BS: US Health Care Reform

Subject: RE: BS: US Health Care Reform
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 07 Sep 09 - 06:01 PM

Again, I point out that the first thing that has to settled--regardless of what comes next--is whether or not we want universal affordable health care. The arguments about those hordes of illegal immigrants aren't really relevant to this point (though they well may be if the point is accepted and it becomes a matter of implementation). And, I'd like to point out, that the uninsured, including the undocumented, can currently use emergency room services---one of the most expensive, least effective approaches to health care.

Subject: RE: BS: US Health Care Reform
From: heric
Date: 07 Sep 09 - 06:12 PM

This week "public option" under HR 3200 seems to mean a government run plan taking in all applicants in those states where "affordable insurance," to be defined according to income, can't be found, and where those applicants don't qualify for Medicaid assistance.

Only Obama knows for sure.

Subject: RE: BS: US Health Care Reform
From: artbrooks
Date: 07 Sep 09 - 07:08 PM

Since the House has not reconvened, " 'public option' under HR 3200" means exactly what it meant when it recessed August 4th. Any change is only in the minds of various talking heads.

Subject: RE: BS: US Health Care Reform
From: heric
Date: 08 Sep 09 - 11:28 PM

If Obama gives/gets us nationwide mandatory participation, no pre-existing denials, and no more cancellations or nonrenewals for health status, that's a big leap forward. A B+ or A- with or without the magic words "Public Option."

With "mandatory participation" a lot of problems will have to work themselves out.

Tomorrow it is - Never has insurance been so exciting!

Subject: RE: BS: US Health Care Reform
From: CarolC
Date: 08 Sep 09 - 11:59 PM

That's a big improvement, but it doesn't address the problem of rising and/or unaffordable premiums and co-pays, and high deductibles, and the rising cost of health care in this country generally.

One of the ways insurance companies prevent people with pre-existing conditions from getting adequate coverage is to jack up the cost of buying insurance so high that such people won't be able to afford it.

The public option at least helps to address these things.

Subject: RE: BS: US Health Care Reform
From: heric
Date: 09 Sep 09 - 12:07 AM

If participation is mandatory and unaffordable - that's what I mean it will have to work itself out. He'll talk about that for sure. Maybe with a public option.

Subject: RE: BS: US Health Care Reform
From: GUEST,beardedbruce
Date: 09 Sep 09 - 12:44 PM

"Boehner: GOP leaders haven't met Obama for health talks since April

By Molly K. Hooper - 09/09/09 11:09 AM ET


The ball is in President Obama's court to reach out to Republicans if he wants a bipartisan bill on healthcare reform, House GOP Leader John Boehner (Ohio) said Monday morning.

Boehner told reporters that the president has not invited House GOP leaders to the White House for meetings on healthcare reform since the end of April.

Earlier this year, GOP leaders sent a letter to the president in May stating that they would like to work with the administration to find "common ground" on healthcare reform.

But the administration responded with a tersely worded letter indicating that they had healthcare reform under control.
"

Subject: RE: BS: US Health Care Reform
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 09 Sep 09 - 12:49 PM

BB-
Oddly enough, I can't seem to find any proposals emanating from the GOP---just attacks.

Subject: RE: BS: US Health Care Reform
From: heric
Date: 09 Sep 09 - 12:51 PM

It would be hard to negotiate seriously with a guy named Boehner.

And even if it wasn't, did the guy not notice the seven(?) Congressional committees working on it, five of which approved stuff? Who's he kidding?

Subject: RE: BS: US Health Care Reform
From: CarolC
Date: 09 Sep 09 - 06:30 PM

Isn't Boehner one of the people who said they wouldn't even vote for a bill that contained the co-op option? That's not bipartisan. What they want is for the Democrats to meet them all the way over on their side. Screw them.

Subject: RE: BS: US Health Care Reform
From: Azizi
Date: 09 Sep 09 - 09:21 PM

I'm a substitute teacher who pays $405.OO a month for health insurance through the Cobra p[an, an option that will end for me next month. After that, I'll join the millions of other people in the United States that have no insurance, and are likely unable to find private health insurance because of pre-existing conditions.

I'm not sure how soon or how well the health care reform plan that President Obama articulated tonight will help me and help others who have far worse health care conditions than me. I'm hoping for the best.

But one thing that I do know-President Obama is one of the best irators the United States and the world, has ever seen. And the end of his epeech was outstanding.

I can see students in elementary, middle, and high school reciting the end of that speech with President Obama's inflections for years, and decades to come.

While I wait for health care experts to evaluate the plan itself, I'don't hesitate to give that speech an A+ for its oratory.

Subject: RE: BS: US Health Care Reform
From: CarolC
Date: 09 Sep 09 - 09:32 PM

I liked what he had to say. His speech worked for me.

Subject: RE: BS: US Health Care Reform
From: Ron Davies
Date: 09 Sep 09 - 09:37 PM

I also saw the speech and was very impressed. He may have revived the chances for reform. I think he overpromised the savings that can be found in "waste, fraud, and abuse" but particularly the illustration of how inter-party co-operation can work, citing McCain, Hatch etc as partners of Ted Kennedy, was very effective. I was also glad he called the "death panel" idea by its name:   a lie. Interesting to see what dear Sarah's reaction will be.

He also defended the "public option" very effectively--but I believe is still open to the "co-op" idea as a way-station. This is good for several reasons, especially since the "public option" has been pilloried by so many crackpots, who are followed by their sheep, that "public option" is now a red flag to huge numbers of people--who don't think, but do vote. But through the co-op approach, which doesn't have the visceral reaction of "public option", the public option will still be reached---which is in fact a main fear of some of the opponents--like the WSJ editorial page.

Subject: RE: BS: US Health Care Reform
From: heric
Date: 09 Sep 09 - 09:57 PM

I heard him say that all insurers would be prohibited from denying care or dropping coverage on the basis of a pre-existing condition, and that they would not be allowed to drop anyone for a chronic or expensive condition. I did not hear him say (but maybe it's in "his plan") that insurers must accept all comers, even with pre-existing conditions or chronic illness. If the people the insurers don't sign up go to the exchange, and the exhange is supposed to be self-sustaining with its own premiums (he did say that I think), their premiums will be huge, will they not?

He made a couple of references to "his plan." Did he release a plan today, or is he about to?

I was delighted and inspired for the first half of his speech, so glad to see him again, but I find his math impenetrable.

Subject: RE: BS: US Health Care Reform
From: Ron Davies
Date: 09 Sep 09 - 10:18 PM

I agree, Heric. #1 mystery is how this reform will pay for itself. I think that unlikely, and a mistake to say it can.

If anybody knows of a government-run health plan, anywhere in the world, which pays for itself with no taxpayer funds, and no funds from elsewhere in the government, let's hear about it.

As I recall, in the UK when I was there visiting, a suggestion to lower the gas (petrol) tax was met with the objection that if you lower the gas tax, hospitals will have to close.

Perhaps UK Mudcatters can confirm or deny this.

Subject: RE: BS: US Health Care Reform
From: CarolC
Date: 09 Sep 09 - 10:24 PM

He said that people who can't get insurance because of pre-existing conditions would be provided with care right away, and he said that that was McCain's idea. I particularly like that part, since that would enable me and Jts to get health care coverage long before the rest of it would kick in three years after the law was signed. I'm not sure what sort of plan they would be provided with, though. Maybe I need to listen to the speech again.

Subject: RE: BS: US Health Care Reform
From: Ron Davies
Date: 09 Sep 09 - 10:28 PM

From my reading, lots of Republicans agree people should not be excluded on the basis of pre-existing conditions.   That will be in any plan passed by Congress, regardless of the fate of the "public option".

Subject: RE: BS: US Health Care Reform
From: Little Hawk
Date: 09 Sep 09 - 10:28 PM

Here's an interesting thing, Don. The Canadian government spends 30% less per capita on our single-payer universal national health care plan than the US government spends at present on American health care. I'm talking about per capita tax dollars spent on health care.

You're paying a lot more in the USA, and getting a lot less for it. Someone needs to look into why that is happening and make the majority of the American public aware of the situation.

Subject: RE: BS: US Health Care Reform
From: Ron Davies
Date: 09 Sep 09 - 10:31 PM

Ah, but LH, does the Canadian plan pay for itself with no taxpayer funds? That appeared to be President Obama's promise tonight for his plan.   And a rash one, I think.

Subject: RE: BS: US Health Care Reform
From: heric
Date: 09 Sep 09 - 10:35 PM

Yeah they did LH and it resulted in Wyden-Bennett - remedy: almost everybody pays for almost everybody and cut out the tangled web. But Obama said tonight that's right-wing, so fuggedabootit eh?

Subject: RE: BS: US Health Care Reform
From: CarolC
Date: 09 Sep 09 - 10:43 PM

We still need the public option if we're not going to regulate the hell out of the insurance industry (and those are the only ways to make the insurance companies behave in good faith). Either one of these is fine by me, though.

Subject: RE: BS: US Health Care Reform
From: Ron Davies
Date: 09 Sep 09 - 10:45 PM

This has already been brought up, but I think deserves repeating. Crux of the problem is that lots of people have been panicked into believing that in a single-payer situation, quality of their personal care will go down--and they will have no other option.   UK illustrates this is not so.   Besides NHS, there is private care. Sometimes by the same MD's. So even in a single-payer system, people can, and do, get care outside that system.

But even though many of the more well-to-do in the UK may use private care, they have no objection to supporting the NHS--which ensures care for all.

That's what it comes down to:   the well-to-do in the US have to be willing, as in the UK, to subsidize care for the rest.

Subject: RE: BS: US Health Care Reform
From: Azizi
Date: 09 Sep 09 - 10:55 PM

I don't think this has ever happened before in a Presidential address to Congress:

Obama heckled by GOP during speech to Congress
(AP) – 1 hour ago

WASHINGTON — The nastiness of August reached from the nation's town halls into the U.S. Capitol on Wednesday as President Barack Obama tried to move his health care plan forward.

South Carolina Republican Rep. Joe Wilson shouted "You lie!" after Obama had talked about illegal immigrants.

It wasn't the only interruption during Obama's speech to a joint session of Congress in the House of Representatives. Earlier, Republicans laughed when Obama acknowledged that there are still significant details to be worked out before a health overhaul can be passed.

Wilson's outburst caused Obama to pause briefly before he went on with his speech. Overhead in the visitors' gallery, first Lady Michelle Obama shook her head from side to side.

http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5gTWB1M9VPOte4M77spW7Z62NsGyQD9AK4ULO0

-snip-

That congressman brought disgrace to himself and to the Republican party that he represents. He should be censured for breaking the Congressional rules of decorum.

Subject: RE: BS: US Health Care Reform
From: heric
Date: 09 Sep 09 - 11:05 PM

Ah but Azizi even the way Obama paused was cool. It's good we know Wilson's name but he just gave Obama another good moment.

Subject: RE: BS: US Health Care Reform
From: CarolC
Date: 09 Sep 09 - 11:06 PM

The rich are already subsidizing the care of those who don't have insurance.

I really liked the look Obama gave that Republican asshole who heckled him. I thought it was very effective. I was kind of shocked when I heard that, and it looked to me like people in the room were shocked, too. I've never heard anyone do anything like that while any president was giving a speech to the Senate and House.

Subject: RE: BS: US Health Care Reform
From: Azizi
Date: 09 Sep 09 - 11:12 PM

Wilson apologizes: 'I let my emotions get the best of me'
Posted: September 9th, 2009 10:23 PM ET

WASHINGTON (CNN) — GOP Rep. Joe Wilson of South Carolina issued a statement Wednesday night apologizing for his outburst during President Obama's speech to Congress:

"This evening I let my emotions get the best of me when listening to the President's remarks regarding the coverage of illegal immigrants in the health care bill. While I disagree with the President's statement, my comments were inappropriate and regrettable. I extend sincere apologies to the President for this lack of civility."

-snip-

As a result of Republican Congressman Joe Wilson's breach of decurum, more than $25,000 was raised in 2 hours for the campaign of Rob Miller, the Democrat who is running against Wilson in the 2010 election. In 2008 Miller ran against Wilson in the heavily Republican district of South Carolina, and lost by only 7% of the votes.

Something tells me that Miller will do much better this time around.

More on this story can be found at http://www.dailykos.com/storyonly/2009/9/9/779555/-Wilson-Apologizes23k-raised-in-2-hours

Subject: RE: BS: US Health Care Reform
From: Azizi
Date: 09 Sep 09 - 11:16 PM

One bit of information that has come out about that heckler was that he called up the White House to apologize directly to President Obama, but ended up speaking to Rahm Emanuel instead.

I'm sure that Congressman Joe Wilson didn't enjoy that conversation one bit.

Subject: RE: BS: US Health Care Reform
From: Ron Davies
Date: 09 Sep 09 - 11:24 PM

No, Carol, not to the extent they do in the UK. And in the UK they do not object.

Subject: RE: BS: US Health Care Reform
From: katlaughing
Date: 09 Sep 09 - 11:38 PM

Haha! I am glad the fundraising got a boost for Wilson's opponent.

I thought the speech was brilliant as did my Rog who is much more critical than I.

Subject: RE: BS: US Health Care Reform
From: CarolC
Date: 09 Sep 09 - 11:41 PM

Yes, but if they understood that they are currently paying for those without insurance, and if they understood that they are paying a lot more for the care that is being given than they would pay if such people had access to good medical care before they become seriously ill, and if they had any business sense at all, they would realize it's in their best interest to ensure that everyone has access to good medical care. Insurance company employees and executives excepted.

Subject: RE: BS: US Health Care Reform
From: heric
Date: 10 Sep 09 - 12:15 AM

I'm convinced Obama's "my plan" must be HR 3200. Guess I'd better start warming up to it. God what a monster. (It does say all (minumum/standard plan) insurers have to accept all comers - section 112. And 113 says they have to continually study the "adverse selection" problem and make "recommendations." 113 also says they have pretty large rating pools, geographically, "as specified by the Commissioner in consultation with state regulators.") I really can't figure out the specifics on who gets to, who wants to, and who must, go to the exchange.

I'm not sure how they limit the public option within the exchange to no more than 5% of the population. Probably that's an estimate not a promise.

I think they are supposed to forever monitor the individual market, the small group market, the large group markets, and the public option, and keep making rule adjustments, especially at the exchange, to ensure "equality" and "affordability" in people's options, while not "unfairly" subsidizing the public option.

Of course I may have it all wrong altogether.

I'm still sorry for the Medicaid people and their kids.

Subject: RE: BS: US Health Care Reform
From: TRUBRIT
Date: 10 Sep 09 - 12:47 AM

My husband is a councillor and was off at a meeting - so I listened alone then we found it on UTube - it was even better the second time around.....

Subject: RE: BS: US Health Care Reform
From: artbrooks
Date: 10 Sep 09 - 01:29 AM

For those who can't handle talking heads, no matter who they might be, here is the text of the President's remarks.

Subject: RE: BS: US Health Care Reform
From: Azizi
Date: 10 Sep 09 - 07:43 AM

Here are links to YouTube videos of the speech:

President Obama Health Care Speech - part 1

and

President Obama Health Care Speech - part 2

Subject: RE: BS: US Health Care Reform
From: Azizi
Date: 10 Sep 09 - 07:53 AM

Here are the other links to that 50 minute speech:

President Obama Health Care Speech - part 3

President Obama Health Care Speech - part 5

and

President Obama Health Care Speech - part 6


**

I'm not sure what happened to part 4 or if the poster of these videos misnumbered them. Perhaps I mishyperlinked (if that is a word). If so, my apologies.

Subject: RE: BS: US Health Care Reform
From: Azizi
Date: 10 Sep 09 - 08:05 AM

Also, here's an update to this diary Eyes on the Ball: Health Coverage Reform, Not Wilson about the now infamous South Carolina Republican congressman 'Joe' Wilson (it turns out his real name is "Addison"):

"As of 11:15 p.m. PDT, ActBlue has tallied $72,178 for Rob Miller, Wilson's foe in the next election"...

-snip-

And I'm sure more has been raised since then.

**

Here's an excerpt from a column in the Washington Post about the Republicans shooting themselves in the foot (please excuse that pun)during President Obama's speech:

"Republicans' Audio-Visual Problem: It's always a mistake to assume that the only thing viewers take from a nationally televised speech is the words the president is using. If so, the White House could simply release the remarks and be done with it. Visuals (and audio) matter. And, the two most compelling pieces of audio-visual that came out of tonight's speech -- House Minority Whip Eric Cantor (Va.) checking his blackberry and Rep. Joe Wilson (R-S.C.) shouting "you lie" at Obama -- don't work in Republicans' favor. Remember that while the American public is not sold on Obama's health care plan, overwhelming majorities say they favor the two sides working together to solve the nation's problems. The more Republicans look like they are opposing the Democratic plan for partisan reasons, the more danger they are in politically."

Subject: RE: BS: US Health Care Reform
From: Ron Davies
Date: 10 Sep 09 - 08:44 AM

Financing NHS

Source:   Finance Director, University Hospitals, Coventry and Warwickshire, NHS Trust

29%    Income Tax
16%    National Insurance

Obviously there are other items on this list

But the second item is the crucial one.   Jan says the way it works is that the National Insurance deduction is taken out of all wages, according to income.




Something similar will have to happen in the US in order for a single-payer system to be financed here.

And with the US worship of the individual, ably led by cheerleaders such as ex-gov Palin, and the editorial page of the WSJ---but to the detriment of the community--it's not likely to happen soon.   Opposition to such a change is hammered away at constantly, with the theme being:   private charity is fine, but public charity is not. Excuses include:   alleged incompetence of government to do anything well or efficiently, stifling of private initiative
"The more of your money you keep, not sending it to government, the better for the economy at large" and others.

Subject: RE: BS: US Health Care Reform
From: artbrooks
Date: 10 Sep 09 - 08:52 AM

Remember, for the umpity-zillionth time, single-payer is not on the table in the US and is really never likely to be.

Subject: RE: BS: US Health Care Reform
From: Charley Noble
Date: 10 Sep 09 - 09:54 AM

This fine speech won't stop Republican hard-liners from opposing universal health care, but it might undermine their attempts to get re-elected in 2010.

I wonder what part of "lie" Rep. Joe Wilson (R-S.C.) doesn't understand.He did have the grace to apologize to Obama for "being uncivil" but he still evidently believes that there's a plan somewhere to extend publicly funded medical care to "illegal aliens."

Charley Noble

Subject: RE: BS: US Health Care Reform
From: heric
Date: 10 Sep 09 - 10:07 AM

I was wondering that too Charley. I just went to his website "health care" page, and the site is down due to high traffic. Maybe he can have a new career going on the talk circuits with Sarah Palin.

Subject: RE: BS: US Health Care Reform
From: Riginslinger
Date: 10 Sep 09 - 10:16 AM

'"I wonder what part of "lie" Rep. Joe Wilson (R-S.C.) doesn't understand... he still evidently believes that there's a plan somewhere to extend publicly funded medical care to "illegal aliens."'

             That's because the Democrats keep verbalizing their opposition to covering illegals, but every time a proposal is made in ensure that it can't happen, they veto it.

Subject: RE: BS: US Health Care Reform
From: Greg F.
Date: 10 Sep 09 - 11:03 AM

Joe Wilson's behavior shouldn't surprise anyone- his political mentor was Strom Thurmond. For those too young to remember the rantings of Thurmond the archetypal white supremacist & segregationist, 'google' his political career.

Subject: RE: BS: US Health Care Reform
From: artbrooks
Date: 10 Sep 09 - 11:04 AM

Banning illegal immigrants is in HR 3200.   Some people would rather believe talk show hosts and other reliable sources than read the proposed legislation.

Subject: RE: BS: US Health Care Reform
From: Riginslinger
Date: 10 Sep 09 - 11:18 AM

Okay, Art - They can easily change their minds after the legislation is passed, or they can legalize a bunch of folks who are illegal now and cover them that way. All the opponents are asking for is some form of verification that the people being covered are legal, and that people who broke the law to get here in the first place are not covered.

            If they would do that, and provide some meaningful form of tort reform, they'd have all kinds of support.

Subject: RE: BS: US Health Care Reform
From: Greg F.
Date: 10 Sep 09 - 11:25 AM

They can easily change their minds after the legislation is passed, or they can legalize a bunch of folks...

Yeah, gee whiz, that's a real problem with a democracy. Ya can always draft & enact new legislation that impacts or negates earlier legislation.

Maybe we need a dictatorship.

PS: who are "they" anhyhow???

Subject: RE: BS: US Health Care Reform
From: heric
Date: 10 Sep 09 - 11:29 AM

I thought I must be thick as a brick because I couldn't understand how "not one dime . . . not one dime" (read my lips) would come out of Medicare while at the same 500 or 600 billion from Medicare would be available to pay for the new proposals. Neither could I grasp how any money from a speeding locomotive heading for an actuarial train wreck could be the source of money.

For an appetizer, see how $30 billion comes from premiums and benefits changes under the outpatient prescription drug benefit under Part D of Medicare: CGO 8/28/09

For the entree, see CBO 7/17/09

For desert, you will want to ingest CBO 7/25/09

If you get the impression that HR 3200 is primarily directed at the Medicare crisis with "health insurance exchanges" as a sideshow of extraordinary complexity, you may be right. See CBO 6/16/09

I watched the White House Communications' Director's streaming Q&A after the speech. They chose and answered questions like: "Will I lose maternity leave?" A: "No, you won't lose maternity leave!"

Subject: RE: BS: US Health Care Reform
From: Charley Noble
Date: 10 Sep 09 - 11:50 AM

I suppose the Federal Government could save a lot of money by eliminating Social Security and Medicare, not to mention Public Education. Shit, all the Government needs really is money to buy weapons.

I can hardly wait until Health Care Reform is enacted and we can shift focus to something else that needs to be done.

Charley Noble

Subject: RE: BS: US Health Care Reform
From: GUEST,beardedbruce
Date: 10 Sep 09 - 12:03 PM

"From: Azizi
Date: 09 Sep 09 - 10:55 PM

I don't think this has ever happened before in a Presidential address to Congress:"

Oh??? Look here.

http://www.realclearpolitics.com/video/2009/09/10/flashback_democrats_boo_bush_at_2005_state_of_the_union.html

Subject: RE: BS: US Health Care Reform
From: heric
Date: 10 Sep 09 - 12:07 PM

My opinion from the portions I can understand is that HR 3200 is too complicated by a factor of several hundred billion. It is a major reconstruction of the labyrinth. It leaves the powerful interests with what works for them, while imposing mandates they can tolerate.

It reduces a lot of cost shifting by protecting the working insured and covering the working uninsured. and mandating participation.

It pretends to shift Medicare funding to the larger population. It is focused on continuing federal discretion to impose benefits reductions in Medicare, claiming that reductions in benefits and services will not result in the reduction of available *quality* based on continual outcomes-based research with resulting care management guidelines constantly adjusted.

It leaves the tax benefits to corporations providing health care, the employee benefits industry protected, and the divisions between employer provided insurance and other insurance, while promising to constantly adjust premiums and monitoring adverse selection to minimize unfair results.

It may or may not end up with a public option within the health insurance exchange, constantly monitored to provide care with subsidies monitored to ensure they are not "unfair" subsidies.

Mr. Obama, tear down that labyrinth!

You can still reform Medicare within a Medicare bill.

(What struck me most in the speech is that the $900 billion is less than all of the Bush tax cuts' impact over the next ten years. That really provides perspective.)

Subject: RE: BS: US Health Care Reform
From: SINSULL
Date: 10 Sep 09 - 12:16 PM

I can't help but wonder if the "You lie!" shout would have happened if Obama were white.
Respect the office if not the man. What a disgrace.