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BS: American English usages taking over Brit
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Subject: RE: BS: American English usages taking over Brit From: Alice Date: 31 Oct 09 - 01:25 PM Yes, but in Britain, not everywhere else! In the US, Jaguar is close to the Spanish pronunciation except the hard "J" instead of the spanish "H" sound for the "j". |
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Subject: RE: BS: American English usages taking over Brit From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 31 Oct 09 - 01:01 PM "Jaguar would be in Brit-speak, Jag-you-ar". That is how the car name is generally pronounced. |
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Subject: RE: BS: American English usages taking over Brit From: Alice Date: 31 Oct 09 - 12:49 PM If you pronounce it like the Spanish, it is HAG-war. |
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Subject: RE: BS: American English usages taking over Brit From: Alice Date: 31 Oct 09 - 12:48 PM Well if you apply the British nick-a-Rag-you-a (Nicaragua) pronunciation, then Jaguar would be in Brit-speak, Jag-you-ar. |
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Subject: RE: BS: American English usages taking over Brit From: Bill D Date: 31 Oct 09 - 12:36 PM "Did it work?" "The exception proves the rule." (thus, the more exceptions, the better the rule!) ☺ |
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Subject: RE: BS: American English usages taking over Brit From: VirginiaTam Date: 31 Oct 09 - 12:30 PM hey BillD it's Jagwar not Jaguah Pokin' ya with the annoying stick. Did it work? :D |
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Subject: RE: BS: American English usages taking over Brit From: meself Date: 31 Oct 09 - 12:23 PM To be fair, most people learn to pronounce foreign names and words either the way they hear other people pronounce them - and those people are rarely natives of the foreign locale in question - or the way the spelling of the words or names seems to indicate (to them). And in either case, the pronunciation will be influenced by the speaker's accent or dialect. At present, television and radio journalists are perhaps more to blame than anybody - if an unfamiliar name or word is introduced into the public discourse, they are the ones who most people first hear pronounce it. You would expect them to make some effort to learn the correct pronunciation before teaching the citizenry of a country how to say it. But perhaps that is easier said than done. When I was young, the only pronunciation I ever heard of "Hiroshima" was "hEE'ro-shEE'-muh". At some point, I heard that the correct pronuciation is closer to "her-AW'-shih-muh". The first, apparently-erroneous, pronunciation is the one that comes naturally to me; I have to make a conscious effort to say the second. It is just plain unrealistic to expect most people to make that kind of adjustment. |
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Subject: RE: BS: American English usages taking over Brit From: Alice Date: 31 Oct 09 - 12:19 PM It is "Mi casa es su casa", not est, but I know what you mean, Ebbie. And yes, it is weird to hear nickaRagyoua, but as I said, different pronunciations are just a part of the natural changes in language, from culture to culture and as time goes on. Things change, people are different around the world. Why would one be annoyed that someone pronounces things differently than the way your family did... it's only to be expected. Alice |
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Subject: RE: BS: American English usages taking over Brit From: Alice Date: 31 Oct 09 - 12:14 PM Art, with a short "i", as in pick. pi KAHN |
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Subject: RE: BS: American English usages taking over Brit From: Ebbie Date: 31 Oct 09 - 12:10 PM I was shocked and offended when I heard President Reagan greet the president of Mexico with the time-honored "Mi casa est su casa". He pronounced it 'cazza'. I still don't understand how a Californian - on the Mexican border - could get it so wrong. However, my son in law made a point. He said, "You mean that we should all pronounce foreign names and words with the correct intonation and pronunciation? What about Chinese?" |
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Subject: RE: BS: American English usages taking over Brit From: Bill D Date: 31 Oct 09 - 12:03 PM "One of the few Americanisms that I do dislike, however, is the way that some foreign names get mispronounced. Oh how I concur with that! It is not universal, but it is much too common. I am not sure what happens in the brain of some people when they hear various foreign words pronounced correctly. They seem to have a filter that says: "I am not going to make those funny sounds, no matter how the natives say it!" I have heard 'news' readers on TV listen to experts say words like Iraq correctly, then they turn around and continue to get it wrong. (To be fair, it is NOT only Americans who are guilty. I posted before of some English reporter for the BBC a few years ago who pronounced Nicaragua as "Nick-uh-RAG-you-a") |
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Subject: RE: BS: American English usages taking over Brit From: Ebbie Date: 31 Oct 09 - 11:46 AM So 'et' is the common pronunciation of 'ate'? Weird. In the parts of the US with which I am familiar - and in books - 'et' is used to denote near-illiteracy. I grew up saying 'eeRock' and 'eeRon'. |
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Subject: RE: BS: American English usages taking over Brit From: Bat Goddess Date: 31 Oct 09 - 11:45 AM I've NEVER heard decade pronounced any other than DECK'ade. If JFK pronounced it differently, I never noticed. (Guess I should listen again.) Used to get a kick (since I lived in Milwaukee until I was 20 when I moved to the Boston area) out of hearing all the Rs removed from words (such as the infamous "pahk the cah in Hahvahd yahd") placed on the ends of words such as Cuba. (Well, he had to do SOMETHING with 'em.) Regionalisms fascinate me -- since I grew up with so many of them. "Bubbler" for drinking fountain (only in Milwaukee and some neighborhoods of Boston); ruff/roof pronunciation; both soda and pop (or even soda pop) -- "tonic" in Massachusetts; the differentiation between soda crackers and saltines in Massachusetts, but just soda crackers in Wisconsin; purse / bag / handbag / poke; bag / sack; chuck holes / pot holes; ant/awnt, etc. Linn |
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Subject: RE: BS: American English usages taking over Brit From: artbrooks Date: 31 Oct 09 - 11:43 AM Is that pie-KAHN or pee-KAHN, Alice? I've always used the latter, although I've also heard pee-CAN and PEE-can. I really don't think that there IS such thing as |
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Subject: RE: BS: American English usages taking over Brit From: Dave the Gnome Date: 31 Oct 09 - 11:05 AM Nuts in Salford... |
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Subject: RE: BS: American English usages taking over Brit From: Alice Date: 31 Oct 09 - 10:49 AM pi-'KAHN here in the northern rocky mountains |
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Subject: RE: BS: American English usages taking over Brit From: VirginiaTam Date: 31 Oct 09 - 10:42 AM weird... grew up in and spent most of my adult life in southeastern and central Virginia respectively. I always pronounced Iraq and Iran as ear rock and ear ran. What about pecan - Peecan or Pehkahn I have always pronounced the latter, because that is the way my family did. But it is not very common, from what I understand. Is it across the Mason Dixon kind of pronunciation? In England I hear it as peecan |
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Subject: RE: BS: American English usages taking over Brit From: Alice Date: 31 Oct 09 - 10:31 AM I understood the thread title about bullying, even though we say playground, and even though... a lot of bullying among school children now happens on the internet and can happen away from school, too. Looking at the gripes on this thread, it seems a lot of people are easily annoyed. How can you find peace if such petty things bother you? Language changes over time and it's perfectly natural. A hundred years from now, people will laugh at pronunciations of 2009. Now with the speed of travel and worldwide internet communication, languages will change even faster. |
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Subject: RE: BS: American English usages taking over Brit From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 31 Oct 09 - 10:17 AM Decade with the last syllable emphasised - sounding like "decayed"? Could be confusing, a bit zombieish - "the musicians of the last decayed..." |
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Subject: RE: BS: American English usages taking over Brit From: Edthefolkie Date: 31 Oct 09 - 10:07 AM Maybe it's Robin Hood area dialect in my case, as in "oowerewee?" "E were wee issen!" and "Mek it guh bakkards". |
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Subject: RE: BS: American English usages taking over Brit From: artbrooks Date: 31 Oct 09 - 09:59 AM American dictionaries state: "ate (āt; Brit. or US dialect, et)" and "decade (DEK ād; Brit. also di KĀD). |
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Subject: RE: BS: American English usages taking over Brit From: artbrooks Date: 31 Oct 09 - 09:39 AM Decade, as in 10 years? As far as I know, everyone in the US (Boston Brahmans aside) pronounces it DECade. |
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Subject: RE: BS: American English usages taking over Brit From: melodeonboy Date: 31 Oct 09 - 09:09 AM "everybody in the UK media uses "DECKade" with the first syllable emphasized." Yes, that's the normal British pronunciation! As far as I know, Americans usually stress the second syllable. |
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Subject: RE: BS: American English usages taking over Brit From: Edthefolkie Date: 31 Oct 09 - 08:47 AM Re the pronunciation of "decade", for a few years now I've thought that I was pronouncing it incorrectly as everybody in the UK media uses "DECKade" with the first syllable emphasized. But the other week the Kennedy Man on the Moon speech was on a BBC programme. JFK pronounced it "DeCADE". A belated thank you to Jack for restoring my self confidence. If an upper crust Bawstonian can do it, so can I. |
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Subject: RE: BS: American English usages taking over Brit From: Will Fly Date: 31 Oct 09 - 08:46 AM Bill Bryson makes some interesting comments, in several of his books, on the differences between UK and US use of the English language. Many "American" terms and words are actually phrases which were brought from Britain and have subsequently fallen out of use in Britain. "Gotten" is an example. However, the point is surely that all languages change and develop at different times, in different ways and at different rates. The English language is hugely open and hospitable to words changes and new words - probably more so than any other language in the world. Change in it is inevitable. This thread is about the "taking over" of the UK version of English by American terminology. I would suggest - if you look at our younger generations, particularly in cities, that there is a much more interesting change to the language which comes from Caribbean and Asian influences in the community. There was a similar set of additions to the language here when my father's generation came back from foreign places after WW2. So my Dad came back saying "let's have a shufti" for "let's have a look" (Arabic shufti=look) and I"M off for a charp" when he meant I'm off for a nap (Hindi charpoy=day bed). Whether these have stayed in current use really depends on your age group. Now I'm off to change my chuddies. |
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Subject: RE: BS: American English usages taking over Brit From: melodeonboy Date: 31 Oct 09 - 08:14 AM "Great heavens! How do you pronounce "ate" and "eight"?" I pronounce "ate" the same way that most British people did until very recently, and many, including myself, still do, i.e. to rhyme with "bet". Both Oxford and Cambridge dictionaries indicate both pronunciations; the pronunciation that I use is indicated first in both. |
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Subject: RE: BS: American English usages taking over Brit From: Dave the Gnome Date: 31 Oct 09 - 07:02 AM I must accept responsibility for the 'Schoolyard' thread - I started it! I did choose the phrase on purpose. Not for any journalistic or sensation seeking reason but for two very sound reasons. 1. I gathered that everyone from both sides of the Atlantic would understand Schoolyard whereas, although I was brought up with the term Playground, it may have been UK English, or even regional, rather than global. 2. A playground can be part of a school or part of a local park. We used to play on the playground in the park, which contained swings and a slide, as well as run around the school playground like mad people. The thread was specificaly targeted to the school version. Had it been a thread about taps or pavements I would not have used the American idioms but in this case I thought it more suitable. Before you pedants comment that I should have used 'School playground bullying' may I say that a thread title is just that. If MOST people understand it it has done it's job. So, nothing to do with American English useage, just plain common sense. Which, as the thread in question shows, may be quite uncommon nowadays:-) Cheers DeG |
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Subject: RE: BS: American English usages taking over Brit From: Jos Date: 31 Oct 09 - 05:00 AM That intrusive R in 'Cuber' and 'Alabamer' will be familiar to fans of the BBC's 'The Archers', in which Eddie Grundy refers to his son's partner Emma as 'Emmer' - he is supposed to come from the area east of Birmingham, though other characters from the same area have a variety of accents. |
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Subject: RE: BS: American English usages taking over Brit From: meself Date: 30 Oct 09 - 11:06 PM 'And what about "ate" pronounced the same as "eight"?' As opposed to ... ? Oh - "et", I suppose. In Canada, and probably most of North America, that would be considered either the height of pretentiousness or the depth of ignorance. |
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Subject: RE: BS: American English usages taking over Brit From: Rowan Date: 30 Oct 09 - 10:26 PM McGrath, guards-van was the word I indicated was obsolete. I don't know if it was ever used in England. It was routinely used in Oz until the van was omitted from most trains; but it is still understood and occasionally heard. Why "the van" should refer to the leaders in an advancing group (as a diminutive of vanguard) rather than occur at the tail end (with the guard's van) bothered me when I was young. If you ever visit Georgia, there is a town named Vienna, pronounced Vi-anna. I take it, Q, that the Georgia you refer to is the one fronting the Atlantic rather than the other. On matters of pronunciation, I occasionally lament the passing of the British and Oz pronunciation of "lieutenant" as "lef-tenant" in favour of the US "loo-tenant". I realise the US version is closer to the original French but my father's generation would prefer to have their rank described the way they knew it rather than in US terms, if they must be reminded at all. Cheers, Rowan |
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Subject: RE: BS: American English usages taking over Brit From: Ebbie Date: 30 Oct 09 - 10:18 PM "And what about "ate" pronounced the same as "eight"? Is that an Americanism or a spelling pronunciation? Or a combination of both? " Great heavens! How do you pronounce "ate" and "eight"? |
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Subject: RE: BS: American English usages taking over Brit From: melodeonboy Date: 30 Oct 09 - 09:18 PM "I must admit to cringing, when I ask someone how they are, and the reply is 'Good'" Yes, I often respond by saying "That's a matter of opinion"! (Not that most people understand it!) "for free"!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!" Yes, I also find that impossible to adjust to. "Listen UP, head UP, next UP etc.." What's the bloody "up" for? I usually tilt my head to one side whenever I'm told to listen up, but it's rarely appreciated! And what about "ate" pronounced the same as "eight"? Is that an Americanism or a spelling pronunciation? Or a combination of both? |
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Subject: RE: BS: American English usages taking over Brit From: Tootler Date: 30 Oct 09 - 09:15 PM [rant mode] One that really annoys me just now is the misuse of the word "solutions" in the commercial world. I first heard it in this context about 15 years ago in a radio advert for office equipment where the firm's products were referred to as "office solutions". Now you see it everywhere. On the motorway you regularly see large wagons whose owners advertise on the side of the vehicle that they provide "logistics solutions" (two misused words there) and I recently saw a van belonging to a construction company claiming they provided "total construction solutions". It's all a load of meaningless garbage [/rant mode] |
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Subject: RE: BS: American English usages taking over Brit From: Q (Frank Staplin) Date: 30 Oct 09 - 08:43 PM McGrath, guards-van was the word I indicated was obsolete. I don't know if it was ever used in England. The Kennedy's 'Cuber' for Cuba deserves some comment. Bostonians (and many other New Englanders of Irish and central English ancestry) pronounce many words ending in 'a' as if they ended in 'er'. The pronunciation is imported. 'Alabamer' is one that Southerners often comment on. I don't know enough about the accents of the Irish, etc. who came here in the late 19th or early 20th c. to comment on the origin of this, but perhaps someone from Ireland or Northern Ireland or central England will comment. A young Englishman with Ph.D., working in a research group I was with, always said 'Cuber', etc. The mis-pronunciation of foreign words beginning with 'i' is common both in the U. S. and Canada. Even when in the middle of a word, it gets the hard 'i' treatment. If you ever visit Georgia, there is a town named Vienna, pronounced Vi-anna. People look puzzled if you say 'Vee-enna'. Similarly, the Spanish Rio is usually pronounced Ry-o by older Anglos, just as it is in English chanteys. This also is an import. |
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Subject: RE: BS: American English usages taking over Brit From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 30 Oct 09 - 07:46 PM Most of this stuff I shrug and accept, or even welcome. Change happens, and often enough (not always) it is good as well as inevitable. One of the few Americanisms that I do dislike, however, is the way that some foreign names get mispronounced. One particular case is the way Iraq gets pronounced by American politicians and broadcasters as "EyeRACK". And I hate it when that seeps into broadcasts here, in place of "EerAhk", which at least attempts to approximate to the way people who live there pronounce it. It's lazy and it's disrespectful. |
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Subject: RE: BS: American English usages taking over Brit From: artbrooks Date: 30 Oct 09 - 07:26 PM Ebbie, my father was from Rhode Island and had the same name as me. My mother claims she thought his first name was Otto until she saw it written on their marriage license - because he pronounced it "Ott" until the day he died. |
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Subject: RE: BS: American English usages taking over Brit From: Bill D Date: 30 Oct 09 - 06:16 PM 'R' is the most abused/ignored letter in the alphabet. Some rrrrolll it, some add it on where it is not, some leave it off when it's needed. I HATED the Kennedys saying 'Cuber', but tried to swallow and shrug. We had a shanty group called "The Boarding Party', which one very nice and sweet soul called "The Bawding Potty". I usually managed not to giggle at the image. |
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Subject: RE: BS: American English usages taking over Brit From: Ebbie Date: 30 Oct 09 - 05:49 PM Speaking of DEEkayed, check out President Kennedy's speech that day he exhorted Americans to put a man on the moon in the next 10 years. Awfully close to DEEkayed. I thought it was because he was a New Englander. (He also said 'Cuber'.)(Some New Englanders have some atrange pronunciations. like 'drawring', for instance. Kendall? Is it also true of Maine?) |
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Subject: RE: BS: American English usages taking over Brit From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 30 Oct 09 - 05:44 PM The word is obsolete now. As a separate word maybe - but the expression "the whole caboose" is still current over here anyway. |
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Subject: RE: BS: American English usages taking over Brit From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies) Date: 30 Oct 09 - 05:28 PM Thanks for enlightening me about 'Deekayed/Dehkayed' Heh, I wonder why it's become so popular here? Most annoying not to be able to blame it on YOU lot... :) |
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Subject: RE: BS: American English usages taking over Brit From: Bettynh Date: 30 Oct 09 - 05:21 PM vindelis, It's blank stare time for me! LOL! I do know that BERlin is in upstate New Hampshire. Amd Coos County has two syllables (in the Coos part, that is). |
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Subject: RE: BS: American English usages taking over Brit From: Q (Frank Staplin) Date: 30 Oct 09 - 05:19 PM For McGrath- Kibosh widespread north of Mexico exclusive of francophone areas. (I was bashed for calling Canada and U. S. A. 'North America', forgetting Mexico, so circumlocutions are in order. I can't say Canada and U. S. A. since Canada is officially French as well as English-speaking). Caboodle first appeared in print in 1848; Lighter in 'Hist. Dict. American Slang' avoids giving an origin. 'Kit and caboodle' came much later. Guards-van is a 19th c. term for a baggage car with bank or payroll money and thus a guard. Heard from my grandfather in Colorado. The word is obsolete now. |
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Subject: RE: BS: American English usages taking over Brit From: Bill D Date: 30 Oct 09 - 05:15 PM ...so, "The Little Red Kibosh" is 'restraint of the Kremlin'?? had my coat already on...leaving now. |
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Subject: RE: BS: American English usages taking over Brit From: artbrooks Date: 30 Oct 09 - 05:12 PM Not where I come from, Dave. |
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Subject: RE: BS: American English usages taking over Brit From: Uncle_DaveO Date: 30 Oct 09 - 05:03 PM Since "kibosh" was mentioned in more or less the same context as "caboose", I need to issue a warning. The similarity of form of the two words can't guide you to the pronunciation. "Kibosh" is NOT "kih-BOSH", but "KYE-bosh". Dave Oesterreich |
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Subject: RE: BS: American English usages taking over Brit From: Bill D Date: 30 Oct 09 - 04:36 PM Yep, Kevin...I've heard "put the kibosh on" here. Not really often, but enough to get the context. Many unusual turns of phrase like 'kibosh' and 'caboodle' are heard orally, and not always perfectly, then either repeated as what someone thought they heard ('mondegreens' come to mind), or written down and spelled as well as possible, giving us SO many variations. There are threads in the music section about silly songs from childhood, where every couple of years some 'guest' refreshes it to post they way THEY heard it in girl scouts or grade school, ofthen with only a few words difference. I suppose if Mudcat continues for 50 years, we'll be a major research asset! |
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Subject: RE: BS: American English usages taking over Brit From: vindelis Date: 30 Oct 09 - 04:20 PM Bettnh, Zo yoov ne'er 'eard ov Dorshter? Ow abowt Crukern or Beminster? Praps tiz cuz yoom baint narn O we. Like wold vor en now wuld zay. The phrases that sent me racing to the internet (English Dictionary being a complete 'waste of time) have been 'Hard' and 'Soft' Skills - and 'Cascading Doughnuts'. The latter, had someting to do with communication, apparently. |
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Subject: RE: BS: American English usages taking over Brit From: RangerSteve Date: 30 Oct 09 - 04:10 PM Hey, British English is going to change with or without us here in the U.S. You're not speaking the way Chaucer or Shakespeare did, and I'll bet people complained about that, too. |
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Subject: RE: BS: American English usages taking over Brit From: Jos Date: 30 Oct 09 - 04:03 PM I've come across 'presently' meaning 'right now' from Scottish people, and it does seem more logical. I've often wondered whether it changed its meaning further south as a result of people fibbing - saying 'Yes, I'll do it presently' and then doing it in a little while, until people hearing 'I'll do it presently' got to know that they were going to have to wait. |
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Subject: RE: BS: American English usages taking over Brit From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 30 Oct 09 - 03:58 PM There's "caboose", guards-van, and in the expression "the whole caboose"; and there is "kibosh" used in the phrase "to put the kibosh on" menaing to finish off or defeat or destroy. Probably not related. But does the latter expression crop up in America? |
