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BS: Wow! Bullfighting on Horseback
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Subject: BS: Wow! Bullfighting on Horseback From: Ebbie Date: 12 Aug 09 - 11:43 PM Maybe I've insulated myself from this kind of thing but until the video called 'Pablo.wmv' I'd never seen a bullfight from horseback. I grew up with horses but the horse is absolutely amazing. Not only does he step sideways he does it at speed. Not only is he responsive to what his rider is doing, he is a full participant in the action. He knows exactly what he's doing and the danger he is in. Don't get me wrong- I would never go to a bullfight - or a cockfight or a pit fight or anything of the sort - but I am so impressed with this horse. I am frequently instinctively for the underdog - in this case, the bull - but my heart was in my mouth for fear the horse would fail to get away or would fall down or end in any of a number of disasters. I don't have an URL for this - it came to me via email- but if I wanted to see it I would Google it under 'pablo.wmv' and see what came up. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Wow! Bullfighting on Horseback From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies) Date: 13 Aug 09 - 03:34 AM Sounds just great! Sensibly they cut off the bulls horns to make it more entertaining. We have something similar in the UK where they pit a dog against a badger (with a broken leg to ensure fairplay as with the bull V horse). |
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Subject: RE: BS: Wow! Bullfighting on Horseback From: jeddy Date: 13 Aug 09 - 07:30 AM i don't see how anyone can call that sort of thing entertainment!!!! unless they do it naturally for food, watching nature at work is much better. i love it when the bull takes a few people down with it! i wouldn't mind so much if they went for a clean kill with very little pain, but they torture the poor beasts first. there are some sick people in the world. take care all jade x x x x |
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Subject: RE: BS: Wow! Bullfighting on Horseback From: Backwoodsman Date: 13 Aug 09 - 07:43 AM It's barbaric and has no place in 21st Century society. Only a neanderthal would find anything remotely 'enjoyable' in it. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Wow! Bullfighting on Horseback From: Backwoodsman Date: 13 Aug 09 - 07:45 AM BTW Crow Sister, not saying you're a neanderthal - I realise you were being sarcastic and/or ironic. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Wow! Bullfighting on Horseback From: Paco Rabanne Date: 13 Aug 09 - 10:52 AM Ole! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Wow! Bullfighting on Horseback From: Backwoodsman Date: 13 Aug 09 - 10:55 AM Ted! Stop it! Naughty! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Wow! Bullfighting on Horseback From: Paco Rabanne Date: 13 Aug 09 - 11:02 AM Sorry, I couldn't resist. I have seen it for myself in Spain. I have also seen a lot of cock fights and horrendous dog fights too in the south. What the hell can you do? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Wow! Bullfighting on Horseback From: Ebbie Date: 13 Aug 09 - 11:31 AM Well, speaking as a Neanderthal, let me point out to you enlightened beings that you missed my whole point. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Wow! Bullfighting on Horseback From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies) Date: 13 Aug 09 - 11:42 AM I think I got your 'point'? They clearly train the horses they use in their blood sports very well, thus you were impressed by it's ability in evading being harmed when pitted against another animal, and you found that exciting. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Wow! Bullfighting on Horseback From: Ebbie Date: 13 Aug 09 - 11:47 AM |
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Subject: RE: BS: Wow! Bullfighting on Horseback From: maeve Date: 13 Aug 09 - 12:01 PM Your point was clear, Ebbie. Your interest was in the horse's ability. You expressed your dismay about the activity itself. Your 11:47 post above shows that you are gracious as well. maeve |
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Subject: RE: BS: Wow! Bullfighting on Horseback From: Backwoodsman Date: 13 Aug 09 - 12:02 PM Sorry Ebbie, I wasn't suggesting that you're a Neanderthal either - that's just my opinion of anyone who does get off on bullfighting, dog fighting, whatever - I understood your point fine and, like you, I love horses - all animals in fact. Sorry I didn't make that clear in my first post. Pax? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Wow! Bullfighting on Horseback From: maeve Date: 13 Aug 09 - 12:04 PM And another gracious post has appeared; this time from Backwoodsman. maeve |
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Subject: RE: BS: Wow! Bullfighting on Horseback From: Backwoodsman Date: 13 Aug 09 - 12:06 PM Thanks Maeve. I should have read my first post before hitting the 'go' button. Lesson learned. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Wow! Bullfighting on Horseback From: GUEST,Coyote Breath as cookieless as ever Date: 13 Aug 09 - 12:11 PM I once attended a bullfight in Escalon, California. I believe it was on Labor Day. I video taped it. Now to set some of your minds at ease: Escalon is a center of transplanted Portugese culture. The bull fight was done in "the Portugese manner". From horseback. The bull was not killed (just humiliated?)even the placeing of the bandelleros was humane as they were attached to a velcro band strapped to the bull (honest!). The point of the bandelleros is to offset the bull's tendency to favor one side or another when he passes at the matador. The fight was considered over when it became obvious the bull wasn't having anymore of this and quit trying to fight. (At least that is what it seemed to me, perhaps there was something I missed.) The whole spectacle was quite impressive. The costumes where much closer to 17th century style than in Spanish bullfighting. The colors were magnificant and the bull was accorded great respect by the crowd. The matador rode three seperate mounts during the show. He was brought to the US from Portugal by the ranch which held the event. I cannot remember the Ranch's name or the name of the family that owned it. The "plaza de Toros" was authentic in architecture and appearance. The foods sold that evening were authentic, the band was wonderful, playing all the familiar tunes, and was composed of a wide variety of townsfolk from Escalon, some being in their 80's and some mere teenagers. There was a 'halftime' show where a dozen young men (reportedly from the Escalon High School football team) lined up (in single file) to challange a single bull taunting it to rush at them. The bull obliged and the lead "team" member took the full force of the bull's attack the line of men struggled to hold the bull in place and the smallest of them, from the end of the line ran about and grabbed the bull's tail;. At that moment the team scattered for the safety of the barriers and the young fellow had a wild ride around the arena untill he had to let go. I'm sure there could be some injury to the bull in this style of fighting, that I saw nothing obvious isn't necessicerally indicative of what happens during these fights. The velcro and capped (not removed) horns worked to keep any damage to a minimum but did not detract from the awsome spectacle of the evening's events. I have seen many fights from both Mexico and Spain, in the 60's, where the bull is killed. Whatever the attraction of those fights the one I witnessed at Escalon lacked nothing of the drama and what it did lack, the brutal maiming and killing of a frightened animal, wasn't something I missed I can say truthfully. I don't know if the bull ring still stands or if the ranch still puts on fights. Their schedule in the past was Memorial Day, Fourth of July, Labor Day and perhaps one other day. The cost of admission was minimal, the show was primarily that of an ancient aspect of Portugese culture. I have quite a few minutes on super 8 tape (remember that format?)of the show that night. If anyone is interested in a copy I'll try to make one and if they cover the cost (just sending it, not the tape itself) I forward it. CB |
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Subject: RE: BS: Wow! Bullfighting on Horseback From: Art Thieme Date: 13 Aug 09 - 12:42 PM As Lenny Bruce used to say, and I paraphrase: A knowledge of syphilis, and an appreciation of how it works historically, medically and aesthetically -- in it's own context and culture, is not a prescription to contract or enjoy that disease! (Lenny was talking about the value of sex education.) Shades of gray, friends; Ability to see shades of gray is where "choice" and "life" opposites ought go in order to strive to see and hear each others positions! As an appreciator of the art of bullfights, where the bull is killed, and also as one who sees the sadness of a butchery like this, I, personally, can observe the paradox, and be positively enlightened by both. A Tangent: In the standard bullfight in Mexico and in Spain, the pads on the picador's horses are ONLY there to hide the absolutely horrid bloody damage being done to the horse from the eyes of those watching! I must apologise for my use of the bad word bloody to those to whom it is a four-letter-word. Art Thieme |
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Subject: RE: BS: Wow! Bullfighting on Horseback From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 13 Aug 09 - 12:47 PM What have the neanderthals our ancestors probably wiped out got to do with it? This kind of stuff is the kind of stuff that is a speciality of our own species. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Wow! Bullfighting on Horseback From: Smokey. Date: 13 Aug 09 - 04:28 PM Blood sports and any other cruelty to animals, especially for entertainment, makes me ashamed of my own species. It makes obvious that our so-called 'civilisation' is nothing but a very thin veneer. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Wow! Bullfighting on Horseback From: Lonesome EJ Date: 13 Aug 09 - 06:53 PM Bullfighting is ritual slaughter, with antecedents going back much farther than our current convention of seeing animals as sensitive creatures with as much right to life as any human. Its roots likely lay in sacrifice to vengeful and fickle gods, sacrifice that once may have involved human victims. The participants are as colorfully costumed and practiced in their ritual as any priests. It is certainly a ritual that is unfair to its victim, for its intent is not fair play, its intent is the sacrifice. But make no mistake in thinking that the chief priest, the Toreador, participates in this ritual in a symbolic and safe manner. His body is the target that entices the bull, and only by his skill is he himself preserved from the deadly horns. The killing is done by him, and the blood of the sacrifice is upon his hands. I believe the killing is done, not to taunt or toy with the beast, but through battle and with honor to the spirit of the creature. To watch the bull's head droop, his shoulders slump above bent legs, is to witness the mortality, face-to-face, which is the destiny of mortal life. Anyone who witnesses the bizarre, complex combination of pomp, beauty, ritual, and slaughter that is a bullfight in a Spanish ring will feel stirred to the soul. Whether stirred by horror, wonder, anger, excitement, nausea, exultation, or some potent concoction of all of these things, is for he who witnesses the spectacle to sort out for himself. Hemmingway saw the bullfight as a form of mortal art, in which the Toreador is the artist. And he saw bullfighting as the most intense of all arts, since it is the only one in which the artist risks his life. I can see his point. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Wow! Bullfighting on Horseback From: Art Thieme Date: 13 Aug 09 - 07:45 PM EJ, Well stated. Art |
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Subject: RE: BS: Wow! Bullfighting on Horseback From: Smokey. Date: 13 Aug 09 - 07:46 PM Art my arse - seldom have I heard such utter bollocks. It's mainly done to put sick tourists' bums on seats nowadays. A barbaric practice that should be stamped out. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Wow! Bullfighting on Horseback From: jeddy Date: 13 Aug 09 - 08:04 PM my farourite books are about people in the ice age. it goes into great detail about the hunting and killing and butchery of animals. i am no prude when it comes to my food source. if it was about hunting the beast down with two or three people with one spear each and the bull had its horns in a natural state it would seem to be a fairer fight. i can appreiciate someones skill. but when it comes to doing it for money and tourists i cannot condone it. i can't imagine why or how anyone could. the training of the horse is a different matter but still i cannot applaud it, knowing what damage will be done to it. but then the same can be said for the old war horses of ye olden days. take care all jade x x x x |
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Subject: RE: BS: Wow! Bullfighting on Horseback From: Ebbie Date: 13 Aug 09 - 08:10 PM Smokey, thanks for the only (inadvertent) smile you've given me in this thread. "Art"? That is Art Thieme's name, you ninny. :) |
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Subject: RE: BS: Wow! Bullfighting on Horseback From: Smokey. Date: 13 Aug 09 - 08:19 PM I know.. we cross-posted - I was referring to 'a mortal art' in the previous post.. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Wow! Bullfighting on Horseback From: Q (Frank Staplin) Date: 13 Aug 09 - 08:44 PM Brief description of Portuguese bull fights, Lusitanian horses, here: Bullfighting |
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Subject: RE: BS: Wow! Bullfighting on Horseback From: Backwoodsman Date: 14 Aug 09 - 03:14 AM It's especially galling given that we are governed by this lumbering beast we know as the EU, which lays down regulations about issues such as how much curvature is permitted in a banana sold in shops in its member-states, and it criminalises a parent who smacks their errant child, yet it continues to permit the ritual torture and murder of a beautiful creature carried out for no better reason than 'entertainment'. And thank you, Kevin, for pointing out that Neanderthals are nothing to do with bullfighting. Of course I knew that. I used the word 'Neanderthal' as a metaphor for the kind of person who might take delight in watching a creature being tortured and murdered. But of course you knew that too. :-) |
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Subject: RE: BS: Wow! Bullfighting on Horseback From: Art Thieme Date: 14 Aug 09 - 04:21 AM Love to you all as well. A. Thieme |
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Subject: RE: BS: Wow! Bullfighting on Horseback From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 14 Aug 09 - 07:53 AM I get uneasy at the easy assumption that cruelty as entertainment and so forth is primitive, whereas the truth is that it's something that is at least as likely to arise in highly civilised societies. That matters because it puts us off our guard. It should never be forgotten that the Germany which gave rise to Hitlerism was at the forefront of European civilisation. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Wow! Bullfighting on Horseback From: Backwoodsman Date: 14 Aug 09 - 09:18 AM Agreed, Kevin, but I believe that cruelty draws out of us an instinct which has primitive roots, it harks back to times when we were not so enlightened. Sadly, although many (most?) of us are able to control or suppress those instincts at least most of the time, some are still happy to indulge them. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Wow! Bullfighting on Horseback From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 14 Aug 09 - 10:01 AM I'm inclined to think that it's at least as likely to be the other way round, with societies growing into cruelty rather than the other way round. Brutality may be primitive, but torture is sophisticated, and that especially goes for torture as entertainment. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Wow! Bullfighting on Horseback From: Backwoodsman Date: 14 Aug 09 - 02:57 PM Fair point. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Wow! Bullfighting on Horseback From: frogprince Date: 14 Aug 09 - 03:31 PM But neither drawing and quartering or stretching on the rack has been generally accepted for quite a while. No one would (openly, at least) stage an old style gladiator match, but "extreme fighting" matches are a thinly disguised substitute. If I'm gettin any point made, it would just be that the picture is complex and ambiguous. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Wow! Bullfighting on Horseback From: gnu Date: 14 Aug 09 - 03:43 PM Froggy... "extreme fighting".... I cannot comprehend how such garbage is allowed to happen. Boxing is bad enough, but this sickness is very disturbing. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Wow! Bullfighting on Horseback From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 14 Aug 09 - 04:07 PM I fully expect that contests in which people kill and maim each other will become part of the entertainment industry - if it hasn't already happened. True enough, hanging drawing and quartering as a method of exucation may be outmoded, and the rack wasn't one of the mainstream torture methods authorised by the last White House. Fashions change and we do things differently - but the essential reality doesn't change that much. The societies in which hanging drawing and quartering and the rack were introduced, as modern innovations of the day, were in no sense "primitive", they were highly dveeloped, and in artistic and cultural terms, peak civilisations, with which we compare pretty poorly. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Wow! Bullfighting on Horseback From: Gulliver Date: 14 Aug 09 - 09:06 PM What awful feedback on this thread - with contributors glorying in the torturing to death of an beast. I suppose Hemmingway had something to do with this, but he topped himself as soon as he reached the age of 60. Maybe Art and EJ should consider the same. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Wow! Bullfighting on Horseback From: Ebbie Date: 14 Aug 09 - 09:23 PM Gulliver, nasty. I suppose you are of the persuasion that "pets are people too"? Don't mistake me. I do not willingly tolerate any cruelty to any animals (How do you feel about fishing? How about spearing the worm?) but I recognize traditional approaches to various subjects. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Wow! Bullfighting on Horseback From: Smokey. Date: 14 Aug 09 - 09:54 PM Personally I don't think fishing for sport is any better than bullfighting, although there's something slightly comical about man pitting his wits against a fish.. especially when the fish proves superior. Worm spearing is a new one to me though, it sounds quite difficult. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Wow! Bullfighting on Horseback From: Ebbie Date: 14 Aug 09 - 10:29 PM Smokey, you must not have grown up the way I did. Hint: Worm spearing is not frog gigging. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Wow! Bullfighting on Horseback From: Smokey. Date: 14 Aug 09 - 11:02 PM I heard a frog giggling once. Ah.. those were the days. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Wow! Bullfighting on Horseback From: frogprince Date: 14 Aug 09 - 11:16 PM Good grief, Ebbie; what sort of person are you? How can you defend the practice of shoving a barbed hook up a poor little defenseless creatures arse?!!! (Now watch someone actually take that as a serious response). Gulliver reminds me way too much of someone who wrote into our local paper years ago, branding all hunters as very sick people, and ending with "I hope they all shoot themselves and die in pools of their own blood". |
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Subject: RE: BS: Wow! Bullfighting on Horseback From: Smokey. Date: 15 Aug 09 - 01:10 AM Or they could perhaps hunt each other :-) |
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Subject: RE: BS: Wow! Bullfighting on Horseback From: open mike Date: 15 Aug 09 - 01:26 AM can someone post the URL of the original video that started this thread i have a video called pablo.wmv on you tube , but it is not horses or bulls, and is in unknown language (does anyone know which language?) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PicjS826pDo |
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Subject: RE: BS: Wow! Bullfighting on Horseback From: Ebbie Date: 15 Aug 09 - 02:33 AM Open Mike, I haven't found an URL- as I said, it came to me via email. I too found 'pablo.wmv' but it didn't take me there. Incidentally since the vitriol has calmed down a bit I'd like to say that the bull in the video is not what I have watched. I'd be happier just watching the marvelous horse. I've often seen cow ponies use extraordinary sense and display wonderful footwork but I've never seen anything like this horse. And I have seen Lipizanners in action. This horse is catlike in his movements. He once even leapt sideways perhaps six feet. I have an idea. I'll go see if I can scare up the video going through a different door. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Wow! Bullfighting on Horseback From: Ebbie Date: 15 Aug 09 - 02:45 AM Nope. This is all I have. 'Pablo.wmv (7519KB)' |
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Subject: RE: BS: Wow! Bullfighting on Horseback From: Ebbie Date: 16 Aug 09 - 04:07 PM Open Mike, (and others) if you really want to see the video I'm talking about, send me your email address by PM and I'll forward it to you. I've sent it to two of my brothers now and they had no problem opening it. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Wow! Bullfighting on Horseback From: Art Thieme Date: 16 Aug 09 - 06:09 PM American Bullfighter Barnaby Conrad (from Brooklyn) hosted a program of bullfights on Chicago TV several decades ago. It was on once a week for a few years. That was before El Cordobes hippyfied bullfights. There were no kills--and it was fascinating. --- And no, I have no plans to harm myself. Art |
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Subject: RE: BS: Wow! Bullfighting on Horseback From: Ebbie Date: 16 Aug 09 - 08:04 PM Incidentally, just in case someone pictures me sitting here reveling in a bath of bull blood, in the video I refer to, the action ends before anything is killed. It is possible that it is not a death-at-the-end bout. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Wow! Bullfighting on Horseback From: Desert Dancer Date: 23 Aug 09 - 03:26 PM Ebbie, I'm just today catching PBS Nature's, "Horse and Rider". Haven't seen your video, but the segment in this program about cutting horses looks like it must involve alot of the same skills in the horse. It is an amazing dance. The program aired last week (I'm seeing the noon, Sunday re-broadcast on our station), so you might not be able to catch it until rerun season, unless you get your rebroadcasts at a different time of day in Juneau... Here's the result of a Google video search for "cutting horse". |
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Subject: RE: BS: Wow! Bullfighting on Horseback From: Ebbie Date: 23 Aug 09 - 04:31 PM Becky, I'm familiar with cutting horses. I agree they are amazing but I've never seen anything like the horse in the bullfighting video. This horse actually leaps sideways with all four feet off the ground. No cutting horse that I've seen will do that- they do however, spin on two feet. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Wow! Bullfighting on Horseback From: gnu Date: 23 Aug 09 - 04:38 PM "... leaps sideways with all four feet off the ground." Oh, now THAT I gotta see. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Wow! Bullfighting on Horseback From: Ebbie Date: 23 Aug 09 - 04:42 PM PM me your email address, Gary, and I'll forward it to you. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Wow! Bullfighting on Horseback From: gnu Date: 23 Aug 09 - 04:45 PM I tried searching but everything I get is just gore at You Tube... well, a lot of it. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Wow! Bullfighting on Horseback From: Ebbie Date: 23 Aug 09 - 06:24 PM Send me your email address again, Gary, and I'll forward it to you. Eb |
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Subject: RE: BS: Wow! Bullfighting on Horseback From: Desert Dancer Date: 24 Aug 09 - 02:13 AM Googling to learn more about Portuguese bullfighting, I found the full original video on YouTube. The rider is Pablo Hermoso de Mendoza, the horse is Merlin. There is some of the training here (with a person charging with an "artificial" bull), and more of just the horse and rider outside the ring. The horse's athleticism is amazing. It's a very disturbing thing to watch the bullfight, though. Here's a longer (10 minute) video of bullfighting, with de Mendoza on additional horses: click. I watched these with the sound off. ~ Becky in Tucson |
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Subject: RE: BS: Wow! Bullfighting on Horseback From: Desert Dancer Date: 24 Aug 09 - 02:28 AM One last thought: the PBS Nature program featured cutting horses, dressage, and polo. These bullfighting horses combine aspects of all three... |
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Subject: RE: BS: Wow! Bullfighting on Horseback From: GREEN WELLIES Date: 24 Aug 09 - 05:18 AM This practice is utterly disgusting. These horses have their vocal cords operated on so that they are unable to make any sound when gored. Its a small operation which is virturally undetectable to the untrained eye. Anyone who supports this activity is as sick as the people who organise it. If you want to see horses moving gracefully watch dressage. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Wow! Bullfighting on Horseback From: Desert Dancer Date: 24 Aug 09 - 09:41 AM The movements of dressage originated with training for war. The bullring also puts the movements in a more "practical" context -- although it is an obvious performance as well. It is interesting to see -- once -- but I definitely would rather that these were historical documents, and not a continuing practice. I did read that in addition to cutting the horse's vocal cords, they have their ears either plugged or deafened with drugs for the ring. I wonder if there are differences in the care of the horses between the Spanish style and the Portuguese style of bullfighting. The Spanish picadores (the ones with the padding on the horses nowadays) are not featured in the same way. The Portuguese horse and rider must have a trusting relationship with one another. Most of the reports seem to refer to Spanish bullfighting. ~ Becky in Tucson |
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Subject: RE: BS: Wow! Bullfighting on Horseback From: GUEST,The Bull Date: 25 Aug 09 - 08:31 PM Here, at least once, the bull gets a chance at this bunch of dolled-up pansies (I've never seen a more ridiculous-looking, cowardly group of ignoramouses - shame on the lot of them): http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ic4P2hq5IEQ |
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Subject: RE: BS: Wow! Bullfighting on Horseback From: jeddy Date: 25 Aug 09 - 09:07 PM i am tempted to click the links given. but i shall not because they will horrify me and upset me. how anyone can think that pitting anything against something just for the hell of it,is entertaining is beyond me. jade x x |
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Subject: RE: BS: Wow! Bullfighting on Horseback From: Smokey. Date: 25 Aug 09 - 09:21 PM It should be beyond humanity, but sadly it's not. We have a long way to go before our species learns not to be sadistic monkeys, and that it is fundamentally wrong to mutilate and kill for fun. |
