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BS: So why has the BNP gained votes?
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Subject: BS: So why has the BNP gained votes? From: Lizzie Cornish 1 Date: 22 Jul 09 - 04:26 PM Thoughts, anyone?
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Subject: RE: BS: So why has the BNP gained votes? From: Riginslinger Date: 22 Jul 09 - 05:11 PM Unfettered immigration? |
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Subject: RE: BS: So why has the BNP gained votes? From: Royston Date: 22 Jul 09 - 05:13 PM Some elements of protest vote but mainly because a heck of a lot of people were pissed off by the venal nature of the mainstream parties so they stayed at home and gave the elections to the dedicated fascists of the BNP; who have been planning for years and just waiting for such an opportunity. Take the two EU seats - Nazi Nick in NW England polled 8% of the vote and Andrew Brons in Humberside got 9.6% of the vote. Hardly a convincing electoral smash is it? In Humberside the labour vote was 56% down on 2004 levels. The stay-at-home factor. Well done UK voters! |
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Subject: RE: BS: So why has the BNP gained votes? From: Richard Bridge Date: 22 Jul 09 - 05:31 PM So predictable, Rig. |
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Subject: RE: BS: So why has the BNP gained votes? From: Spleen Cringe Date: 22 Jul 09 - 06:15 PM In the North West, the BNP vote fell from 134,959 at the 2004 European election to 132,094 this year. In Yorkshire and the Humber, its vote fell from 126,538 in 2004 to 120,139. Obviously, any vote is one vote too many, but the election of Griffin and Brons is more about the collapse of the Labour vote than any massive surge towards fascism. To quote from the socialist press, "The BNP has exploited concerns over unemployment, targeting fear and anger at migrants by standing on a platform of defending "British jobs". They have also benefited from the climate of racism against Muslims and migrant workers that New Labour has helped to whip up, as well as from the disillusionment with mainstream politics caused by the MPs' expenses scandal." What is growing far faster than support for the BNP right now is support for the anti fascist alliances such as Unite Against Fascism... |
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Subject: RE: BS: So why has the BNP gained votes? From: Royston Date: 22 Jul 09 - 06:30 PM Howzat! Killer blow, knocked for 6 by spleeny! Cheers! Spleeeeeeen Cringe. God, I love that name! |
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Subject: RE: BS: So why has the BNP gained votes? From: Dave the Gnome Date: 22 Jul 09 - 06:36 PM Very good point SC and one I shall remember. So, in answer to the question - They haven't! The vote for the BNP has in fact decreased. It is a complete breakdown or trust in all the mainsteam parties that has enabled the extremists to gain power. Should be a wake up call to everyone but I doubt that the nature of British politics will change much because of it. Cheers DeG |
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Subject: RE: BS: So why has the BNP gained votes? From: Spleen Cringe Date: 22 Jul 09 - 06:37 PM And Royston, you described yourself as a libertarian on another thread (Rather than a small town in Hertfordshire...), so a big friendly YOWSAH! back to you. Keep the black flag flying! ¡No Pasarán! |
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Subject: RE: BS: So why has the BNP gained votes? From: GUEST,MJ Date: 22 Jul 09 - 06:39 PM You lot don't half talk a load of rubbish. Of course the actual votes were down for the BNP. I think you'll find that the actual votes were down for most parties as less people bothered to vote. I'm no BNP supporter, but don't just crow about incomplete facts - list totals for all the parties and give a far more rounded view instead of trying to mislead people in the same way that you all keep telling us that the BNP do. Hello we're not total imbeciles. MJ |
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Subject: RE: BS: So why has the BNP gained votes? From: Dave the Gnome Date: 22 Jul 09 - 06:54 PM When has anyone said otherwise MJ? You are quite right about the last point though. DeG |
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Subject: RE: BS: So why has the BNP gained votes? From: Spleen Cringe Date: 22 Jul 09 - 07:08 PM MJ, the BNP thought that votes going down for mainstream parties would translate into more votes for them. Despite the daily news stories about politicians from the major parties with their noses in the trough it clearly didn't happen. We need to nail the myth that the nazi vote is up. And for the record, I'm not interested in the "rounded" view. I'm interested in sending the BNP back to whatever stone they crawled out from under, because I don't believe there is a place for an openly racist, fascist party in a modern democracy. |
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Subject: RE: BS: So why has the BNP gained votes? From: Royston Date: 22 Jul 09 - 07:09 PM Oh don't be such a dullard MJ. SC has given you the 2004/2009 absolute numbers for the BNP vote in Yorks./Humber The labour comparison is 413,213 (2004) against 230,009 (2009) Tories are 387,369 / 299,802 Lib dems are 244,607 / 161,552 The fall in absolute numbers in the BNP vote is a little cause for celebration. What is really worth celebrating is that the only reason the vile scum got their seats is because of the above-detailed collapse in the mainstream vote. The stay-at-home effect. If you want to do some work and bring some reasoned, referenced arguments to the table then go ahead. *We* are not total imbeciles. |
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Subject: RE: BS: So why has the BNP gained votes? From: Peace Date: 22 Jul 09 - 08:01 PM The BNP party leader (Nick Gifford? Grifford?) has been elected. HIS seat is lucrative and secure for a bit. Does anyone really think he gives a damn about the rank and file now? Dream on. |
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Subject: RE: BS: So why has the BNP gained votes? From: Peace Date: 22 Jul 09 - 08:05 PM GRIFFIN --that's it--GRIFFIN. |
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Subject: RE: BS: So why has the BNP gained votes? From: Richard Bridge Date: 22 Jul 09 - 08:42 PM I think that there are reasons for the relative firmness in the BNP vote that are not within the remit of FaF. The purpose of FaF although generally to oppose fascism and hence the BNP is more specifically to prevent fascists and so the BNP from taking "ownership" (ghastly modern misuse of that word) of traditional folk arts in England and/or the UK. The purpose of this thread is to discuss the (absolute or relative) rise in the BNP vote which is a much broader question. |
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Subject: RE: BS: So why has the BNP gained votes? From: Pierre Le Chapeau Date: 22 Jul 09 - 08:50 PM I do not know about figures or names but what is clearly happening is that the main parties have bullshitted and lied and robbed so much over the years that folk are not voting for them anymore and you cant wonder at it? folk are fed up. Clearly there is a national no confidence in the main political parties I wont and have not voted for any of them in years? And before any one goes off spouting about "If you do not vote you do not have a say? Well clearly that is Bollocks. I put it to you. Non voters say a hell of a lot. BMP have been waiting for this non vote melt down for years.. Do not blame the voter blame the main parties themselves, There is a national no confidence in the main political parties. BIG TIME.And its there own sodding fault. |
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Subject: RE: BS: So why has the BNP gained votes? From: Peace Date: 22 Jul 09 - 08:54 PM You are of course correct. BUT, that doesn't solve the problem. I am old enough to have been voting in Canada for four decades. I still have never missed voting even when the choices have been beneath contempt. I simply mark my ballot with, ""You have GOT to be kidding." |
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Subject: RE: BS: So why has the BNP gained votes? From: Pierre Le Chapeau Date: 22 Jul 09 - 09:10 PM Hi Peace. Re Beneath contempt? Fimilarality breeds comtempt nationally. |
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Subject: RE: BS: So why has the BNP gained votes? From: Riginslinger Date: 22 Jul 09 - 09:58 PM "So predictable, Rig." And so factual! |
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Subject: RE: BS: So why has the BNP gained votes? From: Spleen Cringe Date: 23 Jul 09 - 03:40 AM Whilst not voting is clearly better than voting for the BNP, you can't ignore voter apathy as part of the reason for the fact that the fascists have two seats. I'll say it one more time: their vote hasn't gone up, it's gone down. Problem is, people stayed away from the elections in droves, possibly because they don't see the Euro-elections as important, possibly because they don't give a shit and possibly because they swallowed the media-led, populist, anti-politician frenzy the Telegraph started just in time for the elections. Yes, some politicians have their snouts in the trough, but what's new? The Lib Dems don't, particularly, and the Greens certainly don't. People could have voted for them rather than staying on the sofa glued to Big Brother. There are real issues around which to make a decision about who to vote for rather than the side shows about expenses: Labour's increased health and education spending over the past twelve years (good!) or Labour's dodgy overseas adventures in Iraq and Afghanistan (bad!)... just two examples for starters. On some levels, the Telegraph campaign is just another example of dumbed down celebrity culture where someone's duck island becomes more important that the policies of his party. It's the latter, not the former, that will for better or worse impact on your life... So by all means withhold you vote, but at least do it for a decent reason. And at least show some enthusiasm and commitment by going to the polling station and spoiling your ballot card rather than passively staying away. |
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Subject: RE: BS: So why has the BNP gained votes? From: Royston Date: 23 Jul 09 - 03:47 AM P-l-C Absolutely spot on mate. Said it before, I'll say it again... Real Political Parties: * Start talking sensibly about immigration, how low it actually is and the need for it to continue. * Build more social housing * Build more hospitals * Build more schools And the BNP will wither away. |
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Subject: RE: BS: So why has the BNP gained votes? From: Richard Bridge Date: 23 Jul 09 - 03:48 AM No, rig, no party proposes unfettered immigration. I have a good friend who used to sit as a judge (maybe still does) in the immigration appeal tribunal and she used to refuse shedloads of immigration appeals. |
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Subject: RE: BS: So why has the BNP gained votes? From: Royston Date: 23 Jul 09 - 04:00 AM And Rig, don't come here claiming your wishful thinking as "Factual" when the election numbers have been posted here in *factual* proof that the number of BNP voters IN A SEAT THEY WON *fell* slightly. The only reason they WON is because their SHARE of the vote increased because the vote for the main parties dropped off the edge of a cliff. |
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Subject: RE: BS: So why has the BNP gained votes? From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies) Date: 23 Jul 09 - 04:42 AM The new FaF thread seems to be Woody Guthries birthday?! ;-) Eh oh: in any case I'm guessing that *this* is actually the new FaF thread, so here are pertinent links before the other one falls off the board: FaF Facebook FaF MySpace FaF Webpage (work in progress) Also a cut & paste (begging his indulgence) of one of Roystons most recent posts made near the end of the old one, in response to a previous request for links to proof of some of the stated objections to the BNP: "Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: Royston - PM Date: 22 Jul 09 - 02:10 PM fairplay, sorry old chap. You may have a point. Is there another fascist political party in the UK? One that I missed? Because if there is then I will organise against that also. The BNP is not a normal political party. It aims to use and subvert the democratic process in order to secure power; after which it will enact its inhumane, anti-democratic policies. Nazi Nick has been caught on camera (or has blatantly bragged to the watching media) that BNP policy is geared at sowing discontent and disaffection amongst poor white folk to whip up racial discord and hatred. His policy is - according to him - to stop talking about the true end-game of BNP policy, until they have secured power or sufficient momentum in public opinion, so that their true agenda is either more "acceptable" or can be implemented forcibly. PROOF HERE - Nazi Nick addressing a group of American white-supremacists in New Orleans arranged by the former KKK leader David Duke. Play the video, listen to Nazi Nick's own words. "BNP is not about selling out its ideas, which are your ideas too [the KKK]...but we will use the saleable words: 'freedom', 'identity', 'security', 'democracy'...nobody can criticise them, nobody can attack you for those, they are saleable. Perhaps one day, once by being rather more subtle we've got ourselves in a position where we control the British broadcast media...people may change their mind and say 'every last one of them must go'...but if you hold that out as your aim to start with you'll get absolutely nowhere. So instead of talking about racial purity we talk about 'racial identity'" What say you to that, fairplay?" As you were guys.. :-) |
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Subject: RE: BS: So why has the BNP gained votes? From: Richard Bridge Date: 23 Jul 09 - 06:07 AM Yes, this is the new FaF thread. Joe closed the old one and immediately BNP clones were crowing on FaF. |
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Subject: RE: BS: So why has the BNP gained votes? From: GUEST,ifor Date: 23 Jul 09 - 06:38 AM One reason for the increasing electoral success of the BNP has been the rising and open racism of ta large section of the mainstream press which has dripped on an almost weekly basis a bunch of anti immigrant,anti refugee and Islamophobic stories and articles for years. In addition Labour politicians have also fed the racist feeding frenzy with all kinds of dangerous smears and attacks. This has allowed the BNP to appear to be tucked in nicely with what passes as mainstream political opinion. As anti racists we should make no concessions to the thugs of the BNP but also the widespread racism being pumped out by newspapers and politicians alike. Ifor |
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Subject: RE: BS: So why has the BNP gained votes? From: Emma B Date: 23 Jul 09 - 06:58 AM I'm sorry that the Faf thread was closed as, apart from the usual thread drift, its title did indicate that it was the appropiate place to look for (or post) information about any forth coming concerts, events etc especially for those people not on Facebook or myspace Unfortunately, as any regular poster to the forum knows, starting another (related) thread is the most likely way of getting the older one closed down :( Good luck with the Web site |
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Subject: RE: BS: So why has the BNP gained votes? From: GUEST,George Davis Date: 23 Jul 09 - 08:24 AM THREE BNP THREADS IS TOO MUCH, PLEASE CLOSE TWO OF THEM. |
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Subject: RE: BS: So why has the BNP gained votes? From: theleveller Date: 23 Jul 09 - 08:33 AM Why? |
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Subject: RE: BS: So why has the BNP gained votes? From: GUEST,George Davis Date: 23 Jul 09 - 08:38 AM Because Bruce starts swearing !! |
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Subject: RE: BS: So why has the BNP gained votes? From: Peace Date: 23 Jul 09 - 08:39 AM Because George Davis is a BNP supporter and he hates to see the BNP getting its ass kicked by folks who post here. That's why. |
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Subject: RE: BS: So why has the BNP gained votes? From: theleveller Date: 23 Jul 09 - 08:39 AM "Hello we're not total imbeciles." Unless you voted BNP, of course. A large proportion of the vote for Brons came from the major connurbation in the area - Hull, which has to be one of the most racist cities in England. |
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Subject: RE: BS: So why has the BNP gained votes? From: Peace Date: 23 Jul 09 - 08:41 AM Hey George: are you the poof wot 'angs with Fairplay? |
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Subject: RE: BS: So why has the BNP gained votes? From: Peace Date: 23 Jul 09 - 08:43 AM "Subject: RE: BS: So why has the BNP gained votes? From: GUEST,George Davis - PM Date: 23 Jul 09 - 08:38 AM Because Bruce starts swearing !!" Cursing, not swearing. So, 'ow's it, cupcake? |
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Subject: RE: BS: So why has the BNP gained votes? From: Peace Date: 23 Jul 09 - 08:53 AM If Nick Griffiths is the head of the BNP, is it possible that George Davis is the anal sphincter? |
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Subject: RE: BS: So why has the BNP gained votes? From: Richard Bridge Date: 23 Jul 09 - 09:25 AM Oh, he'll have plenty of friends then. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Folk Against Facism - Part II From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies) Date: 23 Jul 09 - 09:35 AM I think what is somewhat disappointing about the FaF thread in particular being closed, is that of all three current BNP related discussions, the FaF thread was the ONLY thread which very *specifically pertains to Folk Music*. Yes there was substantial thread drift, but the organisation itself is one for folk enthusiasts wishing to take demonstrate their discomfort at traditional British Folk Music and Arts, being currently targeted by the BNP in particular and utilised for far-right, nationalistic, and racist propaganda. While some of those across the pond, might think we're creating a big old storm in a teacup about all this, considering the historical precedent for similar strategies by the Nazi's during WWII and the current increase of interest in and apparent support for far-right politics in the UK (especially amid a time of economic trouble), this issue is of current and key importance to British Folk enthusiasts. As such, whatever threads concerning associated topics happen to be current, I'll try to make sure links to FaF sites are present, for any interested parties. Otherwise there does seem to be something of a deluge of associated threads currently, which is why I can understand Joe's decision to close one (albeit with some chagrin, that it happened to be the only one that was specifically pertinent to this board and its membership). I expect this thread will be closed, but I hope that if a later thread is initiated with further updates about FaF Folk Musical events, that it will be posted (and indeed permitted to remain) Above the Line, where other music threads are posted, and indeed where most of the relevent British membership tend to congregate. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Folk Against Facism - Part II From: Azizi Date: 23 Jul 09 - 10:02 AM I posted my comment before reading Crow Sister's 23 Jul 09 - 09:35 AM post. In the hope that this thread is not closed, here are the links to FaF pages: Folk Against Fascism Facebook Folk Against Fascism MySpace Folk Against Fascism website (work in progress) |
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Subject: RE: BS: Folk Against Facism - Part II From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies) Date: 23 Jul 09 - 10:06 AM Apologies to non-British members of FaF, and other interested parties (including Azizi & Peace there). I think my last post was clearly in error presuming that FaF was only of interest interest to British folk enthusiasts! A pretty daft oversight on my part, seeing the contributions from non-British members of Mudcat on the prior FaF thread... |
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Subject: RE: BS: Folk Against Facism - Part II From: Peace Date: 23 Jul 09 - 10:42 AM Hey, Crow Sister, NO apology necessary. The BNP will and do grab anything they think will be useful to them. The one saving grace is that the UK folks are much too smart to fall for their party line. Yes, some will. It's a given that every society has its share of idiots. The fact that the BNP gets any support at all will attest to that. However, the BNP cannot take your music from you. And since y'all ain't gonna let 'em, they will continue to look like the scum they are: liars, thugs, bums and just plain-old-garden-variety Nazis and racists. It's people like you, CS, who will ensure that they don't win. Their votes are dropping, and so is their popularity. Keep up the good work. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Folk Against Facism - Part II From: Lizzie Cornish 1 Date: 23 Jul 09 - 12:17 PM Fascism. Fascism. FaScism. Got it. :0) Here you go, George...your leader.... "Nazi Scum Off Our Streets" - Youtube |
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Subject: RE: BS: Folk Against Facism - Part II From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies) Date: 23 Jul 09 - 12:33 PM Lizzie, although I support your intentions and I also see that that particular footage might represent *a proportion* of perhaps rightfully angered rejection of BNP policies, unfortunately IMO it's not the right way to *communicate the threat BNP policies truly imply for this country*. Because I feel it is neither helpful to democratic process, or indeed increasing broader awareness of the BNP's *true* agenda (as illustrated in the: Nick Griffin teaching the KKK about 'how to sound more nice for the public' speech, link), I will never myself participate in egg-throwing or other similar superficial strategies intended to publicly humiliate (and thus unfortunately effectively MARTYR) BNP representatives or their supporters. I'd far rather see intelligent breakdown of BNP propeganda. That is what's needed. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Folk Against Facism - Part II From: Ruth Archer Date: 23 Jul 09 - 01:05 PM I agree with Crow Sister. I removed the gloating over the egging of Nick Griffin from the facebook FAF page, because it's not something that we, as a group, would want to be associated with, for all of the reasons cited above. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Folk Against Facism - Part II From: Lizzie Cornish 1 Date: 23 Jul 09 - 01:09 PM Well, there are times when personally, I think he deserves far more than an egg coming his way, but...that's just me. I'm afraid I don't deal very well, or politely, with folks who want to sink the boats of immigrants and let them cling to a life-raft. I mean...this man, imo, is seriously nuts! But...he's not as nutty as those who've voted for him. Nick Griffin 'Sinking The Boats' - Youtube You see, it's all linked up with Dumbing Down, isn't it. People no longer think deeply, or think for themselves, they've become apathetic automatons, who see a 10 second clip and think "Cor, that bloke's talkin' sense, ain't he. I fink we'll vote for 'im, Dolores!" What fooks me off the most about them, apart from their obvious hatred of anyone who's not 'them'...is that they have the audacity to stand in front of the flag my Dad fought for, a flag that stands for freedom, democracy and fairness. These scumbags should be flying Hitler's flag, not ours. And WHO is this twit? The Reverend Robert West He's saying that the BNP is pretty much saying what the Bible says, that we should live as 'nations'...... ?????????? Gawd, if EVER there was a man who could make God shudder in his shoes, I think this is the man who could do it! Yeesh! We are a nation. We are ONE nation, that's the whole point! We're all the same bloomin' species! (apart from Nick Griffin of course, who's one on his own, imho, naturally) |
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Subject: RE: BS: Folk Against Facism - Part II From: Peace Date: 23 Jul 09 - 01:12 PM Mick Griffiths is different. Has anyone else noticed he's gained about two and a half stone since he got elected? Must be the beer ya figure? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Folk Against Facism - Part II From: Penny S. Date: 23 Jul 09 - 01:59 PM Interesting that Bible based idea - that I first met in an Odinist book, possibly also believing in the making of the earth from a dead giant's bits and pieces. Penny |
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Subject: RE: BS: Folk Against Facism - Part II From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies) Date: 23 Jul 09 - 02:17 PM Some interesting stuff there Lizzie! What is this: "Babel thesis of one undifferentiated mass" that I hear speak of? I want to hear MORE! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Folk Against Facism - Part II From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies) Date: 23 Jul 09 - 02:18 PM This 'Babel Thesis' Sounds uber "Love thy Neighbour" if you ask me? Good Christian stuff then. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Folk Against Facism - Part II From: Peace Date: 23 Jul 09 - 02:21 PM Babel pretty much describes the BNP, imo. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Folk Against Facism - Part II From: Ruth Archer Date: 23 Jul 09 - 02:33 PM The "Reverend" Robert West "Ekklesia, the Christian think-tank has been doing some digging into the status of Robert West. Jonathan Bartley, writing on Ekklesia's blog, can find no church that will admit that it ordained West, or that he is a member. Bartley does, however, quote the Apostolic Church (that were pointed at previously by the Times as the religious home of West) denying that they have any knowledge of West. A spokesperson of the Apostolic Church said: "If he were an active member of the Church his views would not be accepted by the Church and disciplinary action would be undertaken by the Church which strongly distances itself from views such as these." However, this seems a little disingenous of the Apostolic Church, as West is no longer 'active' in the Apostolic Church. Robert West was first outed as a BNP member in the famous leak of the BNP membership leak of 2008, where he was clearly listed as an Apostolic Church clergyman. Contacted by The Times (November 20th, 2008), West was defiant - and still seemingly a clergyman in the Apostolic Church: "At the Apostolic Church in Holbeach, Lincolnshire, the Rev Robert West was unrepentant. 'I am a member of the BNP since May 2006,' he said. 'That's public knowledge. God has divided the nations for their own good. Every race needs their space. But I get on with the ethnic minorities,' he insisted. 'I love them really.'" Today the "Reverend" Robert West seems to have no current connection to any Christian denomination apart from the Christian Council of Britain, which he co-founded with the BNP. Various Christian organisations have denounced the Christian Council of Britain, whilst the BNP's religious tactics have been reported in the Christian press. Back in December 2008, the General Synod of the Church of England voted to ban clergy from joining the BNP. The thinktank Ekklesia has pointed out that churches need to disassociate themselves from the "Christian nation" rhetoric which the BNP exploits. A few days ago the Methodist Church has become the first major denomination in the UK to ban all its members from joining the British National Party." His credentials seem as robust as those of former BNP press spokesman "Dr Phil Edwards" (real name Stuart Russell). |