BS: US Health Care Reform

Subject: RE: BS: US Health Care Reform
From: Don Firth
Date: 30 Sep 09 - 02:18 PM

Doug, there are many services that you undoubtedly use and take for granted which, by your lights, are socialistic. If your house catches fire, you can call your local fire department and they will come and put the fire out. No charge to you. Paid for by taxes. If someone is breaking into your house, you can call the local police department and they will send the police. No charge to you. Paid for by taxes. The street in front of your house was built and maintained through taxes. If you want to drive from Phoenix to Los Angeles and back, you can do so on interstate highways, built and paid for by taxes. One could easily build a substantial list of the things you (and all of us) use that are government mandated and administered and are paid for in part or in full by taxes.

This is often the most efficient and least expensive way of doing these things.

In fact, all of what most people would consider "essential services" are government mandated and administered and paid for by the taxpayers. You may not use some of these facilities and services that your taxes pay for. You may have never needed the fire department or the police department and you may have no reason or desire to visit Los Angeles;   but—these facilities and services are there should you need them or want to make use of them.

Good health care is an essential service. So essential that you could die without swift medical treatment. Or that you could suffer grievously for years from some condition that could by cured or at least alleviated with proper medical treatment. These desperately needed services are often denied to people unless they are willing to go so deeply into debt that they will never be able to dig themselves out. Literally, "your money or your life!"

Or they must pay an egregiously large share of their incomes—if, indeed, they have incomes, as many people in these bad economic times do not—for health insurance. And even then, you may not be covered. People on the inside of insurance companies (who have recently grown a conscience) have reported much about the obscene profits the companies are making, and how the companies' clients are often denied life saving services because the company gropes around to come up with some excuse not to pay, such as a "pre-existing condition."

This is just downright criminal. In no other modern, wealthy, industrialized, supposedly civilized country is this barbarism allowed to happen.

And people who are wealthy enough to have insurance coverage, or, as in your case, Doug, are covered by Medicare and the VA (both government run agencies, paid for by taxes) cavalierly, thoughtlessly, and selfishly object to expanding this essential service to those who are in need of it because you see it as "socialism."

For shame, Doug! Shame on all of you who are so callous that you would deny your fellow citizens this much needed program because you are so deathly afraid of "socialism," when you already benefit greatly by services that are just as "socialistic" as national health service would be in this country.

An examination of world health statistics, such thing as life expectancy and infant mortality, the United States is way behind, even behind some "third world" countries.

Reagan's "City on the Hill?" That other countries look up to as an example?

I don't think so.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: US Health Care Reform
From: Don Firth
Date: 30 Sep 09 - 02:32 PM

By the way, Doug, I'm not a socialist. But I'm not afraid of the word, either.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: US Health Care Reform
From: heric
Date: 30 Sep 09 - 02:34 PM

Thank you, Don. If only you'd applied as a speechwriter a year ago.



(Small point: I recall, from long ago, and can't look it up just now, reading that the mortality and infant survival stats are greatly skewed because the US saves much smaller newborns, and uses a different measure for survival stats.)

Subject: RE: BS: US Health Care Reform
From: CarolC
Date: 30 Sep 09 - 02:57 PM

I had an interesting discussion with someone recently who didn't believe in the government running any programs other than the ones specifically mentioned in the Constitution (roads, postal service, military) because that would be socialism. I told him that being mentioned in the Constitution did not make them not socialism. It just made the Constitution a socialist document.

I pointed out that the reason the people who wrote the Constitution put those in there, is because they determined that it would be more efficient for the government to handle those programs rather than leaving it to the market to do it. Which means that our founding fathers understood that socialism (even though they didn't have the word "socialism" back then) is more efficient than the market under some circumstances. In the case of the services mentioned in the Constitution, they are services that are crucial to the wellbeing of the country and its citizens. Health care is another one of those services that is crucial to the wellbeing of the country and its citizens, and is less efficient when controlled by the market.

Subject: RE: BS: US Health Care Reform
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 30 Sep 09 - 05:13 PM

Where does your Constitution say anything against socialism?

Subject: RE: BS: US Health Care Reform
From: CarolC
Date: 30 Sep 09 - 05:26 PM

I don't think the term "socialism" was even coined yet when the Constitution was written, and I don't think any one had defined the concept yet, either. So the Constitution really couldn't have said anything against it. But since the Constitution includes things that are socialist in nature, we can say that it supports socialism as a concept.

Subject: RE: BS: US Health Care Reform
From: Don Firth
Date: 30 Sep 09 - 06:19 PM

Too many of our less enlightened ones confuse socialism with communism and do a McCarthy-type knee-jerk when something—no matter how beneficial—strikes them as socialistic. Of course, sliding right by the fact that they undoubtedly got a free education in a public school supported by the taxpayers.

There is nothing incompatible about democracy and socialism. In fact, the two are highly compatible. Far more compatible than democracy and capitalism, wherein the major decisions are made by corporate heads, either directly, or by bribing Congress (it's called "lobbying," and for some peculiar reason, it's legal).

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: US Health Care Reform
From: GUEST,heric
Date: 30 Sep 09 - 06:25 PM

Telling people to go get some insurance so we can stop socializing their losses is pretty far from socialism. Try putting the health care providers on government payrolls and then you'd have something to talk about.

Subject: RE: BS: US Health Care Reform
From: Don Firth
Date: 30 Sep 09 - 06:28 PM

Under our present system, I would be more worried about fascism than socialism.

"Fascism should more appropriately be called Corporatism, because it is a merger of state and corporate power."
                                                                                                                                          —Benito Mussolini

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: US Health Care Reform
From: CarolC
Date: 30 Sep 09 - 08:01 PM

A further parallel with fascism is the teabagger and 9/12 movements that are being used by the corporatocracy to try to kill health care reform. This is what Trotsky had to say about Fascism...

"(In Italy) it is a plebeian movement in origin, directed and financed by big capitalist powers".

Which sure looks like the corporate directed and financed populist movements we see today protesting against health care reform. Like this, for instance...

http://thinkprogress.org/2009/09/12/armey-teapartypatriots/

Subject: RE: BS: US Health Care Reform
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 30 Sep 09 - 08:30 PM

There is nothing incompatible between democracyb and communism for that matter - in fact a viable communist society cannot exist and flourish in the absence of democracy, as has been demonstrated over the past couple of generations.

Capitalism, on the other hand can manage pretty well in totalitarian societies, as is being demonstrated currently in China. Rather better than it can in countries that are democratic (though perhaps "democratish" might be a better word for the word for countries where a majority of voters can be frustrated by a powerful and wealthy minority).

We shouldn't allow ourselves to be fooled by labels.
..........................

But this is drifting away from the issue of health care reform - a more immediate issue which does not have to wait upon reshaping the financial and social system within the United States.

Capitalist societies, socialist societies, communist societies, democratic societies, authotarian societies, totalitarian societies - all of these around the world in one way or another have been able to manage to organise things so that reasonable health care is available to all. The only exception among wealthy or moderately wealthy countries is the United States.

Subject: RE: BS: US Health Care Reform
From: CarolC
Date: 30 Sep 09 - 09:19 PM

Actually, a discussion of socialism does not drift away from the subject of health care reform because one of the big objections that is being promoted as a reason to not adopt the kind of health care reform that we need is because some people consider it to be "socialist" and they also consider socialism to be the work of the devil. We can't just ignore that mindset, since it is being used so effectively to block meaningful health care reform. It has to be addressed.

Subject: RE: BS: US Health Care Reform
From: Riginslinger
Date: 01 Oct 09 - 12:16 AM

You make a good point, Carol. I've never considered socialism to be the work of the devil--if, in fact there was such a thing as a devil.

Subject: RE: BS: US Health Care Reform
From: CarolC
Date: 01 Oct 09 - 12:27 AM

If people who currently have private health insurance think this couldn't happen to them, they should think again...

http://www.tampabay.com/video/?bcpid=2441023001&bctid=42043731001

Subject: RE: BS: US Health Care Reform
From: Don Firth
Date: 01 Oct 09 - 01:18 PM

Just watched the video that Carol posted right above.

I should probably take a bit of time to cool down before posting anything, but what pops into my mind are two phrases:

Hell is not hot enough!

and

The measure of a society is how it treats its most vulnerable members.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: US Health Care Reform
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 01 Oct 09 - 01:35 PM

What's the betting that there will be no comment whatsoever on that video from any of our members who are against health care reform?

Subject: RE: BS: US Health Care Reform
From: Greg F.
Date: 01 Oct 09 - 09:23 PM

I'm sure Doug won't be able to help posting something pithy and germaine like "the sky is falling" or something equally clever.

Subject: RE: BS: US Health Care Reform
From: Don Firth
Date: 01 Oct 09 - 10:24 PM

Well, in this country, if you happen to have cancer, heart disease, or any one of a number of other diseases—and no health insurance—the sky bloody well IS falling!

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: US Health Care Reform
From: CarolC
Date: 01 Oct 09 - 10:44 PM

Same with people who have catastrophic illnesses, and insurance that refuses to cover their illnesses.

Subject: RE: BS: US Health Care Reform
From: heric
Date: 04 Oct 09 - 01:51 AM

looks like the Baucus snowball has the most inertia rolling into the bottom of the ravine, towards the fence, and still picking up mass.
Wahington Post

Subject: RE: BS: US Health Care Reform
From: Lox
Date: 04 Oct 09 - 08:15 AM

Great post Carol.

I saw this today and while not striclty relevant it is within the same context.

California Uber Alles

Subject: RE: BS: US Health Care Reform
From: Riginslinger
Date: 04 Oct 09 - 12:20 PM

California's problems can be summed up in one word illegal-immigration.
                The piece says California is losing population, but the population they're losing are the people who would be most able to fix things if they'd stayed. They did nothing about run away illegal-immigration for so long, they can no longer aford to pay the bills for the poor, many of whom should not even be there.

Subject: RE: BS: US Health Care Reform
From: Greg F.
Date: 04 Oct 09 - 12:54 PM

Wrong word. The two words you really want are "Ronald Reagan".

Subject: RE: BS: US Health Care Reform
From: Riginslinger
Date: 04 Oct 09 - 07:39 PM

Well, I wouldn't really argue with that either, Greg. He did a lot of damage too.

Subject: RE: BS: US Health Care Reform
From: heric
Date: 04 Oct 09 - 09:38 PM

Carol you were right the variability in premiums according to location is enormous:

"[P]remiums on the individual insurance market vary widely by state, according to research by America's Health Insurance Plans. In Massachusetts, the average annual premium for family coverage was $16,897 in 2007. In Wisconsin, it was $3,087."

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=113443100

Subject: RE: BS: US Health Care Reform
From: CarolC
Date: 04 Oct 09 - 10:05 PM

Wow. That's a hell of a difference.

Subject: RE: BS: US Health Care Reform
From: GUEST,number 6
Date: 05 Oct 09 - 08:48 AM

here's something that may be of interest ...

the doctor isn't in

biLL

Subject: RE: BS: US Health Care Reform
From: CarolC
Date: 05 Oct 09 - 09:30 AM

So it's not a doctor shortage, it's a billing number shortage. How tragic. Seems like the New Brunswick government needs to be fired.

Subject: RE: BS: US Health Care Reform
From: GUEST,number 6
Date: 05 Oct 09 - 12:08 PM

Carol .... " Seems like the New Brunswick government needs to be fired"

I agree 100%

biLL

Subject: RE: BS: US Health Care Reform
From: Riginslinger
Date: 05 Oct 09 - 10:14 PM

New Brunswick?

Subject: RE: BS: US Health Care Reform
From: GUEST,number 6
Date: 05 Oct 09 - 10:40 PM

don't worry about it .... no one knows where it is.

Subject: RE: BS: US Health Care Reform
From: CarolC
Date: 05 Oct 09 - 10:48 PM

I've traveled all around New Brunswick. It's a beautiful place. (And my grandfather's from there.) They still need to fire the government, though.

Subject: RE: BS: US Health Care Reform
From: GUEST,number 6
Date: 05 Oct 09 - 10:55 PM

Thank you Carol ... actually it is beautiful ... and most definately we desperatly need to fire the government here ... probably the worst provincial government in all of Canada.

biLL

Subject: RE: BS: US Health Care Reform
From: Stringsinger
Date: 06 Oct 09 - 02:39 PM

The Wyden-Bennett bill is a sell out to the private insurance companies. It's requirement to buy insurance through these privateers is outrageous.

There are models for government backed insurance programs combined with private interests that work for European countries and why not here?

Any intrusion by private insurance companies into health care reform is specious. They've proved their alliances politically and economically.

A "Single Payer" with a liason with private companies would work here effectively.

What's needed is a partial de-privatization of insurance and government regulation. Wyden-Bennett is a "paper tiger". I no longer trust the insurance industry's spokespeople
for legitimate data projections. Single Payer would do the job.

If Single Payer is off the table, it's only because the politicians are beholden to the lobbyists from the insurance companies.   Pure and simple.

Subject: RE: BS: US Health Care Reform
From: DougR
Date: 06 Oct 09 - 03:04 PM

I certainly would agree that Ronald Reagan did not further the liberal cause very much during his eight years in office. I suppose that's why he is so unpopular with liberals.

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: US Health Care Reform
From: Don Firth
Date: 06 Oct 09 - 03:31 PM

Would you rather have the government regulate health insurance companies? Or the health insurance companies regulate the government, as they would very much like to do?

CLICKY

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: US Health Care Reform
From: beardedbruce
Date: 06 Oct 09 - 06:05 PM

Congressional leaders fight against posting bills online
By: Susan Ferrechio
Chief Congressional Correspondent
October 6, 2009   

As Congress lurches closer to a decision on an enormous overhaul of the American health care system, pressure is mounting on legislative leaders to make the final bill available online for citizens to read before a vote.

Lawmakers were given just hours to examine the $789 billion stimulus plan, sweeping climate-change legislation and a $700 billion bailout package before final votes.

While most Americans normally ignore parliamentary detail, with health care looming, voters are suddenly paying attention. The Senate is expected to vote on a health bill in the weeks to come, representing months of work and stretching to hundreds of pages. And as of now, there is no assurance that members of the public, or even the senators themselves, will be given the chance to read the legislation before a vote.

more

Subject: RE: BS: US Health Care Reform
From: CarolC
Date: 06 Oct 09 - 06:15 PM

I'm definitely in favor of posting all proposed and passed legislation online.

Subject: RE: BS: US Health Care Reform
From: beardedbruce
Date: 06 Oct 09 - 06:35 PM

I can agree with you on that, CarolC.

Subject: RE: BS: US Health Care Reform
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 06 Oct 09 - 08:23 PM

What's the betting that there will be no comment whatsoever on that video from any of our members who are against health care reform?(01 Oct 09 - 01:35 PM )

I was right, wasn't I?

Subject: RE: BS: US Health Care Reform
From: CarolC
Date: 06 Oct 09 - 08:25 PM

Yup.

Subject: RE: BS: US Health Care Reform
From: beardedbruce
Date: 06 Oct 09 - 08:27 PM

** I ** am not against health care reform- just THIS particular secret, under the table attempt by the left to force the entire country into their vision of it.

And at the Getaway I had better things to do.

Subject: RE: BS: US Health Care Reform
From: heric
Date: 06 Oct 09 - 10:05 PM

Frank you're not keeping up. Wyden Bennett is long dead. DOA. The insurance companies won anyway. The left is going to pretend they won. The Republicans are going to pretend they won. They're cooking up meat loaf as we speak, with lobbyist-approved ingredients, and we're all going to eat it.

Subject: RE: BS: US Health Care Reform
From: CarolC
Date: 06 Oct 09 - 10:18 PM

I'm going to have to start looking hard for a way to get me and JtS up to Canada to live. I don't see how we'll be able to survive here in the US for very long.

Subject: RE: BS: US Health Care Reform
From: GUEST,TIA
Date: 06 Oct 09 - 10:55 PM

Hmmm.
Wonder what DougR's ten-word pithy comment on McG's link will be.
Maybe "horsepucky?"

Subject: RE: BS: US Health Care Reform
From: heric
Date: 06 Oct 09 - 11:20 PM

What has JtS got a warrant out?

Subject: RE: BS: US Health Care Reform
From: CarolC
Date: 06 Oct 09 - 11:23 PM

I wish I understood that post about the warrant. I know it has to be a joke, but I'm not getting it.

Subject: RE: BS: US Health Care Reform
From: heric
Date: 07 Oct 09 - 09:58 AM

for his arrest. In Canada. I just meant can't you go up any old time?

Subject: RE: BS: US Health Care Reform
From: CarolC
Date: 07 Oct 09 - 01:22 PM

No. We would need to have a way to support ourselves there. JtS could go with no means of support, but he couldn't take me with him unless he could support me or I could support myself. We're not in a position to do that right now. Our means of support is here in the US. But maybe we need to start working on finding a way to change that.

Subject: RE: BS: US Health Care Reform
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 07 Oct 09 - 05:59 PM

Let's face it--any government action that forces you to buy a product without controlling the price of that product is simply a matter of pimping for supplier of that product. Worse, in fact---a pimp doesn't force to to buy.