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BS: So why has the BNP gained votes?
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Subject: RE: BS: Folk Against Facism - Part II From: Peace Date: 23 Jul 09 - 02:37 PM The BNP people DO seem to have difficulty with their own names. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Folk Against Facism - Part II From: Lizzie Cornish 1 Date: 23 Jul 09 - 02:37 PM Sory, I forgot to post the Youtube video that goes with the link to Robert West's letter, which I posted above. Here he is: Rev. Robert West on Youtube God Help Us All, eh? Strangely, they didn't let my 'comment' go on to their page yesterday. I can't think why. ;0) |
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Subject: RE: BS: Folk Against Facism - Part II From: Royston Date: 23 Jul 09 - 03:12 PM Forgive me, I haven't listened to the "Reverend's" stuff about Babel but I wanted to chip in about the reference to him arguing that God made us nations for own good. I infer from this that he argues God determined that we should stay apart for our own good. You see some Christian theological reasoning argues that the "Babel" incident was God acting to stop a juvenile humanity over-reaching itself by striving for knowledge it had not necessarily earned, or was not ready for. So, some say, "Babel" sent humans into nations and tribes with barriers (at least) of language so that they would have to find a way back to unity and mutual understanding before being entitled to, or earning, the knowledge of the divine that had been the objective of the tower-builders. So it follows that some Christians believe that the separation of nations and tribes is a human condition which must be overcome in order for enlightenment to occur. This rings with Islamic beliefs where (to a Muslim) God has said most plainly in the Qur'an that he has made humans into tribes and nations "that you might come to know each other". All of which flies in the face of Nazi Nick and his fascist friends. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Folk Against Facism - Part II From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies) Date: 23 Jul 09 - 04:08 PM "Forgive me, I haven't listened to the "Reverend's" stuff about Babel" I wuz just being tongue in cheek there R, :-) |
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Subject: RE: BS: Folk Against Facism - Part II From: Peace Date: 23 Jul 09 - 04:16 PM I got it now. The 'nation' he's talking about refers to the Scots. Same damned reason the Romans built the wall. My ancestors used to go south to plunder women, kill sheep and rape the men. They never have forgiven us. Buncha sissies. So, is this 'Reverend' the new Mick Griffith? Inquiring minds . . . . |
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Subject: RE: BS: Folk Against Facism - Part II From: Lizzie Cornish 1 Date: 23 Jul 09 - 04:58 PM More Robert West (I've dropped the Reverend bit) |
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Subject: RE: BS: Folk Against Facism - Part II From: Lox Date: 23 Jul 09 - 05:15 PM Loving all the comments concerning our pal Mike Geffin and his portly portentous pretensions. Why has the number of BNP votes gone up ... ... it hasn't ... .. why has it gone down ... who cares. probably because mook goofy is losing his touch with the ladies. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Folk Against Facism - Part II From: Richard Bridge Date: 23 Jul 09 - 05:20 PM Peace, are you sure you have that the right way round? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Folk Against Facism - Part II From: GUEST,Ralphie Date: 23 Jul 09 - 05:41 PM I've had 4 (Yes 4!) PMs to my facebook account today. 2 From Richard Bridge(sic)...Yes I know it's not you Richard! One from the esteemed George Davies! And one from Royston Rifleman. They've obviously all done a lot of digging into my musical history...Shame they got it so wrong...I would have loved to have been a member of Pyewackett...Sadly I was just their occasional sound man! The Eric logo was the White Horse of Uffington, not Effenham (wherever tha may be!) I'm so looking forward to the next message from these strange people! I don't get angry...I just laugh at their stupidity...Open Mouths, insert feet! Toodle Pip all Ralphie |
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Subject: RE: BS: So why has the BNP gained votes? From: Joe Offer Date: 23 Jul 09 - 07:54 PM While the original "Folk Against Facism" thread specifically pertained to folk music, the last folk music post in the old thread, was posted well over a month ago. In the last two weeks, it had denigrated to petty squabbling and sloganeering that had nothing to do with music, so it was moved to the non-music section and then closed when this thread was opened. When there's more to discuss from a folk music perspective, then would be a good time to start a new thread. Until that happens, this existing BNP thread should suffice. There was no need to start TWO new BNP threads today. So, please use this thread for discussion about the BNP. If you wish to discuss thread closure, please contact me by personal message. -Joe Offer- |
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Subject: RE: BS: So why has the BNP gained votes? From: GUEST,George Davis Date: 23 Jul 09 - 08:13 PM Joe, It's an emotive subject which you handled sensitively. If anyone wants to read about the BNP there is already enough on the web about them, they even have their own website. If anyone wants to use four letter words or call people names head over there. This site lost it's sparkle over the past few weeks due to BNP threads, I would dearly like to see everyone put it behind them and move on. Come on, friendship is more important. |
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Subject: RE: BS: So why has the BNP gained votes? From: Joe Offer Date: 23 Jul 09 - 08:21 PM Well, it's an important subject, and Mudcatters have passionate feelings about it. We need to have an ongoing discussion of the BNP. Still, it just doesn't work to have parallel threads running on the same subject. When I see people post a message in one thread, and then copy-paste the same message into another current thread, I know that there's a bit too much duplication. But anyhow, let's go back to the discussion of the BNP. -Joe- |
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Subject: RE: BS: So why has the BNP gained votes? From: Lox Date: 23 Jul 09 - 09:07 PM "I would dearly like to see everyone put it behind them and move on." When the second world war ended, the allied nations who fought against Nazism had exactly the same thought. Lets leave this great evil behind us. Sadly, it seems that it has refused to die and as a rsult we have had to learn to be ever vigilant. Therefore, when the BNP no longer has reps in the european parliament, nor on local government, nor any other support whatsoever, and when Nazi Ideology has been eradicated so that it may no longer contaminate society with its poison, then we will be able to say that we have left it behind us. Democracy is a precious luxury. It must be participated in to keep itself protected from ideologies that would otherwise cause its disintegration. So George, in fact you have unwitingly hit the nail n the head. We would love to put all this talk of the BNP far behind us. |
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Subject: RE: BS: So why has the BNP gained votes? From: Azizi Date: 23 Jul 09 - 09:35 PM For the record, my 23 Jul 09 - 10:02 AM comment found above was in reference to this post that I wrote: thread.cfm?threadid=122461&messages=19#2685977 RE: BS: Folk Against Facism - Part II |
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Subject: RE: BS: So why has the BNP gained votes? From: Richard Bridge Date: 24 Jul 09 - 02:57 AM Real Ralphie, if you were to become a Mudcat member we could PM you and vice versa, and once we knew that you were you (so to speak) it would avoid the potential ambiguity of the often cloned Facebook identities and the public nature of open posts here. |
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Subject: RE: BS: So why has the BNP gained votes? From: Fred McCormick Date: 24 Jul 09 - 06:49 AM Lizzie Cornish. Re Robert West Youtube link. During his tirade on above, this greaseball introduced the name of The Christian Council of Britain, as though it has some standing in the theological world. I googled Christian Council of Britain. It's a front for the BNP. |
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Subject: RE: BS: So why has the BNP gained votes? From: Emma B Date: 24 Jul 09 - 07:23 AM What wiki has to say - "Taking its name directly in imitation of the Muslim Council of Britain, the Christian Council of Britain was set up by concerned British Christians of various denominations with assistance from members and supporters of the BNP in April 2006. BNP web editor Steve Blake who runs an IT consultancy registered the URL christiancouncil.org.uk on behalf of the CCB and provided a basic template for the fledgling organisation's website. The Observer reported on April 16, 2006 that Clive Potter, another member of the BNP was to be the president of the CCB. Rev. Robert West, a former Conservative district councillor and a founding member of the Christian Council of Britain defected to the BNP in May 2006. The CCB is opposed to female ordination and leadership and the ordination of gay men. The Council believes that there is a 'godly importance of race and nation' The Christian Council of Britain has been criticised by a number of mainstream British Christian organisations who claim that 'Christian belief is incompatible with any political party or philosophy that is based on hatred or treats people as inferior because of their race, beliefs or for any other reason' and argues against the CCB's theological views on separation of races." A stement from the Methodist church spokesperson "I am outraged that the BNP and its allies are using Christianity to further their agenda of segregation and division. I think most Christians will be deeply affronted by this and want to speak out against such misguided extremism. We reaffirm our earlier statements that Christian belief is incompatible with any political party or philosophy that is based on hatred or treats people as inferior because of their race, beliefs or for any other reason The CCB has claimed that the Bible justifies its support for the BNP's repatriation policy. But the Revd Ken Howcroft, Coordinating Secretary for Conference and Communication, said "this was a way of interpreting scripture that was used to justify apartheid in South Africa, the banning of mixed-race marriages and the setting up of homelands. The South African Council of Churches condemned this interpretation, and some of the churches that did support this interpretation later formally repented. In Galatians, Paul writes 'In Christ there is no Jew or Gentile,' and this makes it clear that there is no Christian basis for racial discrimination or separation." A letter in my local newspaper |
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Subject: RE: BS: So why has the BNP gained votes? From: Lizzie Cornish 1 Date: 24 Jul 09 - 07:31 AM Well, well..... Thank you, Fred. The Christian Council of Britain - Wiki Taken from there: >>>Formation and association with the BNP "Taking its name directly in imitation of the Muslim Council of Britain, the Christian Council of Britain was set up by concerned British Christians of various denominations with assistance from members and supporters of the BNP in April 2006. BNP web editor Steve Blake who runs an IT consultancy registered the URL christiancouncil.org.uk on behalf of the CCB and provided a basic template for the fledgling organisation's website.[4] The Observer reported on April 16, 2006 that Clive Potter, another member of the BNP was to be the president of the CCB.[5] Rev. Robert West, a former Conservative district councillor and a founding member of the Christian Council of Britain defected to the BNP in May 2006.[6]"<<<< The Christian Council of Britain - their own site So, is *anyone* allowed to wear a 'dog collar' and call themselves 'Reverend' then? This programme shows how *easy* it is for people to be taken in... The 'Loose Women' TV show discussing why the BNP have got their seats. - Youtube And here is 'The Big Questions' debating the BNPs 'right to be heard' - with guest speakers, including BNP members and Benjamin Zephaniah: Part 1 Part 2 Part 3 |
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Subject: RE: BS: So why has the BNP gained votes? From: Emma B Date: 24 Jul 09 - 08:24 AM Robert West stood as the BNP candidate in yesterday's by election in Norwich after failing to get enough votes in the East Midlands to win a seat in the European Parliament last month. The 53-year-old, said during campaigning "We are taking a strong anti-immigration line. And we are against the issue of sovereignty to the European community. I believe multi-culturalism is unnecessary and evil. "I want the people of Norwich to follow this line and realise we have not been tough enough on immigration. I do not want anywhere in this country turning into the Middle East. "This is Britain and I will fight to keep it that way." http://www.eveningnews24.co.uk/content/news/story.aspx?brand=ENOnline&category=News&tBrand=ENOnline&tCategory=news&itemid=NOED22%20Jun%202009%2018%3A13%3A41%3A730 -local news report and photo He polled 941 votes representing 2.74% of the total votes cast |
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Subject: RE: BS: So why has the BNP gained votes? From: Riginslinger Date: 25 Jul 09 - 11:33 AM "I am outraged that the BNP and its allies are using Christianity to further their agenda of segregation and division." Isn't that what religion is all about? |
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Subject: RE: BS: So why has the BNP gained votes? From: GUEST,Shimrod Date: 25 Jul 09 - 12:24 PM "And before any one goes off spouting about "If you do not vote you do not have a say? Well clearly that is Bollocks. I put it to you. Non voters say a hell of a lot." Pierre le Chapeau Actually, 'Peter the Hat' non-voters say nothing whatsoever! If you don't vote you not only have no say but you also reveal yourself to be a lazy, ignorant fool. The ONLY chance that you have to alter things in this country is through the ballot box. The stupid Labour non-voters in the NW and Humberside let the BNP in and their equally stupid brothers and sisters in Norwich have just let the Tories in. A 'non-vote' is usually a vote for the Right. If you're too idle, apathetic and selfish to engage in the political process you will be to blame when the country slips further and further rightward. Not voting will merely create a 'power vacuum' which will be filled by some very unsavoury people. |
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Subject: RE: BS: So why has the BNP gained votes? From: Fred McCormick Date: 25 Jul 09 - 02:08 PM Emma B. Re. your link to the news report on Robert West. Note the mysoginistic/chauvinistic manner in which he dismisses the idea of women working. His views are a virtual echo of third reich policy towards women. "He polled 941 votes representing 2.74% of the total votes cast" It's pretty obvious that the BNP aren't gaining votes, and that their constitutional facade isn't impressing anyone. West's showing in Norwich in fact showed him to be nothing more than one of the monster raving loony fringe candidates. This should be good news, indeed it is. However, it's only a matter of time before Griffin and Co realise they're not going to get anywhere via the democratic process. That I think is when they'll take the fight back out onto the streets. |
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Subject: RE: BS: So why has the BNP gained votes? From: Joe Offer Date: 25 Jul 09 - 02:22 PM Riginslinger says:
Racists have long used religion as a rationalization of their racism. For that matter, all sorts of oppressors have twisted religion to rationalize their oppression. But at its core, religious belief is altruistic, and is at its essence opposed to oppression. If the BPN uses religion, it is a perversion of religion. -Joe Offer- |
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Subject: RE: BS: So why has the BNP gained votes? From: Peace Date: 25 Jul 09 - 03:21 PM Religion has been used as an excuse for many totalitarian groups. That isn't religion. That's fanatacism. Perversions ofered by people who wish to speak on behalf of God are many, but really they vary only in content, and then only slightly. We see this today with all ultra-orthodox groups, be they BNP, Jewish, Muslim, etc. I am reminded of Dylan's "God said to Abraham kill me a son Abe said man you must be putting me on God said no, Abe said what? God said you can do anything you want Abe, but The next time you see me coming you better run God just pointed with his gun and said That way down highway fifty-one" Not believing in God is a help in this case. BM |
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Subject: RE: BS: So why has the BNP gained votes? From: Riginslinger Date: 25 Jul 09 - 04:16 PM "Riginslinger, I think you're letting your bigotry show." Not bigotry at all, just years and years of observation! |
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Subject: RE: BS: So why has the BNP gained votes? From: Little Hawk Date: 25 Jul 09 - 04:22 PM One disturbing thought occurs to me. The BNP may have gained more votes recently because people on this forum are bellyaching about them so much that it has greatly increased their public profile by gaining them much extra attention! Be afraid. Be very afraid. They are about to take over your entire folk tradition. Check the back of every bodhran for those little swastika markings and prepare to fight them on the beaches, in the wardrobes, on the street, and in the loo! |
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Subject: RE: BS: So why has the BNP gained votes? From: Joe Offer Date: 25 Jul 09 - 04:30 PM So, Riginslinger, how is your generalization about religious people any different from the anti-immigrant generalizations coming from the BNP? When you make wide-reaching statements against the members of any group, where's the justice in that? Certainly, what you say can apply to some religious people - and believe it or not, some non-religious people use those same tactics of segregation and division. In opposing bigotry, we must be careful not to become bigots ourselves. -Joe Offer- |
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Subject: RE: BS: So why has the BNP gained votes? From: Peace Date: 25 Jul 09 - 04:54 PM "One disturbing thought occurs to me. The BNP may have gained more votes recently because people on this forum are bellyaching about them so much that it has greatly increased their public profile by gaining them much extra attention!" Ten bucks says that's bull, LH. People here stop posting and that ten bucks says "GUESTS" from the BNP come 'round and keep refreshing the thread. That kind of reasoning is waaaay beneath your abilities, imo. |
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Subject: RE: BS: So why has the BNP gained votes? From: Little Hawk Date: 25 Jul 09 - 06:31 PM I was joking. Anyway, there are a great many things that are beneath my abilities. Wrestling alligators, for example. I'm no good at all when it comes to that. Nor can I bench press 150 pounds or play the banjo half decently. |
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Subject: RE: BS: So why has the BNP gained votes? From: Peace Date: 25 Jul 09 - 06:35 PM My apologies. Some idiot was thinking that way recently and I was concerned it was spreading. |
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Subject: RE: BS: So why has the BNP gained votes? From: Riginslinger Date: 25 Jul 09 - 08:11 PM "So, Riginslinger, how is your generalization about religious people any different from the anti-immigrant generalizations coming from the BNP?" I guess I wasn't thinking about religious people as much as religious dogma and institutions. I would agree, it's better to avoid generalizations. |
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Subject: RE: BS: So why has the BNP gained votes? From: Joe Offer Date: 25 Jul 09 - 10:08 PM I get frustrated with the institutions, too. Trouble is, it seems the same with every institution. It's the idiots who get the power. I think the world is divided into two kinds of people - those who believe in structure and doctrines and ideologies and rules, and those who believe in people and in common sense. You can guess what kind I class the BNP in. For them, ideology is all-important. People aren't. -Joe- |
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Subject: RE: BS: So why has the BNP gained votes? From: Fred McCormick Date: 26 Jul 09 - 09:43 AM Little Hawk. "One disturbing thought occurs to me. The BNP may have gained more votes recently because people on this forum are bellyaching about them so much that it has greatly increased their public profile by gaining them much extra attention!" They haven't gained votes. That's the whole point. In the EU elections, the BNP vote actually declined. In the Norwich north by-election, their loony christian candidate polled less than 3% of the votes. This despite the fact that we're in a very bad recession, there is massive disenchantment with the centre parties, and there is a lot of very understandable concern about British jobs going to foreign workers. All these are things which the far right has traditionally festered on. Yet the electorate continues to reject the BNP. Why? One obvious answer is that anti-fascists continue to expose the BNP for the nazi scum that they are. (And just in case anyone misunderstands me, I don't buy into that argument about foreign workers destroying British jobs. Foreign workers generate jobs and they are an asset to the economy. One day, when the world has grown up a little, and national boundaries have been shown up for the shibboleths they really are, there will be peace in the world, and people will be able to move wherever they want to move.) |
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Subject: RE: BS: So why has the BNP gained votes? From: Peace Date: 26 Jul 09 - 09:47 AM LH says he posted that remark as a joke, fyi. |
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Subject: RE: BS: So why has the BNP gained votes? From: Fred McCormick Date: 26 Jul 09 - 10:08 AM Peace. Quite possibly. But don't forget that people are apt to accuse us of talking the problem up. If the election results are anything to go by, we're doing quite opposite. |
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Subject: RE: BS: So why has the BNP gained votes? From: Peace Date: 26 Jul 09 - 10:16 AM I agree with you. |
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Subject: RE: BS: So why has the BNP gained votes? From: Peace Date: 26 Jul 09 - 10:21 AM Of course, the BNP has learned well from Hitler's group. Tell the lie often enough and people start to accept it as fact. It would be neat to have the BNP membership and cross-reference the names to criminal records. And publish that, lots. I'm working on that now. |
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Subject: RE: BS: So why has the BNP gained votes? From: Emma B Date: 26 Jul 09 - 11:04 AM A party of convictions |
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Subject: RE: BS: So why has the BNP gained votes? From: Fred McCormick Date: 26 Jul 09 - 11:15 AM Peace. "Tell the lie often enough and people start to accept it as fact" From Polish air force pilots to the "truth" about the Stephen Lawrence murder, to holocaust denial, to massive distortions of just about everything it says in the Koran, to phoney biologists and phoney reverends, the BNP couldn't tell the truth if someone twisted its arm up its back. No, the world's heaviest tome isn't the Encyclopaedia Brittanica. It's the list of lies which the BNP has tried to foist on the British public. |
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Subject: RE: BS: So why has the BNP gained votes? From: Riginslinger Date: 26 Jul 09 - 01:26 PM The one truth in it all, however, is the larger the immigrant community becomes, the numbers of native Brits against them will grow. So time is on the side of the BNP. |
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Subject: RE: BS: So why has the BNP gained votes? From: Little Hawk Date: 26 Jul 09 - 01:44 PM You always get a reactionary backlash when there's a big influx of immigrants into a society. Look at what happened in North America when the Irish were pouring in during the potatoe famine. They were caricatured as apes in American newspapers, and were often beaten up and terrorized by "Native American" gangs, as shown in the movie "Gangs of New York". The Irish reacted by forming their own violent gangs. And look at what's happening in the USA right now with concerns about the large numbers of Hispanics who are coming into the USA. Large scale immigration always provides an opportunity for reactionaries and extremists to get the native population in a country stirred up against foreigners...for the usual simple reasons: they feel that their jobs and their culture are being threatened. So, yes, as long as immigration levels to the UK stay high, the BNP will profit by getting more support from native Britons who are afraid of change. **** The one thing that could cure all this divisive nonsense would be if: - Economic advantages and social freedoms were fairly much equalized all around the globe...and then people wouldn't feel the pressing NEED to emigrate to other countries, would they? They'd mostly be quite happy to stay where they were. This, however, would require the human race to get way beyond their present state of self-aggrandizing and competitive awareness...needless to say. ;-) I don't expect it to happen anytime soon. But that doesn't mean it can never happen. I think the ultimate destiny of this planet has to be a unified and prosperous human society....or a complete collapse of human civilization and a massive die-off of our species. Either way, the planet will definitely survive, but we may not. I hope humanity makes the intelligent choice between those alternatives. |
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Subject: RE: BS: So why has the BNP gained votes? From: Peace Date: 26 Jul 09 - 01:46 PM I still think the rabbits should be blamed. |
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Subject: RE: BS: So why has the BNP gained votes? From: Little Hawk Date: 26 Jul 09 - 01:52 PM For what? The missing "cawwots"? |
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Subject: RE: BS: So why has the BNP gained votes? From: Peace Date: 26 Jul 09 - 02:12 PM Nope. For the UK's difficulties. And Canada's and the US's, et.al. |
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Subject: RE: BS: So why has the BNP gained votes? From: Little Hawk Date: 26 Jul 09 - 02:40 PM Okay... But which rabbits? |
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Subject: RE: BS: So why has the BNP gained votes? From: TheSnail Date: 26 Jul 09 - 03:15 PM Excuse me asking but has this thread been taken over by North Americans talking rubbish? Is this what you wanted to achieve by closing down the Folk Against Fascism thread, Joe? |
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Subject: RE: BS: So why has the BNP gained votes? From: Lox Date: 26 Jul 09 - 03:32 PM Hey Rig While we're on the subject of religion being responsible for division and killing etc ... a favourite drum for aethists to bang ... ... how many religious people died as a result of the imposition of an aetheist ideology in China during the cultural revolution and in the USSR during the purges? As for your comments about immigrants and immigration, you are talking utter bollocks. In reality, places where there are large numbers of immigrants change culturallly and people get used to each other. I grew up in Hong Kong and now I live in London, so I have been at the centre of the melting pot all my life. In other words, I know what I'm talking about. |
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Subject: RE: BS: So why has the BNP gained votes? From: Peace Date: 26 Jul 09 - 03:41 PM It's not rubbish, Snail--except in your head. We SHOULD blame the rabbits. Why the rabbits? Good question. Why the immigrants? You want to say what you want to say, Snail, then fuckin' do so. But quit your whinging. OK? |
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Subject: RE: BS: So why has the BNP gained votes? From: Peace Date: 26 Jul 09 - 03:54 PM PS, Snail. ANY time we talk BNP we're talking rubbish. However, I will ask all Canucks to check with you before they post. Would that help? |
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Subject: RE: BS: So why has the BNP gained votes? From: Richard Bridge Date: 26 Jul 09 - 04:21 PM Actually, this is an important topic (albeit based on a false premise) and I don't think it is being treated with the importance it deserves. Snail, I agree with you. The fact that people as vile and loathsome as the BNP can get any sort of electoral seat indicates a deep problem with our democracy. |