Does Folk Exist?

Subject: RE: Does Folk Exist?
From: Spleen Cringe
Date: 18 Jul 09 - 05:47 PM

Gluey, is this the time to disclose (if we're becoming confessional, which I think maybe we are...) that on the death of my mother, bless her, I inherited a small collection of toby jugs?

Sub-genre ahoy!

If tankards are folkie-stylee folk, WTF are toby jugs?

Subject: RE: Does Folk Exist?
From: Spleen Cringe
Date: 18 Jul 09 - 05:43 PM

Fuck, Crowsis, that last one is a crime against tankards! I WANT a Bullseye tankard though, if only to store Blue Peter badges in.

And I'll take your Desperate Dan and raise you this one.

This, though, is truly disturbing...

Subject: RE: Does Folk Exist?
From: glueman
Date: 18 Jul 09 - 05:41 PM

There's something wrong with tankards and if I knew what it was I'd crack this whole folk conundrum. It's a mix of aesthetics (or lack of them), unfitness for purpose relative to other vessels, ornament for its own sake and a certain overblownness, the kind of thing a wicked king in an illustrated children's tale would drink from. Also deeply personal in an unhealthy way - 'can I have My Tankard please landlord', the one with the engraving of the Raft of the Medusa, the cannons on the base, my name and professional qualifications, the sealed photograph of my dog and the Dresden lid.

I could become hypertensive just thinking about it, so won't.

Subject: RE: Does Folk Exist?
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)
Date: 18 Jul 09 - 05:22 PM

Core, check out the uber rustic Folkie-Quotient on that last baby! Respec'!

Kewel....
Take a look at what you could've won!
Ahhhh
Potentially dangerous....

Subject: RE: Does Folk Exist?
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 18 Jul 09 - 05:19 PM

"But not lost for capital letters or exclamation marks apparently."

I see that you're exercising that finely honed talent for evasion again, 'glueman'.

Just look on my punctuation marks and typographical flourishes as being the equivalent of Mediterranean style hand waving. Don't tell me ... you're prejudiced against Greeks and Italians - especially if they wear tankards on their hats?

So, anyway, what would be your response to the following (sans capital letters and exclamation marks):

I'm confused, 'glueman'. I point out inconsistencies in your 'arguments' (ravings?) and you accuse me of being a hypocrite.

No doubt you're going to tell me that I'm not 'broad-minded' enough to accept your point of view. But you don't seem to be for anything in particular. You just appear to be against introductions to songs and people (you've imagined) who have tankards hanging from their hats. Now, I thought that I was fairly broad-minded ... but ... well ... I'm lost for words.

Subject: RE: Does Folk Exist?
From: Spleen Cringe
Date: 18 Jul 09 - 04:15 PM

I like the look of this.

Or this.

This, on the other hand, just scares me.

And this is deeply sexy. I'm being serious now.

Subject: RE: Does Folk Exist?
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 18 Jul 09 - 03:58 PM

You know, I started a thread on this very subject last year:

Folklore: Pewter Tankards

Subject: RE: Does Folk Exist?
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)
Date: 18 Jul 09 - 03:37 PM

I've realised to be a proper folkie, I need a tankard, but Oh... which one is really 'me'?

Scary....!

Gggggggrrrrrrrrrrr

Sparkley

Satanic Goat

I think my fave is King Kong, but the gold one might go well with my mudy boots?

Subject: RE: Does Folk Exist?
From: glueman
Date: 18 Jul 09 - 03:18 PM

Let it all out Jimbo.

Subject: RE: Does Folk Exist?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 18 Jul 09 - 03:14 PM

"who gives a shit?"
You do apparently (and fair play to you), judging by the time you spend debating
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Does Folk Exist?
From: glueman
Date: 18 Jul 09 - 02:34 PM

But not lost for capital letters or exclamation marks apparently.

Subject: RE: Does Folk Exist?
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 18 Jul 09 - 02:18 PM

"Good to see hypocrisy alive and well in The Tradition."

I'm confused, 'glueman'. I point out inconsistencies in your 'arguments' (ravings?) and you accuse ME of being a hypocrite!?

No doubt you're going to tell me that I'm not 'broad-minded' enough to accept your point of view. But you don't seem to be FOR anything in particular. You just appear to be AGAINST introductions to songs and people (you've imagined) who have tankards hanging from their hats. Now, I thought that I was fairly broad-minded ... but ... well ... I'm lost for words!

Subject: RE: Does Folk Exist?
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 18 Jul 09 - 01:48 PM

Meanwhile, back in real world (as far as Blackpool is real) we're enjoying the sunshine, the breeze, the 99p offer at Subway on Bispham Road, and chilling with some seriously 1954 / ICTM Traditional Music in the bandstand in Stanley Park.

Saturday 18th July 2009

Does Folk exist? When the music is happening, kicking off and making people smile - who gives a shit?

Subject: RE: Does Folk Exist?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 18 Jul 09 - 11:11 AM

"Good to see hypocrisy alive and well in The Tradition."
Don't suppose you'd care to explain - oh - forgot, you don't go there
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Does Folk Exist?
From: glueman
Date: 18 Jul 09 - 09:43 AM

"I like discussions without the snide slogans - but each to his own."

"The man who appears to be the champion...of "know-nothing-ism"!

Good to see hypocrisy alive and well in The Tradition.

Subject: RE: Does Folk Exist?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 18 Jul 09 - 09:20 AM

"No fingers, see."
I like discussions without the snide slogans - but each to his own.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Does Folk Exist?
From: GUEST,Jack Campin (in Budapest)
Date: 18 Jul 09 - 08:38 AM

I'm on my way to this:
Gyimes dance festival, Transylvania

to learn the koboz and some local dances. Anonymous paranoids are welcome to look through the photo gallery for hidden tankards. Might keep them more usefully occupied than posting here.

Subject: RE: Does Folk Exist?
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 18 Jul 09 - 08:28 AM

"Problem is some people haven't got the mental flexibility to accommodate people like myself (and others) who like the thing while seeing the flaws and contradictions running through it, ... "

This from a man who thinks that, "citing sources [is] an extraordinary thing to do"! The man who appears to be the champion (to borrow Brian Peters's apt phrase)of "know-nothing-ism"!

Subject: RE: Does Folk Exist?
From: glueman
Date: 18 Jul 09 - 07:49 AM

BTW I like Morris dancing. To watch, preferably with a beer but only traditional. Not fussed about cyber morris, black face and what-not. Flowery hats and hankies and I'm your man, I record the stuff. And folk music though it's much better as sound without visuals. No fingers, see.

Problem is some people haven't got the mental flexibility to accommodate people like myself (and others) who like the thing while seeing the flaws and contradictions running through it, can get it out its box and put it away again, doesn't inform our 'lifestyle choices', those who wonder where the joins are.
It would be better with a broader demographic, people coming in challenging things, bringing different perspectives. That's all to the good in my book and I've no quarrel with those who see it through similar glasses. No time for the so-it's-pop-you-like argument, complete red herring. I like trad without the sourpuss nonsense.

Subject: RE: Does Folk Exist?
From: glueman
Date: 18 Jul 09 - 07:35 AM

No, just stop treating it as life and death. Live and let live, each to his own, etc, etc.

Subject: RE: Does Folk Exist?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 18 Jul 09 - 07:22 AM

"I'll probably be the only grizzled, beardy, middle-aged man there but will just have to live with it. "
Glueman
The problem with relying on superficialities such as dress code and image to back up your non-arguments is that you constantly have to keep looking over your shoulder to make sure that there are none of your own lurking there - rather like the Dylan/Zimmerman fans who constantly snipe at the (now 20 year dead) MacColl for changing his name.
Am I misremembering the leather capped and windcheatered monosyllabic Dylan wannabes who infested the folk scene, mumbling their way through 'Blowin' In The Wind' in a strange Mid-Atlantic accent? Or the tattooed, body-pierced and bike-gear clad mobs who piled into the heavy metal concerts. Or the pudding-basin haircuts, collarless jackets I used to see at the Beatles concerts.
I won't even start on the Union-Jack-bowler-hatted Hooray Henrys who will be giving their all for the British Empire and urging that its 'Bounds' to be 'Set wider' next week-end.
I'm old enough to remember the Bill Haley ' quiffs, drape jackets and brothel-creeper' phase that many of my contemporaries went through. And as for all those embarrassing Elvis lookalike conventions.... oh dear!
Of course, this sort of thing isn't confined to music - you should take a trip to Dublin on 16th June (Bloomsday).
Personally, I've never understood the 'uniform' thing, (I'm sure you'd be one of the first to scream "sartorial police" if one of us took your line) but I've been around long enough to realise it has absolutely nothing whatever to do with the music, as I'm sure you do – and really wouldn't bother if you weren't intent on scoring points.
Don't get me wrong; I fully understand how your failure to make your point otherwise is much in need of a bit of superficial padding - but do you really have to sound like one of those News Quiz know-nothings who go for the cheap laughs by taking a pop at 'Morris dancers' or 'groany old folksingers with their fingers in their ears ' (whoops, sorry – one of your favourite phrases I guess.
"Lighten up."
Don't you mean 'superficialise up?'
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Does Folk Exist?
From: glueman
Date: 18 Jul 09 - 06:45 AM

Lighten up.

Subject: RE: Does Folk Exist?
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 18 Jul 09 - 05:56 AM

"Unfortunately we've reached the stage where the abominable no-men either can't or won't see the important points and have reduced another thread to mush."

I think you'll find that it was "mush" to start with! A thin gruel of myths, fantasies and stereotypes.

Subject: RE: Does Folk Exist?
From: glueman
Date: 18 Jul 09 - 04:45 AM

Like, 'everything I don't approve of is pop' I suppose. Unfortunately we've reached the stage where the abominable no-men either can't or won't see the important points and have reduced another thread to mush.

I shall attend a couple of folk clubs soon and report back. I expect to find clean shaven metrosexuals under 40 with an open mind about home-grown music. I'll probably be the only grizzled, beardy, middle-aged man there but will just have to live with it.

Subject: RE: Does Folk Exist?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 18 Jul 09 - 03:53 AM

"miserable beardy old blokes in leather hats with pewter tankards kept telling everyone they were wrong?"
Isn't it so much easier to work with stereotypes rather than facts?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Does Folk Exist?
From: glueman
Date: 17 Jul 09 - 04:39 PM

"what about bearded women,are they all miserable too"

Only the pipe smokers.

Subject: RE: Does Folk Exist?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 17 Jul 09 - 04:07 PM

"Just a thought."
Not really a particularly informed one - it was pretty well documented in the folk press under the heading 'Crap Begets Crap'.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Does Folk Exist?
From: The Sandman
Date: 17 Jul 09 - 04:00 PM

glueman,whats all this about pipes,it is illegal to smoke inside pubs,in the uk.
you are a beardist,generalising about bearded people,what about bearded women,are they all miserable too.

Subject: RE: Does Folk Exist?
From: glueman
Date: 17 Jul 09 - 03:50 PM

Perhaps folk clubs emptied because miserable beardy old blokes in leather hats with pewter tankards kept telling everyone they were wrong?

Just a thought.

Subject: RE: Does Folk Exist?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 17 Jul 09 - 03:42 PM

"I personally love the eclectic mix of offerings you get at amateur 'folk' circles (Blues, Beatles, and whatnot)."
Can't say I agree with you CS - whether I am attracted to any of SO'P's shopping list or not.
I saw the clubs empty, not particularly gradually, in the 1980s because it became possile to go home from a folk club without hearing a folk song - I would guess we lost something like two thirds of the audiences - including me.
It is not just a question of definition, rather it is whether I, as a potential punter, have the right to choose what I listen to.
I always wonder how an audience who turned up for a concert of chamber music would react if they were given a selection of rap, heavy metal, jazz - whatever, yet it is apparently acceptible for folk audiences.
Many of the clubs I visited in the 80s and 90 had become dustbins for discards who were not good enough to make it in their preferred music.
"Blues, Beatles, and whatnot"
Not particularly fond of The Beatles (having been driven out of my home town of Liverpool, where, unless you were interested in them or football - there was nothing else), so why should I conned into a folk club to listen to their songs(invariable poorly performed).
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Does Folk Exist?
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)
Date: 17 Jul 09 - 02:14 PM

"Nope - I'm lying - I know exactly what they would have made of it.
Jim Carroll"

As a relative newcomer, I truly believe Jim C, that there is plenty of room for all. That is what happens in amateur 'folk' circles, and as one of those who do sing mostly traditional songs, I personally love the eclectic mix of offerings you get at amateur 'folk' circles (Blues, Beatles, and whatnot). Indeed at one of the folk song meets I attend I *verge* on being the sole voice of traditional unaccompanied song there. Though I expect, given your prior comments about the work of others, that you would most likely dismiss my own efforts as meaningless pop. As I haven't invested a lifetime in the trade, it wouldn't sting any, but I do feel that some of your err negative comments, might not be particularly supportive of a cause which you yourself (unlike me a recent hobbyist) *have* invested a lifestimes energy into.

What has happened, is that people - who have ever gathered together to sing songs - are still doing so (albeit a re-kindled 'tradition' of gathering together to share in such a manner). But the songs they now sing are not necessarily only 'traditional folk songs', as people prior to the invasion of radios and musical media (who *were* dependent on oral transmission) might have done. Now they sing the songs that *they* hear, in fact just the same as 'the folk' did in days past.

However there are the more specialist folk events, which cater to 1954 tastes, they term themselves 'Traditional Folk'. I've only been to one such self-defined event in my short career as an amateur folk enthusiast, but they are out there - albeit in the minority. I hope these gain more recognition and support from the powers that be. Because they deserve to.
I personally feel, that the 'fate' of traditional song, now that it is no longer a 'real' aspect of culural continuity, aught not to be dependent upon the variable fate of the genre of 'folk' in the music industry, or indeed those small gatherings of people who like to sing and play together (under the convenient *name* of folk):

I do not believe - now that traditional song has been disconnected from 'the folk' - that we can allow it to remain subject like some failing Siamese sibling, to its healthier sister/s. Traditional song should stand alone on its own right, as a part of our collective cultural heritage, worthy of pushing down kids throats just the same as any other artistic discipline (like Shakespeare or Blake). Without such formal support, I feel it could indeed fade out altogether.

Subject: RE: Does Folk Exist?
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)
Date: 17 Jul 09 - 12:25 PM

Undesirable folkie-loric fantasies littering ones lawn?
Quick! Inform your Neighbourhood Watch, and/or Fortean Times, and/or local Pychiatric Unit.

Or just get down the pub and drink off the withdrawl symptoms.

Subject: RE: Does Folk Exist?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 17 Jul 09 - 12:23 PM

"still the sky's been clear of Jimbulocarrolonimbus of late,"
I lurked on the offchance that something more than smug self-abuse emerged from those who would re-write the guidebook - it didn't, so I didn't bother.
Any credit for 'Come To The Hiring' goes entirely to Jamsie McCarthy and his like - as you rightly say "the pure drop"; though I'm not sure what they would have made of:
"Blues, Shanties, Kipling, Cicely Fox Smith, Musical Hall, George Formby, Pop, County, Dylan, Cohen, Cash, Medieval Latin, Beatles, Irish Jigs and Reels, Scottish Strathspeys, Gospel, Rock, Classical Guitar, Native American Chants, Operatic Arias and even the occasional Traditional Song and Ballad."
Nope - I'm lying - I know exactly what they would have made of it.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Does Folk Exist?
From: Goose Gander
Date: 17 Jul 09 - 12:12 PM

There's a folkie in my garden!

Subject: RE: Does Folk Exist?
From: Spleen Cringe
Date: 17 Jul 09 - 12:08 PM

folkies

folkies

folkies

my kinda folkie

folkie wars

folk festival crowd

the female of the species

eek!

special folkies for Glueman (be very afraid)

Subject: RE: Does Folk Exist?
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)
Date: 17 Jul 09 - 11:29 AM

I saw a chap in a right OTT looking "folkie" get-up one meet a few months back: a crude navy smock, peaked navy cap, beard etc.
He sang shanties all afternoon.

I thought "blimey he's dressed up for this do!"

Later it dawned on me that the geezer was actually a err life-long fisherman by trade.

Truth!

Subject: RE: Does Folk Exist?
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 17 Jul 09 - 10:54 AM

Scene says owners club, pipe smoker of the year and the glint of pewter. None of them imaginary I assure you.

Yeah, but if you're the one imagining them...

Seriously, this is starting to reminds me of WAV threads - your mental universe seems just as cramped as his, not to mention your vision of 'folk'. Pewter, schmewter - 'folk scene' to me says

"we just get on with the music, have a great time, enjoy the company, the beer, the occasion" (Will)

"There will be banter, there will be laughter, there will be moments of spine-tingling beauty and moments of yearning melancholy to bring a tear to the eye of the most hardbitten cynic. There will also be a couple of fairly bobbins performances, but not without character and spirit. There will be people who play semi-professionally and others who are rank outsiders. There will be old lags and first timers. All will recieve a warm welcome, none will be excluded." (Spleen)

[and he was right - it was a good night]

"I now know that I could walk into any folk club in the country and be welcomed and have a pretty enjoyable evening." (CS)

Subject: RE: Does Folk Exist?
From: Brian Peters
Date: 17 Jul 09 - 10:46 AM

"owners club, pipe smoker of the year and the glint of pewter. None of them imaginary I assure you"

Not imaginary, any more than Arran sweaters were. Just wildly unrepresentative stereotyping.

"that glint, that messianic what-not..."

That, however, is imaginary.

Subject: RE: Does Folk Exist?
From: glueman
Date: 17 Jul 09 - 10:16 AM

Folk 'scene', not folk music. Scene says owners club, pipe smoker of the year and the glint of pewter. None of them imaginary I assure you.

Subject: RE: Does Folk Exist?
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 17 Jul 09 - 10:08 AM

"BTW Slimrod, you say fantasist like it's a bad thing."

Context is everything, 'glueman'. For example one of my favourite authors of all time is a 'fantasist'.

You, on the other hand, are a fantasist who dreams up imaginary enemies and then suggests that these phantoms are the reason why you hate the folk scene.

Subject: RE: Does Folk Exist?
From: Will Fly
Date: 17 Jul 09 - 09:11 AM

I feel like a lone voice in the wilderness here... There are just too many assumptions about the demographics of "folk", what the folk who "do folk" are like, and what they like. I can only - once again - talk from personal experience. Here's my music week so far:

Sunday: My local session in the Plough. Meself on guitar, an old mate on guitar and mandolin (both of us 64), said mate's nephew who's just done a course at BIM (Brighton Institute of Music) (in his early 20s), a couple on guitars and vocals, probably in their 50s - the bloke being one of the best guitarists I've heard in this area - plus one of our band members (40s) on melodeons and soprano sax, and a young couple in their mid-20s - her singing sweetly and him playing guitar and fiddle. The result of this mix? An evening of blues, jazz, early country music, Balkan fiddle tunes, Swedish folk tunes, 1930s torch songs, ragtime and English, Scottish and Irish traditional tunes.

Monday: the Surrey singaround (described in a post above):"Around 16 people sitting or standing, plus onlookers and other locals. There was a lot of singing - and some of that from Johnny Collins's repertoire (in tribute) by many there who had known him. And what glorious singing it was! I - who don't include this stuff in my own repertoire - sang myself hoarse as we raised the roof. Then there were the instruments - concertinas, guitars, fiddle, banjos, mandolins, accordion - sometimes solo, sometimes in duets and trios, sometimes all at once - on jazz tunes, a blues or two, some old-time music. But, most of all, there was immense humour, backchat, rude comments and jokes, plenty of beer drinking (including some of the best-kept pints of Adnams Broadside I've drunk outside Southwold) - interspersed with some excellent, free spicy snacks from the Nepalese landlord."

Wednesday: Get-together with two of the guys in our ceilidh band to work up some different rhythms and arrangements for some of the tunes, and get some ideas for new tunes for the dances.

Thursday: Dance evening up in Surrey at the same pub as Monday. Broadwood Morrish and local ladies' clog teams in alternating dances, followed by an immense jam in the bar. Highlights of the evening included a young chap from the Morris dancing a solo jig in the bar. Demographics of the Morris? From 20s to 80s! Music: much that was English traditional, but with plenty of old-time stuff from 1920s America, plus some great singing from young and old, male and female.

Night off tonight, but there's a ceilidh gig tomorrow, where we'll be playing - again - to young and old, and having great fun while watching them have great fun getting tangled up in the dances.

No philosophising here, no semantics, no hang-ups. we just get on with the music, have a great time, enjoy the company, the beer, the occasion. And sometimes get paid. What's the problem?

Subject: RE: Does Folk Exist?
From: glueman
Date: 17 Jul 09 - 09:01 AM

Thank you for your contribution to the thread. Some amusing ideas there.

Subject: RE: Does Folk Exist?
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 17 Jul 09 - 08:41 AM

you are the one who said, 'give me the hard stuff', as though folk had to be unlistenable, or obscure, or in need of learning to be any good.

Sure, like whisky is undrinkable, or obscure, or requires an education. That was a misreading on your part; I've explained what I meant once already, so this time round I'll class it as a deliberate misreading.

If you don't believe folk is largely a middle or old aged pursuit of jaded types in search of some folk mother lode (usually ranting that everything they don't approve of is pop) I suggest it's you who needs to get out more.

I don't know if you've noticed, but you've described All Those People You Hate in about six different ways now. Must be horrible having so many imaginary enemies. Anyway: yes, you and I and young Suibhne are on the young end of the folk demographic, and I think that's a shame. What does the rest of it mean, though? I believe that if you go to a classical concert you'll find a lot of people who are enthusiastic about classical music and less enthusiastic about other kinds of music. Same thing with jazz, same thing with folk. It'd be nice if everyone was open-minded enough to listen to everything all the time, but they're not. Slagging off folkies because they're enthusiastic about folk seems a bit desperate.

Subject: RE: Does Folk Exist?
From: glueman
Date: 17 Jul 09 - 07:22 AM

BTW Slimrod, you say fantasist like it's a bad thing. Doesn't blind me to manifest realities. Or the use of exclamations marks as a club. Hmm...Interesting? I wonder...?

Subject: RE: Does Folk Exist?
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 17 Jul 09 - 07:22 AM

Shimrod - I'm sure Pip needs your endorsement like he needs a hole in the head. A lot of sycophantic molluscs about this year - must be the all this rain, still the sky's been clear of Jimbulocarrolonimbus of late, though I am indebted to him for the recording of Jamesy McCarthy's Come to the Hiring (VOTP Vol 20) which is the pure drop...

Subject: RE: Does Folk Exist?
From: glueman
Date: 17 Jul 09 - 07:15 AM

Au contraire, small salad, you are the one who said, 'give me the hard stuff', as though folk had to be unlistenable, or obscure, or in need of learning to be any good. I say it IS a broad church but the same hackneyed sterotypes keep trying to narrow it down to those in tune with higher vibrations like a dodgy medium. Or obsessed with definitions.

If you don't believe folk is largely a middle or old aged pursuit of jaded types in search of some folk mother lode (usually ranting that everything they don't approve of is pop) I suggest it's you who needs to get out more.

Subject: RE: Does Folk Exist?
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 17 Jul 09 - 07:07 AM

I endorse everything that Pip says - you're a fantasist, 'glueman' - and I'm still on your case!

Subject: RE: Does Folk Exist?
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 17 Jul 09 - 06:04 AM

Actually that's precisely my point. Of course you think I'm like that - because you basically think everyone except you and a couple of others are like that. What I'm trying to get through to you is that there is no like that. All your generalisations are false. You're imagining things - and why you're imagining them God only knows, because the reality is a lot more welcoming.

I've said it before and I'll probably say it again - you should get out more.

Subject: RE: Does Folk Exist?
From: glueman
Date: 17 Jul 09 - 05:47 AM

First, find your mirror.

Subject: RE: Does Folk Exist?
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 17 Jul 09 - 05:44 AM

None of the accessories

which I've never seen

condemn a man without that other thing, that glint, that messianic what-not that starts in the feet and works itself through the shoulders and out through t'gob

which I've also never seen.

Remind me, what colour's the sky on your planet?