BS: How long after can one make jokes about

Subject: BS: How long after can one make jokes about
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 16 Nov 09 - 04:41 AM

The Head Tucked Underneath Her Arm thread, re the terrible taste of a music-hall song about Anne Boleyn's execution, which nobody else but the OP & I seemed to recognise, is still a bit fresh in mind. One thing that has always exercised me is, how long after something terrible in its time is it OK to poke fun at it? — I have always hated comic films about eg The Reign Of Terror {"Don't Lose Your Head" by the CarryOn people}, Christians To Lions, &c. When will the Auschwitz hahaha come along then? {"Springtime for Hitler" is on the verge}. Maybe this might form the topic of a separate thread... In fact I am about to start it ... Anyone care to join in?

Subject: RE: BS: How long after can one make jokes about
From: GUEST,999
Date: 16 Nov 09 - 04:54 AM

If you just got your nuts slammed in a drawer or your tit squished in a door, you might not appreciate jokes for three or four minutes. Things like beheadings a week. Mass murder a month, and extermination of the human race at least a year.

Subject: RE: BS: How long after can one make jokes about
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 16 Nov 09 - 04:59 AM

Someone made a joke about Anne Frank on BBC R4 last week.
Her last diary entry was said to be , its my birthday and dad gave me a drum kit.
Complaints were made but BBC did not accept that they were wrong to allow it.

Subject: RE: BS: How long after can one make jokes about
From: Amergin
Date: 16 Nov 09 - 05:40 AM

Yeah some people will lose their heads over anything....

Subject: RE: BS: How long after can one make jokes about
From: kendall
Date: 16 Nov 09 - 05:50 AM

Abe Lincoln's assassination..."Other than that, how did you like the play Mrs. Lincoln?"

Titanic, "Where is all that fucking water coming from?"

Too recent, Mayor of Hiroshima, "What the fuck was that"?

Tragedy plus time equals comedy.

Subject: RE: BS: How long after can one make jokes about
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 16 Nov 09 - 05:55 AM

'Tragedy plus time equals comedy.' --

Sez who?!

I am shocked to the core about the Anne Frank joke, Keith. I seem to have missed that story. & the Beeb thought it was OK, did they? Well fuck you, Auntie Beeb!

Subject: RE: BS: How long after can one make jokes about
From: Dave MacKenzie
Date: 16 Nov 09 - 06:21 AM

Telling jokes is a way of coping. If you're not telling jokes you're not coping. Discuss.

Subject: RE: BS: How long after can one make jokes about
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 16 Nov 09 - 06:35 AM

I don't see how I am called on to 'cope' with the Reign of Terror or the plight of Anne Frank. But I do feel called on to respect the memory of those who were.

Subject: RE: BS: How long after can one make jokes about
From: Beer
Date: 16 Nov 09 - 07:37 AM

Shame shame shame on BBC.
Beer (adrien)

Subject: RE: BS: How long after can one make jokes about
From: Black belt caterpillar wrestler
Date: 16 Nov 09 - 07:41 AM

A friend of mine had to take an official part in the investigations into the "Herald of free Enterprise" capsise.
He came back with carrier bag labeled "this way up".

Subject: RE: BS: How long after can one make jokes about
From: Smedley
Date: 16 Nov 09 - 08:00 AM

I think the Anne Frank joke is rather funny.

In general, it's always interesting how soon it takes for jokes about 'tragic' events to enter the culture - I think the internet has speeded up the process. There were jokes online about 9/11 very swiftly after the events happened.

Subject: RE: BS: How long after can one make jokes about
From: Tug the Cox
Date: 16 Nov 09 - 08:19 AM

Sick Jokes appear almost immediately after even the most shocking tragedies ( I remember a short pause before Princess Di jokes flooded the market. Some get incorporated into songs ( there was a version of 'The Music man' which incorporated nasty happenings in the recent news , Lesley Whittle, Airey Neave, Mrs Ghandi, Michael Jackson).
   They aren't savoury, but some can make clever puns etc. Most would not be for public consumption on the media......but you try to stop them spreading vlike wildfire on the underground.....even before the Web. No-one ever owned up to making them up, they had always been heard 'from someone else', even the event was very recent.

Subject: RE: BS: How long after can one make jokes about
From: Bat Goddess
Date: 16 Nov 09 - 08:40 AM

Humor is definitely a way of coping with a situation that would otherwise be unbearable.

The judge in the Ed Gein case wrote a book shortly after Gein was committed to a mental institution and included a long chapter (by a shrink, as I remember) on humor as a coping device -- and a compendium of "Ed Gein" jokes (all of which were revived each time he came up for a sanity hearing and were revived and modified after Jeffrey Dahmer's crimes were revealed).

Linn

Subject: RE: BS: How long after can one make jokes about
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 16 Nov 09 - 08:42 AM

I think it is all a question of timing and context. No one in their right mind would dream of telling dead child 'jokes' to a greiving mother but everyone who dies is someones son or daughter. Anne Boleyn jokes, In my opinion, cannot case offense as no-one here today can have claimed to have known her. Christians and Lions likewise. The Hollocaust and Nazi Germany is dodgy ground because it is more recent but, in context such as the previously mentioned 'the Producers' it, once again becomes acceptable.

Pretty much the same as it is OK for Jackie Mason to tell Jewish jokes but when Jim Davidson does so it is a different story. Likewise Eddie Murphy or Chris rock can get away with jokes releating to black culture but Bernard Manning was, rightly, castigated.

It is all a question of personal sensibilities, taste and tollerance. If humour starts to get disected too much the point is lost.


Cheers

DeG

Don't read bellow if you are a Princess Di fan...
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What did the Paris ambulance crew sing while putting the famous car crash victims into the mortuary bags?

Zippedee Dodi, Zippedee Di...

Told you!

Subject: RE: BS: How long after can one make jokes about
From: kendall
Date: 16 Nov 09 - 09:07 AM

The key word here is TIME. The hallocaust is not funny, nor is the horrid deaths of so many Japanese civilians from the atom bombs. Thats not what we laugh at. It is the twist of phrase that we find humorous.

Where I live the economy and the weather are both serious factors that we must cope with; so we can either move or find the humor. I choose to find the humor. It's cheaper than moving.

If you don't have a sense of humor, well, God bless you. As my friend, Sheldon Wienstien said, "We all have a cross to bear."

Subject: RE: BS: How long after can one make jokes about
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 16 Nov 09 - 09:09 AM

'I think the Anne Frank joke is rather funny.' - Smedley

(Here it is as a reminder 'Her last diary entry was said to be , its my birthday and dad gave me a drum kit.')

Sorry, Smedley - but apart from the question of taste, appropriateness, whatever — I just don't get it. Would you mind explaining the POINT of this pleasantry to one who appears to have had a SOH·ectomy, please?

Subject: RE: BS: How long after can one make jokes about
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 16 Nov 09 - 09:20 AM

Well according to some people on Mudcat. It is OK to make jokes about someone who is in hospital dieing of cervical cancer at the time.
I refer to the tasteless thread about Jade Goody, which was resurrected after closure, because someone apparently thought it was funny.
Now that's what I call christian charity !

Subject: RE: BS: How long after can one make jokes about
From: Uncle_DaveO
Date: 16 Nov 09 - 09:22 AM

The humor, weak and regrettable as it is, is based on the long, enforced silence, silence, silence of the family, lest anyone, hearing even a dropped shoe or a cough, realize there are people there. And then, "a drum kit"?

In case it still has not come through, the implication is that she practiced on the drum, thus giving them away in a big way, and thus it was the last diary entry.

But then (taste aside) you can't analyze or explain a joke. Well, you can, but it's like dissecting a bullfrog to find out what makes the typical bellowing call. You don't learn much, and the frog is dead.

Dave Oesterreich

Subject: RE: BS: How long after can one make jokes about
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 16 Nov 09 - 09:22 AM

The real diary tells of the constant need for silence to avoid the family's presence being detected.
The BBC producer said she thought it was funny on the programme Feedback where they discussed the joke and the complaints.

Subject: RE: BS: How long after can one make jokes about
From: SINSULL
Date: 16 Nov 09 - 09:24 AM

Auschwitz jokes were making the rounds of the under-10 crowd in the 1950s. PM me if you want to read one. Black humor helps people deal with reality. We just had this very same discussion about three weeks ago - Helen Keller was the subject.

Humor is a personal thing. If you don't get it, there is no explaining it. And often what one person finds funny (or at least sees humor in) another will be offended by.

Just recently my cousin died. She was a very special lady and I still tear up at the loss. BUT the family could not get in touch with me because I had changed my phone number. They were forced to contact my brother's ex - a screwy woman who channels demons and has been chosen to sit with Jesus and 8 others to judge us all at the end of the world - I kid you not.
As a relative tried to carry on a conversation and get my number, her helpful husband suggested that she ask L- (the crazy) what kind of flowers A- (the deceased) wanted at her funeral. A- would have appreciated the humor as did her grieving husband and family.

But it had the potential to offend.

Subject: RE: BS: How long after can one make jokes about
From: wysiwyg
Date: 16 Nov 09 - 10:13 AM

SOS-- same old sh*t

The underlying determinant is WHO is telling the "joke" to whom. Joking on one's own history/foibles/tragedies is different from joking on another's.

~S~

Subject: RE: BS: How long after can one make jokes about
From: Lighter
Date: 16 Nov 09 - 10:52 AM

There's no accounting for taste, so what someone else thinks funny sometimes make me gag.

Subject: RE: BS: How long after can one make jokes about
From: Mark Ross
Date: 16 Nov 09 - 11:01 AM

Humor is a way of coping. When Utah Philips announced his retirement after over 3 decades performing(which he dearly loved), I called him to ask how he was doing. He replied, "I'm doing better than Larry Craig, I'm holding my own."
After he came out of the hospital the last time, I called to ask how he was feeling. He answered, "Suicidal and depressed." "Oh", I replied. "Yeah, I called the crisis line." Utah continued. They outsource everything these days. I found myself talking to a counselor in Pakistan. When I told him that I was feeling suicidal and depressed, he asked,'Can you drive a truck?'".


Mark Ross

Subject: RE: BS: How long after can one make jokes about
From: catspaw49
Date: 16 Nov 09 - 11:05 AM

"If I laugh at any mortal thing, t'is that I may not weep."

...........George Gordon/Lord Byron


Works for me as I've said many times before. If it makes my odd brand of humor off the wall or irreverent.....try to adjust. Ya' know, my Mom died on this very date in 1967 and there were lots of laughs as well as crying at her funeral.   Now I best remember the laughter............Margie had a wicked sense of humor and a loud and joyous laugh and for whatever else there is, its that I think of when I think of her.

Too soon to laugh? Geeziz........too late, yeah. Too soon?   


Spaw



Spaw

Subject: RE: BS: How long after can one make jokes about
From: Mrrzy
Date: 16 Nov 09 - 11:27 AM

I remember thinking that 9:11 killed the joke - it was a long time after that people started telling jokes about *anything*.

Subject: RE: BS: How long after can one make jokes about
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 16 Nov 09 - 12:06 PM

That's right 'spaw - I recal two recent funerals I attended. One for my best friends Mum where they played Gracie Fields singing 'Wish me luck as they wave me goodbye' and, my perosnal favourite, My uncle Dennis who insisted that the theme from the Great Escape was played:-)

My Mum that always says that at weddings everyone goes in happy and comes out fighting while at funerals everyone goes in crying and comes out laughing! Seems to be a general rule.

As to it's like dissecting a bullfrog to find out what makes the typical bellowing call. You don't learn much, and the frog is dead.

You can learn lots from dissecting frogs. I found out that if you cut a frogs legs off and tell it jump it doesn't. I learned, therefore, that a frog must hear though it's legs...

DeG

Subject: RE: BS: How long after can one make jokes about
From: Lighter
Date: 16 Nov 09 - 12:07 PM

It also depends on the joke. The "Mrs. Lincoln" joke makes the imaginary, anonymous interviewer an idiot. The "Anne Frank" joke makes an actual murdered child into an idiot.

Subject: RE: BS: How long after can one make jokes about
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 16 Nov 09 - 12:11 PM

Well the deceased chose the music, if anyone else had chosen it, THEN it would have been in bad taste.

Subject: RE: BS: How long after can one make jokes about
From: meself
Date: 16 Nov 09 - 12:19 PM

"Humour is a way of coping" - true - but that axiom is also the default rational for every supposedly-humorous breach of taste, civility, respect, and good manners. Look at how many times it has come up on this thread alone - now recall all the other threads in which has it has appeared, over and over again.

Not every sick joke is a "way of coping" - sometimes, to paraphrase Freud, a sick joke is just a sick joke.

Subject: RE: BS: How long after can one make jokes about
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 16 Nov 09 - 12:25 PM

'depends on the joke. The "Mrs. Lincoln" joke makes the imaginary, anonymous interviewer an idiot. The "Anne Frank" joke makes an actual murdered child into an idiot.'

Excellent — indeed, vital — distinction, Lighter.

Subject: RE: BS: How long after can one make jokes about
From: Jeri
Date: 16 Nov 09 - 12:43 PM

As a hearer, you either enjoy the jokes, ignore them, or get into being offended much of the time.

As a teller, you have to gauge your audience and be prepared for a few offended people if you misjudge. Also be prepared for the reaction to jokes that people simply don't think are funny.

Feel free to laugh at me. I don't do enough laughing at myself anyway. Just let me in on the joke.

Subject: RE: BS: How long after can one make jokes about
From: kendall
Date: 16 Nov 09 - 01:16 PM

I dont know how people with no sense of humor cope with everyday life. It must be very hard for you.

The more you cry the less you have to pee.

Subject: RE: BS: How long after can one make jokes about
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 16 Nov 09 - 01:57 PM

The "Anne Frank" joke makes an actual murdered child into an idiot.'

Sorry, but I don't fully comprehend the reasoning of this 'vital' distinction. Are you saying that nothing bad should ever be said of the dead? I know lot's of dead idiots. Some of them dead because they were idiots! Or are you saying that people should not be called idiots if they are not idiots? I don't know if Anne Frank was or was not, I'm afraid. I never met her but I think she was a pretty intelegent person judging by her writing. However if we were never to call make jokes based on incorrect or misinterpreted subjects then what is left?

Man walks into a bar. Ouch. It was an iron bar.

Sorry - can't say that - it makes men look idiots.

How can you tell when a drim lit is level. The drummer drools out of both sides of his mouth.

Nope - Suggests all drummers are imbaciles.

Did you hear about the politician who thought a three line whip was something inflicted by Sadie Whiplash.

Makes politicians look like...

Ah, maybe we should scratch that last one.

DeG

Subject: RE: BS: How long after can one make jokes about
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 16 Nov 09 - 02:06 PM

Well, just you go on ROTFL at idiotic Anne Frank, David el Gnomo; & I hope it keeps fine for you!

Subject: RE: BS: How long after can one make jokes about
From: Bill D
Date: 16 Nov 09 - 02:06 PM

Some people don't 'get' the distinction between 'clever' and 'funny'. A joke or remark can be VERY clever and well-constructed, yet be VERY inappropriate....and, as we see, not everyone agrees on which side of the line it is on.

The Anne Frank 'joke' is 'black humor'.... it could be used in VERY limited ways and with certain audiences, but I don't think Jay Leno would use it in his monologue.

I saw a remark about AIDS written on a mens room wall in West Virginia a few years ago that was extremely cleverly done, but it 'felt' like it was used in the meanest possible way. I have never repeated it.

I worked for a family once who were Jewish, and THEY told Jewish jokes and made remarks that *I* would not have told about them....perspective is everything.

Subject: RE: BS: How long after can one make jokes about
From: SINSULL
Date: 16 Nov 09 - 02:21 PM

The Darwin Awards are a classic example of black humor. These poor people died doing incredibly stupid things and we laugh...or at least I do.
Frankly, if any of my relatives or close friends died doing something incredibly stupid, I would mourn AND laugh.
Humor is eveywhere. Not everyone sees it. And it is not always appropriate.
If someone falls down on the street, I laugh. I can't help it. It is childish and maybe mean certainly not appropriate but there you go...

I can't look at a Hefty Bag without laughing out loud - that joke was on me. And mean, Jacqui. LOL

Subject: RE: BS: How long after can one make jokes about
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 16 Nov 09 - 02:44 PM

Sinsull, if you fell down in the street [as my Parkinsons-suffering wife was constantly doing in the year or two before she died] & really hurt yourself, and a bystander laughed - what would you think/say/do?

Er, sorry, almost forgot - LoL!

Subject: RE: BS: How long after can one make jokes about
From: kendall
Date: 16 Nov 09 - 03:00 PM

I can't abide a humorless sour puss. They are energy sinks.

Subject: RE: BS: How long after can one make jokes about
From: Amergin
Date: 16 Nov 09 - 03:08 PM

I just love how people here can be so sanctimonious...so self righteous....life must be really grand for you if you have nothing more important to get upset over than some joke.

Subject: RE: BS: How long after can one make jokes about
From: SINSULL
Date: 16 Nov 09 - 03:35 PM

I have M. And I hurt myself badly. And I laughed at the stupidity of my situation. Actually managed to step into a hole in a bridge. And no - I didn't sue.

I also fell about two years ago and sprained my ankle and hurt my knee. As I said - when people fall down I laugh. I fell down and I laughed. Sitting on the snowy ground on my butt was a ridiculous place to be. The doctor and the chiropractor didn't laugh - but they have no sense of humor.

Can you not see the difference between a woman with Parkinson falling (I wouldn't laugh assuming the Parkinson's was obvious) and a perfectly healthy woman dropping for no reason at all?

I didn't laugh when a woman was beheaded by a passing garbage truck even though she fell down. That was pretty horrifying.

Subject: RE: BS: How long after can one make jokes about
From: VirginiaTam
Date: 16 Nov 09 - 04:06 PM

maybe slightly off topic, but today I received an email about parent failures. Chock full of images that someone evidently though funny but I would call child abuse, event eh clearly posed ones.

Couple of weeks old infant inside a large sandwich with adult about to take a bite

several picks of babies and children with real guns and rifles. One was an infant with the barrel of shotgun in its mouth.

Babies with dangerous animals, infant with boa constrictor crawling over it, toddler chained to lioness.

About 20 pictures in all. Really disturbing and not funny. Told sender not to send me such images again. I think she took offence. Tough!

Subject: RE: BS: How long after can one make jokes about
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 16 Nov 09 - 04:20 PM

'Can you not see the difference between a woman with Parkinson falling (I wouldn't laugh assuming the Parkinson's was obvious) and a perfectly healthy woman dropping for no reason at all?'


No, Sinsull, it wasn't that obvious *until* she fell. How do you know how many of the falls you have ROTFL'd at have had a similar cause? I should be careful if I were you, if you don't want the kick in the bollox from her husband that you would have got from me if you had been there & laughed...

Kendall & Amergin, what a pathetic pair you are.

Subject: RE: BS: How long after can one make jokes about
From: VirginiaTam
Date: 16 Nov 09 - 04:41 PM

Maybe it is just me, but I do not tend to laugh when someone falls or has mishaps. My first reaction is fear they may have hurt themselves.

I do laugh when I myself fumble, trip, knock against something. Well usually, unless it was particularly painful. Then I swear or cry which may be laughable to me at a later time.

I remember a teenage girl acting out some bit of pageant, tumbled down about 4 stairs at back of church which led to landing then onto cellar. We all gasped and were silent until she climbed up looked over the rail and demanded with silly smile on her face, "Who put those there?"

Subject: RE: BS: How long after can one make jokes about
From: Bill D
Date: 16 Nov 09 - 04:53 PM

I LOVE good cartoons... I think that clever cartoonists can say a lot about life and show the humorous and absurd side of life...and tell some interesting truths in the process.....but sometimes they are hart to fathom.

This guy thinks so too. Take a look at some he has posted. You will find some silly, some gross.... and some just weird. Some you wouldn't put on your refrigerator.

Subject: RE: BS: How long after can one make jokes about
From: SINSULL
Date: 16 Nov 09 - 04:56 PM

Miss Tam - I had the same reaction when my father insisted on sending me pictures of dead cats, cats hit by cars with liquor bottles in their paws - pissed me off. He wasn't happy when I told him to knock it off.

MtheGM - first I did not say I stand and laugh at the person who has fallen. I leave quickly and laugh later. Nor did I use ROTFL; second, you and I will never agree on what is funny. I can live with that.

Subject: RE: BS: How long after can one make jokes about
From: Lighter
Date: 16 Nov 09 - 05:27 PM

David el Gnomo's examples aren't parallel to the Anne Frank joke. Each is about an imaginary person, and if they imply that everybody like that person is likewise an idiot, only another idiot would believe it.

Besides making fun of the real dead child, Anne Frank, the joke also makes fun of her father - also real - and by implication those in hiding with them. To find it truly funny, you also have to believe that the Holocaust was quite funny, or at least "not nearly so bad as they say. I mean, lighten up!" Maybe you only believe it for a moment, but maybe even that moment should be a little too long for one's conscience.

Many critics raved about the "sweetness" of the movie "Life is Beautiful." For all the obvious fantasy, it turned my stomach because it suggested that a hip viewer could find the Holocaust amusing, or at least not nearly so bad as they say. How about a charming comedy about Hiroshima? It couldn't have been as bad as they say. Right?

Finally, also unlike David el Gnomo's, the Anne Frank joke was broadcast to millions with the approval of the BBC. That says, "Piss on you, any Holocaust survivors or their families or any relatives of the murdered who might be listening! You're too hung up on the past to take a joke!"

I'm amazed the BBC wouldn't apologize, and I share MtheGM's sentiments. People who'll defend that kind of public joke just because *they personally think it's funny* might want to reconsider what they're really defending.

Subject: RE: BS: How long after can one make jokes about
From: SINSULL
Date: 16 Nov 09 - 07:20 PM

Actually someone did make a comedy about Hiroshima. It involved a film maker trying to sell a monster movie disaster idea. Can't remember the name but a GOOGLE search will turn it up. No comment on whether I found it funny. It was I believe a Japanese filmmaker.

Subject: RE: BS: How long after can one make jokes about
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 16 Nov 09 - 07:31 PM

F sor F's sake. It was NOT about Anne Frank. It was about a ludicrous situation where people could make no noise until a drum kit was introduced. If you cannot see the humour in that then fuck off. If you cannot see the humour in being told to fuck off, then I have no interest in you. Fuck off again and try to see some humour in doing so. Or accept that you have no sense of humour and fuck off again...

DeG

Subject: RE: BS: How long after can one make jokes about
From: kendall
Date: 16 Nov 09 - 08:11 PM

Yup, thats me, a pathetic professional humorist. LOL

Subject: RE: BS: How long after can one make jokes about
From: kendall
Date: 16 Nov 09 - 08:57 PM

Pathetic is when someone lacks the wit to have a good sense of humor.

Subject: RE: BS: How long after can one make jokes about
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 16 Nov 09 - 09:48 PM

Kendall - I can live with you thinking I'm pathetic right back: your privilege. Opinions as to precisely what constitutes GSOH obviously vary - as they are doing right now & thruout this thread.

Lighter - Thank you 4 cogent support. I too hated 'Life Is Beautiful' with an absolute deadly loathing.

Sinsull - no I intro'd concept of ROTFL simply as shorthand for what I had taken to be yr reaction: if you wait till later when yr laughter will not be observed, that also yr privilege & no harm done to the faller - tho you still won't know if a serious fall due to some such cause as my wife's Pknsns of which, at that stage, the falling itself was the visible symptom; so I hope you can invariably live with the possible implicatns of yr own reactions.

David el G - Didn't notice anyone had told you to fuck off: I do now, tho, till you have learned to control yr stupid temper.

Subject: RE: BS: How long after can one make jokes about
From: Smedley
Date: 17 Nov 09 - 06:11 AM

As I was asked, it is only polite to reply.

To me, the Anne Frank joke is funny because (a) it introduces absurdity into what we have culturally come to agree is a deeply serious situation, and thus (b) it generates incongruity, which as any student of humour will tell you, is a key constituent part of most comedy.

It is not a joke about Anne Frank herself, it is a joke about the cultural 'rules' which govern (often for good reason) our attitudes towards certain historical figures and events. Sometimes it is good to open a safety valve and laugh at the 'un-laughable'.

Subject: RE: BS: How long after can one make jokes about
From: kendall
Date: 17 Nov 09 - 06:34 AM

In other words, if you "Get it" it's funny. If not, the teller is sick.

Subject: RE: BS: How long after can one make jokes about
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 17 Nov 09 - 07:57 AM

Sigh - That was the last ditch attempt. I was hoping you would at least be able to laugh at a foul mouthed Gnome but even that didn't work. I think we will just have to accept that if you don't find the image of a short, fat, bearded garden ornament going red in the face then we are just too different to have a sensible conversation.

No problem doesn't make either of us a lesser person but if I accept that your sensitivities are such that you find black humour somehow unacceptable will you accept that a lot of people are quite happy and comfortable with it? If we can agree that then the thread question can only be answered by - 'It depends on who is telling the joke, the circusmstances and the audience'.

And I wish you had actualy told me to fuck off rather than implying it. I found the implication vaguely humourous but us Gnomes are not known for sublety. Pie in the face is much better:-)

Cheers

DeG

Subject: RE: BS: How long after can one make jokes about
From: SINSULL
Date: 17 Nov 09 - 08:26 AM

Now THAT I found humorous. Anyone else amused at Dave's observations?

Subject: RE: BS: How long after can one make jokes about
From: kendall
Date: 17 Nov 09 - 10:09 AM

Yes.

Subject: RE: BS: How long after can one make jokes about
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 17 Nov 09 - 08:09 PM

What's funny about a foul-mouthed gnome? Nothing in any way surprising about it in a gnome - after all garden gnomes are said to be descended from phallic Roman statues.

A nun swearing, for example, might have the humour of incongruity - but a gnome, so what?

Subject: RE: BS: How long after can one make jokes about
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 17 Nov 09 - 09:18 PM

Now, I have been called a prick quite often, but never a Roman one, so just watch it McG. or you might get a fishing rod up the jacksie. Mind you, I do like Pasta and a drop of Valpolicella. Maybe you have something there after all.

Swearing nun? Nah...

Seven dwarves go to vist the Pope.

Tell me, your holiness, do you have any very small nuns?

No, my son.

Not even one?

Afraid not.

The other six start the chant.

'Dopey's shagged a penguin, Dopey's shagged a penguin...'

I hope no one is going to tell me THAT is sick?

:D
(on long nights again)

Subject: RE: BS: How long after can one make jokes about
From: M.Ted
Date: 18 Nov 09 - 07:18 AM

For those who have trouble with the Anne Frank jokeHumor in the Holocaust may change your perspective.
Those who thought it was funny will find some jokes you haven't heard.

My favorite is Victor Frankl's story about   being in a group who were shaved of every hair and then herded into showers. When water came pouring out of the shower heads, they all started laughing.

I guess you had to be there...

Subject: RE: BS: How long after can one make jokes about
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 18 Nov 09 - 08:21 AM

Presumably the origin of that scene in Schindler's List which the audience was supposed to respond positively to — but all I could think of was all the other times when it wasn't fucking water!

Subject: RE: BS: How long after can one make jokes about
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 18 Nov 09 - 08:23 AM

... & thanks a bunch M Ted — but I don't think I shall access that site you so helpfully provide the clicky for.

Subject: RE: BS: How long after can one make jokes about
From: Lox
Date: 18 Nov 09 - 09:14 AM

Depends on the joke and depends on the point of the joke and how it is made.

"Auschwitz hahaha"

Anyone ever seeen Roberto Benigni's "la vita e bella"?

I like the anne frank joke.

It says nothing about anne frank, nor does it do anything to trivialiser her tragedy.

The joke is about a fictional scenario.

Would anne frank have laughed?

probably.

Subject: RE: BS: How long after can one make jokes about
From: Lox
Date: 18 Nov 09 - 09:19 AM

"but all I could think of was all the other times when it wasn't fucking water!"

That's the point MtheGM. That's why it is a pignant moment in the film.

You're getting there - well done.

Subject: RE: BS: How long after can one make jokes about
From: Lox
Date: 18 Nov 09 - 09:21 AM

Home Page button
        

(Posted to this site on 11/22/2001)

Humor in the Holocaust:
Its Critical, Cohesive, and Coping Functions
by John Morreall, Ph.D.

       This paper was presented at the 1997 Annual Scholars' Conference on the Holocaust and the Churches, Hearing The Voices: Teaching the Holocaust to future Generations. It is available on a CD-ROM of all Scholars' Conference papers 1990-2000 published by Vista-Intermedia and edited by Marcia Sachs Littell.




"The very idea of humor during the Holocaust may at first seem jarring—incongruous but not funny! In Western culture there is a long tradition of prejudice against humor, especially in connection with anything as tragic as the Holocaust. Tragedy, on stage or in real life, is serious, even sublime, while humor and comedy are "light." In drama, when comedy appears within tragedy, it is usually discounted as mere "comic relief."

But the ancient Greeks, Shakespeare, and other dramatists took their comedy more seriously than that. They realized that comedy is not "time out" from the real world; rather it provides another perspective on that world. And that other perspective is no less valuable than the tragic perspective. As Conrad Hyers has suggested, comedy expresses a "stubborn refusal to give tragedy . . . the final say."1"



Fantastic paragraph.

Subject: RE: BS: How long after can one make jokes about
From: Lighter
Date: 18 Nov 09 - 10:37 AM

If we didn't know about Anne Frank, her arrest by the Gestapo, and her death at Auschwitz, the joke wouldn't exist. That's what the joke's based on, what it's ultimately about, and what the original teller must have thought was either funny or meaningless. Some of those who laughed along don't see it that way. But remember, the idea didn't pop into their heads. In fact (one hopes) it had never occurred to them. The Anne Frank joke was created by someone eager to share his or her light-hearted attitude toward the Holocaust with the BBC's large audience.

Those who laughed aren't (I hope) "sick." But the joke is in such bad taste the BBC should have apologized for broadcasting it and thus helping to desensitize people to mass killings even further.
What bothers me about the joke isn't its lack of humor - that's a matter of taste. What bothers me is its unapologetic broadcast. (Check out the current "antisemitic Boy Scout" thread).

As for Viktor Frankl's joke about the showers - no comparison. In that one, we laugh *with* the victims because they escape with their lives (for now). In the Anne Frank joke, we're supposed to laugh because the family's stupidity kills them. They rather get what they deserve for being such jerks, don't they?

Victims of the Holocaust had every right to crack whatever grim jokes they needed to help themselves stay sane. We, however, have no moral right to crack and encourage gratuitous jokes at their expense. That's why I find the joke offensive.

Surely Lox and others recognize the difference between laughing *with* and laughing *at*.

Subject: RE: BS: How long after can one make jokes about
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 18 Nov 09 - 10:45 AM

pignant moment in the film.

You're getting there - well done. >>>

'Pignant' rather a happily adventitious typo, you patronising pillock, Lox. 'La vita e bella' a disgusting travesty — Auschwitz as a sort of happy holiday camp where you could just piss off from your work detail whenever you felt like it to make sure the sweet little boy no-one had noticed hidden in your hut was OK. & you think Morreal's PseudsCorner·worthy thesis 'fantastic', do you? Indeed — fantastically pretentious.

Hate to say it, Lox - but you are coming across as just not right bright.

Don't trouble to rejoin; I shall read no more of your stupid posts on this thread.

Subject: RE: BS: How long after can one make jokes about
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 18 Nov 09 - 10:50 AM

And Lighter, before one of the pillocks like Lox picks up on your minimal error & makes a thing of it to try to diminish what you say, I who am on your side will point out that Anne Frank died in Belsen, not Auschwitz; & what of it morally tho?. Otherwise you are 100% on the ball.

Subject: RE: BS: How long after can one make jokes about
From: kendall
Date: 18 Nov 09 - 11:18 AM

Name calling is considered a personal attack here, and is not condoned.

Subject: RE: BS: How long after can one make jokes about
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 18 Nov 09 - 12:07 PM

Name calling? Moi! The very idea! Oh, do you mean 'pillock'? — a very mild denunciation over here, I assure you. But I withdraw it if you prefer, & will substitute 'big-girl's blouse'. There, is that better?

Subject: RE: BS: How long after can one make jokes about
From: Lox
Date: 18 Nov 09 - 01:06 PM

No worries kendall.

Name calling is the second last resort of a person who has no better argument to advance, and this thread is bigger than MtheGM.

The last resort is violence.



"In the Anne Frank joke, we're supposed to laugh because the family's stupidity kills them."


If the Frank Family had actually bought Anne a drum kit and had subsequently been caught by the Nazi's as a result of playing it noisily then that would have been a very bad decision.

Drawing attention to that and laughing at it would be to ridicule them and find enjoyment in a tragic mistake.

That would be to say "weren't the franks stupid ha ha ha"


But they didn't did they.


So we aren't laughing at something they did are we?


No.


So we aren't calling them stupid are we?


No.



Well then what could we possibly laughing at?



1. The notion that Anne Franks Father would have considered buying her a drumkit in the first place, which is completely absurd because:

a) Anne Frank didn't play the drums and had no interest in doing so. we know this because there are no passages in her diary in which she expresses such a desire. So for her to be given a drumkit is entirely incongruous with everything we know about her.

The incongruity of a Drumkit with the context of Anne Frank's story is ridiculous.

The drumkit is extremely funny!

b) A drumkit would have been virtually impossible to find in Nazi occupied Amsterdam, and would have been unaffordable to Anne Franks Father even if he had been free to go shopping down at the local Drumkit retailers.

The idea of Him buying and carrying a drumkit through Amsterdam to bring home to their house, looking like a one man band as he clatters and bumps his waay home, is an utterly absurd fiction and for that reason very funny.

It is also entirely incongruous with the realities of the story, hence it is both funny and (being incongruous) has no bearing on whether or not Mr Frank was stupid or not.

It says nothing about whether he is stupid or not.

2. We are also laughing at the idea that somebody in hiding might decide to start playing the drums.

"Surely Lox and others recognize the difference between laughing *with* and laughing *at*. "

I'm not laughing either 'with' or 'at' the Franks. They are not essential to the Joke. It could just as easily have been anyone else in hiding.

In the case of the Franks however it is particularly absurd as we know the question of owning a drumkit would never have crossed their minds in the first place even if they had never been in hiding.


A drumkit in the context of Anne frank is simply very funny and I laughed out loud at the joke for that reason.


Examples of humour involving incongrous additions to well known situations.


The idea of Pamela Anderson applying for a job as a pole dancer in a mosque.

This says nothing about moslems or Pamela anderson.

It is funny because it is ridiculous.

The idea of an insurance salesman knocking on frodo baggins door in the lord of the rings.

The idea of Aslan the Lion being arrested by the FBI for the murder of the Ice Queen in Narnia.


You see?


The idea of a drumkit in the Anne frank house ...



The idea of a palestinian suicide bomber in colditz ...


Any help?

Subject: RE: BS: How long after can one make jokes about
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 18 Nov 09 - 01:26 PM

'You see?'

No.

Subject: RE: BS: How long after can one make jokes about
From: Lighter
Date: 18 Nov 09 - 02:02 PM

Lox, you seem to be saying that the joke is funny just because it's absurd.

Well, maybe that's why people *do* laugh. My point, though, is that the joke-teller, who dreamed it up, exploits a named, innocent, real person's destruction to get laughs and wants others to laugh too. Not a good thing. Anne Frank is an especially offensive focus, because her individual fate was that of millions. And pointlessly telling the joke over the air, to many who are close to the same sort of experience and might reasonably be expected to take serious offense, is not a good thing either. Finally, somebody decided it was beneath the Beeb's dignity to apologize: even worse.

Lox, your examples of absurdist jokes are unpersuasive. Pamela Anderson? Pole dancing in a mosque? The crux is what happens next. What if the joke ends with PA stoned to death by an angry mob? Worse, what if the *real* PA really had been stoned to death by an angry mob? And if you knew her relatives were in the joke's radio/TV audience? Would you criticize them for being indignant? If so, why?
Because they need to lighten up?

A media outlet shouldn't encourage people to laugh at real victims of monstrous crimes. And it shouldn't suggest to an audience of millions that it's proud of having done so. Nor should we leap to its defense when it does.

MtheGM, thanks for the correction on Belsen.

Subject: RE: BS: How long after can one make jokes about
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 18 Nov 09 - 02:20 PM

'Name calling is the second last resort of a person who has no better argument to advance, and this thread is bigger than MtheGM.'

Actually, Lox, I accept this reproach. I was only attracted to the word 'pillock', in fact, [which as i told Kendall is really quite a vanilla word, and not part of my general vocab of abuse] as stylistic device, a bit of alliteration with "Pignant" & 'patronising' — your having informed me in somewhat lordly fashion that I was 'beginning to get it' or some such having got on not a million miles from my tits. But I will acknowledge it was not a particularly worthy or brilliant bit of argument on my part.

Still don't think you are right, mind — must say I think many of your arguments wilful & frivolous. I think Lighter has put the points well in his last post. But you are hereby officially cleared of any suspicions or accusations of pillockry.

Subject: RE: BS: How long after can one make jokes about
From: Jeri
Date: 18 Nov 09 - 02:36 PM

Michael the GM, I think you'd be best to cut bait.

You have admitted you lack the ability to understand, and are offended because some people do. I think it's a lost cause all around.

Subject: RE: BS: How long after can one make jokes about
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 18 Nov 09 - 02:50 PM

Regret cannot congratulate you on the clarity of your contribution addressed to me, Jeri.

Not familar with phrase 'cut bait' — elucidate, please.

What have I admitted lack of ability to understand? — I am not conscious of having made any such admission — please provide me with a reference.

Also to my offendedness "because some people do" — "do" what?

And what, precisely do you think "is a lost cause all around"?

Apart from all that, your comments are a model of hyaline comprehensibility.

Regards - Michael

Subject: RE: BS: How long after can one make jokes about
From: meself
Date: 18 Nov 09 - 03:01 PM

I believe that what Jeri means is that s/he disagrees with you, and that therefore you are wrong and should not defend your point of view.

But perhaps I've misunderstood.

Subject: RE: BS: How long after can one make jokes about
From: Lox
Date: 18 Nov 09 - 03:34 PM

"What have I admitted lack of ability to understand? — I am not conscious of having made any such admission"

You aditted it as follows:


    "'You see?'

    No. "


i.e - no I don't see = no I don't understand.


Please try to remain conscious.

More conscious catters seem to have had no difficulty realizing that "Pignant" is "Poignant" misspelled.

But you can have a gold star if you can stay awake long enough.

Lighter.

"The crux is what happens next. What if the joke ends with PA stoned to death by an angry mob?"

It didn't.

The joke was the image of PA poledancing in a mosque.

the rest was YOUR addition.

The bits you added weren't funny.


"Worse, what if the *real* PA really had been stoned to death by an angry mob?"


hmmm interesting ... your imagination is indeed a fertile place.


You may need to clarify your point though unless you meant to draw a paralell with the Ann Frank joke, in which case I may need to repeat that Mr Frank never did buy a drumkit, and drumkits never played any part in the reality of their story, neither does a joke about a drumkit in relation to ann Frank say anything about whether or not the Franks were or weren't stupid as they never had any interest in Drumkits...

... that coincidentally being an essential part of the joke being criticized.


So to clarify your line of thinking for you, as PA has never poledanced in a mosque, much less been stoned to death for it, the PA joke remains inoffensive regardless of your curiosity about what happens next.

Likewise, the Ann Frank Joke is not offensive as Mr Frank never bought Ann Frank a drumkit, and her death had nothing to do with playing the drums.

Her death was the result of the Nazi policy of murdering Jews, and her diary is a heart rending account of human refusal to lose ones optimism, positivity, irreverence, sense of Irony and sense of humour no matter what the circumstances.

Ann Frank ultimately died of Typhus according to surviving witnesses. She was also cannibalised by them, which was something they had no choice over.


That isn't funny either.



The joke never at any point refers to any of those things.



You might ask "what if it did?" just as you asked "what if PA had poledanced in a mosque?" etc.

Well then it would be a different joke.

Subject: RE: BS: How long after can one make jokes about
From: SINSULL
Date: 18 Nov 09 - 03:44 PM

No, meself, that is not what Jeri said at all.

"Fish or cut bait" is a US expression. Look it up for an explanation. I don't want to waste any more bandwidth on explaining what can't be comprehended. That is pretty close to what Jeri was saying.

By the way, she was neutral and made no judgement nor took any side.

Subject: RE: BS: How long after can one make jokes about
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 18 Nov 09 - 03:46 PM

I think the poignancy of the situation is often a foil for the humour as well. Most of the best comedies often have an element of tragedy which gives them an added depth unseen in others. Likewise with standup comedy or jokes such as we have been discussing. Go back to Shakespear and beyon and you will find examples of the reverse as well - Look at the Porter scene in MacBeth to see how humour can add an extra dimension to a tragedy.

Had 'One foot in the grave' have ended with anything but Victor dying would it have had the same edge? How about Stephanie Cole in 'Waiting for God'. Not much to laugh about getting old and being in a home? Just watch the show.

And, to my mind, one of the all time classics of tragic/comic acting is Paul Whitehouse playing Rowley Birkin, QC, who's incomprehensible mumblings we had all laughed at for years. In the last 'Fast show', with tears in his eyes, we caught the odd snippets about the woman he loved so much. Absolute masterpiece and should be a lesson to all on not knowing whether to laugh or cry!

Cheers

DeG

Subject: RE: BS: How long after can one make jokes about
From: meself
Date: 18 Nov 09 - 03:54 PM

I'm quite familiar with the expression "fish or cut bait", thank you, and it is utterly nonsensical in the context in which it was used here.

Btw, I don't understand why you would tell me to look something up, then go on to tell me it can't be comprehended.

Furthermore, your statement that Jeri "was neutral and made no judgement nor took any side" is nothing short of baffling. Look it up.

Subject: RE: BS: How long after can one make jokes about
From: Lox
Date: 18 Nov 09 - 04:00 PM

"Had 'One foot in the grave' have ended with anything but Victor dying would it have had the same edge? How about Stephanie Cole in 'Waiting for God'. Not much to laugh about getting old and being in a home? Just watch the show."

Why not cut to the chase and refer directly to "waiting for Godot" upon which they are based.

A funnier play you will never see, nor a more grave, thought provoking and soul stirring tragedy.

Though to clarify again, the Ann Frank Joke referred to above still doesn't fit that category as it has no bearing on the actual tragedy which occurred.

Subject: RE: BS: How long after can one make jokes about
From: GUEST,Kendall
Date: 18 Nov 09 - 04:11 PM

When I was last in England traveling with my wifes family, some dope did something stupid and I yelled "Pillok" at him. That's not a word that my step daughter wanted her 9 year old son to hear.
She should hear some of my regular blessings.

Subject: RE: BS: How long after can one make jokes about
From: SINSULL
Date: 18 Nov 09 - 04:13 PM

MtheGM said he is no familiar with the expression.

Everything on this thread can be comprehended. Some are unable to do so. See below:
"Furthermore, your statement that Jeri "was neutral and made no judgement nor took any side" is nothing short of baffling. Look it up."

Subject: RE: BS: How long after can one make jokes about
From: SINSULL
Date: 18 Nov 09 - 04:27 PM

So Monty Python's Spanish Inquisiton joke is off limits as well? And not funny?

Subject: RE: BS: How long after can one make jokes about
From: Lox
Date: 18 Nov 09 - 04:36 PM

... I wasn't expecting the Spanish inquisition ...

Subject: RE: BS: How long after can one make jokes about
From: Lox
Date: 18 Nov 09 - 04:36 PM

(don't mention the war)

Subject: RE: BS: How long after can one make jokes about
From: catspaw49
Date: 18 Nov 09 - 04:37 PM

That's dangerous ground Sinsull.......I mean like, no one expects the Spanish Inquisition..............

Spaw

Subject: RE: BS: How long after can one make jokes about
From: SINSULL
Date: 18 Nov 09 - 04:46 PM

I know, Spaw. I am looking for guidance here. How can I be sure NEVER to offend anyone with my humor. Is there a list somewhere of forbidden topics? Paw and the Reg Boys and Cletus are all red necked ignorami - are they off the list? Sarah Palin? George Bush? I guess all politicians since they are all involved in one disaster or another. Madoff? Nope! Too many poor people. Gladiators? Nope Caligula? Nope! Kendall? Nope! - Jacqui bears the brunt there. How about Barbara Streisand? Did South Park offend anyone when they spoofed her? For sure I can't laugh at South Park anymore.
Everybody Loves Raymond ridicules stupid people - I don't mind giving that up.

How about that cranky old guy on 60 Minutes, Andy Rooney? The Muppets? They made fun of pigs and ballerinas with Swine Lake.

Where can I go to laugh?

Subject: RE: BS: How long after can one make jokes about
From: Lox
Date: 18 Nov 09 - 04:54 PM

"Everybody Loves Raymond ridicules stupid people - I don't mind giving that up."

This is the point.

A lighter says, laughing AT people and their misfortune isn't big or clever.

I would add that I don't find peoples misfortune funny.


The Anne Frank Joke however does not laugh at anyones misfortune, it laughs at a fictional construct.

Subject: RE: BS: How long after can one make jokes about
From: catspaw49
Date: 18 Nov 09 - 05:13 PM

Ya' know Sins, I'm not real sure! Can you laugh at a joke made by a man literally minutes before his death?

My Dad's best friend was Joe. Joe was a really fine man with a great smile and a big laugh and after my parents had gone, he and his wife were sort of replacements. Joe became ill about 20 years back with cancer and typically though he fought hard, it was terminal from the gitgo. But Joe did it well and when Marg finally had to get hospice care his time was very short. His two sisters that he had rarely seen in his later years (because he thought they were incredible pains in the ass) came to visit and Joe was barely able to stay awake but would never have told them he wanted them to leave. Finally, they arose and said they were leaving as they "didn't want to wear out their welcome."   Without missing a beat and with his eyes still closed Joe said, "Too late."

Marg, JoAnn (daughter) and I just couldn't help but bust out laughing. The sisters left and Joe died with Marg and JoAnn by his side about 15 minutes later. I can't help but think how wonderful it would be to have laughter as the last sound you hear.

This thread is just so much friggin' crap. Some of you will never get the joke or enjoy it or anything else. I'm happy you're happy with that. I'm not. I find humor in damn near everything almost anytime. If you hate "black humor" or "filthy language" or "dirty jokes" then don't listen or don't read and go hang with those who think your way.....please.

One thing is pretty sure and that is that I won't change your mind and you won't change mine!

One more thing though.........For those of you who hate sarcasm, "cuttin," "playing the dozens," and forms of put-down humor, its probably because you're lousy at it or were brought up to believe it was nasty and vile.   You won't change and I know that. Neither will I.


Spaw

Subject: RE: BS: How long after can one make jokes about
From: Uncle_DaveO
Date: 18 Nov 09 - 05:14 PM

I've remained out of the fray here (pretty much), but I have to come down on Lox's side at this point. It laughs at a fictional construct is accurate. The joke becomes funny (though weakly so) just exactly because it has nothing really to do with the real family. In effect the scenario deals with an abstract family in the situation that the Franks occupied. The use of the Franks' name serves only to identify the situation.

Dave Oesterreich

Subject: RE: BS: How long after can one make jokes about
From: Lox
Date: 18 Nov 09 - 05:33 PM

Spaw,

I would add that your 'offensive' hunour, when directed at your friends, especially those in difficulty, is nothing if not sensitive and heartwarming.

Some of your friends on here have been through some difficult times of late to do with their health and when people have started ringing their death knell (with the best of intentions) you have been there to offer levity and optimism.

Those with the most to worry about, ie your sick friends, have known exactly where you are coming from, got the joke and been cheered up.

If it wasn't for your humour, those threads would read like a fucking gravestone and your ... our friends would be all the more terrified and pessimistic.

Humour isn't just justified, it is essential.

Life is to be lived.

Death will have its day.

That day is not now.

I will remember funny mischievous kids like anne frank with a glint in my eye.

If there is a lesson to be learned from her book it's 'stop bloody moaning'.

Subject: RE: BS: How long after can one make jokes about
From: Lox
Date: 18 Nov 09 - 05:39 PM

As for "la Vita e bella"

A film about how a father manages somehow to hide the horror of a concentration camp from his son ... but not the viewer ...

... no ... linear thought and blinkers can't handle that kind of subtlety.

Subject: RE: BS: How long after can one make jokes about
From: M.Ted
Date: 18 Nov 09 - 06:15 PM

Michael--perhaps I undersold my link--perhaps you can tell by the opening paragraph, so helpfully posted by Lox above, that it is a very serious, scholarly article, offered at The Holocaust Teachers Resource Center, which decribes itself as follows--

"This Holocaust Teacher Resource Center (TRC) web site, is dedicated to the memory of the six million Jewish people slaughtered during the Holocaust and the millions other people slaughtered during the Nazi era. It strives to combat prejudice and bigotry by transforming the horrors of the Holocaust into positive lessons to help make this a better and safer world for everybody. This site is sponsored by the Holocaust Education Foundation, Inc."

I tell you this so that you understand that when you say "but I don't think I shall access that site you so helpfully provide the clicky for." it looks as though you choose to ignore those who are trying to teach the lessons of the Holocaust. I am sure that's not what you meant, and that you only wanted to be spared from humor that makes you uncomfortable.

Subject: RE: BS: How long after can one make jokes about
From: Lighter
Date: 18 Nov 09 - 06:17 PM

Just to repeat:

"A media outlet shouldn't encourage people to laugh at real victims of monstrous crimes. And it shouldn't suggest to an audience of millions that it's proud of having done so. Nor should we leap to its defense when it does."

That's the point.

Subject: RE: BS: How long after can one make jokes about
From: Joe Offer
Date: 18 Nov 09 - 06:36 PM

I used to avoid funerals. I never knew what to say, and I was afraid I'd say something wrong. I went out of social obligation, and made sure to leave right after the service was over. My grandmother, the best friend I ever had in my life, died in 1982, when I was 34 years old. Not only did I have to attend the funeral and reception - I had to speak at the wake. Now, my grandmother was a very funny and joyful woman, and it's impossible to speak about her without being funny and joyful. Somehow, she was always able to face the difficulties of life and of getting old with a sense of humor, so it seemed only right to speak of those difficulties with humor. So I got through my speech and people liked it, and I found that the laughter about my lovely, crazy grandmother helped ease the pain of losing her. And I lost my fear of funerals.

After that, I made a point of attending the funeral of every dead person I knew, and doing my best to make sure there was music at the funeral. I found that I really enjoyed them and that they were often filled with joy and laughter, along with the tears. I often found that the people closest to the deceased, were the ones most likely to appreciate humor and laughter at a funeral.

Even laughter at the dead person's faults is often welcome. The funeral of a son of a bitch can be a very difficult thing. Outsiders may have had problems with the deceased, but the family may have found living with the bastard to be living hell. A little laughter can help put things in perspective, and can help people cope with the negative aspects of all that they're dealing with.

But the main thing is, that the people closest to suffering and death, are the most likely to welcome humor. People who are suffering or grieving, rarely are offended by a good-hearted attempt at humor. They know that people don't know what to say or do, and they're able to accept that.

So don't be too quick to judge humor harshly. It's often a very healthy, honest thing.

-Joe-

(and I think Anne Frank would have liked the drum joke)

Subject: RE: BS: How long after can one make jokes about
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 18 Nov 09 - 07:05 PM

Believe it or not I have never seen 'Waiting for Godot' although all the accounts I hear confirm that it is exceedingly good. Although regret is something that I do not do - too negative and bugger all you can do about past events anyway - I do wish I had gone to see the version with Mike Harding and Bernard Wrigley at the Octogon, Bolton, when I had chance. One day I will get round to to seeing it and, whoever is in it, I am sure I will enjoy it:-)

I must admit at being surprised at the connection with 'One foot' and 'Waiting for God' - apart from the cranky old men. I can see now, from what I have heard, how it could have inspired a lot of the tragi/comic offerings and, like many other things, it was in turn inspired by earlier offerings. Cutting back to the point - There is probably nothing new in anything. Including black comedy. It has always happened. It always will. Live with it!

Oh - and another ludicrous point about the Franks drum kit. Would a Jewish family swap presents at Christmas?

Cheers

DeG

Subject: RE: BS: How long after can one make jokes about
From: GUEST,999
Date: 18 Nov 09 - 07:17 PM

Tuesday, December 24, 1940

Tuesday, December 21, 1943

Both above dates are the start of Chanukah which lasts for eight days. It's entirely possible there were exchanges of gifts on December 25.

Subject: RE: BS: How long after can one make jokes about
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 18 Nov 09 - 07:29 PM

True, 999, and my Daughter-in-laws family who are Jewish do swap presents and have a tree at Christmas as well - Just wondered if it was common practice. Anyhow, academic now as I just re-read the joke and it says she got a drum-kit for her birthday, not Christmas, so apologies for adding further confusion.

Nice Christian Joke for you.

Jesus hanging on the cross, muttering.

Peter says 'What is it, Lord?'

Jesus continues muttering.

Peter gets a ladder and bribes the guards to let hin climb up for fear of missing his leaders wisdom

'I am here, Lord. What is it you want of me?'

Jesus replies in a whisper

'Peter... Peter...














You can see our house from here.'

DeG

Subject: RE: BS: How long after can one make jokes about
From: catspaw49
Date: 18 Nov 09 - 07:31 PM

Alternate punch line:

"You can see right down Mary's dress from here."


Spaw

Subject: RE: BS: How long after can one make jokes about
From: catspaw49
Date: 18 Nov 09 - 07:32 PM

Wow....I got the 100 and didn't realize it.

Spaw

Subject: RE: BS: How long after can one make jokes about
From: kendall
Date: 18 Nov 09 - 07:41 PM

Joe, too bad you didn't get to Helen Schneyers memorial service. Lots of humor, black as night and wicked funny. Just as she would have had it.

Subject: RE: BS: How long after can one make jokes about
From: Lox
Date: 18 Nov 09 - 08:16 PM

"A media outlet shouldn't encourage people to laugh at real victims of monstrous crimes. And it shouldn't suggest to an audience of millions that it's proud of having done so. Nor should we leap to its defense when it does."

Quite right.

Fortunately in this case no victims of a crime are being laughed at, only a fictitious scenario.

So that's that then.


Dave the Gnome,

The version I saw starred Rik Mayall, Adrian Edmondson and Christopher Ryan of young ones fame.

Christopher Ryan was the star of the show and brought the house down.

Subject: RE: BS: How long after can one make jokes about
From: SINSULL
Date: 18 Nov 09 - 09:06 PM

There was a scene in the movie "The Diary Of Anne Frank" where they exchanged gifts for a holiday - can't remember if it was Christmas or Channukah. I do remember that Anne had collected cigarette butts from a man in the group over the year and re-rolled the leavings into cigarettes for him. Very clever and very kind - I remember him being a pain in the ass. She had equally clever gifts for everyone else. I don't recall this being in the book but it has been years since I read it.

Subject: RE: BS: How long after can one make jokes about
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 18 Nov 09 - 10:51 PM

Wow, what a lot of additions to this thread overnight — so this is going back a bit.

Lox - I did get what you meant by 'pignant' you know: if you recall, I described it as an 'adventitiously felicitous TYPO' or some such — but it was, alliterativly with 'patronising', one of the triggers for my regrettable use of 'pillock'.

The point to draw attention to is that my title for this thread [I was OP you will rediscover if you check] is interrogative. I am concerned with the questions of how much time may lapse — & additionally, by obvious implication, as to whether there are any topics which can never be appropriate subjects for humour. I, as will have been gathered, would rubricate Anne Frank as one such — a real person who exemplified a defiant survival spirit in the most adverse and intolerable of situations who nevertheless came to a tragic end. But not everyone will agree. And I do remember saying once to my late wife, "Here's a joke I just made up. If I had been born in Warsaw instead of in London then I shouldn't be a theatre critic, I'd be a lampshade", & she was horrified & exclaimed "How can you make a joke of such a thing?!" (she had no Jewish connections). So who is always consistent at that? But Anne Frank nevertheless remains out of bounds so far as I am concerned. But if there were no disagreements there would be no threads on any forums, would there?

Subject: RE: BS: How long after can one make jokes about
From: Ebbie
Date: 18 Nov 09 - 11:43 PM

Lol The Jesus joke made me laugh. Not the Mary one though. Sorry, Spaw. Jesus would not have said 'Mary', for one thing- he would have said 'Mom', thereby bringing in a totally different element. Plus the 'looking down a blouse' reference doesn't resonate with me. A guy thing, you think?

Subject: RE: BS: How long after can one make jokes about
From: catspaw49
Date: 18 Nov 09 - 11:59 PM

Well geeziz Ebbie, here I was trying to sugar coat it a bit and you gotsta' come along and mess me up.   First, I kinda' like your Mary Mother of God idea......that's really kinky! But I was referring to Mary Magdalene who is oft depicted and reputed to have been at the foot of the cross.

And second, the actual punch line was/is: "I can see Mary's tits from here."

Are you happy now?

LMAO......that's what I get for trying to tone myself down......(:<))


Spaw

Subject: RE: BS: How long after can one make jokes about
From: Jeri
Date: 19 Nov 09 - 12:16 AM

Michael, I have more pleasant things to do than try to find agreement with someone who's clearly only trying to manipulate people into further argument.

Ebbie, different Mary, I think.

Subject: RE: BS: How long after can one make jokes about
From: Jeri
Date: 19 Nov 09 - 12:18 AM

Boy, did I ever take too much time editing, or what!?

Subject: RE: BS: How long after can one make jokes about
From: GUEST,999
Date: 19 Nov 09 - 02:21 AM

Jesus' mother, his aunt, Mary the wife of Clopas, and Mary Magdalene. John stood nearby.

See John 19:25

Subject: RE: BS: How long after can one make jokes about
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 19 Nov 09 - 02:42 AM

'Michael, I have more pleasant things to do than try to find agreement with someone who's clearly only trying to manipulate people into further argument.'

Then why shove yr clumsy & inept put-in into the thread in the first place, Jeri? Thoroughly exercised as to where you are coming from.
What the point of any thread except 'further argument'?

Still, enjoy yr 'pleasant things'; aren't you just the lucky one!

Subject: RE: BS: How long after can one make jokes about
From: Smedley
Date: 19 Nov 09 - 03:34 AM

The really interesting point at stake here is the idea, proposed by MtheGM in his 10.51 post, about whether anything is "out of bounds" for humour.

I would say that no, nothing is, but that doesn't mean people don't have the right to challenge jokes that they think cross a boundary. Such boundaries, however, are never fixed and solid. That's what makes humour so intriguing.

Subject: RE: BS: How long after can one make jokes about
From: Gervase
Date: 19 Nov 09 - 04:11 AM

I can only assume that those who wring their hands in anguish at black humour and bad taste are lucky enough never to have been involved in the sort of unpleasant situations the jokes celebrate.
The times when I've been involved nasty situations involving lots of bits of dead people, mutilated children, slaughtered innocents and the like have been the times when the jokes have come thick and fast. They're a safety valve - without black humour we'd all go mad with the sheer unremitting horror and unfairness of existence. It helps us keep buggering on in the face of enormity.
A po-faced attitude is quite common, though. I was in hospital a month or so back having suffered a heart attack. It was a worrying time for the family, and as they all clustered round the bed where I was covered in wires and gadgets I tried to defuse things with some off-colour remarks. My son's girlfriend was absolutely disgusted, I discovered later. Apparently she wanted to hit me for making jokes about sick people and nurses, a though I had somehow demeaned the holy nature of the hospital. It was quite cathartic telling her to fuck off when I was discharged.

Subject: RE: BS: How long after can one make jokes about
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 19 Nov 09 - 04:46 AM

We all tell and hear jokes in bad taste, but somehow we expect better from the BBC.
Another joke they allowed was someone impersonating the queen and saying" I'm so old my pussie is haunted."
One they pulled a couple of weeks ago, when biscuits were in the news, was when a presenter called two other contributors, one black and one white, their own custard cream and chocolate hobnob.

Subject: RE: BS: How long after can one make jokes about
From: kendall
Date: 19 Nov 09 - 06:57 AM

That was disgusting! I have great respect for the Queen; she has a tough gig.

Subject: RE: BS: How long after can one make jokes about
From: Lighter
Date: 19 Nov 09 - 09:28 AM

Anne Frank jokes are quite the fashion in some circles. Search the Web and see. The one about the drum is pretty mild.

So it isn't just one BBC joker - it's a phenomenon, one that unfortunately coincides with the whole "Holocaust didn't happen" thing. Both seem to have gotten underway around 1980.

Nobody will be going to Hell (I hope) just for telling an Anne Frank joke, but it's barbaric to defend their hilarity and boast of appreciating it.

Sick and dying people of course have the right to laugh at their own condition for as long as they can. But when the fat and happy take time to defend, in ingenious ways, Gestapo-style humor at the expense of a dead girl, something's wrong with the picture.

Subject: RE: BS: How long after can one make jokes about
From: catspaw49
Date: 19 Nov 09 - 10:19 AM

Ya' need to change your screen name to "Heavier."

Like I said, if you don't like it, that's okay. I like it, but that's evidently not okay. We're not going to change are we? Feel free to be offended and stop lecturing those who found the joke funny.

Spaw

Subject: RE: BS: How long after can one make jokes about
From: Smedley
Date: 19 Nov 09 - 11:24 AM

Well said, spaw.

'Gestapo-style humour' indeed - good grief.

Subject: RE: BS: How long after can one make jokes about
From: SINSULL
Date: 19 Nov 09 - 12:06 PM

"So it isn't just one BBC joker - it's a phenomenon, one that unfortunately coincides with the whole "Holocaust didn't happen" thing. Both seem to have gotten underway around 1980."

No as I posted above, I remember Holocaust jokes in the 50s among school children. Nor is it a phenomenom - black humor has been around forever.

I am with Spaw on this one. Feel free to be offended. Your lectures are falling on deaf ears just as are our explanations of black humor.

Subject: RE: BS: How long after can one make jokes about
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 19 Nov 09 - 12:11 PM

I heard the joke, and I wasn't offended, I also wasn't amused. Mainly because I don't know about the story of Anne Frank.

Subject: RE: BS: How long after can one make jokes about
From: SINSULL
Date: 19 Nov 09 - 12:30 PM

Come closer John so I can smack you this side of your head!




Before anyone complains - that was humor.

Subject: RE: BS: How long after can one make jokes about
From: Smedley
Date: 19 Nov 09 - 12:31 PM

She was a terrible drummer. Drove the neighbours crazy.

Subject: RE: BS: How long after can one make jokes about
From: Ebbie
Date: 19 Nov 09 - 12:36 PM

A different Mary? OK, never mind. :)

Subject: RE: BS: How long after can one make jokes about
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 19 Nov 09 - 12:36 PM

I told you the rhythm method didn't work

Subject: RE: BS: How long after can one make jokes about
From: Smokey.
Date: 19 Nov 09 - 01:04 PM

It was a tuba when I first heard it, but I think it'll be a banjo as soon as I get the opportunity to recycle it.

I entirely agree with the BBC's stance.

Subject: RE: BS: How long after can one make jokes about
From: Jeri
Date: 19 Nov 09 - 01:10 PM

Here I thought the 'three Marys' had something to do with Henry VIII. Who knew there was a trend?

Subject: RE: BS: How long after can one make jokes about
From: catspaw49
Date: 19 Nov 09 - 01:23 PM

No Jeri.....I think Lighter/Heavier will suggest its a phenomenom...........

Spaw

Subject: RE: BS: How long after can one make jokes about
From: Bupkes
Date: 19 Nov 09 - 01:26 PM

In the film The Aristocrats (Penn & Teller?), they show Gilbert Gottfried telling 9/11 jokes two weeks after it happened. They had a Friars Club roast of Hugh Hefner at the time, in New York City, and they almost cancelled, but went on with it because, well, people needed a break from the gloom by then. So Gilbert Gottfried (he's the voice of the Aflac duck in tv commercials, by the way) begins his shtick by saying something like, "I had a little trouble getting hereÉ all the flights from LA had a stopover at the Empire State Building." Nervous, tentative chuckles, and someone in the back yells, "Too soon!", meaning too soon after the World Trade Center to tell jokes, but Gottfried pretends it meant he had delivered the punch line too quickly, so he tells the joke over again slowly. Gets a good laugh this time, so throwing what little restraint to the wind, he tells a long, detailed version of the title joke, "The Aristocrats", an extremely dirty joke shall we say, and people are laughing uncontrollably at his nerve and how they'll have to "clean it up a little for family television", "Ya think?!", and asking someone if missed a part, should he repeat it slowly?; they're laughing so hard they're "rolling on the floor, coughing up blood".

OK, here's a YouTube clip of the Aristocrats joke at the Roast. With Spanish subtitles to help you.
[Definitely over the top, vulgar language, be advised.]
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dnbHGmd8XNE&feature=related
or another excerpt of GG from the film, a more philosophical exegesis of the joke,
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hD1dc74QMPM

Subject: RE: BS: How long after can one make jokes about
From: jacqui.c
Date: 19 Nov 09 - 01:45 PM

From: MtheGM - PM
Date: 16 Nov 09 - 04:20 PM

I should be careful if I were you, if you don't want the kick in the bollox from her husband that you would have got from me if you had been there & laughed...


That would make me laugh to see you try as SINSULL is female and therefore doesn't possess, in a physical way, the aforementioned part of the anatomy.

I'll admit to having a sick sense of humour - I'm married to Kendall and need it to survive. I can't change the way my sense of humour works and that black humour has helped me through some pretty difficult situations. Luckily, I'm with a group of people who have the same outlook - we got rid of the others.

Subject: RE: BS: How long after can one make jokes about
From: Lox
Date: 19 Nov 09 - 01:52 PM

Oh God ...

... The aristocrats ...

... Now you're stirring up a hornets nest ...



Lighter,


Yes I see your point - that laughing at a joke which doesn't victimize the Franks is synonymous with holocaust denial and a Gestapo mentality.

Of course while I see it, I also think it is utter nonsense.



MtheGM,

I take your last post as sincere, accept your previous apology, and offer my own apology for the acidic tone of my line of argument.


Smedley .... ROFL!

Subject: RE: BS: How long after can one make jokes about
From: SINSULL
Date: 19 Nov 09 - 02:12 PM

Yeah, Jacqui. I thought to bring that up but decided that anyone who was appalled at a joke but felt free to threaten physical harm on someone for laughing was not worth the effort.

Subject: RE: BS: How long after can one make jokes about
From: Lox
Date: 19 Nov 09 - 02:19 PM

"Here's a joke I just made up. If I had been born in Warsaw instead of in London then I shouldn't be a theatre critic, I'd be a lampshade"


I would stand by your right to make this comment.

Though I wouldn't have described it as a joke, but rather a truthful observation sweetened with humour to make it easier to savour.


By the way, I got off easy with the "palestinian suicide bomber in colditz" image.

It wasn't a good example of what I wanted to say.


A better example might have been Winnie the Pooh in a bondage basement ...

Or Uri Geller bending spoons at an AA meeting ...

you get the picture.

Subject: RE: BS: How long after can one make jokes about
From: Smokey.
Date: 19 Nov 09 - 02:28 PM

Careful, Lox - you don't want to go upsetting those Poohists..

Subject: RE: BS: How long after can one make jokes about
From: M.Ted
Date: 19 Nov 09 - 03:10 PM

With all due respect, Lighter, it wasn't the jokes that killed Anne Frank--

Subject: RE: BS: How long after can one make jokes about
From: M.Ted
Date: 19 Nov 09 - 03:14 PM

Oh, and, by the way, Lighter, if you'd bothered to read the article, the Nazis hated humor, and arrested, tried, and executed many people for telling jokes. So tell me now, who is more like the Gestapo, the person who makes the jokes, or the person who ostracizes them?

Subject: RE: BS: How long after can one make jokes about
From: Amos
Date: 19 Nov 09 - 03:21 PM

Gestapo-style homor? Wait--the Gestapo were the runs who rounded her up, not the ones who made humorous jokes about her.

I have every respect for what the Franks went through--and millions of others during the war--but to be able to make a joke about something grim is not disrespectful of tragedy, its a vote of confidence in resilience and renewal. There is such a thing as being too precious, ya know.


A

Subject: RE: BS: How long after can one make jokes about
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 19 Nov 09 - 04:26 PM

Yes, Lox, both my last post & original apology to which it reverted quite sincere; & thank you for your reciprocal one. Really no point falling out over such matters, indeed.

Subject: RE: BS: How long after can one make jokes about
From: Ebbie
Date: 19 Nov 09 - 05:17 PM

"I can't change the way my sense of humour works and that black humour has helped me through some pretty difficult situations. Luckily, I'm with a group of people who have the same outlook - we got rid of the others." Jacqui C

Dare I say that the Morse's and their neighbors eat well? :)

Subject: RE: BS: How long after can one make jokes about
From: Donuel
Date: 19 Nov 09 - 06:06 PM

Gilbert Godfrey told the first 9-11 joke just 3 weeks after in NYC!
Although people were rolling on the floor in uncontrolled emotional release they were all yelling "TOO SOON!"

I'm with Spaw regarding the discussion of the appropriatness of humor.
I find people who claim to have a sense of humor, don't.
People who explain why something is funny, aren't.
And defining the rules for humor, isn't worth a dried snot with 23 hairs in it.

Subject: RE: BS: How long after can one make jokes about
From: SINSULL
Date: 19 Nov 09 - 06:20 PM

Donuel,
Everyone has a Sense of Humor. Everyone finds something amusing. As with music and political parties, tastes differ...often rabidly.

Subject: RE: BS: How long after can one make jokes about
From: Lox
Date: 19 Nov 09 - 06:25 PM

"People who explain why something is funny, aren't."

With the exception of me!

There is definitely something funny about me ...

... hang on ... let me rephrase that ...

Subject: RE: BS: How long after can one make jokes about
From: Donuel
Date: 19 Nov 09 - 06:25 PM

Umm, of course, present company excluded.

Subject: RE: BS: How long after can one make jokes about
From: Matt_R
Date: 19 Nov 09 - 06:58 PM

Anne Frank was not "murdered" at Auschwitz. She died of typhus at Bergen-Belsen.

Subject: RE: BS: How long after can one make jokes about
From: Matt_R
Date: 19 Nov 09 - 07:00 PM

And she wasn't arrested by the Gestapo either.

Subject: RE: BS: How long after can one make jokes about
From: catspaw49
Date: 19 Nov 09 - 07:52 PM

Geez Matt......Thanks for the factual data. But she DID get the drum kit didn't she?

Spaw

Subject: RE: BS: How long after can one make jokes about
From: Matt_R
Date: 19 Nov 09 - 08:36 PM

"Dutch drummer girl" sounds like a nickname for an STD.

Subject: RE: BS: How long after can one make jokes about
From: Smokey.
Date: 19 Nov 09 - 11:01 PM

German banjoist, I think you'll find..

Subject: RE: BS: How long after can one make jokes about
From: Ebbie
Date: 19 Nov 09 - 11:09 PM

"On this day in 1944, a German-born Jewish girl and her family, who had been hiding in German-occupied Holland, are found by the Gestapo and transported to various concentration camps. The young girl's diary of her time in hiding was found after her death and published. The Diary of Anne Frank remains one of the most moving testimonies to the invincibility of the human spirit in the face of inhuman cruelty."

http://www.history.com/this-day-in-history.do?action=Article&id=6540

But I expect you are right= Anne Frank was not murdered at Bergen-Belsen- had she avoided becoming ill, she would have been just fine. We should just lighten up.

Subject: RE: BS: How long after can one make jokes about
From: Smokey.
Date: 19 Nov 09 - 11:59 PM

No-one is trying to make light of the Franks' experience, Ebbie.

They were found by the intelligence branch of the SS after a tip-off - not the Gestapo.

Subject: RE: BS: How long after can one make jokes about
From: catspaw49
Date: 20 Nov 09 - 12:22 AM

Did she have her drum with her?

Spaw

Subject: RE: BS: How long after can one make jokes about
From: Smokey.
Date: 20 Nov 09 - 12:33 AM

I'm tellin' yer, it was a banjo - hence the tip-off.

Subject: RE: BS: How long after can one make jokes about
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 20 Nov 09 - 12:47 AM

Ho-ho-ho. Tee-hee-hee!

Now please shut·the·fuck up!

Subject: RE: BS: How long after can one make jokes about
From: Ebbie
Date: 20 Nov 09 - 01:04 AM

Not a tip-off, not a drum at all. A tiple belongs to the bodhran.

Subject: RE: BS: How long after can one make jokes about
From: Smokey.
Date: 20 Nov 09 - 01:08 AM

Shhhh.... He's trying to sleep..

Subject: RE: BS: How long after can one make jokes about
From: Lox
Date: 20 Nov 09 - 03:47 AM

Ebbie is right to comment.

MattR wishes to correct us on the manner of Anne Franks Death.

"Anne Frank was not "murdered" at Auschwitz. She died of typhus at Bergen-Belsen."

All well and good except for two things.

1. If he had read the thread a bit more thoroughly he would have noticed that Anne Frank dying of typhus has already been established.

2. To say that she wasn't murdered but died of typhus is a bit like saying that ted bundy's victims weren't murdered but merely died of head trauma.

Deliberately imprisoning a person in conditions such as those under which Anne Frank contracted Typhus, and then allowing her to die untreated, constitutes nothing less than murder, only that her murder was all the more cruel and drawn out as the Nazi's wanted her to feel more than anything else that she was vermin.


Interesting paradox - pedantic yet ignorant.

Subject: RE: BS: How long after can one make jokes about
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 20 Nov 09 - 04:17 AM

There have always been jokes about death, illness, deformity.... "Did you hear the one about the Christian Brother and the 10-year-old-child....."?
Whether these jokes are acceptible, tastelss, funny... is a matter of judgement, personal taste, sense of humour....
The problems arise when these jokes are used as part of a larger agenda; racism is a pretty common example of how humour can be used to debase and dehumanise in order to persecute a racial, religious, social group.
I might laugh (momentarily) at the Princess Di jokes, but laughing (ie perpetuating) racist jokes is giving centre stage to the holocust perpetrators and apologists - read BNP (thanks but no thanks)
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: How long after can one make jokes about
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 20 Nov 09 - 04:21 AM

MtheGM

You have got a good sense of humour after all! :-)

DeG

Subject: RE: BS: How long after can one make jokes about
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 20 Nov 09 - 04:24 AM

Thanks DeG _ out of interest - what brought that on?

Subject: RE: BS: How long after can one make jokes about
From: Lox
Date: 20 Nov 09 - 07:16 AM

Jim,

The format of Joke that I consider inexcusable is that which says something like -

Q. Why do (insert scapegoat) have (insert caricature)?

A. Because they (insert slander)


So for example, Roy Chubby Brown says,

"I know not all moslems are terrorist, but why are all the terrorists Moslem?"

His crowd cheers because he's "got the Guts" to say what "everyone knows is true".

For a minute he gives them the freedom to hate Moslems without fear of being told off by the "PC Brigade".

They laugh at the "Irony".

In the process he encourages people to be mistrustful of moslems and to distinguish them from all other races religions etc as being potential terrorists.


The butt of the joke is the moslem. The crowd join together in their derision and scorn for both Moslems and those "bloody PC lot" who say "go on about racism" etc.

The point of the joke is to highlight that moslems are "not like us" etc.

The result of the joke is that Roy Chubby Browns crowd will go home and alienate Moslems after the show.


To determine whether a joke is racist/anti semitic/sexist/homophobic etc you have to ask three questions.

1. What is the focus of the joke - what is it that you are being invited to laugh at?

2. Is somebody being singled out and victimized?

3. if so, hhow is this being done?



If you cannot explain how someone is being victimized then you can't really claim that they are being victimized.

You need to be able to say what it is about somebody that is being laughed at, what lie is being told etc.

Someone might feel victimized by a joke, and some jokes are so "borderline" that this is more than justified. However, it is important to be sure exactly what the joke teller is saying before passing judgement on them or the joke.



It's a simple formula.



In light of previous threads, I've done a lot of thinking about Satire recently and I've tried tto think of a way of describing it that is clear and easy to understand for those who aren't familiar with it.

Obviously, no-one is under any obligation to enjoy satire and if it doesn't float your boat then tough on the satirist and on you.

However, it could be useful to be able to recognize it in a general way.

Here goes

Lets start with a couple of dictionary definitions.



.         the use of irony, sarcasm, ridicule, or the like, in exposing, denouncing, or deriding vice, folly, etc.
2.         a literary composition, in verse or prose, in which human folly and vice are held up to scorn, derision, or ridicule.
3.         a literary genre comprising such compositions.
Origin:




I would go further though and say the following.



There are different types of satire.

The two that we are most familiar with are political satire and social satire.

Political satire parodies and caricatures political views and positions.

So if I were satirizing Roy Chubby Brown, I would focus on the clumsy unintelligent way he abuses his victims.

e.g. in ridiculing his insinuation that moslems are all closet terrorists I would refer to recognizable stereotypes of Moslems and I would parody and exaggerate the kind of joke that sought to promote those stereotypes.

I would therefore caricature Roy Chubby Brown.

To parody his jokes and satirize him, I have to portray a gross and unpleasant sense of humour. I have to exaggerate how unpleasant he is.

Doing this believably, so that the point is made and has a bearing on reality, involves sticking in, in context, some unpleasant jokes about moslems.

If I were writing a novel and one of my characters was a homophobe, you would expect him to say homophobic things.

If I wanted him to be believable, i would need to make his conversation believable.

If I wanted you to hate him I would have to exaggerate the crassness of his views.

I would take the standard bullshit like "homosexuals are all closet paedophiles" that people like Ake spout, and I would exaggerate it so that you believed it and reacted to the character.

For the reader to attribute the views of the character to the writer would be the result of either bad satire on one hand, or non-comprehension on the part of the reader.

A writer cannot be blamed for the attitudes of his characters.

Not all Satire is in books, some is spontaneous and fleeting. A Stand up comic might take on a persona for the length of time that it takes him to make an offensive comment.

So in the voice and style of Roy Chubby Brown I might say "why do Arabs wear tea towels on thier heads? ... cos they need to wash more than us ... ha ha ha ha ha" ... I might then take out a dirthy handkerchief and wipe the sweat off my brow after laughing with such mirth, and then do the same to my armpits before blowing my nose in a way that demonstrates me to be foul and unpleasant ... just as Roy Chubby Brown is.

However, i would not want to be too obvious or it wouldn't work.

Satire must be believable or it has no teeth. It must reflect reality or it has no political purpose.


Anyway - that'll have to do for now.

Subject: RE: BS: How long after can one make jokes about
From: SINSULL
Date: 20 Nov 09 - 08:04 AM

The Oklahoma bombers were not Moslem. so he got his facts wrong as well.

Subject: RE: BS: How long after can one make jokes about
From: jacqui.c
Date: 20 Nov 09 - 09:10 AM

George Washington was a terrorist from some points of view.:o)

Subject: RE: BS: How long after can one make jokes about
From: SINSULL
Date: 20 Nov 09 - 10:09 AM

You'll never pass the Citizen's Exam with an attitude like that.
REMEMBER:
"Father, I cut down that cherry tree."

Subject: RE: BS: How long after can one make jokes about
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 20 Nov 09 - 12:18 PM

Now while we're at it. How come there are so many shows mocking the inadequates of this world? Shows like The Office for instance.
So because the character in a comedy like that, is not identifiable, by ethnicity, by religion, or by skin colour; does that make it OK to mock socially inadequate people?
As long as they're not black, moslem, Jewish, Polish, or any other identifiable group, that is!

Discuss

Subject: RE: BS: How long after can one make jokes about
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 20 Nov 09 - 01:08 PM

Lox,
Thanks for that, will read it through fully later, but it appears to be as thoughtful an analysis of satire as I have come across in a long time.
I believe that humour is one of the most potent ways of putting across a message (good or evil) - the systematic ridiculing and sterotypiing of the Jews by the Nazis paved the way into the gas chambers for 6,000,000 of them and enabled the majority of the German people to either pass by on the other side or pretend it wasn't happening.
In 1968 a friend and I were somewhat aimlessly hitching across central Europe and found ourselves (unintentionally) in Czechoslovakia on the day they re-opened the border following the Soviet invasion. In Prague we were befriended by a group of students who found us somewhere to stay, (in extremely difficult circumstances) showed us the cheapest places to eat and regaled us with stories of recent events (including photographs).
They also told us literally dozens of jokes on the situation, some crudely anti-Russian to the point of racism, but others incredibly sophisticated and powerful; it is these that remained in my memory down the years rather than the factual accounts.
A couple of quick ones.
A secret service agent in Prague walked into a bar and, as the place was quiet, got chatting to the barman.
At one point the barman said, "What's the difference between the East and the West?"
"I don't know".
"In the East we have freedom of speech, in the West they have freedom AFTER speech".
The SS man laughed and said, what's the difference between this bar and you?"
"I don't know".
"This bar will be here tomorrow; you are coming along with me."
And
A secret service man shared a flat with a teacher in Brno.
One day the teacher came home, thoroughly depressed, threw himself into a chair and said, "I can't take any more of this paranoia. "Today I asked my class. "Who assasinated the Archduke Ferdinand?" and Pavel Hasek put his hand up, leapt to his feet and said "It wasn't me sir"".
The secret serviceman poured him a drink and packed him off to bed telling him not to worry about it.
A few days later the SS man said to the teacher "By the way, Hasek did assasinate the Archduke Ferdinand; he confessed under interrogation".
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: How long after can one make jokes about
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 20 Nov 09 - 01:34 PM

I am reminded of the old Soviet 'Radio Armenia' jokes - Like: "Have you heard Pravda is running a competition for a political joke? The first prize is 10 years."

Subject: RE: BS: How long after can one make jokes about
From: Amos
Date: 20 Nov 09 - 01:51 PM

Humor about anything is a way to rise above it. Being so stuck to a loss or a sad state of affairs that one cannot tolerate any humor about it is a sorry state indeed as it closes the door on one way back to sanity.

A

Subject: RE: BS: How long after can one make jokes about
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 20 Nov 09 - 02:00 PM

Try telling that to the blinkered PC brigade Amos

Subject: RE: BS: How long after can one make jokes about
From: catspaw49
Date: 20 Nov 09 - 02:05 PM

Maybe Amos could give them all a drum instead............

Spaw

Subject: RE: BS: How long after can one make jokes about
From: Lox
Date: 20 Nov 09 - 02:10 PM

"Now while we're at it. How come there are so many shows mocking the inadequates of this world? Shows like The Office for instance."

The office is an example of social satire.

It lampoons recognizable cultural stereotypes in a way that allows us to laugh at how grotesque they are on the one hand, yet feel affection for the characters on the other.

This balance is important because the office parodies human characteristics which WE ALL POSSESS and as a result we see ourselves in the characters portrayed.

We either feel uncomfortable and cringe and hate it, or we feel uncomfortable and cringe and burst out laughing.

The key to creating social satire is in parodying recognizable cultural stereotypes and the key to appreciating social satire is in recognizing them.

The other major factor that makes the office so good is how close to reality it is and also how well acted it is.

Another show that does this well is peep show.

Subject: RE: BS: How long after can one make jokes about
From: Lox
Date: 20 Nov 09 - 02:15 PM

Oh I forgot ... it helps to be able to laugh honestly at yourself.

Jim I loved the second joke. Awesome!

Subject: RE: BS: How long after can one make jokes about
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 20 Nov 09 - 03:03 PM

"Try telling that to the blinkered PC brigade Amos "
I always remind myself that the opposite to "political correctness" is "political incorrectness" - no competition I'm afraid.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: How long after can one make jokes about
From: Amos
Date: 20 Nov 09 - 03:17 PM

Rumpity-tumm-tumm, guys...brumpity-tum-tum... here ya go.



A

Subject: RE: BS: How long after can one make jokes about
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 20 Nov 09 - 03:37 PM

Sorry - posted that last one in a hurry - Mastermind had just started.
Can I explain.
I certainly am no supporter of political oversensitivity, particulary after witnessing the disappearence of many good traditional songs following a campaign by feminists to purge the scene of so-called 'sexist' material.
However, I do believe there to be a middle ground in most subjects (with the possible exception of racism).
I find the term PC has the effect of polarising any subject, making debate extremely difficult.
If it's any comfort I als belive do- badders to be the opposite of do-gooders - again, no competition.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: How long after can one make jokes about
From: Matt_R
Date: 20 Nov 09 - 04:17 PM

[quote]2. To say that she wasn't murdered but died of typhus is a bit like saying that ted bundy's victims weren't murdered but merely died of head trauma.[/quote]

Compared to being gassed by industrial-strength roach killer or being eviscerated or any of the other number of excruciating and grisly methods of extermination used in the concentration camps, typhus doesn't sound much like murder in comparison.

Subject: RE: BS: How long after can one make jokes about
From: SINSULL
Date: 20 Nov 09 - 04:26 PM

Murder is murder Matt. Whether I cut your limbs off one at a time over a few weeks or chop your head off quickly, it is murder.

Subject: RE: BS: How long after can one make jokes about
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 20 Nov 09 - 04:27 PM

Sorry Lox, doesn't matter which way you cut the cake, it's mockery, and I was always told thatit was wicked to mock the afflicted

Subject: RE: BS: How long after can one make jokes about
From: Lox
Date: 20 Nov 09 - 04:32 PM

Ok John,


Who does 'the office' mock?


And how?


And Matt,


Thanks for the recommendation - I hope I die of warm cuddly Typhus now that you have made it seem so attractive.

Subject: RE: BS: How long after can one make jokes about
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 20 Nov 09 - 05:10 PM

Social inadequates, the sort of people we have all met in our lives, particularly in a work scenario. Where we would never dare laugh out loud at them the way we do the guy portrayed in The Office.
If you wouldn't laugh at someone like that to their face, why do it when they are parodied on TV?

Subject: RE: BS: How long after can one make jokes about
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 20 Nov 09 - 05:59 PM

Thanks DeG _ out of interest - what brought that on?

It was -

Ho-ho-ho. Tee-hee-hee!

Now please shut·the·fuck up!

I love it, but small things do amuse small minds.

:D (eG)

Subject: RE: BS: How long after can one make jokes about
From: Lox
Date: 20 Nov 09 - 06:05 PM

John,

The Character 'David Brent' is an interesting one.

He has no idea in his head that he is anything less than funny, dynamic, intelligent, exciting and a real winner.

He is the kind of person who might be embarrassed by "social inadequates".

He would restrain his laughter at such people, but his instinct would be to laugh at them nonetheless.

He would recognize no "socially inadequate" characteristics in himself but rather wriggle out of admitting his own flaws with a combination of denial and projection.

In fact, he is very insecure and overconscious of how he is perceived.

Ultimately, he proves to be a nice guy underneath.

Its something most people can relate to in themselves - I wonder if you see any parallels with your life?

This is ultimately the result of his own insecurities.

Subject: RE: BS: How long after can one make jokes about
From: Gervase
Date: 20 Nov 09 - 06:09 PM

Shh! David Brent is a regular poster on Mudcat. Under many different names.

Subject: RE: BS: How long after can one make jokes about
From: Lox
Date: 20 Nov 09 - 06:24 PM

Wouldn't that be interesting - if it turned out that half the people on here were Ricky Gervaise characters being written out before our eyes ...

Subject: RE: BS: How long after can one make jokes about
From: Matt_R
Date: 20 Nov 09 - 08:35 PM

[quote]Thanks for the recommendation - I hope I die of warm cuddly Typhus now that you have made it seem so attractive. [/quote]

I hope so too, I'm tired of your posts.

The state of North Carolina is not giving the H1N1 vaccine to people in prison and jail. One prisoner gets swine flu and dies. Is that murder?

Subject: RE: BS: How long after can one make jokes about
From: Jeri
Date: 20 Nov 09 - 08:53 PM

It's stupid and it's inviting multiple lawsuits. Influenza spreads through shut-in populations like wildfire and it's normally recommended they get the vaccine.

Is creating conditions that will make multiple PREVENTABLE deaths unavoidable if a contagious disease is introduced 'murder'? I think it's quibbling about language, but hey, we've quibbled about less monumental things.

Subject: RE: BS: How long after can one make jokes about
From: catspaw49
Date: 20 Nov 09 - 09:03 PM

Did you see the Santa Claus Union or whatever is demanding prority for H1N1 shots? They got a point though.........

How about for the prisoners that don't get the shot, we give them all a drum!

Spaw

Subject: RE: BS: How long after can one make jokes about
From: Smokey.
Date: 20 Nov 09 - 09:03 PM

I've never been, but nevertheless it seems unfair to compare North Carolina to Nazi Germany.

Subject: RE: BS: How long after can one make jokes about
From: Lox
Date: 20 Nov 09 - 09:33 PM

"One prisoner gets swine flu and dies. Is that murder?"

If the prison authourities know he will die without medical attention, deny him clothing and medical attention anyway and leave him to rot in an open wooden hut with no door, in the snow surrounded by decomposing bodies as part of a deliberate policy of imposing circumstances in which the chances of survival are nil, then yes I would call it murder.

As for the H1N1 virus,

I've had it and so has my daughter and we are both fine. Neither of us had the vaccine either.

We had access to medical attention, food, warmth etc.

I didn't even need any antivirals as my immune sytem (as in about 99% of cases) was able to adapt quickly and fight the virus off with a minimum of fuss.

North Carolina Prison inmates have access to comparable medical attention, clothing, shelter and warmth.

I think they are right not to succumb to the Panic aver H1N1

There is a subtle difference between life in a modern prison, and the realities Anne Frank endured and having read your posts so far I don't expect you to get it straight away, however I think its worth mentioning.


I'm afraid your comparison is as facile and feeble as your little put down.

Subject: RE: BS: How long after can one make jokes about
From: catspaw49
Date: 21 Nov 09 - 12:16 AM

Hmmmm......and since Lox put it so well, now I think maybe we oughta' give the Santas a drum instead of the prisoners..........or maybe we could just get more drums.


Spaw

Subject: RE: BS: How long after can one make jokes about
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 22 Nov 09 - 05:02 AM

This is a bad joke thread, not a drumkit thread...

:D

Subject: RE: BS: How long after can one make jokes about
From: catspaw49
Date: 22 Nov 09 - 11:11 AM

Thank you Dave! Finally!

See, I've been beating the drun kit to death (pardon the pun) all over the threads and no one til you has said "ENOUGH."   I love annoyance humor. Take something that is funny once and then beat it to death and beyond til everyone wants to beat you to death but do their best to be polite and not tell you to shut the fuck up.

Its a form of the humor that Andy Kaufman loved and though I detested him I was also a bit impressed as well. Instead of the audience laughing the comedian was laughing at us........The real master at this in the TV medium is Seth McFarlane who does "Family Guy."   He has a hit show and yet aggravates the hell out of some of his even most loyal viewers by beating a joke or a simple line into the ground.

I'm trying to be nominated to the Seth McFarlane Hall of Fame for Annoying Humor. I love ya' Dave and just because its you, I'm sending a drum!

Spaw

Subject: RE: BS: How long after can one make jokes about
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 22 Nov 09 - 12:00 PM

Catspaw, I wonder if you have any idea how BORING you are? Are you proud?

Subject: RE: BS: How long after can one make jokes about
From: catspaw49
Date: 22 Nov 09 - 12:23 PM

LMAO.....I love it!!!!!

You can have TWO drums...........LOLOLOL.................Perfect!


Spaw

Subject: RE: BS: How long after can one make jokes about
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 22 Nov 09 - 01:12 PM

Drums boring? I bet you are one of them anti-bohdran people as well!

Spaw - make it a tom-tom. Less postsage and get you there quicker...

DeG

Subject: RE: BS: How long after can one make jokes about
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 22 Nov 09 - 01:34 PM

Thank you for personalising the discussion Lox.
It's nice to know people still revert to the personal insult, when their windy diatribes run out of steam.

JM

Subject: RE: BS: How long after can one make jokes about
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 22 Nov 09 - 01:34 PM

I didn't say drums were boring — I use them for various purposes — just that Catspaw was, which seemed to have gratified him immeasurably. There, as HumptyDumpty would have remarked, is glory for you [by which, in case you have forgotten, he meant a nice knockdown argument].

Subject: RE: BS: How long after can one make jokes about
From: Lox
Date: 22 Nov 09 - 02:07 PM

John,

"Its something most people can relate to in themselves - I wonder if you see any parallels with your life?"

Is this what you call a personal insult?


I am suggesting that to be able to relate to these characters is normal as they possess characteristics that most people share.

That after all is the point of social satire.

I asked you whether you relate to the character "David Brent". I had already implied that to do so would be to consider yourself to be among the ranks of most normal people.

I take it from your response that you see yourself as being a cut above the rest of humanity as to be accused of being on their level is an insult.

Or maybe you only consider yourself to be above "social inadequates".

I'd love to know how you establish who is and isn't a "social inadequate".

Back to your last post ...

... You are right - resorting to personal insults is a poor substitute for reasoned argument.

So is accusing people of insulting you where there is no evidence of any insult except that which you have inferred yourself.


I presume that your own "windy Diatribe" has ground to its own halt or you might have tackled my point rather than taking offence from the suggestion that you might not be perfect.

Maybe admitting to having imperfections would make you feel "socially inadequate"

It's ok - I'll restrain myself from laughing.

Subject: RE: BS: How long after can one make jokes about
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 22 Nov 09 - 02:26 PM

We are all unique.
Some of us make short posts for instance :)
So you don't have any answer to my theory then?

Subject: RE: BS: How long after can one make jokes about
From: Lox
Date: 22 Nov 09 - 03:15 PM

"So you don't have any answer to my theory then?"

What theory?

I've just scrolled back thorugh this thread and you have posted no theory.

Subject: RE: BS: How long after can one make jokes about
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 22 Nov 09 - 04:20 PM

Well that kept you out of mischief for a bit then ;)

Subject: RE: BS: How long after can one make jokes about
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 22 Nov 09 - 04:20 PM

Sorry Terry

Subject: RE: BS: How long after can one make jokes about
From: Gurney
Date: 22 Nov 09 - 05:14 PM

I once took out a library book which was an analysis of humour.
About halfway through, I came to the conclusion that either I didn't understand the analysis or that the author didn't understand humour.
Possibly both.

Anyone who thought that the Anne Frank joke wasn't in good taste would be well advised to NEVER join the Royal Navy. The standard comment in that service, when someone is killed or maimed, is 'He shouldn't have joined if he can't take a joke!'
As several have commented, humour is sometimes a coping mechanism.
And totally subjective.

Subject: RE: BS: How long after can one make jokes about
From: GUEST,999
Date: 22 Nov 09 - 05:21 PM

We know there are many similarities between Lincoln and Kennedy's assassinations. One more has just surfaced.

A week before Lincoln was shot, he was in Monroe Maryland.
A week before Kennedy was shot, he was in Marilyn Monroe.

Subject: RE: BS: How long after can one make jokes about
From: kendall
Date: 22 Nov 09 - 08:22 PM

"So many Christians, so few Lions." (Utah Phillips)

Is that funny?

Subject: RE: BS: How long after can one make jokes about
From: Smokey.
Date: 22 Nov 09 - 09:16 PM

It's all about delivery..

Subject: RE: BS: How long after can one make jokes about
From: Dave MacKenzie
Date: 23 Nov 09 - 06:34 AM

As a Christian, I'd say yes.

Subject: RE: BS: How long after can one make jokes about
From: Smedley
Date: 23 Nov 09 - 08:09 AM

It's foolish to compare North Carolina with Nazi Germany.

The Nazis were *much* better dressed.

Subject: RE: BS: How long after can one make jokes about
From: catspaw49
Date: 23 Nov 09 - 10:36 AM

........and they had drums.

Spaw

Subject: RE: BS: How long after can one make jokes about
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 23 Nov 09 - 10:47 AM

There was Spaw, Spaw
Oh what a baleful bore
In the Stores
In the Stores...

Subject: RE: BS: How long after can one make jokes about
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 23 Nov 09 - 10:52 AM

As Anne Frank's dad may have said

"Enough with the drums already..."

:D

Subject: RE: BS: How long after can one make jokes about
From: Amos
Date: 23 Nov 09 - 10:58 AM

OK,kids, fun's over. Everybody ship all their drums and drumkits back to Spaw.



A

Subject: RE: BS: How long after can one make jokes about
From: catspaw49
Date: 23 Nov 09 - 10:59 AM

Let me apologize

Spaw

Subject: RE: BS: How long after can one make jokes about
From: SINSULL
Date: 23 Nov 09 - 01:22 PM

Santa,
May I have a drum kit for Christmas? I have been a good little girl and no one is annoyed by my whale tambourine anymore.

SINS

Subject: RE: BS: How long after can one make jokes about
From: Lox
Date: 23 Nov 09 - 05:49 PM

Well John, as you were obviously only joking all along ...

Subject: RE: BS: How long after can one make jokes about
From: Gurney
Date: 23 Nov 09 - 07:56 PM

Whale tamborine?