidable shoots?

Posted on Jebhe Melli Iran-US (Jebhe.org)


-snip-

It seems to me that it has the seeds (pardon the pun) of a great song.

Subject: RE: BS: Election in Iran
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 21 Jun 09 - 07:28 PM

The videos coming out of there are ghastly.

Subject: RE: BS: Election in Iran
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 21 Jun 09 - 07:21 PM

The USSR has been wiped from the face of the map, but the people are still there. The same is true for Czechoslovakia and many other countries. There's a very real likelihood that the same will happen sooner or later to the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland.

Subject: RE: BS: Election in Iran
From: DougR
Date: 21 Jun 09 - 07:06 PM

Carol C: If Israel wanted to destroy Iran, it could have done so quite easily already.

Your statement that Iran has not threatened to destroy Israel is laughable. Iran's president has so stated that Israel should be wiped from the face of the map many times.

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: Election in Iran
From: robomatic
Date: 21 Jun 09 - 04:30 PM

interesting piece. Reminds me of my literary college classes where some of the kids could go on at length on social realism in the works of Charles Dickens as a precursor to Marxism and even the professor couldn't tell the sh*t from the shinola. In this case Crooke has it all so well defined but is it a case of his deep background or is he simply painting targets around random arrows in the wall?

Subject: RE: BS: Election in Iran
From: Peter T.
Date: 21 Jun 09 - 04:16 PM

not sure what would constitute evidence of Israeli intentions, but here is an interesting piece on the history of Israel vis-a-vis Iran. Earliest citation of strategic interest in Iran becoming enemy no. 1: 1993.

http://mondediplo.com/2009/02/05iran


Peter T.

Subject: RE: BS: Election in Iran
From: Peter T.
Date: 21 Jun 09 - 04:01 PM

Also worth adding that in the Iran-Iraq War (which everyone has forgotten about except Iran and Iraq) the Americans (blessed Ronald Reagan, he who is in Heaven at the right hand of God the Father Almighty) supported the Iraqis.

Peter T.

Subject: RE: BS: Election in Iran
From: robomatic
Date: 21 Jun 09 - 03:53 PM

I sit corrected, of course Iran is in the Middle East, but it's not at the center.

Subject: RE: BS: Election in Iran
From: Little Hawk
Date: 21 Jun 09 - 03:21 PM

pdq - Ahmadinejad has never called for Israel "to be wiped off the map". That is a misquote of something quite different that Ahmadinejad said in a speech a long time ago (and he was quoting a previous statement by Ayatollah Kohmeini which ALSO did not call for Israel to be wiped off the map by Iran or anyone else, it merely stated that the present political regime that is now running Israel would one day "pass from the Earth". In other words, it's a political regime that is not going to last forever. Well, no kidding! NO political regime lasts forever! They are all eventually replaced by something else.).

The Iranian government has not threatened to wipe Israel off the map. Iran has invaded no other country in the modern era. But it has BEEN invaded...by Iraq. And it is being threatened repeatedly...in various aggressive rhetoric by the USA and Israel...and the USA forces have Iran effectively surrounded by their forces in Iraq, Afghanistan, and the Persian Gulf. They don't talk about "wiping Iran off the map", however, they talk about "regime change". How would you like it if a foreign power talked about accomplishing regime change in YOUR country through force of arms? You wouldn't like it one bit.

You are repeating a myth which has already been repeated 50,000 times or more by the western media and by people such as yourself who have no trouble repeating and believing a myth that they have heard, because it suits what they wish to believe.

Ahmadinejad did NOT make any statement about wiping Israel off the map.

It doesn't matter how many times you say he did, you cannot make that falsehood true. Nor does it matter how many times your media repeats the lie.

I know you wish it WAS true. You probably believe it IS true. Well, too bad. It isn't.

Subject: RE: BS: Election in Iran
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 21 Jun 09 - 03:15 PM

Of course Iran is in "the Middle East", in the same sense that Germany is in Europe and Kansas is in the USA,

Subject: RE: BS: Election in Iran
From: robomatic
Date: 21 Jun 09 - 01:30 PM

Still no 'evidence' regarding Israel's intentions to dominate the Middle East and Iran (which is not quite in the Middle East). Just folks' 'pinions. And it's off topic of the thread, just the standard attempt to vilify at each and every opportunity.

Also, no one is out to denigrate the many and long contributions of the Islamic world toward original science, maths, arts, and the preservation of great classical works. That was not the point being asserted about the lack of and Enlightenment period in the Islamic world, of a toppling of the religious authoritarian modes of leadership which did happen in the West, over a long period of time.

Again, either some posters are unaware of the distinction or seeking to obfuscate.

Subject: RE: BS: Election in Iran
From: CarolC
Date: 21 Jun 09 - 01:28 PM

I believe I said last night or today. The day is not over yet. So please try to be patient. I know that's difficult for some people, but it is possible for grown-ups to do.