Growth of Sharia Law Midlands UK

Subject: Growth of Sharia Law Midlands UK
From: Rasener
Date: 05 Jul 09 - 03:57 AM

I find this report rather disturbing (assuming the report is factual), especially as it is illegal and would appear to be growing out of control.

http://www.sundaymercury.net/news/midlands-news/2009/07/05/islamic-sharia-law-courts-operating-in-west-midlands-66331-24075255/

Does it concern other mudcatters, or is it a storm in a tea cup?

Subject: RE: Growth of Sharia Law Midlands UK
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 05 Jul 09 - 04:11 AM

Yes, it worries me. There are, it seems to me, three different levels of interaction between voluntarily assumed "legal" principles and indigenous law using in the latter case the word "law" correctly.

First, there is a wide range of circumstances in which individuals (if not coerced) are free to agree what their legal rights and obligations are. This is "freedom of contract". It does not apply in relation to the criminal law.

Second, there is another range of circumstances in which UK (and European) law has decided that individuals may not agree to give up thier legal rights - some exclusion clauses are unenforceable against consumers, for example, see the Unfair Contract Terms Act (which also has some application in relation to rights in tort as well as contract) and the Unfair Terms in Consumer Contracts Regulations. I am of the view that the voluntary agreement to exclude such rights should be (and indeed is) unenforceable whether it arises through the adoption of a differnet system of "law" or otherwise. Indeed UCTA contains provisions directed at such practices, and so does European law relating to the recognition and enforcement of judgments.

Third, there is crime. Personal agreement does not affect what the criminal law is.

I am therefore of the view that agreements between parties in this country to be bound by eg Sharia (or Rabbinical, come to that) law should be treated as contrary to public policy save so far as my first category is concerned. That is, however, not, it seems, the government's view.

Subject: RE: Growth of Sharia Law Midlands UK
From: DMcG
Date: 05 Jul 09 - 04:32 AM

I was with you all the way, Richard, until the last sentence. On the very few occasions I've heard anyone from government speak on this, they have agreed with your 1st and 3rd points (the second was not mentioned, rather than disagreed with.) Their view seemed to be that people could agree to be bound by Sharia and Rabbinical Law (type #1), except where it contravened UK law (which would be both #2 and #3)

Subject: RE: Growth of Sharia Law Midlands UK
From: The Sandman
Date: 05 Jul 09 - 04:39 AM

well if it is factually correct,it is something I would be concerned about.

Subject: RE: Growth of Sharia Law Midlands UK
From: Rasener
Date: 05 Jul 09 - 05:02 AM

I guess the newspaaper would be very silly, if it hadn't done it's research properly and the report was not factual. You would expect that they would check every sentence in the article, as it could spark a huge amount of controversy.

Subject: RE: Growth of Sharia Law Midlands UK
From: Royston
Date: 05 Jul 09 - 05:05 AM

I have never heard such a load of bollocks in my life.

The story is bunk. It mixes up the concept of any Sharia tribunal that might be operating in this country with nutty ramblings by independent clerics on IslamOnline.

UK law does not recognise any unrecognised tribunal. Simple as that. One sharia tribunal (mentioned in the article and based an university, has been recognised for its mediation service. Some mosques offer sharia as a valid form of ADR (alternative dispute resolution) whereby parties in dispute attempt ADR in an effort to avoid a court-date. If both parties don't feel a fair compromise in ADR then they walk away and continue through the courts. What's the problem?

Now if community-members choose to go to a sharia court to resolve their own disputes, without prejudice to their legal rights - what's the problem? The Jewish community have operated religious courts (Beth Din) in this country for decades - and if you think that Judaism is nice cuddly inclusive set of beliefs then you are sorely mistaken.

In Nigeria the Sharia courts work in Parallel with the secular legal system. Criminals can choose Sharia courts or Secular courts. If they don't like their sentence then they are free to appeal to the secular court. Only the secular prison and justice system can carry out sentence so there is the maximum protection to people. The system works very well there - so well that an increasing number of Christians opt into the Sharia process.

A lot of Muslim women resort to Sharia courts because the Sharia is much more weighted towards the women and children in cases of the husband's infidelity or unreasonable behaviour, where it leads to divorce.

This story is very poor and is carefully crafted to wind up reactions in reactionary people. Very disappointing.

Subject: RE: Growth of Sharia Law Midlands UK
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 05 Jul 09 - 05:22 AM

"I guess the newspaaper would be very silly, if it hadn't done it's research properly and the report was not factual."

Yes, it's inconceivable that a British newspaper would be so silly!

Subject: RE: Growth of Sharia Law Midlands UK
From: Paul Burke
Date: 05 Jul 09 - 05:24 AM

There was an article about this in the Guardian on, I think, Friday. One point made was that women in some social groupings are at a huge disadvantage, through poor English (thier access to information being filtered through their community), and consequent ignorance of their rights and access to the mainstream legal system. This latter has already been greatly restricted by the virtual abolition of legal aid.

Subject: RE: Growth of Sharia Law Midlands UK
From: Royston
Date: 05 Jul 09 - 05:41 AM

Paul, you are right. There are regrettably some who are in the position you describe, but this is a tragic minority - typically the small number of "imported" brides and does not apply to British-born or educated people, making up (in any statistically correct the descrption) effectively all of the UK Muslim community.

A lot of community effort (outreach, charity, refuge-provision) is directed at finding and helping these people and the police are beginning to work fabulously with these groups. Just a shame that they find it difficult to get the funding they need.

So it's not all bad, just remember to keep perspective. The problem of abused Muslim wives is no more prevalent than abused wives in the wider community; the only difference is until recently there was less support for Muslim women.

A lot of problems of abuse and deprivations are becoming apparent now in connection with the the growing popularity of "internet-brides" amongst American / European men.4

Regrettably the desire of some men to abuse women is a phenomenon that transcend all lines of race, creed and colour.

Subject: RE: Growth of Sharia Law Midlands UK
From: Rasener
Date: 05 Jul 09 - 05:54 AM

Royston, you seem to have a good understanding of what is going on. So what are your comments on this extract from the article.

Civitas director Dr David Green last night called for an immediate end to the recognition of Islamic courts by British law.

He said: "The reality is that for many Muslims, sharia courts are in practice part of an institutionalised atmosphere of intimidation, backed by the ultimate sanction of a death threat."

Subject: RE: Growth of Sharia Law Midlands UK
From: Royston
Date: 05 Jul 09 - 06:18 AM

UK law does not recognise any courts other than the courts of the crown in criminal matters. That will never change. Unless the BNP get in, as they advocate the death penalty.

So UK law does not recognise any Sharia court or Beth Din in the criminal sphere and in any event this country does not have the death sentence, so it would not be available to any tribunal now or in the future. The story is a total farce. Wrong, fallacious, incorrect, mendacious, spurious, vexatious. Get the message?

UK law recognises jewish courts deciding civil - property, family, money - cases where both parties have agreed the jurisdiction. So why not Muslim courts. Or Christian courts. I just don't see the problem.

Beth Din are not open to public scrutiny, nobody complains. In fact a lot of the UK family court proceedings are in closed chambers for obvious reasons. What's the problem?

Subject: RE: Growth of Sharia Law Midlands UK
From: Royston
Date: 05 Jul 09 - 06:31 AM

Sorry, i added the comment about bnp in the wrong Place. Should attach to the bit about death penalty, not about recognition of tribunals.

Subject: RE: Growth of Sharia Law Midlands UK
From: Rasener
Date: 05 Jul 09 - 06:33 AM

So are you saying that people are not intimidated or that anybody is killed due to Sharia Law?

Subject: RE: Growth of Sharia Law Midlands UK
From: Rasener
Date: 05 Jul 09 - 06:35 AM

Sorry, I should have added "in the UK"

Subject: RE: Growth of Sharia Law Midlands UK
From: Lox
Date: 05 Jul 09 - 06:39 AM

Are there any examples of murders carried out under the banner of Sharia law in the UK?

Anyone who commits a murder in the UK faces prison.

Subject: RE: Growth of Sharia Law Midlands UK
From: The Sandman
Date: 05 Jul 09 - 07:01 AM

If the article is correct,I would like to raise this point.
ok,do we as English have the same right to English law,in Muslim countries.
if this article is correct[which I doubt],we as people of a different race and religion should be entitled to English law,in Israel,and also in Muslim countries.
Correct me if I am wrong,but I dont think this is presently the case.
the English system of law[which includes Innocent until proven guilty],is in my opinion the fairest in the world.

Subject: RE: Growth of Sharia Law Midlands UK
From: Royston
Date: 05 Jul 09 - 07:02 AM

Villan, I am saying that to both counts in your message. There are cases of so called honour killings which are rare and which are simply murders investigated and dealt with as such.

The most recent 'honour killing' was perpetrated by a white briton who massacred his family, horses, pets and torched the family home rather than face the dishonour of losing them all. I can't remember the name of the case but others will. It was in Reading or Swindon?

People are intimidated into all sorts of things every day. That is why we have laws, courts and police. This is just another islamophobic scare story. Utter bollocks.

Subject: RE: Growth of Sharia Law Midlands UK
From: Royston
Date: 05 Jul 09 - 07:07 AM

Oh grow up you reactionary fool - birdseye - we don't flog people here either so don't start arguing we should take a leaf out of the Saudi's book. Idiot.

Whether you agree with religious courts or not, you must recognise what the debate is about. Religious courts, like the recognised jewish ones, are optional for people who choose an alternative forum and limited to civil, not criminal, issues.

Subject: RE: Growth of Sharia Law Midlands UK
From: Rasener
Date: 05 Jul 09 - 07:11 AM

>>Oh grow up you reactionary fool - birdseye - we don't flog people here either so don't start arguing we should take a leaf out of the Saudi's book. Idiot.<<

Roysten, you are now flaming. Please make your points without getting personal.

Subject: RE: Growth of Sharia Law Midlands UK
From: Rasener
Date: 05 Jul 09 - 07:11 AM

>>Roysten<<

Sorry it should have been Royston

Subject: RE: Growth of Sharia Law Midlands UK
From: greg stephens
Date: 05 Jul 09 - 07:25 AM

The paper is a right wing rag and the reporting and the use of inflammatory visulas is disgraceful. Deliberate and dishonest tension raising.

Subject: RE: Growth of Sharia Law Midlands UK
From: Rasener
Date: 05 Jul 09 - 07:33 AM

That's strange Greg. As a brummie, I always thought that The Sunday Mercury was a decent paper. Maybe it has gone downhill since I left Birmingham.
Les

Subject: RE: Growth of Sharia Law Midlands UK
From: The Sandman
Date: 05 Jul 09 - 08:15 AM

quote,Royston
Whether you agree with religious courts or not, you must recognise what the debate is about. Religious courts, like the recognised jewish ones, are optional for people who choose an alternative forum and limited to civil, not criminal, issues. End of quote.
logically then Jewish people should have these options in Muslim countries,do they? do Christian people have an option in Muslim countries?Do Muslims have this option in Israel?
Royston,I am not reactionary[backward looking].
I am a believer in equality,regardless of creed race or sex,something that the Muslim religion is not.
I shall ignore your childish insults.
if this report is true[which I doubt],I would be concerned unless the freedom and tolerance that IS shown in this country is reciprocated by the allowance and tolerance of other religious courts in Muslim countries.
how much respect and religous tolerance is shown to hindus, jews,christians in Muslim countries.
how much respect is shown in Israel to Muslims and Hindus?
the Muslim religion,in common with many other religons is reactionary[backward looking]it looks back to the Prophet Mahomet,its treatment of women is indefensible.

Subject: RE: Growth of Sharia Law Midlands UK
From: Paul Burke
Date: 05 Jul 09 - 09:20 AM

Dick, you're throwing out red herrings like a surrealist muckspreader. Stick to the point. Sharia Law in the UK is constrained by British (English or Scottish as it applies) law. Any decisions that contradict British law are unlawful, and potentially criminal. What happens in other countries is as irrelevant as claiming it's wrong for morrismen to black up because Christy Minstrels did.

Villan, Civitas is a rather suspect organisation, shading rightwards from Telegraph style Disgusteds, and it's not safe to use them as an authority on much. Their general thesis is that the Whole Country is Going To The Dogs.

Greg, by "inflammatory visulas" did you mean "inflamed fistulas"? You can get a cream for that nowadays.

I think what it boils down to is:

Whatever Muslims do, some people will object.
Attitudes to women in some Muslim communities are lamentably similar to those in some of the traditional British communities of the BNP heartland.
Ignorance is seldom bliss, but it's always useful to anyone with an axe to grind.

Subject: RE: Growth of Sharia Law Midlands UK
From: fairplay
Date: 05 Jul 09 - 11:40 AM

1. Sharia 'aspires' to jurisdiction over all areas of law and life, not just civil arbitration.
2. We don't execute rape victims, even in Yorkshire. Nor do we kill people for adultery, homosexuality or apostasy.
3. Even though women are maltreated in our society, 'honour killings' are not sanctioned and lauded by society, religion, law and state.

Subject: RE: Growth of Sharia Law Midlands UK
From: Royston
Date: 05 Jul 09 - 11:45 AM

Birdseye, your original argument amounts to;

Some so-called islamic states are not tolerant of other faiths, so we should be intolerant of our British muslim citizens.

Which is the same as saying that Saudi dictatorship is an exemplar for relations with minority faiths.

Both of which are silly. Neither of which you actually believe; I don't get the sense you might be a salafi / wahabi fundamentalist.

If you believe this great country of ours to be better than a tinpot dictatorship then you probably should feel some symapthy with the progressive views on this board.

Subject: RE: Growth of Sharia Law Midlands UK
From: Royston
Date: 05 Jul 09 - 12:01 PM

'fairplay'

Sharia aspires...

No, it does not. Sharia is a name for a system of social rules and procedures for maintaining order in a society.

Sharia cannot aspire to be or do anything.

Some politically motivated creatures use the religion of islam to further their own aspirations for power and control. They do not speak for the 1 billion plus muslims. Hell, go to your local mosque and you won't find 10 people who agree on anything.

If you go to any culture that's about 1000yrs 'behind' the west then you will find things that seem incomprehensible. I know, I've been there! This tells you nothing about anyone or anywhere else and certainly tells you nothing about Birmingham!

People keep spreading crap about muslims and their crazy outdated superstitious beliefs when the world should really fear doctor-murdering christians - resurgence of USA christian terrorists attacking and killing abortion doctors.

12 lunatics killed 3000 people in 9/11 but bush got as many servicemen killed in Iraq plus about 300,000 innocent civilians because God told him that gog and magog were doing the devil's work in Baghdad. Source - Jacques Chirac reporting a conversation with GWB in 2003.

That a few decent folk in UK want a different way of resolving civil disputes before they resort to courts is not what we should be worrying about

Subject: RE: Growth of Sharia Law Midlands UK
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 05 Jul 09 - 12:13 PM

If it was possible to elect for a determination of a civil dispute (be it contractual, tortious, or matrimonial) under Sharia law, then remedies/defences conferred by UK law would not be available.

The same applie, in my view, to the Beth Din, which is why in my view it should not be possible to contract out of one's legal rights.

Mediation is a different kettle of fish (whatever law applies). The resolution reached in mediation is binding becase of agreement of that resolution, not the rules applicable in it, in just the same way as civil legal proceedings may be settled by agreement.

Subject: RE: Growth of Sharia Law Midlands UK
From: Royston
Date: 05 Jul 09 - 12:27 PM

Fair view, Richard. Everybody else please note.

Why does this have to be, in some other people's minds, another "bash the muslims" festival.

Subject: RE: Growth of Sharia Law Midlands UK
From: Rasener
Date: 05 Jul 09 - 01:13 PM

>>Their general thesis is that the Whole Country is Going To The Dogs<<

It already has gone to the dogs, but nothing to do with Sharia Law

Subject: RE: Growth of Sharia Law Midlands UK
From: The Sandman
Date: 05 Jul 09 - 01:18 PM

Royston,I did not say that.
I said that the Muslim religion ,
expects tolerance but is not tolerant of other religions,the same applies to the jewish religion,if in the country of israel,they do not allow sharia law,or any other religious courts.
both religions expect other peole to be tolerant ,but are not tolerant themselves,they need to put their owen houses in order.
tolerance is a two way street.neither am I Muslim bashing,I said that if this newspaper report was true[which I doubted]I would be concerned,being concerned is not Muslim bashing.
so Royston,p### off,and stop putting words into my mouth.

Subject: RE: Growth of Sharia Law Midlands UK
From: skipy
Date: 05 Jul 09 - 01:37 PM

It is too late to worry, this is not OUR country anymore.
Please don't bother to take the time to call me a racist because I AM NOT! Just a realist.
Skipy

Subject: RE: Growth of Sharia Law Midlands UK
From: Rasener
Date: 05 Jul 09 - 01:56 PM

I personally do not want to see the growth of any courts no matter who are what they represent, other than British Law Courts.

If you go into other countries you should live life the way they do. If you don't like it, then you should go back to your own country.

I also think that you shouldn't be allowed in anybody elses country unless you have a job to go to.

Subject: RE: Growth of Sharia Law Midlands UK
From: Royston
Date: 05 Jul 09 - 02:04 PM

Birdseye, I am not putting words in your mouth, you are!

both religions expect other peole to be tolerant ,but are not tolerant themselves,they need to put their owen houses in order.

All the religious texts of the abrahamic faiths preach tolerance and respect to all. It is some people that fail to live up to that and who take selective quotes from Torah, Qur'an and Bible to justify their own wrong-thinking.

Because GW Bush murders thousands 'cos God told him to, or because some christians gun down doctrs, should we infer something about the minds of all Christians?

Should we expect the peaceful muslim citizens of Birmingham to reform the middle east before we treat them with respectful interest? Or are you saying (above) that until the Muslim world and faith (of which you know nothing) appear to act as you would wish, that we should reserve the right to exact some sort of revenge or punishment on our own Muslim citizens?

Is Islam intolerant?

Mankind! We created you from a male and female, and made you into peoples and tribes so that you might come to know each other (not hate each other) Qur'an 49:13

Let there be no compulsion in religion: Truth stands out clear from Error Qur'an 2:256

Those who believe (in the Qur'an), and those who follow the Jewish (scriptures), and the Christians and the Sabians,- any who believe in Allah and the Last Day, and work righteousness, shall have their reward with their Lord; on them shall be no fear, nor shall they grieve. Qur'an 2:62

Discuss, but for god's sake make sure you actually know something first!

Subject: RE: Growth of Sharia Law Midlands UK
From: Royston
Date: 05 Jul 09 - 02:08 PM

Skipy

It's no more or less your country than it is mine or than it is a hard-working Muslim or Jew or Rastafarian or Atheist or whatever. We're all in this together, mate.

Subject: RE: Growth of Sharia Law Midlands UK
From: skipy
Date: 05 Jul 09 - 02:22 PM

I am not your "mate"! If I ever meet you I will decide as you will if we are to be "mates"!

Subject: RE: Growth of Sharia Law Midlands UK
From: fairplay
Date: 05 Jul 09 - 02:49 PM

If Sharia doesn't 'aspire' to total jurisdiction, it certainly asserts a claim to it!

According to Bawer, 40 % of Muslims in Britain favour the imposition of Sharia Law.

Subject: RE: Growth of Sharia Law Midlands UK
From: The Sandman
Date: 05 Jul 09 - 02:50 PM

Royston,
do muslim countries allow other religious courts,to make decisions,in muslim countries,are jews allowed to hold their own religious courts in muslim countries.
and are muslims allowed to practise their religious courts,in Israel.
please answer these questions.
if the answer is no,then they expect to be treated in a more tolerant manner,than their own religions practice in the countries where they are the established religion.
now provide us with facts.

Subject: RE: Growth of Sharia Law Midlands UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 05 Jul 09 - 02:51 PM

this is not OUR country anymore

It never has been, skipy. Nice to see you posting again btw:-) It has always belonged to the rich and powerful. Us plebs, of all faiths, need to stick together. The press are owned by the powerful and use these stories to keep us fighting between ourselves. They hope that by being devisive we will not notice the real injustice. Unfortunately most people do seem to be fooled most of the time:-(

Cheers

DeG

Subject: RE: Growth of Sharia Law Midlands UK
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 05 Jul 09 - 03:14 PM

Captain, isn't that true of all organised religions, including the religious right in the USA, who, for example, assert that fornication is a crime, and that persons carrying out legal abortions are murderers?

It seems to me that all religions seek special privileges. Take "faith" schools, for example - all of them.

Subject: RE: Growth of Sharia Law Midlands UK
From: Royston
Date: 05 Jul 09 - 03:39 PM

DeG - Thank you!

Birdseye...get with it! No I do not think that we should be showing any favouritism or consideration to despots or countries which allow bigotry.

We are talking about being fair here, to our citizens. What happens in Saudi / Pakistan / Iran...is not relevant at all.

I say again, I hate intolerance wherever it appears and I will fight to stamp it out in MY country. Let the others fester. Because country 'A' is rotten, doesn't justify us following suit.

fairplay...Bruce Bawer is a right-wing polemicist. He does not claim to make an evidence-based argument, he argues a personal conviction. That he says something does not make it so. Anyway, if you ask a person of faith if they regard their moral/ethical code as being "right" then they are bound to say yes.

From my extensive immersion in Islamic culture here and abroad, I would tell you that probably 40% of Muslims say Sharia law should be ovserved by Muslims, wherever they find themselves, not forced on non-muslim populations; and that is a vital distinction. You can take what I say or you can leave it but it is no more or less valid than Bawer's views or your own views. If you only listen to Bawer and his like then you have limited input to work with.

Islam, like Judaism, is not a proselytising religion, it does not canvas believers and does not seek to impose itself on the unwilling. (See references above). When has anyone ever seen a shouty Imam in a shopping street, or had turban-wielding shia clerics handing out "Umm Al Watchtower" door to door? Only nutty firebrand lunatics make it onto CNN / FOX / SKY etc and their inane ramblings have little or no bearing on the lives and views of over a billion Muslim people.

By the way I can absolutely promise each and every one of you that if you wanted to go to your local mosque and just sit and watch or talk to people or the Imam about any questions or worries then you will be absolutely welcomed with open arms. Give it a go. You only have to stow your shoes at the door!

Subject: RE: Growth of Sharia Law Midlands UK
From: gnu
Date: 05 Jul 09 - 03:45 PM

Two wrongs do not make a right.

Subject: RE: Growth of Sharia Law Midlands UK
From: skipy
Date: 05 Jul 09 - 04:01 PM

DeG, I just made one comment, that does not mean that I am "posting again" I would like to but Joe will take me out because can, so he will.
I do read threads most nights but know that my joining in is pointless.

Subject: RE: Growth of Sharia Law Midlands UK
From: The Sandman
Date: 05 Jul 09 - 04:04 PM

I never suggested that we should follow suit or show intolerance,but I think we should be under no illusions about religions, be they muslim or jewish, or right wing american christians[as mentioned by Richard Bridge] that show intolerance to others but expect tolerance themselves.
for the record when I lived in Nottingham,I regularly went to my local sikh community centre,for my midday meal,and I observed and fitted in with their custom,of not sitting next to or on the same table as an indian woman.
I do think it would help,if the Muslim and the Jewish religion extended the same tolerance to other religions in their own countries,as they expect to be shown in England.
Royston,I see you still havent answered my question,I would suggest that before you insult people[and read meanings into other peoples posts] on this forum ,that you read their pots carefully.
I am not a reactionary,but muslim fundamentalists are,and their treatment of women is outdated,backward looking and reactionary.

Subject: RE: Growth of Sharia Law Midlands UK
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 05 Jul 09 - 06:15 PM

The oppression (maybe I mean enthrallment) of women by Islam - and I do think it exists - is I think alarming, but only somewhat more so than other religions - for example Hassidic beliefs impose many obligations on women and so indeed do many branches of Christianity.

Unless it is underpinned however by some sort of law, the acceptance of that oppression by Moslem is at most a matter of cultural conditioning and peer pressure (possibly illegal peer pressure) and ultimately therefore is voluntary.

Another reason why I oppose religious courts.

Does anyone know when the last petition for jactitation of marriage was heard in an English ecclesiastical court?

Subject: RE: Growth of Sharia Law Midlands UK
From: fairplay
Date: 06 Jul 09 - 03:41 AM

Royston

If you think Islam is non-proselytizing, you haven't been to Brick Lane or Hyde Park recently.

The best that non-Muslims can hope for under Islam is a state of Dhimmitude. Europe's Muslims are becoming more assertive as they grow in numbers and power.

Subject: RE: Growth of Sharia Law Midlands UK
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)
Date: 06 Jul 09 - 04:07 AM

Yes, keep ALL forms of religion out of education, politics and legal matters. Most especially where anything to do with women and children is involved.

Bit of a tangent, but there was quite an interesting doco. the other night demonstrating the importance of racial tolerance within an Islamic school: where a white girl was being excluded and teased by the other girls for not being a 'proper' Muslim, the school took action straight away to eradicate the exclusion based on skin colour.

Though, the fact that an eight year old child believes she will burn in Hellfire if she doesn't cover up her hair, is more than a little sad.. And I think, is worth considering in relation to Richards comments above. It looked a very good school, and I was interested to see how seriously the teachers took the bullying, but I dislike intensely all forms of brainwashing.

Subject: RE: Growth of Sharia Law Midlands UK
From: pdq
Date: 06 Jul 09 - 04:11 AM

...perhaps these lovely folks are just misunderstood:

Taliban buying children for suicide bombers

By Sara A. Carter (Contact)
Originally published 04:45 a.m., July 2, 2009, updated 02:11 p.m., July 2, 2009         

Pakistan's top Taliban leader, Baitullah Mehsud, is buying children as young as 7 to serve as suicide bombers in the growing spate of attacks against Pakistani, Afghan and U.S. targets, U.S. Defense Department and Pakistani officials say.

A Pakistani official, who spoke on the condition that he not be named because of the sensitive nature of the topic, said the going price for child bombers was $7,000 to $14,000 - huge sums in Pakistan, where per-capita income is about $2,600 a year.

"[Mehsud] has turned suicide bombing into a production output, not unlike [the way] Toyota outputs cars," a U.S. Defense Department official told reporters recently. He spoke on the condition that he not be named because of ongoing intelligence efforts to catch Mehsud, a prime target for a U.S. and Pakistani anti-Taliban campaign.

An apparent U.S. effort to kill Mehsud last week failed. On Sunday, the Pakistani government offered a reward of about $615,300 for information leading to the capture of Mehsud, dead or alive. The U.S. State Department has offered a bounty of $5 million for Mehsud, who is thought to be hiding in the tribal areas near the Afghan border.

Suicide bombings have become frequent in Pakistan in the past year, including high-profile attacks on hotels frequented by Westerners, as well as on Pakistani police and military installations. There has also been a spate of such attacks directed at U.S.-led forces in Afghanistan.

The U.S. official said the price depends on how quickly the bomber is needed and how close the child is expected to get to the target. "[Mehsud] produces these suicide bombers, which are sold or bartered, which can be used by [Afghan Taliban leader Mullah] Omar's Taliban or ... other groups," the U.S. official said.

In some cases, he said, the children are kidnapped and then sold to Mehsud.

Using child suicide bombers "is the grim reality of the Taliban Frankenstein that now threatens to overwhelm the Pakistani state," said Bruce Riedel, a Brookings Institution scholar who chaired a review of Pakistan-Afghanistan strategy for President Obama.

Efforts to reach a spokesman for Mehsud were not successful.

Subject: RE: Growth of Sharia Law Midlands UK
From: Rasener
Date: 06 Jul 09 - 04:28 AM

If true, just to despicable for words.

Subject: RE: Growth of Sharia Law Midlands UK
From: Lox
Date: 06 Jul 09 - 04:43 AM

Ah yes,

Thanks PDQ,

More proof I see that Islam is the religion of violence murder etc ...


... just a quick question though, ... if Moslems are all hell bent on killing everyone else and don't care if they die in the process, then how do you explain the fact that Pakistan, an Islamic state which, by all accounts is full of Moslems - quite a lot of them - and run by Moslems, and has a nuclear arsenal, yet hasn't nuked anyone?

What's goin on?

They've had nukes for ages ...

Is it because they're just deviously waiting for the right moment?



And does it have any relevance to this thread?

Hmmm....


I'm going to go and think about both of these difficult questions.

Subject: RE: Growth of Sharia Law Midlands UK
From: Gervase
Date: 06 Jul 09 - 04:51 AM

Much as it pains me as a militant atheist, I think Yoyston is spot on. The original article is a lazy piece of mischief-making by a local newspaper, and typical of the sort of stuff one sees in the Express and Mail. As such there's little wonder at the astonishing ignorance of the Anglo community when it comes to a few of their fellow citizens.
And user 'fairplay', by the way, is merely a sock-puppet for the BNP, as his/her posting history shows.

Subject: RE: Growth of Sharia Law Midlands UK
From: Lox
Date: 06 Jul 09 - 04:55 AM

Yes Gervase.

Fairplay appeared around the time when GuestDMR seemed to stop posting.

We are all switched on to him/her.

Subject: RE: Growth of Sharia Law Midlands UK
From: The Sandman
Date: 06 Jul 09 - 05:52 AM

There are some branches of the christian religion that in the 21st century are tolerant,the church of england,and the society of friends
give me the quaker religion any time rather than the backward looking reactionary muslim religion.
however unless all religions are going to be tolerant of others, and extend the same tolerance they expect to others and it appears that the jewish and muslim religion are not,it would be better not to have any religious courts.

Subject: RE: Growth of Sharia Law Midlands UK
From: Royston
Date: 06 Jul 09 - 06:13 AM

Fairplay, thank you. I was in Brick Lane on saturday night and am a frequent and regular visitor there. I have a friend with a flat off Brick Lane. The only proselytisers there are nutty Christians who are tolerated by the community with quiet good humour.

Hyde Park...what's your point? At any given time there are 5 or 6 nutters on soap-boxes at HP Corner arguing all sort of nonsense. I haven't actually ever seen a Muslim arguing about Islam there, but in any event that would be meaningless - just another crank.

Now if you mean London Central Mosque then you are referring to Regent's Park and have demonstrated to everyone that you have not been there and do not know anything about the subject.

If you mean preaching in the street then you are probably referring to the fact that Abu Hamsa (hook-handed loon) was rightly kicked out of Finsbury Park mosque and in protest would hold his own counter-service on Fridays in the street, shouting to 10-15 of his loony supporters, not trying to convert anyone else because, like you, he hates or fears everyone that isn't like himself. Hamsa is now, rightly, in Prison and being deported.

PDQ...you won't find anyone arguing that Taleban are good. Don't be so maliciously absurd. Taleban has nothing to do with the good people of Birmingham. Other Muslims in Afghanistan and Pakistan are fighting with their own blood, and that of our brave troops, to defeat the lunatic scum and it is shamefully unpatriotic and divisive and malicious of you to even consider making a parallel between our great nation and its peaceful inhabitants and the actions of such a group of murderers. And I bet you'll have the bloody nerve to call yourself a patriot!

Lox. That some Muslims are murderous cranks does not make Islam a religion of war and says nothing about Muslims as a whole.

That some Christians are murderour cranks (as demonstrated in USA today) does not make Christianity a religion of war and says nothing about Christians as a whole.

That Judaism includes terrorist Zionists (first terrorist bombing in the modern sense was King David Hotel in Jerusalem, blown up by terrorist Jews in 1946 with 91 deaths and 46 injured) does not make Judaism a religion of war and does not tell us anthing about Jews as a whole.

You see the thing about racists and fascists is that they know nothing and think about nothing except their own internal fear, anger and bitterness. They spew unrelated facts or more generally halftruths that appeal to their base natures in the hope that others will be swayed similarly. I know that they won't actually read and respond to any argument, however, cogent. All thinking people; just watch them and learn to know and recognise them!

Subject: RE: Growth of Sharia Law Midlands UK
From: Royston
Date: 06 Jul 09 - 06:22 AM

Oh dear.

OK I didn't get the irony in Lox's post which I now see clearly. I was obviously still blinded by the sheer awfulness of PDQ's post above it.

Sorry Lox, nothing in my last post is directed at you at all! Why on earth isn't there an edit function on this board?

Subject: RE: Growth of Sharia Law Midlands UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 06 Jul 09 - 06:32 AM

Some issues that emerged in a recent Guardian article.
If couples do not marry according to UK civil law (and I have seen a fatwa ruling that they need not register their marriage with the British authorities), there may be serious consequences in the event of divorce; in the custody of children (which always goes against the woman); with respect to alimony (a man does not have to pay any, except for the children) and with regard to rights to a share in the family home (which a woman does not have). During the marriage, a man may coerce his wife to have sex, (though wives do not have that right); a husband may confine his wife to their home; if one or the other partner abandons Islam, (the marriage is declared null and void). It is considered wrong to reject polygamy. If a woman wishes to divorce her husband, it is made dependent on obtaining her husband's permission and the agreement of a sharia court. A woman may not marry a non-Muslim and a man may marry only a Jewish or Christian woman. Legal adoption is prohibited, but if a child has been adopted, he or she may not inherit from the adoptive parents. The Leyton-based Islamic Shariah Council has issued rulings including one that forbids a woman of any age to marry without a male "guardian"; another that says a man only has to intend to divorce for it to be valid; one that insists that a polygamous marriage must be maintained even in the UK (Islamic Shariah Council); and another that excuses a man from making alimony payments after divorce.

If Islamic tribunals are to arbitrate according to such antiquated and discriminatory rulings, they condemn British Muslim women to a life as second-class citizens with barely any rights. And if they claim to advise only within the framework of British law, then what are they doing in the first place? The only solution to this scandalous situation is to ban such tribunals entirely and let Muslims, like everybody else in this country, abide by a single code of laws. Sharia courts must be excluded from recognition under the 1996 Arbitration Act if justice for all does not become a farce.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/belief/2009/jun/29/religion-islam-sharia-britain

Subject: RE: Growth of Sharia Law Midlands UK
From: Royston
Date: 06 Jul 09 - 06:53 AM

Keith, do you not read anything here.

You are not referring to a journalistic article, it is a personal polemic by the same author of the Crapitas (Civitas) report that started this whole thing off. It was on the Guardian Comment is Free (WORTHLESS more like) website.

For crying out loud will somebody save me from these numpties.

There is no proof, oontext or reference to anything in his article or your lame posting. That is the whole point of a polemic, it needs no basis in fact, no proof, no journalistic rigour. That is why it is on CIF and not in the paper.

In any event, like the Beth Din which are legally recognised, no judgement can be enforced that was not in accordance with English Law. They cannot hand down a family-law decision that would breach English law, particulary where it related to issues of child protection or welfare.

I don't think that there sgh

Subject: RE: Growth of Sharia Law Midlands UK
From: Royston
Date: 06 Jul 09 - 06:56 AM

hit send too early...

I don't think there should be any religious courts at all. One nation, one law, one justice-system.

What I object to is that English law has allowed religious courts for centuries but seeks to deny it to one group and not another on the back of a whole load of incredibly damaging racist hysteria which other liberals seem to buy into en masse. It is disgraceful.

Subject: RE: Growth of Sharia Law Midlands UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 06 Jul 09 - 06:57 AM

OK Royston, here is another piece from that most loberal of all our media.
It is by Zeinab Huq and describes her PERSONAL experience of Sharia law judgements in UK.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/belief/2009/jul/01/sharia-courts-islam

Subject: RE: Growth of Sharia Law Midlands UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 06 Jul 09 - 07:05 AM

Sharia law is a distillation of rulings that purport to represent the divine diktat in all worldly affairs. It provides injunctions for the conduct of criminal, public and even international law. Marriage and divorce, the custody of children, alimony, sexual impropriety and much else come within its remit. Sharia courts claim authority over the private lives of individuals in a way that is contrary to the British tradition where, as David Green points out in his introduction, 'in our legal system no punishments can be applied to individuals who fail to live up to religious requirements' (p.4).
From a press release about the CIVITAS study.
http://www.civitas.org.uk/press/prcs91.php

Subject: RE: Growth of Sharia Law Midlands UK
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 06 Jul 09 - 07:25 AM

Royston, I think PDQ is an American nutter, not one of the UK's.

Keith, I think I should warn you, you may be outclassed here. Royston is actually quite well informed on these and related topics.

Moreover, if you are suggesting that he is supporting Sharia law courts, you should read his posts again. Likewise if you think he is on favour of all Sharia law principles (indeed, I have not seen him yet support any, although he has referred some bigots to some parts of the Koran).

What he is objecting to is the yellow-dog journalism in the "newspaper" first above cited.

Have you yet grasped that Civitas is a propaganda organisation?

Subject: RE: Growth of Sharia Law Midlands UK
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 06 Jul 09 - 07:30 AM

A little more about Civitas: -

Its areas of policy interest include:

Crime Civitas authors have argued for an expansion of prison places, and rehabilitating prisoners through drug programmes and vocational education.
Education Its authors have called for increasing parental choice with a greater range of schools.
Family Civitas authors have argued for the importance of marriage both to the individual and to wider society.
Health Civitas authors have called for an end to the NHS's monopoly on public healthcare and greater diversity in the system.
Immigration Its authors have questioned the benefits of mass immigration and it has set up a Social Cohesion Unit to address "the diminishing sense of community" in Britain.


How the hell it got and keeps it's charity status beats me!

Subject: RE: Growth of Sharia Law Midlands UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 06 Jul 09 - 07:35 AM

Outclassed yes.I can not compete with such a committed zealot.
I am just a casual observer.
Not trying to convert or save the world.
He says he disagrees with religious courts, but is very very defensive of Islamic ones.
He dismisses any criticism of them, however reasonable.

Who is CIVITAS a propagandist for?

Subject: RE: Growth of Sharia Law Midlands UK
From: Rasener
Date: 06 Jul 09 - 07:52 AM

All I have seen Royston do, is be rude to other mudcatters and try to impose his muslim views on the rest of us.

Subject: RE: Growth of Sharia Law Midlands UK
From: Royston
Date: 06 Jul 09 - 07:54 AM

Keith, you have to stop going to CRAPITAS for what you hope might be the truth. They are just rag-tag bunch of media-savvy neo-cons with loud opinions.

You again referred to Comment is Free as "our most liberal of all our media". CIF is just an electronic speaker's corner. It is not journalism.

I respect Zeinab Huq, she speaks sensibly and she speaks from a position of authoritative experience. I do not believe there should be ANY religious courts.

But the law of this country does allow religious courts for some, so why not for others? And why do you and others react with such unique vitriol to stories about Islam?

Zeinab's argument is that the "so-called" Sharia courts are unofficial, unregulated and as she says "often nothing of the sort and are more likely to be an imam at the end of a phone".

She goes on to state that her dislike of Sharia ruling stems from the fact that she didn't get as much cash from her father's estate as she would have wished for. Fair enough from her viewpoint, but it's hard for us to judge if and to what extent she was wronged by a Sharia ruling. As the sharia court is not recognised then she would still have had full recourse to the official legal system but we are to assume she did not take it?

But in any event, if we start from the actual position that this country does already allow religious courts then the answer to the "problem" is to develop an approved and regulated / recognised system of Sharia courts for Muslims who choose to use them. Isn't it? I mean, we accept this for Jews, what's the problem for Muslims?

Come and join us on the "one law" bench and stop banging on about Muslims and Islam like this.

Subject: RE: Growth of Sharia Law Midlands UK
From: Royston
Date: 06 Jul 09 - 08:01 AM

All I have seen Royston do, is be rude to other mudcatters and try to impose his muslim views on the rest of us.

I don't suffer fools gladly and my one political view is that people should not be vile to each other. I go out and read and learn and bring back proof to refute the arguments of those who wish to be hateful.

How "Muslim" is my view There should be NO RELIGIOUS COURTS AT ALL? which has been stated amply.

Subject: RE: Growth of Sharia Law Midlands UK
From: Rasener
Date: 06 Jul 09 - 08:09 AM

Just to clarify things
I am not religious and as far as I am concerned, religion should have no part to play in British Law. The fact it does, is beyond my control.
I believe in morality and have brought my children up to understand and abide by morality. They have not been christened as that is something they can decide to do, if they so wish.

Royston
How do you know that there isn't the growth of Sharia Law in the Midlands?

Subject: RE: Growth of Sharia Law Midlands UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 06 Jul 09 - 08:10 AM

I have no axe to grind for CIVITAS, but you can not just dismiss their findings.
In this case, their finding that UK Sharia is highly discriminatory against women is upheld by Huq who you say you respect.
So they were right about that?

I do not know much about Jewish courts, but since they have existed in UK such a long time that suggests to me that they are not very controversial.

If you are really opposed to all religious courts, and a new and even more repressive one is being established, I would expect you to be a bit more critical.
But then, I am just a numpty.

Subject: RE: Growth of Sharia Law Midlands UK
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)
Date: 06 Jul 09 - 08:13 AM

Would I be correct then, in assuming that currently we could (or indeed already do?) have say, Catholic courts?

Subject: RE: Growth of Sharia Law Midlands UK
From: Rasener
Date: 06 Jul 09 - 08:33 AM

Roston
I appreciate that you support only one court system, like myself.

However, just becuase some religions appear to have their own courts already, does not give justification for other religions to jump on the bandwagon.

As far as I am concerned we need to stop Sharia Law creeping into this country, and indeed find a way to stop other such courts being allowed for other religions as well.

The problem is, how do you go about that?

Subject: RE: Growth of Sharia Law Midlands UK
From: Royston
Date: 06 Jul 09 - 08:44 AM

The vast majority of Muslims in the Midlands are of Indian or Pakistani descent. The majority of that community are highly educated British-borna and an ever increasing number are second or third generation British-born. I know that in Muslim communities, a lot of people go to the Imam or a mosque council to arbitrate a range of disputes because both parties want it that way. If this sort of informal community-based ADR grows then more power to it. There are plenty of secular community mediation organisations. You pays your money, you takes your choice.

If there was/is/will be an emerging of trend of 'forced' or in any way unlawful system of tribunals then it would/will be identified by the community and the young, bright, professional majority. This is what has happened with other scandalous (but fringe, extreme) 'old-world' cultural practices like forced marriage and 'accepted' domestic abuse. Muslims themselves have spoken out, organised themselves into support and outreach groups and have brought the full weight of the state and police infrastructure down on the problems.

I work closely, on a volunteering basis, with a group called Imaan, which offers outreach, counselling, immigration and legal support for Lesbian, Gay and Trans-gendered Muslims. That is a demographic which is right at the sharp end of the Shariah debate and old-world cultural baggage, as well as being right at the sharp end of forced marriage, to the limited extent that it occurs. As an anti-fascist activist I naturally work with a wide range of community black and minority-ethnic groups. I have travelled and worked extensively in the Middle East and Iran. I do speak with considerable experience and expertise on these subjects.

I enjoy extensive dialogue with the community activists that are monitoring and working to prevent such phenomena. No, not everything in the 'Muslim garden' is rosy, but I simply do not recognise the world that is painted in the mainstream press; it really is a pack of lies or distorted hyperbole.

Now this is what the subject deserves; discussion, exploration, research - not polemic dressed as fact with the intention of hate and fear-mongering by groups like Crapitas and the right wing media that pick up their rantings and regurgitate it as journalism.

Subject: RE: Growth of Sharia Law Midlands UK
From: Royston
Date: 06 Jul 09 - 08:53 AM

Villan, re: how do you go about that...

The equality position is either no religious courts OR properly implemented and regulated religious courts for all who want them.

Frame a reasoned argument along those lines and state your case whenever/wherever necessary - letters to papers, to MP's, councils etc etc. All the usual democratic processes. But we all need to lift it out of the Civitas / BNP gutter where all you get is racist reaction to inflammatory stories against Muslims which will obviously provoke a backlash and a vicious cycle of mistrust and division.

Exactly what some sectors of our society would like to see us doing.

Reference my quote to skipy "We're all in this together!"

Subject: RE: Growth of Sharia Law Midlands UK
From: Rasener
Date: 06 Jul 09 - 09:00 AM

Royston

The thread is about the increase of Sharia Law in the Midlands.
You haven't answered one very important question.

Has there been an increase in the number of Sharia Courts in the Midlands or not? That means, what was once thought to be 2 Sharia Courts is now 22 Sharia Courts.?

It's all very well slagging off Civitas, but are they correct about the number of Sharia Courts?

Incidentally, your skills in this area are noted and appreciated, but not if you flame people.

Subject: RE: Growth of Sharia Law Midlands UK
From: Rasener
Date: 06 Jul 09 - 09:08 AM

Cross post tehr Royston

I would support an initiative, banning all forms of religious courts. All people living in Britain, should conform to British Law and nothing else.

I agree, that trying to blame one party against another, is not a good way to go. It has to be a well balanced reasoned and unbiased initiative and should be headed by a person of very good standing in this country, that people can trust, from all walks of life.

Do we have anybody suitable?

Subject: RE: Growth of Sharia Law Midlands UK
From: Royston
Date: 06 Jul 09 - 10:00 AM

Villan, re: how many courts, is there an increase

I should have been more clear. I don't know how many there are, I don't know if there is an increase. I can only set out what my knowledge is and what belief I hold as a result of that knowledge.

All Imam's will probably agree to mediate on an argument. That happens in every mosque every day, I suspect. Priests would mediate for their parishioners. I suspect we can all agree this is innocuous.

So what we are probably right to have concerns about are organised tribunals that are operating as quasi-courts and seeking to enforce rulings against the unwilling. This is not a growth industry, I know this from close involvement with the issues arising.

Such things are secretive (the organisers of them know they are on the wrong side of the law and the wrong side of society at large). I don't know how many and if I don't know then, sure as hell, Denis Maceion doesn't because he's hardly able to claim the trust of the community that one would need to have in order to get data and information.

The article quoted Maceoin

"Some are relatively small and putting an exact figure on them is difficult," he told the Sunday Mercury. "There is no transparency. They don't have to register at all."

And my point is that the article amounts to "RISING NUMBER OF SHARIAH COURTS" - discussion of rumours and examples of random website rantings, nothing to do with Birmingham - Author of report quoted as saying he has no idea how many courts there were / are - "BUT IT MUST BE TRUE" I'm endlessly amazed at what gets into print sometimes.

So my informed instinct tells me that there is not a growing problem and if there is then there are enough community checks and balances to nip it in the bud.

Denis Maceoin and Crapitas admit they have no idea what's going on and provide not a single piece of evidence or testimony to support an extraordinarty claim. Therefore they really can't be taken seriously, can they?

Subject: RE: Growth of Sharia Law Midlands UK
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 06 Jul 09 - 11:44 AM

"How do you know that there isn't the growth of Sharia Law in the Midlands?"

That's not the same as "Sharia Courts".

Sharia Law is not part of English law.

As for Civitas, I have given you a quote from their own website about what interests them. Kind of gives their game plan away.

Royston does not have "muslim views" since he is not a muslim and never has been.

Sharia courts have no power to render a legally binding judgment as to a matter of law.

There are no Catholic Courts as such.

There are still some residual Ecclesiastical courts, and within the last ten years they have rendered legally binding judgments on the ownership of valuable artefacts such as altar stones made by famous sculptors.

People may by agreement and in accordance with the Arbitration Acts agree to have disputes resolved by arbitrators and frequently the arbitrators are not required to give reasons so they coud be applying their own view of cuckoo law.

Likewise under the Building Acts there are many kangaroo courts called "adjudications" the decisions of which are legally binding and routinely rubberstamped without regard for justice by the Technology and Construction Court.

Subject: RE: Growth of Sharia Law Midlands UK
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)
Date: 06 Jul 09 - 12:17 PM

Richard, I understand it is a thread drift and perhaps not relevant, but I'm trying to understand potential implications *by comparison* to situations I am slightly more familiar with. I guess what I was wondering about, is to what degree a hypothetical Catholic court, might be able to legally implement restrictions on something like abortion (or even the pill) for a pregnant teenage girl, for example?

Subject: RE: Growth of Sharia Law Midlands UK
From: The Sandman
Date: 06 Jul 09 - 12:36 PM

it is relevant,because once religious courts,are allowed for any religion[whatever its slant],then it has to be extended to all religions,otherwise it is discriminatory.
that is why I oppose all religious courts

Subject: RE: Growth of Sharia Law Midlands UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 06 Jul 09 - 12:50 PM

Re CIVITAS, you quoted some of their interests.
They say this
Civitas is an independent think tank that seeks to deepen public understanding of the legal, institutional and moral framework that makes possible a free and democratic society.
Aims
Discover solutions to social problems.
Implement pioneering projects to demonstrate what can be accomplished.
Supply schools with teaching materials and guest speakers.
Support informed public debate and encourage consensus by:
Providing accurate factual information on today's social issues.
Publishing informed comment and analysis.
Bringing together leading protagonists in open discussion.

To me this does not say,"dismiss and reject everything they produce."
Give me another reason to do that please, apart from them not always agreeing with you.

Subject: RE: Growth of Sharia Law Midlands UK
From: Royston
Date: 06 Jul 09 - 01:59 PM

Keith,

They claim charity status on the grounds that they are a non-political, academic body.

Yes it's easy to quote what they claim, but there just isn't enough space in a little text box to refute it by copying all the titles and headline conclusions of their "work". Please spend half an hour on their website and particularly on their catalog. One relevant page is HERE

Whatever your own political persuasion, you can't possiby believe that a "fair and balanced, apolitical civil-society think-tank" could by some miracle of even-handedness manage to publish NOTHING that ISN'T supportive of a right-wing neo-conservative social agenda.

So, I maintain that they are polemicists and political campaigners. I think it is high time their claims to charity status were reviewed closely.

Subject: RE: Growth of Sharia Law Midlands UK
From: Stringsinger
Date: 06 Jul 09 - 04:25 PM

"All the religious texts of the abrahamic faiths preach tolerance and respect to all. It is some people that fail to live up to that and who take selective quotes from Torah, Qur'an and Bible to justify their own wrong-thinking."

It may be that many of the texts do preach this but very few religions really follow it.
Religious people always take selective quotes to support their views. Tolerance is only practiced up to a point. It runs out quickly when the religion is questioned for its validity.

The issue is this as I see it. Does Christian, Sharia, Judaic law, (fill in the blanks) supersede
secular law? If it does then we are all in big trouble.

Subject: RE: Growth of Sharia Law Midlands UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 06 Jul 09 - 05:21 PM

I do not know Royston, but their reports are taken seriously by everyone else.
I have not read their study on Sharia courts but I would bet that the evidence and data that they quote is sound.
Have you found any falsification of or ignoring of facts?
No one else has.
So what if they draw different conclusions from it all than you do.

I would have a lot more respect for you if you told me how they were wrong on this instead of just smearing them and vulgarising their acronym.
Can you do that?
No rush.

Subject: RE: Growth of Sharia Law Midlands UK
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 06 Jul 09 - 05:40 PM

Keith, look at the facts: every single area they treat as of concern is presented with a right-wing political spin.

There were, what, 7 topics on the list I gave you.

Les (charitably) assume that the odds are 50/50 on a "concern" having a right-wing slant on one topic.

Now raise 2 to the 7th power.

2, 4, 8, 16, 32, 64, 128.

That's one chance in 128 of there being no bias.

Anyone can do the sums.

Subject: RE: Growth of Sharia Law Midlands UK
From: Royston
Date: 06 Jul 09 - 06:33 PM

Keith,

but their reports are taken seriously by everyone else - by whom? Just because you like the sound of them, it does not mean that any intelligent person takes them seriously.

I have not read their study on Sharia courts... then piss off!

Have you found any falsification of or ignoring of facts? I have read the author's admission that he has no idea how many Sharia courts there are or might be in the future. I have also read the Civitas announcement HERE and amongst other ridiculous statements I have noted the following paragraph

Most reports on sharia courts cite five, working in London, Manchester, Bradford, Birmingham and Nuneaton. However, in his research for this report, Denis MacEoin has uncovered at least 85, operating largely out of mosques. It is extremely difficult to find out what goes on in these courts, so MacEoin reproduces a range of fatwas issued by popular online fatwa sites, run out of or accessed through mosques in the UK, and in some cases, as was revealed in the earlier Civitas report Music, Chess and Other Sins, even from UK Muslim schools. These online fatwas can give a good indication of the rulings of sharia courts in Britain.

Which supports totally my earlier accusation that Maceoin has no knowledge of the Muslim communities in this country and can't even be arsed to do any real research, so he just trawled a few random contentious websites to find a load of cranky so-called judgements to stick in his report and claim that this is what all Muslims think and do.

If the Civitas and Maceoin announcements bill this report as having no substance, no research and no effort, coupled with the rest of the claptrap they put out then the only thing you have said that makes you sound even slightly sensible is your admission that you haven't even bothered to read it.

If YOU want to assert something as having evidential value, it is for YOU to read and understand it and argue its relevance. Not to come here and claim that something you haven't read is relevant to a subject about which you know nothing.

I have given ample justification from the author's own words and from Crapitas' previous form to establish a prima facie case that this report is worthless.

Subject: RE: Growth of Sharia Law Midlands UK
From: Peace
Date: 06 Jul 09 - 06:40 PM

It discriminates against women. Shouldn't that be enough?

Subject: RE: Growth of Sharia Law Midlands UK
From: Peace
Date: 06 Jul 09 - 06:43 PM

Page worth reading.

Subject: RE: Growth of Sharia Law Midlands UK
From: Royston
Date: 06 Jul 09 - 07:01 PM

Peace, try to keep up, nobody on this page is advocating shariah courts are good things. The debate is about the fact that the recent report and other related scribblings are designed to whip up racist sentiments against British Muslims. If we consider that religious courts are bad things then we need also to look at other religious courts and not just persecute Muslims and Islam.

Subject: RE: Growth of Sharia Law Midlands UK
From: Sandy Mc Lean
Date: 06 Jul 09 - 09:17 PM

There has been past attempts in Canada to gain status for sharia law as well. Canada is tolerant but there are limits to what we will accept and this will not fly. I keep hearing about it treating women as equal but when the proof is in the pudding, it fails the taste test badly. When a wife is allowed to have four husbands under sharia law then I will accept that it treats females as equal. Until then it belongs in the trashpile of history!

Subject: RE: Growth of Sharia Law Midlands UK
From: Peace
Date: 07 Jul 09 - 01:59 AM

"Peace, try to keep up"

Royston: get stuffed ya prig. The point I was making is that fundamentally it is shit law. So are other 'religious' courts that rule on civil or criminal law. It's outside their authority and should never have been allowed to happen in England in the first place. Go patronize someone else, arsehole.

Subject: RE: Growth of Sharia Law Midlands UK
From: Peace
Date: 07 Jul 09 - 02:03 AM

PS: Royston, read the first fucking post. Pffft!

Subject: RE: Growth of Sharia Law Midlands UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 07 Jul 09 - 03:17 AM

Royston, I think that you accept that Sharia does not accord equal rights to men and women.
Also that there are a large number of Asian women including Muslims here, mostly brought here as brides, who have no contacts outside their ethnic community and no access to British support systems. They are not given the opportunity to learn English.
These are the women most disadvantaged by a Sharia court system here.
Do we agree so far?

A report was published today about immigrants and social housing.
Should we ignore all its findings because it was produced by a left wing think tank?
It is very easy to have strong political convictions if you never have to address the claims and arguments of the other side.
CIVITAS is right wing but it is not extremist. It is reputable, mainstream and authoritative. Its findings are taken on board by political parties and reported on by the mainstream media including liberal organs.

If you can't or won't counter their arguments then perhaps you should piss off.

Subject: RE: Growth of Sharia Law Midlands UK
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 07 Jul 09 - 03:18 AM

Now now, juicy Brucie...

Subject: RE: Growth of Sharia Law Midlands UK
From: Rasener
Date: 07 Jul 09 - 03:21 AM

Here we go again

Royston and Peace please stop flaming.

The main thing here is that it would appear that Sharia Courts are starting to infiltrate the Midlands and for me that is disturbing.

Royston cannot prove that point, but never the less, he, like most of us would like to see all forms of religious courts banned or allowed in the UK, and not just singling out one religion.

I personnally think he is right.

I would ban the lot.

Just a shame that he can't seem to put this over without upsetting people. He IMHO is making his points like a vicar, priest, cleric would be delivering a sermon, and telling us what we should beleive. It's that point I don't buy and yes that comes over in a patronising way.

Subject: RE: Growth of Sharia Law Midlands UK
From: Royston
Date: 07 Jul 09 - 04:01 AM

If some of you feel patronised, you need to look and what you say and do. Next example coming up.

Keith,

Also that there are a large number of Asian women including Muslims here, mostly brought here as brides, who have no contacts outside their ethnic community and no access to British support systems. They are not given the opportunity to learn English.

Everyone knows this exists in a number of communities. I know a lot about it. If you are going to assert that it is "large number" then you had better get some proof. Yours is the claim, you have to back it up.

The largest, I think the only national, outreach project for Asian Women is the Kiran Project. In 2007/8 they received 112 referrals from women with no access to public funds/services owing to an insecure immigration status. GO HERE

Now one person is on too many, but there is the context for you Keith. Hardly a "large" or terrifying number. There are asian-community groups out there searching daily for these unfortunate people.

A report was published today about immigrants and social housing.
Should we ignore all its findings because it was produced by a left wing think tank?

It wasn't published by a left wing think tank, Keith. It was published by the Equalities and Human Rights Commission, a statutory body. They compiled all records of social-housing allocation in the UK and found, with imperical data, that 2% of allocations were to 'immigrants'. It was not "opinion", it was researched, referenced, and authoritative. None of those terms apply to Maceion or Civitas.

Am I being polite enough for you, Keith?

I have provided evidence to refute every statement you have made, including, on the report, the words of the author. When are you going to listen and respond with something worthy of further discussion. That is is how a debate works isn't it?

Subject: RE: Growth of Sharia Law Midlands UK
From: Royston
Date: 07 Jul 09 - 04:22 AM

Villan, I don't want to upset you, but in spite of everything that has still gone on here, you say

The main thing here is that it would appear that Sharia Courts are starting to infiltrate the Midlands and for me that is disturbing.

Royston cannot prove that point

It is not for me to disprove somebody else's extraordinary claim. You cannot prove a negative.

I have been to the Civitas website and I have read the words of the author in the interview he gave to that paper, and I have carefully looked at the evidence claimed by both parties.

I have found, in their own words, that they do not know how many courts there were or how many there are, so they don't know if the number is increasing.

I have found that they say they have no knowledge about the issues or judgements being heard in these alleged courts so, in their own words, they trawled the internet looking at "online sharia websites" for quotes. Now I urge you to do the same. It is like an electronic speaker's corner. Rent-an-Imam. No authority, no accreditation. Hell, I could start one tomorrow - and that is probably about as rigorous as most of them get. They are what they are, but they don't tell us anything which is academically or evidentially reliable and they don't amount to "evidence" for a report on an important subject like this.

I have provided links to the supporting evidence for these conclusions. I just don't understand why people are so attached to their scary totems (Grrr, bad scary Muslims!) that they can't see what is going on in the press. It's like McCarthy era "Reds under the beds" nonsense.

Subject: RE: Growth of Sharia Law Midlands UK
From: Royston
Date: 07 Jul 09 - 04:34 AM

Peace,

I did read the first post.

1) Are shariah courts growing in the midlands
2) Is the report true or accurate
3) Is it a storm in a teacup.

Really, I didn't see any question and there has certainly been no subsequent arguments about whether shariah law is good/bad (in itself or to women)

The page you called up is another impartial look at the subject dressed up as academic, neutral fact. It sells the story of Amina Lawal, which people always dredge up to beat Muslims with. Now remembering that I, along with everyone else here, am not arguing Shariah law is good and not denying some barmy and immoral things result, it is still unhelpful to discourse and understanding that the lie is perpetrated that a Nigerian court stoned Amina Lawal to death.

It never happened. It is a lie. It is false. If you can google the page you did then you can also google the actual outcome for Amina who is alive and well and remarried.

Subject: RE: Growth of Sharia Law Midlands UK
From: Lox
Date: 07 Jul 09 - 04:48 AM

Villan,

I say you murdered JFK.

You say there is no evidence you did.

I say "prove you didn't!"




Why should you?



You say Sharia courts are spreading over the midlands.

Royston says there is no evidence of this.

You say "prove they aren't."




If they are spreading, there will be evidence.

If there is no evidence, then how do we know they are spreading?

Subject: RE: Growth of Sharia Law Midlands UK
From: GUEST,keith A
Date: 07 Jul 09 - 04:51 AM

Royston , today's report was based on figures from the 2007 Labour Force Survey and carried out by the centre-left Institute for Public Policy Research think tank.

Of course no one can give a figure for those Asian women but the numbers are sufficient for main channel TV docs to have been made about them so I know it is a significant number and you are just avoiding the issue.

Subject: RE: Growth of Sharia Law Midlands UK
From: Rasener
Date: 07 Jul 09 - 05:04 AM

Lox
Lets get back to the original question
Quote
I find this report rather disturbing (assuming the report is factual), especially as it is illegal and would appear to be growing out of control.

Does it concern other mudcatters, or is it a storm in a tea cup?
Unquote

Royston is adament that the people who have provided this information are biased and not to be trusted. Fine if thats we he believes. However, the question still remains "Do these Courts exist"

Royston I believe is trying to say that they don't, but doesn't have the evidence to support that. I would be very happy if he did have that evidence that they didn't exist and that it was purely scaremongering.

I am in no position to judge who is right or wrong. However, I cannot believe that the Sunday Mercury would print this information without checking the facts.

Les

Subject: RE: Growth of Sharia Law Midlands UK
From: Lox
Date: 07 Jul 09 - 05:05 AM

100

Subject: RE: Growth of Sharia Law Midlands UK
From: Rasener
Date: 07 Jul 09 - 05:05 AM

Further than that, I support the issue of banning all religious courts.

Subject: RE: Growth of Sharia Law Midlands UK
From: Rasener
Date: 07 Jul 09 - 05:06 AM

LOL Lox. I thought I would get the 100 :-)

Subject: RE: Growth of Sharia Law Midlands UK
From: Lox
Date: 07 Jul 09 - 05:10 AM

"I would be very happy if he did have that evidence that they didn't exist and that it was purely scaremongering."


Villan,

Please reread my last post.


If something exists then there will be evidence.


If someone claims that Sharia courts exist then it is up to provide evidence of their existence.


If you want evidence that Sharia courts don't exist, then I am equally entitled to evidence that pigs can't fly.


There's no evidence of Pigs flying and there's no evidence of the spread of Sharia courts in the midlands.


Please not that I have not expressed an opinion as to whether they are or not.

Subject: RE: Growth of Sharia Law Midlands UK
From: Rasener
Date: 07 Jul 09 - 06:12 AM

OK Rather than argue the toss about who to believe, I have in actual fact been in contact with the reporter of this article.

He has asked me to send an e-mail to him, expressing the concerns about the correctness of this article and the asking for evidence. He will respond back accordingly.

I am willing to work with any of you to construct an unbiased e-mail requesting further evidence to substantiate this report.

If you want to contribute, please keep your questions short and to the point. Please no accusations of biasedness or trying to stir up hatred etc. I am not sure if it might be better to PM me with your questions, to save any possible flaming.

I will give this a day and then send an e-mail, based on what I think are sensible questions submitted by you.

I will post his reply back on here.

Cheers
Les

Subject: RE: Growth of Sharia Law Midlands UK
From: TheSnail
Date: 07 Jul 09 - 06:22 AM

From the article -

Their rulings include statements condemning homosexuals to harsh beatings and ordering a wife to have sex with her husband "even if she is busy in the kitchen" at the time.

and then -

Decisions made by religious tribunals are legally binding and can be enforced in county courts and the high court if both parties have agreed to be ruled by sharia.

Er, really?

and later -

"The reality is that for many Muslims, sharia courts are in practice part of an institutionalised atmosphere of intimidation, backed by the ultimate sanction of a death threat."

British courts are enforcing death threats?

I feel the article lacks credibility.

Subject: RE: Growth of Sharia Law Midlands UK
From: Rasener
Date: 07 Jul 09 - 06:38 AM

So what would be your question to teh reporter in less than 40 words please Snail.

Subject: RE: Growth of Sharia Law Midlands UK
From: Royston
Date: 07 Jul 09 - 06:50 AM

Les,

The simplest question to put would be something like;

"I am interested to understand more clearly if the claims in the article are the findings of independent journalistic investigation of actual Sharia courts in the West Midlands by employees of the Sunday Mercury, or whether the subject of the story is simply the existence of the Civitas report, extracts of its findings and quotes by its author.

I not suggesting that one is less valid than another as news-item, I simply seek a clearer understanding of the source of the statements and the methodology of the investigation"

Subject: RE: Growth of Sharia Law Midlands UK
From: Rasener
Date: 07 Jul 09 - 07:03 AM

Ok I will include that Royston. Seems a fair enough question.

I personally would like to know if these 22 Sharia Courts can be proven to be in existance.

Subject: RE: Growth of Sharia Law Midlands UK
From: Royston
Date: 07 Jul 09 - 07:43 AM

Keith,

Royston , today's report was based on figures from the 2007 Labour Force Survey and carried out by the centre-left Institute for Public Policy Research think tank

It was an EHRC report. EHRC commissioned some data from he IPPR.

The IPPR stated their soures which included a review of the actual housing allocation data in 50 UK authorities and the 2007 Labour Force Survey - amongst other sources.

The Labour Force Survey is commissioned by HM Government from the Economic and Social Data Service, which is a group of academic statisticians providing raw data to governments (not just our own) and to business or other interests. Their academic credentials are quite impeccable

http://www.esds.ac.uk/

Whereas the Civitas own publicity and info said they have no numbers, no data, no knowledge of what is happening in the alleged shariah courts. I have already provided the links to this material.

"Of course no one can give a figure for those Asian women but the numbers are sufficient for main channel TV docs to have been made about them so I know it is a significant number and you are just avoiding the issue"

Keith, what are you saying? "No-one can give a figure...I know it is significant" how, because you watched a documentary? That didn't give a figure? One poor, abused person is one too many and would be worthy of a TV program but it does not mean that you 'know' anything.

There are figures; I went and brought back the actual figures reported by the principle organisation dealing with these cases. There really is no point discussing with you any further.

Subject: RE: Growth of Sharia Law Midlands UK
From: GUEST,keith A
Date: 07 Jul 09 - 08:01 AM

Royston, no point discussing with me, so take this up with BBC.
" Commission's report - based on figures from the 2007 Labour Force Survey - was carried out by the centre-left Institute for Public Policy Research think tank. "http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/8137408.stm


When I said no one can give a figure that was literally true. The site you linked to suggests they are a significant group and it says it is a growing one.
I am not a political activist but am a critical user of various media. That is how I know that this is a real issue. Do you deny that it is?

Subject: RE: Growth of Sharia Law Midlands UK
From: Royston
Date: 07 Jul 09 - 08:04 AM

Les,

This is not to pre-empt the dialogue you have with the Sunday Mercury, but to run alongside it we should talk about the ways in which newspapers get around the need for any actual journalism. Every day, fewer and fewer staff-writers have to fill copy. Everybody with an organised opinion is prepared to provide that copy in the form of a Press Releases. I can do it, you can do it, anyone can do it. It's really scary.

So, I run a website about flying pigs. I issue a press release about an increase in the incidence of flying pigs over Wednesbury and fax or email it to the local paper.

The local paper need copy, so they run my story, wot I wrote, and all my opinions and comments. They might even ring me for some additional quotes, which I am only too happy to provide. Then the story goes into the paper;

MENACE OF LOW FLYING SWINE OVER WEDNESBURY

According to a report issued today by the Avian Swine Monitoring Service, the good citizens of Wednesbury were at risk from collision with hazardous arial Gloucester old spots. The report details how dangerous the streets have become with examples being

[report-extract 1]
[report-extract 2]

The report's author said "[whatever old bit of nonsense I fancy]"

The critical part is "According to a report..." which means the paper need to do no checking, no journalism, they have correctly reported the existence and findings of the report and in so doing they invite their gullible readers to take it or leave it.

Other great disclaimers are things like "...are the shock findings of a report" or "...according to research published today by [someone else]"

You rarely read "Are the conclusions of our investigative reporter after three weeks of painstaking research and interviews of witnesses"

This is how the press work, you see it every day in all newspapers. It is deeply sinister and we must be eternally vigilant for it. This is exactly how people get conditioned into thinking that they know things which are actually untrue or inaccurate.

If you study the Sunday Mercury article carefully then you really will see how they worked these tricks into their text. If anyone really can't see it then let me know, I will give my detailed analysis but I desperately want people to try this for themselves with an open mind - and I have to go do some work now!

Subject: RE: Growth of Sharia Law Midlands UK
From: Royston
Date: 07 Jul 09 - 08:10 AM

Keith,

I agreed with you about the data. I showed you where the IPPR got it from. It is authoritative data with properly identified sources. What is your point?

I have maintained from the outset that shariah courts are a live, contentious issue and of course that abuse of women is a live and terrible issue. But I insist that proper factual perspective be maintained because there are too many people using and inflating these real issues to whip up even more dangerous emotion and fear and divisivenes of and towards innocent sections of the community of our Great British Nation!

Subject: RE: Growth of Sharia Law Midlands UK
From: TheSnail
Date: 07 Jul 09 - 08:20 AM

Les, how about -

"What effort did you make to achieve balance by contacting leaders of the Muslim community, the police, for the allegations of illegallity, or the courts and the appropriate government department for the relationship to British law?"

I will ask you the same question. What research did you do before posting the link to that article?

Here are a couple of links to be going on with -

http://www.matribunal.com/
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/lawreports/joshuarozenberg/2957692/What-can-sharia-courts-do-in-Britain.html

Subject: RE: Growth of Sharia Law Midlands UK
From: Rasener
Date: 07 Jul 09 - 08:30 AM

I will include that Snail.

All I did was to post this
Quote
I find this report rather disturbing (assuming the report is factual), especially as it is illegal and would appear to be growing out of control.

http://www.sundaymercury.net/news/midlands-news/2009/07/05/islamic-sharia-law-courts-operating-in-west-midlands-66331-24075255/

Does it concern other mudcatters, or is it a storm in a tea cup?
Unquote
Through this thread,I am learning more about the situation and hopefully given time, will get to the truth or not. I didn't write the article.

Subject: RE: Growth of Sharia Law Midlands UK
From: Royston
Date: 07 Jul 09 - 08:33 AM

TheSnail

Thanks for finding those references, but Keith probably thinks "The Telegraph" and Josua Rozenberg are a hot-bed of Islamic fundamentalist apologists.

Subject: RE: Growth of Sharia Law Midlands UK
From: GUEST,Keith A
Date: 07 Jul 09 - 08:42 AM

Nice one Royston.
Thanks.

Re your earlier criticism of my post,from today's Guardian,"A study for the Equality and Human Rights Commission .....The study, based on previously published figures from the 2007 Labour Force Survey, was conducted by the centre-left Institute for Public Policy Research (IPPR) thinktank.

So, was I right on that one after all?
Do I get an appology?

Subject: RE: Growth of Sharia Law Midlands UK
From: Royston
Date: 07 Jul 09 - 08:56 AM

No Keith, you are digging yourself ever deeper.

The report was written and published by the EHRC

The IPPR were commissioned to provide statistical research for the EHRC report.

The IPPR used, in part, the Labour Force Survey 2007

The Labour force survey is commissioned by HM Government from the ESDS.

The IPPR did not publish or produce the report, as you claim. None of the data in the report was generated by the IPPR, it came from local authorities and from the ESDS.

Subject: RE: Growth of Sharia Law Midlands UK
From: GUEST,keith A
Date: 07 Jul 09 - 09:17 AM

I claim nothing Royston, I quote
BBC "carried out by centre-left..." and Guardian "conducted by centre-left..."
I only make an issue because you picked it out as an example of my ignorance to justify your patronising, snide remarks.

Subject: RE: Growth of Sharia Law Midlands UK
From: GUEST,keith Again
Date: 07 Jul 09 - 09:23 AM

Guardian link http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/2009/jul/07/social-housing-immigration-bnp
BBC link given already

Subject: RE: Growth of Sharia Law Midlands UK
From: Royston
Date: 07 Jul 09 - 09:38 AM

At no point did I say you it was wrong to state that the IPPR were involved.

The report is commissioned and published by the EHRC, they are not a think tank.

I have clarified exactly how the IPPR were involved.

The data in the report is sound and the independent generating sources are referenced for your, and anyone else's review.

You are wrong to say or imply the IPPR generated or created any of the data.

I keep asking you "what is your point", I intend to stop now.

Subject: RE: Growth of Sharia Law Midlands UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 07 Jul 09 - 10:03 AM

As you say Royston, EHRC commissioned it, paid for it, and published it. But, as I said in my original post ,THE REPORT WAS CARRIED OUT BY A LEFT WING THINK TANK.
So what was the point of picking me up on it, and keep arguing in all these posts that I had got it wrong?
You run a real risk of having Richard tell you that you are outclassed.

Subject: RE: Growth of Sharia Law Midlands UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 07 Jul 09 - 10:06 AM

"You are wrong to say or imply the IPPR generated or created any of the data."
They generated and created THE WHOLE REPORT using previously published data.
So who was wrong?

Subject: RE: Growth of Sharia Law Midlands UK
From: TheSnail
Date: 07 Jul 09 - 10:09 AM

Les, YOU said "I find this report rather disturbing (assuming the report is factual), especially as it is illegal and would appear to be growing out of control." and later, "I cannot believe that the Sunday Mercury would print this information without checking the facts.".

Are you seriously telling me that you believe that British courts are enforcing decisions by Sharia courts that are illegal under British law? Did it really not occur to you to check the facts before starting this thread?

Subject: RE: Growth of Sharia Law Midlands UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 07 Jul 09 - 10:12 AM

You are wrong to say or imply the EHRC generated , created OR "COMPILED" any of the data.
Weren't you Royston?

Subject: RE: Growth of Sharia Law Midlands UK
From: Royston
Date: 07 Jul 09 - 10:25 AM

Well done Keith, you may have found one part of an argument nothing to do with the topic at hand, that was incorrect. I was wrong to say the EHRC compiled the data, they had the IPPR compile the data. If you spent half as much time on your own posts and thoughts and stayed on topic then we might be more productive.

Now what is your point?

I think you are still trying to imply that because the Civitas rubbish is nonsensed because THE AUTHOR says he has no data and no supporting information, that the EHRC report should be rubbished because a lot of referenced and independent external data used in the report was compiled by a think tank?

If that is what you are imlying or thinking then you are still wrong.

Do you actually have anything to say about your earlier substantiive points and the evidence against them? Or anything new that is actually related to the topic?

Subject: RE: Growth of Sharia Law Midlands UK
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 07 Jul 09 - 10:51 AM

Actually, there is a linguistic point here. Keith originally spoke of a "report" being "produced by". 07/07/2009:0317.

Then he said the "report" was "carried out by". 07/07/2009:1451.


In the sense of a conjurer producing a rabbit from a hat, it was of course the EHRC that "produced" the report. They may or may not have done the underlying work, but it was they who revealed the final paper.


I do not find it felicitious to speak of a report being "carried out", but if the words mean anything they surely refer to the act of delivery of the item. That, too, was the act of the EHRC.



But the real distinction is that, as Royston says, the report reflected and published (indeed re-published), establishable and reviewable data. That is not what the Mercury piece did. It is not what the Civitas piece did.

Subject: RE: Growth of Sharia Law Midlands UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 07 Jul 09 - 11:08 AM

I only mentioned that report to illustrate my point that reports should not be dismissed just because of who produced them.
You thought I had got it wrong and used my supposed error to justify you patronisation.
In the briefest of posts I corrected you, but you went right back into the attack.
I accept no responsibility for the ensuing, pointless digression.
My original statement was completely accurate, and you were wrong to use it to ridicule me.
Now let us move on.

Subject: RE: Growth of Sharia Law Midlands UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 07 Jul 09 - 11:20 AM

Finally, IPPR did not just "compile the data", they WROTE THE REPORT.

Subject: RE: Growth of Sharia Law Midlands UK
From: Royston
Date: 07 Jul 09 - 02:27 PM

Keith, alright I accept that I've over-egged the pudding [again?] so I properly deserve to take a few brickbats over the IPPR barney, if nothing else. I'm just extremely passionate about this stuff - press minsinformation, making divisions, racist scare-mongering and need sometimes to back off and do some deep-breathing exercises, probably. I have always been impatient and I know this is not a great quality.

So I am sorry to you and others for my tone, but not for any of the substance of what we've been batting to and fro. I am really interested in seeing what Les gets back from the Mercury and I would really like people to take on board, if nothing else, what I explained about "Reports" and press misinformation - apply the tests to any newspaper whether rag or broadsheet and you might be very surprised at how low the standards are.

Subject: RE: Growth of Sharia Law Midlands UK
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 07 Jul 09 - 02:37 PM

But they did not publish it.

Subject: RE: Growth of Sharia Law Midlands UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 07 Jul 09 - 05:54 PM

Thanks for that Royston.
I have been known to go over the top too.
I shall also be interested in the journalist's response, if it comes.
keith.

Richard, shut up mate.

Subject: RE: Growth of Sharia Law Midlands UK
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 07 Jul 09 - 07:25 PM

Words are my thing. I'm not sure I like the familiarity.

Subject: RE: Growth of Sharia Law Midlands UK
From: Rasener
Date: 08 Jul 09 - 05:47 AM

OK I have sent my e-mail off and incorporated your suggestions.

I hope I get a reponse and good answers to my e-mail.

Subject: RE: Growth of Sharia Law Midlands UK
From: Rasener
Date: 08 Jul 09 - 07:48 AM

This was my e-mail

Ben
I have read your report about the above subject. I phoned you a couple of days ago about it, but you requested that I send you an e-mail and that you would respond to that.

My questions are :-

1. How sure are you that there are indeed 22 Sharia Law Courts in the Midlands. Is that information freely available?

2.. What effort did you make to achieve balance by contacting leaders of the Muslim community, the police, for the allegations of illegality, or the courts and the appropriate government department for the relationship to British law?

3. I am interested to understand more clearly if the claims in the article are the findings of independent journalistic investigation of actual Sharia courts in the West Midlands by employees of the Sunday Mercury, or whether the subject of the story is simply the existence of the Civitas report, extracts of its findings and quotes by its author.

I am not suggesting that one is less valid than another as news-item, I simply seek a clearer understanding of the source of the statements and the methodology of the investigation.

It concerns me greatly if, as your report says, that these courts are on the increase and if the information is correct, then it is time to start lobbying our MP's to get these courts stopped.

I would appreciate very much your honesty about my questions, as I want to know the truth.

Many thanks and I look forward to receiving your comments.

Yours sincerely
Les Worrall

and this is his reply.

Les,

We are always happy to hear from readers regarding articles that appear in the Sunday Mercury, so I would like to thank you for taking an interest.

In answer to your first question I will refer you back to the piece that appeared on Sunday. There is a map provided on Page 4 giving details of the sharia courts in the Midlands. The information is freely available now, as we have put it in the public domain.

In answer to your second question again I refer you to the article, and more specifically the panel entitled "What is Sharia?" There you will see a full explanation of Islamic law, including quotes from a leading figure in the practice of sharia law in the UK.

As to the methods and practices of obtaining stories, I am not going to discuss these. As I'm sure you are aware journalists deal with a number of confidential sources and use various methods to obtain information.

If you wish to lobby your MP using any of the information provided in the article then please feel free to do so.

All the best

Ben Goldby
Sunday Mercury

Subject: RE: Growth of Sharia Law Midlands UK
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 08 Jul 09 - 08:19 AM

Oh dear, that reply does not look well in print.

Subject: RE: Growth of Sharia Law Midlands UK
From: Rasener
Date: 08 Jul 09 - 08:47 AM

I suppose you could read into it what you want, Richard, but at least he replied.

The e-mails are a true copy and paste onto here.

I am now going to back out of here as I don't see it going anywhere.

I will still keep an interest in what information developes from the papers and if there is a chance to lobby or sign a petition to ban all religious Law Courts, I will do.

Try to stay away from flaming please.

Subject: RE: Growth of Sharia Law Midlands UK
From: TheSnail
Date: 08 Jul 09 - 08:48 AM

Can't say that I feel that my question (No.2) has been answered.

Subject: RE: Growth of Sharia Law Midlands UK
From: Rasener
Date: 08 Jul 09 - 09:23 AM

Here is the guys e-mail address. By all means follow up on the 2 e-mails above.

[e-mail]

Subject: RE: Growth of Sharia Law Midlands UK
From: TheSnail
Date: 08 Jul 09 - 10:01 AM

I think Ben Goldby has made it pretty clear that he has no intention of answering the questions. The trouble, Les, neither have you so I'll ask again -

"Are you seriously telling me that you believe that British courts are enforcing decisions by Sharia courts that are illegal under British law? Did it really not occur to you to check the facts before starting this thread?"

Subject: RE: Growth of Sharia Law Midlands UK
From: Rasener
Date: 08 Jul 09 - 10:28 AM

And I will repeat my original post

I find this report rather disturbing (assuming the report is factual), especially as it is illegal and would appear to be growing out of control.
Does it concern other mudcatters, or is it a storm in a tea cup?

I have mentioned "assuming the report is factual"

I think it looks pretty clear that I am looking for advice.

Their deosn't seem a way of getting to the real truth, so don't know what else I can do.

End of story for me, so carry on if you will.

Subject: RE: Growth of Sharia Law Midlands UK
From: Royston
Date: 08 Jul 09 - 10:49 AM

I think we can conclude then that the newspaper contains no independently checked and verified facts. If you print it and then put the Civitas press release next to it, you can see that it's all just copy/paste.

The one thing we can agree on, it seems, is that the Mercury have taken nobody any closer to the truth, and that is indeed a valuable lesson about British print-media.

Subject: RE: Growth of Sharia Law Midlands UK
From: TheSnail
Date: 08 Jul 09 - 10:53 AM

The Villan

I think it looks pretty clear that I am looking for advice.

Their deosn't seem a way of getting to the real truth, so don't know what else I can do.

You could, as I have suggested, do a little more research into the facts instead of relying on this one piece of shoddy journalism. Here's a few links to be going on with. (Sorry, too many to make into blue clickies. You'll have to cut and paste.)

http://www.matribunal.com/
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/lawreports/joshuarozenberg/2957692/What-can-sharia-courts-do-in-Britain.html
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1055764/Islamic-sharia-courts-Britain-legally-binding.html
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/religion/5675166/At-least-85-sharia-courts-operating-in-Britain-says-Civitas-report.html
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/uk/crime/article4749183.ece
http://www.islamic-sharia.org/
http://shariahcouncil.org/Home.htm
http://www.daruliftaa.com/
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1196165/Britain-85-sharia-courts-The-astonishing-spread-Islamic-justice-closed-doors.html
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/7238890.stm
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/the-big-question-how-do-britains-sharia-courts-work-and-are-they-a-good-thing-1724486.html
http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2009/jun/29/sharia-courts-illegal-advice-claims

Subject: RE: Growth of Sharia Law Midlands UK
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 08 Jul 09 - 11:36 AM

Regrettably, Villan, the guy has given you two fingers.

Subject: RE: Growth of Sharia Law Midlands UK
From: Rasener
Date: 08 Jul 09 - 11:53 AM

Looks like it. Not much I can do about that. At least I got in touch.

Anyway, I have sent him the link to this thread. Maybe he has the guts to come on here and defend himself.

Subject: RE: Growth of Sharia Law Midlands UK
From: Rasener
Date: 09 Jul 09 - 11:30 AM

Refresh, just in case The Sunday Mercury want to comment.

Subject: RE: Growth of Sharia Law Midlands UK
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 09 Jul 09 - 11:57 AM

Don't hold your breath Les.
The one thing you can absolutely guarantee any newspaper never to let you down on is that they don't ever allow the truth to get in the way of a 'story'.
That's why I never read the f***in' things.
But, like you (and I'd guess a very great many others), I'm also concerned - if these poorly-substantiated allegations prove to be true (and at the moment it's a very big 'if').

Subject: RE: Growth of Sharia Law Midlands UK
From: Rasener
Date: 09 Jul 09 - 01:36 PM

LOL I look at THe Sunday Mercury to get up to date about Aston Villa, John :-) Then I saw this article and thought bloody hell my beloved Birmingham, they can't do that.

Subject: RE: Growth of Sharia Law Midlands UK
From: TheSnail
Date: 09 Jul 09 - 02:27 PM

How are you doing following up the links I gave you, Les?

Subject: RE: Growth of Sharia Law Midlands UK
From: Rasener
Date: 09 Jul 09 - 02:44 PM

Snail
I am not.

If its true, I am sure somebody will do something about it.

If not, it doesn't matter anyway.

Still would like further clarification from The Sunday Mercury.

Until then .....

Subject: RE: Growth of Sharia Law Midlands UK
From: Rifleman (inactive)
Date: 09 Jul 09 - 03:49 PM

"and is carefully crafted to wind up reactions in reactionary people"

apparently it's worked *LOL* quite the reaction.

Subject: RE: Growth of Sharia Law Midlands UK
From: GUEST,lox
Date: 09 Jul 09 - 07:45 PM

It's easy to judge ...

Subject: RE: Growth of Sharia Law Midlands UK
From: Wolfgang
Date: 10 Jul 09 - 01:05 PM

Off topic nitpicking. Sorry, but this sentence is too often said or written without thinking and I have come to dislike its use:

you cannot prove a negative (Royston)

As a general statement this is simply wrong. Mathematics is full of proving negatives. The recent proof of Fermat's conjecture by a British mathematician was of course a proof of a negative. Each proof that a number is a prime number is a proof of a negative ("There is no integer except 1 and 22039 itself diveded by which 22039...").
Outside of mathematics this statement has often been discussed in philosophy with regard to the relative size of an element and the search space ("There is no (eleph)ant in my bath room").
There are many contexts in which the statement is correct but the person using that statement should say why they think it can be applied in a particular context.

Since the Midlands are a finite search space the first guess is that in this context the statement cannot be applied.

Stepping down from the soapbox, and on topic, I tend to agree with Richard Bridge's posts. But I know too little about the topic to do more than reading.

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: Growth of Sharia Law Midlands UK
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 10 Jul 09 - 01:08 PM

Surely "proof" of prime number status is not a proof but a verification,isn't it?

Subject: RE: Growth of Sharia Law Midlands UK
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 10 Jul 09 - 01:44 PM

Dunno. Maybe a Sharia court could make a binding judgment?   :-) :-)

Subject: RE: Growth of Sharia Law Midlands UK
From: GUEST,lox
Date: 10 Jul 09 - 02:01 PM

The substance of Roystons point is not wrong, but in the interests of absolute accuracy he could have described what he meant in different words.

I don't think he intended to argue specifically that one cannot prove a negative.

That assertion in isolation would have no bearing on the subject of the thread.

I think the context is given by the thread title and by the post to which he was responding.

His point, clearly in my view, is that if you claim that something is true, the onus is not on somebody else to prove that your claim is wrong, but on the person making the claim to give evidence to show why they have made that claim.

In this context, a newspaper claims that Sharia courts are growing in number.

How has it arrived at this conclusion? what evidence has it seen to inspire such a claim?

to expect the person asking to see this evidence to provide their own evidence that the claim is untrue is preposterous. No evidence = no basis for claim.

Subject: RE: Growth of Sharia Law Midlands UK
From: Stringsinger
Date: 10 Jul 09 - 02:36 PM

The problem is that by its very definition, Sharia law purports to trump secular law.
This is theocracy at its most insistent. That in itself is enough evidence.

Subject: RE: Growth of Sharia Law Midlands UK
From: meself
Date: 10 Jul 09 - 03:12 PM

That may be evidence enough to launch a personal jihad against Moslems - but how is it evidence that the number of Sharia law courts is on the increase in a certain area?

Subject: RE: Growth of Sharia Law Midlands UK
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 10 Jul 09 - 06:32 PM

Where is that definition you cite, Stringsinger, and how does it differ from catholicism?