BS: BNP on question time

Subject: RE: BS: BNP on question time
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 25 Oct 09 - 05:32 AM

Ha! I see the highly crucial question of this debate has been reached: just where did royalty sleep during the war and what did anyone's daddy do? Well, what else to expect from below-the-line peeps who cull what they fondly imagine is "news" via Fox and the Dirty Digger.

Growing up in a region renowned for sectarianism, I recall many tales post-WW2 of German (Jewish or not) émigré businesses - and indeed the synagogue - being vandalised and daubed with pig's blood. Dim people (who didn't even manage the Desmond achieved by their present-day führer) are conditioned to believe that the way to deal with anything "different" is to stamp on it. This is the sole reason why I don't think it was a good move for mainstream politicians (nor the high-profile black BM worker nor the homophobic and otherwise dodgy Asian life peer) to gang up on the odious nasty Nick on mainstream television. He is quite capable of displaying his neanderthal idiocy without fomentation of sympathy from the terminally stupid.

Straw senior at the outbreak of WW2 was a member of the Peace Pledge Union who took the view at that time that hostilities were merely a continuation of the imperialist WW1 and so got banged up. As he didn't stick around for long after Straw junior's birth I doubt if he had much influence on his son's decision to refuse to serve in his school's militaristic cadet force. When I first encountered Jack Straw as NUS president in the late 60s, his stance on peace was well-established. I don't recall if he ever wore the white peace poppy then but I wish he'd worn one instead of the war-glorying Haig "red flower" on QT.

Subject: RE: BS: BNP on question time
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 25 Oct 09 - 05:37 AM

Oh, and when Joe removes Helen, 200 again!

Yes, Helen, I disagree with you. There is a balance to be taken. Those who do apply reason in or to politics, that is to say the vast majority even if they err) will be further repulsed by by the BNP and those who had failed to see what it was and voted for it as a form of rebellion or protest will be helped truly to perceive it and so those things will lose the BNP votes.

Conversely, the pathetic wingers who say that no party represents them (which may be a fact, but if so is largely because their views are repulsive antisocial and economically and genetically illiterate) will be further convinced that they are not represented. They need education, but until they get it that core maybe increased in its diligence in BNP voting.

Further, racist bigoted wannabee authoritarians who did not know about the BNP already (can there really be any that stupid?) will now know more about it. They will therefore be enabled to vote for it - unless they are put off by the incompetence and ignorance the BNP leader displayed.

Thus, although there is a risk that arises from giving the BNP the oxygen of publicity, I am by no means convinced that it will come to pass. Who would be attracted to a party whose leader was shown to be stupid?

Subject: RE: BS: BNP on question time
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 25 Oct 09 - 05:41 AM

Oh, by the way George, when Joe removes Helen you will get your 200 back, unless my "bare" 200 is removed as well in which case you will be 199, and Diane will have an unclaimed 200.

Subject: RE: BS: BNP on question time
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 25 Oct 09 - 05:47 AM

Diane will have an unclaimed 200

I am uninterested in such frivolity, convinced as I am that the subject, properly addressed, is of crucial importance.

Subject: RE: BS: BNP on question time
From: Gervase
Date: 25 Oct 09 - 05:57 AM

Gervaise ducky, that sort of language is most fowl and unbecoming
Marc (see, I can piss around with people's names, too), do you know the difference between 'fowl' and 'foul'?

Subject: RE: BS: BNP on question time
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 25 Oct 09 - 06:01 AM

Yes it is indeed, Diane; but if you can't see the crucial importance of where the King & Queen actually lived during the Blitz, you simply emphasise the fact that YOU WEREN'T THERE, & know sod-all about what it felt like to be there, & would therefore do well to refrain from comment on that particular aspect of the topic whatever. Sorry to address you, whom you know I regard highly, in such a tone: but that particular endeavour on your part at a pejorative putdown was not worthy of you.

Subject: RE: BS: BNP on question time
From: GUEST,Ralphie
Date: 25 Oct 09 - 06:50 AM

Ah...GUEST Helen Butcher...(What an apt name!)
You are absolutely right. Long may the oxygen of publicity be provided for your party. The only way to negate fascists, (and indeed other extremists) is by confronting them on every available occasion.
(Interesting thought....I hadn't realised that Nick Griffin and Abu Hamza are equally reviled. What an odd pairing that is!)
Now, that would make an interesting Question Time panel.

Subject: RE: BS: BNP on question time
From: Gervase
Date: 25 Oct 09 - 07:12 AM

You know, where the King and Queen happened to live during the Blitz is actually pretty important.
If we accept the rose-tinted view that the dear old Queen Mum endured the Blitz shoulder to shoulder with the pearly kings and costermongers of the East End it shows that we're also inclined to accept other received opinions and to rub along with the status quo without challenging things.
The truth is that Harold Nicholson, minister of information in 1940, instructed the newspapers to censor the fact that the Queen was booed on her first visit to the East End, and vegetables were throw at the royal entourage. It was only after there was some minor bomb damage to some outlying buildings in the grounds of Buckingham Palace that she made the comment that she could "look the East End in the face", and she was cheered on a subsequent visit to Aldgate.
Accepting received opinion shows that we're likely to accept what the Mail and Express tell us about immigration without actually looking at the facts.

Subject: RE: BS: BNP on question time
From: Fred McCormick
Date: 25 Oct 09 - 07:32 AM

Ralphie. "You are absolutely right. Long may the oxygen of publicity be provided for your party. The only way to negate fascists, (and indeed other extremists) is by confronting them on every available occasion."

Absolutely. The campaign of vilification of the BNP, of which I am a part, does have its downside. It alerts thickos, racists and skinheads, and all manner of nasties and wierdos to the fact that the BNP exists,and what a nasty organisation it is. Inevitably, it will act as a recruiting sergeant for a small number of them

The point however is to make ordinary, decent middle of the road folks realise that we are not dealing with a constitutional democratic alternative to the existing parties, but with a load of Nazi thugs, just like the ones my father helped to silence during the second world war.

If, for every hundred voters we manage to sway off the BNP, the BNP picks up one new member, we have the numerical advantage.

Subject: RE: BS: BNP on question time
From: Tug the Cox
Date: 25 Oct 09 - 07:35 AM


Conversely, the pathetic wingers who say that no party represents them (which may be a fact, but if so is largely because their views are repulsive antisocial and economically and genetically illiterate)

I guess you mean whingers. I a describe myself as a Socialist. No party in recent elections has stood on a platform remotely resembling mu political beliefs. I therefore claim that no party represents me, and refuse to vote for thatcherites ( con or lab)capitalist lickspittles and apologists for thr 'free' market.To waste a vote on any of these organisations would be to dishonour the chartists, thr tolpudle martyrs, Keir Hardie and all.

Subject: RE: BS: BNP on question time
From: Lox
Date: 25 Oct 09 - 07:41 AM

Ah yes ... the oxygen of publicity ... and increased membership ...


Can't wait to see the numbers of new BNP members swell dramatically now that there is no longer a bar on people with brown skin joining.


The oxygen of publicity indeed.


YOO HOO ... ANYONE CAN JOIN NOW ......


I'm looking forward to watching the BNP dissolve.


The British National Party - representing British Nationals ... and run by them too.

Soon al the racist members will have to find someone else to represent them.

Only there won't be any legal alternative.


Bye Bye BNP.

Bye Bye Helen.

Bye Bye Mark.


Don't get too upset, you never mattered that much.

Subject: RE: BS: BNP on question time
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 25 Oct 09 - 08:21 AM

I wasn't in London during the blitz though it still wouldn't have interested me where the royals actually went home to to sleep. I hope they were suitably thankful that they had a choice of many domiciles when so many had none. I do however think it would be a better use of that prime slice of real estate in Pimlico where Buck House stands to be redeveloped as social housing for those enduring overcrowded, overpriced and unsuitable accommodation and thus dissuade them from believing the BNP when they spin the line that it's all the fault of "immigrants" taking "their" housing.

Subject: RE: BS: BNP on question time
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 25 Oct 09 - 08:26 AM

The "pathetic whingers" are the urban working class.
They are the ones most effected by mass immigration, in terms of jobs, wages, schools, health and other services.

They do believe, rightly or wrongly, that no one else is listening to them.
There was certainly no one on the Question Time panel who did.
Just the ruling, liberal elite as usual.

That is why BNP is gaining influence in those areas.
If they ever get an articulate and charismatic leader, we are in big trouble.

Subject: RE: BS: BNP on question time
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 25 Oct 09 - 09:30 AM

,The truth is that Harold Nicholson, minister of information in 1940, instructed the newspapers to censor the fact that the Queen was booed on her first visit to the East End, and vegetables were throw at the royal entourage.'

G WEBB - What your source for this bumhole-bollox of a story? Were you in London at the time? I suspect you didn't even exist in those days. I was there. As I have related previously, my school [north not east London, but London JTS] was one of the places they visited. Anyone who had thought of booing — which of course nobody did — would have been fucking lucky not to be torn to pieces. Another thing I will tell you is that there was no such thing as "the Queen...on HER first visit to the East End" - there were always THE KING & Queen on THEIR visit on such occasions; you seem to believe she just went swanning about by herself without him — she was, in fact, in the main the adjunct, the consort. It was the monarch who mattered. I will tell you that nobody booed or threw anything. You would do well not to believe too many of the writings of leftie·wankers with agendas, mate. I say again, you haven't provided any source for this pathetic pigsbum of a tale.

Subject: RE: BS: BNP on question time
From: Gervase
Date: 25 Oct 09 - 09:45 AM

My source for the Royal Family staying in Windsor and commuting in to London was Churchill's 'Their finest Hour', which you should be able to find on Google Books. Nicholson's comments can also be Googled as they're public domain.
Don't take it personally. All of us have to have illusions shattered at some point if we're to learn, whether the concern Father Christmas, the Tooth Fairy and God or the invincibility of Liverpool FC and the sanctity of the dear old Queen Mum.
Just because someone lived in London at the time doesn't make them the font of all knowledge regarding the Blitz. Bob Holman lived in the East End through the Blitz, and he appears to take a different view to you when he writes:
"Looting occurred. The king and queen were booed by some East Enders who contrasted the royals' luxury with their lack of food. Grievances could erupt and the radical priest, John Groser, smashed open a food depot in Stepney, in the East End, when officials were slow to feed his bombed-out neighbours."
The point is not to accept what we're told at face value but to find out the facts. If more people did that, the BNP wouldn't be able to get away with its lies and half-truths, and people wouldn't be able to say "I'm no racist but I support the BNP", which must be one of the dumbest things anyone could say.

Subject: RE: BS: BNP on question time
From: Gervase
Date: 25 Oct 09 - 09:53 AM

...and to call Harold Nicolson a "leftie' is a bit of a hoot, as you'd see if you looked into his life. A career diplomat from before the Great War, for a while he was pally with Mosley until Mosley became a fascist and was appointed minister of information by Churchill.
So "leftie" was he that he was appointed Knight Commander of the Royal Victorian Order as a reward for writing the official biography of George V.

Subject: RE: BS: BNP on question time
From: Azizi
Date: 25 Oct 09 - 10:58 AM

Here's a part of that Question Time show which hasn't yet been mentioned on this thread, and I don't think has been widely noted elsewhere:

A young White male audience member said he had a question for the lady on the panel. The moderator asked him which lady he was referring to, and he answered Baron Warsi, because he said he knew Bonnie Greer's name.

I believe this is significant on two levels:

1. That two Women of Color were referred to as "lady" and it appears that most people thought that a given. Think about what that means in terms of the 1863 Ain't I A Woman speech that is attributed to the African American female anti-slavery activist Sojourner Truth.


2. That a woman without a nobility title was referred to as a "lady".

-snip-

I think that both of these points show how far people in the early 21st century have come regarding issues of race and class.

This doesn't mean that there nothing more positive that needs to be done in those areas. Obviously, in light of the BNP and other racist, fascist organizations, anyone who thought that we had eradicated the need to positively and effectively work through issues of race, ethnicity, and class has his or her head buried waaay down in the sand.

But, in my opinion, that small exchange in which the White audience member and the White moderator referred to Bonnie Greer and Baroness Warsi as ladies and the audience took that as a matter of course definitely shows that we have made some progress.

Subject: RE: BS: BNP on question time
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 25 Oct 09 - 11:20 AM

Azizi, it's common in the UK for men to afford women (of any class, race or ethnicity) due respect by referring to them as a 'lady' - I do it all the time, as do most of my circle of (male) friends. So, for instance, I would indicate a particular woman in a crowd as perhaps "the lady in the (specific) dress", rather than "the woman.....".

It's not an indication of belonging to the 'nobility' on the part of the woman, nor of any specific attitude towards people of colour on the part of the man, it's simply politeness on the part of the man in his reference to a woman.

Two nations divided.......etc.?

Subject: RE: BS: BNP on question time
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 25 Oct 09 - 11:24 AM

Panellists Greer and Warsi are both women. That anyone should attempt to refer to either of them as "ladies" shows only how little is understood about sexual politics and how much education remains outstanding.

Re: royals in wartime London

Gervase 1 Mike 0

although there was German-inflicted war damage aimed elsewhere. And no, I wasn't present on Tyneside either while the shipyards were being bombarded, but I was taken as a small child to view the crater in which some relatives had been vaporised. No, I don't know the purpose of that either.

Subject: RE: BS: BNP on question time
From: Azizi
Date: 25 Oct 09 - 11:32 AM

Backwoodsman, in the 19th century and earlier, did English people refer to those who were not part of the nobiiity as ladies?

Also, in the 19th century and earlier, did Wnite people refer to Black women and other Women of Color as ladies (except for "ladies of the night" meaning "prostitutes"?

I don't think the first point is a matter of two nations divided by a common language (at least with regard to the USA) because we don't as a rule use nobility titles.

But if English people referred to Black women as ladies (and used Mrs and their last name while addressing them instead of using Aunt and a first name (their actual first name or a first name like "Jemima" or "Lizzie" that was used for all Black women) then that does appear to be different practices than those that occurred in the USA during the same time periods.

Subject: RE: BS: BNP on question time
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 25 Oct 09 - 11:37 AM

Some of your comparisons are difficult for us Azizi.
In 19thCentury Britain, unless they travelled beyond Europe, the vast majority of the people would never have seen a person of colour.

Subject: RE: BS: BNP on question time
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 25 Oct 09 - 11:41 AM

In your post of 10:58 AM you referred to linguistic practice of the "early 21st century", albeit in terms of "race and class". Women nowadays regard it as insulting to be called "ladies" and deplore the sexist attitudes of those still lurking in the backwoods. The term "Kinder Küche Kirche" springs to mind.

Subject: RE: BS: BNP on question time
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 25 Oct 09 - 11:46 AM

Azizi. for most brits , their first encounter with people of colour came with the arrival of GIs in WW2.
Problems then arose because British people did not segregate, but white GIs did.

Subject: RE: BS: BNP on question time
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)
Date: 25 Oct 09 - 11:48 AM

Lady? It's a term intended as a politeness to strangers, and one used by most folk. I expect most of us were raised as kids to do it as a matter of course. But it's always funny to me when Mums in shops say to their kids something like: "You're in the lady's way" or "Don't run into the Lady" when referring to me - as I'm very much not a lady! Pretty much a complete hippy scruff-bag actually, who runs around in unladylike boots and tatty old second hand clothes. In the U.S. I believe it's customary to refer to strangers as Sir or Ma'am, neither of which in such instances imply any kind of genuine recognition of, or deference to, another's supposed social status. Similar thing with 'lady' or 'gentleman'. I'll often casually refer to guys as 'gents' too, especially if they're older, like "the gent with the pipe and glasses" or even "that homeless gent by the railings"..

Subject: RE: BS: BNP on question time
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 25 Oct 09 - 11:48 AM

Tug - I meant the pathetic whingers in the BNP. Nothing wrong with complaining that there is no socialist party, but that complaint does not send you to the BNP. Actually there are several left-wing parties, but none have any influence although all I think have voices.

Subject: RE: BS: BNP on question time
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 25 Oct 09 - 11:52 AM

...and none of them speak up for the working class.

Subject: RE: BS: BNP on question time
From: Azizi
Date: 25 Oct 09 - 11:54 AM

Keith A of Hertford, my question is a historical one. I'm aware that most people living in the nations that now constitute the UK had little if any contact with People of Color in the 19 century and earlier.

**

The Borchester Echo, with regard to your comment that "Women nowadays regard it as insulting to be called "ladies" and deplore the sexist attitudes of those still lurking in the backwoods" , I'll take your word that this is true regarding the women of your acquaintance. And it may also be true regarding other women in the UK.

However, your comment is definitely not true everywhere in the world. For example, it's definitely not true among every population in the USA.

Subject: RE: BS: BNP on question time
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 25 Oct 09 - 11:56 AM

for most brits , their first encounter with people of colour came with the arrival of GIs

Eh?

Black (and Arabic) persons have been around in these islands since the Middle Ages, first left over from the Roman occupation and then as a result of seafaring. The term of Tudor times was "blackamoor", not intended, I don't think, to be very complimentary. On Tyneside the very long-established Bengali community is dubbed (by some) the "South Shields Arabs". Bristol, Liverpool and Cardiff also have very long-standing black communities with nothing whatsoever to do with WW2 GIs and predating also Enoch Powell's recruitment of Afro-Caribbeans for the NHS.

Subject: RE: BS: BNP on question time
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 25 Oct 09 - 12:06 PM

Yes B Echo I know.
My statement is still true.

Subject: RE: BS: BNP on question time
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 25 Oct 09 - 12:08 PM

When you have got yourself up to speed with the women's movement in this country and spoken with some of its long-standing adherents (I'd suggest Patricia Hewitt, Harriet Harman and Beatrix Campbell as some of the higher-profile women with whom I worked with as far back as 1970), you might be qualified to speak on how women in the early 21st century feel about reactionary retards. As this thread is supposed to be about neo-fascists in particular, I can only repeat that you reflect on the doctrine of "Kinder Küche Kirche" and how it, and these reactionaries, seek to subject and oppress 51% of the population.

Subject: RE: BS: BNP on question time
From: Tug the Cox
Date: 25 Oct 09 - 12:11 PM

Only some women in UK deplore being called a lady. Interestingly David Dimbleby used to call for a 'lady in the audience' but changed that to 'a woman', often accompanied by a grin and 'I've been told I must say that.'

   Lady and gentleman were used in the C19 in UK to refer to people of refined manners rather than only those with titles.

Subject: RE: BS: BNP on question time
From: Azizi
Date: 25 Oct 09 - 12:13 PM

In the U.S. I believe it's customary to refer to strangers as Sir or Ma'am
-Crow Sister

This isn't true across the board. It depends on one's upbringing and-maybe also which region of the nation a person is from. Among African Americans,some children are raised to refer to adults as sir or ma'am and others aren't (I wasn't. If some adult asked me a question, if I didn't hear the question, instead of saying "Ma'am?", I said "Yes?". It was considered very rude and disrespectful for either "group of children" to answer "What?".)

**

However, my central point was that historically-in 19th USA and earlier-BlackAmericans were not given the respect that White Americans routinely received. Few White people (from children on up) used the titles Mr., Mrs., or Miss along with a last name for Black people. (And yes, some Black people had surnames prior to emancipation.) Instead, the titles Auntie and Uncle were used along with a first name.

Also, few Black women were referred to as ladies. Instead, they were referred to as "mammy".

I wondered if reviewing historical records of contacts between Black people who resided in England prior to the immigration of Black Caribbean people (which I'm certain exist-the records that is)-if those same customs were practiced in England.

Subject: RE: BS: BNP on question time
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 25 Oct 09 - 12:24 PM

nice piece here about a black man in Britain in WW2
http://www.bbc.co.uk/ww2peopleswar/stories/96/a1921196.shtml
The questions he was asked show that people were unfamiliar with people of colour.

Subject: RE: BS: BNP on question time
From: Folkiedave
Date: 25 Oct 09 - 12:25 PM

for most brits , their first encounter with people of colour came with the arrival of GIs

Try books by Colin Holmes

Subject: RE: BS: BNP on question time
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 25 Oct 09 - 12:31 PM

It's hard to fathom WTF modes of address have to do with the BNP but in a brave attempt to make it so, I found it very noticeable when at university in Germany in the 70s that the use of Herr, Frau & Fräulein was infinitely more widespread than the equivalents in Britain. And that racism was considerably more entrenched, indeed commonplace. Someone came to visit me in the house where I was renting a basement from the traditional old burgher. She enlisted the help of an African student (of which there were many: a case of German reparation in addition to the loss of the African colonies after WW1). Suddenly from aloft I heard screams of "Schwarz". Friend and black student descended followed by householder threatening me with eviction for harbouring visitors of the "wrong colour". On making inquiries at the police station I discovered that "no offence had been committed". Needless to say, I moved out anyway but we all know how Hitler's heirs treated the Gastarbeiter, don't we?

Subject: RE: BS: BNP on question time
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 25 Oct 09 - 12:33 PM

'to call Harold Nicolson a "leftie' is a bit of a hoot' -

Typical bit of evasive pretence of misunderstanding, G. I didn't call Nicholson a leftie: it was the booby who published that untrue anecdote about his press censorship of whom I used the term — & don't pretend you didn't get that — unless you actually do want to appear thicker then you really are...

What does that make the score, Diane?

Subject: RE: BS: BNP on question time
From: Azizi
Date: 25 Oct 09 - 12:34 PM

If "ladies" isn't a respectable term for wome in the UK, then I contend that this is a case of "two nations divided by a common language".

I brought up the topic of the use of "ladies" in this thread because I considered it relevant to the broad topic of the Question Time show which included Nick Griffin.

If I correctly understand the point that The Borchester Echo is making, some feminist women in the UK don't like to be called "ladies" and don't like that word to be used for other respectable ladies.

I confess that I may not be totally up to date with American feminist beliefs and terminology, but it seems to me that this is a case of "two nations being divided by a common language". In other words, this might also be the case among American feminist. However, I know it's not the case among African American women in general.

I realize that there is another Mudcat thread about that topic-Here's that link to that discussion. But again, I raised the topic of the use of the word "ladies" in this thread because I considered-and still consider- it to be relevant to this discussion, at least from an American point of view.

Subject: RE: BS: BNP on question time
From: GUEST,John from Kemsing
Date: 25 Oct 09 - 01:01 PM

Is there really anyone, for example, who, being present at a wedding reception as a guest would take offence at the Master of Ceremonies, who was not personally acquainted with any of the guests, if he requested everyone to rise to toast the bride and groom by pronouncing, "Ladies and Gentlemen, would you please be upstanding for the bride and groom". If there is then please pass me the Valium!

Subject: RE: BS: BNP on question time
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 25 Oct 09 - 01:14 PM

Sigh.

You don't seriously think you're going to inveigle me into reading any more of the bollocks written down here?

The Azizi person's problem (don't bother to correct me if it's not so) is that she has completely misread my invitation to her to put right someone else's application of her name to the homophobic Asian life peer panellist on QT. It wasn't me who made such a bizarre error. Why would I? On the principle of wishing to know my enemy, I know who's in the Shadow Cabinet.

I came into this thread because:
(a) someone drew my attention to it and
(b) its subject matter is potentially important.

As many contributors fail to see it as such and adopt the bizarre attitude of treating it as an inconsequential joke, it's definitely time to go and do something more important.

Subject: RE: BS: BNP on question time
From: Azizi
Date: 25 Oct 09 - 01:20 PM

"That Azizi person"-when you call me that, The Borchester Echo, you smile.

Subject: RE: BS: BNP on question time
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 25 Oct 09 - 01:21 PM

Oh, and WTF has "respectability" got to do with the price of cheese? I believe that this was one of the concerns of the aforementioned German racist who imagined the presence of a non-white person on her street would cause a collapse of property prices, followed by the end of civilisation as she knew it.

Subject: RE: BS: BNP on question time
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 25 Oct 09 - 01:26 PM

We're drifting somewhat, but so what.

I rather assume that in this case the questioner was using the term "Lady" in the political sense, meaning the one who was a member of the House of Lords. If Warsi been a bloke a questioner who didn't know his name mightin the same way have referred to him as "the Lord on the panel."

In its more general application the word "lady" is a bit of a minefield - but then the same goes for "women" or "girl". Any of these can be taken as demeaning or insulting, in certain contexts - and can indeed be intended that way. Common sense and common courtesy normally makes it easy enough to negotiate these things.

Subject: RE: BS: BNP on question time
From: Fred McCormick
Date: 25 Oct 09 - 01:30 PM

"It's hard to fathom WTF modes of address have to do with the BNP"

Actually, and bizarrely, quite a lot. The BNP regards politically correct modes of address - EG Ms instead of Miss or Missus - as part of the downfall of western civilisation. EG., the Activists Handbook, in between reading like something Douglas Adams might have written, specifies the correct mode of address when speaking to persons conducting BNP meetings.

It is, wait for it, "Mr. Chairman". Nothing more and nothing less.

"Chairperson", "chairwoman" and even "chairlady" are deemed poltically correct, and therefore unacceptable. The Hitchhikers Guide, sorry, Activists Handbook is very strict on this. If a woman is occupying the chair, the correct mode of address is "Madame Chairman".

Honest, I swear I did not make that up.

Subject: RE: BS: BNP on question time
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 25 Oct 09 - 01:34 PM

Ms instead of Miss or Missus - as part of the downfall of western civilisation

Hehe, let's hope it does, their nightmare scenario of how they envisage it, anyway.
And it underlines what I was saying earlier about the weirdly German mores.

Subject: RE: BS: BNP on question time
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 25 Oct 09 - 01:41 PM

If that were the sum total of BNP mores, I think few people would find it too hard to live with it.

Subject: RE: BS: BNP on question time
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 25 Oct 09 - 01:55 PM

If you were keeping up, McGrath, you would have seen that I was referring to the use of Herr, Frau & Fräulein was infinitely more widespread than the equivalents in Britain. That and the sickmaking use of "gnädige Frau" and other such bollocks designed to prop up western (white) civilisation.

And to refer back to Crow Sister's remarks about mothers telling their screeching, ill-behaved brats to "get out of the lady's way" in the supermarket, it's highly disappointing to note that many of them are Afro-Caribbeans.

Subject: RE: BS: BNP on question time
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 25 Oct 09 - 02:05 PM

JohnL, I do not know who you are, but no, I have not recently sent any messages to anyone on Facebook nor sought to add anyone as "friend" on Facebook. I should be grateful if you would use a different application (eg "printpage", I am told - or I save a web page) to save the messages and perhaps we can figure out a way safely to get copies to me. I am collating information that may assist in enabling a class action lawsuit in the USA against Facebook who do nothing to stamp out the clones - and the idiots who do the cloning.

Subject: RE: BS: BNP on question time
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 25 Oct 09 - 02:21 PM

Diane, I think you are being perhaps oversensitive about the use of the word "lady". In principle I agree with you but it has for so long been a mark of manners to say "lady" rather than "woman" that it can be difficult to break the habits of a lifetime, and there are still people who take umbrage if referred to as "women" rather than "ladies". Somewhat similarly there are aristocratic and county circles in which it is considered unacceptably lower middle class to say "pardon" in stead of "what?". I gather that the Queen mother used much to mock those who did not know the difference between the pronunciations "marm" and "mam" for the elision "ma'am".

I do however wholly agree with you that it would be easy to see the reference to "Baroness Azizi" as a mistake for "Baroness Warnsi" as betraying an insulting confusion. But your reference to "the Azizi person" could also be seen as insulting. Plays on the names of people are seldom wholly innocent.

And Keith, to say that none of the left-wing parties speak for the legitimate concerns of "urban working class" is simply foolish, but worse it seems to resonate to the BNP dogwhistle. For example Galloway's "Respect" party speaks for quite a range of working and dispossessed including Asian (or, in Barness Warnsi's word "brown" in the current British usage of the word which does not include "Oriental", but I do not think she dared to say "yellow"), so who is it you say are unrepresented other than the BNP core of the white underclass?

Subject: RE: BS: BNP on question time
From: Gervase
Date: 25 Oct 09 - 02:23 PM

*sigh*
I say again, you haven't provided any source for this pathetic pigsbum of a tale
JFGI, Mike. And calm down. It's no longer a hanging offence to reveal that the royal family isn't perfect. The booing of the King and Queen is a matter of record. Live with it. They did.

Subject: RE: BS: BNP on question time
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 25 Oct 09 - 02:34 PM

The royal family is indeed far from perfect. But Ms Windsor Senior (deceased) was quite right to insist on correct pronunciation is someone was referring to her as "ma'am". And more so if she took issue with those who said "pardon" instead of "what". Too, too middle class . . .

Bridge person: such a form of address is an entirely non-contentious one, giving no indication of rank nor gender. The Azizi person ought to be glad of such neutrality. Note also I do not call you Mr Hoff Esquire. You are a person and your name is Bridge.