BS: Why do all nurses need to have a degree?

Subject: BS: Why do all nurses need to have a degree?
From: Rasener
Date: 13 Nov 09 - 01:35 PM

I know there will be many academics, who think that having a degree will solve the problems of the world, but I fail to understand why all nurses need to have a degree.

Nurses need IMHO to be practical, loving and caring and understand what patients are going through. They also need to be able to deal with emergencies in the flash of a second. They also need to be able to roll their sleeves up and get on with the job. Mucking out springs to mind.

I would agree that maybe senior ward nurses should have a degree, but the best nurses IMHO are the doers who don't have degrees. They have the basic skills to deal with people who are ill.

We are in danger of losing soem very fine nurses, who are not academics.

What say yee.

No flaming or being offensive to anybody please. This is a very emeotional subject. Stick to nursing.

Subject: RE: BS: Why do all nurses need to have a degree?
From: Alice
Date: 13 Nov 09 - 01:39 PM

It seems you pose the question as if one can have a degree or be practical and loving and caring, but not both.

Nurses need to be able to have the knowledge to meet standards of certification so we know they can handle the job. Their personality and character is going to be individual to them, just as in any other occupation.

Subject: RE: BS: Why do all nurses need to have a degree?
From: GUEST,jts
Date: 13 Nov 09 - 01:43 PM

For one thing it is the nature of our society. My mother and aunt became teachers with one year of college and high school respectively. Over the years as the number of qualified applicants increased they were forced to get degrees or quit.

Another thing is that Nurses are required to have more responsibilities than they once did.

Another thing is that Nursing assistants are now doing the work that you refer to. If someone wants that work without a degree they can be Nursing assistants. Why should the employer pay the wages of a nurse without getting the resume?

Subject: RE: BS: Why do all nurses need to have a degree?
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 13 Nov 09 - 01:51 PM

Why do they need a degree?

Why, to send yet more money into the pockets of those who have deliberately created a society where no-one can get a job without the latest 'must have' requirement, be it a degree or an NVQ or an Apprenticeship.....

Clever, huh?

Just like the GCSEs, AS and A Levels, that now fill the minds of young people, who think that without them they are not REAL people...

Total Corporate Crap..


And.....I wonder how many politicians have a finger in the Examination/Edukashon Pie?   Probably quite a few.

Nurses have been nurses for centuries.   It is highly insulting to every single nurse in the land to say that they don't come up to standard without a bloody degree.

Yeesh!

Subject: RE: BS: Why do all nurses need to have a degree?
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 13 Nov 09 - 01:54 PM

Nursing assistants, as guest stated, do much of the practical ward work. Registered nurses must know much about medical, drug and operating room techniques; many are specialized; they are in short supply.

Subject: RE: BS: Why do all nurses need to have a degree?
From: Rasener
Date: 13 Nov 09 - 02:25 PM

OK

I understand and agree that if there are nursing assistants, so long as they do not need to get a degree and they are the doers and the academics are the chiefs.

Makes sense and answers my query.

Lizzie, keep to the point.

Subject: RE: BS: Why do all nurses need to have a degree?
From: Joe Offer
Date: 13 Nov 09 - 02:25 PM

It is going to be tough to have a rational transatlantic discussion of this issue, since the medical systems in the US and UK are so radically different. In the US, we have registered nurses and vocational nurses (licensed practical nurses). Vocational nurses usually have two years of training past high school, and generally complete an Associate of Arts degree in the process. There is a two-year registered nursing program, in California and some other states, but almost a year of prerequisite courses are required. And 2-year RNs find themselves restricted after graduation, and are usually not allowed to serve in management positions without a four-year degree. And many registered nurses have master's degrees or doctorates, or other advanced certifications like nurse-midwife or nurse-practitioner.
If you're in the hospital in the United States, it's most likely that it will be a nurse who heals you - you'll be lucky to see a doctor for more than a few minutes a day.

I don't know what the situation is in the UK and Europe. I get the impression that both doctors and nurses have had a lower level of education. US physicians finish high school at age 18, and then attend a four-year undergraduate degree program before entering a four-year medical school. After completing a doctorate, there is a one-year internship and then "residency" for two or more years of specialty training.

And then they get fantastic salaries so they can pay off their student loans and liability insurance (and BMW payments). US Nurses get pretty good salaries, too - but it's hard to get wealthy on a nurse's salary.

There are non-degree nursing assistants and medical assistants in the US system, but there is debate about how much they should be used. Handling bed baths and bed pans may seem like good work for a nursing assistant, but bed baths and bed pans provide an excellent opportunity for assessment of a patient's health and potential problems.

-Joe, who supported an ex-wife through nursing school and is now married to a chiropractor-

Subject: RE: BS: Why do all nurses need to have a degree?
From: VirginiaTam
Date: 13 Nov 09 - 02:28 PM

sigh... That is the way it is going, I am afraid.

I have a university degree and license to teach in the US. I could take some courses and get qualified in UK, but as I am not well enough to fight off the germs the little darlings spawn, I cannot teach.

So I work for County Council in non-challenging admin post, seriously under employed. This council is downsizing in a big way. Out sourcing non front line staff, and they are offering "back office" staff a government funded NVQL 2 training package, to ease the blow of having to apply for our own jobs with new "partner" (in this case IBM). At first I thought, "What and insult!" I have a degree, decade of business admin experience and am proficient in all software apps, including building complex databases and learning and using bespoke applications. Then I found out that I cannot apply because the funding is specifically for upskilling the workforce. I am overqualified for the training.

So here I am, with no viable accreditation to my name, age and health working against me and my work experience means diddly to the big corporation who will potentially be my manager. Am I afraid? Yes.   

I know someone who's daughter has severe dyslexia. She has been a nursery nurse (children's day care worker) for several years. Now she has to get a degree to continue in this job. She cannot do formal education as she has emotional scars from poor educational experience and still struggles with the disability.

Nursery nurses do not earn very much. Something on a par with retail floor staff, I guess. But the government expects her and others to take a degree and pay for it to boot? World's gone mad.

Subject: RE: BS: Why do all nurses need to have a degree?
From: gnu
Date: 13 Nov 09 - 02:28 PM

My two cents... nurse... toughest job there is short of soldier.

Subject: RE: BS: Why do all nurses need to have a degree?
From: Lox
Date: 13 Nov 09 - 02:29 PM

Why do all nurses need to have a degree? .....









......... To get to the other side ........


                                           .... I'll get my coat .....

Subject: RE: BS: Why do all nurses need to have a degree?
From: mg
Date: 13 Nov 09 - 02:31 PM

I think it is good for nurses to have 4 year degrees and advanced master's etc...nurse practitioners etc.

I also believe there should be many more opportuniities for those with a two year degree or even less to have important jobs in health care and we will need every one we will get ..with the nurses being the ones running the clinics etc. and others doing much of the patient care..as it is done now but more so. mg

Subject: RE: BS: Why do all nurses need to have a degree?
From: Becca72
Date: 13 Nov 09 - 02:49 PM

I think the qualities described in the opening post are more related to 'caregiver' than nurse. Nurses need to have a degree because they need to know as much if not more than the doctor in order to provide safe, quality patient care. They need to know what symptoms indicate and administered medications and such and for that you need education.

Subject: RE: BS: Why do all nurses need to have a degree?
From: Bill H //\\
Date: 13 Nov 09 - 03:00 PM

Whether a nurse needs a degree is predicated on the hospital or doctor's office policy.   It is also--in the U S --predicated on the various state rules. They all, however, do have to have a license to be an RN.

When you get down to it---leaving aside personality and character---the work is a technical thing in need of tech expertise and not the cultural and more esoteric matters a college degree would offer.

Bill Hahn

Subject: RE: BS: Why do all nurses need to have a degree?
From: Rasener
Date: 13 Nov 09 - 03:02 PM

Yes I understand that Becca.

So long as there are openings for many people who want to care and look after people who are ill, which doesn't need a degree, but does need common sense and rolling the sleeves up and getting on with it.

There are many people acting as carers for their beloved ones, who probably don't have any skills in the nursing side, but look after them with loving care and get a pittance. We need more of those sort otherwise we will end up with a top heavy organisation. The pen pushers and the doers.

I wonder wether we should make all carers get a degree before they can care for their beloved.

Subject: RE: BS: Why do all nurses need to have a degree?
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 13 Nov 09 - 03:38 PM

I *am* keeping to the point, Villan, if you don't mind.

I read that article in the paper today and it incensed me!

"Nurses need to have a degree because they need to know as much if not more than the doctor in order to provide safe, quality patient care. They need to know what symptoms indicate and administered medications and such and for that you need education. "

Nurses have always known 'as much if not more than the doctor'....and to be honest, I'd feel safer in a nurse's hands than a doctor's, because all day long they are dealing with patients at ground level, having far more experience and expertise to deal with a thousand different problems.

To make nurses take degrees is an insult...and it is one more dangerous step to total control in an already deeply controlling society.

Florence Nightingale and Edith Cavell must be turning over in their graves!

Subject: RE: BS: Why do all nurses need to have a degree?
From: Lox
Date: 13 Nov 09 - 03:48 PM

I have a friend who is studying to be a psychiatric nurse.

He needs to understand what different disorders there are and how those who suffer from them behave and need to be cared for.

Just marching in with sleeves rolled up and "common" sense would potentially be very damaging.

To explain why I would have to teach you about different disorders and how they have to be treated.

That's what my friend is learning.

Subject: RE: BS: Why do all nurses need to have a degree?
From: Wesley S
Date: 13 Nov 09 - 04:26 PM

Let me see the hands of everyone who wants their medications administed by a "nurse" without a degree....

I thought so.

While we're at it - why should brain surgeons have a silly degree?? I would think three months in a technical school of some sort would teach them everything they need to know.....

Subject: RE: BS: Why do all nurses need to have a degree?
From: artbrooks
Date: 13 Nov 09 - 04:39 PM

In the US there are:

Nurse Practitioners, who have Masters degrees and generally function as a independent practitioner, doing much the same as a GP physician. Nurse Midwives are a subset of the Nurse Prac.

Masters Degree Registered Nurses who function as specialists in such fields as infection control, nursing education and case management.

Registered Nurses with bachelors degrees (4-5 years) (most common), who perform the full range of nursing duties, including emergency room, operating room and critical care.

Registered Nurses with Associate Degrees (2 years), who do general nursing duties.

Registered Nurses with Diplomas who basically did an apprenticeship in a hospital. This program no longer exists, and diploma nurses are (literally) a dying breed.

Licensed Practical Nurses (Vocational Nurses in California and Texas) who go through a one-year program. Their scope of practice is limited; for example, most can issue medication in a hospital, but cannot start an IV.

Certified and Registered Nursing Assistants, who go through a 3-4 month program. They do most personal care duties, and are the ones who are most often seen in nursing homes.

Nursing Aids, who have very limited training.

Subject: RE: BS: Why do all nurses need to have a degree?
From: katlaughing
Date: 13 Nov 09 - 05:01 PM

There some other two year program in there, art, I am not sure what they call if, but my daughter in CT is takign the courses and will be allowed to administer shots when she is done. I though it would make her a nurse, but she says she'll be a "medical technician." When I trained as a nurses aid which took a full school year, nine months, there were Licensed Practical Nurses, LPNs, who had two year degrees and could give meds. They were just a cut above we NAs.

What I have seen, as a patient, and heard from nurses, is there are no NAs any more to do the work I used to do; that nurses must change sheets, bath, wipe bottoms, empty bedpans, etc. But, the one most important thing, imo, they don't do that we NAs did was give back rubs, just a simple back rub...if they'd implement them, again, as part of the evening ritual in hospital, I am sure many patients would be much comforted and sleep better. I had a head nurse who was a real stickler about that; she recognised the importance of healing touch, esp. when a person is scared and not feeling well. Medicine has really done a number on patients. After my heart surgery, they insisted I wear the CPAP at night. I need my hair braided in order to do so. Not one nurse would help me with my hair. I could not reach up as it hurt so badly. My daughter was at work and busy with her baby, Rog doesn't know how to braid. I finally asked a friend to come up and do it, then kept it in that same braid for the rest of the time I was there. It was such a simple thing and made me feel so dismayed and hurt when each one of them refused to help me, saying it wasn't their job. My hair was not dirty, in a nasty snarl or anything.

Sorry for the venting, but it did really bother me as I knew, as an aide, it would have been my duty and pleasure to help a patient with such a task, esp. the night after their chest had been cracked open!

Subject: RE: BS: Why do all nurses need to have a degree?
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 13 Nov 09 - 05:15 PM

Back rubs- In WW2, at the Army hospital I served with, I remember the young women who went around the wards and private rooms giving back rubs and other services that the patient couldn't do himself. Called nursing assistants, they wore pinkish garb rather than the whites or military drab that other workers wore.

A much appreciated service!

Subject: RE: BS: Why do all nurses need to have a degree?
From: Rasener
Date: 13 Nov 09 - 05:24 PM

By the sounds of it, it all comes down to classification.

If we are saying that a nurse is the highest level and must know how to administer drugs, monitor and do things that a doctor or consultant would do, then yes they do need a very good training. Should that be academic or practical or both.

However the bulk of the work in a ward is related to changing beds, helping patients etc. Does that work need a degree?
Is ther a level in Uk hospitals for this and are they exempt from having to get a degree?

Subject: RE: BS: Why do all nurses need to have a degree?
From: greg stephens
Date: 13 Nov 09 - 05:33 PM

There are, of course, people who now think folk singers should have degrees. There will soon be very little in the way of employment opportunities for people without a load of bits of paper.

Subject: RE: BS: Why do all nurses need to have a degree?
From: Becca72
Date: 13 Nov 09 - 05:41 PM

"Nurses have always known 'as much if not more than the doctor'....and to be honest, I'd feel safer in a nurse's hands than a doctor's, because all day long they are dealing with patients at ground level, having far more experience and expertise to deal with a thousand different problems."

Yes, Lizzie and they got that knowledge while obtaining their degrees...

As for "changing beds, helping patients, etc" that work hasn't been done by nurses in a long time, at least where I am from. That is the work of CNAs (Certified Nurse's Assistants) or MAs (Medical Assistants) which are still generally 2 year programs and require a "degree" or "certificate".

Subject: RE: BS: Why do all nurses need to have a degree?
From: EBarnacle
Date: 13 Nov 09 - 05:47 PM

Don't forget that we are also dealing with insurance companies and bureaucracies. Among other things, they hate the moment in any negligence trial when one of the attorneys turns to the witness and asks, "Do you have a professional license?" or "Have you taken the mandated ongoing educational courses to maintain your license on subject X?"

Questions like these strike fear into the hearts of hospital administrators because they can make an institution more vulnerable in liability cases. If a person has these qualifications, they and the institution are less vulnerable to lawsuit judgements based upon the question of whether the worker is qualified to do the job. They have the documentation

Subject: RE: BS: Why do all nurses need to have a degree?
From: Rowan
Date: 13 Nov 09 - 06:12 PM

In Oz, the training of nurses used to be by what seemed to be an extended apprenticeship system over 4 years; this allowed one to become a Registered Nurse and nurses always wore the badge of their training hospital. The most common types of further training were in the fields of Midwifery (a "Double Certificate" nurse usually took this route) and ICU (most of the "Triple Certificate" nurses I knew had these three) and these extra certifications each took two years' hospital training.

For the last two decades there has been a gradually increasing requirement that nurses undergo university education (towards a four year degree for the most basic requirements to become registered and the usual postgraduate system has provided the advanced training for specialist nurses; all training requires practicums. Those who only do a year's basic training are employed as State Enrolled Nurses (SENs) and perform all the basic tasks that keep the patients improving; any person now wishing to commence training for nursing is required to enrol in a university nursing degree course.

One of the advantages of a university education in an intensely vocational discipline is that it (usually but not universally) provides the graduate with an increased ability to learn, analyse, integrate, and generally make increasingly sophisticated judgements on matters relevant to the discipline. That isn't to say that those without a university education can't do such things, but you ought to be able to expect them, routinely, from those who have experienced a proper university education.

Cheers, Rowan

Subject: RE: BS: Why do all nurses need to have a degree?
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 13 Nov 09 - 06:20 PM

Changing sheets, etc., not done by registered nurses in Canada, but by a less-well trained level.

Subject: RE: BS: Why do all nurses need to have a degree?
From: GUEST,999
Date: 13 Nov 09 - 06:33 PM

There are degrees, certificates and licenses. They all mean different things although they are not all mutually exclusive.

Degrees are granted by degree-granting institutions. Certificates are usually granted by institutions other than universities although not always. Licenses are granted by licensing authorities which are usually not universities or colleges.

Subject: RE: BS: Why do all nurses need to have a degree?
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 13 Nov 09 - 07:02 PM

"Let me see the hands of everyone who wants their medications administed by a "nurse" without a degree....

I thought so."

Er...sorry sunshine, but most of us have been having **exactly** that for as long as we can remember.....and they have always done an excellent job!


"While we're at it - why should brain surgeons have a silly degree?? I would think three months in a technical school of some sort would teach them everything they need to know....."

Oh, purleeeze...!

Neuro surgeons fix brains.
Cardiac surgeons fix hearts.

Nurses.......fix PEOPLE!

This is insanity, total mind boggling, mind controlling insanity....and yes, Greg is spot on, because soon, none of us will be able to do anything without the 'correct' examination papers!

Yeesh!

I recall Phil Beer, a very long time back, marvelling at how these days you even need to have a degree to be a lighting engineer/sound engineer/roadie etc....saying that in his day, you simply learnt this as you went along and everyone got on just fine...

WE are The New Industry, just in case folks haven't realised it yet...and it starts from when we are children, tests, exams, results, tests, exams, results...

Well, nurses have been getting those 'results' for centuries, without any bloody bits of 'official' paper..

GeeZ!


Soon, you will need a degree to be a butcher, a baker, a candlestick maker and the whole of humanity will become so stressed out and so judgemental of one another, sniffing down their noses at those who do NOT have a degree as if they are something that's crawled out from under a stone.

I have a friend who was a nurse..and boy, was she damn bloody wonderful at it. No degree, but a full Nurse's training...You know guys, that 'stuff' where nurses get to go to Nursing College and they er..um..get to learn about people, about biology, about medicine, about what makes a heart tick, inside and out...and not just the bits labelled aortic and mitral valves, but the parts labelled souls too...

How disgustingly insulting to all nurses to insinuate that they have no idea what the f*ck they're doing because they don't have a Damn Degree after their name! When did we all lose the plot so badly that apparently we can no longer function without a degree after our names, because without that we are no longer whole???????????

I tell you this, there's one helluva lot of people out there WITH degrees who don't seem to know what time of day it is! They can't add up, they can't write correctly, they can't even seem to form a proper sentence when they talk. I know this is because they have taken The Dumbed Down Degree where you only need to have around 40% to pass, but really....have we all become SO stupid as to believe that Nurses can't nurse without a degree?????????????????????


Beam me up, Scottie!

Subject: RE: BS: Why do all nurses need to have a degree?
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 13 Nov 09 - 07:11 PM

Most degrees are no longer worth the paper they're written on, but those who print the paper don't want you to know this.

So...shhhhhhhhh....don't let on...else The Degree Industry may start to lose money...and then those who run it will all be having heart attacks and may have to end up being nursed by an ANWAD (A Nurse Without A Degree) who should of course, refuse to take care of them, because 'they' don't believe any Nurse can possibly nurse without their piece of official paper....but Nurses ain't like that so 'they' will still get Incredible Care and Attention, and who knows, they may just find their heart attacks have changed their hearts for the better...


To Degree or not to Degree?
That is the question.....

Subject: RE: BS: Why do all nurses need to have a degree?
From: Ebbie
Date: 13 Nov 09 - 07:12 PM

:However the bulk of the work in a ward is related to changing beds, helping patients etc. Does that work need a degree?
Is ther a level in Uk hospitals for this and are they exempt from having to get a degree?" The Villan

The bulk of the physical work, perhaps, but even that is subject to the supervision of a higher classification.

Suppose that a person has had or needs traumatic back surgery. You do not want an untrained - even if well-meaning - person coming in and rolling the petient around as she or he might everyone else.

"The buck stops here." Right at the degreed nurse's desk, NOT on the back of the person with a certificate, valuable as that person is.

Subject: RE: BS: Why do all nurses need to have a degree?
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 13 Nov 09 - 07:20 PM

"Suppose that a person has had or needs traumatic back surgery. You do not want an untrained - even if well-meaning - person coming in and rolling the petient around as she or he might everyone else."


Excuse me, but er....like....er...Nurses are properly TRAINED to deal with all situations such as these. You can't just walk in off the street and be a nurse, you have to er...like..er...have 'training'...yer know...like...

The Royal College of Nursing should be up in arms about this, and should be telling Patronising Politicians who have their fingers stuck inside Degree Developing HoneyMoneyPots that they are completely up their own arses!

Subject: RE: BS: Why do all nurses need to have a degree?
From: artbrooks
Date: 13 Nov 09 - 07:34 PM

This from the Royal College of Nursing (aka nurses' union):

It is possible to take either a diploma or degree course to qualify as a nurse. Education is provided by universities, with placements in local hospital and community settings. The course is 50 per cent theory and 50 per cent practical. The first year is a Common Foundation Programme, which will introduce you to the basic principles of nursing. You will then specialise in either adult, children's, mental health or learning disability nursing. Full time diploma courses last three years. Degree courses last three or four years.

Subject: RE: BS: Why do all nurses need to have a degree?
From: Folkiedave
Date: 13 Nov 09 - 07:42 PM

Lizzie, just as a matter of interest I thought you said (with some pride I thought) your daughter was studying for an Open University Degree on her own about the History of Art?

Now have you told her Most degrees are no longer worth the paper they're written on, but those who print the paper don't want you to know this.

Have you given your daughter the benefit if your theories? No need to answer this - I suspect we all know. No contradiction there then.

Subject: RE: BS: Why do all nurses need to have a degree?
From: Geoff the Duck
Date: 13 Nov 09 - 07:47 PM

I was intending to contribute to this discussion, but then it turned into the usual Cornish swearfest and I thought "Why Bother"?
Quack!
GtD.

Subject: RE: BS: Why do all nurses need to have a degree?
From: mg
Date: 13 Nov 09 - 07:49 PM

It is true that a lot of jobs don't really require technical or university training..but there are some standards that can be described and met and you more or less know what you are getting if you get an LPN from Lower Columbia College..whereas it would be more difficult to ascertain that from other sources.

In US we have fantastic community and technical colleges..people do turn down their noses at them..but they are the quickest way out of poverty for many people and very important for all concerned. If I were hiring someone, I would prefer that they had a certificate in automotive repair or nursing or computer technology even though I would realize they could have very well acquired those skills elsewhere. It would just make it easier for me and I think ultimately for many, not all of them. mg

Subject: RE: BS: Why do all nurses need to have a degree?
From: Ed T
Date: 13 Nov 09 - 07:53 PM

In many parts of Canada, there is a shortage of RN's. So, the licensed practical nurses (LPNs) as Joe refers to are now taking over many of the former tasks of RNs. This includes giving medication, IVs, needles etc. The non specialized RNs, tend to be supervisors. A problem is, unlike with the case with RNs from the past generation, who did not have degrees, and could upgrade as an adult (some credit given for past training and experience, the LPNs do not have this option.

I expect that the LPNs will ask for more salary, with the added responsibilities.

Subject: RE: BS: Why do all nurses need to have a degree?
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 13 Nov 09 - 08:01 PM

"Lizzie, just as a matter of interest I thought you said (with some pride I thought) your daughter was studying for an Open University Degree on her own about the History of Art?

Yup, she is. Good to see you have your 'Cross Referencing Lizzie' book out. I've no problem if she wants to do a degree or if she doesn't. I don't judge her on that.

"Now have you told her Most degrees are no longer worth the paper they're written on, but those who print the paper don't want you to know this."

Yup, I sure have. She knows it too. However, she researched the OU and decided she'd love to study things in even more depth, purely for the love of learning. She does this as and when she can afford it, so she'll have no debts at the end of it all. She's very clued up on the fact that it more than likely won't get her a better job, but Nonny loves to learn, always has done, always will do, it's been there since she was born, that natural desire and she's doing it for that reason, not because she's being 'told' to do it.

She'd never judge a nurse on whether she had a degree or not though, because she has the intelligence to know just how wonderful our nurses are, and that the best nurses are those who've years of experience, not those just out of University with bits of paper that so often mean nothing anymore.

My daughter's an intelligent person, Dave. I expect you'll soon have to start a Cross Reference book for her too.

Subject: RE: BS: Why do all nurses need to have a degree?
From: Folkiedave
Date: 13 Nov 09 - 08:19 PM

Now have you told her "Most degrees are no longer worth the paper they're written on, but those who print the paper don't want you to know this."

Yup, I sure have.

Your daughter is studying for an OU degree and you told her it wasn't worth the paper it is written on?

Wow.....................!!!!

Subject: RE: BS: Why do all nurses need to have a degree?
From: katlaughing
Date: 13 Nov 09 - 11:56 PM

That's enough,you two.

kat - mod

Subject: RE: BS: Why do all nurses need to have a degree?
From: Rasener
Date: 14 Nov 09 - 03:45 AM

Thanks Kat.

As I said in my opening post
No flaming or being offensive to anybody please. This is a very emeotional subject. Stick to nursing.

Subject: RE: BS: Why do all nurses need to have a degree?
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 14 Nov 09 - 04:19 AM

Well in the effort to get me to hang myself with my own rope, Dave, as you keep trying so hard to do, you've missed my point entirely.

I already know my daughter is highly intelligent, so does anyone else who knows her, or talks to her. She doesn't need a degree to prove that to me. She is taking it for the right reasons, because she loves her subject and wants to learn more. My daughter chose to not take GCSEs or A Levels. She has chosen to do an Art History Degree. Both are her choices, both are OK by me, but it is *her* choice, not anyone else's. There will of course now be people who will view her differently, when she gets her degree, because they have been brainwashed into thinking that without that piece of paper, she is a lesser person. She isn't.



No Nurse, in my opinion, needs a degree to be a Nurse. They are already highly and specifically trained, and I would be happy to put my life and my children's lives in their hands, indeed I have done exactly that in my life, as have millions of us.

It was a nurse who saved my son's life when he was just a few hours old. She saved his life twice over.

Did I ask her, before she picked my baby up....and RAN for the first time in her 25 year career down to the medical room, (because he'd gone bright blue and was minutes away from dying) if she had a degree or not???????? No, of course I bloody didn't! I heard her say "QUICK! FOLLOW ME!" and I ran after her, as fast as I could.

I thanked her from the bottom of my heart, minutes later, when I saw her saving my child's life. I thanked her again over the next few nights when she did exactly the same thing....sitting with him all night long, in turn with her colleagues, whilst I slept, to ensure he was safe.

I thanked another Nurse a few years later, when he was 4 years old, who sat with me at his bedside, keeping vigil over him in his comatose state when he was so desperately ill with The Virus From Hell.....and I didn't give a f*ck if she had a degree either, because once again, she knew exactly what she was doing and she cared, deeply deeply cared, as has every other Nurse I've ever met.

And the reason my son nearly died when he was a newborn??????

Well, the money counters, who probably HAD degrees in Accountancy and How To Be A Complete Uncaring, Unfeeling, Dull-Witted, Mercenary B*stard, had stopped midwives having pipettes, with which they used to suck all the 'gunge' out of a new born baby's lungs, seconds after they were born.

This saved them lots of pennies you see.

Pennies!

'No Pipettes = More Pennies For Us'

But it nearly cost my son his life.

*Pennies, Pipettes and Prats* nearly cost my son his life.

A Nurse saved him.

And what happened to him.....

Well, I'd put him back in his cot to sleep and had taken my contact lenses out, settled down to sleep. The Nurse came to do her rounds, looked at Josh and realised how desperately urgent the situation was. I hadn't noticed he was blue because my eyes were closed.

She had never run in her whole career, was trained not to, but she knew he was in a perilous situation. She had a special machine with which to clear his lungs...yes, another item the Degreed Ones had taken out of the Delivery Rooms throughout that hospital....and so she was able to save him, but it took her a while. She kept him with her the next three nights, because she just 'had a feeling'.....and once again, on the first of those two nights, it was 'all systems go' when he went blue yet again.

She told me she'd never been so frightened in her life about losing a baby...and she told me how bloody angry she was too, with the prats who make these decisions, who have NO idea about medical facts or what can happen when money pinching idiots make stupid, irresponsible decisions about vital medical equipment and procedures.

Josh was my fourth baby, as two other souls hadn't made it the full way to this world...and part of me had almost resigned myself to him dying too. Without that wonderful Nurse, he would have. I slept with him beside my bed, my hand on his chest as he breathed, for the next 6 months.

When I lost both my second and third babies, it was Nurses (and the head Radiologist) who held me, helped me through it all.   The faceless doctor did his part, and was never seen again, but it was the nurses and the rest of the team who pulled me through. I really didn't give a pig's ear who had degrees and who didn't.

To infer that without The Blessed Degree they would not have been there for me in *exactly* the same way, not known *exactly* what to do, is deeply insulting and completely idiotic.

Nurses are out there keeping both patients and hospitals going, as they always have been.





A Degree once meant something, because those who took them were the Creme de la Creme of brains. They didn't just 'scrape through', but sailed through, usually with mind boggling pass rates. Some still do exactly that.

But to have this crazy system in place where almost *everyone* is being expected, bullied and brainwashed into, taking 'a degree' when the pass rate for those degrees is being lowered all the time....sometimes to 40%..is insanity.

ONCE a Degree *really* meant something. Now, they are a dime a dozen, because they have become Big Business....and THAT is what this is all about.

They are 'sold' to the public in *exactly* the same way that Insurance is sold, through Fear. Young people think that without a Degree they won't get a good job. Two to three years later, deeply in debt, they suddenly work out that...doh...they have 'the degree' but er..can't seem to find 'the job'....because there ain't the jobs out there..and a degree in 'football management' or 'how to win at X Factor' doesn't get you very far. They have been sold a dream and those who sold it to them are long gone, back to their mega rich lifestyle.


And now The Businessy Ones will create a situation where people will be thinking "Oh my God, that nurse *doesn't* have a degree! She is shite stooooopid! Keep her away from me!"

Clever, huh?

What is most worrying though, for me, is not the prats who have thought this whole 'business' up, but the dumbed down prats who have chosen, of their own free will, to believe all this crap. As I said, many of those prats have taken the 'I'm So Dumbed Down You'd Not Believe It!' Degree, which they've sadly passed, with Honours, giving them an MA in Stupidty after their name.

Give our Nurses the respect they deserve.

Subject: RE: BS: Why do all nurses need to have a degree?
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 14 Nov 09 - 04:20 AM

Yes, it is an emotional subject, Villan..and a very important one too.

Subject: RE: BS: Why do all nurses need to have a degree?
From: Gurney
Date: 14 Nov 09 - 04:25 AM

The times, they are a-changing.
From memory, English nurses used to go initially to a training hospital, and thence to on-the-job training, starting off doing the scut-work that ward-maids do nowadays. They were closely supervised by more experienced ladies (all nurses were female in those days) as they worked their way up the ladder, being promoted entirely on merit and by their superiors. Their academic classes were taken by very senior nurses.
Like Lizzie, I can't see much wrong with this system. It did weed out the unsuitable personalities, at the very least, and they were promoted by people who saw them at work!
I seem to remember a big training hospital in Nottingham. Lots of lovely girls about, there, then.
Joe Offer, a few years ago in NZ/Australia/Britain, foreign-trained doctors, including American, had to be passed to English standards before they are allowed to practice, because that was regarded as the highest! I know one American-trained surgeon who found it VERY hard to requalify.
Don't know how it works now.

Subject: RE: BS: Why do all nurses need to have a degree?
From: DMcG
Date: 14 Nov 09 - 04:54 AM

Wesley said: Let me see the hands of everyone who wants their medications administed by a "nurse" without a degree....

Artbrooks quoted Royal College of Nursing:
It is possible to take either a diploma or degree course to qualify as a nurse... The course is 50 per cent theory and 50 per cent practical... Full time diploma courses last three years. Degree courses last three or four years.
----
I DO want nurses to be appropriately qualified. I do not accept that a degree is the only, or necessarily the most appropriate, qualification.

Subject: RE: BS: Why do all nurses need to have a degree?
From: Folkiedave
Date: 14 Nov 09 - 06:00 AM

Sorry, there is a bit of thread drift here.

Kat I don't particularly want to carry this on - but I do think I may be allowed a right of reply.

To put this into some sort of context, I did my degree as a mature student, between the ages of 36 and 39. Most mature students in my experience (over twenty years of it) do it for the love of learning and not for any particular vocational aspirations. As you might imagine with that background I place great value on education at all levels for everyone.

That has included people doing it for vocational reasons, people doing it for love of learning and those who for whatever reason had not followed the traditional route of school/"A" levels/University. None of my mature students had traditional qualifications,(if they had them they couldn't get on the course) many had specific learning difficulties (such as dyslexia) and one, and I have referred to him before, was quadriplegic and needed 24 hour care.

Each one of those students worked extremely hard to get their degrees, many of them making enormous financial sacrifices and many of them received unbelievable support from partners and (often) family. The quadriplegic student had as you may imagine not only had to work hard but got amazing support from all sorts of people from those who fed him to those who maintained his complex technical support, to his wonderfully supportive parents and their belief in him, to help him to achieve his goals.

And then along comes Lizzie denigrating the value of those sacrifices and achievements and telling all who care to listen that the degrees they had all worked so hard for are not worth the paper they are written on.

Her own daughter - she tells us - is working for an OU degree.

Anyone who has done this at any level, saving money to pay for it, giving up time when they could be doing loads of other things and choosing instead to study, any one who has done that will know what sacrifices have to be made to achieve an OU degree.

And Lizzie tells her own daughter that degrees aren't worth the paper they are written on.

Yesterday as I was in the centre of Sheffield and I happened to be passing the City Hall as the SHU degree ceremony came out, with hundreds of students clutching their pieces of paper and their parents and in the case of mature students partners, sharing in their success.

What a shame Lizzie will never experience that pride in achievment with her own daughter or son, choosing instead to shout "Not worth the paper it is written on".

Subject: RE: BS: Why do all nurses need to have a degree?
From: Folkiedave
Date: 14 Nov 09 - 06:04 AM

And as far as the main thread is concerned - if the Royal College of Nursing believe - with all their knowledge and experience in this field, that a degree is necessary nowadays because of the complexity of modern day nursing, I am inclined to go along with them.

Subject: RE: BS: Why do all nurses need to have a degree?
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 14 Nov 09 - 06:27 AM

In what way will a Nurse With A Degree differ from A Nurse Without A Degree?

And how will you know the difference?

Will they have a Badge? Will they 'look' different? Will they have a funny walk? Will they be wearing a different uniform?

And what will you do if the *only* Nurse available to save yours or your child's life doesn't *have* a bloody degree?

Hmmmmmm.....?

I know! We can stick them in different outfits!

One with "Hey, I have a Degree so I know everything there is to know about being a Nurse, even though I've only just come out of University! Yes, *I* am a complete SUCCESS!" on...

And the other ones can wear outfits which say "Hey, I've been a Nurse all my life, saved countless lives, wept countless tears, held countless hands as they've passed over. I have a vast knowledge of every medical situation under the sun....but I don't have a DEGREE.
So therefore, I am a complete FAILURE!. Yes, I am a Nurse of a Lesser God!"

Sheesh!


Dave, you wanna undermine, twist or insult anything else I have to say, then damn well PM me and stop boring everyone rigid with your Lizzie Obsession.

Or maybe, you should see a Nurse about it? You know, one who's properly qualified, in your eyes.

Subject: RE: BS: Why do all nurses need to have a degree?
From: GUEST,Ed
Date: 14 Nov 09 - 06:55 AM

Lizzie Cornish,

You are utterly mad.

Ed

Subject: RE: BS: Why do all nurses need to have a degree?
From: Spleen Cringe
Date: 14 Nov 09 - 07:27 AM

What do people think nurses are? Does anyone believe they walk in off the streets with no skills, knowledge or experience and get the job because they are nice people? All Registered General Nurses and Registered Mental Nurses in the UK are qualified to do the job. In the past they did a two year diploma. Nowadays they are doing a three year degree. It's about ensuring they have the skills and knowledge. The experience still builds up on the job as a result of practical application of the skills and knowledge.

I am a manager of a mental health team. We take nursing students on placement throughout the year. They are studying for their nursing degree. However, to say that the existence of the degree (which is not new but has been around for some years, by the way) is moving nurses from the realms of the practical to the realms of academia is pure hyperbole. A large percentage of the time spent at college is spent on practical placements on wards and community teams, where nursing students have to satisfactorily demonstrate they have gained the competencies to carry out their duties safely and effectively. Whilst they are on placement they are mentored by experienced nurses working on the team they are attached to and who have completed training in mentoring. They also recieve supervision from the college.

More and more degrees are vocational rather than academic and the nursing degree is an example of that.

In mental health, nurses need to know a great deal about medication management and administration. They are the ones with day-to-day responsibility for the care of patients, who in the community might only see their psychiatrist every three to six months. This level of responsibilty requires adequate training and skills, which is what the degree provides. To work on my team, nurses need to have at least a diploma and preferably a degree along with a minimum of two years post-qualifying experience and must be able to demonstrate evidence of continuous professional development on the job. For my service users I wouldn't settle for anything less. We don't want nurses who think they know it all and have nothing left to learn, because they are usually the dangerous ones, the jobsworths and the incompetent.

Many psychiatric nurses then go on to do further training either part time whilst working or full time. They are often the most forward thinking and dynamic of mental health practitioners and recognise the importance of life long learning and professional development in order to provide the best possible service to patients. On my team I have nurses who have trained as independent nurse prescribers, cognitive behavioural therapists, family intervention therapists, motiovational enhancement therapists, and so on. I have nurses who have contributed to research projects that have led to improved practice and enhanced patient care. I have a friend - not on my team -who has studied in his own time for a phD in nursing, is a nurse consultant who runs a groundbreaking service for people with severe mental illness and drug problems, who has in the past won the Nurse of the Year award for his work. Yet he is still a man who holds regular clinics doing face-to-face work with patients many would have written off as beyond help. This didn't come about simply through him being caring (which he is) and well meaning, but also through being hardworking and understanding the value of ongoing education. He is also a good example of why the academic and the practical are not mutually exclusive.

Nusing auxillaries (and in the community, support workers and recovery workers) still provide a lot of the hands-on practical support patients need and they perform a vital function. However they do not do this in isolation, but in partnership with highly trained and specialised nursing colleagues. And even so, the auxillaries are still expected to attend and benefit from training and professional development. One of the best ones on my team has left his job this year to train - ant the age of 40- as nurse. We're really proud of him, but he says it is working on a team that values learning that has given him the confidence to study for the first time since he left school 24 years ago.

Nusing degrees? As an insider I say absolutely. Anything to continue to raise standards.

Subject: RE: BS: Why do all nurses need to have a degree?
From: Will Fly
Date: 14 Nov 09 - 07:52 AM

Spleen - as ever - enormous common sense and a valuable insight into the real nursing profession.

I have to add that, after working in Higher Education for 30+ years, to dismiss degrees as bits of paper and the issuers of degrees as printers of money is a bit of an insult to all my ex-colleagues (I'm retired) who continue to dedicate huge chunks of their lives to educating people as well as they possibly can. These colleagues are dedicated and hard-working - especially so in the health professions, where not only the student workloads but also the demands of the professional institutes and authorities are very high.

I don't believe that every sphere of working activity has to have the background of a degree, but I do believe that the better educated our country is - the more that people can use logic, reason and brainpower to make sense of the world around them - the better our society as a whole will be.

Subject: RE: BS: Why do all nurses need to have a degree?
From: Edthefolkie
Date: 14 Nov 09 - 08:15 AM

Wesley wrote:

"Let me see the hands of everyone who wants their medications administed by a "nurse" without a degree....I thought so. While we're at it - why should brain surgeons have a silly degree?? I would think three months in a technical school of some sort would teach them everything they need to know....."

Sorry, but that's a patronising load of old cobblers. See above posting by Spleen Cringe who puts it better than I could.

My RGN (formerly ITU honcho) wife, my RGN sister, and many of my RGN friends have been saving the lives of people like Wesley for many years now, not to mention saving the careers of certain doctors! And for thanks they get....back injuries, stress, physical attacks in casualty wards and elsewhere, endless bumf and increased subscriptions from the professional bodies - and wiseass comments of course.

Nurse - the enema, right now!!

Subject: RE: BS: Why do all nurses need to have a degree?
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 14 Nov 09 - 08:58 AM

"What do people think nurses are? Does anyone believe they walk in off the streets with no skills, knowledge or experience and get the job because they are nice people? All Registered General Nurses and Registered Mental Nurses in the UK are qualified to do the job..."

Exactly. So why this need to change things?



"In the past they did a two year diploma. Nowadays they are doing a three year degree. It's about ensuring they have the skills and knowledge. The experience still builds up on the job as a result of practical application of the skills and knowledge."

But, they had the skills and knowledge with the two year diploma. Or am I missing the blindingly obvious?

What difference does the apparently magic 'degree' word have to do with it?


Will, allegedly, our country has never been so 'better educated' and yet we have a nation of people who can't seem to put coherent, common sensed thoughts together, let alone write, let alone add up, let alone think deeply. Obviously, I am generalising here, but never have we lived in such a tested, examined, qualified society, yet never have we lived in such a Dumbed Down Age.

Edukashon is very different to Learning.

Nurses have always been wonderful. A degree will not make *more* wonderful.

And will someone **please** tell me how I'll be able to spot the difference between the Degreed and the Non-Degreed Nurse?

Subject: RE: BS: Why do all nurses need to have a degree?
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 14 Nov 09 - 09:04 AM

<<<
You are utterly mad.

Ed>>>



I would rather be 'mad' and still be able to think logically, than have given in to believing that a Nurse is not a 'proper' Nurse without a degree. It's crap.

Who's next for The Degree Requirement?   

Policemen?
Firemen?
Ambulance Drivers?
Paramedics?

I mean, come on, let's forget they're out there all day, every day, saving people's lives. Hell, what's the good in that if they've not been properly 'stamped' on the Conveyer Belt of Life with 'Degree Taker'.

And why stop with our Emergency Services...Let's go all out for it. Let's have Dustmen with Degrees too, because then, the Councils won't be able to try and cut their wages, saying they're 'non-skilled'...and whilst we're on the subject, should Councillors have Degrees too? Yes, preferably ones in 'How Not To Waste Public Money' but methinks they'd not be wanting to take *that* degree!   

Poliiticians could be forced to take an Honesty Degree, with Honourable Honours..but I think they'd mostly fail that one.

Stop trying to make everyone take degrees. It's non-sensical.

Subject: RE: BS: Why do all nurses need to have a degree?
From: GUEST,Tunesmith
Date: 14 Nov 09 - 09:16 AM

You might as well ask why anyone needs a degree! Why do doctors and engineers need a degree? Why do all new teachers, these days, need a degree? Surely, they can learn all they need to know with "hands on" experience in the classroom. Or maybe not!

Subject: RE: BS: Why do all nurses need to have a degree?
From: Rasener
Date: 14 Nov 09 - 09:27 AM

Thank you Spleen for a well balanced answer to the thread title.

So it would seem that practical, rather than academic training is given in order to acheive the degree. I am all in favour of that.

Subject: RE: BS: Why do all nurses need to have a degree?
From: artbrooks
Date: 14 Nov 09 - 09:49 AM

Assuming for the sake of the discussion that it's similar to nursing training in the US, it is a combination of academic and practical. For example, University-level nursing schools will have a year-long program called, usually, Anatomy and Physiology. Students will learn, in the classroom, the location and function of every bone, muscle and nerve. Then they get to go and play in the dissection lab. This is, btw, just about the same class that other degreed medical professionals (occupational and physical therapists, for example) and medical students take.

Subject: RE: BS: Why do all nurses need to have a degree?
From: Spleen Cringe
Date: 14 Nov 09 - 09:51 AM

"Am I missing the blindingly obvious?" Lizzie asked.

Possibly. Three years as opposed to two years training, with more practical placements and more opportunity to learn in greater depth has to better better for all of us, doesn't it? The same also applies to occupational therapy and social work which are also now three year degree courses with a large practice-based component. I really can't understand why anyone would have a problem with this. Nurses benefit, patients benefit and the NHS benefits.

The Villan: a pleasure, mate!

Subject: RE: BS: Why do all nurses need to have a degree?
From: mandotim
Date: 14 Nov 09 - 10:10 AM

Lizzie, you have a rare gift for inflaming a situation with your intemperate and grossly ill-informed views. The question posed was 'do nurses need degrees?'. The answer is at the moment that you can be a qualified nurse with either a diploma or a degree, although the trend for the last ten years at least has been towards nurses with degrees. (How do I know? I teach nurses as part of their degree courses.)
Nursing as a profession has changed radically in the last twenty years or so. Much of the physical care carried out on the wards is now done by what used to be called 'unqualified' staff, with titles like 'Nursing Auxiliary' etc. In practice these staff are also required to have qualifications, usually NVQ to level two or three. (These qualifications allow staff to bridge the gap into formal graduate nurse training too, unlike the 'good old days' when you had to stay as a Nursing Auxiliary unless you had 5 GCE O levels and usually a couple of A levels too). How do I know this? 20 years in the NHS, plus my younger daughter is currently working her gap year as a Nursing Auxiliary. As a consequence of this change, qualified nurses now carry out much more technical work, including assessment of patients, planning of treatment, minor surgery, prescribing of simple drugs, pain management using high-tech approaches and so on. The amount of knowledge required to perform effectively in the role has increased exponentially, and the purpose of the 'all-degree' approach is to ensure that those entering the profession have a sufficient level of knowledge and intellectual ability to cope with the increased demands of the job as it is now, not as it used to be.
You should also bear in mind that the pressure to make this change came not from the supposed faceless bureaucrats and politicians that you plainly despise; it came almost exclusively from the nursing profession themselves. It has been discussed endlessly at Royal College of Nursing conferences over the years, and nurses at all levels have shown themselves to be overwhelmingly in favour. The degree courses, furthermore, are not exclusively academic; they are much more akin to the old 'sandwich' courses, where periods of study are interspersed with placements where the student can acquire practical experience.
One last thing; nurses who currently practice with a Diploma rather than a degree will not be disadvantaged in any way by this; they will carry on as before, and if they wish to increase their level of qualification they will be given time and funding to do so.

I hope these facts will inform this discussion. Lizzie, it really would be nice if occasionally you would engage your brain before ranting on about subjects you plainly know little or nothing about. Leave that to journalists at the Daily Mail, they've had more practice.

Subject: RE: BS: Why do all nurses need to have a degree?
From: Marion
Date: 14 Nov 09 - 10:24 AM

I'm a registered nurse in Ontario, Canada. A few years ago the law changed that new nurses need degrees, but there was a grandfather clause so diploma nurses already working didn't have to go back to school.

I did a degree myself, in one of the two year "second entry" programs for people with previous degrees and science background. On the whole it was a very distasteful experience.   While I'm glad that nursing education has grown out of the days that nursing students were basically the hospital's slaves, I think there's been a major wrong turn away from practical training and towards theory. Virtually nothing that I heard in a classroom was in any way useful in how to take care of sick people. It was all about "the meaning of illness in the human journey" and "the caring model vs. the helping model" and how to write an abstract or research proposal or use APA format.

While I did manage to learn a few useful things, it was all from the clinical rotations, not the classes. And while clinical rotations are a start, there just wasn't enough to really get competent in anything - really, we learned that techniques existed, not how to do them. I graduated and started working feeling that I didn't know anything - I didn't even feel comfortable with IVs (and I'm not talking about venipuncture here... I mean, I didn't know how to prime a line without getting it full of bubbles). And to be clear, I was a good student... passed the boards on first writing, and was invited to join the Sigma Theta Tau "Honour Society of Nursing" (basically a club for people who got As in nursing school to pat each other on the back...).

So how did I learn to be a nurse? At work. My hospital orientation included four weeks of classroom training before going onto the floor, then a period of one-on-one apprenticeship with a senior nurse. When I was officially "oriented" and had my own patient assignments, I was still very dependent on pestering the nurses around me for information and for help with procedures. Fortunately, it's commonly understood on the job that nursing school has become bullshit and that you learn by experience... so the senior nurses know that you're new and need help. Now that I have a couple of years experience, I definitely consider it part of my job to help the newer nurses.

A few people have raised the issue of what roles belong to what kind of caregivers, so I'll tell you that in my part of the world, this is very dependent on the institution. As a student, I visited a nursing home where the RNs were managers, the RPNs administered the drugs, and the PSWs (Personal Support Workers) did all the personal care. I also visited a psychiatric hospital where RNs and RPNs filled almost identical roles for very different salaries (I think intramuscular injections had to be done by RNs). I'm currently working at a prestigious research/teaching/tertiary hospital that doesn't hire RPNs or PSWs at all; and yes, I do change my patients' bedding myself.

Subject: RE: BS: Why do all nurses need to have a degree?
From: GUEST,Tunesmith
Date: 14 Nov 09 - 10:43 AM

Of course, a nursing degree course must have the correct balance between "hands-on" and theory. Like teaching, nobody would believe that you could train to be a good teacher without spending a lot of training time in the classroom. But degrees do - or should - raise the value of teachers in the eyes of the general public.

Subject: RE: BS: Why do all nurses need to have a degree?
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 14 Nov 09 - 10:58 AM

"Am I missing the blindingly obvious?" Lizzie asked.

Possibly. Three years as opposed to two years training, with more practical placements and more opportunity to learn in greater depth has to better better for all of us, doesn't it? The same also applies to occupational therapy and social work which are also now three year degree courses with a large practice-based component. I really can't understand why anyone would have a problem with this. Nurses benefit, patients benefit and the NHS benefits.<<<<


They've been doing that for years and years, way back over 20years ago, when my best friend trained to be a Nurse. She went on to become a Staff Nurse, and a bloody good one at that...She has no degree, but could probably 'nurse' most newcomers out of the ward, so deep is her knowledge and her sense of caring.

Sorry. I totally disagree with you, Tim.

And thank you, but my brain is very fully engaged. That's half the problem.

Soon you won't be able to consider yourself a 'proper' folk singer without the Folk Degree of course...

Subject: RE: BS: Why do all nurses need to have a degree?
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 14 Nov 09 - 11:06 AM

From the very first post on here:


>>>I would agree that maybe senior ward nurses should have a degree, but the best nurses IMHO are the doers who don't have degrees. They have the basic skills to deal with people who are ill.

We are in danger of losing soem very fine nurses, who are not academics.<<<<

Exactly!


We are in danger of losing very many wonderful people, from all professions, because they do not want to bow and cowtow to those who demand that all should have degrees.

An Academic, Scientific World does not, and should not, take preference over a Healing, Spiritual one, but we are in grave danger of losing the plot completely, in my ever so humble, seemingly thick opinion.

When I am in trouble, I don't want some smart Uni kid coming at me with a syringe and a book. I want a Nurse who knows what she's doing, and has the empathy and compassion to know exactly how I am feeling inside. You cannot teach empathy and compassion from a book. It is either there, or it isn't.

Our Nurses have always been extraordinarily well trained and to suggest otherwise is sacrilege.

Degrees are a Business these days, and little else.

Subject: RE: BS: Why do all nurses need to have a degree?
From: richd
Date: 14 Nov 09 - 11:58 AM

Quite right too. What do we want these things like anaesthetics, painless dentistry, vaccination, antibiotics, drug therapies. ANYONE should be allowed to call themselves what ever they like and never have to prove anything. Close universities now. Send them all to an ashram. Education never did anyone any good. Why seek to end the ignorance of the the centuries. My Grannie was right. Flu can be prevented by the use of a sliced raw onion. Herbs aren't drugs and chemicals. It's all a plot by the 'scientists'. Nothing good ever came out of a book. I demand the right to have my teeth extracted by a bloke with a pair of pliers, and my mother to be cared for by a nice lady whose caring but isn't tainted by that nasty knowledge stuff. Everyone knows it just a con to make the smartareses feel clever. If I get cancer I'm going to refuse drug treatment and eat oranges and peach pits, 'cos i read about it on theinternet. I want my kids educated by a real old fashioned teacher. With a stick. You can keep your scientific advances. Fancy townie ways aren't for us. Granny know best. Om. That's right

Subject: RE: BS: Why do all nurses need to have a degree?
From: katlaughing
Date: 14 Nov 09 - 11:59 AM

What a lovely morning, waking up to this never-ending carping. Lizzie and FolkieDave, stop the personal attacks now. Second warning is all you get. You can discuss this without nasty references to each other or risk being deleted. No response is the best response.

kat - mod

Subject: RE: BS: Why do all nurses need to have a degree?
From: Spleen Cringe
Date: 14 Nov 09 - 12:15 PM

I'm not going to make a career our to of responding to Lizzie, but as someone who is proud to work alongside as caring, compassionate and empathic a group of nurses as you could wish to meet, I do feel obliged to respond to some of her opinions.

1. Nurses who have 20 years experience should be better at the job than nurses who are newly qualified. That is because they have had the opportunity to put their skills into practise for all those years. This is also why the more senior nursing staff tend to be more experienced. It certainly isn't an argument against a high standard of training for new nurses. You're not comparing like with like. However, you'll also find that many of the best of the experienced nurses have also made the most of continuing professional development, have been eager to accept training and wiling to embrace new ideas and developments in their field.

2. I have also had the misfortune to meet nurses with years of experience who I wouldn't employ if they were the last nurse on earth: resistant to change, don't think they need to learn anything, doing the bare minimum to retain employment, always cutting corners etc etc. Every profession has them and, frankly, if it was up to me I'd have them deregistered if they weren't prepared to do the job properly.

3. As Tim said, the main impetus for nurse training to change from a two year diploma to a three year degree has come from nurses themselves and the professional bodies that represent them.

4. If you want to talk about "kowtowing", Lizzie, you should look back to the bad old days when nurses were seen as little more than handmaidens to the all-important doctors, rather than skilled, highly trained and caring professionals in their own right.

5. Could I also suggest that the reason your friend has no degree is that nursing degrees weren't an option for most nurses twenty years ago? The job has changed and the training has changed to reflect that. I'd imagine your friend will be cool with that. If not, I'd want to know why not (especially if I was her boss!).

6. Also, you can't take the science out of nursing unless you take all human biology, medication management, operation of specialised medical equipment, monitoring, assessment and supervision of often seriously ill people and so on out of nursing. If nurses didn't do this, who would?

7. Most nurses wouldn't recognise their professional role in your wishlist about what their job should be about, Lizzie. It's a far more complex and demanding role than you seem to realise.

8. Good nurses combine knowledge and skills with compassion and empathy. Older nurses do not have the monopoly on this. To suggest that a three year as opposed to a two year course somehow drains new nurses of their capacity for empathy and compassion is deeply insulting to those nurses, not based on any kind of evidence and, frankly, absurd. You should also remember that every experienced nurse was once a newly qualified nurse. The whole point of extending and improving nurse training is to give new nurses the best possible start in their professional role.

I'm not going to add much more to this thread. I said what I wanted to say in my first post. Thankfully, it is mainly the nursing profession itself, and not the views of ill-informed members of the public that shapes and will continue to shape nursing.

Subject: RE: BS: Why do all nurses need to have a degree?
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 14 Nov 09 - 12:24 PM

Sorry, but that's a patronising load of old cobblers. See above posting by Spleen Cringe who puts it better than I could.

Ed the folkie, you obviously don't recognize irony.

Marion, I'm sorry that two year program you were in seemed so inadequate. I had the impression you were in a four-year program. At the university where I work there is a four-year nursing degree BS and a MS and Ph.D. offered, all in nursing. Yes, there is such a thing as a doctor of nursing. A nurse isn't like a lesser trained doctor, a nurse is trained in many similar ways, but doesn't branch as far into some of the specialties.

I often deal with the nurse practitioner at the doctor's office, when the doctor is booked but my complaint is something along the lines that the nursing folk are perfectly equipped to handle and prescribe for, if necessary. Last time I was in for a poison ivy rash, for example.

SRS

Subject: RE: BS: Why do all nurses need to have a degree?
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)
Date: 14 Nov 09 - 12:52 PM

I think there a level of subtext going on somewhere in this thread, that if Nurses are expected to be a little more 'academic' then they will somehow automatically 'lose touch' with not only the practical 'hands-on' side of the job, but also the human aspect of their role in patient care - and thus turn into icy robotic creatures with needles, like something out of Dr. Who.

There also seems to be some illusion that in 'the good old days' when Hattie Jacques was Matron, Nurses just hit the wards and 'knew' by some god-given maternal instinct their patients precise needs (a kinda homely cosy common-sense healing wisdom of 'You just have a nice cuppa tea, love and it'll be alright in the morning'.) That is dreadfully patronising and demeaning to the professionalism of Nurses for one thing, and also of course bollox for another.

I still have the dog-eared old tomes filled with indecipherable (to me) pharmacological Latinese, that my *Grandmother* (who was a senior psychiatric Nurse many decades ago), had to wade through in order to gain her Nursing qualifications back 'in the good old days' when she first began her Nursing career. It wasn't just a generic Mumsy figure with a nice cuppa tea, who emptied Grannies bed pan and made you feel 'secure' with military-precision bedsheets, even back then!

Subject: RE: BS: Why do all nurses need to have a degree?
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 14 Nov 09 - 01:00 PM

Well, why stop at 3 years, Nigel....? I mean, heck, let's make them study for 10 years, shall we?

All nurses were adequately trained within 2 years. That's how it was, how it used to be, and no-one batted an eyelid. If they did, the Nurse came and fixed it for them. It worked perfectly well. And yes, there will always be some nurses who aren't too good at their job, possibly because they thought they could simply 'study' to be a burse, when the whole point of it is that unless there is a Nurse 'inside' your Spirit in the first place, you aren't going to be a great one, no matter if you have Degrees falling out of your uniform.

Degreeology has gone beserk.

Kat....I never start the unpleasantness with you know who, and I asked him, above, to take it to PMing me. With due respect I'd appreciate it if you'd acknowledge that fact.

Subject: RE: BS: Why do all nurses need to have a degree?
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 14 Nov 09 - 01:01 PM

A burse?   Gee whizz, I hope they have degrees too! LOL

Subject: RE: BS: Why do all nurses need to have a degree?
From: Ebbie
Date: 14 Nov 09 - 02:52 PM

"hey are already highly and specifically trained, " But unless they had a degree, diploma or certificate of some kind, how would one know?

Degrees, et al, are simply a record keeping mechanism, affirming and verifying an individual's education.

What used to be an acceptable level of education after a period of two years' studying may well no longer be sufficient. Medicine and the understanding of health and its counterpart have advanced - or at least, changed - dramatically in the last generation.

Remember the days when an eighth-grade education was considered acceptable for most people? Remember when a high school diploma qualified you for almost any position of employment? Remember when a bachelor's degree in any field got you into just about any field?

Times have changed.

Subject: RE: BS: Why do all nurses need to have a degree?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 14 Nov 09 - 02:56 PM

Just like the GCSEs, AS and A Levels, that now fill the minds of young people, who think that without them they are not REAL people...

Total Corporate Crap..


How disappointing I never knew that exams were all just corporate crap. Must be terrible for all those people who have wasted 5 years of their lives just to get educated in corporate crap. Ah well, at least I know now. must be true becuae it says so here...

To get back to the real world though I think that the main thing a degree does is proves a commtment to work and study prior to actualy doing it 'for real' as it were. It is very difficult to show that you have a commitment to or aptitude for something if it is something you have never done before. Anyone seeing that an individual has buckled down for 2 years A levels and 3 years degree work will be more inclined to invest the time to give them a further few years training to perform the life or death tasks that the medical profession requires.

Whther the degree is related or not to the profession can be academic (pun intended) as whatever the qualification is in does in fact prove a commitment that people without degrees may have but cannot prove.

Cheers

DeG

Subject: RE: BS: Why do all nurses need to have a degree?
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 14 Nov 09 - 03:16 PM

All nurses were adequately trained within 2 years. That's how it was, how it used to be, and no-one batted an eyelid.

This is not true. There have always been professional four year nursing degrees around for nursing, at some very good schools. The fact that a 2 or 3 year program was more common or considered "adequate" doesn't mean the others weren't there and weren't better. They were, on both counts.

SRS

Subject: RE: BS: Why do all nurses need to have a degree?
From: mandotim
Date: 14 Nov 09 - 03:38 PM

Lizzie, if you have your whole brain engaged and still spout this twaddle, I'm surprised you're allowed out on your own. You don't listen do you? Ever? To anyone? Here's the gist of the argument again, for the hard of thinking;
- Nurses themselves have asked for a degree to be the standard qualification for their profession.
- The profession has changed greatly, and a higher standard of education is required for effective working as a nurse.
- Nursing degrees are both practical and academic, with a great deal of hands on experience built into the curriculum.
- Experienced nurses with no degree will still be there, this only applies to new entrants to the profession.
- Your comment about 'all nurses were adequately trained within two years'. No they weren't. Any nurse will tell you that they continued to learn in service via extensive training courses throughout their careers. Many specialised; becoming a District Nurse required a further two years, a Health Visitor the same. Most theatre nurses took many years before they were considered fit to scrub in for operations as a single nurse with a surgeon.
- The amount of clinical knowledge in the field of nursing doubles about every three years. The logical conclusion of this is that you need to know more in order to practice effectively. Experienced nurses have some of this knowledge due to their continuous in-house training, new entrants do not. Still with me? New entrants therefore have a higher threshhold of knowledge to attain before they can practice effectively on qualifying. To help them meet the higher threshhold, they are being asked to study for longer, and at a higher level. This study results in the award of a Degree in Nursing.

Finally, a question; nurses study very hard to acquire the skills necessary to provide care. Why should this hard work not be recognised by the award of a recognised qualification? What do you have against nurses that means they should be different to doctors, or lawyers, or architects or teachers? Their studies are at the same level, they work just as hard to achieve the level of qualification, so why not award a degree?

Subject: RE: BS: Why do all nurses need to have a degree?
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 15 Nov 09 - 12:23 PM

"Lizzie, if you have your whole brain engaged and still spout this twaddle, I'm surprised you're allowed out on your own. You don't listen do you? Ever? To anyone?"

Oh, you'd be surprised who I listen to, Timmando. Mostly those for whom I've the greatest respect.

Dealing with each of your points above in turn.....

Er...not ALL nurses, but some may have asked for this.

A high standard of education (and more importantly, intelligence) has always been required to be a nurse, so please don't be patronising to nurses.

Nurses have always had a 'hands-on' approach to their training...er..they use their hands a lot, to er...nurse their patients, and you ain't gonna learn that from a book.

Experienced nurses, with no degrees, will be sniffily looked down upon by those withh degrees. Luckily, some bright spark has thought about that problem and is trying to get the older non-degreed nurses degreed up, using their experience as...er...A DEGREE!   (yes, you couldn't really make it up, could you! Older nurses have just the right experience to gain degrees, in retro...as those now studying for the er...New Degree! HA!)

All nurses WERE trained to be er...nurses within the old two year courses. Of course things get updated and move on, or people choose to specialise in this or that. Geez, that happens if you're a chef, a councillor, a burglar, or a dustmen...Don't be so pedantic, please.

Just think, soon they'll have to study for 30 years to become nurses, because there'll be so much clinical knowledge that they'll spend their entire career in training.

Oh...and the organisation who deals with patients, isn't at all keen on this idea, because they feel that nurses will lose the very essence of what it is to be a nurse..and that is the caring ethic, which will somehow become lost within the scientific knowledge part..

And yes, I am allowed out on my own, but only for short periods of time..so I choose to spend those periods of time with people who are kind, intelligent, non-sniffy, non-patronising, and soooo definitely NOT prats.

Thankooooo.

Subject: RE: BS: Why do all nurses need to have a degree?
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 15 Nov 09 - 12:53 PM

...and do you ever spend time with professionals such as Mandotim and Spleencringe, who work in the industry and actually know about the current requirements of the industry, or is it just about your hysterical responses to things?

I suspect the latter.

Subject: RE: BS: Why do all nurses need to have a degree?
From: catspaw49
Date: 15 Nov 09 - 01:24 PM

Let me (stupidly) try for a little middle ground here.

There is no way to compare the skills and training needed today in medical fields to what was needed 25 years ago. This is as true for nurses as doctors and pharmacists and lab professionals, etc. The discoveries and developments in the field alongside the massive leaps in technology have made it almost impossible to keep up let alone enter the field without extensive training.

That's true in many professions today but we're discussing medicine here and it is definitely true there. As someone who has been on the receiving end, I have had many wonderful nurses take care of me as well as a few losers. I've had experienced nurses who were lousy and new nurses who were tremendous and vice versa. But if I were to develop a list of the very best I've had, they all were both experienced and well trained......and the worst were just the opposite.

But there is this too: I have never had a great nurse who didn't have a "feel" for the job.   Call it passion or whatever, they have something in their personalities which makes them excel. And another trait is the they have a personal knowledge of themselves that tells them where they do best.   I have a good friend who is a Cardio ICU nurse who wouldn't be caught dead on a floor. Earlier she had been an excellent ER & Trauma Room nurse and as she got older was ready to slow down but still liked the pressure that ICU nurses can also have.

On the other hand, on my last visit to the hospital I met the best pro floor nurse I have ever had. She had a head for case management, a great bedside manner with patients, and the ability to put all the computerized functions now used on the floors to work for her. She seemed to do about twice as much with half the effort and a smile and a laugh thrown in to boot!


Now the one thing that I would say is that nursing like so many other occupations needs someone to "play god" early on. While there is no doubt that almost anyone can be trained, there are some folks who shouldn't be. The two nurses above each were "nurses" before they started training. They had the "right stuff" and there was a place for each in the field. Some people don't and need to be directed in another direction.   I'd love to see that for teachers as well because a teacher with no passion for the job will suck no matter how much experience or training.

My 2 cents. Take it or fuck yourself.


Spaw

Subject: RE: BS: Why do all nurses need to have a degree?
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 15 Nov 09 - 01:57 PM

"The two nurses above each were "nurses" before they started training. "

"I'd love to see that for teachers as well because a teacher with no passion for the job will suck no matter how much experience or training."

I'll 'take it', thanks, spaw...


"...and do you ever spend time with professionals such as Mandotim and Spleencringe, who work in the industry and actually know about the current requirements of the industry, or is it just about your hysterical responses to things?"

Well, for 8 years I worked for 3 surgeons and a Cardiologist, organised their teams, spoke to, and knew, their nurses, have a friend who trained as a nurse, and she's a bloody good one too, a 'natural' who has helped so many patients in ways that aren't to be found in books. She knows many others who are nurses. I have a cousin who was a nurse and my Uncle's friend was one too, did her back in lifting patients, but still wanted to nurse, take care of others, wherever and whenever she was able...

So yes, I do know a few 'professionals'.....and I was the only Medical Secretary ever to be taken out for a 'Goodbye Meal' by The Wellington Hospital, because the medical staff there, in particular the NURSING staff, thought a great deal of me....

May I politely suggest that you choose the latter of Spaw's options?

Subject: RE: BS: Why do all nurses need to have a degree?
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 15 Nov 09 - 02:00 PM

Older nurses to be awarded degrees, due to their long experience...(possibly)

Subject: RE: BS: Why do all nurses need to have a degree?
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 15 Nov 09 - 02:04 PM

And from that link above:

FOR & AGAINST

For: 'It should be empathy not academia'

A senior hospital nurse with more than 15 years' experience believes that a degree is not necessary and in some cases could stop people from entering the profession.

The 34-year-old, who asked not be named, is a band 7 sister in a South London hospital, earning about £34,000 a year. She trained for three years at St Thomas' Hospital for a diploma, and spent 12 weeks in college and the remaining time on the wards as a team member.

"Nursing is all about caring and empathy — you can't learn that in a classroom; either you have it or you don't," she said.

Against: 'I feel professionally more equipped'

Babs Larrad, 42, upgraded her nursing diploma to a degree after studying a course run through the Open University. The achievement posed a considerable challenge, and at times felt too detached from the practicalities of a job that she has done since 1993.

"I'm not academic by nature, so I found it pretty tough at times, and some of it did not feel like it related to my day-to-day patient case load. But it has meant a great deal to me to get a degree. I feel professionally more equipped and I can broaden my horizons," she said. <<<<<<

Subject: RE: BS: Why do all nurses need to have a degree?
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 15 Nov 09 - 02:08 PM

And...from this link:

The Nursing Times



>>>Patient advocate hits out at all-graduate profession plans
12 November, 2009 | By Steve Ford

A leading patient advocate has said she is against plans for nursing in England to become an all-graduate profession.


The change, due to be completed by 2013, will move the profession even further away from providing compassion and dignity in care, according to the Patients Association director and former nurse Katherine Murphy.

Writing in The Times, Ms Murphy said the introduction of nursing degrees in the first place had "sent out all the wrong messages, as it has become more important to write about care than to give it".

"These new proposals make the situation worse," she added.

Ms Murphy said: "Since the introduction of Project 2000, which shifted training from the bedside to the classroom, nurses have lifted their eyes to the personal prizes of nurse specialisms and been allowed to ignore the needs of their sick, vulnerable and often elderly patients. Some no longer want to provide those basics.

"How can you begin to teach people how to treat patients with dignity and compassion in an academic setting," she said.<<<<

Subject: RE: BS: Why do all nurses need to have a degree?
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 15 Nov 09 - 02:10 PM

There are ALWAYS *two* sides to everything......

Anyway, I thought those who had chosen to take the second of spaw's options, may like to read those posts above to help pass the time...

Quick, Nurse! The Screens!

Subject: RE: BS: Why do all nurses need to have a degree?
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 15 Nov 09 - 02:15 PM

And here are both sides:

Taken from The Times Online



>>>Is a degree in bedside manner needed for nurses?Sam Lister
15 Comments
Recommend? (1)
We need to meet demands of the future

For: Peter Carter

Nursing is a profession for which demand is only going to increase. With an ageing population and more people suffering from long-term conditions, caring for patients is set to become as important to the health service as technological advances. With 200,000 nurses due to retire within the next ten years and the threat of cuts hitting frontline staff, something needs to change in how we bring people into the profession.

Nursing is an activity of the head, the heart and the hands. However, the fundamentals of patient care will remain the same when the profession moves to all-graduate entry. What will improve is that all future nurses will be given an education that will equip them to meet the demands of the future.

Related Links
New rules to say NHS nurses must have degree
This move is not about elevating the status of nurses, but about ensuring that there are enough nurses with the right skills to meet the demands of an increasingly complex health service.

Far from restricting entry to the nursing profession, we must ensure that the door continues to be as wide open as possible. Nursing cannot become a career only for people who have taken the traditional academic route, and the past experiences of nursing students who have often had previous careers will remain enormously valuable. More support should also be given to ensure that nobody drops out owing to financial or other pressures.

Patients should feel confident that the nurse of the future will be able to use their additional skills and experience to provide expert clinical care, to help patients to make the right choices and to deliver the fundamentals. Above all, we need a nurse education system which encourages the best entrants to pursue a career in care.

Dr Peter Carter, a former mental health nurse, is chief executive and general secretary of the Royal College of Nursing




They write about care rather than give it

Against: Katherine Murphy

The NHS must have good basic nursing at the heart of its care. If it does not, then all the high- tech care in the world is pointless. Worse, it costs us all more, because the basics of nursing care are dignity, compassion and, above all, safety. In their absence the costs of care soar because of infection rates, overblown bureaucracy to deal with complaints and endless form-filling at the nurses' station.

Our recent report, Patients not Numbers, People not Statistics, described heart- rending cases of inadequate patient care. It showed what happens when nurses focus on the wrong things and neglect fundamentals such as helping patients with feeding, bathing and using the toilet, or assisting those recovering from an operation to get back, quite literally, on their feet.

Patients and their families contacted us in their hundreds. They were angry that their final memories were of a loved one enduring appalling neglect.

Since the introduction of Project 2000, which shifted training from the bedside to the classroom, nurses have lifted their eyes to the personal prizes of nurse specialisms and been allowed to ignore the needs of their sick, vulnerable and often elderly patients.

Some no longer want to provide those basics. They are trained to be a graduate nurse and swallowed up by a bureaucratic system that does not recognise the care that patients should be receiving. Nothing about nurse training tells them they have got it wrong. How can you begin to teach people how to treat patients with dignity and compassion in an academic setting?

A degree has sent out all the wrong messages, as it has become more important to write about care than to give it. These new proposals make the situation worse. Yet a combined diploma and degree system leaves room to move up the hierarchy and enjoy career progress.

Katherine Murphy is a former nurse and director of the Patients Association <<<<<

Subject: RE: BS: Why do all nurses need to have a degree?
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 15 Nov 09 - 03:12 PM

Lizzie, every subject you discuss degenerates to hysteria, swearing, abuse and extremism. Regardless of who you briefly worked for many years ago (as a secretary/admin rather than a member of the nursing team, it should be noted), I would be more inclined to take note of the contributions from anyone who works currently at the coal-face, especially when their firsthand experience is expressed calmly and rationally. I suspect I am not alone.

Subject: RE: BS: Why do all nurses need to have a degree?
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 15 Nov 09 - 03:20 PM

"Anyway, I thought those who had chosen to take the second of spaw's options, may like to read those posts above to help pass the time..."

And I thought you might like to bite me. Hard.

Have a nice day.

---

Well, this discussion started our pretty well, but then the Usual Suspects decided to turn it into a battleground. I concur with the decision to close the thread. If certain individuals persist in posting six messages in a row, we may have to create individually-tailored limits for them. I would suggest that you should rarely post TWO messages in a row, and that there should be three or four messages (or more) from others before you post another. Discussions are like song circles - you take turns.
-Joe Offer-