BS: (football) Shame on Henry!!

Subject: RE: BS: (football) Shame on Henry!!
From: ard mhacha
Date: 05 Dec 09 - 04:06 PM

Look out for the con-man supreme, I have just seen Real Madrid beat Almeria in a Spanish League game, Real were awarded a penalty when Ronaldo was supposedly tripped by the Almeria `keeper. Plain to see on TV that Ronaldo dragged his left leg across the goalie and conned the ref into giving Madrid a penalty.
Ronaldo`s tame effort was saved by the Almeria keeper a Real forward following up scored.
This was another reason for having the two goal-line officials, the dive was plain to see but not by the ref, this con-man will continue this ploy throughout the World Cup, time for the n-men in Fifa to come into the real world.

Subject: RE: BS: (football) Shame on Henry!!
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 04 Dec 09 - 10:04 PM

==="Old-fashioned" - is that supposed to be necessarily a bad thing? ===

No, McG — I was simply responding to your assertion that offside was so much part of the MODERN game, as if that somehow made it indispensable; and that any change would bring us into a 'post-modern' situation. I couldn't quite frankly, make heads-or-tails about what you were on about there.

'Old-fashioned' might not intrinsically be a pejorative term; but my point was [& is] that offside has served its purpose, no longer fulfilling the function for which it was first constructed all those years ago, but leading to other abuses like the concerted move upfield to create the offside-trap; & has therefore long since turned from being a useful aid to the game to being a drag upon it. High time at least to TRY OUT an alternative.

Subject: RE: BS: (football) Shame on Henry!!
From: Rafflesbear
Date: 04 Dec 09 - 06:58 PM

So what about the Ice Hockey version ?

for the uninitiated there is a line across the pitch forming an end zone into which the attackers cannot pass until the puck (ball) has preceded them. Once past the line the attackers have free movement unless the ball comes out of the end zone. The attackers then have to vacate the zone and start again while the midfield try to hold on to the ball until they are out

easy for the linesman, it stops goal hanging and works well in Ice Hockey

(thread drift down to me - sorry)

Subject: RE: BS: (football) Shame on Henry!!
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 04 Dec 09 - 03:54 PM

"Old-fashioned" - is that supposed to be necessarily a bad thing?

Subject: RE: BS: (football) Shame on Henry!!
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 04 Dec 09 - 02:44 PM

===But without an offside rule it wouldn't be "the modern game" any more. I suppose you could call it a "postmodern game - and goalhanging would inevitably be a significant part of it.=====

On the contrary — it's the idiotic offside rule, formed back when the game was new and the only technique was to boot upfield & hope for the best, which is now the most OLD-FASHIONED aspect of the game to survive. Getting rid of it, and so necessitating new defensive techniques to obviate goal-hanging risks, would inevitably enliven & modernise the game.

Subject: RE: BS: (football) Shame on Henry!!
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 04 Dec 09 - 02:29 PM

...'goal hanging', which is in any event minimal in the modern game.

Well, it can't really exist, because the goals wouldn't count. But without an offside rule it wouldn't be "the modern game" any more. I suppose you could call it a "postmodern game - and goalhanging would inevitably be a significant part of it.

Subject: RE: BS: (football) Shame on Henry!!
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 04 Dec 09 - 02:21 PM

ard mhacha is absolutely right. The 'offside trap' has always been much more of a threat to the integrity of the game than the risk of 'goal hanging', which is in any event minimal in the modern game.

Subject: RE: BS: (football) Shame on Henry!!
From: ard mhacha
Date: 04 Dec 09 - 01:47 PM

Some rules in football when changed proved how stupid the old rule were, League games and a good few Cup finals were played with 11 players against 10 due to injury.
When the substitute rule was introduced I can still hear the die-hards lamenting the change, not too mant complaints now, change can be good for the game and the boring offside law is one change I would like to see, defenders getting praise for moving forward as one man to slow the game down, boring, get it changed.

Subject: RE: BS: (football) Shame on Henry!!
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 04 Dec 09 - 10:05 AM

Techniques would obviously develop to obviate the 'goalhanger' tendency, I believe. I can see the point of the offside rule; but feel it introduces more irritation & frustration into the modern game than it is worth. I should like to see an experimental season played without it, just to see whether it actually made any significant difference.

Subject: RE: BS: (football) Shame on Henry!!
From: Arnie
Date: 04 Dec 09 - 09:32 AM

I agree with McGrath on this one. In the days when I played a bit of football, 'goal-hanger' was an insult used against players who never tracked back to win the ball but always hung around the penalty area waiting to pounce. Of course, the offside rule meant that the goal-hanger had to move upfield if the defenders moved upfield. Without offside, one or two goal-hangers could simply linger around the opposing goalie and wait for the ball to be kicked long for them to collect. Not a very edifying spectacle and I don't think it would improve the game at all.

Subject: RE: BS: (football) Shame on Henry!!
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 04 Dec 09 - 08:57 AM

Indeed, McGrath - the notorious Law Of Unintended Consequences must always be allowed for; but one can always restore the status quo in such a case if found the change doesn't work [look how, on these very threads, that supposed improvement intro'd by Joe just a few weeks ago to speed up communication simply got in everybody's way & has been quietly dropped with no fuss]. I don't think anyone would disagree that the, fairly recent, basic changes to the pass-back-to-goalkeeper procedures have vastly improved the game.

Subject: RE: BS: (football) Shame on Henry!!
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 04 Dec 09 - 08:21 AM

No - handball isn't the same as carrying the ball.

The point of introducing an offside rule was to stop the practice of "sneaking" - hanging around the goal mouth to score from a long ball from the other end of the pitch.

Gaelic Football manages very well without an offside rule, but it's a very different game. Any rule change changes how a game is played in ways that may never have been envisaged by the people introducing it.

Subject: RE: BS: (football) Shame on Henry!!
From: Lox
Date: 04 Dec 09 - 08:16 AM

I agree with MthGM about the offside rule.

I would certainly be very interested to watch a game without it.

That's how I used to play as a kid anyway ...

Subject: RE: BS: (football) Shame on Henry!!
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 04 Dec 09 - 07:33 AM

They did. And it's called 'Rugby'.
(Or American Football if you live left-side of the Ditch).

Subject: RE: BS: (football) Shame on Henry!!
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 04 Dec 09 - 07:12 AM

They could abolish the ban on handball as well.

Subject: RE: BS: (football) Shame on Henry!!
From: ard mhacha
Date: 04 Dec 09 - 06:31 AM

Moscow Dynamo were the forerunners of the great Austrian and Hungarian teams of the early 1950s.
My interest was aroused when a schoolboy when our local men returned from working in England, some of them had seen the Dynamo team play Chelsea and Arsenal and were amazed at the skill of the Dynamo side, the British press at the time were far from pleased by the fact that their top sides strengthened by internationals from other clubs were being taught the arts of the game by the Russians.
The Dynamo team were undefeated in their 4 match tour, leaving behind memories of a great football side, the offside law didn`t deter the Russians.
The book `Passovochika by David Downing covers their visit and the controversy they left in their wake. `

Subject: RE: BS: (football) Shame on Henry!!
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 03 Dec 09 - 01:55 PM

Thanks, ard mhacha. Those with long memories might also recall the just postwar visit to UK of Moscow Dynamo. Soviet teams at the time didn't have an offside rule, so it was suspended in all their matches - much was made of the political & ideological implications of their exceptionally skilful short-passing technique, rubricated by some as emblematic of socialist co-operation, with which an offside rule would not have been compatible. Anyhow, the point is, that the games were played with no offside; and, as Boris Becker remarked in another context, "Nobody died."

Subject: RE: BS: (football) Shame on Henry!!
From: ard mhacha
Date: 03 Dec 09 - 01:10 PM

MtheGM, I totally agree, the offside rule is anther ancient law that should have been removed years ago. The Scottish FA experimented with this in a pre-season tournament in the 1960s, it worked very well unfortunately the FA in England didn`t go along with the idea and another stupid law was retained.

Subject: RE: BS: (football) Shame on Henry!!
From: GUEST,Allan C
Date: 03 Dec 09 - 02:48 AM

"STUC urge Celtic fans to wave Palestinian flags"

Palestinian flags have been waved for some years by certain sections of Celtic fans just as Israeli flags can be seen waved by Rangers fans at Ibrox. Rather than any political thought going into this it is just another way the two tribes can differentiate and hate each other. As if they didn't have enough religious differences - and that is said by a Proddie Celtic supporter! One would have thought folk at the STUC would have more sense.

Subject: RE: BS: (football) Shame on Henry!!
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 03 Dec 09 - 01:06 AM

Better by far to ABOLISH THE OFFSIDE RULE COMPLETELY. It is obsolete in the modern game, which is predicated on the technique of [often short] precision passing, having been intro'd early in the game's history when 'boot it hard upfield & hope for the best' was order of the day; & has now surely outlived its usefulness & original purpose.   It does nothing but lead to disagreement, confusion & frustration. GET RID OF IT, I say again.

Might seem a radical suggestion, but such basic changes not unknown or unprecedented — look at the very recent pass-back-to-goalkeeper rules which have become so quickly & universally accepted & integrated into the game, much to everybody's benefit.

Subject: RE: BS: (football) Shame on Henry!!
From: Rafflesbear
Date: 02 Dec 09 - 05:27 PM

Think I may have mixed up two separate points there

1 - TV replay for offside is unworkable - better to resolve the rule by making it possible for the linesmen to get it right

2 - TV replay for cheating is undesirable - better to foster a non-cheating ethic

Subject: RE: BS: (football) Shame on Henry!!
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 02 Dec 09 - 05:05 PM

Offside is confusing, and mistakes are made, but blatant cheating by players isn't generally involved.

Subject: RE: BS: (football) Shame on Henry!!
From: Rafflesbear
Date: 02 Dec 09 - 04:52 PM

When you have the offside rule which requires the linesman to look at the person kicking the ball in his own half at the same time as he is looking at a player's position relative to the opposition on the edge of the penalty area - when the subject is chewed over by pundits who have the benefit of slow motion and freeze frame and still they can barely agree and when you introduce a subjective judgement about whether he is interfering with the play or not(who was it who once said "if he's not interfering with the play what is he doing on the pitch") are you really going to hold up the game for review by camera?

Better the Ice Hockey offside rule and better that we teach our children not to cheat and live by the principle ourselves

I play volleyball and from now on I'm going to own up to every net touch

Subject: RE: BS: (football) Shame on Henry!!
From: ard mhacha
Date: 02 Dec 09 - 01:36 PM

So there you have it, the dinosaurs in FIFA refuse to let common sense be a part of the game,
http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/football/internationals/8391237.stm

Subject: RE: BS: (football) Shame on Henry!!
From: GUEST,Tommy Lo
Date: 02 Dec 09 - 11:34 AM

More madness, Scottish trade unions called on supporters of Celtic to wave Palestinian flags at their Europa League home match on Wednesday against Israel's Hapoel Tel Aviv in "solidarity with suffering Palestinians."

Celtic insists it has always been a club which welcomes fans regardless of gender, age, race, religion, politics or ability, most of its supporters come from Glasgow's large Catholic community.


European soccer's governing body UEFA said in a statement: "UEFA is fully aware of the planned demonstration outside the ground before the UEFA Europa League match Celtic FC v Hapoel Tel-Aviv FC and we have been in close contact with both clubs and the local authorities about closely monitoring the situation."

Subject: RE: BS: (football) Shame on Henry!!
From: The Sandman
Date: 26 Nov 09 - 01:32 PM

I thought roy keane was a bitteen off Beam,partly right about mcshane[full back]but an irrelevant comment,if the ball is handled it is illegal,never mind whether the full back is competent or not.
roy keane will be getting his cards soon if he doesnt do a bit better himself.

Subject: RE: BS: (football) Shame on Henry!!
From: ard mhacha
Date: 26 Nov 09 - 05:20 AM

Believe me McGrath there is as much cheating in GAA as any other sport, when the honour of the parish is at stake and your County is out there trying by any means to win, you would cheat your mother.
We have been told down the years that sport is the great healer, and that it brings people together, it certainly brings people together, and then all hell breaks loose

Subject: RE: BS: (football) Shame on Henry!!
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 25 Nov 09 - 07:49 PM

I think I'd sooner tolerate a situation where though cheating doesn't always get found out, it is seen as wrong, rather than one where there are an army of officials and video surveillance in a handful of occasions and an attitude throughout the whole game (where those things won't be present) that players are entitled to get away with whatever they can, and that it's a bit admirable to do that.

Cheating will always be there - my impression from the matches I've seen (not enough sadly) that there is in fact less of it in the Gaelic games than in professional football. But my point there wasn't that being amateur in itself reduces the cheating, but that amateur games are less likely to be able to provide the anti-cheating officials and technology. (The GAA is a bit different here, because that's amateur sport with a mass following and with a fair bit of money.)

Subject: RE: BS: (football) Shame on Henry!!
From: ard mhacha
Date: 25 Nov 09 - 04:23 AM

McGrath I have been around the greatest amateur sport in the world for donkeys years namely the GAA and cheating was par for the course, I seen umpires behind the goals clearly cheating, this from my own team.
It goes on in all sports and while the two extra assistants will be a big help, the simulators[I prefer divers] will continue to con the ref.

Subject: RE: BS: (football) Shame on Henry!!
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 24 Nov 09 - 01:01 PM

"mutes the instant celebrations" That would strengthen the case for technology.

Added technology and extra referees both imply the same thing - the people playing the game, and their managers, are cheats. That's true enough, I suppose - the pity is that the attitude that it's OK to do anything you like against the rules, if you can get away with it, inevitably seeps down into the amateur game, where of course there won't be the technology or the extra officials to keep the cheating in check.

Subject: RE: BS: (football) Shame on Henry!!
From: GUEST,Allan C
Date: 24 Nov 09 - 11:17 AM

"the score in 1966 would still have been 3-2"

That isn't really so as the entire end to the match would have been completely different. Likewise with the England v Argentina game. Anything changing like England's thrid goal against the Germans or Maradona's first against England, being disallowed would be bound to change the rset of the game in one way or another.

Saying that if they bring technology in to it I hope they don't go the same way as Rugby Union. The refs often seem unwilling to give a try without going to the technology unless it is blindingly obvious. You hear them saying "is there any reason for me not to give that try?" and it slows things down and mutes the instant celebrations etc. It would be much better just to have technology interfere only in real special circumstances when the refs have made a glaring mistake or obviously missed something crucial.

Subject: RE: BS: (football) Shame on Henry!!
From: ard mhacha
Date: 24 Nov 09 - 05:06 AM

Blatter has called an extraordinary meeting of Fifa`s executive committee to deal with the fall-out of the match in Paris.
It is understood that a replay of the France v Ireland game is not on the cards.
One possible outcome could be a proposal to fast track Uefa`s current experiment in the Europa League of having an extra assistant behind each goal-line in time for next summers World Cup finals.

The fact that they are going to discuss this sensible solution gives the fans some hope that common sense will prevail, and this ruling will become law.

Subject: RE: BS: (football) Shame on Henry!!
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 23 Nov 09 - 07:36 PM

But the score in 1966, even without that goal, would have still been 3-2, Wolfgang.

Subject: RE: BS: (football) Shame on Henry!!
From: Connacht Rambler
Date: 23 Nov 09 - 06:09 PM

I was angry at Henry's handjob, too.

++++++Newsflash+++++

THE BLAME GAME
Ireland 9    France 1


Now please let's all get over it.

Subject: RE: BS: (football) Shame on Henry!!
From: Lox
Date: 23 Nov 09 - 05:48 PM

And yesterdays news is good for nothing more than chip wrappings.

Livid at the time - over it now.

I wish France luck and hope nobody else is unsporting about it.

The ref made a bad decision, and possibly with FIFA's blessing/encouragement ...

but its all over now.

Subject: RE: BS: (football) Shame on Henry!!
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 23 Nov 09 - 02:57 PM

Of course context is everything in this kind of thing. In the Premier League match on Sunday between Spurs and Wigan there was an even more blatant handball by a player scoring a goal, and nobody gives a damn about it. Well, with Wigan losing 9-1, it'd need a hard heart to begrudge them that single goal, even if it wasn't strictly legal.

Here's a piece on this from a Scottish TV site, full of mock sound and fury about it, as a way of commenting on the row about Henry's handball. "Spurs fans to contest greatest injustice in history of football?"

Subject: RE: BS: (football) Shame on Henry!!
From: GUEST,Falco
Date: 23 Nov 09 - 02:55 PM

Evra wants a Statue to Henry - Well perhaps the Irish­ should build one as well and place it outside the­ French Embassy in Dublin. Henry would make a good­ Gaelic Footballer. I hope all opposition fans give­ France the treatment they deserve in South Africa.

The­ time has come for rule 5 to be rewritten to include the­ use of Video Technology and a 5th official. It works in­ Rugby, Cricket, Tennis and Ice Hockey. They say the­ Camera never lies. A communication system, and just a­ few Camera angles, and just a few seconds would have­ chalked the French goal off. Henry would have been­ yellow carded. Same for the Divers who are ruining the­ game.

WAKE UP FIFA AND ENTER THE 21st CENTURY.

You­ are the richest Sport, with huge revenues, not to­ mention a few Jerks in Suits. OK, no replay for Ireland­ but there is no excuse for not introducing­ Technology.

Otherwise the Cheats will just continue to­ prosper and ruin the game for those of you that pay­ good money to watch the so called Role­ Models. Big meeting to take place to look at the events of last week.

Subject: RE: BS: (football) Shame on Henry!!
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 23 Nov 09 - 01:11 PM

Replay only three times (or five) per game for each team's captain and no one else to request. >>>

If you had read the thread before rushing to post, Wolfgang, you would have found I had made exactly this suggestion 18 posts back.

Subject: RE: BS: (football) Shame on Henry!!
From: Wolfgang
Date: 23 Nov 09 - 01:07 PM

Third goal in the 1966 final from a camera more or less exactly at the goal line (link to Youtube video)

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: (football) Shame on Henry!!
From: Wolfgang
Date: 23 Nov 09 - 12:58 PM

Too much "Instant replay" would be a mixed blessing. It would make the game often more boring and much longer.

What if a wrong throw-in decision leads to a goal 2 min later?
Should an ongoing action be stopped for replay or not?
Could each team ask for as many replays as they feel like?
If replay would only come during interruptions, should all of the preceding 5 min of a boring game be replayed, just in case?

Most games of football are without the option of replay, so that would make replay only a mayor leagues option.

I see only two possible changes I could agree with:
(1) Two additional goal-linesmen (the "handball" would have been spotted)
(2) Replay only three times (or five) per game for each team's captain and no one else to request. If the decision is upheld the other team gets a freekick.

Wolfgang (who'd like to see a replay of the '66 final)

Subject: RE: BS: (football) Shame on Henry!!
From: GUEST,Chris
Date: 23 Nov 09 - 12:36 PM

Send Jedward from 'X' Factor to France to do a series of concerts. If that doesn't even things up, nothing will.

Subject: RE: BS: (football) Shame on Henry!!
From: ard mhacha
Date: 22 Nov 09 - 03:45 PM

Sorry that Denis Wise hand ball was against Turkey.

Subject: RE: BS: (football) Shame on Henry!!
From: ard mhacha
Date: 21 Nov 09 - 05:11 PM

McGrath it will never happen, Henry will get off without any penalty, he will start the World Cup along with the rest of the French team. Anyone remember a few years ago Dennis Wise palming the ball into the goal in Poland, and eliminating them from the World Cup?,
The fact that this recent incident has been seen and discussed world wide may stir Fifa into action.
I keep repeating the most blatant form of cheating was Fifa changing the rules a couple of weeks before the quarter finals and seeding them to assure that the stronger nations would go through, apart from Slovenia eliminating Russia, three out of four was a coup for Fifa.
The Swedish linesman should have seen that two French forwards were off side before the"goal", well Fifa did appoint the Swedish officials.

Subject: RE: BS: (football) Shame on Henry!!
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 21 Nov 09 - 04:48 PM

Of course they do, accept use of such evidence after the events. That wouldn't change the result, but there's no reason the penalty for people proved to have cheated can't be severe enough to serve to act as a deterrent. And a points penalty could be imposed on the team for that matter.

So Henry could be banned from the World Cup - and France could be made to go forward with a couple of points handicap.

Subject: RE: BS: (football) Shame on Henry!!
From: ard mhacha
Date: 21 Nov 09 - 03:59 PM

The tabloids here are trying to stir up anti-French feeling, this is nonsense, only a few head-cases are taking the French to task. Roy Keane is full of hate and this was an excuse for him to get his boot into the Football Association of Ireland, blaming the goalkeeper was ridiculous, Shay Given the Irish keeper is one of the top keepers in the world.
I don`t agree with the Irish politicians putting their nose in, getting votes would be their main objective.
The protests should be finished , no amount of moaning will change the result.
The only good thing that may come out of all of this is to use video evidence or the two extra officals as are used in the European League, the old die-hards in Fifa will take some shifting, we wait in hope.

Subject: RE: BS: (football) Shame on Henry!!
From: Neil D
Date: 21 Nov 09 - 01:51 PM

Thierry Henry himself has said there should be a replay.

Subject: RE: BS: (football) Shame on Henry!!
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 21 Nov 09 - 01:30 PM

Or for that matter, a poll in Ireland, if the handball that took them through had been by an Irish player...

Subject: RE: BS: (football) Shame on Henry!!
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 21 Nov 09 - 01:28 PM

An imponderable, McGrath — but I do know that, if I were polled in such a situation I should vote for a replay; & I don't think I should be atypical.

Subject: RE: BS: (football) Shame on Henry!!
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 21 Nov 09 - 01:22 PM

One interesting statistic that should get in the craw of people getting anti-French on the basis of this - it is reported that 82 per cent of French people polled thought that the right thing to do would be to play the match again.

That won't happen - but I wonder whether the same would have been true if it had been a poll of English people in circumstances where England had got through in the same way. I somehow doubt it.

Subject: RE: BS: (football) Shame on Henry!!
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 21 Nov 09 - 09:35 AM

"Only a game", sez you. Don't forget Bill Shankly — "Football isn't a matter of life and death — it's much more important than that."